Obama Staffers Sexually Assault Hillary Clinton!!

[Kiwon]

Remember all the angst by the PR liberals over the "hanging" of an Obama cutout in the middle of the night that was seen by maybe ten people......?

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?t=14872

WELL.....I guess they will soil themselves over the sexual assault (maybe rape, these are Obama staffers we're talking about) of future Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton. Just imagine, the former First Lady, a Senator, now involuntarily the subject of some MILF action by Obama's CHIEF SPEECHWRITER Jon Favreau!! Tsk, tsk, tsk. The Democratic "culture of depravity."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2008/12/04/PH2008120403612.jpg

The news of the Obama cutout prank (seen by next to no one) made the local media and upset the progressive set in Oregon who used the stunt to smear Christians as racists. OPF's title for his thread, "Racist Act at Oregon Christian College"

Hmm...what title would be appropriate in this case? How about "Obama Staffers are Sexually Deviants" for this one? Or maybe "The Obama Administration Harbors Rapists" as a title? Or how about "The Obama Team's Misogynistic Ways Continue."

Yo, PR libs, a woman is being sexually assaulted here according to your criteria of reality.

Will you stand by and do nothing? Where is your sense of outrage over female cutout abuse? A powerful woman is being demeaned. Non-Christian, Democratic drunks have treated women like this for years. This is the future of feminism? More abuse by non-Christian, Democrats? Speak up, stand up against the hatred of women.

PR libs, demand that Obama fire his CHIEF SPEECHWRITER Jon Favreau and categorically state that he has zero tolerance for the mistreatment of women in his administration.

Obama may let his favorite rappers may get away with calling women "bitches" and "whores," but the first Black president has to take a stand and protect women. Stop the non-Christian, Democratic hatred of women, Obama.

Hillary put "17 million cracks in the glass ceiling" but misogyny runs deep with Democrats. It may be Jon Favreau’s hand on Hillary Clinton’s cardboard breast, but you Obama supporters put it there. Learn to respect women.

[arcilite]

lol

[sheepshead]

Understand this loud and clear, there will be no besmirching The One. Not now not ever. Don't ask him any questions. Just faint and fill up stadiums.

[texaspackerbacker]

Frankly, I don't give a damn.

The only think here that interests me is: how do you pronounce that guy's name--Favreau?

[MJZiggy]

Remind me again for how many decades government officials in business attire were systematically sexually abused?

You can do better than this.

[Joemailman]

Kiwon seems more upset about this than the Clinton camp:



The Washington Post reports that Jon Favreau, chief speechwriter for President-elect Barack Obama, was caught partying with a cardboard cutout of Hillary Clinton in some interesting Facebook photos.

Asked about the photos, Favreau, who was recently appointed director of speechwriting for the White House, declined comment. A transition official said that Favreau had "reached out to Senator Clinton to offer an apology."

The Post adds that Clinton's team is taking the matter lightly. "Senator Clinton is pleased to learn of Jon's obvious interest in the State Department, and is currently reviewing his application," said Clinton senior adviser Philippe Reines.

[oregonpackfan]

Kiwon, perhaps you should hook up with Tex. The two of you seem to have a lot in common. :roll:

[hoosier]

All I can say is that it's plain as day from here that Kiwon is seething with jealousy.

[Kiwon]

¿Cuál es el problema, situational ethicists?

Certain standards apply in one case but not the other. Building houses on shifting sands, are we?

In addition to OPF's bigoted title, we have this gem:


You would think that at a CHRISTIAN college, they would be teaching crazy things like tolerance, acceptance and right from wrong. Why does that kind of stuff sound so familiar...?

My turn, "You would think that enlightened Obama staffers, such as his chief speechwriter, who are clever enough to not be bound by traditional values or religion, but instinctively aware of the consciousness-transforming symbolism of America electing a person POTUS whose skin pigmentation is not "white," would be the epitome of things like tolerance, acceptance and respect for women. Instead they shamelessly and consistently fail to live out the values they espouse for others. Why does that kind of stuff sound so familiar...?"

I had to drop the "right from wrong" phrase because we all know that it doesn't apply with moral relativists. It's useful to demagogue with when a few students at a Christian college act up, but non-Christians are given a pass (Cf. the comments above) because you can't be held accountable and accused of hypocrisy when you have no firm moral standards.

Two college pranks, one is a serious indication of widespread racism in your view and the other is harmless fun. Why? You don’t know why. You just feel that way. Is it hypocritical for you to judge? No, of course not. Hypocrisy only applies when it comes to impugning others, not yourselves.

[MJZiggy]

I cannot fathom that you don't get the distinction. I gave you too much credit. If you can't figure out why a public display depicting an act of violence that was quite often carried out against a group of people in the very same way that their prank is carried out--not to mention the hypocritical suggestion of racial violence from so-called Christian students is different than a private party and kissing the ear of a figure because you're drunk and someone happens to snap a picture.

Don't you get the distinction? Don't you get the decades upon decades of violence that one of those acts depicts and suggests said violence is a a good idea by the inference that accompanies it? It's not that hard a distinction to make. I know you can do it.

[swede]

I cannot fathom that you don't get the distinction. I gave you too much credit. If you can't figure out why a public display depicting an act of violence that was quite often carried out against a group of people in the very same way that their prank is carried out--not to mention the hypocritical suggestion of racial violence from so-called Christian students is different than a private party and kissing the ear of a figure because you're drunk and someone happens to snap a picture.

Don't you get the distinction? Don't you get the decades upon decades of violence that one of those acts depicts and suggests said violence is a a good idea by the inference that accompanies it? It's not that hard a distinction to make. I know you can do it.

Wow. You guys do this so effortlessly. It really is a talent with liberals.

[MJZiggy]

I'm not a liberal. I just hate stupidity.

[swede]

From the Liberal Dictionary of Liberalisms:

stupid: adj; anyone who does not agree with a liberal. :)



I know you're not a liberal Zig.

You didn't agree with Tank very often and he was an extreme liberal as I recall.

[texaspackerbacker]

If it walks and talks and quacks and posts like a liberal, it might just be that dirty word. I'll say this, though: you gotta respect anybody who detests having the rotten label of "liberal".

I just want to know, is the guy's name pronounced FAVRE-O, or some other way?

[Kiwon]

I'm not a liberal. I just hate stupidity.

You must be self-loathing then.

http://blog.oregonlive.com/news_impact/2008/09/large__MG_8866.JPG

Hey, Ms. Moderate (who consistently agrees with liberals), how much sunlight is there between 2 am and 7 am?

Your so-called "public" consists of the four students that did the prank and maybe six members of the maintenance crew that took it down.

4 + 6, um..er..OMG!...that's 10 people!! (BTW, where are the photos??)

Hillary's "assault" by the Obaminations was on Facebook, The Washington Post, Drudge Report and has been seen by millions of people in one day.

Do you get the distinction between one zero and 6 zeroes?

Bonus round: Do you know the difference between cardboard and a living human? The hypocrisy is on YOUR side. Equal angst over both or none at all.

I would not worry about imaginary violence with cutouts when you have people like these running around glorifying real violence.

Spend a few minutes at this website:

http://ghettobraggingrights.wordpress.com/ghetto-bragging-rights-sexiest-hardest-ghetto-black-male-felons/

http://ghettobraggingrights.wordpress.com/

[Harlan Huckleby]

shocking, shocking.

[MJZiggy]

Intent, Kiwon. The kids at the school INTENDED for their display to be seen. They merely failed. The guys at the party were drinking at a private function. They had no intent for what they were doing to be photographed or to hit the press. Remind me again where their suggestion of violence was?

The suggestion of violence against a representative of the one you want to commit the violence against is still a suggesting to others that this is what you feel is appropriate. Again INTENT. And if you think the school kids didn't get their message across, do realize that we're still here talking about it how many months later? I can understand how a cardboard cutout happens to be at an Obama staff party. Can you tell me how a life sized Obama cutout happens to be at this campus? Hung from a tree with a racial statement attached to it?

That you can't tell the difference between malice of intent, hypocrisy and a drunken joke at a party says a lot about your interpretive skills.

[bobblehead]

Intent, Kiwon. The kids at the school INTENDED for their display to be seen. They merely failed. The guys at the party were drinking at a private function. They had no intent for what they were doing to be photographed or to hit the press. Remind me again where their suggestion of violence was?

The suggestion of violence against a representative of the one you want to commit the violence against is still a suggesting to others that this is what you feel is appropriate. Again INTENT. And if you think the school kids didn't get their message across, do realize that we're still here talking about it how many months later? I can understand how a cardboard cutout happens to be at an Obama staff party. Can you tell me how a life sized Obama cutout happens to be at this campus? Hung from a tree with a racial statement attached to it?

That you can't tell the difference between malice of intent, hypocrisy and a drunken joke at a party says a lot about your interpretive skills.

Did you even read this...he put it on facebook, he certainly did intend for it to be seen.

If this were trent lott with a cutout of a pretend female (not even a real person) and no hand on the breast, just his arm around it, the libs would start playing 6 degrees to mysogony. We would start hearing the stories about the history of cardboard cutouts of women and how Trent was secretly harboring feelings of hatred towards women as is obvious because its a cutout instead of a real woman. Libs would be demanding he immediately resign from the senate.

[MJZiggy]

Considering that Tank used to post here, it really says something when I say that this is the dumbest conversation I've ever seen on this forum. I'm done with it.

[RashanGary]

I think it's funny and I don't think he should be fired. If he was a conservative, I would think he should be fired because their base is the lunitic religous fringe and he wouldn't be representing their party very well.

The rest of us good humored adults who can take a joke, we can continue to vote liberal and our guys can continue to have a sense of humor without the a prudish base to pull us down.


Bravo Libs. Great year for us. Hahaha. . . Haha. That's how I feel right now as a liberal. Ha.

[Kiwon]

Intent, Kiwon. The kids at the school INTENDED for their display to be seen. They merely failed. The guys at the party were drinking at a private function. They had no intent for what they were doing to be photographed or to hit the press. Remind me again where their suggestion of violence was?

The suggestion of violence against a representative of the one you want to commit the violence against is still a suggesting to others that this is what you feel is appropriate. Again INTENT.

MJZ, you are all over the map (which is to be expected with liberals, er, "moderates" in your case, who make up the rules as they go along).

INTENT? Now this is funny.

You say, "They had no intent for what they were doing to be photographed or to hit the press." - Ah, that explains why Jon Favreau posed for a photograph and posted it on his Facebook page. Yhello?

You say, "Remind me again where their suggestion of violence was?" - I don't know how you like to spend your weekends but I don't think most women would want one guy grabbing their breast and another guy licking their ear at a party and being photographed.

Now maybe that looks like normal behavior to you but it's a sexual assault if unwelcomed.

You say, "The suggestion of violence against a representative of the one you want to commit the violence against is still a suggesting to others that this is what you feel is appropriate. Again INTENT." - So why didn't these Obaminations grope and photograph themselves with a bookshelf or a potted plant.

Why did they choose a cutout of Hillary Clinton? What was their suggestive intent? As Obama supporters, wasn't their intent to demean Hillary Clinton, an Obama rival? Were they suggesting to others through their actions that it's okay to sexually assault Hillary Clinton?

Again, maybe the mistreatment of women looks normal to you. It does to a lot of Dems. These Obama guys look like they are practicing their date rape techniques. But that’s A-Okay with you because it's just a cardboard cutout.

However, those Christian college students, now they are the scum of the earth. Imagine "borrowing" an Obama cutout from a local business and suspending it from a tree in the middle of the night. And the audacity to not even post the pictures!

That cutout could have been killed! Those sadists! Burn in Hell, Christians! But wait, there is no Hell, ……is there?

Well, there's always the court system. The Obama cutout (a real person to you) could still take them to court. I think hoosier is busy working on a "human rights" for cutouts campaign.

Ah, the slippery slope, MJZ (or sloppy seconds with Obama staffers). Either two crimes with cutouts were committed or they were both pranks. You just can’t have it both ways.

SORRY, we do live in a moral universe. :(

[RashanGary]

Man, you must be a real loser, Kiwon. You couldn't picture yoruself posing iwth your hand on Hillary's poster boob after you've had a few. I think it's funny and harmless. When eveyrone was together for the poster game I had a fuzzy ball and I pretended I was a girl on this board and I put the fuzzy ball near my mouth pretending I loved Brett Favre. It's called a joke. Funny. Esspecially funny when you've had a few beers. Brett Favre probably wouldn't want me licking is nutz but that's probalby why I would never acctually do it in real life.

Now if they tied it up and took pictures of them punching her face, holding her down at gun point, choking her and forcing their dicks in her ass it would be sick as hell whether it was real or not, it's just sort of sickening to me and as far as I can predict, I think it would be sick to just about anyone I know.

They were laughing and grabbing her juicy boob in a joking, funny manner. Plus she's kinda cute for an older lady. I'd grab her boob if she let me too.


Grabbing a cardboard boob while partying, and hanging a cardboard nigger from a tree have very different levels of sickness and intent IMO. I don't know where you went to school, but a few generations ago in our country the story goes; real black people were enslaved, hung from trees and generally tortured. It's really not all that funny. Murder and boob grabbing aren't in the same world as far as I'm concerned. I guess I'm a morally confused liberal that doesn't believe in racism or murder but likes to joke around with boobs. Fuck man, some innappropriate things are just inappropriate enough to be funny and others are just sort of disturbing. I guess you'd call that grey area but you'd have to be able to think to go there.

[RashanGary]

Alright, I'm off to my company Xmas party where I guarantee a few sexual jokes will be made later in the night when all of the prudes go home.

Maybe after a good boob joke we'll throw on our fake KKK robes and go pretend to hang a few cardboard niggers. We'll put a big burnign cross on someones truck and drive around replicating old KKK crimes. I mean, what's funnier than pretending to kill niggers, right. If we can't joke about that, what is this world coming to.

[HowardRoark]

Alright, I'm off to my company Xmas party.

What's a Xmas party?

[Packers4Ever]

If it walks and talks and quacks and posts like a liberal, it might just be that dirty word. I'll say this, though: you gotta respect anybody who detests having the rotten label of "liberal".

I just want to know, is the guy's name pronounced FAVRE-O, or some other way?

JON FAVREAUX - fav - row - with the accent on 'row.'

[Kiwon]

Man, you must be a real loser, Kiwon.

Justin, you're a little off-topic, but after hearing how you roll, I guess I am a happy loser. :)

You 'da man!

Watch the booze and be safe. Don't pull a Plaxico on us.

[SkinBasket]

Considering that Tank used to post here, it really says something when I say that this is the dumbest conversation I've ever seen on this forum. I'm done with it.

Sometimes it's best to cut your loses and run. I don't do it, but others should.


I'm not a liberal. I just hate stupidity.

Even as a joke, which I don't think you intended that as, that's not only mildly insulting, but also highly indicative of your typical hate filled, small minded liberal smugness that makes normal people weep at night for the future of our nation. I find it amazing that you continue to cling to this ridiculous falsehood that you're some kind of moderate. At first, I thought it was a joke, but now I'm pretty convinced your just actually that delusional.

[LL2]

I'm not going to get into comparing this with the lynching incident, but with that guy being Obama chief speech writer I will say his actions were really stupid. I'm shocked that liberal women and Hillary supporters are not calling for him to be fired. Isn't that extremely offensive and degrading to see Hillary or any woman being groped and made fun of sexually?

I think there is a double standard. If a McCain or Bush staffer was caught doing that they would be fired immediately. At least feminist around the country would call for it...because he is working for The One.

[sheepshead]

I'm not going to get into comparing this with the lynching incident, but with that guy being Obama chief speech writer I will say his actions were really stupid. I'm shocked that liberal women and Hillary supporters are not calling for him to be fired. Isn't that extremely offensive and degrading to see Hillary or any woman being groped and made fun of sexually?

I think there is a double standard. If a McCain or Bush staffer was caught doing that they would be fired immediately. At least feminist around the country would call for it...because he is working for The One.

Xactly.

The One and his minyans shall not be questioned, Ever.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'm not a liberal. I just hate stupidity.

Even as a joke, which I don't think you intended that as, that's not only mildly insulting, but also highly indicative of your typical hate filled, small minded liberal smugness that makes normal people weep at night for the future of our nation. I find it amazing that you continue to cling to this ridiculous falsehood that you're some kind of moderate. At first, I thought it was a joke, but now I'm pretty convinced your just actually that delusional.

Ziggy displays none of the qualities that you list. And it was a little unreasonable to blame your bed wetting on her.

I think there has been a high level of stupidity and nastiness from liberals in this last election cycle. I am so disillusioned that I'm not ever going to vote for a politician favored by the left. But honestly, posters in this forum have not been awful. I can think of only one, who shall remain awful and unnamed.

[SkinBasket]

You both share about the same amount of intellectual honesty when it comes to political topics, all your leftist Hillary defamation angst aside.

If calling yourselves centrists or independents really makes you guys feel better about yourselves in some strange way and makes you think your opinions are somehow more valid, there's not much I can do about it. Just expect to be called a donkey when you act, talk, and smell like a donkey.

[BallHawk]

It's a piece of fucking cardboard.

[th87]

Instead of reporting this irrelevance, maybe you should figure out a way to save this country from these leftist boogeymen you so fear?

[Kiwon]

It's a piece of XXXXing cardboard.

Exactly. And so was the flying Obama.

YET, it's a famous piece of cardboard now.

And so is the NAME and the RIGHT HAND of the man who makes Obama sound inspiring through his soaring rhetoric, Obama's chief speechwriter.

The headline in the Korean news translates, "Favreau, Feels Up (Arouses) Hillary For Fun"

His name, age, profession, and right hand are all featured in the article (I thought you libs were concerned about America's reputation in the world?)

Jon Favreau tells us through Obama all the good things that are going to happen because the (false) Messiah is POTUS and then backs it up with what? - Mysogyny

Why shouldn't his arse be fired for causing embarrassment to Obama, Hillary Clinton, and his country?

http://kr.news.yahoo.com/service/news/shellview2.htm?articleid=2008120800001373410&linkid=624&newssetid=1540&title=%C1%F6%B1%B8%C3%CC+%C7%B3%B0%E6

[arcilite]

because apparently you are the only one that cares about it?

[Kiwon]

because apparently you are the only one that cares about it?

Yeah, that's why major news outlets around the world are featuring it.

But, hey, if that had been Karl Rove's hand..... then suddenly the arcilites of the world would take notice.

No?

[SkinBasket]

No. Because they are intellectually honest moderate independents. Get over it.

[Harlan Huckleby]

You both share about the same amount of intellectual honesty when it comes to political topics.

what does this mean, "intellectual honesty"?

sounds like empty name calling. Is this like sophistry - making arguments which you know are false? When have I or Ziggy done this? I think you are using fancy words to call someone a liar, based on nothing.

You are clever and shallow.


If calling yourselves centrists or independents really makes you guys feel better about yourselves

I consider myself a thinking person. My instincts are liberal. My opinions are all over the map.

I think you are very smart, but not so thoughtful.

[SkinBasket]

It means you make false claims about yourself and your positions in an effort to make your opinions more acceptable by default, rather than through argument. Claiming you're a political "independent" or "moderate" in an effort to cast your views as being free of personal political bias when everything you've posted on these forums proves otherwise would be one way of doing this. Making claims like "I'm not a liberal. I just hate stupidity," is the same gig. But instead of saying everything more conservative than my view falls to the right of center, she's saying anything more conservative than her own view, which she's demonstrated over and over as being rather party line liberal, is "stupid."

Instead of prattling on about "fancy words" why don't you take Jay-Z's advice:

And if you catch a lick when I spit, then it won't be a little hit
Go read a book you illiterate son of a bitch and step up your vocab

[cpk1994]

I think it's funny and I don't think he should be fired. If he was a conservative, I would think he should be fired because their base is the lunitic religous fringe and he wouldn't be representing their party very well.

The rest of us good humored adults who can take a joke, we can continue to vote liberal and our guys can continue to have a sense of humor without the a prudish base to pull us down.


Bravo Libs. Great year for us. Hahaha. . . Haha. That's how I feel right now as a liberal. Ha.Liberals have a sense of humor? This qualifies as the single biggest pile of bullshit I have ever read. And considering all of Tank's posts that an accomplishment. Congrats JH. You just out tanked Tank.

[arcilite]

I think it's funny and I don't think he should be fired. If he was a conservative, I would think he should be fired because their base is the lunitic religous fringe and he wouldn't be representing their party very well.

The rest of us good humored adults who can take a joke, we can continue to vote liberal and our guys can continue to have a sense of humor without the a prudish base to pull us down.


Bravo Libs. Great year for us. Hahaha. . . Haha. That's how I feel right now as a liberal. Ha.Liberals have a sense of humor? This qualifies as the single biggest pile of bullshit I have ever read. And considering all of Tank's posts that an accomplishment. Congrats JH. You just out tanked Tank.

I voted for Obama and I'm a funny dude

[cpk1994]

I think it's funny and I don't think he should be fired. If he was a conservative, I would think he should be fired because their base is the lunitic religous fringe and he wouldn't be representing their party very well.

The rest of us good humored adults who can take a joke, we can continue to vote liberal and our guys can continue to have a sense of humor without the a prudish base to pull us down.


Bravo Libs. Great year for us. Hahaha. . . Haha. That's how I feel right now as a liberal. Ha.Liberals have a sense of humor? This qualifies as the single biggest pile of bullshit I have ever read. And considering all of Tank's posts that an accomplishment. Congrats JH. You just out tanked Tank.

I voted for Obama and I'm a funny dudeOK, then make it Liberals in Washington.

[texaspackerbacker]

Instead of reporting this irrelevance, maybe you should figure out a way to save this country from these leftist boogeymen you so fear?

I'll second that emotion.

[texaspackerbacker]

You both share about the same amount of intellectual honesty when it comes to political topics.

what does this mean, "intellectual honesty"?

sounds like empty name calling. Is this like sophistry - making arguments which you know are false? When have I or Ziggy done this? I think you are using fancy words to call someone a liar, based on nothing.

You are clever and shallow.


If calling yourselves centrists or independents really makes you guys feel better about yourselves

I consider myself a thinking person. My instincts are liberal. My opinions are all over the map.

I think you are very smart, but not so thoughtful.

Intellectual Honesty is the exact opposite of Political Correctness. It means saying what you think/feel, and damn the consequences--not giving a shit if anybody--which usually means liberals who can't stand to think of themselves as liberals--get upset about it.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Shouldn't all you conservatives be working on your explanation of why another gov't bailout is ok. :oops:

P.S. Skin, why don't you work on your explanation of how we were in a recession for over a year but it was just now discovered. :oops:

[bobblehead]

Shouldn't all you conservatives be working on your explanation of why another gov't bailout is ok. :oops:

P.S. Skin, why don't you work on your explanation of how we were in a recession for over a year but it was just now discovered. :oops:

ty, good to see you again. Anyway, conservatives don't believe in bailouts, medicare drug plans or beauracracies called no child left behind....thus democrats control house, senate, presidency, and cheating election officials in minnesota.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Shouldn't all you conservatives be working on your explanation of why another gov't bailout is ok. :oops:

P.S. Skin, why don't you work on your explanation of how we were in a recession for over a year but it was just now discovered. :oops:

ty, good to see you again. Anyway, conservatives don't believe in bailouts, medicare drug plans or beauracracies called no child left behind....thus democrats control house, senate, presidency, and cheating election officials in minnesota.

Really? I'm going to have to check the voter rolls...i just find it hard to believe that none voted to bailout the banks, give money to help purchase bear stearns (while letting lehman die), and none are gonna help out GM. :oops:

No child: So, when did Bush become a liberal and promote that?

P.S. I've been lurking a bit, but i'm working on my final career move...gotta have a portable skill set that will allow me to work worldwide...once the empire collapses.

[HowardRoark]

P.S. I've been lurking a bit, but i'm working on my final career move...gotta have a portable skill set that will allow me to work worldwide...once the empire collapses.

I thought you were raptured.

[RashanGary]

The reason the chosen one gets away with this is becuase those of us who voted for him really don't care. In fact, I'll bet many of the younger more open minds that voted probably think it's funny and harmless based on his charming shit grin and less than intimdating pose of just playfully grabbing the lush hillarboob.

Now, if a conservative did this they would have to answer to their base, which cannot disipher the difference between boob grabbing and hanging black people for their race.


We have 8 years of Obama. Get used to it. He represents us liberals well and I like him even more now that I see his young chief writers being such normal beer drinking boob grabbing guys that would be fun as hell to hang out with. Sorry but just because you have fun doesn't mean you can't do an important job and since I probably represent a large portion of Obama voters, I guess when I say "I think it's great", it carrys some weight and probalby explains why its not such a big deal to those who voted for him.

The chosen one is here to stay. Long live Obama.

[HowardRoark]

The reason the chosen one gets away with this is becuase those of us who voted for him really don't care. In fact, I'll bet many of the younger more open minds that voted probably think it's funny and harmless based on his charming shit grin and less than intimdating pose of just playfully grabbing the lush hillarboob.

Now, if a conservative did this they would have to answer to their base, which cannot disipher the difference between boob grabbing and hanging black people for their race.


We have 8 years of Obama. Get used to it. He represents us liberals well and I like him even more now that I see his young chief writers being such normal beer drinking boob grabbing guys that would be fun as hell to hang out with. Sorry but just because you have fun doesn't mean you can't do an important job and since I probably represent a large portion of Obama voters, I guess when I say "I think it's great", it carrys some weight and probalby explains why its not such a big deal to those who voted for him.

The chosen one is here to stay. Long live Obama.

You are an anti-woman hate group.

[RashanGary]

You are an anti-woman hate group.

Haha, I'm glad you feel that way. Thinking like this from you traditional-thinking dinasours that make up the majority of the conservative base is the exact reason we can expect many more years of liberalism and why republicans are going to have to go more liberal to keep up with the new, open minded voting population.

Conservatism as you know it is done. Deal with it. Long live the progressive liberal thinkers.

[HowardRoark]

You are an anti-woman hate group.

Haha, I'm glad you feel that way. Thinking like this from you traditional-thinking dinasours that make up the majority of the conservative base is the exact reason we can expect many more years of liberalism and why republicans are going to have to go more liberal to keep up with the new, open minded voting population.

Conservatism as you know it is done. Deal with it. Long live the progressive liberal thinkers.

You are an anti-Conservative hate group.

[HowardRoark]

BTW JH....have you been following Canadian politics the last few weeks?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

P.S. I've been lurking a bit, but i'm working on my final career move...gotta have a portable skill set that will allow me to work worldwide...once the empire collapses.

I thought you were raptured.

I do love The Rapture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5z9789Tbss

[SkinBasket]

P.S. Skin, why don't you work on your explanation of how we were in a recession for over a year but it was just now discovered. :oops:

I don't do homework. Besides, you can gloat all you want about how our nation is hurting, but that don't make it any better - which is kind of a theme with you folks.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

P.S. Skin, why don't you work on your explanation of how we were in a recession for over a year but it was just now discovered. :oops:

I don't do homework. Besides, you can gloat all you want about how our nation is hurting, but that don't make it any better - which is kind of a theme with you folks.

Who is gloating? Some of us like knowing the truth..that way we can begin attacking the problem. We prefer that over lying...which seems to be a theme with you folks.

[SkinBasket]

P.S. Skin, why don't you work on your explanation of how we were in a recession for over a year but it was just now discovered. :oops:

I don't do homework. Besides, you can gloat all you want about how our nation is hurting, but that don't make it any better - which is kind of a theme with you folks.

Who is gloating? Some of us like knowing the truth..that way we can begin attacking the problem. We prefer that over lying...which seems to be a theme with you folks.

Warm fuzzy feeling.... activated!

[Tyrone Bigguns]

P.S. Skin, why don't you work on your explanation of how we were in a recession for over a year but it was just now discovered. :oops:

I don't do homework. Besides, you can gloat all you want about how our nation is hurting, but that don't make it any better - which is kind of a theme with you folks.

Who is gloating? Some of us like knowing the truth..that way we can begin attacking the problem. We prefer that over lying...which seems to be a theme with you folks.

Warm fuzzy feeling.... activated!

Right back at you!

[bobblehead]

You are an anti-woman hate group.

Haha, I'm glad you feel that way. Thinking like this from you traditional-thinking dinasours that make up the majority of the conservative base is the exact reason we can expect many more years of liberalism and why republicans are going to have to go more liberal to keep up with the new, open minded voting population.

Conservatism as you know it is done. Deal with it. Long live the progressive liberal thinkers.

You're a bit young to realize how foolish you sound. Believe me, neither conservatism or liberalism is dying anytime soon. I could have made the same foolish statement in 1994.

"Now, if a conservative did this they would have to answer to their base, which cannot disipher the difference between boob grabbing and hanging black people for their race. " I think not being able to decipher the difference between some random kids (who might even be democrats) committing a rascist act and a man's STAFF committing a mysoginist act....well....

[texaspackerbacker]

Shouldn't all you conservatives be working on your explanation of why another gov't bailout is ok. :oops:

P.S. Skin, why don't you work on your explanation of how we were in a recession for over a year but it was just now discovered. :oops:

I was against the bail out, just like the House Republicans--the bastion of conservative elected officials nowadays. You lefties will be hard pressed to disavow the bail out when liberals like Barney Fag are leading the push for it.

There is a clear textbook definition for "recession". By that definition we weren't, and indeed still aren't in a recession, although one more down quarter would make it a recession. I'm not sure who these pseudo-experts are that are claiming the recession started a year agp, but it just ain't so.

The only reason for the slight downturn is the fact that the leftist media, in true self-fulfilling-prophecy fashion, hoodwinked people into believing the problems were real. That caused consumers and investors to behave like there actually WAS a crisis, which actually brought about some elements of real economic problems.

[arcilite]

Shouldn't all you conservatives be working on your explanation of why another gov't bailout is ok. :oops:

P.S. Skin, why don't you work on your explanation of how we were in a recession for over a year but it was just now discovered. :oops:

I was against the bail out, just like the House Republicans--the bastion of conservative elected officials nowadays. You lefties will be hard pressed to disavow the bail out when liberals like Barney Fag are leading the push for it.

There is a clear textbook definition for "recession". By that definition we weren't, and indeed still aren't in a recession, although one more down quarter would make it a recession. I'm not sure who these pseudo-experts are that are claiming the recession started a year agp, but it just ain't so.

The only reason for the slight downturn is the fact that the leftist media, in true self-fulfilling-prophecy fashion, hoodwinked people into believing the problems were real. That caused consumers and investors to behave like there actually WAS a crisis, which actually brought about some elements of real economic problems.

A recession is when the GDP is reduced for 2 or more quarters in a row.

Or "a significant decline in the economic activity spread across the economy, lasting more than a few months, normally visible in real GDP growth, real personal income, employment (non-farm payrolls), industrial production, and wholesale-retail sales.""

The United States has been in recession since December 2007. 11 Months and counting.

You can look up the facts...that is not something fabricated by the 'leftist media'

[bobblehead]

Shouldn't all you conservatives be working on your explanation of why another gov't bailout is ok. :oops:

P.S. Skin, why don't you work on your explanation of how we were in a recession for over a year but it was just now discovered. :oops:

I was against the bail out, just like the House Republicans--the bastion of conservative elected officials nowadays. You lefties will be hard pressed to disavow the bail out when liberals like Barney Fag are leading the push for it.

There is a clear textbook definition for "recession". By that definition we weren't, and indeed still aren't in a recession, although one more down quarter would make it a recession. I'm not sure who these pseudo-experts are that are claiming the recession started a year agp, but it just ain't so.

The only reason for the slight downturn is the fact that the leftist media, in true self-fulfilling-prophecy fashion, hoodwinked people into believing the problems were real. That caused consumers and investors to behave like there actually WAS a crisis, which actually brought about some elements of real economic problems.

A recession is when the GDP is reduced for 2 or more quarters in a row.

Or "a significant decline in the economic activity spread across the economy, lasting more than a few months, normally visible in real GDP growth, real personal income, employment (non-farm payrolls), industrial production, and wholesale-retail sales.""

The United States has been in recession since December 2007. 11 Months and counting.

You can look up the facts...that is not something fabricated by the 'leftist media'

by your own arguement and facts we have been in recession for 5 months. Its not a recession until AFTER 2 quarters...or 6 months. Anyway it is irrelavent as recessions are part of the normal cycle. This one happens to be nastier because of the credit markets crunching. Shit happens, keep the environment for growth right and we will come out of it just like post 9/11.

[arcilite]

Shouldn't all you conservatives be working on your explanation of why another gov't bailout is ok. :oops:

P.S. Skin, why don't you work on your explanation of how we were in a recession for over a year but it was just now discovered. :oops:

I was against the bail out, just like the House Republicans--the bastion of conservative elected officials nowadays. You lefties will be hard pressed to disavow the bail out when liberals like Barney Fag are leading the push for it.

There is a clear textbook definition for "recession". By that definition we weren't, and indeed still aren't in a recession, although one more down quarter would make it a recession. I'm not sure who these pseudo-experts are that are claiming the recession started a year agp, but it just ain't so.

The only reason for the slight downturn is the fact that the leftist media, in true self-fulfilling-prophecy fashion, hoodwinked people into believing the problems were real. That caused consumers and investors to behave like there actually WAS a crisis, which actually brought about some elements of real economic problems.

A recession is when the GDP is reduced for 2 or more quarters in a row.

Or "a significant decline in the economic activity spread across the economy, lasting more than a few months, normally visible in real GDP growth, real personal income, employment (non-farm payrolls), industrial production, and wholesale-retail sales.""

The United States has been in recession since December 2007. 11 Months and counting.

You can look up the facts...that is not something fabricated by the 'leftist media'

by your own arguement and facts we have been in recession for 5 months. Its not a recession until AFTER 2 quarters...or 6 months. Anyway it is irrelavent as recessions are part of the normal cycle. This one happens to be nastier because of the credit markets crunching. Shit happens, keep the environment for growth right and we will come out of it just like post 9/11.

You are right on that. I think it is silly to say we are not in a recession.

But what is open to opinion is how severe it is

[texaspackerbacker]

Shouldn't all you conservatives be working on your explanation of why another gov't bailout is ok. :oops:

P.S. Skin, why don't you work on your explanation of how we were in a recession for over a year but it was just now discovered. :oops:

I was against the bail out, just like the House Republicans--the bastion of conservative elected officials nowadays. You lefties will be hard pressed to disavow the bail out when liberals like Barney Fag are leading the push for it.

There is a clear textbook definition for "recession". By that definition we weren't, and indeed still aren't in a recession, although one more down quarter would make it a recession. I'm not sure who these pseudo-experts are that are claiming the recession started a year agp, but it just ain't so.

The only reason for the slight downturn is the fact that the leftist media, in true self-fulfilling-prophecy fashion, hoodwinked people into believing the problems were real. That caused consumers and investors to behave like there actually WAS a crisis, which actually brought about some elements of real economic problems.

A recession is when the GDP is reduced for 2 or more quarters in a row.

Or "a significant decline in the economic activity spread across the economy, lasting more than a few months, normally visible in real GDP growth, real personal income, employment (non-farm payrolls), industrial production, and wholesale-retail sales.""

The United States has been in recession since December 2007. 11 Months and counting.

You can look up the facts...that is not something fabricated by the 'leftist media'

You started out very well--quoting the textbook definition of a recession--the two consecutive quarters of negative growth--which STILL has not occurred.

The rest of what you posted, however, is nothing but a conveniently vague and subjective mishmash--how much, for how long? And do they really mean decline (which hasn't occurred in most of those areas? Or just slowing of the rate of increase?

By the REAL economic definition, we are NOT in a recession even now.

And to the extent ANY of this is happening, it is the result of the "self-fulfilling prophecy" of the leftist mainstream media--conning people into believing there was some kind of an economic crisis so that they would behave in a way that actually did slow things down.

[arcilite]

It is hard to ignore when we see banks failing, houses getting foreclosed, and millions getting laid off.

I know you think the 'leftist media' has exaggerated the 'recession' TBP, but you do agree that things are not so good now right?

[GrnBay007]

By the REAL economic definition, we are NOT in a recession even now.



Well then, take me to the bubble you are living in!!

[texaspackerbacker]

It is hard to ignore when we see banks failing, houses getting foreclosed, and millions getting laid off.

I know you think the 'leftist media' has exaggerated the 'recession' TBP, but you do agree that things are not so good now right?

It depends on what you consider good--or bad.

Very very few banks have failed--and for that, we have the FDIC.

The foreclosures have been extremely exaggerated. It takes many months to lose a house. There are remedies, etc. I wonder how many people who have actually walked away from mortgages did so out of ignorance--or swallowing the bullshit put out by the media when they got the first threatening letter. The housing "crisis" is largely confined to a few geographic areas where the previous boom got to extreme and needed correcting.

As for agreeing or disagreeing that things aren't so good now, I ask you, do you know anybody who is suffering? I sure don't. Undoubtedly there are some people, but not all that many--probably much less than in many previous downturns or other types of "crises".

And I say again, to the extent that it is happening, it is mainly the result of people reacting to the negative and mostly false crap put out by the media--I won't even confine it to the leftist media, as Fox has been guilty of some bogus and alarmist crap too.

[texaspackerbacker]

By the REAL economic definition, we are NOT in a recession even now.



Well then, take me to the bubble you are living in!!

007, are YOU suffering? Do you know anyone who is suffering?

People can exaggerate and panic and say whatever they want, but the actual word, "recession" has an actual definition, and what we are experiencing just ain't it.

[GrnBay007]

By the REAL economic definition, we are NOT in a recession even now.



Well then, take me to the bubble you are living in!!

007, are YOU suffering? Do you know anyone who is suffering?

People can exaggerate and panic and say whatever they want, but the actual word, "recession" has an actual definition, and what we are experiencing just ain't it.

Suffering, no. I don't think I would use the word "suffering" when speaking about a recession to begin with.

I don't trust most of what I read or hear on TV. But I do trust people I know that own businesses and a few in finance that have been saying they hope they are wrong, but do expect things to get much, much worse before they get better. ...and those people laugh when they hear people saying we are not in a recession.

Wonder what effect the economy will have on the Holiday spending this year. Myself? I'm spending 1/2 of what I normally spend on x-mas gifts. The other 1/2 of the good old x-mas club account is getting set aside as a reserve.

[arcilite]

I'm suffering. Most of my friends are suffering.

And some of my family.

[GrnBay007]

I'm suffering. Most of my friends are suffering.



We're not talking hangovers here. :P :wink:

[texaspackerbacker]

By the REAL economic definition, we are NOT in a recession even now.



Well then, take me to the bubble you are living in!!

007, are YOU suffering? Do you know anyone who is suffering?

People can exaggerate and panic and say whatever they want, but the actual word, "recession" has an actual definition, and what we are experiencing just ain't it.

Suffering, no. I don't think I would use the word "suffering" when speaking about a recession to begin with.

I don't trust most of what I read or hear on TV. But I do trust people I know that own businesses and a few in finance that have been saying they hope they are wrong, but do expect things to get much, much worse before they get better. ...and those people laugh when they hear people saying we are not in a recession.

Wonder what effect the economy will have on the Holiday spending this year. Myself? I'm spending 1/2 of what I normally spend on x-mas gifts. The other 1/2 of the good old x-mas club account is getting set aside as a reserve.

I think in a way, you really nailed it. A lot of people are sitting around saying/thinking "there must be much worse things to come, because it sure ain't as bad as the media is telling us now".

A lot of people are probably doing just like you at Christmas, 007. You really prove my point: people behaving in a way that CAUSES the economic slowdown because they are afraid all the crap the media says is here now just must be coming soon--a self-fulfilling prophecy--a MEDIA-GENERATED economic problem.

[MJZiggy]

According to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, the U.S. economy lost 1.2 million jobs in the first 10 months of 2008. When I was doing my pre-Thanksgiving shopping, there were 3 chains that were going out of business. Not 3 stores, but 3 chains. And yes, I do know someone who was laid off recently. I was told that it had never before taken him this long to get a new job as a computer programmer.

[SkinBasket]

According to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, the U.S. economy lost 1.2 million jobs in the first 10 months of 2008. When I was doing my pre-Thanksgiving shopping, there were 3 chains that were going out of business. Not 3 stores, but 3 chains. And yes, I do know someone who was laid off recently. I was told that it had never before taken him this long to get a new job as a computer programmer.

The world is truly ending.

[texaspackerbacker]

It's true, unemployment is in the mid to upper 6% range, higher than it has been since the Clinton years. And yeah, Circuit City and whatever the other two are, really are apparently going out of business.

Why do you think that is? Maybe because people aren't buying their products? Maybe because people aren't buying what the factories were making where there are now people without jobs? Maybe because corporate tax rates here are higher than just about anywhere in the world? Maybe because wacko environmentalist policies and other government regulations cost employers far more here than most other places in the world?

And why do you think people aren't buying as much? I refer you to 007's post above.

And why do you think so many people are so worried when they, themselves, are NOT feeling the effects of economic problems? I say it's the media pushing off a bunch of bogus crap on the public. Do you have a better idea?

Why would the media do such a thing? Does it really matter? I say it's elitist America-hate for the most part. Do you have another theory about that?

[MJZiggy]

Sheesh, I didn't even think of Circuit City.

Perhaps the businesses are going under because all the people who overextended themselves in mortgages had their arm adjustments and couldn't afford to go shopping because the mortgage payments went up. People whose rates rose no longer have the disposable income they thought they did when banks were wooing them with $500 mortgage payments or 3% rates that have since doubled.

I think many businesses like the automakers are failing because they refused to see the trends in the market and adjust, thereby causing their own downfall. Honda and Toyota aren't suffering and not only are many of their cars built here, but they have to pay import taxes on the ones that are manufactured overseas (which is why they built plants here--cheaper to produce them here than do it in Japan and pay taxes and shipping.

And GM is STILL pushing trucks in an economy car market...

[GrnBay007]

And why do you think people aren't buying as much? I refer you to 007's post above.

And why do you think so many people are so worried when they, themselves, are NOT feeling the effects of economic problems? I say it's the media pushing off a bunch of bogus crap on the public. Do you have a better idea?



I never said anything about NOT feeling the effects. You asked me if I was suffering. Big difference. And yeah, I can easily say I've been feeling it for almost a year. How I know it will be worse in 2009? I work for the State and we've already been told there will be somewhere in the range of 44-70 million cut in spending. I already know my family health insurance will jump Jan. 1st from $10 per month to $230 per month. This is not media or bogus crap. These are facts and that's why I'm concerned and not spending as much.

Like I said before....take me to your bubble.

[texaspackerbacker]

Sheesh, I didn't even think of Circuit City.

Perhaps the businesses are going under because all the people who overextended themselves in mortgages had their arm adjustments and couldn't afford to go shopping because the mortgage payments went up. People whose rates rose no longer have the disposable income they thought they did when banks were wooing them with $500 mortgage payments or 3% rates that have since doubled.

I think many businesses like the automakers are failing because they refused to see the trends in the market and adjust, thereby causing their own downfall. Honda and Toyota aren't suffering and not only are many of their cars built here, but they have to pay import taxes on the ones that are manufactured overseas (which is why they built plants here--cheaper to produce them here than do it in Japan and pay taxes and shipping.

And GM is STILL pushing trucks in an economy car market...

Did you by chance read that mortgage interest rates last week dropped to the lowest level since the sixties--in the 4% range? That not only benefits home buyers. It also means that those dreaded ARMs are not going to adjust upward--and even if they did, the homeowners could get a fixed rate mortgage for a wonderfully low rate. I was in the real estate business for 16 years when rates were as high as 17.5%, and never lower than 8.5%.

Actually, Honda and Toyota ARE experiencing decreased sales too--not as much as the American companies, but some. Part of the bullshit spread by the media and America-haters in general is that Jap and Euro cars are better quality than American made. I bet YOU even believe that.

Not recognizing market trends? I saw a Toyota commercial still pushing that "economy car market" you are talking about because of "high gas prices". I doubt many people are thinking we are still in that "economy car market". Alot of them, however, are probably avoiding buying American because of the media generated negativity about the American companies.

007, I merely referred to what you said in your post you intended to do--spend half as much on Christmas shopping. As for the other paragraph, "And why do you think so many people are so worried when they, themselves, are NOT feeling the effects of economic problems? I say it's the media pushing off a bunch of bogus crap on the public. Do you have a better idea?", clearly, it's true--a very common reaction that is serving to fulfill the exact crap the media is spewing.

[GrnBay007]

"And why do you think so many people are so worried when they, themselves, are NOT feeling the effects of economic problems?

I don't know Tex. Are there people out there not feeling any effects of what's going on?

[MJZiggy]

Did you by chance read that mortgage interest rates last week dropped to the lowest level since the sixties--in the 4% range? That not only benefits home buyers. It also means that those dreaded ARMs are not going to adjust upward--and even if they did, the homeowners could get a fixed rate mortgage for a wonderfully low rate. I was in the real estate business for 16 years when rates were as high as 17.5%, and never lower than 8.5%.

Actually, Honda and Toyota ARE experiencing decreased sales too--not as much as the American companies, but some. Part of the bullshit spread by the media and America-haters in general is that Jap and Euro cars are better quality than American made. I bet YOU even believe that.

Not recognizing market trends? I saw a Toyota commercial still pushing that "economy car market" you are talking about because of "high gas prices". I doubt many people are thinking we are still in that "economy car market". Alot of them, however, are probably avoiding buying American because of the media generated negativity about the American companies.

007, I merely referred to what you said in your post you intended to do--spend half as much on Christmas shopping. As for the other paragraph, "And why do you think so many people are so worried when they, themselves, are NOT feeling the effects of economic problems? I say it's the media pushing off a bunch of bogus crap on the public. Do you have a better idea?", clearly, it's true--a very common reaction that is serving to fulfill the exact crap the media is spewing.

How nice that the mortgage rates are down. What were they when the banking system collapsed? Interest rates are low now, but how much money is there to lend?

The economy car market is not pushed by today's gas prices, but by recent trends and the possibility or probability of future gas prices.

And I've driven Ford, Chevy, Volvo Toyota and Honda recently and guess what...it's not really a contest. I also saw an accident on the highway Thanksgiving night between a VW Bug and a Ford Escort. Guess which car had the whole back end ripped off and which had the dent.

What reason does the media have to spew economic untruths? I didn't see them doing it the last 8 years. Why now? And don't tell me it's because they're America-hating leftists because leaning left or right has little to do with whether a banking collapse gets reported. Were they not to report it? Are they not to report the economic collapse in Detroit and the carmakers requesting a bailout? Exactly what ARE they allowed to print in the papers these days?

[SkinBasket]

And GM is STILL pushing trucks in an economy car market...

You're right. They should immediately shut down those production lines, send those thousands of workers home, recycle the 10s of thousands of inventory on the lots into plant pots, and never sell another truck again.

You do realize people outside of DC commuters still need trucks, right? Or maybe every contractor, farmer, builder, landscaper, utility, and construction worker should buy a Prius with attached eco-friendly wagon?

The truck market is not what got the auto industry into trouble. Shifting focus and production too heavily to a trendy SUV market, the ever increasing popularity of competitively priced, better produced "foreign" models across the spectrum, and most importantly, running an enormous welfare program for it's UAW retirees is what got them into trouble.

It's been over 20 years. You would think someone in the US auto industry would have watched Gung Ho by now and learned something from it.

[hoosier]

Like I said before....take me to your bubble.

You're arguing with someone who thinks the only reason the Packers finished 4-12 in 2005 was that Javon Walker got hurt. Tex isn't known for having a close relationship with reality.

[MJZiggy]

And GM is STILL pushing trucks in an economy car market...

You're right. They should immediately shut down those production lines, send those thousands of workers home, recycle the 10s of thousands of inventory on the lots into plant pots, and never sell another truck again.

You do realize people outside of DC commuters still need trucks, right? Or maybe every contractor, farmer, builder, landscaper, utility, and construction worker should buy a Prius with attached eco-friendly wagon?

The truck market is not what got the auto industry into trouble. Shifting focus and production too heavily to a trendy SUV market, the ever increasing popularity of competitively priced, better produced "foreign" models across the spectrum, and most importantly, running an enormous welfare program for it's UAW retirees is what got them into trouble.

It's been over 20 years. You would think someone in the US auto industry would have watched Gung Ho by now and learned something from it.

You think the trend toward smaller, more efficient vehicles started last week? They should have been adjusting to smaller vehicles years ago--and by that, I don't mean not making trucks, but like you said not keeping all their eggs in the SUV market. My mention of the truck ads was more a criticism of the fact that trucks were ALL they were offering, particularly since the demographics of the NFL viewer are changing. They're just not changing with them. I agree about the UAW as well. Greedy bastards.

[texaspackerbacker]

Like I said before....take me to your bubble.

You're arguing with someone who thinks the only reason the Packers finished 4-12 in 2005 was that Javon Walker got hurt. Tex isn't known for having a close relationship with reality.

You would actually dispute that the 4-12 '05 season was ruined by injuries?

I suppose, then, that you'd dispute that the injuries, along with other luck factors (see my numerous posts in the Packer forum) are the primary reason for this screwed up season, too.

[texaspackerbacker]

Did you by chance read that mortgage interest rates last week dropped to the lowest level since the sixties--in the 4% range? That not only benefits home buyers. It also means that those dreaded ARMs are not going to adjust upward--and even if they did, the homeowners could get a fixed rate mortgage for a wonderfully low rate. I was in the real estate business for 16 years when rates were as high as 17.5%, and never lower than 8.5%.

Actually, Honda and Toyota ARE experiencing decreased sales too--not as much as the American companies, but some. Part of the bullshit spread by the media and America-haters in general is that Jap and Euro cars are better quality than American made. I bet YOU even believe that.

Not recognizing market trends? I saw a Toyota commercial still pushing that "economy car market" you are talking about because of "high gas prices". I doubt many people are thinking we are still in that "economy car market". Alot of them, however, are probably avoiding buying American because of the media generated negativity about the American companies.

007, I merely referred to what you said in your post you intended to do--spend half as much on Christmas shopping. As for the other paragraph, "And why do you think so many people are so worried when they, themselves, are NOT feeling the effects of economic problems? I say it's the media pushing off a bunch of bogus crap on the public. Do you have a better idea?", clearly, it's true--a very common reaction that is serving to fulfill the exact crap the media is spewing.

How nice that the mortgage rates are down. What were they when the banking system collapsed? Interest rates are low now, but how much money is there to lend?

The economy car market is not pushed by today's gas prices, but by recent trends and the possibility or probability of future gas prices.

And I've driven Ford, Chevy, Volvo Toyota and Honda recently and guess what...it's not really a contest. I also saw an accident on the highway Thanksgiving night between a VW Bug and a Ford Escort. Guess which car had the whole back end ripped off and which had the dent.

What reason does the media have to spew economic untruths? I didn't see them doing it the last 8 years. Why now? And don't tell me it's because they're America-hating leftists because leaning left or right has little to do with whether a banking collapse gets reported. Were they not to report it? Are they not to report the economic collapse in Detroit and the carmakers requesting a bailout? Exactly what ARE they allowed to print in the papers these days?

I mentioned the low mortgage rates because you seemed to be making a big deal about ARMs increasing mortgage payments--which basically is NOT happening. Those ARMs are pegged to various market interest rates--all of which are so low that they are NOT triggering rate increases in the ARMs.

Also, it is a fiction that there is not plenty of mortgage money available for new buyers. Ask any realtor or mortgage provider if you don't believe me.

The same is true for vehicle financing. You can verify that with car dealers around the country--both foreign and domestic. The so-called "credit crunch" was mostly a spiteful and empty threat on the part of the banking industry if the bailout package wasn't passed. I say "empty" because there are many many smaller regional banks that didn't need and indeed, are refusing bailout funds and the attached strings.

As for big versus small and foreign versus domestic, you may prefer small economy cars, but statistically, you are in the minority in most markets--including the one we are back in now that gas prices are back down. As for foreign versus domestic, the fiction of superior foreign automotive engineering and production that has been promoted by certain elements has done wonders toward harming the American carmakers. There used to be an expression, "what's good for General Motors is good for the U.S.A.". Well, then, it follows that "what's bad for General Motors is bad for the U.S.A.". Apparently, you are a true believer in that propaganda.

Why would the media and the entertainment community promote crap like that? I would call it "America-hate". I suppose you don't buy that either. Whatever. As for the banking "crisis", I don't know. You're right, that one did seem to cross party/ideological lines. My theory is that it started as an effort to help Obama--diverting attention from security and all his other vulnerabilities, but somebody in the financial services industry saw an opportunity to cash in like never before. The elitists from both parties backed the bailout, and only House Republicans--in closer touch with the people--opposed it.

Why would the media conjure up an economic crisis now? You don't suppose a presidential election that they wanted to swing had anything to do with it? Actually, the leftist mainstream media DID spew a lot of economic untruth over the last eight years too. It just got lost in the shuffle with all the other horrible insidious crap they spewed in the systematic and highly successful effort to destroy public opinion of the Bush Administration.

[hoosier]

Like I said before....take me to your bubble.

You're arguing with someone who thinks the only reason the Packers finished 4-12 in 2005 was that Javon Walker got hurt. Tex isn't known for having a close relationship with reality.

You would actually dispute that the 4-12 '05 season was ruined by injuries?

I suppose, then, that you'd dispute that the injuries, along with other luck factors (see my numerous posts in the Packer forum) are the primary reason for this screwed up season, too.

Injuries and bad luck can't explain the difference between 13-3 and 5-8, or between 2004 and 2005. Sure, the Packers have had their share of injuries this year, but so have the Giants, who two of their top defenders (one to retirement, one to injury) before the season even started, and then had their best WR and best RB limited by injuries during the season. The injuries the Packers have suffered have hurt, but they haven't lost any irreplaceable players, and good teams have a way of overcoming those kinds of losses whereas bad teams don't. The Packers aren't a good team this year.

[Kiwon]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2008/12/04/PH2008120403612.jpg

The Washington Post helped to "expose" this guy (Jon Favreau, Obama's chief speechwriter) and created a controversy so it makes up for it with a long puff piece on "Favs" to smooth things over with the incoming Obama administration.

Gotta keep that access.

Helping to Write History

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/17/AR2008121703903.html?g=1