ZBS lineman vs power lineman

[packers11]

I know we still have the same tackles from 2003-2004 season were A Green had 1800 yards, but the whole interior line is different... With the ZBS I understand we use faster slimmer inside lineman so they can pull and get down the filed faster, but my question is, why are we still with it???

Why haven't the Packers gone back to the old style with huge lineman up front so when they need 1 yard we can make a hole in the middle???

Ex : The Falcons used to be ZBS when Dunn/Vick were under the helm, but have switched back to power running since late last year and this year with (Turner)...

The Cowboys have always had a huge O-line and every-time I see a 3rd or 4th and 1 they can easily plow ahead for one more yard...

I see more benefits in bigger slower o-lineman then the zbs type that we have...

Thoughts?

[sharpe1027]

I haven't seen more than a handfull of successful cut-backs all year. Those are supposed to be the big hitters for the ZBS. Maybe teams have made adjustments and are generally staying home. In essence they are willing to give up 3 or 4 yards to prevent the big play.

Whatever is going on, they really haven't busted a big run all year.

[bobblehead]

Where did you read the falcons don't use ZBS anymore? I watched the game the other day and it sure looked like ZBS to me. I'm no expert but I recognize backside cuts and guards releasing to LB's when I see it.

[Gunakor]

Where did you read the falcons don't use ZBS anymore? I watched the game the other day and it sure looked like ZBS to me. I'm no expert but I recognize backside cuts and guards releasing to LB's when I see it.

Yep. Atlanta still uses ZBS. Although it isn't pure ZBS, rather it is a hybrid power/zone run scheme similar to what the Packers run. Heh, I guess some people don't realize that about the Packers either... Yeah guys, we run some power stuff too. It's not all ZBS.

[Noodle]

I think the question isn't "why don't we run power"; rather, the question in the thread is "why don't we get some road graders."

Yes, we run power, but our guys up front don't seem to be too good at it. Once in a while they'll uncork one, but we've mostly been getting stoned at the point of attack when we try dive plays.

The cutbacks aren't there because our tackles have not been good at cutting backside pursuit. So we have the worst of both worlds -- tackles who do not excel at the cutting required for ZBS to bust big ones, and guards and a center who do not excel at paving a path straight ahead when you really need that yard or two.

I don't know how TT is going to address this. My guess is he may get a tackle, but he'll rely on his interior guys getting bigger and better over the offseason.

[KYPack]

4 teams run a Gibbs style ZBS a lot.

Denver The originator

Houston. Gibbs works for 'em when he isn't in the nuthouse

Atlanta The went totally away from it when Petrino was there, but Smith has re-installed it

GB. Mainly a hybrid ZBS and some power gap sprinkled in.

We are the worst at it, near as I can see. Philbin and Campen modified our original ZBS that Jags put in when he was here. Tausch and Cliffy aren't really ZBS tackles, so the coaches put in the hybrid that we run now. We are committed to it, I guess. Campen cut his teeth on Power gap. Both him and Phibin maintain the ZBS 'cause MM wants it er what? MM got his start in mainly power gap with WC passing attack.

I really don't know where our base philosophy is at anymore. We don't have particularly good drive blocking interior lineman. Sitton is the only real bull type we have, and he's still a clumsy kid.

i have no feel for our philosophy or our direction anymore

[Noodle]

i have no feel for our philosophy or our direction anymore

KY nailed it -- this is the heart of the problem. It isn't Arod, or Grant, or even the defense, as far as I'm concerned. It's the lack of a guiding philosophy for our OL.

There is no play, or concept, that defines this OL. There is not one play that our guys can say: This is what we do -- try to stop it. Lombardi had the sweep, the Redskins teams under Gibbs had counter trey, the Parcells teams have variations on power gap, the great Denver teams had ZBS. What have we got?

I don't care if it is ZBS or power gap or something I've never heard of. The point is, get really, really good at something. That doesn't mean you get predictible, as you can riff off of what you do well, but you have to have something that will get you those 2 or 3 yards damn near every time.

[bobblehead]

What we are supposed to do well is mix it up and keep the defense off balance. We are supposed to chew up the clock, keep the other teams offense out of rythm while tiring out their defense. We are supposed to own field position. We aren't supposed to knock off big plays (surprisingly what we are doing best this year).

We aren't doing a few of those things very well right now, mainly because our defense can't stop 3rd and 19. Our special teams aren't exactly winning the battle of field position either. Our offense is doing the job OK, not great, merely ok. So basically out of the 3 phazes of the game we are losing 2 of them and pushing another.

To all the ARod bashers...no he isn't all pro caliber yet. He is damn good though. Give him a running game and an adequate line and he is capable of winning a superbowl...and I didn't think we would know that this year. He might not convert 3rd and long like BF or Brady, but he is very good. He doesn't turn the ball over much. He makes plays with his arm first, and feet when all esle fails. From the living room its hard to say if he is holding th ball too long at times or if guys aren't getting open. Announcers are saying teams are smothering the underneath stuff...makes sense since our OL can't hold off the dogs long enough for the deeper stuff to develope.

[run pMc]

It's a copycat league, and when DEN had all that success with the ZBS a lot of teams started to dabble with it. Most teams have at least a play or two that uses zone blocking.

To be primarily a ZBS team the tackles have to be a bit more athletic than what GB has. Also, Clifton has had a bad year (relatively speaking).

I expect the OL will get addressed again in the draft. I can't help but think of Brennan Curtin when Giacomini is mentioned (I hope I'm wrong), and Wells is a bit undersized. I wouldn't be surprised to see Spitz start at C and Sitton take the RG spot. Colledge will be the LG unless Barbre beats him.

Off topic: I've read where people say Barbre punched a coach and that's what has got him in the doghouse. Can anyone substantiate this? Is this a rumor?

So the OL is still a work in progress, and the run game and pass pro has suffered.

One problem I see is that GB doesn't seem to have a run play they can hang their hat on. (I'm not counting the QB sneak.) When they need to chew up the clock or pick up a critical 3rd and 2, I don't know what this team has in the run game that it can rely on.
(I can already hear the cries to bring back U71 package.)
Seriously, a FB dive to Kuhn or a pitchout to Grant doesn't inspire confidence...and IMO that's a problem.

[KYPack]

It's a copycat league, and when DEN had all that success with the ZBS a lot of teams started to dabble with it. Most teams have at least a play or two that uses zone blocking.

To be primarily a ZBS team the tackles have to be a bit more athletic than what GB has. Also, Clifton has had a bad year (relatively speaking).

I expect the OL will get addressed again in the draft. I can't help but think of Brennan Curtin when Giacomini is mentioned (I hope I'm wrong), and Wells is a bit undersized. I wouldn't be surprised to see Spitz start at C and Sitton take the RG spot. Colledge will be the LG unless Barbre beats him.

Off topic: I've read where people say Barbre punched a coach and that's what has got him in the doghouse. Can anyone substantiate this? Is this a rumor?

So the OL is still a work in progress, and the run game and pass pro has suffered.

One problem I see is that GB doesn't seem to have a run play they can hang their hat on. (I'm not counting the QB sneak.) When they need to chew up the clock or pick up a critical 3rd and 2, I don't know what this team has in the run game that it can rely on.
(I can already hear the cries to bring back U71 package.)
Seriously, a FB dive to Kuhn or a pitchout to Grant doesn't inspire confidence...and IMO that's a problem.

The "Barbre punched a coach and that's what has got him in the doghouse" is a Packer Rats urban legend. We had a thread going in which we trying to figure out what happened to Barbre that got him so buried in the lineup. The guy has been inactive for many games this season.

One person posted that Barbre must have done something terrible to be so far down on the pecking order, like punch a coach or something. It was basically a joke, people picked up on it and the tale lingers.

The GBPG had a little blurb that Barbre had a real bad camp and was totally screwing up in his footwork and other basics and wound up in the doghouse for inconsistent play. I think that's the real reason for his banishment to inactive-land. The coaches don't trust him and are pissed at him.

It happens to young lineman, that all.

[gex]

Bigger and stronger is better when it comes to both sides of the lines, you gotta teach em how to use their feet and pull and whatnot, but you cant teach size. ( a little nastiness doesn't hurt either)

[run pMc]

The "Barbre punched a coach and that's what has got him in the doghouse" is a Packer Rats urban legend. We had a thread going in which we trying to figure out what happened to Barbre that got him so buried in the lineup. The guy has been inactive for many games this season.


Thanks. I must have missed that thread.
I wonder if there's any hope for Barbre.

[texaspackerbacker]

I'd be happy with a power running scheme; I'd be happy with the ZBS, whichever works--and either could under the right circumstances.

The thing is, though, we AREN'T going to change. Why not? Well, for one thing, McCarthy apparently favors ZBS. The more significant reason, though, is that we have a whole stable of ZBS type linemen now.

The biggest factor in favor of the ZBS, IMO, is that that type of O-Lineman is a lot easier to find. People can talk all they want about those road graders, but finding one who isn't such a clod that he is a liability in pass protection, etc. is pretty hard to do. And with the trend increasingly to quicker DEs, you need OTs that can do more than just take up space to stop them.

Anyway, we do run a decent amount of variety--some power running, as has been said, a little bit of misdirection, etc. Every team has all of that in their playbook; It's just a question of how often you use whatever.

What I want for next season is to draft a small quick change of pace RB--like Felix Jones, Ahmad Bradshaw, Steve Slaton, Tushard Choice, etc. That will make any scheme better.

The other thing I want is to draft a Pat White-type "slash" player, and to have a capability for a little bit of spread or option on occasion.

[Noodle]

Tex, I really don't think the problem is at RB. The problem has been asking out OTs to do the type of cut blocks that are not within their skill set.

I don't care who you have totin' the rock, if he's running in to DL at the LOS, he is gonna be SOL.

[texaspackerbacker]

Clever use of acronyms, Noodle.

I agree with you, but conversely, if the line is doing its job, ZBS or otherwise, having some of the extra wrinkles I mentioned will make it even better.

[KYPack]

I'd be happy with a power running scheme; I'd be happy with the ZBS, whichever works--and either could under the right circumstances.

The thing is, though, we AREN'T going to change. Why not? Well, for one thing, McCarthy apparently favors ZBS. The more significant reason, though, is that we have a whole stable of ZBS type linemen now.

The biggest factor in favor of the ZBS, IMO, is that that type of O-Lineman is a lot easier to find. People can talk all they want about those road graders, but finding one who isn't such a clod that he is a liability in pass protection, etc. is pretty hard to do. And with the trend increasingly to quicker DEs, you need OTs that can do more than just take up space to stop them.

Anyway, we do run a decent amount of variety--some power running, as has been said, a little bit of misdirection, etc. Every team has all of that in their playbook; It's just a question of how often you use whatever.

What I want for next season is to draft a small quick change of pace RB--like Felix Jones, Ahmad Bradshaw, Steve Slaton, Tushard Choice, etc. That will make any scheme better.

The other thing I want is to draft a Pat White-type "slash" player, and to have a capability for a little bit of spread or option on occasion.

Well Tex, you and I have been disagreeing some lately, but we are on the same page on this one.

I think our ZBS would be more effective in a mix. We run the same stuff a lot and very rarely get to the counters. Those backside plays only work if the defense is over-playing the front side. Opponents can stop our play side stuff, so there are few openings for the counter plays.

Let's spice it up a little. Our OLine guys will now be in their 3rd or 4th season (with Sitton in his 2nd) Lets run some drive block/pull stuff that our guys can execute. Colledge ain't much of a drive blocker, but he's a brilliant down field, pull, & pass block guy (Now that he can pass block). Let's adapt our system and put in stuff they can do well.

I'd like to see that old "power O" series back. Pull the LG thru the 0 hole and lead the FB. That made Ahman Green a few million. Let's dust it off, modernize it, & run the shit out of it.

New personnel? Sure. We need a fast, tackle breaker. Our RB's are skilled, but they don't make their own holes. let's get some fresh blood and shake things up. I like Jackson, & Grant can do some things, but lets get the next Jones Drew or a Pat White and drive some defenses nuts.

MM has fallen into some ruts, he needs some fresh thinking and use that offensive brain of his. He called some real Schottenheimer games this season. (Marty, not Kurt)

[Freak Out]

Does anyone have a vid of the Moll hill getting his ass handed to him last night? At times it looked like he was playing across from Reggie White the way he was getting abused. Is he the best we have to throw out there at this point? He seemed better before.........

[Noodle]

No, I have no film, and frankly, I'd rather watch a current version of Ron Jeremy doing what he does than Moll not doing what he should.

Here's my concern about the OL. Most on this board understand that it takes a few years for an OL to get NFL strong and technique sound. So you can't fix what ails us in the draft. Rather, you need to get an FA, and that does not mean a Klem.

[Pugger]

Besides the fact that our O line has been like a revolving door this season (isn't it true that if you keep the same guys together they will play better as a unit?) I wonder if Campen might be an issue too? :?: