6-10 ............. Who is to blame?

[PackerBlues]

The Packers were 13-3 last season, and now stand at 5-7. Who is to blame?

Don't even throw the injury excuse out there, cause that excuse never meant shit to anyone prior to this year.

Maybe we should blame it on the punter. :roll:

[retailguy]

It is you. You're to blame. You should fire yourself.

edit - If you'd have given the "damn" it would have been ok. I suppose you threw your lucky socks away too.

[PackerBlues]

It is you. You're to blame. You should fire yourself.

edit - If you'd have given the "damn" it would have been ok. I suppose you threw your lucky socks away too.

Well, the rebuilding process must be over with since Favre got kicked to the curb....... and if the rebuilding process is over with, than this must be the team that Thompson meant to put on the field this year........ and if this is the team that Thompson was content to give us this year.......

Yeah, it must be my fault! :lol:

[run pMc]

Blame lady luck. Last year there were a few games they probably should have lost. This year fortune is smiling on the other team.

Injuries certainly play a factor, but every team has them. That's where roster depth counts.


Well, the rebuilding process must be over with since Favre got kicked to the curb

I assume this is sarcasm...I wasn't thinking Year 1 A.F. (after Favre) would not be without some drop-off in the standings.

Then again, I don't think you can blame the W-L standings all on Rodgers. I think you can blame the D for the CAR loss...and the inability to punch in a TD to go up 35-28.

In general, the run D has been inconsistent, and there hasn't been enough pass rush to pressure QBs.
The OL and DL haven't played as well this year, Barnett was having an off year, and injuries hit some important players (Jenkins, Harris, etc.).

Did the 13-3 overachieve, or is this team underachieving?

[Patler]

Who is to blame? Everyone that is not performing as well as he performed last season. That would include most players on defense except Woodson and Collins (maybe Harris, too). It would include most everyone on kickoff coverage and maybe kickoff returns. Whether it is the players or the coaches fault for the decline in performance, I don't think any of us are in position to judge.

There is more blame to share, but those are the biggies if you must find individuals to blame.

[Bossman641]

The Packers were 13-3 last season, and now stand at 5-7. Who is to blame?

Don't even throw the injury excuse out there, cause that excuse never meant shit to anyone prior to this year.

Maybe we should blame it on the punter. :roll:

Do you get off on this stuff or what?

Injuries, poor coaching and execution on defense and special teams, the punter, the OL, the DL, TT, MM's playcalling in some games, shitty fans like you who would rather see the team lose then win.

[Partial]

Did you really just blame a fan for the losses :D

[LL2]

It is you. You're to blame. You should fire yourself.

edit - If you'd have given the "damn" it would have been ok. I suppose you threw your lucky socks away too.

Well, the rebuilding process must be over with since Favre got kicked to the curb....... and if the rebuilding process is over with, than this must be the team that Thompson meant to put on the field this year........ and if this is the team that Thompson was content to give us this year.......

Yeah, it must be my fault! :lol:

With TT at the helm the Pack are always in a rebuilding process. That's why he trades down in the draft like crazy to get quantity over quality and avoids FA.

M3 should take a lot of the blame and everyone that has anything to do with defense and ST - players and coaches both.

[Bossman641]

Did you really just blame a fan for the losses :D

I'm sick of his shit. This is all he ever does. Anyone who looks at this team and says injuries are not part of the reason is an idiot. Let's see, we're on the 4th string DE, had 3 strong safeties injured yesterday, are missing the MLB and had to shuffle the linebacking corps accordingly, had a RB injured the first half of the year, have had WR's banged up all year, have 2 tackles struggling through games every week. Yea, he's right, injuries have nothing to do with it.

I don't mind talking about losses or where the team struggles. I enjoy it. It is somewhat theurapeutic for me getting other people's input. I like venting and hearing other people vent as well.

He is not interested in any of that. He does one thing - stir the pot.

[sheepshead]

89 penalties for 779 yards and 4 losses by 4 points or less?

first in football by the way.

[CaptainKickass]

I place the blame squarely upon the shoulders of......

The Green Bay Packers.

[sharpe1027]

I blame Frost. He has is no longer a Packer and should be fair game.

[HarveyWallbangers]

DL, penalties, coaching, bad luck

DL

Only 3 teams have allowed more yards/carry.
Only 6 teams have fewer sacks.

Penalties

Most penalty yards in the NFL, by a pretty significant margin.

Coaching

Not a good year for coach Mac. I'm firmly in his corner, but he's had a number of questionable decisions.

Dumb Luck

We've lost mostly close games. We've lost some in heartbreaking ways (missed fumble recoveries yesterday, missed FG by Crosby, didn't win the toss in OT vs. Tennessee). The calls have seemed to mostly go against us. It evens out, but it seems to be one of those years. We've also had injuries. All teams have injuries, but we've had guys nicked up all year.

Call me a homer, but if we can rebuild the DL this offseason, I think we'll have a surprising rebound next year. Our schedule doesn't look incredibly daunting next year. This year, we've only played 2 games against teams with a losing record. Next year, we get Cincinnati, Cleveland, San Fran, St. Louis, Seattle, and Detroit twice.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Call me a homer, but if we can rebuild the DL this offseason, I think we'll have a surprising rebound next year. Our schedule doesn't look incredibly daunting next year. This year, we've only played 2 games against teams with a losing record. Next year, we get Cincinnati, Cleveland, San Fran, St. Louis, Seattle, and Detroit twice.

But if that happens, what will "fans" like PackerBlues have to whine about?

[Patler]

Well, I have given this a lot of thought. Looks to me like the blame lies with Bob Harlan.

Harlan hired Wolf,and Wolf:
-let Vonnie Holiday get away, who is still playing today and would help the DL
-let Hentrich walk, who still punts today and would be better than Frost.
-failed to get a credible OL or Dl player in 1999
-wasted a 1st round pick on Antuan Edwards in 1999, could have taken Patrick Kearney, Dre Bly and a host of others who were available
-wasted a third round pick on Steve Warren in 2000. Should have done better.
-hired Ray Rhodes as coach, necessitating change within a year
-hired as coach and then recommended as GM Mr. Mike Sherman. Had he not hired him as coach, he would not have recommended him as GM. Had he not screwed up with Rhodes, Sherman would never have seen Green Bay.

Wolf screwing up the Rhodes hiring, necessitating the Sherman hiring, resulting in the Sherman elevation to GM caused the following:
-draft screw-ups too numerous to mention
-letting Josh Bidwell leave, a Wolf draft pick who could still be punting today
-DB coach firing pissing of McKenzie leading to his departure.
-mind boggling FA signings and vet resignings making a tight cap situation.

This, of course ultimately lead to the downfall of Sherman as GM. leading to the hiring of TT, and as we all know:
-TT is so tight that he let all-pros and other good players leave
-he refuses to sign free agents that fans want
-he refused to sign FAs that Favre wanted, pissing off Favre
-leading to the Favre annual debacle
-ultimately running Favre out of town.

Of course, if he were here, Favre would have completed every pass, most going for TDs and the Packers would be undefeated.

So yes, it is all Bob Harlans fault. He screwed up by hiring Ron Wolf, which ultimately lead to the Packers record this year.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Fucking brilliant Patler.

Fucking brilliant.

[Partial]

:lol: We need to take out Bob Harlan and make him pay for his incompetence!! :P

[channtheman]

That's awesome Patler! :P

[Pugger]

LOL Patler!! :lol: :lol: I could hear the sarcasm from here.

There is plenty of blame to go around. I suppose if we still had BF we might have 2 more wins but QB is not the problem here. I know it sounds like excuses when you mention injuries, but all of these walking wounded have decimated our defense and subsequently our special teams. We have guys on ST who should be on the practice squad (I see we had to pluck 2 more fellas from that group to have enough guys with a pulse to fill out the roster.). :roll: Our D line is a mess - thanks TT - and thus our entire D is reeling. :? Normally if you score 31 points you end up winning that game. :(

[sheepshead]

come on, how can you put two losses on Rodgers?

[Pugger]

Huh? :?: I have NO problem with Rodgers' play this season. He has been everything and more for a first year starter. And if you look at my previous post I said "we might have 2 more wins".

[bobblehead]

Different day, different thread, same crap from the same people.

Who is to "blame". Probably the players on the field who aren't executing.

And Patler, you forgot that when Harlan decided to strip Sherman of the GM title he asked Wolf who to hire...immediately wolf said TT, in an obvious attempt to saddle us with a lousy GM so as not to harm Wolf's legacy.

[sheepshead]

Huh? :?: I have NO problem with Rodgers' play this season. He has been everything and more for a first year starter. And if you look at my previous post I said "we might have 2 more wins".

The only way I can see that is that somehow Rodgers is to blame for two losses and our guy from last year would have won them. They both play the same position. so - what has Rodgers done that 1) lost two game and 2) Brett Favre would have done better or not done based on what you know about Brett Favre?

[sheepshead]

That's what I thought.

[Badgerinmaine]

Well, I have given this a lot of thought. Looks to me like the blame lies with Bob Harlan.

That was outstanding. "For want of the nail....the battle was lost".
Are you sure, though, that we can't find some way to pin this on Dan Devine? :P

[Patler]

That was outstanding. "For want of the nail....the battle was lost".
Are you sure, though, that we can't find some way to pin this on Dan Devine? :P

I was going to blame it on Dominic Olejniczak, who hired Bob Haraln in the first place. But I thought that name might not mean much to a lot of posters here! :lol: :lol:

[MJZiggy]

That was outstanding. "For want of the nail....the battle was lost".
Are you sure, though, that we can't find some way to pin this on Dan Devine? :P

I was going to blame it on Dominic Olejniczak, who hired Bob Haraln in the first place. But I thought that name might not mean much to a lot of posters here! :lol: :lol:

Either way, OUTSTANDING work!

[bobblehead]

Huh? :?: I have NO problem with Rodgers' play this season. He has been everything and more for a first year starter. And if you look at my previous post I said "we might have 2 more wins".

The only way I can see that is that somehow Rodgers is to blame for two losses and our guy from last year would have won them. They both play the same position. so - what has Rodgers done that 1) lost two game and 2) Brett Favre would have done better or not done based on what you know about Brett Favre?

Sheep, you know I'm very happy with rodgers and the decision to go with him, BUT it was atlanta or tampa, I forget. They sent a corner on a naked blitz from the left and Arod never looked, he missed the hot read to hit the reciever the corner left. He DID get drilled in the small of the back and toss a pick that probably cost us the game.

I believe we would probably have another win, maybe two if BF were the QB, woopdeefuckingdoo. he retired, he got replaced, we live with it and move on.

[The Shadow]

It is you. You're to blame. You should fire yourself.

edit - If you'd have given the "damn" it would have been ok. I suppose you threw your lucky socks away too.

Well, the rebuilding process must be over with since Favre got kicked to the curb....... and if the rebuilding process is over with, than this must be the team that Thompson meant to put on the field this year........ and if this is the team that Thompson was content to give us this year.......

Yeah, it must be my fault! :lol:

Actually, I think your mother must shoulder most of the blame.

[PackerBlues]

Call me a homer, but if we can rebuild the DL this offseason, I think we'll have a surprising rebound next year.

Damn Homer, your posts are getting to be almost as good as Patler's. :bow:

The D-line has been a problem for a while now. Pressure on opposing QB's has been nearly non-existant. Considering as how the team was approx. 25 million under the cap before Favre left and perhaps as much as 35 million under the cap after his departure, I would hope that the team can manage to find someone in free agency this coming offseason to bolster the pass rush.

I'm sure that I will catch hell for this, but I have to wonder why KGB was not given as much time to recover from his injuries, as Justin Harrell has been given. I'm sure there may be a number of reasons, but KGB was a proven pass rusher, while Justin Harrell has simply proven that he is injury prone.

[bbbffl66]

Did you really just blame a fan for the losses :D

I'm sick of his shit. This is all he ever does. Anyone who looks at this team and says injuries are not part of the reason is an idiot. Let's see, we're on the 4th string DE, had 3 strong safeties injured yesterday, are missing the MLB and had to shuffle the linebacking corps accordingly, had a RB injured the first half of the year, have had WR's banged up all year, have 2 tackles struggling through games every week. Yea, he's right, injuries have nothing to do with it.

I don't mind talking about losses or where the team struggles. I enjoy it. It is somewhat theurapeutic for me getting other people's input. I like venting and hearing other people vent as well.

He is not interested in any of that. He does one thing - stir the pot.

When Shermy went 4-12 with an injury ravaged team that was all on him though right?

[PackerBlues]

Did you really just blame a fan for the losses :D

I'm sick of his shit. This is all he ever does. Anyone who looks at this team and says injuries are not part of the reason is an idiot. Let's see, we're on the 4th string DE, had 3 strong safeties injured yesterday, are missing the MLB and had to shuffle the linebacking corps accordingly, had a RB injured the first half of the year, have had WR's banged up all year, have 2 tackles struggling through games every week. Yea, he's right, injuries have nothing to do with it.

I don't mind talking about losses or where the team struggles. I enjoy it. It is somewhat theurapeutic for me getting other people's input. I like venting and hearing other people vent as well.

He is not interested in any of that. He does one thing - stir the pot.

When Shermy went 4-12 with an injury ravaged team that was all on him though right?

that 4-12 season was Thompsons start at rebuilding. It would not have mattered who was coaching, the team was destined to suck ass that year.

[bobblehead]

Call me a homer, but if we can rebuild the DL this offseason, I think we'll have a surprising rebound next year.

Damn Homer, your posts are getting to be almost as good as Patler's. :bow:

The D-line has been a problem for a while now. Pressure on opposing QB's has been nearly non-existant. Considering as how the team was approx. 25 million under the cap before Favre left and perhaps as much as 35 million under the cap after his departure, I would hope that the team can manage to find someone in free agency this coming offseason to bolster the pass rush.

I'm sure that I will catch hell for this, but I have to wonder why KGB was not given as much time to recover from his injuries, as Justin Harrell has been given. I'm sure there may be a number of reasons, but KGB was a proven pass rusher, while Justin Harrell has simply proven that he is injury prone.

The reason would be that KGB is making 7 million base and harrell is making less than 2 I believe. KGB is on the wrong side of 30, harrell is barely over 20. KGB was supposedly healthy and still hadn't recovered his burst and wasn't likely too. Harrell is in his second year in the NFL, pretty quick to give up on a guy with a big upside.

I'm not "giving you hell" for this, but if your inference was the TT made a horrible decision because of his ego, your a fool. If it was a legitimate question then I gave you just a couple of legitimate answers.

[sheepshead]

Huh? :?: I have NO problem with Rodgers' play this season. He has been everything and more for a first year starter. And if you look at my previous post I said "we might have 2 more wins".

The only way I can see that is that somehow Rodgers is to blame for two losses and our guy from last year would have won them. They both play the same position. so - what has Rodgers done that 1) lost two game and 2) Brett Favre would have done better or not done based on what you know about Brett Favre?

Sheep, you know I'm very happy with rodgers and the decision to go with him, BUT it was atlanta or tampa, I forget. They sent a corner on a naked blitz from the left and Arod never looked, he missed the hot read to hit the reciever the corner left. He DID get drilled in the small of the back and toss a pick that probably cost us the game.

I believe we would probably have another win, maybe two if BF were the QB, woopdeefuckingdoo. he retired, he got replaced, we live with it and move on.


and in 16 years weve never seen brett do anything like that? Theres too many casual observers out there blaming our record on Favres trade and thus Rodgers performance. I think theres plenty other places to look.

[Bossman641]

Did you really just blame a fan for the losses :D

I'm sick of his shit. This is all he ever does. Anyone who looks at this team and says injuries are not part of the reason is an idiot. Let's see, we're on the 4th string DE, had 3 strong safeties injured yesterday, are missing the MLB and had to shuffle the linebacking corps accordingly, had a RB injured the first half of the year, have had WR's banged up all year, have 2 tackles struggling through games every week. Yea, he's right, injuries have nothing to do with it.

I don't mind talking about losses or where the team struggles. I enjoy it. It is somewhat theurapeutic for me getting other people's input. I like venting and hearing other people vent as well.

He is not interested in any of that. He does one thing - stir the pot.

When Shermy went 4-12 with an injury ravaged team that was all on him though right?

Try again.

I thought Sherman got a raw deal. That entire season was a mess and he was fielding a practice squad team. I always respected what he did for the team and thought he would have been a much better coach if he didn't have GM duties as well.

[bobblehead]

I thought Sherman got a raw deal. That entire season was a mess and he was fielding a practice squad team. I always respected what he did for the team and thought he would have been a much better coach if he didn't have GM duties as well.

I agree with this, but he WAS the GM, and he failed at that. No GM would have kept him on when they took over. A GM has to sink or swim with his choice as the coach, not the one he inherited.

[Bossman641]

I thought Sherman got a raw deal. That entire season was a mess and he was fielding a practice squad team. I always respected what he did for the team and thought he would have been a much better coach if he didn't have GM duties as well.

I agree with this, but he WAS the GM, and he failed at that. No GM would have kept him on when they took over. A GM has to sink or swim with his choice as the coach, not the one he inherited.

No question. If the GM doesn't like the coach or doesn't think he fits the system he has every right to get rid of him. Sherman was a below-average GM. He was very attentive to details and maybe not trusting enough I would say. That can work for a coach, but when you factor in the GM responsibilities I just think it got to be too much for him. If he had never became the GM in the first place and only concentrated on coaching I think he would have been a much better coach.

I don't think Sherman's people skills fit the GM mold very well. IMO the GM has to be a little cold-hearted, and has to delegate responsibilities. Sherman was the opposite. As a coach he got to know his players and cared about them too much when it came to GM responsibilities.

[PackerBlues]

The reason would be that KGB is making 7 million base and harrell is making less than 2 I believe. KGB is on the wrong side of 30, harrell is barely over 20. KGB was supposedly healthy and still hadn't recovered his burst and wasn't likely too. Harrell is in his second year in the NFL, pretty quick to give up on a guy with a big upside.

I'm not "giving you hell" for this, but if your inference was the TT made a horrible decision because of his ego, your a fool. If it was a legitimate question then I gave you just a couple of legitimate answers.

no, I am not inferring anything on TT or his ego in this case, and your answer is a great one. I am curious though as to how bad was KGB's injury? Is he expected to make a comeback? Did he sign with anyone yet?
As far as Harrell, I keep hearing about his upside.......I just have not seen any of it. He has been with the team for a while now, when is it appropriate to give up on what seems to be an injury prone player?

[Patler]

Deleted - This was simply repeating part of what Bobblehead already wrote.

[MOBB DEEP]

BRING BLACK RHODES...!!!

at least he was .500

[Bossman641]

BRING BLACK RHODES...!!!

at least he was .500

Rhodes was a terrible coach. He couldn't get fired quick enough.

[Fritz]

The reason would be that KGB is making 7 million base and harrell is making less than 2 I believe. KGB is on the wrong side of 30, harrell is barely over 20. KGB was supposedly healthy and still hadn't recovered his burst and wasn't likely too. Harrell is in his second year in the NFL, pretty quick to give up on a guy with a big upside.

I'm not "giving you hell" for this, but if your inference was the TT made a horrible decision because of his ego, your a fool. If it was a legitimate question then I gave you just a couple of legitimate answers.

no, I am not inferring anything on TT or his ego in this case, and your answer is a great one. I am curious though as to how bad was KGB's injury? Is he expected to make a comeback? Did he sign with anyone yet?
As far as Harrell, I keep hearing about his upside.......I just have not seen any of it. He has been with the team for a while now, when is it appropriate to give up on what seems to be an injury prone player?

No, I do not believe KGB signed with anyone yet.

[bobblehead]

The reason would be that KGB is making 7 million base and harrell is making less than 2 I believe. KGB is on the wrong side of 30, harrell is barely over 20. KGB was supposedly healthy and still hadn't recovered his burst and wasn't likely too. Harrell is in his second year in the NFL, pretty quick to give up on a guy with a big upside.

I'm not "giving you hell" for this, but if your inference was the TT made a horrible decision because of his ego, your a fool. If it was a legitimate question then I gave you just a couple of legitimate answers.

no, I am not inferring anything on TT or his ego in this case, and your answer is a great one. I am curious though as to how bad was KGB's injury? Is he expected to make a comeback? Did he sign with anyone yet?
As far as Harrell, I keep hearing about his upside.......I just have not seen any of it. He has been with the team for a while now, when is it appropriate to give up on what seems to be an injury prone player?

My guess is that they will keep him through his rookie contract, so 4 years. It is slightly possible they cut him after 3 if they have prospect showing promise and they want the roster spot, but I would think you are stuck with him through next season no matter what.

I don't want to defend the guy too much, as I consistently say guys who don't perform on the field have to be replaced. The problem is that he hasn't had much chance to look bad on the field either so they are going to give a guy like him a chance. This pick is reminding me of the Ron Wolf pick of Antuan Edwards. "he slipped to us because of injury, but man is he gonna be good"

[bobblehead]

BRING BLACK RHODES...!!!

at least he was .500

Rhodes was a terrible coach. He couldn't get fired quick enough.

He was a great defensive coordinator, but he didn't cut it as a coach.

[Gunakor]

BRING BLACK RHODES...!!!

at least he was .500

With a Super Bowl caliber team on both sides of the ball, led by a 29 year old Brett Favre in his prime. That one was tough to swallow. Rhodes was an awful HC.

[LEWCWA]

There is plenty of blame to go around. This defense makes some big plays, but seem to be pretty weak to me. The always seem to be dragging the guy down, instead of standing players up and stopping them in their tracks. The ST has been pretty bad. The offense has been inconsistent to say the least. The play calling has seemed very conservative at the most inopportune(sp) times, and wide open when you think hey just run it down their throat. Specifically--Barnett was a bigger loss than some expected, Hawk seems like an avg linebacker to me, Pop is not good. Everyone on DL has been subpar, even Kampman in my opinion.....Grant isn't the LT type player good Ole Tex made him out to be! Our TE's just suck. And last but not least Mr. Rodgers has let the team down a few times, when he had a chance to put the team on his shoulders at the end of games to win! A great QB will put his team on his shoulders and win a couple....Had he done that just 2 times out of 5 chances this team would be 7-5 and looking to finish strong for the playoffs!

[denverYooper]

There is plenty of blame to go around. This defense makes some big plays, but seem to be pretty weak to me. The always seem to be dragging the guy down, instead of standing players up and stopping them in their tracks. The ST has been pretty bad. The offense has been inconsistent to say the least. The play calling has seemed very conservative at the most inopportune(sp) times, and wide open when you think hey just run it down their throat. Specifically--Barnett was a bigger loss than some expected, Hawk seems like an avg linebacker to me, Pop is not good. Everyone on DL has been subpar, even Kampman in my opinion.....Grant isn't the LT type player good Ole Tex made him out to be! Our TE's just suck. And last but not least Mr. Rodgers has let the team down a few times, when he had a chance to put the team on his shoulders at the end of games to win! A great QB will put his team on his shoulders and win a couple....Had he done that just 2 times out of 5 chances this team would be 7-5 and looking to finish strong for the playoffs!

You're one of those glass half full types, aren't you?

[Tarlam!]

You're one of those glass half full types, aren't you?

Now, that was funny!

[Packers4Ever]

Well, I have given this a lot of thought. Looks to me like the blame lies with Bob Harlan.

Harlan hired Wolf,and Wolf:
-let Vonnie Holiday get away, who is still playing today and would help the DL
-let Hentrich walk, who still punts today and would be better than Frost.
-failed to get a credible OL or Dl player in 1999
-wasted a 1st round pick on Antuan Edwards in 1999, could have taken Patrick Kearney, Dre Bly and a host of others who were available
-wasted a third round pick on Steve Warren in 2000. Should have done better.
-hired Ray Rhodes as coach, necessitating change within a year
-hired as coach and then recommended as GM Mr. Mike Sherman. Had he not hired him as coach, he would not have recommended him as GM. Had he not screwed up with Rhodes, Sherman would never have seen Green Bay.

Wolf screwing up the Rhodes hiring, necessitating the Sherman hiring, resulting in the Sherman elevation to GM caused the following:
-draft screw-ups too numerous to mention
-letting Josh Bidwell leave, a Wolf draft pick who could still be punting today
-DB coach firing pissing of McKenzie leading to his departure.
-mind boggling FA signings and vet resignings making a tight cap situation.

This, of course ultimately lead to the downfall of Sherman as GM. leading to the hiring of TT, and as we all know:
-TT is so tight that he let all-pros and other good players leave
-he refuses to sign free agents that fans want
-he refused to sign FAs that Favre wanted, pissing off Favre
-leading to the Favre annual debacle
-ultimately running Favre out of town.

Of course, if he were here, Favre would have completed every pass, most going for TDs and the Packers would be undefeated.

So yes, it is all Bob Harlans fault. He screwed up by hiring Ron Wolf, which ultimately lead to the Packers record this year.

Beautiful, Patler !!

I think each of us needs to do a print-out here and hang it on the refrig.,

door, any place as a reminder of "whose fault."

[SnakeLH2006]

Let's get to the nuts and guts:

M3 was pretty good last year/no complaints from many on here, yet many conservative/questionable calls have been made. Let's start there. M3 is a good coach, but hasn't won any games with playcalling thus far this year.

TT, well many have been back and forth with this guy, but injuries do come in and relying consistently on 21-24 year olds in a consistent youth-scheme does nothing when injuries set in. I put some blame there.

O-Line...Everyone knew Cliffy and Tauch weren't gonna last forever. But having no real plan to offset some aging (their injuries were gonna come) other than put Moll and Barbre in the starting lineup is not M3's fault but TT's for not maybe getting us at least one deece vet with a solid contract to fall back on...Jet's seemed to have done well with that, even with all the lambasting on their "overspending" in the offseason at OL. This goes back to TT.

RB....Been a huge B-Jack fan, and not so much a Grant fan, and scouts have echoed the fact that Grant is not a gamechanger this year. I made 2 topics on this and again, we are back to square one. Should B-Jack be starting, or is Grant not as good as it looked with Brett last year when no one cared about him?

WR..injuries....but why is JJ not playing more? Don't tell me Jordy is a bigger threat or Ruvell cuz he's ARod's bestest pal. Coaching there, grow some balls M3 and get your best on the field.

DL....lots of injuries....Cullen was man-beastin' for sure....and Kampy is not an All-Pro with no one to help him. Feel sorry for Kamp. But we all were happy to "get rid" of C-Will but this really hurt us when both of our DT's are underwhelming this year vs. last year. This goes on TT...he made that decision to cut C-Will lose.

LB....hard to fault anyone here...lots of injuries.

Secondary....Much better than last year overall. Promote Kurt Schotty? Just kidding...but they've done very well.

ST...very inconsistent. Goes back to coaching.

QB....put this last, cuz it's inflammatory to speak of on here, but seen EVERY game Brett and ARod have ever played and talked at length lately about both with many Packer buddies... Peeps say on here that they have similar stats, so don't blame ARod.. I don't, but he has been very underwhelming in clutch situtations....fumbles, picks, bad passes, but that is to be expected of a 1st year starter. Favre would have done better in the clutch by at least a bit. FACT. But I place no blame on Arod cuz we shouldn't have been in those many situations thus far vs. teams we are better than (yet have lost 4 games by 4 points.).

Snake's Take:

Bottom line...injuries have hurt us, but we still have talent to be a top 10 team by many NFL observers.

If you take the team position by position, M3 has underwhelmed in making poor gametime/late decisions. But he only has the tools given him and I put equal blame on TT for not giving M3 the backups with some experience to put him in a position to win. With Favre traded (tried real hard and did well to exclude him from this post) we should have been ready to be a championship team esp. after last year.

Wow, how underwhelming this team has been, but I still want them to win, even now. Put it on our management and not the players overall. That's how this season has rolled thus far.

[Fritz]

Don't we usually just blame Kurt Schottenheimer?

[Gunakor]

Don't we usually just blame Kurt Schottenheimer?

Can't do it this year, because Shotty's unit is the lone bright spot on the defense. Maybe he finally gets it, or maybe his players finally get it, but his unit has performed remarkably well this season - litany of injuries and all. Shotty isn't the problem in 2008.

[Fred's Slacks]

O-Line...Everyone knew Cliffy and Tauch weren't gonna last forever. But having no real plan to offset some aging (their injuries were gonna come) other than put Moll and Barbre in the starting lineup is not M3's fault but TT's for not maybe getting us at least one deece vet with a solid contract to fall back on...Jet's seemed to have done well with that, even with all the lambasting on their "overspending" in the offseason at OL. This goes back to TT.

But have Moll or Sitton or anyone we've had to throw in there performed badly? I'd have to say our OLine depth has been pretty good. The only problem has been the poor play of the vets Clifton and Wells. Clifton appears to have rebounded but I thought that one other time this year then we saw a relapse in the second MN game. To me it seems they do have a real plan for replacing the old guys. The old guys just aren't done playing yet.

[Packerarcher]

Who is to blame,well that is pretty easy TT all the way as usual. The scary thing is this same thread will be up next year unless TT is gone.

[Lurker64]

Who is to blame,well that is pretty easy TT all the way as usual. The scary thing is this same thread will be up next year unless TT is gone.

At first I thought about pointing out to you that Thompson fielded basically the same squad as he did last year, with the notable exception being at the QB position but Rodgers has played up to and exceeded all expectations and has comparable numbers to the guy who played the position the previous year; the essential differences being things like "schedule" and "injuries", both of which we were in better shape last year than this year; and that really if you're going to be happy with the roster that went 13-3 last year you ought to be happy with this year's roster, since they are essentially the same and if you are happy with the roster, you ought to have no beef with the GM once the season has started.

Then I realized it wouldn't be worth the trouble to type all that because you're just a troll.

Injuries are part of football, so is luck. C'est la guerre. If we played close games like we did last year, we'd be 10-2 or 9-3 at this point.

[Packerarcher]

Who is to blame,well that is pretty easy TT all the way as usual. The scary thing is this same thread will be up next year unless TT is gone.

At first I thought about pointing out to you that Thompson fielded basically the same squad as he did last year, with the notable exception being at the QB position but Rodgers has played up to and exceeded all expectations and has comparable numbers to the guy who played the position the previous year; the essential differences being things like "schedule" and "injuries", both of which we were in better shape last year than this year; and that really if you're going to be happy with the roster that went 13-3 last year you ought to be happy with this year's roster, since they are essentially the same and if you are happy with the roster, you ought to have no beef with the GM once the season has started.



Then I realized it wouldn't be worth the trouble to type all that because you're just a troll.

Injuries are part of football, so is luck. C'est la guerre. If we played close games like we did last year, we'd be 10-2 or 9-3 at this point.

Call me what ever you want but I will be back to remind you that your beloved TT has fucked up again. The man is the downfall to what was once a great football team.

[BobDobbs]

I think that there is more going on than just injuries and schedule. The schedule definitely seems tougher. The NFC South has owned us this year. But, we had the East last year and that's a tough division too. I think the biggest injury has been Jenkins, but Ryan Grant's hamstring could also be number one.

There's more though. We really lack consistency. The play of the lines has been all over the place. And players that performed at a high level last year have not this year. Namely, Ryan Pickett, Nick Barnett, KGB and Atari Bigby. Injuries have been huge, but we were very lucky last year.

Also, people can say that Rodgers has similar stats to Favre, but he has done nothing like what Favre did in the Denver or Kansas City. Granted, he also hasn't done anything like what Favre did in Chicago either.

I think the defense is being figured out, because it is simple and requires a pass rush that we don't have. We've basically lost 3 out of our top 4 pass rushers from last year so that's pretty simple.

On offense the coaching staff has been afraid or unable to open it up. If JJ could start doing damage on underneath routes maybe that would free up the top two to take it deep a little more often. I think that there is a legitimate question as to whether Aaron can threaten the whole field at this point in his career. McCarthy can be creative as evidenced by the second Minnesota game last year, but he has been very predictable this year.

P.S. We've all been watching what has been happening on special teams

[Bretsky]

IMO much of this still goes back to the DL

We let Corey Williams go and brough in nobody remotely capable of doing what he did.........and inside pass rush from the DT position.

Jenkins was playing hurt much of last year and is hurt again. He really didn't produce much last year so I can't just say, "Jenkins is hurt".

KGB coming off surgery; gotta see that and make plans for the possiblity that he does not recover.

You guys can lay the blame; but either the coaches, or TT, had faith in who we have and felt they could pick up the slack.
It's not getting done

Harrell has been just a guy
Many others on that DL are as well
None of these young guys have really stepped up their play

And Vanilla Bob surely maximizes their ability on the defensive sides with his creative schemes that are sure to cause confusion to the opposeing offense :lol:

Bottom line is our personnell at DL do not get it done.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Harrell has been just a guy.

unfortunately he hasn't been that good. He looked like a liability last game.

The real embarassment on that line is Montgomery. Oh my god, he is awful. awful slow, awful weak. The defensive ends other than Kampman are practice squad grade. Jermemy Thompson would be a practice squad guy if he hadn't been drafted high, and he is the cream of the crap.

[Fritz]

Harrell has been just a guy.

unfortunately he hasn't been that good. He looked like a liability last game.

The real embarassment on that line is Montgomery. Oh my god, he is awful. awful slow, awful weak. The defensive ends other than Kampman are practice squad grade. Jermemy Thompson would be a practice squad guy if he hadn't been drafted high, and he is the cream of the crap.

You slay me, Blue Dog.

[MJZiggy]

IMO much of this still goes back to the DL

We let Corey Williams go and brough in nobody remotely capable of doing what he did.........and inside pass rush from the DT position.

Jenkins was playing hurt much of last year and is hurt again. He really didn't produce much last year so I can't just say, "Jenkins is hurt".

KGB coming off surgery; gotta see that and make plans for the possiblity that he does not recover.

You guys can lay the blame; but either the coaches, or TT, had faith in who we have and felt they could pick up the slack.
It's not getting done

Harrell has been just a guy
Many others on that DL are as well
None of these young guys have really stepped up their play

And Vanilla Bob surely maximizes their ability on the defensive sides with his creative schemes that are sure to cause confusion to the opposeing offense :lol:

Bottom line is our personnell at DL do not get it done.

KGB got cut. With KGB, Williams gone and the injuries, etc. I do think DL needs to be addressed...

[Fritz]

How would people feel about Ron Wolf's approach years ago when Moss was the dominant force in the division? just draft a bunch of guys in the first three rounds in your position of need, and hope one or two work out?

Would folks like it if TT passed on very talented players at other positions and just kept taking defensive linemen?

I think I'd have mixed feelings.

[RashanGary]

I blame Ted. It's not the end of the world if he gets it fixed, but the GM is wehre the buck stops and he's had enough time to take blame for everythign good and bad with this team.

He gets a lot of credit for a lot of things, but he has to do better and it has to start with that shit pile we call a defensive line.

[RashanGary]

Would folks like it if TT passed on very talented players at other positions and just kept taking defensive linemen?

I think I'd have mixed feelings.

I completely agree, but at some point either you have them or you don't and I don't care why. It's a results industry. He's shown enough good to give him a minimum of 2 more seasons, probably 3 or 4, but eventually you can't use the excuse "there weren't any good ones available". Eventually you have to have answers, not excuses.

As far as I'm concerned the DL is approaching that. He started with a decent line and it's crumbling. That much is not Mike Shermans fault, although most of everything else was. There is a slight benefit of the doubt with how bad the team was when he took over, but it's not going to excuse antoher year of this on the DL.

[bobblehead]

Would folks like it if TT passed on very talented players at other positions and just kept taking defensive linemen?

I think I'd have mixed feelings.

I completely agree, but at some point either you have them or you don't and I don't care why. It's a results industry. He's shown enough good to give him a minimum of 2 more seasons, probably 3 or 4, but eventually you can't use the excuse "there weren't any good ones available". Eventually you have to have answers, not excuses.

As far as I'm concerned the DL is approaching that. He started with a decent line and it's crumbling. That much is not Mike Shermans fault, although most of everything else was. There is a slight benefit of the doubt with how bad the team was when he took over, but it's not going to excuse antoher year of this on the DL.

If he started with such a decent line why did we have to replace 3 out of 4 starters in the first 2 years? He started with KGB being shitty against the run, some guys named washington, lee, and I don't even remember. Basically lets be honest, he took over a team with exactly ONE good DL (kampman) and another one developed (Jenkins). When we had a decent KGB rushing, and CWilliams on passing downs we were solid. Losing those 2 things made a huge difference. He has replaced everyone else he inherited and none of those guys are playing stellar anywhere else...most aren't playing at all. You act like he isn't responsible for pickett and Jolly.

We are playing a very tough schedule this season, have only been blown out ONCE, and could very well win out and challenge for the division yet. NOt likely I admit, but what would this board look like then? TT has had ONE draft reach the 3 year mark, he has completely overhauled a SHIT roster and made it young and talented. Is every player an All Pro?? No, but ffs what do you expect?

People whine about how horrible he is at "making the big move" yet he was right to the wire on Arrington, Moss, Gonzalez, and even in the mix on a washed up Taylor. He isn't willing to trade an entire draft for Allen and then pay him enough to piss off Kampman and everyone else...boo fucking hoo.

I bet if we finish soft and get to play a low end schedule next year you will all be kissing his hairy bean bag when we go 12-4. If we finish strong you'll all be doing it a month from now.

[cpk1994]

People whine about how horrible he is at "making the big move" yet he was right to the wire on Arrington, Moss, Gonzalez, and even in the mix on a washed up Taylor. He isn't willing to trade an entire draft for Allen and then pay him enough to piss off Kampman and everyone else...boo fucking hoo.
This paragraph right here should be distributed to everyone who continues to push the myth that TT doesn't go after anybody. It should also include Adam Vinitieri as he made a huge offer to him. The whole "TT doesn't go after anyone" is a complete crock.

[Gunakor]

Who is to blame,well that is pretty easy TT all the way as usual. The scary thing is this same thread will be up next year unless TT is gone.

At first I thought about pointing out to you that Thompson fielded basically the same squad as he did last year, with the notable exception being at the QB position but Rodgers has played up to and exceeded all expectations and has comparable numbers to the guy who played the position the previous year; the essential differences being things like "schedule" and "injuries", both of which we were in better shape last year than this year; and that really if you're going to be happy with the roster that went 13-3 last year you ought to be happy with this year's roster, since they are essentially the same and if you are happy with the roster, you ought to have no beef with the GM once the season has started.



Then I realized it wouldn't be worth the trouble to type all that because you're just a troll.

Injuries are part of football, so is luck. C'est la guerre. If we played close games like we did last year, we'd be 10-2 or 9-3 at this point.

Call me what ever you want but I will be back to remind you that your beloved TT has fucked up again. The man is the downfall to what was once a great football team.

So this was a GREAT football team under Sherman?

[PackerBlues]

So this was a GREAT football team under Sherman?

they never had a losing season under sherman.

[Gunakor]

So this was a GREAT football team under Sherman?

they never had a losing season under sherman.

They never advanced past the divisional round of the playoffs under Sherman either.

And technically, 4-12 was Shermans fault even if he wasn't GM. Shermans awful cap management led us to that point where we had to dump salary. Say goodbye to Whale and Rivera and our running game. Up until this year we were still dealing with Sherman's fuckups - KGB was still on the books at like 7 million per year.

Fortunately for all of Sherman's tenure as GM, he had players inherited from the Wolf era that were good enough to overcome his incompetence.

[RashanGary]

bobblehead, I'm considered by many here to be the leader of the TT fan club. Trust me, I think he's done some impressive things even if the record this year doesn't indicate it.

That said, I'm not going to pretend he is perfect. Last year we had a really good DL. This year it's really bad. KGB wasn't his fault. Corey Williams was a long term decision that hurts now. I do blame him for the Jenkins injury because you always have to count on meaningfull injury on the DL. We could afford zero and that is a problem.

I'm not freaking out saying he sucks. I think quite the opposite. I'm simply saying that he has to fix this DL. This is a great year for DE's and there are two big time DTs' that fit what we do (Raji and Terrance Cody). I don't know exactly how the draft is going to fall but we should be able to pick up some talent on the DL if we want to. I'm not saying pass up greater talent to get it, but if you have 5 guys you like and one is a DL then don't trade back 5 spots and grab the reciever this year. Just sit tight and take the DL. Eventually the, "nohtinig was available excuse will run dry". Again, he might fix it and I have a lot of confidence in him to do it. If he doesn't, he's not getting a free pass from me. If he does, I'll still be right near the head of the TT lover club.

[bobblehead]

bobblehead, I'm considered by many here to be the leader of the TT fan club. Trust me, I think he's done some impressive things even if the record this year doesn't indicate it.

That said, I'm not going to pretend he is perfect. Last year we had a really good DL. This year it's really bad. KGB wasn't his fault. Corey Williams was a long term decision that hurts now. I do blame him for the Jenkins injury because you always have to count on meaningfull injury on the DL. We could afford zero and that is a problem.

I'm not freaking out saying he sucks. I think quite the opposite. I'm simply saying that he has to fix this DL. This is a great year for DE's and there are two big time DTs' that fit what we do (Raji and Terrance Cody). I don't know exactly how the draft is going to fall but we should be able to pick up some talent on the DL if we want to. I'm not saying pass up greater talent to get it, but if you have 5 guys you like and one is a DL then don't trade back 5 spots and grab the reciever this year. Just sit tight and take the DL. Eventually the, "nohtinig was available excuse will run dry". Again, he might fix it and I have a lot of confidence in him to do it. If he doesn't, he's not getting a free pass from me. If he does, I'll still be right near the head of the TT lover club.

I know you are being fair in your assessment, and when I quoted your post I was using it as a template for all the whining going on. I wasn't trying to call you out specifically. You have been on the TT bandwagon as have I from as long as I have been on PR.

You are right, he has made mistakes, but the DL he handled almost as well as he could have. I would love to see a peppers or haynesworth signing, but TT is paying guys what he thinks they are worth. I wish I knew what he might have offered wiliams before he tagged him, I honestly would like to know. If we had a shot to retain him for a reasonable contract that would be on TT, but if CWill was intent on FA then TT did the best he could. KGB....well, he got old on us and never recovered from injury. Jenkins...what can you do, he got hurt. Harell is on him, but might work out yet, and he was at least trying. I agree he is the bottom line, so it falls on him, but in the case of our DL, not a ton he could have done imo.

[Fritz]

So this was a GREAT football team under Sherman?

they never had a losing season under sherman.

Never got to the conference championship game under Sherman.

Lost to Atlanta and Minny in the first round at home under Sherman.

Tarlam reminded me of these facts in another thread - and he was right.

[PackerBlues]

Fortunately for all of Sherman's tenure as GM, he had players inherited from the Wolf era that were good enough to overcome his incompetence.

:roll:

[Gunakor]

Fortunately for all of Sherman's tenure as GM, he had players inherited from the Wolf era that were good enough to overcome his incompetence.

:roll:

Whatever you gotta tell yourself PB.

[MOBB DEEP]

Fortunately for all of Sherman's tenure as GM, he had players inherited from the Wolf era that were good enough to overcome his incompetence.

:roll:

lol

[cpk1994]

Fortunately for all of Sherman's tenure as GM, he had players inherited from the Wolf era that were good enough to overcome his incompetence.

:roll:

Whatever you gotta tell yourself PB.It seems that PB has blocked from his memory such great moves as drafting BJ Sander, trading two picks for R-Cal Truluck, Joe Johnson, Keeping two punters after Sander bombed, etc.

[ThunderDan]

Fortunately for all of Sherman's tenure as GM, he had players inherited from the Wolf era that were good enough to overcome his incompetence.

:roll:

Sherman traded up to draft a punter who couldn't even make it in the NFL. :oops:

[CaliforniaCheez]

Who to blame:

1) Justin Harrell Can't get on the field

2) Ryan Grant Hold out = injury

3) Tony Moll hasn't developed

4) Nick "get run over" Barnett too much of a lightweight

5) Using Spitz at Center instead of having a true Center back up.

6) Cutting Tracy White so Lasannah can be inactive every week

7) Aaron Rodgers for not throwing to the TE.

8) Key misses by Mason Crosby

The list goes on and on.

[MateoInMex]

Who to blame:

1) Justin Harrell Can't get on the field

2) Ryan Grant Hold out = injury

3) Tony Moll hasn't developed

4) Nick "get run over" Barnett too much of a lightweight

5) Using Spitz at Center instead of having a true Center back up.

6) Cutting Tracy White so Lasannah can be inactive every week

7) Aaron Rodgers for not throwing to the TE.

8) Key misses by Mason Crosby

The list goes on and on.

The coaches who have yet to fix an offensive line that continues to get penalized for holding game after game after game

Ted Thompson for the quality of defensive line players on the field.

Ted Thompson for getting rid of Jon Ryan and inserting Frost.

Ted Thompson for building solely through the draft, and not doing enough in Free Agency to bolster positions of weakness on the team

THE TEAM LACKS LEADERSHIP IN MY OPINION.

Its one of the younger teams in the league and it seems maybe more veteran leadership might get this team back on track

Mike Stock

Mike McCarthy

The entire football team
(The Packers have lost the last 5 of 6, 5 games by less than 4 points. Good teams figure out ways to win a few of those, bad teams just lose them all)

[Gunakor]

Ted Thompson for...
Ted Thompson for...
Ted Thompson for...

(The Packers have lost the last 5 of 6, 5 games by less than 4 points. Good teams figure out ways to win a few of those, bad teams just lose them all)

Yep, that's all Ted Thompson's fault...

[MateoInMex]

Ted Thompson for...
Ted Thompson for...
Ted Thompson for...

(The Packers have lost the last 5 of 6, 5 games by less than 4 points. Good teams figure out ways to win a few of those, bad teams just lose them all)

Yep, that's all Ted Thompson's fault...

I did not say losing 5 out of 6 was Ted Thompson's fault, but whatever type of quality product is on the field, the way the product is run...whether it be a manufacturing company or a football usually rides on the shoulders of UPPER MANAGEMENT.

So I guess I did say it was Ted Thompson's fault. I apologize there. All of this falls back on him, no way around that. From the shitty line play, the poor playcalling, everything falls on TT...that's how it goes.

I like TT's ability to find more picks in drafts, and I'm not a hater, but if we look at this year from last year...most would say the play at Quarterback has not seen a big dropoff.

Everything else seems to have fallen off...starting with the late quarter rallies of opposing teams. We saw it in TN, MN and today with the FUcking Houston Texans!!! In Green Bay!!!! I'm sorry, to go from 13-3 and 1 play away from the Superbowl practically.. to losing at home in the last seconds to the Houston Texans, something's gotta change!!

[Fritz]

Mateo, you start replacing upper management everytime there's a hitcfh or a bad season you're asking for chaos and utter breakdowns.

[MateoInMex]

Mateo, you start replacing upper management everytime there's a hitcfh or a bad season you're asking for chaos and utter breakdowns.

I don't think replacing TT is the right move at all, at this point. I'm just thinking that Ted Thompson should bare some of the blame for the turnout of the season.

And Im hoping when he meets with MM, both of them get next season turned around. MM will say lack of execution is his fault, but this team is young, and talented and has underachieved this year IMO. I didn't see much of a dropoff at QB, and I along with many fans thought that was the biggest weakness going into the season. That's all the sports media did the first have of the season, was compare ARod and Favre.

But ARod held his own, and i'd like to see this team get some more veteran players that solidfy the defensive line, and cut the penalties down.

[Partial]

Blame starts at the top. Those are the guys who dictate who is in what position, and give MM the players he coaches.

[cpk1994]

Mateo, you start replacing upper management everytime there's a hitcfh or a bad season you're asking for chaos and utter breakdowns.Not to mention no one in the league is going to wnat to come work for the organization.

[red]

who's to blame?

TT

this is his abortion. he wanted these coaches, he got rid of the players he didn't want and brought in the players he did want

this is his team, this is his mistake

[Fosco33]

In order of priority:

- Giving up big plays on defense and special teams
- Poor defensive schemes (zone instead of man; bend/break)
- Lack of depth to cover for injuries (DL primarily)
- Inability to finish a game and have a killer instinct
- Questionable offensive playcalling (reliance on the pass, predictable calls)
- Lack of discipline (ST, penalties, assignments, fundamentals)
- Lack of 2nd half adjustments
- Inconsistent running game to start the season
- Inconsistent offensive line (starting line, rotation)
- Bad luck (refs, timing of when we played teams, key injuries)

How to fix this:
- Make a call on ZBS and overall play-calling (does status quo/Philbin suite Rodgers/Grant strenghts?)
- Replace at least Sanders, Schottenheimer and Scott
- Overturn defensive line (draft, FA) and linebacking core (keep Hawk/Barnett)
- Focus on discipline and give M3 one year to make a significant improvement in player execution

[imscott72]

I blame Frost. He has is no longer a Packer and should be fair game.

I blame Ned Yost..

[Kiwon]

I blame Frost. He has is no longer a Packer and should be fair game.

I blame Ned Yost..

I blame Stock, Frost, Yost, and injuries.

[MateoInMex]

I blame Frost. He has is no longer a Packer and should be fair game.

I blame Ned Yost..

LmfAo!!

[Gunakor]

I blame Frost. He has is no longer a Packer and should be fair game.

I blame Ned Yost..

Think if we hire Svuem as the interim coach we could sneak into the playoffs?

[gex]

Blame starts at the top. Those are the guys who dictate who is in what position, and give MM the players he coaches.

He gets the praise for 13-3, he gets the blame for 5-8. Fair is fair.

[PackerBlues]

Fortunately for all of Sherman's tenure as GM, he had players inherited from the Wolf era that were good enough to overcome his incompetence.

:roll:

Whatever you gotta tell yourself PB.It seems that PB has blocked from his memory such great moves as drafting BJ Sander, trading two picks for R-Cal Truluck, Joe Johnson, Keeping two punters after Sander bombed, etc.

We could go back and forth all day long on who was better at drafting, but one simple fact remains: Sherman always fielded a winning team.

It was not until Thompson took over as GM, that the Packers went from being a team that you expected to make the playoffs, to being a team that you hope will make the playoffs (with luck).

I honestly do not expect Thompsons job to be in jeopardy yet, but if I were him, I would seriously reconsider my approch to picking up veteran free agents. One more season like this one, and............ :shtf:

[Fritz]

We can go back and forth on this all day long, but by golly, Vince Lombardi won some Super Bowls, dammit.

[PackerTimer]

Fortunately for all of Sherman's tenure as GM, he had players inherited from the Wolf era that were good enough to overcome his incompetence.

:roll:

Whatever you gotta tell yourself PB.It seems that PB has blocked from his memory such great moves as drafting BJ Sander, trading two picks for R-Cal Truluck, Joe Johnson, Keeping two punters after Sander bombed, etc.

We could go back and forth all day long on who was better at drafting, but one simple fact remains: Sherman always fielded a winning team.

It was not until Thompson took over as GM, that the Packers went from being a team that you expected to make the playoffs, to being a team that you hope will make the playoffs (with luck).

I honestly do not expect Thompsons job to be in jeopardy yet, but if I were him, I would seriously reconsider my approch to picking up veteran free agents. One more season like this one, and............ :shtf:

You do know that Sherman inherited a talent laden team only a few years removed from playing in back-to-back Super Bowls, right? He inherited one of the top 5 QB's in the history of the NFL in his prime. He had a ton of talent when he took over as the coach and GM but did absolutely nothing to maintain that level of talent. The team would have been 4-12 that year whether or not TT took over or not. Sherman had completely exhausted most of the talent on the team. What talent was left was aging and in decline. Sherman probably would have overpaid his aging veterans and exasberated the problems. We would have been like the Ravens, eventually you would have seen massive cap casualties and massive cuts with millions of dollars of dead money counting against the salary cap. The jury is still out on TT, I think he knows what he's doing. I'd still like to see him improve and maybe sign some FA's. Despite what everybody says about him he has shown that he'll pay FA's if he thinks they are worth it. I respect that you don't like TT. Like I said, the jury might still be out on TT, but it's in on Mike Sherman, he was a pretty good coach and an absolutely horrible GM.

[MateoInMex]

The mere thought of Mike Charmin anywhere near the GB Packers facility makes me throw up in my mouth a little.

What a waste of 5 years watching that guy's team take the field. I will say that no matter how shitty his FA signings were, at least that guy looked at Free Agency...but admittedly, he fell asleep at that combines, so that makes him Bizarr-o Thompson.

[th87]

Sherman played to make the playoffs and then hope for the best.

Thompson plays for a championship or nothing at all.

[Bretsky]

Sherman played to make the playoffs and then hope for the best.

Thompson plays for a championship or nothing at all.


That's an argument I find hard to see

Sherman was going for the gusto; it's what he did in free agency and Joe Johnson was perfect proof. He was always playing for the now

I don't see TT as that way "yet". I'm not sure if he'll ever take that step.

TT seems to run the show for the long term future; not the now. Just the way I see it

[HarveyWallbangers]

He gets the praise for 13-3, he gets the blame for 5-8. Fair is fair.

I remember a lot of people NOT giving him praise for 13-3, but you are right this time.

[th87]

Sherman played to make the playoffs and then hope for the best.

Thompson plays for a championship or nothing at all.


That's an argument I find hard to see

Sherman was going for the gusto; it's what he did in free agency and Joe Johnson was perfect proof. He was always playing for the now

I don't see TT as that way "yet". I'm not sure if he'll ever take that step.

TT seems to run the show for the long term future; not the now. Just the way I see it

This would imply that TT doesn't want to ever win. We all know that such a supposition is absurd. We just need wait for his plan to blossom.

It may fail, of course, but we should let things run its course.

[Bretsky]

Sherman played to make the playoffs and then hope for the best.

Thompson plays for a championship or nothing at all.


That's an argument I find hard to see

Sherman was going for the gusto; it's what he did in free agency and Joe Johnson was perfect proof. He was always playing for the now

I don't see TT as that way "yet". I'm not sure if he'll ever take that step.

TT seems to run the show for the long term future; not the now. Just the way I see it

This would imply that TT doesn't want to ever win. We all know that such a supposition is absurd. We just need wait for his plan to blossom.

It may fail, of course, but we should let things run its course.


I'm not implying he does not want to win; I don't think he sees a sense of urgency like Sherman did. I think he figures things will develop over time as the draft picks develop. I don't see TT playing for a title or nothing at all..........gold or bust.....that was Sherman and he ended up with a bust

[RashanGary]

Sherman played to make the playoffs and then hope for the best.

Thompson plays for a championship or nothing at all.


You do realize you just said in 25 words what has taken me probably hundreds of hours and pages of posts trying to explain. That is why I don't care about each season. That is why I don't freak out about a problem area. That is why I'm still very optimistic about the Packers. That is why I showed up at the game and left happy as a pig in shit after a loss.

[Zool]

Are pigs actually happy in shit?

[th87]

Sherman played to make the playoffs and then hope for the best.

Thompson plays for a championship or nothing at all.


You do realize you just said in 25 words what has taken me probably hundreds of hours and pages of posts trying to explain. That is why I don't care about each season. That is why I don't freak out about a problem area. That is why I'm still very optimistic about the Packers. That is why I showed up at the game and left happy as a pig in shit after a loss.

I too am optimistic. Harrell will improve. Some tweaks here and there, and a little bit of luck, we can be good again.

Football is really a momentum game. You win some in a row, you'll continue to win. If you lose some close games in a row, you'll continue to do so. We've been in nearly every game this year, only to let our season momentum ultimately dictate those close losses. Hopefully leaders emerge next year to prevent something similar from happening. The line between winning and losing is so thin.

[RashanGary]

I too am optimistic. Harrell will improve. Some tweaks here and there, and a little bit of luck, we can be good again.

Football is really a momentum game. You win some in a row, you'll continue to win. If you lose some close games in a row, you'll continue to do so. We've been in nearly every game this year, only to let our season momentum ultimately dictate those close losses. Hopefully leaders emerge next year to prevent something similar from happening. The line between winning and losing is so thin.

For sure. The only way to lower your cieling is to make a costly mistake. All of Thompsons moves are designed to get better and to avoid lowering the cieling in a way that will prevent the ulitmate goal. Sometimes, in an effort to avoid dropping the ceiling on his head, he takes a little more time than we would like but the ultimate goal is to win a championship. Lowering the ceiling at all is would be too much. We have to be the best of 32.

Some health luck will play in (meaning it will be nice to be good for many years so as to increase the odds of having that healthy season). Some momentum and good coaching will have to play in (maybe they decide it's time for a little shake up and then gain continuity). Ultimately though, I think it's the roster that will count the most and in order to fit enough talent on one roster it takes a whole crap load of good decisions built on each other with very few big, long term mistakes. It appears we are going in the right general direction. Now hopefully it peaks and the moons align because I think the real window starts about next year and should carry on for about a decade if Thompson can be steady and effective in his job.

[PackerBlues]

Well, I will admit that Rodgers has been better than the average QB all year...... but, I don't think we will be referring to him as "The Comeback Kid" anytime soon.

[sheepshead]

He gets the praise for 13-3, he gets the blame for 5-8. Fair is fair.

I remember a lot of people NOT giving him praise for 13-3, but you are right this time.

A lot indeed. Everyone thinks they can do that job. They know they can't run a 4.4 40, no vertical 45 inch jump, maybe knowing that playbook front to back and contributing to it seems a little daunting. But GM, well hells bells everyone says: I CAN DO THAT!! ESPECIALLY BETTER THAN THAT BUFFOON WE HAVE NOW!

[rbaloha1]

Shared blame.

Injuries, defensive breakdowns, penalties and MM's occasional poor play calling in crunch time.

[Partial]

Blame starts at the top. TT and MM get most of it.

[Gunakor]

Blame starts at the top. TT and MM get most of it.

TT and MM will not be judged on this season's failures by anyone except bitter fans. They will be judged by level headed fans and football experts on how they respond to these failures during the offseason. The blame for this season falls on the players and coaches, but the blame for not getting it fixed during the offseason (should it not be fixed) falls on TT.

TT doesn't do a whole lot during the season anyway except for scouting. He's not wheeling and dealing for a whole lot of players while the season is being played. He's not formulating gameplans or working with players on technique. What could people expect TT to have done in October, when the late game meltdowns began happening on a consistent basis?

TT's job starts in February. That's when rosters begin to change. What TT does between February and June is what he should be judged on IMO. If he gets the job done, people should acknowledge him for it regardless of the record this season. He didn't create the problems we are dealing with right now. His job is to fix the personnel problems heading into next season, which he can't start to do until February anyway. That is what he will be judged for. If he fails at that, then and only then would I blame him for this struggling franchise. If he succeeds, then he's done his job and should be commended for it. That's how I feel.

[Partial]

TT is flirting at .500, which is unacceptable for the G&G, especially after taking two years to rebuild in the past 4 years.

He's not going to lose his job. Neither is MM. But blame for the season starts at the top, then goes to coaching.

[K-town]

He didn't create the problems we are dealing with right now.

Huh? The mess at defensive line (counting on Justin Harrell and KGB instead of upgrading in the offseason) and the inconsistency/lack of development of HIS o-line draftees are EXACTLY the problems he created.
I give him credit for Greg Jennings, Nick Collins and the rebuilding of an aging team with no depth. But I also hold him responsible for the stuff that didn't work out.

[Gunakor]

TT is flirting at .500, which is unacceptable for the G&G, especially after taking two years to rebuild in the past 4 years.

He's not going to lose his job. Neither is MM. But blame for the season starts at the top, then goes to coaching.

Explain P. I hear you say this all the time, as if you are just spewing some company line. So tell me, after factoring in all of the intangibles such as injury and schedule, exactly how much blame can be placed on Ted Thompson? Then tell me why. Don't bring up Brett Favre, because there's nothing you can say that would convince me that the problem with this team is QB play. That's not the problem.

And after you are done ranting about all that, tell me how you expect anyone to rebuild a roster with 53 players on it in merely 2 seasons. Or 4 seasons for that matter...

[Gunakor]

He didn't create the problems we are dealing with right now.

Huh? The mess at defensive line (counting on Justin Harrell and KGB instead of upgrading in the offseason) and the inconsistency/lack of development of HIS o-line draftees are EXACTLY the problems he created.
I give him credit for Greg Jennings, Nick Collins and the rebuilding of an aging team with no depth. But I also hold him responsible for the stuff that didn't work out.

How is a player's inconsistency or lack of development the GM's fault? The coaches fault, sure. The GM's?

Do you even know what a GM does?

[Partial]

TT is flirting at .500, which is unacceptable for the G&G, especially after taking two years to rebuild in the past 4 years.

He's not going to lose his job. Neither is MM. But blame for the season starts at the top, then goes to coaching.

Explain P. I hear you say this all the time, as if you are just spewing some company line. So tell me, after factoring in all of the intangibles such as injury and schedule, exactly how much blame can be placed on Ted Thompson? Then tell me why. Don't bring up Brett Favre, because there's nothing you can say that would convince me that the problem with this team is QB play. That's not the problem.

And after you are done ranting about all that, tell me how you expect anyone to rebuild a roster with 53 players on it in merely 2 seasons. Or 4 seasons for that matter...

You don't blame the players for injury. The blame has to fall on someones shoulders, it always does. It goes on someone at the top.

I'm not saying Thompson has done a bad job as I historically have supported what he has done and I think he has a phenomenal eye for talent.

It's gotta fall on MM for a lack of preparedness. Injuries withstanding, the play has been generally sloppy, chalk full of penalties, and the gameplanning has left a lot to be desired ( sticking with an injured Grant, not splitting carries enough, too conservative of play calling when Aarons best pass is the deep ball, etc).

Teddy has rebuilt the roster. There is a lot of talent here. Problem is he has banked of two oft injured guys to be part of the foundation of the DL. Outside of those two, the rest of the injuries seems pretty freakish, one time kind of things.

I'm confident that with a coordinator change we'll be a top 10 D next year, especially with our secondary.

[Gunakor]

TT is flirting at .500, which is unacceptable for the G&G, especially after taking two years to rebuild in the past 4 years.

He's not going to lose his job. Neither is MM. But blame for the season starts at the top, then goes to coaching.

Explain P. I hear you say this all the time, as if you are just spewing some company line. So tell me, after factoring in all of the intangibles such as injury and schedule, exactly how much blame can be placed on Ted Thompson? Then tell me why. Don't bring up Brett Favre, because there's nothing you can say that would convince me that the problem with this team is QB play. That's not the problem.

And after you are done ranting about all that, tell me how you expect anyone to rebuild a roster with 53 players on it in merely 2 seasons. Or 4 seasons for that matter...

You don't blame the players for injury. The blame has to fall on someones shoulders, it always does. It goes on someone at the top.

I'm not saying Thompson has done a bad job as I historically have supported what he has done and I think he has a phenomenal eye for talent.

It's gotta fall on MM for a lack of preparedness. Injuries withstanding, the play has been generally sloppy, chalk full of penalties, and the gameplanning has left a lot to be desired ( sticking with an injured Grant, not splitting carries enough, too conservative of play calling when Aarons best pass is the deep ball, etc).

Teddy has rebuilt the roster. There is a lot of talent here. Problem is he has banked of two oft injured guys to be part of the foundation of the DL. Outside of those two, the rest of the injuries seems pretty freakish, one time kind of things.

I'm confident that with a coordinator change we'll be a top 10 D next year, especially with our secondary.

I don't blame the GM for injury either. Shit happens, it's a very violent game. If the guy can play, you give him a chance. Justin Harrell was a BEAST in college, so TT gave him a shot in the pros. It didn't work out, but it doesn't mean it was a bad decision. Imagine if Harrell was healthy and playing like he did in college right now. We wouldn't be bitching about a shitty DL nearly as much. Again, it didn't work out that way, but it couldn't have been predicted to fail like this. So chalk that one up as a "miss" on TT's resume, but don't use that as an example of him not working hard enough to rebuild this team.

I too am hopeful that we'll be a top defense once again with a new coordinator. But that's only part of the problem on defense. Teddy has rebuilt the roster on offense, but hasn't spent a whole lot of time on defense. Harrell didn't work out, and Jeremy Thompson and Pat Lee are too young to gauge whether they'll be starting caliber players or perennial backups. Other than that, pretty much everyone he's added to the defense has been older fill ins like Ryan Pickett or temporary fill ins like Brady Poppinga. Most of the starters on defense are still holdovers from the Sherman era, such as Nick Collins and Aaron Kampman and Nick Barnett and Al Harris. So it hasn't really been rebuilt, but IMO doesn't have to be.

The problem on defense this year is it has been mismanaged IMO. Part of that has been losing Nick Barnett for the season, as he was the quarterback of that defense. He'd make the pre snap calls and did a fairly good job getting his guys into the right position.

[sheepshead]

I blame Frost. He has is no longer a Packer and should be fair game.

I blame Ned Yost.. :lol: :lol:

[Pugger]

The demise of our D is squarely on TT. He gambled that Harrell and KGB would be healthy and contributing and Pickett and Jolly would play like they did last season so he decided he had the luxury of trading a backup to Cleveland and it blew up in his face. :? We have zero pass rush and we can't stop the run so the rest of the defense is reeling. :( If we force our opponents to punt is is almost a shock. :wink:

The problems on the O line I lay at the coaches (Campen for sure). You can't have a revolving door on your O line and expect cohesion. :roll:

[Gunakor]

The demise of our D is squarely on TT. He gambled that Harrell and KGB would be healthy and contributing and Pickett and Jolly would play like they did last season so he decided he had the luxury of trading a backup to Cleveland and it blew up in his face. :? We have zero pass rush and we can't stop the run so the rest of the defense is reeling. :( If we force our opponents to punt is is almost a shock. :wink:

The problems on the O line I lay at the coaches (Campen for sure). You can't have a revolving door on your O line and expect cohesion. :roll:

KGB had, what, 9 and a half sacks last season? Do you fault TT for counting on him again this year?

Do you fault TT for counting on Jolly and Pickett to contribute as much as they did last year? I mean, remember, neither he nor you nor I nor anyone else had the benefit of hindsight back then. We all expected better from Jolly and Pickett this season. Just one year ago they were both very solid football players.

When the Williams trade was made, I can't think of a single person that wasn't pleased as punch that we were able to get a second round pick for that lazy ass. Besides, he ain't shit in Cleveland anyway. Based on his play this season, I'm not sure how much he'd have helped this ailing defense. Maybe, maybe not, but he certainly isn't doing a whole lot for that Browns defense.


If you are implying that it was moves TT made that have caused the collapse of this defense, I can agree with you. If you are implying that they were the wrong moves to make at the time, even without the benefit of hindsight to see how those moves turn out, I say you are dead wrong. I wouldn't make these choices knowing what I know now, but back then, I figured the DL was the deepest and most talented unit on our entire defense. It's not TT's fault that the only one of them that has stepped up to repeating last season's production is Aaron Kampman, while the rest of them have faded back into mediocrity.

[Pugger]

Of course we have 20/20 hindsight! But at the time there was no way to know KGB would not come back after his injury and that Pickett and Jolly would not play as well this season as they did last year. I had NO problem with TT trading Williams. I remember last season after Jolly went down Williams began to start and our pass rush disappeared. TT thought he had the horses on the D line so he traded a backup, but then we had all sorts of hits at that position and the rest of the defense has suffered. So yes, it was moves on the D line by TT that has caused the collapse of our defense this season and I hope he addresses it in the offseason big time.

[K-town]

He didn't create the problems we are dealing with right now.

Huh? The mess at defensive line (counting on Justin Harrell and KGB instead of upgrading in the offseason) and the inconsistency/lack of development of HIS o-line draftees are EXACTLY the problems he created.
I give him credit for Greg Jennings, Nick Collins and the rebuilding of an aging team with no depth. But I also hold him responsible for the stuff that didn't work out.

How is a player's inconsistency or lack of development the GM's fault? The coaches fault, sure. The GM's?

Do you even know what a GM does?

Yeah, I think a GM is supposed to procure talent. Did you not read the part where I questioned him not getting more and better personnel for the D-line? And the lack of development on the O-line might, MIGHT just be a result of his failure to correctly assess talent. Is that too hard for you to understand?

[MOBB DEEP]

TT is flirting at .500, which is unacceptable for the G&G, especially after taking two years to rebuild in the past 4 years.

He's not going to lose his job. Neither is MM. But blame for the season starts at the top, then goes to coaching.

Explain P. I hear you say this all the time, as if you are just spewing some company line. So tell me, after factoring in all of the intangibles such as injury and schedule, exactly how much blame can be placed on Ted Thompson? Then tell me why. Don't bring up Brett Favre, because there's nothing you can say that would convince me that the problem with this team is QB play. That's not the problem.

And after you are done ranting about all that, tell me how you expect anyone to rebuild a roster with 53 players on it in merely 2 seasons. Or 4 seasons for that matter...


who rebuilds after a 13-3 record and hosting nfccg???? thats pretty much where we are now!

at least our schedule SHOULD be easier next year...

me thinks pack will be lions only win this season

i predicted 11-5 this year with THE WHOLE TEAM returning so is sickening to watch the pack these days

DAYUM!!!

[Gunakor]

He didn't create the problems we are dealing with right now.

Huh? The mess at defensive line (counting on Justin Harrell and KGB instead of upgrading in the offseason) and the inconsistency/lack of development of HIS o-line draftees are EXACTLY the problems he created.
I give him credit for Greg Jennings, Nick Collins and the rebuilding of an aging team with no depth. But I also hold him responsible for the stuff that didn't work out.

How is a player's inconsistency or lack of development the GM's fault? The coaches fault, sure. The GM's?

Do you even know what a GM does?

Yeah, I think a GM is supposed to procure talent. Did you not read the part where I questioned him not getting more and better personnel for the D-line? And the lack of development on the O-line might, MIGHT just be a result of his failure to correctly assess talent. Is that too hard for you to understand?

Did you not pay attention last season when there was more talent on our D-Line than we knew what to do with? Is it TT's fault that Jolly and Pickett have regressed this season? It it TT's fault that Cullen Jenkins had a season ending injury? It is NOT TT's fault if these players aren't playing up to their ability. These guys are more talented than their production this year would illustrate. Last season should be a perfect example of what they CAN do but HAVEN'T done this year.

And as far as your arguement about the O-Line, the part of that line that TT brought in has been the most productive part of that line. TT is responsible for bringing in the interior line - the guards and the center. It is the TACKLES that have been the problem on the O-Line this year, and both of them were here way before TT got here. They too have not played up to their talent level this year, but I'm sure that you'd blame TT for that as well.

The problem might not be TT's ability to assess talent. Maybe it's the players not playing up to their talent level. As so many love to point out, we had basically the same players last year, and last year they played much better than they have this year. Was last year a fluke, where they were all playing over their heads? Or is this year a fluke, where they are all underacheiving? Regardless which one is the correct answer, things weren't broken last season. You can't expect our GM to fix something that doesn't appear to be broken. Stop using hindsight in your arguement because nobody was afforded that luxury when these decisions had to be made. They were the correct decisions at the time.

[Gunakor]

TT is flirting at .500, which is unacceptable for the G&G, especially after taking two years to rebuild in the past 4 years.

He's not going to lose his job. Neither is MM. But blame for the season starts at the top, then goes to coaching.

Explain P. I hear you say this all the time, as if you are just spewing some company line. So tell me, after factoring in all of the intangibles such as injury and schedule, exactly how much blame can be placed on Ted Thompson? Then tell me why. Don't bring up Brett Favre, because there's nothing you can say that would convince me that the problem with this team is QB play. That's not the problem.

And after you are done ranting about all that, tell me how you expect anyone to rebuild a roster with 53 players on it in merely 2 seasons. Or 4 seasons for that matter...


who rebuilds after a 13-3 record and hosting nfccg???? thats pretty much where we are now!

at least our schedule SHOULD be easier next year...

me thinks pack will be lions only win this season

i predicted 11-5 this year with THE WHOLE TEAM returning so is sickening to watch the pack these days

DAYUM!!!

So if the WHOLE TEAM returns this season, and 13 wins becomes 5 or 6, do you blame the GM for the collaps or the players? A better way to ask this is if things didn't appear to be broken last year - especially on the defensive line - how can one blame the GM for not fixing these problems that don't appear to be broken.

I think you nailed it, although you might not realize it. You basically said the players we have are not playing up to the level they were last season, which is 100% correct. But that speaks to production, not talent. These guys are just as talented as they were last year, yet their production has gone down. That's on the coaches, not the GM. TT has put together a talented group of players - a group that, as you said, hosted the NFC Championship Game last season. TT did not fail us in that regard. TT's job is procuring talent, but it is MM's job to turn that talent into production on Sundays. MM has failed us big time by not getting these guys as prepared for gameday as they were last season.

Yeah, TT hired MM. But going back to my earlier point in this post, since it did not appear last offseason that MM was a bad choice as HC, nobody could expect TT to make a change there either. Nearly everybody from the coaches to the players that are on our roster this year were here last year, yet nearly nobody from the coaches to the players has performed up to their talent level. Is that TT's fault?

[Gunakor]

Of course we have 20/20 hindsight! But at the time there was no way to know KGB would not come back after his injury and that Pickett and Jolly would not play as well this season as they did last year. I had NO problem with TT trading Williams. I remember last season after Jolly went down Williams began to start and our pass rush disappeared. TT thought he had the horses on the D line so he traded a backup, but then we had all sorts of hits at that position and the rest of the defense has suffered. So yes, it was moves on the D line by TT that has caused the collapse of our defense this season and I hope he addresses it in the offseason big time.

I absolutely agree. I just would not have expected him to address this issue before this season began, because there didn't appear to be an issue to address back in March. Like I've been saying, it is what he does THIS offseason to address some of these problems that he'll be judged on. He didn't do anything last offseason that any other GM coming off of a 13-3 season and an NFC Championship Game appearance wouldn't do.

[K-town]

Christ we can argue this until the (bell) cows come home.
In the NFC Championship game, our defensive line, the one with more talent than we know what to do with, got overrun.
Didn't have a problem with sending Corey Williams packing. Do have a problem with TT counting on an oft-injured Harrell who showed little if any signs of being a viable replacement. And I've got a problem with anyone believing Montgomery could step in if Jenkins missed significant time. Why not add some bodies in the draft or in free agency? And I mean more than a 4th rounder.
As for the middle of our offensive line being the most productive, that's like being the tallest midget. The tackles are worse, or at least older, but the guards can't create a reasonable push on a lot of runs. And they get collapsed in pass situations more often than is acceptable. Remember, Spitz and Colledge and Jack-of-all-trades-Mater-of-none Moll are Ted's hand-picjked guys. In their 3rd year of this system.
I don't know which year, 2007 or 2008 , was the "fluke."
You seem to fell that this season's debacle is due to incompetent or inefective coaching, combined with players not reaching their potential.
Could it be a combination of both personnel assessment/moves and coaching. Or is Ted infallible to you?

[th87]

Football's also a game of momentum. Win 3 in a row, and you'll probably win 4. Lose 3 in a row, and you'll lose the 4th.

The talent gap is really small in the NFL, so it's necessary to take advantage of all opportunities.

Shoddy performances created bad momentum, and momentum then did the rest. That's why we're 5-9.

[Freak Out]

Both the Packers losing seasons the last 17 years (?) have come under TTs watch...so it must be Sherman's fault. :lol:

[Pacopete4]

Both the Packers losing seasons the last 17 years (?) have come under TTs watch...so it must be Sherman's fault. :lol:


haha I saw this somewhere else as well and had a good chuckle. People want to compare him to Ron Wolf or even make remarks at Wolf for missing on a couple first rounders... yet we just didn't lose with him as our GM nor did we lose while Sherman was here either!

[HarveyWallbangers]

This year is on him. Only an idiot would blame him for the 2005 record. He just took over, and he had to clean up Sherman's mess. Next year is a big year for him though.

[Patler]

Who is to blame?

If you think the team underperformed its ability, in spite of the injuries, you blame the coaches.
If you think the talent is not what you thought from last year, you blame TT.
If you think the injuries severely impacted performance, along with unexpected player performance declines and simple "bad luck" you blame no one.

[Gunakor]

Or is Ted infallible to you?

No, he's not. But if he's responsible for this year's failure then he's responsible for last years success as well. You can't just lay last year entirely on Brett Favre and not credit TT at all if you don't lay this year entirely on the players also. That's my point. Either last year was a fluke and this year is the norm, or last year was the norm and this year is a fluke, or it's somewhere inbetween. Nobody knows, so nobody should be pointing fingers until they do. Agreed?

[K-town]

Or is Ted infallible to you?

No, he's not. But if he's responsible for this year's failure then he's responsible for last years success as well. You can't just lay last year entirely on Brett Favre and not credit TT at all if you don't lay this year entirely on the players also. That's my point. Either last year was a fluke and this year is the norm, or last year was the norm and this year is a fluke, or it's somewhere inbetween. Nobody knows, so nobody should be pointing fingers until they do. Agreed?

I'll agree on the somewhere inbetween.

Oh, and the Shadow Knows. Wherever the hell he is.

[Gunakor]

Both the Packers losing seasons the last 17 years (?) have come under TTs watch...so it must be Sherman's fault. :lol:


haha I saw this somewhere else as well and had a good chuckle. People want to compare him to Ron Wolf or even make remarks at Wolf for missing on a couple first rounders... yet we just didn't lose with him as our GM nor did we lose while Sherman was here either!

First off, we didn't win a goddamn thing under Sherman. If you are of the belief that it's about championships more than winning seasons, we've gotten closer to a championship under Thompson than we ever did under Sherman. Remember that much when comparing the two.

Now the first of TT's 2 losing seasons came after we were forced to dump a lot of high priced talent from our roster because Sherman left us in salary cap hell. It's remarkable how fast TT turned a maxed out payroll with no wiggle room into a very healthy payroll with enough excess to do basically whatever we want to do. On top of that, the guys he did start the season with were on IR at the end of it. Javon Walker and Terrance Murphy and Ahman Green and Tony Fisher and Najeh Davenport and Noah Herron and Samkon Gado and... I suppose that's TT's fault too, even though we were 8-8 the next season and 13-3 the following one. Don't forget that Charmin was coaching that team, so technically, the worst season we've had in 2 decades came under PSL's watch too. Not to mention the fact that whatshisname was still barking out signals at the LOS. Oh yeah, it was all TT's fault, for sure.

Now we get to this season, the second of his two losing seasons. We enter this season with basically the same roster as we had last year, with one noticeable exception on each side of the ball. The same roster that finished 13-3 and was one pass away from a Super Bowl last year. Tell me, what would you have done differently back in March? Weren't you just as amped about our young and talented roster as I was? Of course you were, everyone was. We were one play away from a Super Bowl, regardless what the average age or experience of our roster was. So why would you have changed anything? Given the benefit of hindsight, sure. But back then there was no way to predict a sub .500 season this year, given the fact that 20 of our 22 starters were starting last year.

This is what I don't understand about your arguement - you keep blaming TT for not making enough changes but have yet to explain what reason TT had for making more changes in the first place. We were 13-3 last year - if it ain't broke don't fix it. We are not close to that this year, which means something is now broken and needs fixing. Give TT a chance to fix this.

The same players and coaches that went 13-3 last year are the ones who are failing big time this year. That one isn't on TT unless he doesn't get it fixed when he has a chance to. If he does not fix what is broken with the personnel on this team during THIS offseason, then the blame falls on him. But he cannot be blamed for what happened last offseason, because he did what any good GM would do with a 13-3 roster - he left it stay as it was for the most part.

Now go on and tell me about the change at QB, as if that has been the difference between 13-3 and this year in the first place.

[Pacopete4]

Both the Packers losing seasons the last 17 years (?) have come under TTs watch...so it must be Sherman's fault. :lol:


haha I saw this somewhere else as well and had a good chuckle. People want to compare him to Ron Wolf or even make remarks at Wolf for missing on a couple first rounders... yet we just didn't lose with him as our GM nor did we lose while Sherman was here either!

First off, we didn't win a goddamn thing under Sherman. If you are of the belief that it's about championships more than winning seasons, we've gotten closer to a championship under Thompson than we ever did under Sherman. Remember that much when comparing the two.

Now the first of TT's 2 losing seasons came after we were forced to dump a lot of high priced talent from our roster because Sherman left us in salary cap hell. It's remarkable how fast TT turned a maxed out payroll with no wiggle room into a very healthy payroll with enough excess to do basically whatever we want to do. On top of that, the guys he did start the season with were on IR at the end of it. Javon Walker and Terrance Murphy and Ahman Green and Tony Fisher and Najeh Davenport and Noah Herron and Samkon Gado and... I suppose that's TT's fault too, even though we were 8-8 the next season and 13-3 the following one. Don't forget that Charmin was coaching that team, so technically, the worst season we've had in 2 decades came under PSL's watch too. Not to mention the fact that whatshisname was still barking out signals at the LOS. Oh yeah, it was all TT's fault, for sure.

Now we get to this season, the second of his two losing seasons. We enter this season with basically the same roster as we had last year, with one noticeable exception on each side of the ball. The same roster that finished 13-3 and was one pass away from a Super Bowl last year. Tell me, what would you have done differently back in March? Weren't you just as amped about our young and talented roster as I was? Of course you were, everyone was. We were one play away from a Super Bowl, regardless what the average age or experience of our roster was. So why would you have changed anything? Given the benefit of hindsight, sure. But back then there was no way to predict a sub .500 season this year, given the fact that 20 of our 22 starters were starting last year.

This is what I don't understand about your arguement - you keep blaming TT for not making enough changes but have yet to explain what reason TT had for making more changes in the first place. We were 13-3 last year - if it ain't broke don't fix it. We are not close to that this year, which means something is now broken and needs fixing. Give TT a chance to fix this.

The same players and coaches that went 13-3 last year are the ones who are failing big time this year. That one isn't on TT unless he doesn't get it fixed when he has a chance to. If he does not fix what is broken with the personnel on this team during THIS offseason, then the blame falls on him. But he cannot be blamed for what happened last offseason, because he did what any good GM would do with a 13-3 roster - he left it stay as it was for the most part.

Now go on and tell me about the change at QB, as if that has been the difference between 13-3 and this year in the first place.



No, everyone wasnt. Some people, believe it or not, actually saw this shit coming. There would be a tumble effect, most the time there is. He took his shot and got toasted, and in a year... he will lose his job because of it. And to me, thats awesome because he is a fuckin snake that deserves everything thats happening this season. Taking a line from Numb here but Karma sure is a bitch!


Oh and.. HE DIDNT FUCKING FIX US FROM LAST SEASON! He left our shit ass pass rush be even worse off even though he knew KGB was aging and he didnt fix our run D... yea, GREAT GM!

[Gunakor]

No, everyone wasnt. Some people, believe it or not, actually saw this shit coming. There would be a tumble effect, most the time there is. He took his shot and got toasted, and in a year... he will lose his job because of it. And to me, thats awesome because he is a fuckin snake that deserves everything thats happening this season. Taking a line from Numb here but Karma sure is a bitch!


Oh and.. HE DIDNT FUCKING FIX US FROM LAST SEASON! He left our shit ass pass rush be even worse off even though he knew KGB was aging and he didnt fix our run D... yea, GREAT GM!

You didn't see this coming until he traded BF away. Because unlike most of us, you thought that 13-3 was a direct reflection of having BF at quarterback rather than a complete team effort. Don't even try to lie about it Paco, that is why you are mad at TT. It has nothing to do with our defense. Our defense was fine last year - it needed no fixing. It didn't become broken until this season. That's not what you are pissed about though, is it? No, your frustration is simply because your boyhood idol was traded to New York.

TT wasn't supposed to fix us from last season. We were 13-3 last year. How much can you fucking fix with 13-3? Seriously man, do you know how rediculous that sounds? "Oh we lost the NFC Championship game, time to overhaul our defense!" Do you realize that's what you sound like right now?

Our shit ass pass rush that ranked amongst the league best in sacks last year? Make wholesale changes to that? Really? KGB was aging, but he still accounted for nine and a half fucking sacks last year. There was no reason to believe he couldn't come in and perform this year. We didn't know until this year, and to act like you saw this shit coming is laughable at best. You are no fucking prophet Paco. You aren't even smart, you just happen to get lucky sometimes. If half of the games we lost in the final minutes of games this year had went the other way, we'd be staring at another division title and your arguement would have no merit whatsoever. You keep using hindsight in your arguement - OH LOOK AT OUR SHIT D LINE THIS YEAR - totally forgetting that it was a pretty dominant D line last year.

[Pacopete4]

No, everyone wasnt. Some people, believe it or not, actually saw this shit coming. There would be a tumble effect, most the time there is. He took his shot and got toasted, and in a year... he will lose his job because of it. And to me, thats awesome because he is a fuckin snake that deserves everything thats happening this season. Taking a line from Numb here but Karma sure is a bitch!


Oh and.. HE DIDNT FUCKING FIX US FROM LAST SEASON! He left our shit ass pass rush be even worse off even though he knew KGB was aging and he didnt fix our run D... yea, GREAT GM!

You didn't see this coming until he traded BF away. Because unlike most of us, you thought that 13-3 was a direct reflection of having BF at quarterback rather than a complete team effort. Don't even try to lie about it Paco, that is why you are mad at TT. It has nothing to do with our defense. Our defense was fine last year - it needed no fixing. It didn't become broken until this season. That's not what you are pissed about though, is it? No, your frustration is simply because your boyhood idol was traded to New York.

TT wasn't supposed to fix us from last season. We were 13-3 last year. How much can you fucking fix with 13-3? Seriously man, do you know how rediculous that sounds? "Oh we lost the NFC Championship game, time to overhaul our defense!" Do you realize that's what you sound like right now?

Our shit ass pass rush that ranked amongst the league best in sacks last year? Make wholesale changes to that? Really? KGB was aging, but he still accounted for nine and a half fucking sacks last year. There was no reason to believe he couldn't come in and perform this year. We didn't know until this year, and to act like you saw this shit coming is laughable at best. You are no fucking prophet Paco. You aren't even smart, you just happen to get lucky sometimes. If half of the games we lost in the final minutes of games this year had went the other way, we'd be staring at another division title and your arguement would have no merit whatsoever. You keep using hindsight in your arguement - OH LOOK AT OUR SHIT D LINE THIS YEAR - totally forgetting that it was a pretty dominant D line last year.


:bs2: :bs2: :bs2: :bs2:


haha you can't have it bother ways bud! You cant play the what if game and pretend thats whats going on here. TT fucked up, the day you realize it will be step one towards seeing the light. Hell ya I was/am pissed he traded Favre away but if you couldn't see that last year we were a mediocre D then I don't know what to tell ya but you are dead wrong if you think I liked TT before the Favre fiasco. I haven't liked much he's done so far. I was one person last season that though a lot of luck bounced our way and we weren't that good.

[Freak Out]

Fuck a duck wankers...none of you can take a joke anymore. I guess that's what losing does to a fan base though.

[rbaloha1]

Last year the breaks went our way. This season its not. BF's leadership and ability to make plays the majority of the time greatly contributed to victories.

Shared Blame is as follows:

TT assembled a young and talented roster. Failed to provide veteran leadership. Gambled by not having a veteran backup qb.

MM's offense does not always to appear in sync. While the numbers look good the offense fails in crucial times. MM does not always "dial-up" the right plays as opposed to last season. Sometimes too conservative.

BS calls the right defenses but guys misplay gaps and assignments. Injuries have hurt tremendously. IMO the defense is the largest contributor for the poor season.

[Gunakor]

No, everyone wasnt. Some people, believe it or not, actually saw this shit coming. There would be a tumble effect, most the time there is. He took his shot and got toasted, and in a year... he will lose his job because of it. And to me, thats awesome because he is a fuckin snake that deserves everything thats happening this season. Taking a line from Numb here but Karma sure is a bitch!


Oh and.. HE DIDNT FUCKING FIX US FROM LAST SEASON! He left our shit ass pass rush be even worse off even though he knew KGB was aging and he didnt fix our run D... yea, GREAT GM!

You didn't see this coming until he traded BF away. Because unlike most of us, you thought that 13-3 was a direct reflection of having BF at quarterback rather than a complete team effort. Don't even try to lie about it Paco, that is why you are mad at TT. It has nothing to do with our defense. Our defense was fine last year - it needed no fixing. It didn't become broken until this season. That's not what you are pissed about though, is it? No, your frustration is simply because your boyhood idol was traded to New York.

TT wasn't supposed to fix us from last season. We were 13-3 last year. How much can you fucking fix with 13-3? Seriously man, do you know how rediculous that sounds? "Oh we lost the NFC Championship game, time to overhaul our defense!" Do you realize that's what you sound like right now?

Our shit ass pass rush that ranked amongst the league best in sacks last year? Make wholesale changes to that? Really? KGB was aging, but he still accounted for nine and a half fucking sacks last year. There was no reason to believe he couldn't come in and perform this year. We didn't know until this year, and to act like you saw this shit coming is laughable at best. You are no fucking prophet Paco. You aren't even smart, you just happen to get lucky sometimes. If half of the games we lost in the final minutes of games this year had went the other way, we'd be staring at another division title and your arguement would have no merit whatsoever. You keep using hindsight in your arguement - OH LOOK AT OUR SHIT D LINE THIS YEAR - totally forgetting that it was a pretty dominant D line last year.


:bs2: :bs2: :bs2: :bs2:


haha you can't have it bother ways bud! You cant play the what if game and pretend thats whats going on here. TT fucked up, the day you realize it will be step one towards seeing the light. Hell ya I was/am pissed he traded Favre away but if you couldn't see that last year we were a mediocre D then I don't know what to tell ya but you are dead wrong if you think I liked TT before the Favre fiasco. I haven't liked much he's done so far. I was one person last season that though a lot of luck bounced our way and we weren't that good.

I stand corrected. The Green Bay Packers were in a 3 way tie last season for 13th in the NFL with 36 sacks. That is one sack behind 4 teams tied for 9th with 37, and 2 less than the Vikings at 8th place with 38.

If we take Corey Williams 7 sacks out of the equation, that leaves 29 sacks last year from players still on our roster. Which is plenty more than the 22 we've gotten from those players this year.

Last year we had 1 DE that had 12 sacks, and another that had 9.5 sacks, and a DT that had 7 sacks. On one end, Kampman has 9.5 this year. On the other... I'm not sure we've had a combined 3 sacks come from that DE position if you totalled every snap played by every player that lined up there. We have no pressure coming from any DT's on our roster. The next highest sack total on our roster after Kampman appears to be AJ Hawk and Charles Woodson with 3 - one of which came just this past weekend for both players.

I look at these concrete facts and ask myself who is to blame with the DL this season. Last year these guys were playing great - and if they came out with the same fire and gave the same production this year, we'd have little to complain about. They haven't. That falls on the players and the coaches. But I haven't found a reason to blame TT for THIS season's DL shortcomings, because these same players were more than adequate at the same positions last year. TT had nothing to fix last spring.

Look, I'm not saying TT can do no wrong. I'm saying he hasn't yet, at least as far as the DL is concerned. That said, this offseason he has some work to do. If he doesn't get it done, THEN it falls on him. I just find a hard time blaming our GM for not fixing a problem when he hasn't even had an opportunity to fix it yet. Which is the point I've been trying to make, that he hasn't had an offseason to fix our DL yet. At least give him that chance before branding him a snake and a failure.

[Gunakor]

Last year the breaks went our way. This season its not. BF's leadership and ability to make plays the majority of the time greatly contributed to victories.

Shared Blame is as follows:

TT assembled a young and talented roster. Failed to provide veteran leadership. Gambled by not having a veteran backup qb.

MM's offense does not always to appear in sync. While the numbers look good the offense fails in crucial times. MM does not always "dial-up" the right plays as opposed to last season. Sometimes too conservative.

BS calls the right defenses but guys misplay gaps and assignments. Injuries have hurt tremendously. IMO the defense is the largest contributor for the poor season.

Agreed, but how many games would a veteran backup QB have won for us this year? Rodgers has played every snap, except for one series in one game that was out of reach already anyway. Don't get me wrong, I'd have felt more comfortable with a veteran backup too, but I'm not sure how big a difference it would have made given the way this season played out.

[MOBB DEEP]

Fuck a duck wankers...none of you can take a joke anymore. I guess that's what losing does to a fan base though.

NOTHING to laugh about any more

TERRIBLE year

[MOBB DEEP]

TT is flirting at .500, which is unacceptable for the G&G, especially after taking two years to rebuild in the past 4 years.

He's not going to lose his job. Neither is MM. But blame for the season starts at the top, then goes to coaching.

Explain P. I hear you say this all the time, as if you are just spewing some company line. So tell me, after factoring in all of the intangibles such as injury and schedule, exactly how much blame can be placed on Ted Thompson? Then tell me why. Don't bring up Brett Favre, because there's nothing you can say that would convince me that the problem with this team is QB play. That's not the problem.

And after you are done ranting about all that, tell me how you expect anyone to rebuild a roster with 53 players on it in merely 2 seasons. Or 4 seasons for that matter...


who rebuilds after a 13-3 record and hosting nfccg???? thats pretty much where we are now!

at least our schedule SHOULD be easier next year...

me thinks pack will be lions only win this season

i predicted 11-5 this year with THE WHOLE TEAM returning so is sickening to watch the pack these days

DAYUM!!!

So if the WHOLE TEAM returns this season, and 13 wins becomes 5 or 6, do you blame the GM for the collaps or the players? A better way to ask this is if things didn't appear to be broken last year - especially on the defensive line - how can one blame the GM for not fixing these problems that don't appear to be broken.

I think you nailed it, although you might not realize it. You basically said the players we have are not playing up to the level they were last season, which is 100% correct. But that speaks to production, not talent. These guys are just as talented as they were last year, yet their production has gone down. That's on the coaches, not the GM. TT has put together a talented group of players - a group that, as you said, hosted the NFC Championship Game last season. TT did not fail us in that regard. TT's job is procuring talent, but it is MM's job to turn that talent into production on Sundays. MM has failed us big time by not getting these guys as prepared for gameday as they were last season.

Yeah, TT hired MM. But going back to my earlier point in this post, since it did not appear last offseason that MM was a bad choice as HC, nobody could expect TT to make a change there either. Nearly everybody from the coaches to the players that are on our roster this year were here last year, yet nearly nobody from the coaches to the players has performed up to their talent level. Is that TT's fault?

tru

[Pacopete4]

Gunkor, so its not the gm's fault for trading away a player who had 19% of our sacks last year and not replacing him..? We avg. about the same amount of sacks this season per game as we did without Williams sacks last season... oh and he never shored up our run d that wasn't good last year either.... he's a snake and hasn't done his job for either side of the line... no excuses nemore... this is year 4 times up....

[MOBB DEEP]

TT is flirting at .500, which is unacceptable for the G&G, especially after taking two years to rebuild in the past 4 years.

He's not going to lose his job. Neither is MM. But blame for the season starts at the top, then goes to coaching.

Explain P. I hear you say this all the time, as if you are just spewing some company line. So tell me, after factoring in all of the intangibles such as injury and schedule, exactly how much blame can be placed on Ted Thompson? Then tell me why. Don't bring up Brett Favre, because there's nothing you can say that would convince me that the problem with this team is QB play. That's not the problem.

And after you are done ranting about all that, tell me how you expect anyone to rebuild a roster with 53 players on it in merely 2 seasons. Or 4 seasons for that matter...


who rebuilds after a 13-3 record and hosting nfccg???? thats pretty much where we are now!

at least our schedule SHOULD be easier next year...

me thinks pack will be lions only win this season

i predicted 11-5 this year with THE WHOLE TEAM returning so is sickening to watch the pack these days

DAYUM!!!

So if the WHOLE TEAM returns this season, and 13 wins becomes 5 or 6, do you blame the GM for the collaps or the players? A better way to ask this is if things didn't appear to be broken last year - especially on the defensive line - how can one blame the GM for not fixing these problems that don't appear to be broken.

I think you nailed it, although you might not realize it. You basically said the players we have are not playing up to the level they were last season, which is 100% correct. But that speaks to production, not talent. These guys are just as talented as they were last year, yet their production has gone down. That's on the coaches, not the GM. TT has put together a talented group of players - a group that, as you said, hosted the NFC Championship Game last season. TT did not fail us in that regard. TT's job is procuring talent, but it is MM's job to turn that talent into production on Sundays. MM has failed us big time by not getting these guys as prepared for gameday as they were last season.

Yeah, TT hired MM. But going back to my earlier point in this post, since it did not appear last offseason that MM was a bad choice as HC, nobody could expect TT to make a change there either. Nearly everybody from the coaches to the players that are on our roster this year were here last year, yet nearly nobody from the coaches to the players has performed up to their talent level. Is that TT's fault?

pack swagger did leave though

[Gunakor]

Gunkor, so its not the gm's fault for trading away a player who had 19% of our sacks last year and not replacing him..? We avg. about the same amount of sacks this season per game as we did without Williams sacks last season... oh and he never shored up our run d that wasn't good last year either.... he's a snake and hasn't done his job for either side of the line... no excuses nemore... this is year 4 times up....

This is pure bullshit Paco. I suppose that KGB disappeared entirely after a fairly productive season last year because TT traded Corey Williams away. Coz, you know, it would just be too difficult to look deeper for the reason. Much easier to blame TT for trading a guy away.

I've broken down the sack statistics in my previous post. Without Williams, this team had 29 sacks last year. Without Williams, this team has 22 sacks this year - and 3 of those came from CHARLES WOODSON. I'm not saying that those don't count, but it goes to show where the pressure is coming from this year. Our Pro Bowl cornerback has more sacks on the season than either of our starting DT's or our starting RDE. Last year our DT's and RDE were very effective in getting to the QB, this year they are not. And the only change on the line has been Williams, who hasn't done a damn thing for Cleveland all year.

Paco, Corey Williams proved himself to be a very capable backup last year. But when he was named the starter in the second half of the season his production plummeted. I don't think he had a single sack in the last month of the season or the playoffs. And to further prove that point, now that he's a regular starter in Cleveland, he stinks. Not just below average - no, I mean he shouldn't be starting. Not for Cleveland, not for us.

Our run D was average last year. Not great, but not especially poor either. Why don't you go ahead and look up the defensive rushing statistics from last year. Game by game or the overall season totals, it doesn't matter. Do it, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

[Gunakor]

TT is flirting at .500, which is unacceptable for the G&G, especially after taking two years to rebuild in the past 4 years.

He's not going to lose his job. Neither is MM. But blame for the season starts at the top, then goes to coaching.

Explain P. I hear you say this all the time, as if you are just spewing some company line. So tell me, after factoring in all of the intangibles such as injury and schedule, exactly how much blame can be placed on Ted Thompson? Then tell me why. Don't bring up Brett Favre, because there's nothing you can say that would convince me that the problem with this team is QB play. That's not the problem.

And after you are done ranting about all that, tell me how you expect anyone to rebuild a roster with 53 players on it in merely 2 seasons. Or 4 seasons for that matter...


who rebuilds after a 13-3 record and hosting nfccg???? thats pretty much where we are now!

at least our schedule SHOULD be easier next year...

me thinks pack will be lions only win this season

i predicted 11-5 this year with THE WHOLE TEAM returning so is sickening to watch the pack these days

DAYUM!!!

So if the WHOLE TEAM returns this season, and 13 wins becomes 5 or 6, do you blame the GM for the collaps or the players? A better way to ask this is if things didn't appear to be broken last year - especially on the defensive line - how can one blame the GM for not fixing these problems that don't appear to be broken.

I think you nailed it, although you might not realize it. You basically said the players we have are not playing up to the level they were last season, which is 100% correct. But that speaks to production, not talent. These guys are just as talented as they were last year, yet their production has gone down. That's on the coaches, not the GM. TT has put together a talented group of players - a group that, as you said, hosted the NFC Championship Game last season. TT did not fail us in that regard. TT's job is procuring talent, but it is MM's job to turn that talent into production on Sundays. MM has failed us big time by not getting these guys as prepared for gameday as they were last season.

Yeah, TT hired MM. But going back to my earlier point in this post, since it did not appear last offseason that MM was a bad choice as HC, nobody could expect TT to make a change there either. Nearly everybody from the coaches to the players that are on our roster this year were here last year, yet nearly nobody from the coaches to the players has performed up to their talent level. Is that TT's fault?

pack swagger did leave though

Ted Thompson is not responsible for the Packers swagger. Coaches, to a limited extent, maybe. But IMO the players are responsible for that one themselves. If this team lost its swagger, it is up to the players to get it back. Not the coaches, really, and certainly not the GM.

[PackerBlues]

I wonder if it would have helped all of these young players on this young team to have more veterans to look up to. Competing amongst themselves for a position is one thing, striving to be as good as a proven veteran though......

[Gunakor]

I wonder if it would have helped all of these young players on this young team to have more veterans to look up to. Competing amongst themselves for a position is one thing, striving to be as good as a proven veteran though......

There's veterans in the defensive backfield in Al Harris and Charles Woodson. There's veterans on the LB corps in Nick Barnett and Brandon Chillar. There's veterans on the DL in Ryan Pickett and Aaron Kampman. And yet our defense is bottom third in the NFL. I mean, maybe if it was the offense that was struggling and the defense that was playing well I could agree with you, but the youth of this team is on the offense and the offense is doing just fine. It is the more veteran group that is struggling the most.

[Bretsky]

With all this being said this is the last dam year I want to hear the "we're the youngest team in the NFL" talk

[Gunakor]

With all this being said this is the last dam year I want to hear the "we're the youngest team in the NFL" talk

Read my previous post B. The youth isn't the problem either. It's the more veteran group that is struggling the most. The LB's, the OT's, the DL... That's where the veterans are and that's where the biggest problems have come from. I don't have a problem being the youngest team in the league if the young players on the youngest team in the league are playing well.

[Pugger]

Give it up Gunakor. These fellas would never admit that the only reason they hate TT is he traded away BF. End of story. :roll:

[The Shadow]

Give it up Gunakor. These fellas would never admit that the only reason they hate TT is he traded away BF. End of story. :roll:

Sad, but completely true. The Cult will never forgive, even though the move was an extremely good move.

[retailguy]

Give it up Gunakor. These fellas would never admit that the only reason they hate TT is he traded away BF. End of story. :roll:


I don't dislike Ted because he traded Favre. I think that was the right move. There are plenty of other questionable moves that he's made.

Next year, we'll see what happens.

[Bretsky]

Give it up Gunakor. These fellas would never admit that the only reason they hate TT is he traded away BF. End of story. :roll:


:bs2:


First off I'm in the middle on TT; but it's pretty well documented I was not a lover WAY before any of this Favre nonsense started up. My views on TT have improved from two years ago.....again........WAY before the Favre stuff started up

[Bretsky]

With all this being said this is the last dam year I want to hear the "we're the youngest team in the NFL" talk

Read my previous post B. The youth isn't the problem either. It's the more veteran group that is struggling the most. The LB's, the OT's, the DL... That's where the veterans are and that's where the biggest problems have come from. I don't have a problem being the youngest team in the league if the young players on the youngest team in the league are playing well.


Part of the problem is the youth note developing as we figured it would...or taking longer. I do think TT will see more urgency this year and play in free agency instead of the draft game for the future....figuring he's OK at all the positions because players will develop.

With a good offseason this team can get right back into the playoffs next year and be dangerous.

[esoxx]

Give it up Gunakor. These fellas would never admit that the only reason they hate TT is he traded away BF. End of story. :roll:

:bs:

[GBRulz]

Give it up Gunakor. These fellas would never admit that the only reason they hate TT is he traded away BF. End of story. :roll:

I disagree. Those of us who have been less than thrilled with TT have expressed so way before the BF soap opera began.

Our team is quite possibly on the verge of going from 13-3 to 5-11. That is absolutely inexcusable. It's time to stop stock piling draft picks and start to fill some holes with veteran leadership. I'm not saying break the bank, but there has to be a balance here.

Where do we have the most veteran leadership on our team? Is it just a coincidence that it is also where we excel?

[wist43]

I blame TT more than anybody else... for all the reasons stated repeatedly in this thread.

Word is, Sanders is out as DC... I'll believe it when I see it.

They have so many holes to fill... don't see how they can possibly get all of the existing holes filled, and at the same time fill holes that will come about b/c of FA loss, or loss of production due to age.

They are weak at DT, missing on Harrell is killing them; both corners will be history w/in two years, with no real replacements on the roster (maybe Williams); Clifton and Taush are at the end, and the OL as a whole has been very shaky; et al.

That's a lot to overcome in a short amount of time... we're already looking 2-3 years down the road - years 6-7 of TT's regime.

[Partial]

Give it up Gunakor. These fellas would never admit that the only reason they hate TT is he traded away BF. End of story. :roll:

Sad, but completely true. The Cult will never forgive, even though the move was an extremely good move.

Extremely good move? How so? We are getting a third round pick, fine, we'll add another backup safety to the mix.

People don't like TT because he hasn't done anything yet. He took a team to the championship game on the arm of the guy they traded away, then they came back and followed it up with a dissapointing campaign.

Personally, I don't care anymore that they traded Favre. I'm over it. TT has shown that he isn't bullet prove with suspect drafts and a lack of free agent signings thus far. If he intends to build primarily through the draft, he needs to work harder, study more, and become better at drafting.

4 seasons in, his record is 30-33 at this point. While the first year he doesn't get all of the blame for, he still has been over .500 one of the three years.

So far TT has been about average, it would be difficult to dispute that to this point, but he still has time to show that he is better than that.

Personally, I believe that once it is decided that someone is average after having a period to show what they are capable of, you've got to move on. Average isn't good enough to win super bowls in the NFL.

[cpk1994]

Give it up Gunakor. These fellas would never admit that the only reason they hate TT is he traded away BF. End of story. :roll:


:bs2:


First off I'm in the middle on TT; but it's pretty well documented I was not a lover WAY before any of this Favre nonsense started up. My views on TT have improved from two years ago.....again........WAY before the Favre stuff started upI wouldn't say its BS. While it may not apply to you, it applies to others *cough* Paco *cough*. *cough* Partial *cough*.

[Bretsky]

Give it up Gunakor. These fellas would never admit that the only reason they hate TT is he traded away BF. End of story. :roll:


:bs2:


First off I'm in the middle on TT; but it's pretty well documented I was not a lover WAY before any of this Favre nonsense started up. My views on TT have improved from two years ago.....again........WAY before the Favre stuff started upI wouldn't say its BS. While it may not apply to you, it applies to others *cough* Paco *cough*. *cough* Partial *cough*.


I honestly do not remember Paco's views before Favre's departure

But I would attest that Partial had beef's with TT far before the Favre conflict

[GrnBay007]

Give it up Gunakor. These fellas would never admit that the only reason they hate TT is he traded away BF. End of story. :roll:


:bs2:


First off I'm in the middle on TT; but it's pretty well documented I was not a lover WAY before any of this Favre nonsense started up. My views on TT have improved from two years ago.....again........WAY before the Favre stuff started upI wouldn't say its BS. While it may not apply to you, it applies to others *cough* Paco *cough*. *cough* Partial *cough*.

Good Lord People!!!! WHO CARES if or why people might not like TT. That is their decision/opinion. Who are any of you to say who's right or wrong? It's an opinion for Christ's sake! This board might get back to the quality it used to be if people would be able to state their opinion without being bashed all over the place.

This is a Packer forum.........not a TT, AR love fest board!!!

[gex]

Give it up Gunakor. These fellas would never admit that the only reason they hate TT is he traded away BF. End of story. :roll:


:bs2:


First off I'm in the middle on TT; but it's pretty well documented I was not a lover WAY before any of this Favre nonsense started up. My views on TT have improved from two years ago.....again........WAY before the Favre stuff started upI wouldn't say its BS. While it may not apply to you, it applies to others *cough* Paco *cough*. *cough* Partial *cough*.

Good Lord People!!!! WHO CARES if or why people might not like TT. That is their decision/opinion. Who are any of you to say who's right or wrong? It's an opinion for Christ's sake! This board might get back to the quality it used to be if people would be able to state their opinion without being bashed all over the place.

This is a Packer forum.........not a TT, AR love fest board!!!

:bclap: :bclap: :bclap: :bclap:

[cpk1994]

Give it up Gunakor. These fellas would never admit that the only reason they hate TT is he traded away BF. End of story. :roll:


:bs2:


First off I'm in the middle on TT; but it's pretty well documented I was not a lover WAY before any of this Favre nonsense started up. My views on TT have improved from two years ago.....again........WAY before the Favre stuff started upI wouldn't say its BS. While it may not apply to you, it applies to others *cough* Paco *cough*. *cough* Partial *cough*.

Good Lord People!!!! WHO CARES if or why people might not like TT. That is their decision/opinion. Who are any of you to say who's right or wrong? It's an opinion for Christ's sake! This board might get back to the quality it used to be if people would be able to state their opinion without being bashed all over the place.

This is a Packer forum.........not a TT, AR love fest board!!!Yeah, and it isn't a Favre love fest board either. :roll:

[GrnBay007]

Give it up Gunakor. These fellas would never admit that the only reason they hate TT is he traded away BF. End of story. :roll:


:bs2:


First off I'm in the middle on TT; but it's pretty well documented I was not a lover WAY before any of this Favre nonsense started up. My views on TT have improved from two years ago.....again........WAY before the Favre stuff started upI wouldn't say its BS. While it may not apply to you, it applies to others *cough* Paco *cough*. *cough* Partial *cough*.

Good Lord People!!!! WHO CARES if or why people might not like TT. That is their decision/opinion. Who are any of you to say who's right or wrong? It's an opinion for Christ's sake! This board might get back to the quality it used to be if people would be able to state their opinion without being bashed all over the place.

This is a Packer forum.........not a TT, AR love fest board!!!Yeah, and it isn't a Favre love fest board either. :roll:

LOL ...and looks who keeps bringing his name up. Lately it's the stat mongers.

[BZnDallas]

hey ladies and gents... i'm back!!... i've been having some computer problems lately so haven't been able to give my excellent and much missed opinions on the pack... i only skimmed through the 9 pages before i decided to give my blame for this year... although it isn't all his fault i believe alot of the blame lies on Bob Sanders... his defense has played very shitty in the 4th quarter this year... AR and our offense has had the lead or tied in something like 6 or 7 of our losses this year and the defense has blown it...

now being down here in dallas, i have gotten a much unwanted view of how the dallas D has been playing lately and since Wade Phillips has taken over they have really improved... I know Jerry Jones has said that WP isn't going anywhere but i wouldn't trust JJ for shit!... in my opinion i would love it if JJ fired WP and Ted & Mike hired him to take over for our defense... i know we run a 4-3 and Phillips is best in a 3-4 scheme but the man knows defense and he might be able to run a hybrid of both with some of the skill players we have on that side of the ball... i know some of you will bitch b/c that is what we do on here but its just one mans opinion... thanks alot and i'm glad to be back - hopefully!... hahaha

[Gunakor]

Give it up Gunakor. These fellas would never admit that the only reason they hate TT is he traded away BF. End of story. :roll:


:bs2:


First off I'm in the middle on TT; but it's pretty well documented I was not a lover WAY before any of this Favre nonsense started up. My views on TT have improved from two years ago.....again........WAY before the Favre stuff started upI wouldn't say its BS. While it may not apply to you, it applies to others *cough* Paco *cough*. *cough* Partial *cough*.

Good Lord People!!!! WHO CARES if or why people might not like TT. That is their decision/opinion. Who are any of you to say who's right or wrong? It's an opinion for Christ's sake! This board might get back to the quality it used to be if people would be able to state their opinion without being bashed all over the place.

This is a Packer forum.........not a TT, AR love fest board!!!Yeah, and it isn't a Favre love fest board either. :roll:

LOL ...and looks who keeps bringing his name up. Lately it's the stat mongers.

It's not just the stat mongers. I don't know if you've realized, but some of the people we argue with are just as likely to bring Brett into a conversation to smear the Packers as CPK is to smear Favre. CPK mentioned a couple of them in his response to Bretsky. While I think Partial is far less guilty of doing this than CPK says he is, Paco is absolutely the worst poster here as far as bringing Brett into threads - and does so specifically to smear TT and AR. I don't see how that's any different than CPK bringing Favre into threads to argue his position.

My idea would simply be to go with the "This is a Packer forum" theory and just keep Favre out of all threads, both positive and negative. I mean, after all, Favre is a Jet. Not a Packer. I think removing Favre related material from every post made from here on out would be best to keep the bickering and arguing to a minimum.

[retailguy]

Gunakor,

we can't do that. First off, SkinBasket would die of a heart attack. Second, Favre has meant more to this team than anyone since probably Vince Lombardi. (Note, that's MY opinion.)

Finally, people need to do a better job of policing themselves. If someone wants to bring up Favre to bash Thompson, just IGNORE it.

We police in the background. Several people are periodically warned, some only once, others... well, much more than that.

Talking about Brett Favre in a Packers forum? Ought to be just fine.

We should listen to 007. The voice of reason. CPK, you look downright silly arguing with her. She kicked your tail with both hands tied behind her back. And you, poking fun at PACO? LOL. Pot meet kettle.

[Partial]

Gunakor,

we can't do that. First off, SkinBasket would die of a heart attack. Second, Favre has meant more to this team than anyone since probably Vince Lombardi. (Note, that's MY opinion.)

Finally, people need to do a better job of policing themselves. If someone wants to bring up Favre to bash Thompson, just IGNORE it.

We police in the background. Several people are periodically warned, some only once, others... well, much more than that.

Talking about Brett Favre in a Packers forum? Ought to be just fine.

We should listen to 007. The voice of reason. CPK, you look downright silly arguing with her. She kicked your tail with both hands tied behind her back. And you, poking fun at PACO? LOL. Pot meet kettle.

smart man right here.

[Gunakor]

Gunakor,

we can't do that. First off, SkinBasket would die of a heart attack. Second, Favre has meant more to this team than anyone since probably Vince Lombardi. (Note, that's MY opinion.)

Finally, people need to do a better job of policing themselves. If someone wants to bring up Favre to bash Thompson, just IGNORE it.

We police in the background. Several people are periodically warned, some only once, others... well, much more than that.

Talking about Brett Favre in a Packers forum? Ought to be just fine.

We should listen to 007. The voice of reason. CPK, you look downright silly arguing with her. She kicked your tail with both hands tied behind her back. And you, poking fun at PACO? LOL. Pot meet kettle.

007 is a great poster here. I have nothing at all to say negatively about her. That said, she and others cannot only allow the Favre related material that agrees with their point of view while telling detractors to keep their thoughts out of this board. If we are to just ignore those who post Favre related material to smear TT and MM, then I'd expect you guys to just ignore Favre related material that smears Brett Favre. If you want CPK and I and others to just ignore Paco, then I'd hope you and 007 and others could just ignore CPK. That sounds like a fair solution to me if we want to keep allowing Favre discussion here at PR.

[cpk1994]

Gunakor,

we can't do that. First off, SkinBasket would die of a heart attack. Second, Favre has meant more to this team than anyone since probably Vince Lombardi. (Note, that's MY opinion.)

Finally, people need to do a better job of policing themselves. If someone wants to bring up Favre to bash Thompson, just IGNORE it.

We police in the background. Several people are periodically warned, some only once, others... well, much more than that.

Talking about Brett Favre in a Packers forum? Ought to be just fine.

We should listen to 007. The voice of reason. CPK, you look downright silly arguing with her. She kicked your tail with both hands tied behind her back. And you, poking fun at PACO? LOL. Pot meet kettle.

1. I wasn't arguing with 007. I merely pointed out that while she mentioned it shouldn't be a Rodgers/ARod lovefest board, it shouldn't be a Favre lovefest board either, which is what she has been guilty of at times.

2. As far as Paco goes, he ADMITTED he was a troll. He ADMITS he hates ARod. So, of cousre I am going to poke at him. Thats what he wants.

[GrnBay007]

1. I wasn't arguing with 007. I merely pointed out that while she mentioned it shouldn't be a Rodgers/ARod lovefest board, it shouldn't be a Favre lovefest board either, which is what she has been guilty of at times.


I'm pretty sure I've keep everything Brett Favre in the Favre thread....which I thought was an "agreement" we all had here.

The only reason I said that about the TT/AR lovefest board is because it seems anyone questioning them or maybe even not liking them is called out, sometimes ridiculed and thrown to the lions. Not everyone that doesn't care for TT is upset at him for trading Favre. And even it if is their reason....it's an opinion. Everyone deserves to have one!

[cpk1994]

1. I wasn't arguing with 007. I merely pointed out that while she mentioned it shouldn't be a Rodgers/ARod lovefest board, it shouldn't be a Favre lovefest board either, which is what she has been guilty of at times.


I'm pretty sure I've keep everything Brett Favre in the Favre thread....which I thought was an "agreement" we all had here.

The only reason I said that about the TT/AR lovefest board is because it seems anyone questioning them or maybe even not liking them is called out, sometimes ridiculed and thrown to the lions. Not everyone that doesn't care for TT is upset at him for trading Favre. And even it if is their reason....it's an opinion. Everyone deserves to have one!ANd thats fine. But when you bash Arod in order to smear and take shots at TT and MM(Paco and others)becuase you are pissed that they traded Favre thats no longer an opinion. Thats what I take issue with.

[GrnBay007]

I haven't bashed AR. But you just go ahead and think that way. I'm out of this conversation.....it's just nonsense and dragging it on and on.

[cpk1994]

I haven't bashed AR. But you just go ahead and think that way. I'm out of this conversation.....it's just nonsense and dragging it on and on.I never said you did. But there are those(and you know who you are) that have.

[GrnBay007]

I haven't bashed AR. But you just go ahead and think that way. I'm out of this conversation.....it's just nonsense and dragging it on and on.I never said you did. But there are those(and you know who you are) that have.

So then why bring out the worst in yourself... just because others do? Take the high road....it will make you feel good. :D

[PackerBlues]

I have nothing against Arod, I think he did real good this year playing within the system. I do think that he needs to develop better pocket presence.

As far as Thompson, this should be the year that he goes out and gets some veteran talent. While I have bitched about this for quite a while, now I think it would be in Thompsons best interest to look for a big name player to appease the fans. If going from 13-3 to 6-10 isnt enough to light a fire under his ass to bring in better talent........ :roll:

[Bub]

I think the reason for our disappointing season is the number of penalties we had this year. It seemed like whenever we had a big play or big stop, a penalty would bail out the other team. Given the number of close games we were in this year, a few more calls going our way could have turned some of those games around.

As much as I don't like blaming the coaching staff for this, it's really their fault. This really needs to be a focus of the off season. No more stupid penalties.

[Bub]

I think the reason for our disappointing season is the number of penalties we had this year. It seemed like whenever we had a big play or big stop, a penalty would bail out the other team. Given the number of close games we were in this year, a few more calls going our way could have turned some of those games around.

As much as I don't like blaming the coaching staff for this, it's really their fault. This really needs to be a focus of the off season. No more stupid penalties.

This could also have to do with the youth of our team, even though our veterans like Cliffy and Harris had more then their fair share of flags.

[Gunakor]

As far as Thompson, this should be the year that he goes out and gets some veteran talent. While I have bitched about this for quite a while, now I think it would be in Thompsons best interest to look for a big name player to appease the fans. If going from 13-3 to 6-10 isnt enough to light a fire under his ass to bring in better talent........ :roll:

I agree with you. It's a lot easier to notice where the holes are on your team after a 6-10 season than it is when you finish 13-3, which is why I don't blame Thompson for what did and did not transpire last offseason. But it is also why I am holding his feet to the fire this offseason. The problems are much more evident now, and now that we know what they are, they must be fixed.

If after the disappointment that was 2008 these problems are not fixed, I and many other Thompson supporters will hold Thompson responsible for not doing so. His legacy hinges on what happens between now and next August. He doesn't have to win a Super Bowl next season, but he must fill the holes on this team that have become ever more glaring since the end of the 2007 season. If he fails, that's what he'll be remembered as here in Green Bay. If he succeeds, Packer Nation will acknowlege that success. It's all dependent on what he does or doesn't do in the coming months.