Can the Packers rely on Cullen Jenkins?

[Partial]

This guy seems to be habitually injured. Last year he said he had nagging injuries all year long which led to him under performing. I feel like he has missed significant time just about every year.

Any thoughts?

[Fritz]

Draft a couple of defensive ends and a couple of defensive tackles in 09.

Them's my thoughts.

[Patler]

I think no, they can not. Even before last year, and even though he played, Jenkins had other instances with injuries that made him questionable. Last year the coaches said he needed to play through his injuries better, and not let them impact the way he played as much as he did. Obviously, he did not have that opportunity this year, but I think that is a concern.

Kampman, Driver and others you know will show up on Sunday and play well even if they are dinged up. I do not get that feeling from Jenkins. If he is healthy he will play very well, but not many NFL players stay healthy the whole season. As he gets older, it is likely to only get worse for Jenkins.

[Patler]

Further to my last post, as you might recall, when they replaced KGB with Jenkins in 2006 they said they would have a couple weeks earlier, but Jenkins was hurt. So his ability to play DE has been limited for three consecutive years due to injuries.

[Freak Out]

Draft a couple of defensive ends and a couple of defensive tackles in 09.

Them's my thoughts.

Either through the draft or FA we need help on the D-Line. As far as Jenkins goes he has shown he cannot be counted on to be there when needed.

[texaspackerbacker]

Injuries are about 98% LUCK--like tossing a coin.

You toss a coin and it comes up heads ten times in a row, are you gonna bet that it comes up heads the next time? Math and logic says no.

Jenkins has been a good player when healthy. There's no indication his injuries should have a lingering effect. Giving up on him, therefore, would be foolish.

As for using half or more of the draft for D Linemen, I say no way. Nobody we have has been horrible--some kinda mediocre, a couple still needing development, but none that I would summarily get rid of. If we could draft one highly probable superstar D Lineman, yeah, do it. But anything you get from round 2 through 7 would probably be no better than what we have--especially in the short term.

[3irty1]

Injuries are about 98% LUCK--like tossing a coin.

You toss a coin and it comes up heads ten times in a row, are you gonna bet that it comes up heads the next time? Math and logic says no.

Jenkins has been a good player when healthy. There's no indication his injuries should have a lingering effect. Giving up on him, therefore, would be foolish.

As for using half or more of the draft for D Linemen, I say no way. Nobody we have has been horrible--some kinda mediocre, a couple still needing development, but none that I would summarily get rid of. If we could draft one highly probable superstar D Lineman, yeah, do it. But anything you get from round 2 through 7 would probably be no better than what we have--especially in the short term.

Playing though injuries or letting injuries affect your play is not luck though. Everybody gets hurt in the NFL. If the coaches think think he whines about injuries and lets them affect his play too much then that is cause for concern.

[texaspackerbacker]

Injuries are about 98% LUCK--like tossing a coin.

You toss a coin and it comes up heads ten times in a row, are you gonna bet that it comes up heads the next time? Math and logic says no.

Jenkins has been a good player when healthy. There's no indication his injuries should have a lingering effect. Giving up on him, therefore, would be foolish.

As for using half or more of the draft for D Linemen, I say no way. Nobody we have has been horrible--some kinda mediocre, a couple still needing development, but none that I would summarily get rid of. If we could draft one highly probable superstar D Lineman, yeah, do it. But anything you get from round 2 through 7 would probably be no better than what we have--especially in the short term.

Playing though injuries or letting injuries affect your play is not luck though. Everybody gets hurt in the NFL. If the coaches think think he whines about injuries and lets them affect his play too much then that is cause for concern.

Play through the injury Jenkins has? Are you kidding?

As for playing through lesser injuries, yeah, the Packers have been forced to do a lot of that--Hawk, Bigby, Woodson, Collins, etc. That's another large factor in the lousy performance on defense--in additon to the guys actually missing games.

You want to blame that on Sanders too? Yeah right.

If this does turn out to be one of those situations where somebody has to get fired to satisfy the idiots, then Moss would seem to be an acceptable replacement, as it seems safe to assume he would continue the same scheme.

[hoosier]

Injuries are about 98% LUCK--like tossing a coin.

You toss a coin and it comes up heads ten times in a row, are you gonna bet that it comes up heads the next time? Math and logic says no.
Jenkins has been a good player when healthy. There's no indication his injuries should have a lingering effect. Giving up on him, therefore, would be foolish.

As for using half or more of the draft for D Linemen, I say no way. Nobody we have has been horrible--some kinda mediocre, a couple still needing development, but none that I would summarily get rid of. If we could draft one highly probable superstar D Lineman, yeah, do it. But anything you get from round 2 through 7 would probably be no better than what we have--especially in the short term.

Sorry, but math and logic say it's 50-50 on the 11th toss. But Cullen Jenkins isn't a coin, he's a defensive lineman who seems to be injury prone. A better analogy: if you buy a Ford car and it breaks down, and then buy another and it too breaks down, and then buy a third and, sure enough, it also goes kaput, would you be dumb enough to buy a fourth?

[3irty1]

Injuries are about 98% LUCK--like tossing a coin.

You toss a coin and it comes up heads ten times in a row, are you gonna bet that it comes up heads the next time? Math and logic says no.

Jenkins has been a good player when healthy. There's no indication his injuries should have a lingering effect. Giving up on him, therefore, would be foolish.

As for using half or more of the draft for D Linemen, I say no way. Nobody we have has been horrible--some kinda mediocre, a couple still needing development, but none that I would summarily get rid of. If we could draft one highly probable superstar D Lineman, yeah, do it. But anything you get from round 2 through 7 would probably be no better than what we have--especially in the short term.

Playing though injuries or letting injuries affect your play is not luck though. Everybody gets hurt in the NFL. If the coaches think think he whines about injuries and lets them affect his play too much then that is cause for concern.

Play through the injury Jenkins has? Are you kidding?

As for playing through lesser injuries, yeah, the Packers have been forced to do a lot of that--Hawk, Bigby, Woodson, Collins, etc. That's another large factor in the lousy performance on defense--in additon to the guys actually missing games.

You want to blame that on Sanders too? Yeah right.

If this does turn out to be one of those situations where somebody has to get fired to satisfy the idiots, then Moss would seem to be an acceptable replacement, as it seems safe to assume he would continue the same scheme.

Obviously you can't play through everything but last year he became steadily less and less effective. Patler suggested a couple posts above that injuries affect his play more than some other guys. There is no doubt he is great when healthy but the best guys stay effective even when not at 100%.

The point you raised is why I'm actually something of a closet Harrell fan. Injuries can be bad luck but I like a guy who plays in college despite torn biceps. I don't think he's necessarily as soft as some people think, mostly unlucky.

[Partial]

Injuries are about 98% LUCK--like tossing a coin.

You toss a coin and it comes up heads ten times in a row, are you gonna bet that it comes up heads the next time? Math and logic says no.


Math and logic say that coin has a 50% chance of coming up heads. The probability of it happening are very slim to toss that many in a row, but past logic does not determine former logic.

With that said, that does not apply to football. Jenkins has been banged up continuously throughout his career and has never been able to reach his potential as a result. How many years can we keep a guy around that has a ton of potential and is great for 2-3 weeks, than not available for months at a time?!?

You can't do that in the NFL. Cap dollars and roster spots are far too valuable. When its a one time thing, fine, but guys like Harrell, Blackmon and Jenkins have had the injury bug since being in the NFL.

[texaspackerbacker]

I think we are pretty much in agreement. I still think Harrell could be an above average player too.

Some injuries can be gutted out, and some just slow you down and reduce quality of play no matter what--Hawk's groin, Bigby's knee, etc. Apparently, Woodson's toe is different. I really don't think it says anything about the guy's character. It's still luck as to what kind of injury it is.

Rarely, you get something like Marian Barber's finger that the guy wimps out, but I can't think of any of that with the Packers.

[Patler]

The comment I referred to was toward the end of last season. In an article about Jenkins year that did not meet expectations, it was either Hairston or Nunn I think who said they had been working very hard with Jenkins to get him to realize that he would rarely ever feel 100%. That he needed to figure out how to do what he can in spite of the injuries. He implied that Jenkins was allowing the injury to affect his play in ways that it shouldn't. I was surprised by the bluntness of the comment.

[Cheesehead Craig]

I think we do need to draft a DE in the first day of the draft. While Jenkins seems to play very good when healthy, we have seen how weak we are behind him should and injury occur. I don't think anyone is saying to give up on Jenkins, but we shouldn't be putting all our eggs in his basket at one of the DE spots given his injury history.

[Patler]

I think we do need to draft a DE in the first day of the draft. While Jenkins seems to play very good when healthy, we have seen how weak we are behind him should and injury occur. I don't think anyone is saying to give up on Jenkins, but we shouldn't be putting all our eggs in his basket at one of the DE spots given his injury history.

Not only depth for injury replacement. Kampman would probably benefit from not having to play 99.99% of the defensive snaps, too. He is entering a point in his career in which some rest might improve his effectiveness.

[texaspackerbacker]

Injuries are about 98% LUCK--like tossing a coin.

You toss a coin and it comes up heads ten times in a row, are you gonna bet that it comes up heads the next time? Math and logic says no.
Jenkins has been a good player when healthy. There's no indication his injuries should have a lingering effect. Giving up on him, therefore, would be foolish.

As for using half or more of the draft for D Linemen, I say no way. Nobody we have has been horrible--some kinda mediocre, a couple still needing development, but none that I would summarily get rid of. If we could draft one highly probable superstar D Lineman, yeah, do it. But anything you get from round 2 through 7 would probably be no better than what we have--especially in the short term.

Sorry, but math and logic say it's 50-50 on the 11th toss. But Cullen Jenkins isn't a coin, he's a defensive lineman who seems to be injury prone. A better analogy: if you buy a Ford car and it breaks down, and then buy another and it too breaks down, and then buy a third and, sure enough, it also goes kaput, would you be dumb enough to buy a fourth?

The flaw in your example, Hoosier, is that (according to you, at least) car problems are NOT a matter of luck (I wiould contend that car problems are luck too, but that's a different argument). Injuries--Jenkins or others--are a lot more like the coin toss--pure luck. Thus, assuming there isn't lingering damage, each new season is like a new coin toss--no more likely to get injured than any other player.

[Partial]

Injuries are about 98% LUCK--like tossing a coin.

You toss a coin and it comes up heads ten times in a row, are you gonna bet that it comes up heads the next time? Math and logic says no.
Jenkins has been a good player when healthy. There's no indication his injuries should have a lingering effect. Giving up on him, therefore, would be foolish.

As for using half or more of the draft for D Linemen, I say no way. Nobody we have has been horrible--some kinda mediocre, a couple still needing development, but none that I would summarily get rid of. If we could draft one highly probable superstar D Lineman, yeah, do it. But anything you get from round 2 through 7 would probably be no better than what we have--especially in the short term.

Sorry, but math and logic say it's 50-50 on the 11th toss. But Cullen Jenkins isn't a coin, he's a defensive lineman who seems to be injury prone. A better analogy: if you buy a Ford car and it breaks down, and then buy another and it too breaks down, and then buy a third and, sure enough, it also goes kaput, would you be dumb enough to buy a fourth?

The flaw in your example, Hoosier, is that (according to you, at least) car problems are NOT a matter of luck (I wiould contend that car problems are luck too, but that's a different argument). Injuries--Jenkins or others--are a lot more like the coin toss--pure luck. Thus, assuming there isn't lingering damage, each new season is like a new coin toss--no more likely to get injured than any other player.

I disagree. Some people have the bodies that can take punishment, and others don't. You're trying to tell me Favre just got incredibly lucky, and that he is really as fragile as your average QB?

[Fritz]

Cullen Jenkins is not a coin!

I think that's the coolest thing I've read in awhile.

And I agree with Partial on this topic.

[texaspackerbacker]

And those fragile types seldom make it to NCAA football, much less the NFL.

If somebody breaks the same bone several times back to back to back, then maybe, just maybe, he is prone to that particular injury.

But Jenkins--and most NFL players that seem like they have a series of injuries--will get a left knee, a right wrist, a rib, a concussion, whatever--unrelated crap that is nothing but BAD LUCK.

[Fritz]

Maybe the title of this thread should have been "Can We Count on Cullen Jenkins to Be Lucky?"

[Gunakor]

And those fragile types seldom make it to NCAA football, much less the NFL.

If somebody breaks the same bone several times back to back to back, then maybe, just maybe, he is prone to that particular injury.

But Jenkins--and most NFL players that seem like they have a series of injuries--will get a left knee, a right wrist, a rib, a concussion, whatever--unrelated crap that is nothing but BAD LUCK.

Or maybe it's a sign of an overall inability to take the punishment that any NFL defensive lineman has to take over a long 16 game season. Or perhaps it's lack of desire, or a sign or poor conditioning. It's not just a simple matter of luck.

[Guiness]

And those fragile types seldom make it to NCAA football, much less the NFL.

If somebody breaks the same bone several times back to back to back, then maybe, just maybe, he is prone to that particular injury.

But Jenkins--and most NFL players that seem like they have a series of injuries--will get a left knee, a right wrist, a rib, a concussion, whatever--unrelated crap that is nothing but BAD LUCK.

Or maybe it's a sign of an overall inability to take the punishment that any NFL defensive lineman has to take over a long 16 game season. Or perhaps it's lack of desire, or a sign or poor conditioning. It's not just a simple matter of luck.

Yes, some injuries can be attributed to bad luck - file it under the "it's a violent sport" category. For instance, when I saw Vonta Leach roll over Collins this w/e, it wouldn't have been surprised to hear it caused a more serious injury.

I would tend to think coaching staffs pay more attention to soft tissue injuries that keep a guy out to see if a guy is going to stand up. I think those can be attributed to conditioning, inability to play through or maybe even bad mechanics. Ligament and tendon injuries can also be a sign of an overzealous supplement program.

[Merlin]

Supposedly we have a very good strength and conditioning coach. At least that was what was reported when McCarthy hired whoever it was. To be honest I don't know a lot about that program. Injuries will happen, that is part of the game. Jenkins brother Kris hasn't exactly been the picture of health in his career yet he is regarded as a very good DL. He may not be as good as his brother but he is better then average and certainly better then serveral of the DL we have.

[Guiness]

Supposedly we have a very good strength and conditioning coach. At least that was what was reported when McCarthy hired whoever it was. To be honest I don't know a lot about that program. Injuries will happen, that is part of the game. Jenkins brother Kris hasn't exactly been the picture of health in his career yet he is regarded as a very good DL. He may not be as good as his brother but he is better then average and certainly better then serveral of the DL we have.

That would be Rock Gullickson, came to the Packers in '06, and was at least partially credited with decreasing team injuries by getting rid of a lot of machines, and replacing them with free weights.

Just had a look at his bio on the Packers site. Did anyone know that there is a "Professional Football Strength and Conditioning Coaches Society"?

[texaspackerbacker]

Maybe the title of this thread should have been "Can We Count on Cullen Jenkins to Be Lucky?"

I wouldn't take him to Vegas and rub him for good luck ..... but then I wouldn't do that with Favre or whoever either.

[run pMc]

Regardless of whether Jenkins can stay healthy, I think Jeremy Thompson could improve and will be given a chance to push for the starting spot.

I agree they need to find someone to spell Kampman. It seems like his productivity drops after about 12 games, so I wonder if he just wears down.

I don't think Montgomery is the answer at DE. Same for Hunter, although he has value as a ST ace. (Supposedly so did Tracy White.)

The defense has had too much trouble pressuring QB's and stopping the run -- both recipes for disaster. I'm expecting some changes on the DL this offseason.

[KYPack]

We are hurtin' for certain at RDE. Thompson has potential, but he needs to fill out. He's still a young kid physically. He has upside, the kid can run.

Montgomery & Hunter?, bye bye to Monty, Hunter may keep his spot due to ST.

The White cut was an area where TT's hang-ups got us. We lost Haynos to Miami, & then they came sniffing around after Lasagna. TT didn't want to lose two good looking kids to the same team. So White got the ax. Our kick rush team went to hell soon after. White was the vet bull goose of that bunch and they were lost w/out their leader.

Long term, it was no big deal, they can get or grow another White. But for the season, it really screwed us up.

[DonHutson]

Clearly we can't. That doesn't mean get rid of him, or give up on him. But it does mean that anything you get out of him should be considered a bonus, and you'd be stupid not to enhance the depth behind him.

Even with a healthy Jenkins, they need another pass rusher for sure. They also need to bulk up against the run both inside and out. I could easily see two ends and a tackle picked in the first four rounds (five picks).

That would assume Kampman, Jenkins, Thompson, a rookie pass rusher, and a rookie run stuffer at end. It would be great if the pass rusher and the run stuffer were the same guy, but they're few and far between.

DT would be Pickett, Jolly, a rookie who can stuff the run, plus Harrell and/or Cole.

[Pugger]

This year our D line play suffered because Jolly and Pickett, for whatever reason, are not playing at the level they did last year and Harrell unable to stay on the field so having Jenkins on IR hurts us even more. :cry:

[texaspackerbacker]

I'm reading a lot of bad words about Montgomery in here. From what I've seen, he's been almost as good as Kampman in pass rushing and a helluva lot better than Kampman against the run.

There would seem to be a strong chance Jenkins will be good as new for next season, and with LUCK, he won't get hurt again. Between him and Kampman and Montgomery and Thompson and possibly some help from Hunter, I think the Packers are well-stocked at DE.

[Guiness]

The White cut was an area where TT's hang-ups got us. We lost Haynos to Miami, & then they came sniffing around after Lasagna. TT didn't want to lose two good looking kids to the same team. So White got the ax. Our kick rush team went to hell soon after. White was the vet bull goose of that bunch and they were lost w/out their leader.

Long term, it was no big deal, they can get or grow another White. But for the season, it really screwed us up.

If White's leaving had as much effect as you and others are saying, I honestly wonder if cutting him cost us the playoffs?

I'm not kidding. A couple less big returns in these past few games might've been the difference between a win and a loss, and one more win right now gives us a very different outlook.

[DonHutson]

This year our D line play suffered because Jolly and Pickett, for whatever reason, are not playing at the level they did last year

I believe Pickett is playing hurt. He's also playing a ton of snaps. Bad combo.

I have no idea what Jolly's problem is. He's played a lot of snaps, too. Maybe he just doesn't have the endurance to play full time. Whatever it is, he failed to step up and it was a problem.

[denverYooper]

This year our D line play suffered because Jolly and Pickett, for whatever reason, are not playing at the level they did last year

I have no idea what Jolly's problem is. He's played a lot of snaps, too. Maybe he just doesn't have the endurance to play full time. Whatever it is, he failed to step up and it was a problem.

too much lean.

[Gunakor]

I'm reading a lot of bad words about Montgomery in here. From what I've seen, he's been almost as good as Kampman in pass rushing and a helluva lot better than Kampman against the run.

There would seem to be a strong chance Jenkins will be good as new for next season, and with LUCK, he won't get hurt again. Between him and Kampman and Montgomery and Thompson and possibly some help from Hunter, I think the Packers are well-stocked at DE.

He's not nearly as good as Kampman rushing the passer, but he's a helluva lot better than KGB against the run. I think the need at DT is greater than the one at DE, because stopping the run should be the #1 priority of any defense, but that being said I'd like to see a much better pass rush from our DE's than I've seen this year. And I don't think Monty is going to get that done.