Are most of the Packers coaches simply not very good???

[Patler]

When this staff was put together I complained bitterly (were we at JSO then?) that I did not like it because almost all came from mediocre backgrounds. They had been on staff after staff of teams that were not very successful. I even started a thread in which I had compiled the won-loss record of each coach. Wolf had said it was important to have a lot of coaches who knew success. This staff was lacking in those types.

Are these guys simply bad teachers? We have seen all of the following:
Too many penalties last year and this year. Is it bad coaching?
All but a few of the young guys developing rather slowly. Is it bad coaching?
Admitted mistakes in pre-snap alignments resulting in huge plays. Is it bad coaching?
Continual mistakes in "communication". Is it bad coaching?
Wrong player enters the game for an injured player. Is it bad coaching?
Not all players reading and reacting the same to given situations. Is it bad coaching?

Do the Packers have too many coaches with backgrounds like Schottenheimer? Very little proven success (in terms of winning) at what they do?

[prsnfoto]

When this staff was put together I complained bitterly (were we at JSO then?) that I did not like it because almost all came from mediocre backgrounds. They had been on staff after staff of teams that were not very successful. I even started a thread in which I had compiled the won-loss record of each coach. Wolf had said it was important to have a lot of coaches who knew success. This staff was lacking in those types.

Are these guys simply bad teachers? We have seen all of the following:
Too many penalties last year and this year. Is it bad coaching?
All but a few of the young guys developing rather slowly. Is it bad coaching?
Admitted mistakes in pre-snap alignments resulting in huge plays. Is it bad coaching?
Continual mistakes in "communication". Is it bad coaching?
Wrong player enters the game for an injured player. Is it bad coaching?
Not all players reading and reacting the same to given situations. Is it bad coaching?

Do the Packers have too many coaches with backgrounds like Schottenheimer? Very little proven success (in terms of winning) at what they do?


In a word YES

Some food for thought Ray Rhodes was fired for going 8-8 and I hated people for thinking it was racist, he was a bad head coach. This year has been much worse than what Ray did in terms of a failure were those who thought it was racially motivated right? or do the Packers simply have lower standards now?

[Bossman641]

When this staff was put together I complained bitterly (were we at JSO then?) that I did not like it because almost all came from mediocre backgrounds. They had been on staff after staff of teams that were not very successful. I even started a thread in which I had compiled the won-loss record of each coach. Wolf had said it was important to have a lot of coaches who knew success. This staff was lacking in those types.

Are these guys simply bad teachers? We have seen all of the following:
Too many penalties last year and this year. Is it bad coaching?
All but a few of the young guys developing rather slowly. Is it bad coaching?
Admitted mistakes in pre-snap alignments resulting in huge plays. Is it bad coaching?
Continual mistakes in "communication". Is it bad coaching?
Wrong player enters the game for an injured player. Is it bad coaching?
Not all players reading and reacting the same to given situations. Is it bad coaching?

Do the Packers have too many coaches with backgrounds like Schottenheimer? Very little proven success (in terms of winning) at what they do?


In a word YES

Some food for thought Ray Rhodes was fired for going 8-8 and I hated people for thinking it was racist, he was a bad head coach. This year has been much worse than what Ray did in terms of a failure were those who thought it was racially motivated right? or do the Packers simply have lower standards now?

MM has more of a leash because of the 13-3 last year and NFCCG appearance last year. That, combined with the fact that this team is beat up, buys him more time. Now, if we struggle next year as well then he is fair game.

[sheepshead]

When this staff was put together I complained bitterly (were we at JSO then?) that I did not like it because almost all came from mediocre backgrounds. They had been on staff after staff of teams that were not very successful. I even started a thread in which I had compiled the won-loss record of each coach. Wolf had said it was important to have a lot of coaches who knew success. This staff was lacking in those types.

Are these guys simply bad teachers? We have seen all of the following:
Too many penalties last year and this year. Is it bad coaching?
All but a few of the young guys developing rather slowly. Is it bad coaching?
Admitted mistakes in pre-snap alignments resulting in huge plays. Is it bad coaching?
Continual mistakes in "communication". Is it bad coaching?
Wrong player enters the game for an injured player. Is it bad coaching?
Not all players reading and reacting the same to given situations. Is it bad coaching?

Do the Packers have too many coaches with backgrounds like Schottenheimer? Very little proven success (in terms of winning) at what they do?

While it may seem unfair to flat out and say YES to all of these. In the real world of billion dollar football teams and 7 figure salaries...YES to all of the above. Some serious changes need to happen. Not necessarily a blood bath, but some changes non the less.

[prsnfoto]

But that is why it is a bigger collapse to go from 13 wins to 6-7 is losing control of your team or your boss giving no talent to work with or both. Good news if any of you want to go to a Packer game tickets will be virtually free for the Lions game two of my buddies went this week and paid $20 a ticket for middle high endzone seats the locals are not impressed with the TT regime this year it has really hurt their pocketbooks course they got rich last year. :D

[Patler]

Some food for thought Ray Rhodes was fired for going 8-8 and I hated people for thinking it was racist, he was a bad head coach. This year has been much worse than what Ray did in terms of a failure were those who thought it was racially motivated right? or do the Packers simply have lower standards now?

Wolf and others said the Rhodes firing was due to the fact that he had no control over the team and staff. He was not exercising authority. He was not leading. He was simply one of the guys.

I don't see that as being a problem with McCarthy.

I do expect to see a shake-up of sorts in the coaching staff. Unless there is a huge turnaround in the last three weeks, Sanders is probably gone. If the DC leaves, you can expect some other changes along with it on the defensive side of the ball.

Stock should be done. The roster is filled with strong ST type players. They even talked at the start of the year of being in the position that very good ST player would be inactive, they had so many. The punter was part of the problem, but both kickoff teams have varied between average and poor, especially the coverage team. Stock will pay for that.

I think the O-line needs better coaching, even if they stay primarily a zone team. Their performance is just too inconsistent.

[swede]

Affirmative PatRat, and I remember your early observations regarding the new staff and its lack of winning pedigree.

Players are dumped when they don't do their jobs. The coaches have had their turn to teach, motivate, scheme, adjust and have the product evaluated. If MM fires no one in the off-season then his own job goes on the line starting week one next year.

[Bretsky]

When this staff was put together I complained bitterly (were we at JSO then?) that I did not like it because almost all came from mediocre backgrounds. They had been on staff after staff of teams that were not very successful. I even started a thread in which I had compiled the won-loss record of each coach. Wolf had said it was important to have a lot of coaches who knew success. This staff was lacking in those types.

Are these guys simply bad teachers? We have seen all of the following:
Too many penalties last year and this year. Is it bad coaching?
All but a few of the young guys developing rather slowly. Is it bad coaching?
Admitted mistakes in pre-snap alignments resulting in huge plays. Is it bad coaching?
Continual mistakes in "communication". Is it bad coaching?
Wrong player enters the game for an injured player. Is it bad coaching?
Not all players reading and reacting the same to given situations. Is it bad coaching?

Do the Packers have too many coaches with backgrounds like Schottenheimer? Very little proven success (in terms of winning) at what they do?


How many coaches under MM have been hired elsewhere ? Just Jags, I think, who I kind of liked.

Sanders....gosh....anybody who watched the 2006 season could easily derive he's sub par

As SAD as this is...........if anybody asked me who I thought the best Coach on the staff is besides MM...............

The only one that stands out to me as being good ..................is..........

Tom Clements----QB Coach

[channtheman]

You know, I've often thought about this. The level of talent in the NFL is negligible. Sure there are the teams that have a better QB, whatever. But at the end of the day, I think that it all comes down to coaching. Games are won and lost by the coaches, IMO.

[Patler]

As SAD as this is...........if anybody asked me who I thought the best Coach on the staff is besides MM...............

The only one that stands out to me as being good ..................is..........

Tom Clements----QB Coach

Two I liked at the time were Clements and Edgar Bennett.
Bennett didn't have much of a background in real coaching at the time, but he won me over during the 4-12 season. They went through back after back after back. If I remember right the had something like seven or 8 different running backs that season. One would go down on Sunday, a new one would be signed on Wednesday, and Bennett had them ready to play the next Sunday.

[Fritz]

How did they go 13-3 last year, though, if the coaching is bad?

I'm not sure about this one. I'm not pleased with the defensive coordination, nor do I think much of Mike Stock. Yet the team's defense was ranked higher last year. Same coaches.

Tough call here.

[Gunakor]

How did they go 13-3 last year, though, if the coaching is bad?

I'm not sure about this one. I'm not pleased with the defensive coordination, nor do I think much of Mike Stock. Yet the team's defense was ranked higher last year. Same coaches.

Tough call here.

The team defense was much healthier last year too. Not only that, but our DT's were able to collapse the pocket last year. I never thought I'd be saying this, but I actually miss having Corey Williams - at least part time. While only average against the run - maybe a little below average - he could create pressure inside that we haven't seen much of at all this year.

[RashanGary]

I think a change in defensive and ST's coaches wouldn't hurt. I think they could do better but I also think they looked a lot better when they had better talent. Most of the blame IMO goes on the players (TED for not bringing better ones in, esspecially on the DL where no coach can make our zeros look good).

[Bretsky]

How did they go 13-3 last year, though, if the coaching is bad?

I'm not sure about this one. I'm not pleased with the defensive coordination, nor do I think much of Mike Stock. Yet the team's defense was ranked higher last year. Same coaches.

Tough call here.



Not sure you want my explanation cause I'll get flamed

But for starters we had a MVP performance from a QB...who often hid the weakness at OL due to his quick decision making process and superior ability to feel a pass rush due to his command of the offense.
Some very timely times when we played certain teams
Some luck, that good teams create (that is not us this year)
And a very deep DL

[Patler]

How did they go 13-3 last year, though, if the coaching is bad?

I'm not sure about this one. I'm not pleased with the defensive coordination, nor do I think much of Mike Stock. Yet the team's defense was ranked higher last year. Same coaches.

Tough call here.

Not sure you want my explanation cause I'll get flamed

But for starters we had a MVP performance from a QB...who often hid the weakness at OL due to his quick decision making process and superior ability to feel a pass rush due to his command of the offense.
Some very timely times when we played certain teams
Some luck, that good teams create (that is not us this year)
And a very deep DL

I agree with Bretsky's list, but will add another factor and ask a question.

First, the added factor. As others have mentioned, a big part of the success in 2007 was that they suffered no significant injuries. When you end the season with all of your preferred starters in place except for Grant having taken the starting job away, you are indeed very fortunate. Their starters lost very little playing time.

Now the question. Did you really believe the Packers were a 13-3 team last year, or did you have the feeling that everything just seemed to go their way resulting in a record better than they really were? A team that is 13-3 should be a great team, dominating many games. The Packers were not that kind of team last year. It really hit home for me when they were manhandled by Dallas and embarrassed by the Bears in the last part of the season.

In some ways 2007 and 2008 are at opposite ends of the luck and good fortune spectrum. I never felt the team was as good as their record in 2007, and I do not feel they are as bad as their record in 2008.

[cpk1994]

But that is why it is a bigger collapse to go from 13 wins to 6-7 is losing control of your team or your boss giving no talent to work with or both. Good news if any of you want to go to a Packer game tickets will be virtually free for the Lions game two of my buddies went this week and paid $20 a ticket for middle high endzone seats the locals are not impressed with the TT regime this year it has really hurt their pocketbooks course they got rich last year. :DThe Packers already got full price for the tickets. What the locals re sell it for matters nothing. It hasn't hit their pocketbook at all.

[Bretsky]

How did they go 13-3 last year, though, if the coaching is bad?

I'm not sure about this one. I'm not pleased with the defensive coordination, nor do I think much of Mike Stock. Yet the team's defense was ranked higher last year. Same coaches.

Tough call here.

Not sure you want my explanation cause I'll get flamed

But for starters we had a MVP performance from a QB...who often hid the weakness at OL due to his quick decision making process and superior ability to feel a pass rush due to his command of the offense.
Some very timely times when we played certain teams
Some luck, that good teams create (that is not us this year)
And a very deep DL

I agree with Bretsky's list, but will add another factor and ask a question.

First, the added factor. As others have mentioned, a big part of the success in 2007 was that they suffered no significant injuries. When you end the season with all of your preferred starters in place except for Grant having taken the starting job away, you are indeed very fortunate. Their starters lost very little playing time.

Now the question. Did you really believe the Packers were a 13-3 team last year, or did you have the feeling that everything just seemed to go their way resulting in a record better than they really were? A team that is 13-3 should be a great team, dominating many games. The Packers were not that kind of team last year. It really hit home for me when they were manhandled by Dallas and embarrassed by the Bears in the last part of the season.

In some ways 2007 and 2008 are at opposite ends of the luck and good fortune spectrum. I never felt the team was as good as their record in 2007, and I do not feel they are as bad as their record in 2008.

IMO they were a solid eleven win team; a very good team but not quite good enough to deserve to be in the big show..........a far cry from what we are witnessing this year

[prsnfoto]

But that is why it is a bigger collapse to go from 13 wins to 6-7 is losing control of your team or your boss giving no talent to work with or both. Good news if any of you want to go to a Packer game tickets will be virtually free for the Lions game two of my buddies went this week and paid $20 a ticket for middle high endzone seats the locals are not impressed with the TT regime this year it has really hurt their pocketbooks course they got rich last year. :DThe Packers already got full price for the tickets. What the locals re sell it for matters nothing. It hasn't hit their pocketbook at all.

I was referring to the ticket holders pocketbooks, but you are mistaken if you think the Packers bottom line will not be effected if fans are pissed they drink less, eat less, buy less jersey's,rent the atrium for weddings and receptions less etc. I would venture to guess they lost a lot more revenue from their numbers last year lucky for them they will get some revenue sharing from Jets jersey sales. :D

[prsnfoto]

How did they go 13-3 last year, though, if the coaching is bad?

I'm not sure about this one. I'm not pleased with the defensive coordination, nor do I think much of Mike Stock. Yet the team's defense was ranked higher last year. Same coaches.

Tough call here.



Not sure you want my explanation cause I'll get flamed

But for starters we had a MVP performance from a QB...who often hid the weakness at OL due to his quick decision making process and superior ability to feel a pass rush due to his command of the offense.
Some very timely times when we played certain teams
Some luck, that good teams create (that is not us this year)
And a very deep DL



BINGO

And here is the problem forward if you change the ST and D coaches then they will start will all new systems again(though the ST besides the kicker has been bad since the late nineties) that could set them back a couple more years and spell even more disaster for TT and MM. I think the schedule next year is easier than this year with the NFC West and our own pathetic division anything short of 10-12 wins should get a house cleaning.

[Patler]

And here is the problem forward if you change the ST and D coaches then they will start will all new systems again(though the ST besides the kicker has been bad since the late nineties) that could set them back a couple more years and spell even more disaster for TT and MM.

STs are sort of a new thing every year anyway. A few holdover players, but usually a lot of new ones, too.

Changing a defensive or offensive coordinator doesn't necessarily have to involve a huge change for the players. Sometimes different coaches with similar systems can get better performances by "calling" a better game, by teaching the same system better, or by just getting the players to buy in and perform better. Some coaches are better than others at utilizing their team's strengths and exploiting their opponents' weaknesses. Sometimes it is just a matter of tweaking the system, not wholesale changes.

[prsnfoto]

And here is the problem forward if you change the ST and D coaches then they will start will all new systems again(though the ST besides the kicker has been bad since the late nineties) that could set them back a couple more years and spell even more disaster for TT and MM.

STs are sort of a new thing every year anyway. A few holdover players, but usually a lot of new ones, too.

Changing a defensive or offensive coordinator doesn't necessarily have to involve a huge change for the players. Sometimes different coaches with similar systems can get better performances by "calling" a better game, by teaching the same system better, or by just getting the players to buy in and perform better. Some coaches are better than others at utilizing their team's strengths and exploiting their opponents' weaknesses. Sometimes it is just a matter of tweaking the system, not wholesale changes.

That can be true if there is a firecracker below them maybe Winston Moss, I just remember how Barnett complained about 4 different systems his first four years and really Slowik(blitz every down) was a huge difference, I think Bates,Donatell, Sanders all played a pretty safe bend don't break Defense, but Bates probably was the best coach and motivator.

[pbmax]

How did they go 13-3 last year, though, if the coaching is bad?

I'm not sure about this one. I'm not pleased with the defensive coordination, nor do I think much of Mike Stock. Yet the team's defense was ranked higher last year. Same coaches.

Tough call here.
Schedule. The Packers played one of the easiest schedules last year, facing a ridiculously bad AFC West. This year the schedule is tougher, as is the Division save for the Lions. Last I checked it was top ten, but the last four games will pull the average down.

While I do not deny Bretsky's list, its informative to note that some of the easiest schedules in the league this year reside in the AFC East. Which explains some of what the Jets and Dolphins have accomplished. Not all, but some. Brady being hurt is one item in a long list affecting the schedule out East.

Coaches and players do not vary as much as we think from year to year, with the possible exception of first or second year players/coaches. We were not 13 Wins good last year and it is showing this year.

The oddity this year is not 5-8, its that our best games have been against the better teams (save New Orleans). I think we have enough talent except for the Defensive front seven. And even that is tough to judge given Jenkins injury. Clearly, there is not enough depth.

That's not to say we are among the most talented teams, but it isn't a 5 win talent level either. As for coaching, the offense has made more strides than the defense, but the D has the most talent holes. Pick your poison.

[pbmax]

That can be true if there is a firecracker below them maybe Winston Moss, I just remember how Barnett complained about 4 different systems his first four years and really Slowik(blitz every down) was a huge difference, I think Bates,Donatell, Sanders all played a pretty safe bend don't break Defense, but Bates probably was the best coach and motivator.
Given the linebackers struggles, I am not eager to see Winston Moss as a D coordinator. If we change, they should all go in favor of the new Coord's picks.

[prsnfoto]

How did they go 13-3 last year, though, if the coaching is bad?

I'm not sure about this one. I'm not pleased with the defensive coordination, nor do I think much of Mike Stock. Yet the team's defense was ranked higher last year. Same coaches.

Tough call here.

That is an easy answer not that I think Sanders is a genius, but TT fucked him royally last year they were healthy and had depth this year they are dinged up and have no depth at LB or Dline and he got rid of the best ST player(Tracy White) on the team most of the time the problem starts at the top , but they don't always pay the price first.

[Fritz]

No, Bretsky, I always value your opinions, even if I don't agree. I do think that Favre's presence masked some problems on offense - slightly - because the offense clearly sucked in the first six weeks last year.

My sense is that they weren't as good as their record last year. But watching this team this year reminds me of watching the Packers of the 80's. Aggravating as all get out. The team plays like crap, shows some flashes of ability on offense, then loses at the end. The defense can't hold a lead, the offense is inconsistent.

It's the Dickey/Majkowski years. Acckkk!

[Bretsky]

No, Bretsky, I always value your opinions, even if I don't agree. I do think that Favre's presence masked some problems on offense - slightly - because the offense clearly sucked in the first six weeks last year.

My sense is that they weren't as good as their record last year. But watching this team this year reminds me of watching the Packers of the 80's. Aggravating as all get out. The team plays like crap, shows some flashes of ability on offense, then loses at the end. The defense can't hold a lead, the offense is inconsistent.

It's the Dickey/Majkowski years. Acckkk!


On paper this team is a borderline playoff team. They just have a few missing pieces. I strongly believe that. If the right offseason moves are made this team IMO can contend and go deep into the playoffs in 09.

[pack4to84]

No, Bretsky, I always value your opinions, even if I don't agree. I do think that Favre's presence masked some problems on offense - slightly - because the offense clearly sucked in the first six weeks last year.

My sense is that they weren't as good as their record last year. But watching this team this year reminds me of watching the Packers of the 80's. Aggravating as all get out. The team plays like crap, shows some flashes of ability on offense, then loses at the end. The defense can't hold a lead, the offense is inconsistent.

It's the Dickey/Majkowski years. Acckkk!


On paper this team is a borderline playoff team. They just have a few missing pieces. I strongly believe that. If the right offseason moves are made this team IMO can contend and go deep into the playoffs in 09. I agree with this.