Scary

[RashanGary]

The defensive line has received significant criticism, arguably going from a position of strength last year to one of weakness.

Thompson doesn’t agree.

“I think in some respects that’s an inaccurate statement to say it’s the defensive line,” he said. “I think our guys have played very hard and we don’t have the sacks that we maybe would have expected or had last year. But they’ve played well. Again, the defense is an 11-man thing. It’s got to be orchestrated properly. And we just haven’t quite hit our stride yet.”

[RashanGary]

Holy fuck, Ted. I hope you don't believe this.

Pickett is approaching 30, doesn't work out in the offseason adn has slipped. Resigning an older guy with work ethic problems is a risk.

Kampman has one more year on his deal, will be 30 next year, shows no sign of decline and with the wide array of moves he has he should be good for a while.

Jolly could very well be a drug addict and hasn't taken a step forward

Jenkins is perpetually injured

Montgomery is the worst player in the NFL

Hunter can't play a lick of defense

Pettway sucks

Jeremy Thompson has sucked up to this point but who knows, he's a rookie.

Justin Harrell is embarassing

Cole is just a guy and that is a compliment to this group.


The whole thing has disaster written all over it. I really hope you don't really believe that they're just not coming on yet. I really hope that's not the case. I hope you're just avoiding talkign bad about yoru guys in public.

[Bretsky]

agree; very scary if TT does not see a sense of urgency to upgrade the marginal DL

[Fritz]

The defensive line has received significant criticism, arguably going from a position of strength last year to one of weakness.

Thompson doesn’t agree.

“I think in some respects that’s an inaccurate statement to say it’s the defensive line,” he said. “I think our guys have played very hard and we don’t have the sacks that we maybe would have expected or had last year. But they’ve played well. Again, the defense is an 11-man thing. It’s got to be orchestrated properly. And we just haven’t quite hit our stride yet.”

JH, read between those lines. I think Vanilla Bob might be looking for work come February.

[Patler]

The defensive line has received significant criticism, arguably going from a position of strength last year to one of weakness.

Thompson doesn’t agree.

“I think in some respects that’s an inaccurate statement to say it’s the defensive line,” he said. “I think our guys have played very hard and we don’t have the sacks that we maybe would have expected or had last year. But they’ve played well. Again, the defense is an 11-man thing. It’s got to be orchestrated properly. And we just haven’t quite hit our stride yet.”

JH, read between those lines. I think Vanilla Bob might be looking for work come February.

Yup. I thought TT's comments were encouraging. I think TT was saying that the simple approach is to blame it on the DL, but the problem goes deeper than that, to other players and even the coaches. If you focus only on the D-line, the problems will not be solved.

I expect changes, perhaps a lot of changes.

[Fritz]

Bretsky, if the Vanilla Bob firing goes down, will you perk up again? You seem to have become so deeply unhappy with the Packers. I know you say you don't care and you know it's about the long term future for Ted, but you really do seem pretty bummed about the whole thing.

Will getting rid of Vanilla Bob pump the life back into you? And if they throw Stock in there, will you be as excited as if two rather attrractive ladies showed up on your doorstep and offered to show affection for one another for your viewing pleasure?

[RashanGary]

Yup. I thought TT's comments were encouraging. I think TT was saying that the simple approach is to blame it on the DL, but the problem goes deeper than that, to other players and even the coaches. If you focus only on the D-line, the problems will not be solved.

I expect changes, perhaps a lot of changes.

I think the cop out is to blame the coach. I think they can get better coaches, but he looked pretty smart in the first half of last year when he had a top 5 defense lead by a good, deep DL.

[RashanGary]

JH, read between those lines. I think Vanilla Bob might be looking for work come February.

Good point though, I missed that.

[packrat]

We should know by now you can't believe anything TT says. He is never going to say anything that could hurt his team or give the competition any information. And he shouldn't. Measure Ted by what he does, not what he says.

[b bulldog]

Sure wish TT would have had some balls to move up and grab Mario. I do hope everyone now understands how much more influential a stud DE can be over a lb, and an average one at that.

[b bulldog]

Games are won in the trenches, not at the lb spot.

[RashanGary]

Games are won in the trenches, not at the lb spot.

I think you're right on iwth the trenches thing. We probably would have lost out on Jennings, Spitz, Hawk and others to move up and then we would have paid a shit load of money for a guy that we weren't sure if he was committed to being the best but I agree he should put more attention to the trenches. I just disagree that moving up was as easy or as sure of a thing as you say it is.

[Patler]

Yup. I thought TT's comments were encouraging. I think TT was saying that the simple approach is to blame it on the DL, but the problem goes deeper than that, to other players and even the coaches. If you focus only on the D-line, the problems will not be solved.

I expect changes, perhaps a lot of changes.

I think the cop out is to blame the coach. I think they can go better, but he looked pretty smart in the first half of last year when he had a top 5 defense lead by a good, deep DL.

But he didn't just blame the coaches. That's the point. When a defense performs as as shabbily as this one has recently the problems are wide spread. The D-line and linebackers have been mostly poor, and the safeties have been inconsistent, decent at times, bad at times. The coaches have to take some blame for the holdover players in the line and at linebacker under performing from last year. Beyond that they don't seem to have changed much in adjusting to current conditions.

If TT limits his "fixing" to the D-line, it won't be enough.

[RashanGary]

If TT limits his "fixing" to the D-line, it won't be enough.

I agree. I may have misread waht he said because I was looking for something a little more reassuring as far as him noticing how poorly they've played. He said the DL wasn't all of hte problem, which is to say it is part of the problem (without going into degrees of fault). I really hope he recognizes it though. I do think it's the biggest part of the problem.

[Lurker64]

I don't recall an NFL coach, general manager, or other honcho ever saying something like "Yeah, our tackles are playing like shit" to the media, whether or not it's true. There just doesn't seem to be a reason to do so, short of "appeasing the fans".

[RashanGary]

I don't recall an NFL coach, general manager, or other honcho ever saying something like "Yeah, our tackles are playing like shit" to the media, whether or not it's true. There just doesn't seem to be a reason to do so, short of "appeasing the fans".

Yeah. I'm hoping this is part of it too. It would be stupid of him to say anything bad, but man, he sure sounded content with those losers up front.

[RashanGary]

This will be a very defining year for Ted. If we go into the year with Montgomery, Hunter, Jeremy Thompson, Harrell and Cole as our line depth we'll be truely and utterly screwed no matter how well the rest of the defnse plays. The top two backup lineman might as well be starters with the amount of snaps they play and the 3rd backup turns into a starter as soon as one injury goes down. Having 4 decent guys and then junk is just plain unacceptable. Unless you have 2 or 3 all pros you need 6 or 7 good players. We entered the year with 4.

I'll be OK with either of these situations:

1. We bring in a lot of young talent. They show a lot of signs, but maybe have some inconsistencies and we don't play quite as well as our potential. This sinerio might not bring the Lombardi trophy home, but it will not mean long term doom like it's starting to look like if he relaly likes these losers.

2. We bring in some young talent and maybe a free agent. In this case we would be better now and have some young guys to develop too.



If we go in with the same old junk, I will not be OK with it and I will not give him a free pass. It might not be fire time, but it will be big bright red flag time.

[prsnfoto]

The defensive line has received significant criticism, arguably going from a position of strength last year to one of weakness.

Thompson doesn’t agree.

“I think in some respects that’s an inaccurate statement to say it’s the defensive line,” he said. “I think our guys have played very hard and we don’t have the sacks that we maybe would have expected or had last year. But they’ve played well. Again, the defense is an 11-man thing. It’s got to be orchestrated properly. And we just haven’t quite hit our stride yet.”

JH, read between those lines. I think Vanilla Bob might be looking for work come February.

Yup. I thought TT's comments were encouraging. I think TT was saying that the simple approach is to blame it on the DL, but the problem goes deeper than that, to other players and even the coaches. If you focus only on the D-line, the problems will not be solved.

I expect changes, perhaps a lot of changes.


Let us only hope they start at the top the changes that is, to me the Lion game is a very important game if somehow they beat us in Lambeau for the first time since 1991 I hope the board(Murphy is a pussy) fires everyone from TT to the waterboys yes I am that pissed off right now!

[chain_gang]

Mike Montgomery is the player I least like seeing on the field, It's seems like a lot of our biggest gains allowed vs the run is when he is on the field, Usually I'm watching the game and see him come in and it's like aaah crap here comes another 30 yard run.

Also, Justin Harrell seem to play alright when he first came back from injury, and lately he's been get pushed all over the place, maybe he needs a full healthy offseason to get his stamina and strength back. I'll give him another chance, but if he can't stay healthy during the offseason, who misses a bunch of workouts, I say cut his ass. I also heard that his knees are bothering him too, surprised his back is hurting more, with how much he's been on it the last few weeks.(My apologies for the negativity, but when I think back to that draft, and my man Dwayne Bowe (AKA Sterling SharpeII) was on the board imagine the impact he could make with a QB. Not that we needed him, but it just seems we draft the cheapest position to sign in the First round, with the exception of Rodgers. Even then we got a great deal with how far he fell.

[bobblehead]

So what would you all be saying if Hunter has a breakthrough as a speed rusher like KGB did in his third year? That and a healthy cullen jenkins would do wonders for this D. But alas, I hope its for a different coach than Sanders.

[b bulldog]

6'7'', 295lbs, 4.6/40, 43" vert and strong as an ox, he was a sure thing in my mind, and I guess he is proving it on the field now. One needs to be sure when picking in the draft that the players they covet are n ot already maxed out in terms of talent.

[RashanGary]

6'7'', 295lbs, 4.6/40, 43" vert and strong as an ox, he was a sure thing in my mind, and I guess he is proving it on the field now. One needs to be sure when picking in the draft that the players they covet are n ot already maxed out in terms of talent.

bulldog, the cost of getting the #1 pick is extraordinary. It's only happend a couple times in teh entire history of the NFL. Why do you think it was such a sure thing approach? I'm not saying Mario isn't a great player but getting him would have been very difficult.

[b bulldog]

last 27 games, 25 sacks and 6 forced fumbles. Probably the second best DE in the game behind Allen already, and he is only 23!!!!!!!!!! Obvioujsly I hav e a mancrush on him b ut the dude is a freak with skills.

[RashanGary]

It's like when people say, "we should have traded up to get Adrian Peterson".

Every team should have just traded up for Mario and Adrian Peterson and they'd all be better now. It's just so stupid because it's not realistic. The teams up there know how good they are to. Whey the hell are they jstu going to give them up? They aren't. that's why those slots don't get traded very often.

Look, I have a big problem with the DL, but I don't think Ted is god. He's can't jsut waive a magic wand and force teams to give away great players.

[RashanGary]

And for the record, I agree that Mario is 3x as valuable as Hawk. Hawk was a so/so pick. A decent player, that's it. Mario and Bush turned out to be impact players. Not many others from the top part of that draft. And you were just as enamoured with VY so lets have some perspective on the accuracy of our crystal balls. I was dead sure the Williams wall would be suspended and now I odn't know. Right when you think you know something you probably don't.

[Rastak]

The NFL trade chart indicates it would have taken 3000 points.


That would have cost

#1 (Hawk)
#2 (Colledge)
#2 (Jennings)
#3 ( Hodge)

and maybe

#3 (spitz)

[Lurker64]

The NFL trade chart indicates it would have taken 3000 points.


That would have cost

#1 (Hawk)
#2 (Colledge)
#2 (Jennings)
#3 ( Hodge)

and maybe

#3 (spitz)

Also, keep in mind, that up until the draft eve everybody was convinced Houston was going to draft Reggie Bush. Most people were gobsmacked at passing up Bush for Williams. If Thompson was prepared to trade up for Williams, he would have been preparing to trade up for #2 and would have missed out on Williams entirely.

Plus, how weird is it to say "Instead of the guy we got, we should have gotten THE NUMBER ONE OVERALL PICK, that would have been a better guy to get."?

[cpk1994]

I don't recall an NFL coach, general manager, or other honcho ever saying something like "Yeah, our tackles are playing like shit" to the media, whether or not it's true. There just doesn't seem to be a reason to do so, short of "appeasing the fans".I wouldn't say never:

Jim Mora and his "Diddly Poo" rant:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tie0tz7jGDI

[Partial]

Bretsky, if the Vanilla Bob firing goes down, will you perk up again? You seem to have become so deeply unhappy with the Packers. I know you say you don't care and you know it's about the long term future for Ted, but you really do seem pretty bummed about the whole thing.

Will getting rid of Vanilla Bob pump the life back into you? And if they throw Stock in there, will you be as excited as if two rather attrractive ladies showed up on your doorstep and offered to show affection for one another for your viewing pleasure?

If Vanilla Bob goes, I will start fund raising for a "Bring Back Bretsky" trip to the Oval Office.

[Lurker64]

I don't recall an NFL coach, general manager, or other honcho ever saying something like "Yeah, our tackles are playing like shit" to the media, whether or not it's true. There just doesn't seem to be a reason to do so, short of "appeasing the fans".I wouldn't say never:

Jim Mora and his "Diddly Poo" rant:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tie0tz7jGDI

But the important difference is that Mora was calling out everybody, players, coaches, special teams quality control coordinators, and was pointing to their failures in every aspect of the game. It's a little different to point fingers at one group of guys and say "Our DTs? Terrible" and not call out anybody else.

[Partial]

Some of those guys are fine backups. You can't have ten all-pros. They need to gameplan and run some stunts, etc to keep the offensive line off balance and make their jobs a little easier.

[Kyle.McCarroll]

So what would you all be saying if Hunter has a breakthrough as a speed rusher like KGB did in his third year? That and a healthy cullen jenkins would do wonders for this D. But alas, I hope its for a different coach than Sanders.

I'm sorry but I just don't get why people say that Cullen Jenkins would have made such a huge impact. Granted, he would have provided a better pass rush from RE, but I don't think he would have helped us in the biggest problem we have IMO, which is stopping the run.

Here are the Rush YPG from this year when Cullen was healthy...

Week 1: 187 yds rushing
Week 2: 49 yds rushning (but c'mon, it's the Lions)
Week 3: 217 yds rushing
Week 4: 178 yds rushing

I'm sorry but I just don't buy it.

[Bretsky]

Bretsky, if the Vanilla Bob firing goes down, will you perk up again? You seem to have become so deeply unhappy with the Packers. I know you say you don't care and you know it's about the long term future for Ted, but you really do seem pretty bummed about the whole thing.

Will getting rid of Vanilla Bob pump the life back into you? And if they throw Stock in there, will you be as excited as if two rather attrractive ladies showed up on your doorstep and offered to show affection for one another for your viewing pleasure?


Yes, I do think that would rejuvinate my hope in our long term future. And you are right.........I do deeply care but I'm at the point where it's almost learned helplessness. I expect them to melt down at some point, especially against a competent team. My emotions are near frozen on game day and thus the pain of a Carolina or Titan loss does not disappoint as much as it did lat year.

I'd have even more hope if we go outside (not Winston Moss) and hire somebody else. Just the fact that Moss has that title makes me wonder if he's a co conspirator.

Stock I'm fine with going, but I also feel they need better players on specials and cutting Tracy White was a mistake that they are paying for.

As far as the two ladies on the doorstep..........I say get rid of the Vanilla Man, keep Stock, and send over the two ladies :!: :lol:

[arcilite]

i only read the first post.

but take what TT says with a grain of salt (and that is a good thing)

we dont want him to say 'the DL sucks' that will undermine the team. I'd rather him be a 'snake in the grass' as partial says and say everything is fine then go sign haynesworth or draft 3 DL.

[Lurker64]

It's a bad idea to call out specific parts of the team that screw up when things don't go the right way. Since if you call out the DL everytime they get run on, and the CBs every time they get scorched, and the WRs everytime they drop the ball, etc. eventually guys are going to spend half their time looking over their shoulders and pointing their fingers at each other instead of, well, fixing the problem.

Better to just say " Defense has been disappointing" and make the personnel decisions that indicate what you really think.

[RashanGary]

Better to just say " Defense has been disappointing" and make the personnel decisions that indicate what you really think.


Very true. This is the first time a problem has come up that I really think should have been prevented by Ted. Most of them were the result of a really bad GM leading to his tenure. I wanted to hear that he recognizes the problem, but I understand why that would be foolish to say. If he says nothing and fixes it I'll be happy. If he says nthing and does nothing there is a huge red flag.

[texaspackerbacker]

The Packers have had problems on defense that have gotten worse as the season has gone along. And we sure haven't had any injuries or anything like that as extenuating circumstances, have we?

Four losses by four points or less--turn those around, and the whiners would probably still be whining about style points or something, but there wouldn't be near the urgency.

Jenkins, Barnett, Harris, Bigby, Rouse, Hawk, Harrell, have I missed anybody--missing significant playing time? Woodson, Collins, Jolly playing hurt--not to mention most of those who missed time playing hurt when they did play. No, that didn't have anything to do with it, did it?

Sheesh, how ignorant can you guys be? Get rid of Sanders and bring in some imbecile who blitzes over half the time; Scrap the man coverage, and go to mostly zone--like the perennial loser teams. Yeah right.

And all this after-the-fact idiocy about trading up in the draft--get real! For his first year, Mario Williams looked like a bust. Players like him are notorious for being one injury away from mediocrity. And Adrian Peterson seemed like an injury waiting to happen coming out of college. A great rookie year, a slightly less great second year, is there a trend there? I sure wouldn't bet the farm that he will have a long successful career. and even if he does, it would have been a stupid gamble to anticipate that and move up in the draft.

[b bulldog]

Ras, thanks for showing what we would have given up. I'd have done that deal in a second. Stud, difference maker, DE for a great WR, an average LB, a below average OL, and a oft injured, journeymen LB.

[Guiness]

And for the record, I agree that Mario is 3x as valuable as Hawk. Hawk was a so/so pick. A decent player, that's it. Mario and Bush turned out to be impact players. Not many others from the top part of that draft. And you were just as enamoured with VY so lets have some perspective on the accuracy of our crystal balls. I was dead sure the Williams wall would be suspended and now I odn't know. Right when you think you know something you probably don't.

It's all too easy to look back and say 'coulda, woulda, shoulda'.

Houston wasn't looking too smart the first year or so with Williams. Did everyone forget the toe surgery, slow comeback, etc? At the end of the rookie season, Hawk was looking like a much better player than Williams.

And Peterson - for where he went, anyone in the NFL could've had him if they wanted him bad enough. Maybe Minny was 100% sold, and wasn't getting out of that spot for love nor money, but I bet a pair of firsts would've gotten that pick from them when they were on the clock. If anyone had known, AP would've went, oh, 6 picks earlier?

[Gunakor]

last 27 games, 25 sacks and 6 forced fumbles. Probably the second best DE in the game behind Allen already, and he is only 23!!!!!!!!!! Obvioujsly I hav e a mancrush on him b ut the dude is a freak with skills.

What would it cost to move up from #5 to #1? Nobody is disputing Mario is a phenomenal player, but what would it have cost us to get him? He's just one player. I would not have wanted to lose out on Hawk, Jennings, AND Colledge just to get one stud DE. The value of those 3 players combined to this team is greater than the value would be of Mario by himself. Mario's salary could be comparable to those 3 players combined as well. Again, I agree Mario is a stud but it would have cost Green Bay much more to get him than it cost Houston. I'm not sure it would be worth it.

Edit: Just read Ras break it down. No way I'd do this deal, that's too much. Especially on top of the rediculous salary we'd be paying Mario as the #1 overall pick. We'd have a stud DE but would be crippled at a number of other positions and have less money to deal with it. Not worth it.

[Fritz]

Bretsky, if the Vanilla Bob firing goes down, will you perk up again? You seem to have become so deeply unhappy with the Packers. I know you say you don't care and you know it's about the long term future for Ted, but you really do seem pretty bummed about the whole thing.

Will getting rid of Vanilla Bob pump the life back into you? And if they throw Stock in there, will you be as excited as if two rather attrractive ladies showed up on your doorstep and offered to show affection for one another for your viewing pleasure?


Yes, I do think that would rejuvinate my hope in our long term future. And you are right.........I do deeply care but I'm at the point where it's almost learned helplessness. I expect them to melt down at some point, especially against a competent team. My emotions are near frozen on game day and thus the pain of a Carolina or Titan loss does not disappoint as much as it did lat year.

I'd have even more hope if we go outside (not Winston Moss) and hire somebody else. Just the fact that Moss has that title makes me wonder if he's a co conspirator.

Stock I'm fine with going, but I also feel they need better players on specials and cutting Tracy White was a mistake that they are paying for.

As far as the two ladies on the doorstep..........I say get rid of the Vanilla Man, keep Stock, and send over the two ladies :!: :lol:

Whew. that's my man. Okay.