D-line performance, not TT's fault THIS year

[Patler]

I can't really blame TT for the D-line performance this year. However, if there is no improvement next year, or at least attempts to improve, I will dump it at his door.. Why do I not blame him this year? Easy.

- The D- line was very good in '07, had "too many players" in the eyes of many, and lost just one while adding a draft pick.

RE: KGB
- seemed to be rejuvenated in '07 by fewer snaps, had a very good year.
- just turned 31, not yet old.
- surgery was thought to be "cleaning up" some aggravations.
- no reason to expect him to fall of a cliff in his performance level, from very good to gone.

Re: Jenkins
- not unreasonable to expect better performance with a year experience at DE .
- had a number of minor injuries in '07 that healed.
- no reason to expect him to be lost for 12+ games.

Re: Pickett
- just turned 29
- many felt he was one of the better run playing DTs in the league
- no reason to expect a decline in performance

Re:Jolly
- young player had steadily improved
- not unreasonable to expect more improvement
- no reason at all to expect decline in performance
- certainly no reason to anticipate legal problems and resulting distraction

Re: Harrell
- I can't fault him for expecting a 1st round pick to produce even if we argue the pick itself
- if Harrell was a 1st round player, replacing Williams should have been smooth
- at times last season he did show flashes of the physical ability TT saw in him.
-a full off-season should have helped a lot
- in short, I can criticize TT for drafting Harrell, but given that he did, I can not fault TT for expecting performance from Harrell this season. That's why he drafted him where he did.

Re: Kampman
- could expect him to play like Kampman always has.

Re: Others
- re-signed Cole as a consistent sub.
- MOVED UP in the draft for an eventual replacement for KGB
- had a few younger players to work into the mix, including Montgomery, Hunter, Muir, Bolston and others.

To summarize, the line changed little from '07 to '08, and I can understand why TT thought it would be no worse than last year, and maybe even better with no change from Pickett, Kampman, KGB and Cole; and some marginal improvements (or more) from Jolly, Jenkins, Harrell and one or two younger guys.

Going into 2009 he has to re-evaluate much of that. Will Harrell ever produce? Will Pickett and Jolly be like 2007 or 2008? Can Thompson really replace KGB starting NOW? Should Cole be signed? Can Jenkins give a full-season performance? How many new players are needed? He has to find the answers or at least work toward finding them. If he stands pat, he has to be right in his evaluation that '08 was an aberration.

[Pugger]

I agree, there is no way TT can know how badly this unit would get hit by injuries and players underperforming compared to last season. But now TT must address this position AGAIN. :?

[KYPack]

I'd quibble with TT in one area. One of the cluster of 3 top picks should have been BDTA. Best defensive tackle available. I know position drafting is a losers game, but the 3 top guys are 66% projects. We could have used a good young DT to break in. Now, we are a year back. I'm not draft savvy to know who would have been that pick, but it would have been worth the old college try.

KGB falling off the cliff was a true blow.

I don't have that big a probelm letting Williams go for the pick, but wish that pick had been a DLineman.

[Patler]

KGB falling off the cliff was a true blow.


Especially coupled with losing Jenkins for the season.

[packers11]

I tend to agree, no one foresaw this mess at the D-line we have now...


Great break-down Patler on the D-Line... I love reading your analysis/posts...
8-)

[Gunakor]

Agreed 100%. TT's job starts in February. Now that he knows what needs to be fixed on this defense, he better get to work and fix it. I've become much in awe of his ability to turn a payroll teetering on the cap into a very healthy situation with plenty of excess (since I work in payroll and accounting myself, albeit in a much different field), but that makes no difference whatsoever if that money isn't used when needed to fill gaping holes on our roster.

Like I've been saying, THIS offseason is the one in which I will judge TT. He has his core players, but not a team. Now that he knows what works AND knows what doesn't work, he has a much clearer view of what needs to happen.

Make it happen TT.

[packerbacker1234]

You are right that it's not his fault KGB's minor surgery really seemed to affect him, the Cullen got hurt, or that Ryan Picket's play declined.

However, it is his fault for assuming a #1 draft pick who has done nothing in the little time he has been on the field, and has been hurt not just in a majority of his college career, but in a majority of his NFL career (2 seasons, hurt both years), to replace Corey Williams who was very solid and went on to start for another team. You NEVER assume a #1 draft pick, who was hurt befor the draft, then got hurt AFTER the draft, is going to be better then someone who has proven themselves.

That IS his fault. For drafting a player who had a major injury and didn't really play his final year in college, and assuming said player, after getting another injury that put him out most the season his rookie year, could replace a healthy, and solid playing, DT.

Think how much of a difference the line would have stopping hte run with just one more solid DT in the mix. Could be a world of difference.

Sorry, that part is TT's fault. The rest is not.

[packerbacker1234]

Agreed 100%. TT's job starts in February. Now that he knows what needs to be fixed on this defense, he better get to work and fix it. I've become much in awe of his ability to turn a payroll teetering on the cap into a very healthy situation with plenty of excess (since I work in payroll and accounting myself, albeit in a much different field), but that makes no difference whatsoever if that money isn't used when needed to fill gaping holes on our roster.

Like I've been saying, THIS offseason is the one in which I will judge TT. He has his core players, but not a team. Now that he knows what works AND knows what doesn't work, he has a much clearer view of what needs to happen.

Make it happen TT.

Well, Woodson's contract is up. So is tauchers. Most likely a few others too.

Plus, the current contract with the players union, and the nfl, are up after next season with caps, shared revenue, etc. Meaning? The packers can spend whatever they want, they just don't have the money to do so. Welcome to the world of baseball. We are in a small market, and can't afford elite players in 2 years.

I agree he is good at managing the cap, he is also not very good at spending the money. Once he dumped favre, you knew that money would go to AR at some point. That still left a lot of mone yon the table that could of kept Williams, and heck, JOHN RYAN should of at least been practice squaded, not just outright cut when he had no competition.

It is what it is: TT is a decent person to have in the draft room, the rest of his decisions leave a lot to be desired. Yeah, he brought in woodson, and now he is most likely going to let him go after he finally go to the probowl as a packer... more likely then not, because Woodson said himself he wants to play for a winner, and as it stands, the packers are not currently winners.

[Gunakor]

You are right that it's not his fault KGB's minor surgery really seemed to affect him, the Cullen got hurt, or that Ryan Picket's play declined.

However, it is his fault for assuming a #1 draft pick who has done nothing in the little time he has been on the field, and has been hurt not just in a majority of his college career, but in a majority of his NFL career (2 seasons, hurt both years), to replace Corey Williams who was very solid and went on to start for another team. You NEVER assume a #1 draft pick, who was hurt befor the draft, then got hurt AFTER the draft, is going to be better then someone who has proven themselves.

That IS his fault. For drafting a player who had a major injury and didn't really play his final year in college, and assuming said player, after getting another injury that put him out most the season his rookie year, could replace a healthy, and solid playing, DT.

Think how much of a difference the line would have stopping hte run with just one more solid DT in the mix. Could be a world of difference.

Sorry, that part is TT's fault. The rest is not.

And what if Harrell had overcome his injuries and played up to his potential? Or at the very least, played up to the level he was playing at late last season? Don't forget now, Harrell played effectively late in the season last year, so there was no reason NOT to believe he'd be any worse than solid this year. He was healthy when Corey Williams was traded.

[Gunakor]

P.S. Woodson has a couple more years left on his contract. From Wikipedia:


On April 26, 2006, Charles Woodson signed a seven-year, $52 million contract with the Green Bay Packers.

He's going to be a Packer for a few more years, barring retirement or trade.

[The Leaper]

I do blame TT...at least in terms of a pathetic pass rush.

This team had little pass rush down the stretch last season. Thompson traded the only DT on the team capable of generating a pass rush. Thompson acquired nobody at either DE or DT who could mount a pass rush.

Very similar to the OL...where Thompson sits on his hands far too often rather than proactively acquiring talent.

But, McCarthy and his corp of pathetic coaches should share the blame. The breakdowns occuring on a weekly basis are disturbing, to say the least.

[Gunakor]

I agree he is good at managing the cap, he is also not very good at spending the money. Once he dumped favre, you knew that money would go to AR at some point. That still left a lot of mone yon the table that could of kept Williams, and heck, JOHN RYAN should of at least been practice squaded, not just outright cut when he had no competition.

I broke Rodgers contract info down already. THIS season, he's making MORE MONEY than Brett Favre. 12.9 million to be exact. This was done so that next year the remainder of his guaranteed salary will be paid off, and by 2010 he'll be making just base salary. So the money we saved by trading Favre isn't available this year, or next year either to be perfectly honest. But in 2010, when Rodgers is playing for base salary only, he'll be making a mere 6 million. That's when we'll get to use the money we saved by trading Favre.

[Gunakor]

I do blame TT...at least in terms of a pathetic pass rush.

This team had little pass rush down the stretch last season. Thompson traded the only DT on the team capable of generating a pass rush. Thompson acquired nobody at either DE or DT who could mount a pass rush.

Very similar to the OL...where Thompson sits on his hands far too often rather than proactively acquiring talent.

But, McCarthy and his corp of pathetic coaches should share the blame. The breakdowns occuring on a weekly basis are disturbing, to say the least.

I'm sure he thought KGB could generate a pass rush. I mean, he did have 9.5 sacks just one season ago.

[The Leaper]

I'm sure he thought KGB could generate a pass rush. I mean, he did have 9.5 sacks just one season ago.

My point was that you couldn't count on him to be as good as 07...especially after the surgery. You had to think he would decline at least somewhat...so what did Thompson do to offset that?

[Gunakor]

I'm sure he thought KGB could generate a pass rush. I mean, he did have 9.5 sacks just one season ago.

My point was that you couldn't count on him to be as good as 07...especially after the surgery. You had to think he would decline at least somewhat...so what did Thompson do to offset that?

He also has Cullen Jenkins on the roster, who was healthy back in August.

You may have thought that he was about to decline, but others did not. The surgery was supposed to help his production. It was supposed to clean up what was wrong with his knee so he'd be a more productive football player. That's what my feeling was coming into the season. So I can't blame TT for doing nothing to offset that. Other guys have come back from knee surgery and performed brilliantly at his position, so why should we have expected KGB not to?

And even if I did feel the same way as you, I could not have predicted such a SHARP decline as we've witnessed from him this year. 9.5 to 0.5? Much more significant than I'm sure even you could have predicted.

Like I've been saying, I didn't expect him to address this one last season. He did more than I expected him to do by trading UP in the draft to get Jeremy Thompson. Obviously that wasn't enough, but that couldn't have been known back in April. Now that it's known, I do in fact expect him to address the problem. And if he doesn't, believe me I'll be blaming him for not doing so.

[Partial]

Do you fault him at all for banking on Cullen Jenkins? Jenkins has been an annual tease, flashing incredible skills, but somehow always getting hurt!!

Where do you draw the line? If he misses a good chunk of action next year do you cut the cord?

[Gunakor]

Do you fault him at all for banking on Cullen Jenkins? Jenkins has been an annual tease, flashing incredible skills, but somehow always getting hurt!!

Where do you draw the line? If he misses a good chunk of action next year do you cut the cord?

Maybe, but he was solid if not spectacular for us last year. His selling point though might be that he can play effectively both inside and outside, which gives him an advantage in the negotiations when it becomes time to renew his contract.

[Bretsky]

I don't agree with too much of this

TT should have known nobody was in line to add what Williams added to this squad. Could have prepared for the distinct chance that Justine would be hurt again and Jenkins....who has been oft injured lately...would get hurt again. KGB had knee surgery and is up there in years.

He waiting til a late 4th to do anything there.

He takes the fall on this one in my book.

On paper TT has not really brought anybody in to help this group besides Pickett. Hunter......junk......Montgomery......junk....Cole .....just a guy..the 4th round draft pick......undeveloped project. We have guys playing serious downs that may not make other teams. Cole is a last DL and nothing more; he's one of our better guys.

We're devoid of talent; I've turned into more of a TT apologist that I was a year ago but he takes the fall for the personnell on the defensive line.

[Gunakor]

I don't agree with too much of this

TT should have known nobody was in line to add what Williams added to this squad. Could have prepared for the distinct chance that Justine would be hurt again and Jenkins....who has been oft injured lately...would get hurt again. KGB had knee surgery and is up there in years.

He waiting til a late 4th to do anything there.

He takes the fall on this one in my book.

On paper TT has not really brought anybody in to help this group besides Pickett. Hunter......junk......Montgomery......junk....Cole .....just a guy..the 4th round draft pick......undeveloped project. We have guys playing serious downs that may not make other teams. Cole is a last DL and nothing more; he's one of our better guys.

We're devoid of talent; I've turned into more of a TT apologist that I was a year ago but he takes the fall for the personnell on the defensive line.

I think he was banking on a combination of KGB and Jenkins at DE, just like he did last season. Jenkins, especially, since he had a monster season in 2006 and a solid but not spectacular 2007. It worked for us last season, why shouldn't have worked this season? They aren't that old - KGB is the oldest and he's only 31. Looking at everything involved, I can't really see where the need was to upgrade at DE. Now using hindsight as my guide, there is an obvious need. Since TT now has that benefit as well, I'm sure he'll get something done. If not, trust me, I'll jump on him for it.

[Bretsky]

I don't agree with too much of this

TT should have known nobody was in line to add what Williams added to this squad. Could have prepared for the distinct chance that Justine would be hurt again and Jenkins....who has been oft injured lately...would get hurt again. KGB had knee surgery and is up there in years.

He waiting til a late 4th to do anything there.

He takes the fall on this one in my book.

On paper TT has not really brought anybody in to help this group besides Pickett. Hunter......junk......Montgomery......junk....Cole .....just a guy..the 4th round draft pick......undeveloped project. We have guys playing serious downs that may not make other teams. Cole is a last DL and nothing more; he's one of our better guys.

We're devoid of talent; I've turned into more of a TT apologist that I was a year ago but he takes the fall for the personnell on the defensive line.

I think he was banking on a combination of KGB and Jenkins at DE, just like he did last season. Jenkins, especially, since he had a monster season in 2006 and a solid but not spectacular 2007. It worked for us last season, why shouldn't have worked this season? They aren't that old - KGB is the oldest and he's only 31. Looking at everything involved, I can't really see where the need was to upgrade at DE. Now using hindsight as my guide, there is an obvious need. Since TT now has that benefit as well, I'm sure he'll get something done. If not, trust me, I'll jump on him for it.

Too many question marks coming off injury.

And I don't see Justine offering the upfield penetration that CW offers; he seems more like a plugger although he hasn't played enought for us to know much of anything about him.

With all of the factors we needed at least one more legit player

Montgomery, Hunter, Cole.....those are guys that should be your last player on the DL.

That falls back to TT

[Partial]

Do you fault him at all for banking on Cullen Jenkins? Jenkins has been an annual tease, flashing incredible skills, but somehow always getting hurt!!

Where do you draw the line? If he misses a good chunk of action next year do you cut the cord?

Maybe, but he was solid if not spectacular for us last year. His selling point though might be that he can play effectively both inside and outside, which gives him an advantage in the negotiations when it becomes time to renew his contract.

No he wasn't. He was hurt and ineffective for the most part. He was FAR more dominant at DE in the end of 06 than he was in '07. Coaches have said he had nagging injuries and was just struggling to get by.

He was solid I'll give you, but nowhere near spectacular. We was 3rd behind Kampman and Pickett last year imo.

[packerbacker1234]

You are right that it's not his fault KGB's minor surgery really seemed to affect him, the Cullen got hurt, or that Ryan Picket's play declined.

However, it is his fault for assuming a #1 draft pick who has done nothing in the little time he has been on the field, and has been hurt not just in a majority of his college career, but in a majority of his NFL career (2 seasons, hurt both years), to replace Corey Williams who was very solid and went on to start for another team. You NEVER assume a #1 draft pick, who was hurt befor the draft, then got hurt AFTER the draft, is going to be better then someone who has proven themselves.

That IS his fault. For drafting a player who had a major injury and didn't really play his final year in college, and assuming said player, after getting another injury that put him out most the season his rookie year, could replace a healthy, and solid playing, DT.

Think how much of a difference the line would have stopping hte run with just one more solid DT in the mix. Could be a world of difference.

Sorry, that part is TT's fault. The rest is not.

And what if Harrell had overcome his injuries and played up to his potential? Or at the very least, played up to the level he was playing at late last season? Don't forget now, Harrell played effectively late in the season last year, so there was no reason NOT to believe he'd be any worse than solid this year. He was healthy when Corey Williams was traded.


No, he wasn't. He was getting surgery and was suppose to be on pace to return around training camp. Then he got hurt again, and they put him on the PUP list.

And, at the end of last season, Harrel didn't do much. Just because you actually saw his number on the field doesn't mean he played well. I was not impressed, and I was severely upset to see his number called before williams in the playoffs, when williams was outperforming him.

You simply do not let a solid DL go until said first round does something. Still waiting. It's getting to the point where Harrell is a Bust. They did it with KGB, could of easily did it with Williams. Keep him till TC, then let him go if you wish. Harrell didn't make ti to TC, and thus, Williams would of still been around.

Just saying, Harrell didn't do anything last season any better then Williams, and williams is pretty young himself.

[Partial]

Hindsight is good and nice on the Corey Williams deal, but at the time it seemed like we were getting a steal since he was leaving either way. I would do the deal again in retrospect, but I might not draft a receiver :lol:

[The Leaper]

Hindsight is good and nice on the Corey Williams deal, but at the time it seemed like we were getting a steal since he was leaving either way. I would do the deal again in retrospect, but I might not draft a receiver :lol:

Yeah...I like Jordy, but he's a luxury we really don't need at the moment. We need some players up front on either side of the ball. Brohm isn't exactly reaping rewards for us either.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Actually, with Jones being injured so much, we ended up needing Jordy. I'm happy with the Jordy pick. Jennings + Nelson + Jones = solid threesome for Rodgers to throw to for the next few years.

[Partial]

Actually, with Jones being injured so much, we ended up needing Jordy. I'm happy with the Jordy pick. Jennings + Nelson + Jones = solid threesome for Rodgers to throw to for the next few years.

Yeah. I think the offense is pretty much set beyond the OL, and even that is not awful.

They need to get a dominating DL, though.

[bobblehead]

Well, Woodson's contract is up. So is tauchers. Most likely a few others too.

Plus, the current contract with the players union, and the nfl, are up after next season with caps, shared revenue, etc. Meaning? The packers can spend whatever they want, they just don't have the money to do so. Welcome to the world of baseball. We are in a small market, and can't afford elite players in 2 years.

I agree he is good at managing the cap, he is also not very good at spending the money. Once he dumped favre, you knew that money would go to AR at some point. That still left a lot of mone yon the table that could of kept Williams, and heck, JOHN RYAN should of at least been practice squaded, not just outright cut when he had no competition.

It is what it is: TT is a decent person to have in the draft room, the rest of his decisions leave a lot to be desired. Yeah, he brought in woodson, and now he is most likely going to let him go after he finally go to the probowl as a packer... more likely then not, because Woodson said himself he wants to play for a winner, and as it stands, the packers are not currently winners.

Lotta errors in one post. First Woodson isn't up for several years.

Second we couldn't practice squad Ryan, I'm not sure you can practice squad a guy with a full NFL season under him but either way he was signed by a team to the 53 man roster and we don't keep his rights on the practice squad. No need to practice squad him at the end of camp when guys who we want to learn our systems are kept there.

Third, we can afford elite players, the packers are actually a high revenue team and the NFL shares TV contracts, not negotiates each team out like baseball.

Fourth, I don't think Woodson has ever said anything to make anyone believe he wants out of green bay...source please.

Fifth, what decisions leave a lot to be desired?? Being right in the hunt for moss, gonzalez, arrington and vinitiari? I guess he would have to land EVERY person he talks to for some people to be happy. The decision to go with ARod?? Only in some peoples eyes. He went with the future now instead of letting a guy in his last year, no one more, wait last year, actually can I just have my starting gig back, dictate the terms of the team.

This post reminded me of "an inconveniant truth" that strangely lacked a lot of truth.

[Bretsky]

Hindsight is good and nice on the Corey Williams deal, but at the time it seemed like we were getting a steal since he was leaving either way. I would do the deal again in retrospect, but I might not draft a receiver :lol:

Yeah...I like Jordy, but he's a luxury we really don't need at the moment. We need some players up front on either side of the ball. Brohm isn't exactly reaping rewards for us either.


Not to make you guys feel even worse, but we drafted Brian Brohm with the pick we received for Corey Williams

[Patler]

You are right that it's not his fault KGB's minor surgery really seemed to affect him, the Cullen got hurt, or that Ryan Picket's play declined.

However, it is his fault for assuming a #1 draft pick who has done nothing in the little time he has been on the field, and has been hurt not just in a majority of his college career, but in a majority of his NFL career (2 seasons, hurt both years), to replace Corey Williams who was very solid and went on to start for another team. You NEVER assume a #1 draft pick, who was hurt befor the draft, then got hurt AFTER the draft, is going to be better then someone who has proven themselves.

That IS his fault. For drafting a player who had a major injury and didn't really play his final year in college, and assuming said player, after getting another injury that put him out most the season his rookie year, could replace a healthy, and solid playing, DT.

Think how much of a difference the line would have stopping hte run with just one more solid DT in the mix. Could be a world of difference.

Sorry, that part is TT's fault. The rest is not.

You obviously missed my point on that. I agree, you can argue that selecting Harrell in 2007 was wrong, but given that TT thought him worthy of being a 16th pick, I can not then blame him for relying on Harrell to produce this year when he ended 2007 healthy and active. To draft someone at #16, then expect him to do nothing in his second year is doubly foolish. Once you pick him you have to trust your evaluation and judgment until you are proven wrong. 2009 is a whole different story. Another lost seasn AND ending the year injured.

[Patler]

Jenkins has been dinged up some in his career, but never missed significant time until this season. I do think now you have to question his reliability.

As for KGB, he is not that old. His surgery was thought to be minor. The problem didn't even crop up until later in the off season, From a June 18 article:


"I have no doubt that I should be ready for training camp," Gbaja-Biamila said. "If this was the season, I'd probably be out there trying to get back on the field. I'd be on the field actually doing some stuff. But we're not in any rush. We've got time on our side."
...

Gbaja-Biamila began the offseason doing exercises to strengthen an ankle that bothered him last season, but that made his knee flare up. After examining his knee, Gbaja-Biamila said team doctors told him he had a torn meniscus, and there would be no guarantee the injury wouldn't keep flaring up unless he had surgery.

Gbaja-Biamila doesn't believe there was one single incident that caused the injury, chalking it up to wear and tear. He had the surgery and now is rehabbing, doing low-impact exercises such as climbing on a StairMaster and running in a swimming pool.

"I've just been using this opportunity to get rested, trying to look at the more positive side of it," Gbaja-Biamila said. "I've been in the league eight years, going into my ninth season, so maybe I'm not out there getting my body as beat up. I wish I didn't have to get (surgery) to get the rest and everything."

Once doctors clear Gbaja-Biamila to return, he doesn't expect to sit out selected practices to rest - something Packers coach Mike McCarthy has done with several veterans who are nursing chronic injuries.

What in that scenario would make you think he would fall from 9.5 sacks and leading the team in hurries in 2007, to not being able to get near the QB in 2008?

[Patler]

Not to make you guys feel even worse, but we drafted Brian Brohm with the pick we received for Corey Williams

So you have already concluded Brohm will never have success in the NFL?
Good gosh, some of you seem to think it is a failure unless he picks a player who is an instant starter and borderline all pro in his first season.

[Bretsky]

Not to make you guys feel even worse, but we drafted Brian Brohm with the pick we received for Corey Williams

So you have already concluded Brohm will never have success in the NFL?
Good gosh, some of you seem to think it is a failure unless he picks a player who is an instant starter and borderline all pro in his first season.


I did not say he'd be a failure; he has time. But it appeared they were comparing the loss of Williams to the addition of Jordy Nelson when in reality we selected Brohm.........who looks less promising at this point.

[RashanGary]

I'll agree with Patler that it's not his fault per se, but more than any problem in the past, TT had control over this. Most of the blame that gets tossed his way were problems that developed under the previous GM. This problem developed under him.

There is a good, solid base. The problems are not as deep as they have been in the past. He has a chance to fix this thing and make it right. He's done a whole bunch of good things for this team. IMO he's not completely off the hook though. This is a red flag and he has to get it fixed. I don't give him the same leeway I gave with the OL.

[Partial]

I think with some DL help, and A-Rod taking another step forward (becoming top 8-10 QB), we'll be playoff bound certainly.

We need to start establishing a physical presence in the running game before A-Rod will reach his true potential.

[Patler]

I'll agree with Patler that it's not his fault per se, but more than any problem in the past, TT had control over this. Most of the blame that gets tossed his way were problems that developed under the previous GM. This problem developed under him.

There is a good, solid base. The problems are not as deep as they have been in the past. He has a chance to fix this thing and make it right. He's done a whole bunch of good things for this team. IMO he's not completely off the hook though. This is a red flag and he has to get it fixed. I don't give him the same leeway I gave with the OL.

I agree with that. The problem is his, not anyone else, but I guess my point was that I can understand his thinking in the off season that they would be OK on the D-line. I can understand why he was not more active than he was in making changes at the position.

I am interested to see his approach this off season. A few years back it was obvious that CB was a real problem, and he went out and spent a lot of money on Woodson. Assuming there is someone with talent available, will he do the same for the D-line this off season?

I see three scenarios -
1. He goes out and makes a number of changes in whatever way, draft, trade, signings. The new guys may or may not work out in 2009, but at least it will be obvious that he is trying to rebuild the D-line.

2. He concludes that the ability is there, 2008 was a fluke, so he changes little. This would be a defining decision for his longevity. If he is right, they play well in 2009. If he is wrong and there are more injuries to the same people, and under performance again by others, he will not be up to snuff as a GM for Green Bay.

3. He recognizes the problem but does not see suitable free agents or draft picks available this off season, or just can't convince target FAs to come to GB. This will be hard for us to determine or evaluate next year, and for fans it will be hard to distinguish from #2. Internally it will be known, however, and he will be held accountable for being more right than wrong.

[Packnut]

Patler- your defense of Teddy while a noble attempt is nothing more than BS and it all falls apart going back to one particular game. You claim Teddy could'nt have known about the d-lines weakness yet what the hell was the NFC championship game?

That game was a PROVEN fact that we could not stop the run and we could not apply pressure. It is the reason we did not advance to the SB. So Teddy had the proof right in front of his nose and what happened? NOTHING! That is the part that cannot be refuted, lied about or just looked over.

Are you gonna tell me no one in that organization thought that Mr Harrell might spend the off-season eating himself into a frenzy? Since it was already known he had a poor work ethic it was the man in charge who is responsible for seeing potential problems and Teddy did nothing. I won't argue what a horrible pick it was since the facts are all in and arguing it would be a waste of space on your part.

I also will not debate the merits of trading Mr Williams. I will however say that he was an important part of the rotation and as per usual in the Thompson era, he makes a move without having a back-up plan in place.

We all know Cullen Jenkins has a difficult time staying healthy and he does not have the ability to play well when hurt. Counting on him playing a full season healthy was nothing more than wishful thinking and a GM does not have that luxury.

KGB is a speed rusher. It's the only thing he does. Any competent GM would know that as speed rushers age, they lose quickness and since they have no other talent to counter that loss, is'nt it foolish to depend on them? Should'nt there have been a "what if" scenario in place?

Now Mr Jolly. Why would any competent GM go into a season counting on a guy that more than likely is gonna do some time? Would'nt you kind off expect his play to drop off considering the thought of jail time in Texas just might be a very unpleasent thought?

No, you can make up all the excuses you want (and that is exactly what you have done) in order to cover up for our brain-dead GM. Funny how last season, all the Thompson backers wanted the credit going to Teddy yet now as the free-fall continues, those same people have all kinds of excuses for him. I would warrant that as a tad hypocritical. It's a results orientated business and Teddy has failed big-time- a FACT that more and more fans and writers are seeing.

[Spaulding]

The question I have though is that even given the injuries and decline of the DL play, how much is that due to player talent/experience versus coaching?

Baltimore continues to turn out great defense after great defense and yet none of their DL's have been starters or alternates to the pro-bowl. Their linebacking corp has been excellent with Lewis and Suggs and McAlister at CB is a stud but does that equate to continued dominance? Sam goes for the Patriots, they lose player after player (Samuel last year) where their only pro-bowler is Seymour but are always solid on defense.

I am still of the belief that given Harris and Woodson and the bump coverage that we play, it still leaves room for stunts and an occasional blitz (ala Jim Johnson of the Eagles) to mask our normal lack of pass rush.

For arguments sake, given our current roster and a different a defensive coordinator say like Jim Johnson, do you believe that the defense would play better or worse?

TT is certainly at fault to some extent but in my eyes nowhere near what the coaching staff is for failure to execute and play to the strengths of the remaining healthy players on the roster.

Coaches make average players good and good players great and empower them into being in position to make plays.

This year the coaching staff has failed at that.

[prsnfoto]

I don't agree with too much of this

TT should have known nobody was in line to add what Williams added to this squad. Could have prepared for the distinct chance that Justine would be hurt again and Jenkins....who has been oft injured lately...would get hurt again. KGB had knee surgery and is up there in years.

He waiting til a late 4th to do anything there.

He takes the fall on this one in my book.

On paper TT has not really brought anybody in to help this group besides Pickett. Hunter......junk......Montgomery......junk....Cole .....just a guy..the 4th round draft pick......undeveloped project. We have guys playing serious downs that may not make other teams. Cole is a last DL and nothing more; he's one of our better guys.

We're devoid of talent; I've turned into more of a TT apologist that I was a year ago but he takes the fall for the personnell on the defensive line.

I think he was banking on a combination of KGB and Jenkins at DE, just like he did last season. Jenkins, especially, since he had a monster season in 2006 and a solid but not spectacular 2007. It worked for us last season, why shouldn't have worked this season? They aren't that old - KGB is the oldest and he's only 31. Looking at everything involved, I can't really see where the need was to upgrade at DE. Now using hindsight as my guide, there is an obvious need. Since TT now has that benefit as well, I'm sure he'll get something done. If not, trust me, I'll jump on him for it.

Then he is a big idiot to all you KGB lovers out there he has always been shit against the run and if you go back and look at his sacks I believe you will find he got them in bunches against terrible teams and then diappears for several games as a non factor. He was never like Kampman and made a ton of money for a guy who averaged 8-9 sacks a year against 4-5 teams a year he was a bum, not Cledius Hunt bum but a bum none the less. Jenkins has never proved he can stay healthy and Harrell, well he ought to know what a bad drafter he was on that one our GM sucks, lucky for him he is also the pied piper and has plenty of blind sheep to follow, have faith to the rest of us it only took 8 years to get rid of the last pied piper who so many blindly believed .

[Gunakor]

You are right that it's not his fault KGB's minor surgery really seemed to affect him, the Cullen got hurt, or that Ryan Picket's play declined.

However, it is his fault for assuming a #1 draft pick who has done nothing in the little time he has been on the field, and has been hurt not just in a majority of his college career, but in a majority of his NFL career (2 seasons, hurt both years), to replace Corey Williams who was very solid and went on to start for another team. You NEVER assume a #1 draft pick, who was hurt befor the draft, then got hurt AFTER the draft, is going to be better then someone who has proven themselves.

That IS his fault. For drafting a player who had a major injury and didn't really play his final year in college, and assuming said player, after getting another injury that put him out most the season his rookie year, could replace a healthy, and solid playing, DT.

Think how much of a difference the line would have stopping hte run with just one more solid DT in the mix. Could be a world of difference.

Sorry, that part is TT's fault. The rest is not.

And what if Harrell had overcome his injuries and played up to his potential? Or at the very least, played up to the level he was playing at late last season? Don't forget now, Harrell played effectively late in the season last year, so there was no reason NOT to believe he'd be any worse than solid this year. He was healthy when Corey Williams was traded.


No, he wasn't. He was getting surgery and was suppose to be on pace to return around training camp. Then he got hurt again, and they put him on the PUP list.

And, at the end of last season, Harrel didn't do much. Just because you actually saw his number on the field doesn't mean he played well. I was not impressed, and I was severely upset to see his number called before williams in the playoffs, when williams was outperforming him.

You simply do not let a solid DL go until said first round does something. Still waiting. It's getting to the point where Harrell is a Bust. They did it with KGB, could of easily did it with Williams. Keep him till TC, then let him go if you wish. Harrell didn't make ti to TC, and thus, Williams would of still been around.

Just saying, Harrell didn't do anything last season any better then Williams, and williams is pretty young himself.

Williams was traded in March or early April. I thought Harrell's deal was that he got injured later during the offseason, while trying to get back into shape for this year. If that's true, yeah, he was healthy the day the trade was made.

Williams is not a solid DL. He is a solid backup DL, but not a good starter. When he was playing #3 DT at the beginning of last year he had monster numbers, but when he was named a starter midway through the season he struggled. Like I said, I don't think he had a single sack the last month of the regular season or the playoffs. He really wasn't out performing Harrell when the playoffs came around.

They kept KGB instead of Williams for 2 reasons. First of all, KGB had a better season last year, and one would assume that even if he had declined this year he'd still outperform Williams anyway. Secondly, there was no way TT would have gotten a 2nd round draft pick for KGB. There was more value in trading Williams than there was with KGB. That I think is the most key part of this decision, was the value we could get in return being greatest in trading Williams.

Sure, hindsight tells us that we'd MAYBE have gotten more value by keeping him - can't be too sure because he's really stunk up the joint in Cleveland this year, certainly hasn't proven himself worth the 2nd round pick we got for him - but go back to when the trade was made and tell me you weren't pleased with the trade. Like I said earlier in this thread or another one, I can't think of a single person that wasn't thrilled with getting a 2nd round pick for Williams last spring.

[Gunakor]

Hindsight is good and nice on the Corey Williams deal, but at the time it seemed like we were getting a steal since he was leaving either way. I would do the deal again in retrospect, but I might not draft a receiver :lol:

Yeah...I like Jordy, but he's a luxury we really don't need at the moment. We need some players up front on either side of the ball. Brohm isn't exactly reaping rewards for us either.


Not to make you guys feel even worse, but we drafted Brian Brohm with the pick we received for Corey Williams

Yeah, we did. And who wasn't pleased about that when Brohm was drafted? I can think of quite a few people on here that were saying he'd eventually unseat Rodgers as our starting QB of the future.

He didn't look any worse during this preseason than Rodgers looked in his first preseason. There's no reason he can't be coached up to be just as good in 3 years as Rodgers is this year. There's no reason to believe he won't become a solid backup for the short term here for us, or a solid starter beyond that for us or another team.

[Patler]

Patler- your defense of Teddy while a noble attempt is nothing more than BS and it all falls apart going back to one particular game. You claim Teddy could'nt have known about the d-lines weakness yet what the hell was the NFC championship game?

That game was a PROVEN fact that we could not stop the run and we could not apply pressure. It is the reason we did not advance to the SB. So Teddy had the proof right in front of his nose and what happened? NOTHING! That is the part that cannot be refuted, lied about or just looked over.

Are you gonna tell me no one in that organization thought that Mr Harrell might spend the off-season eating himself into a frenzy? Since it was already known he had a poor work ethic it was the man in charge who is responsible for seeing potential problems and Teddy did nothing. I won't argue what a horrible pick it was since the facts are all in and arguing it would be a waste of space on your part.

I also will not debate the merits of trading Mr Williams. I will however say that he was an important part of the rotation and as per usual in the Thompson era, he makes a move without having a back-up plan in place.

We all know Cullen Jenkins has a difficult time staying healthy and he does not have the ability to play well when hurt. Counting on him playing a full season healthy was nothing more than wishful thinking and a GM does not have that luxury.

KGB is a speed rusher. It's the only thing he does. Any competent GM would know that as speed rushers age, they lose quickness and since they have no other talent to counter that loss, is'nt it foolish to depend on them? Should'nt there have been a "what if" scenario in place?

Now Mr Jolly. Why would any competent GM go into a season counting on a guy that more than likely is gonna do some time? Would'nt you kind off expect his play to drop off considering the thought of jail time in Texas just might be a very unpleasent thought?

No, you can make up all the excuses you want (and that is exactly what you have done) in order to cover up for our brain-dead GM. Funny how last season, all the Thompson backers wanted the credit going to Teddy yet now as the free-fall continues, those same people have all kinds of excuses for him. I would warrant that as a tad hypocritical. It's a results orientated business and Teddy has failed big-time- a FACT that more and more fans and writers are seeing.

Your argument is based on a lot of inaccuracies and hindsight.

The Packers allowed the Giants 130 yards rushing on 37 carries, 3.5/carry to two guys that collectively averaged 5.3/carry during the regular season. Ya, that was a huge indicator to TT of run defense problems wasn't it? The bigger problems in that game were that Plaxico Burress had more yards receiving than the entire rushing output of the Giants, Harris couldn't stop him; and the Packers offense gained less than 100 yards and ran just 22 plays in 5 possessions in the second half.

Corey Williams was traded February 29. The D-line was healthy then, Harrell was home eating and uninjured, KGB was working out to strengthen his ankle, with no concerns about his knee yet. Jenkins was healing or healed. No one was scheduled for surgeries, repair or anything significant at that time.

Jolly was arrested in mid-July, just a couple weeks before training camp started. Not much TT could do then but hope for the best with Jolly. Who was available at that time? Cletidus Hunt perhaps. TT was totally blindsided by that situation

Jenkins has been nicked up a lot, but in the previous four years he played in 62 of a possibly 64 games. He missed two games in four years. Big flag there, too, huh?

Now for Harrell. Since when is Harrell lazy? Injury-prone perhaps, weight issues perhaps, a little naive perhaps, but nothing indicates he is truly lazy. After his surgery he lost all the weight they wanted him to and even more doing only very light intensity workouts because of his back, but by spending much more time at it then the staff expected him to. That doesn't sound lazy to me. They should have known he "might spend the off season eating himself into a frenzy"? Why? Based on what? and for the "off season"? He was gone 6 or 7 weeks and was back in GB by March 16 for VOLUNTARY workouts. That doesn't sound lazy to me, or even much of an eating frenzy. Lazy would apply to the players in the past who skipped voluntary stuff completely and then reported to camp out of shape. Harrell was in GB in mid-March to get in shape for August.

How much weight did he really gain? One article said 10 lbs. For a 325 pounder that is not much, and is something a lot of the really big guys struggle with, especially when they are young and naive. Had he not gotten hurt, we likely would not have even heard about it, and I don't believe the few extra pounds cause the injury.

I will not argue that Harrell was a good pick. He may not have been. My point on that is simple. When you make a decision like drafting Harrell, it is plain ignorant not to give it an opportunity to be successful. To draft him that high, but not give him the chance to prove he is worth it guarantees failure. Besides, Harrell actually had some decent flashes at the end of 2007 when you consider that he had no off-season work and was restricted in TC, then lost practice time during the season. There was reason to hope that with a full off season of work and a training camp that he could start to show his value.

To evaluate culpability for the D-line decline you have to consider the time line. What happened when and what could have been done about it at that time. I maintain there was not a lot TT could have been expected to do for the D-line going in to 2008. Now it is a completely different story. They will end the season and go into the off-season with very apparent issues that need to be addressed.

[Gunakor]

Wow. Just... Wow.

Well done Patler. Very nicely broken down, and explained in a way that even the harshest critics should at least take a step back and think about it. Very well done indeed.

[cpk1994]

Your argument is based on a lot of inaccuracies and hindsight.

The Packers allowed the Giants 130 yards rushing on 37 carries, 3.5/carry to two guys that collectively averaged 5.3/carry during the regular season. Ya, that was a huge indicator to TT of run defense problems wasn't it? The bigger problems in that game were that Plaxico Burress had more yards receiving than the entire rushing output of the Giants, Harris couldn't stop him; and the Packers offense gained less than 100 yards and ran just 22 plays in 5 possessions in the second half.

Corey Williams was traded February 29. The D-line was healthy then, Harrell was home eating and uninjured, KGB was working out to strengthen his ankle, with no concerns about his knee yet. Jenkins was healing or healed. No one was scheduled for surgeries, repair or anything significant at that time.

Jolly was arrested in mid-July, just a couple weeks before training camp started. Not much TT could do then but hope for the best with Jolly. Who was available at that time? Cletidus Hunt perhaps. TT was totally blindsided by that situation

Jenkins has been nicked up a lot, but in the previous four years he played in 62 of a possibly 64 games. He missed two games in four years. Big flag there, too, huh?

Now for Harrell. Since when is Harrell lazy? Injury-prone perhaps, weight issues perhaps, a little naive perhaps, but nothing indicates he is truly lazy. After his surgery he lost all the weight they wanted him to and even more doing only very light intensity workouts because of his back, but by spending much more time at it then the staff expected him to. That doesn't sound lazy to me. They should have known he "might spend the off season eating himself into a frenzy"? Why? Based on what? and for the "off season"? He was gone 6 or 7 weeks and was back in GB by March 16 for VOLUNTARY workouts. That doesn't sound lazy to me, or even much of an eating frenzy. Lazy would apply to the players in the past who skipped voluntary stuff completely and then reported to camp out of shape. Harrell was in GB in mid-March to get in shape for August.

How much weight did he really gain? One article said 10 lbs. For a 325 pounder that is not much, and is something a lot of the really big guys struggle with, especially when they are young and naive. Had he not gotten hurt, we likely would not have even heard about it, and I don't believe the few extra pounds cause the injury.

I will not argue that Harrell was a good pick. He may not have been. My point on that is simple. When you make a decision like drafting Harrell, it is plain ignorant not to give it an opportunity to be successful. To draft him that high, but not give him the chance to prove he is worth it guarantees failure. Besides, Harrell actually had some decent flashes at the end of 2007 when you consider that he had no off-season work and was restricted in TC, then lost practice time during the season. There was reason to hope that with a full off season of work and a training camp that he could start to show his value.

To evaluate culpability for the D-line decline you have to consider the time line. What happened when and what could have been done about it at that time. I maintain there was not a lot TT could have been expected to do for the D-line going in to 2008. Now it is a completely different story. They will end the season and go into the off-season with very apparent issues that need to be addressed.Wow. Palterizing one person at a time not challenging enough so now you are doing it to the whole forum at once? :lol:

[sharpe1027]

To summarize, the line changed little from '07 to '08, and I can understand why TT thought it would be no worse than last year, and maybe even better with no change from Pickett, Kampman, KGB and Cole; and some marginal improvements (or more) from Jolly, Jenkins, Harrell and one or two younger guys.

Going into 2009 he has to re-evaluate much of that. Will Harrell ever produce? Will Pickett and Jolly be like 2007 or 2008? Can Thompson really replace KGB starting NOW? Should Cole be signed? Can Jenkins give a full-season performance? How many new players are needed? He has to find the answers or at least work toward finding them. If he stands pat, he has to be right in his evaluation that '08 was an aberration.

I can understand that as well. However, to turn this analysis of its head, you could look at each those points are miscalculations that together add up the current problems. Every GM had a rationale for why they did what they did. I bet you could come back with a similar argument for the current state of the Lions... :P

I understand why TT did what he did, and I agreed at the time (something most TT critics won't admit), but looking back there is a decent argument that he made a series of miscalculations. So, you could either subscribe to the theory that his evaluations and decisions are fine and it was just a perfect storm of unfortunate events, or he that made a series of mistakes.

The truth probably lies somewhere in between.

[Patler]

To summarize, the line changed little from '07 to '08, and I can understand why TT thought it would be no worse than last year, and maybe even better with no change from Pickett, Kampman, KGB and Cole; and some marginal improvements (or more) from Jolly, Jenkins, Harrell and one or two younger guys.

Going into 2009 he has to re-evaluate much of that. Will Harrell ever produce? Will Pickett and Jolly be like 2007 or 2008? Can Thompson really replace KGB starting NOW? Should Cole be signed? Can Jenkins give a full-season performance? How many new players are needed? He has to find the answers or at least work toward finding them. If he stands pat, he has to be right in his evaluation that '08 was an aberration.

I can understand that as well. However, to turn this analysis of its head, you could look at each those points are miscalculations that together add up the current problems. Every GM had a rationale for why they did what they did. I bet you could come back with a similar argument for the current state of the Lions... :P

I understand why TT did what he did, and I agreed at the time (something most TT critics won't admit), but looking back there is a decent argument that he made a series of miscalculations. So, you could either subscribe to the theory that his evaluations and decisions are fine and it was just a perfect storm of unfortunate events, or he that made a series of mistakes.

The truth probably lies somewhere in between.

I do agree with that, but I would argue all of his miscalculations have centered around Harrell. KGB pulling a disappearing act during an off season (after all, he had a sack against the Giants, didn't he?), Jolly's problem so close to camp, Jenkins being lost for most of the season, Pickett having an off year were hardly things to be expected. I see no miscalculation relating to those. The miscalculation with Harrell was made in 2007. Once that was done, he did not make another mistake in 2008, but he suffered from the one in 2007.

I wasn't excited about the trade of Williams, but at the time it was made I don't think it was a miscalculation. I argued in here that Williams had more sacks in 2006-07 than any other DT in the NFL, not because he was a great pass rusher, but because the totality of the D-line, with Kampman, Jenkins, KGB, and Williams in pass rush situations, and Pickett and Cole for standard downs and distances was somehow better than the sum of its parts. It just worked. None are great pass rushers, but Kampman, KGB, Jenkins and Williams were all good ones, and consistent enough that two or more would generate pressure resulting in a sack as the QB moved from one into the grasp of another. They ended up losing 3/4 of their preferred pass rush line.

Had Harrell not been healthy in February, or if Jolly had already been arrested, TT may not have traded Williams. But in Feb., they seemed to have an extra DT. As it was, many questioned why he had kept so many D-linemen in 2007, and many argued that he should trade one then. Some thought he kept them all to trade one before the deadline. Then in the off season he he traded just one, and people question why he didn't bring in a whole bunch more. He gave up one player from a group seemingly having an excess, and it snowballed into a deficit. I just don't see a lot of mistakes surrounding the D-line in the 2008 off season. Just a lot of bad luck and unexpected happenings with the D-line.

2009 is a whole different situation.

[sharpe1027]

I do agree with that, but I would argue all of his miscalculations have centered around Harrell. KGB pulling a disappearing act during an off season (after all, he had a sack against the Giants, didn't he?), Jolly's problem so close to camp, Jenkins being lost for most of the season, Pickett having an off year were hardly things to be expected. I see no miscalculation relating to those. The miscalculation with Harrell was made in 2007. Once that was done, he did not make another mistake in 2008, but he suffered from the one in 2007.


I think you have a good basis for your opinion, but to play devil's advocate, I would say that:

KGB's disappearing act did not come out of left field. He was OK last year, but looking back I think a good argument could be made that he had lost half a step even then.

Jolly's legal problems are a too convenient of an excuse, is it fair to blame them for his play? Early in the year he looked better and that is when the legal problems were probably more of a distraction.

Pickett is currently playing at about the level he was before he came to Green Bay. Is it more reasonable to assume that last year was an indicator what to expect or his prior years? It is at least arguable.

As for Jenkins being injured, TT should have expected at least one injury.

I just don't think it is as clear-cut of an issue as your posts suggest.

[RashanGary]

I think you have a good basis for your opinion, but to play devil's advocate, I would say that:

KGB's disappearing act did not come out of left field. He was OK last year, but looking back I think a good argument could be made that he had lost half a step even then.

Jolly's legal problems are a too convenient of an excuse, is it fair to blame them for his play? Early in the year he looked better and that is when the legal problems were probably more of a distraction.

Pickett is currently playing at about the level he was before he came to Green Bay. Is it more reasonable to assume that last year was an indicator what to expect or his prior years? It is at least arguable.

As for Jenkins being injured, TT should have expected at least one injury.

I just don't think it is as clear-cut of an issue as your posts suggest.

Good post. I blame TT for this one and wouldn't give him more than two years to fix it.

[gex]

Patler- your defense of Teddy while a noble attempt is nothing more than BS and it all falls apart going back to one particular game. You claim Teddy could'nt have known about the d-lines weakness yet what the hell was the NFC championship game?

That game was a PROVEN fact that we could not stop the run and we could not apply pressure. It is the reason we did not advance to the SB. So Teddy had the proof right in front of his nose and what happened? NOTHING! That is the part that cannot be refuted, lied about or just looked over.

Are you gonna tell me no one in that organization thought that Mr Harrell might spend the off-season eating himself into a frenzy? Since it was already known he had a poor work ethic it was the man in charge who is responsible for seeing potential problems and Teddy did nothing. I won't argue what a horrible pick it was since the facts are all in and arguing it would be a waste of space on your part.

I also will not debate the merits of trading Mr Williams. I will however say that he was an important part of the rotation and as per usual in the Thompson era, he makes a move without having a back-up plan in place.

We all know Cullen Jenkins has a difficult time staying healthy and he does not have the ability to play well when hurt. Counting on him playing a full season healthy was nothing more than wishful thinking and a GM does not have that luxury.

KGB is a speed rusher. It's the only thing he does. Any competent GM would know that as speed rushers age, they lose quickness and since they have no other talent to counter that loss, is'nt it foolish to depend on them? Should'nt there have been a "what if" scenario in place?

Now Mr Jolly. Why would any competent GM go into a season counting on a guy that more than likely is gonna do some time? Would'nt you kind off expect his play to drop off considering the thought of jail time in Texas just might be a very unpleasent thought?

No, you can make up all the excuses you want (and that is exactly what you have done) in order to cover up for our brain-dead GM. Funny how last season, all the Thompson backers wanted the credit going to Teddy yet now as the free-fall continues, those same people have all kinds of excuses for him. I would warrant that as a tad hypocritical. It's a results orientated business and Teddy has failed big-time- a FACT that more and more fans and writers are seeing.

Excellent analysis!

[Patler]

I think you have a good basis for your opinion, but to play devil's advocate, I would say that:

KGB's disappearing act did not come out of left field. He was OK last year, but looking back I think a good argument could be made that he had lost half a step even then.

Jolly's legal problems are a too convenient of an excuse, is it fair to blame them for his play? Early in the year he looked better and that is when the legal problems were probably more of a distraction.

Pickett is currently playing at about the level he was before he came to Green Bay. Is it more reasonable to assume that last year was an indicator what to expect or his prior years? It is at least arguable.

As for Jenkins being injured, TT should have expected at least one injury.

I just don't think it is as clear-cut of an issue as your posts suggest.

KGB had 9.5 sacks and 23.5 hurries in '07, better numbers than he had put up in the two previous seasons. He had a sack and a half in the two playoff games. I'm not sure how there were any negatives or warning signs from that performance. Even if he was just OK in your evaluation, he was better than he had been in quite a while.

Jolly, who knows? My only point was that for two season he seemed to improve. Why wouldn't you expect him to play at least as well in year 3? I don't know if it was just a slump, his legal problems or what. Whatever is the cause, there was no reason to expect it.

As for Jenkins injury, all TT can do is try to continue to build depth everywhere and anywhere when he can. You might think that you are likely to lose a player early somewhere, no reason to expect it to be Jenkins anymore than Kampman. He ended '07 with three experienced DEs in Kampman, Jenkins and KGB, a couple holdover #4 guys in Hunter and Montgomery, and he moved up to draft one for the future. I'm not sure why he should have realized that was not good enough. After Jenkins was IR'ed KGB was ineffective and at least 2 of the other 3 were hurt, too. He was on his 7th DE when he had to sign Pettway just to have a warm body that could play the position. Then he got hurt, too. Montgomery has missed games, Thompson has missed games, Hunter has missed games, KGB is gone, Pettway and Jenkins are on IR. How many DEs was he supposed to have?

The year before he came to GB, Pickett was pretty good, and he continued that his first two years in GB. He just turned 29 in October, why shouldn't he play as well as he had for the last 3 or more seasons? Actually, I don't think he was ever bad in St. Louis. he was just lumped in with an overall under performing line of high draft picks. I don't think there is really a big issue with him this year either. He hasn't been all that bad, not his best, but not a big deal.

[sharpe1027]

KGB had 9.5 sacks and 23.5 hurries in '07, better numbers than he had put up in the two previous seasons. He had a sack and a half in the two playoff games. I'm not sure how there were any negatives or warning signs from that performance. Even if he was just OK in your evaluation, he was better than he had been in quite a while.

Jolly, who knows? My only point was that for two season he seemed to improve. Why wouldn't you expect him to play at least as well in year 3? I don't know if it was just a slump, his legal problems or what. Whatever is the cause, there was no reason to expect it.

As for Jenkins injury, all TT can do is try to continue to build depth everywhere and anywhere when he can. You might think that you are likely to lose a player early somewhere, no reason to expect it to be Jenkins anymore than Kampman. He ended '07 with three experienced DEs in Kampman, Jenkins and KGB, a couple holdover #4 guys in Hunter and Montgomery, and he moved up to draft one for the future. I'm not sure why he should have realized that was not good enough. After Jenkins was IR'ed KGB was ineffective and at least 2 of the other 3 were hurt, too. He was on his 7th DE when he had to sign Pettway just to have a warm body that could play the position. Then he got hurt, too. Montgomery has missed games, Thompson has missed games, Hunter has missed games, KGB is gone, Pettway and Jenkins are on IR. How many DEs was he supposed to have?

The year before he came to GB, Pickett was pretty good, and he continued that his first two years in GB. He just turned 29 in October, why shouldn't he play as well as he had for the last 3 or more seasons? Actually, I don't think he was ever bad in St. Louis. he was just lumped in with an overall under performing line of high draft picks. I don't think there is really a big issue with him this year either. He hasn't been all that bad, not his best, but not a big deal.

Personally, I'm also of the mind that Pickett played pretty well this year. I think fault of the the horrid run defense lies elsewhere (losses at DE and MLB). So I'll agree with Pickett on the that basis.

IMO, KGB's play was a result of a limited number snaps with a good DE playing in front of him. In no way should he have been expected to start significant minutes.

What I really think it boils down to is that, other than Jenkins and Kampman, I don't think there was anybody on the roster that could have been expected to play significant minutes at DE. Thus, the team was one injury away from a huge step down in production.

That being said, in the modern era, I do not believe that there is a way to cover every contingency. Therefore, a GM has to role the dice on some positions/players. As an example, TT built up a lot of depth at DB and they needed and used ever bit of that depth. He also has good depth at WR and decent depth at LB.

[texaspackerbacker]

Patler, you do a helluva lot better job of analyzing than most of the jokers who get paid to do it.

A few odds and ends here:

This thread is the first I heard Woodson's contract is up. Is that true?

Harrell's pre-draft injury--the torn bicep thing--is NOT among the several post-draft problems he's had--and thus, was more a matter of bad luck that couldn't have been anticipated.

Yes, Thompson DOES need to conduct pretty much the same analysis Patler did going into next season. I think he will (and should) conclude that most of what we have now is serviceable, and barring injuries--a HUGE stipulation--we should return to at least the performance level of '07 in '09.

Just the same, I will depart from my usual staunch opposition to big money free agent signings, and advocate making a serious run for Julious Peppers. If ever there was a prospect to do what Reggie White did, Peppers would be it.

[esoxx]

Only the most extreme TT apologist would think the D-line failure is not TT's culpability....this year. Shamrock fits the bill. :lol:

[Deputy Nutz]

The defensive line fell apart in a couple of ways. One, injuries. When Hawk is playing WLB behind Jenkins he plays damn good football. No Jenkins Hawk gets handled by linemen. I noticed this when KGB would line up and teams would run the ball to that side. Again I saw this with Montgomery, and Thompson. There is no strength at the point of attack which allows linemen an fullbacks to reach the second level on our linebackers that play 6 yards off the ball which leads me to my next complaint, the defensive alignment. The Packers are getting gashed on misdirection an on the cutback. It seems teams are committing less blockers to the d-line an get more blockers to the second level with longer developing running plays away the center of the line.

Pickett hasn't played that bad, Jolly's play has slipped, but before he got hurt Barnett was playing poorly, and now Hawk is playing poorly in the middle. Both Hawk and Barnett are above average football players, it seems that teams have figured out the same scheme run by the Packers and have game planned effectively. Same goes for the pass rush. The Packers are not a good blitzing team, but I never see zone blitzes, I hardly ever see twists, or stunts on the d-line.

I said it before without ever adding veterans, quality NFL players to the roster the defensive line has to make due with players that are only ready for JV competition rather than varsity. That was my issue with the trade of Williams. He was a proven NFL football player, we traded him basically for a player in Harrell and his "potential" in 2008. He certainly did not make enough plays in 2007 to count on him for quality snaps in 2008, regardless of his draft status. The same could be said for KGB. He was not having a good season, but he was cut for future potential. KGB still gave us more of a pass rush then Pettway, Hunter, or Montgomery. He was already paid for this year.

[Fritz]

I would add that had TT given Williams the big, big contract he wanted, and given the way he has played in Cleveland this year, you'd have a salary cap that would be much tighter, thus putting at risk Jennings/Collins/ maybe Albert Haynesworth.

People here often seem to act like...well, fans. They want TT to have foreseen all the problems that occurred, to have invited Favre (and his salary) back, and to have kept Williams and given him a big contract. It's really hard to say whether this team would have improved enough to have won, say, two more games than they have given the addition of those two players. On top of that, you'd have a serious question as to whether Rodgers would be able to be kept, and you'd have serious issues trying to sign Collins and Jennings, much less go after an Albert Haynesworth.

Sometimes I am reminded of sports talk radio, where some guy will call up and say "I don't know why they don't trade that utility infielder we have for Albert Pujols. Stupid GM - we need a first baseman!"

[Deputy Nutz]

Fritz, I don't disagree, I thought the second round pick for Williams was great, I didn't much care for the pick of Brohm considering Thompson and McCarthy had put all of their eggs in the Rodgers' basket.

Anyways, again Thompson may of been gearing up for the 2008 free agent market with Haynesworth and Peppers, but I don't think so, I think he actually thought Harrell was going to contribute, and that a slew of ends named Montgomery, Hunt, and Thompson were capable of playing in the NFL. Mind you both the 1st and 2nd defensive ends went down, but it is not like Jenkins, or KGB were world beaters at the end of 2007.

It just seems that everything that Thompson has done up until this point has been for the future outside of the Woodson signing and the Pickett signing. Signings that if he didn't make he would have been run out of town. The Packers were desperate for a corner, and a defensive tackle. It seems at only times of desperation does Thomson go out an sign a player outside of his own. I still admit that the last two years there wasn't much in the terms of free agent. There wasn't a player that I thought the Packers were in desperate need of that was available.

But now I think the Packers are desperate for another game changer at defensive end, and another solid body in the interior.

[RashanGary]

It just seems that everything that Thompson has done up until this point has been for the future outside of the Woodson signing and the Pickett signing. Signings that if he didn't make he would have been run out of town. The Packers were desperate for a corner, and a defensive tackle. It seems at only times of desperation does Thomson go out an sign a player outside of his own. I still admit that the last two years there wasn't much in the terms of free agent. There wasn't a player that I thought the Packers were in desperate need of that was available.

But now I think the Packers are desperate for another game changer at defensive end, and another solid body in the interior.


Very astute observation. I agree. He seems to only truely use free agency in times of desperation. He's also been a pretty big fan of the superstuds. Say what you will about Arrington, but he was an elite talent for a little while. Woodson is elite. Vinitari, eltite kicker. Moss, elite. Gonzo, elite.

Haynesworth = elite IMO = TT will have interest
Our DL = Desperation IMO = TT will consider truely using UFA
Many teams without money = Our team has a lot of it = we should be one of a few teams in the AH sweepstakes


I think you make a great observation. Using that observation and a few other things I've observed from TT, I think we're going to make a strong push for AH. We'll see though. We'll see. As much as TT is not a mega dabbler in free agency, I think all of the stars are aligned on this one. I think it would be IN his M.O. to make a spash this offseason.

[Rastak]

I didn't realize Peppers was only 28 right now. If TT wanted to kick ass he'd blow his wad on both. The Pack has more money than god as far as the cap goes.

[RashanGary]

I didn't realize Peppers was only 28 right now. If TT wanted to kick ass he'd blow his wad on both. The Pack has more money than god as far as the cap goes.

Peppers will be franchised. Not worth the picks and the mega contract.

AH will be a monster contract, but we'll be able to keep our high picks we we can aquire more top end young talent along with the elite DLineman.

[Rastak]

I didn't realize Peppers was only 28 right now. If TT wanted to kick ass he'd blow his wad on both. The Pack has more money than god as far as the cap goes.

Peppers will be franchised. Not worth the picks and the mega contract.

AH will be a monster contract, but we'll be able to keep our high picks we we can aquire more top end young talent along with the elite DLineman.


Teddy wouldn't give up picks, that's true.

[digitaldean]

I do blame TT for some of the line woes, due in part to drafting Justin Harrell, who has yet to make an impact.

Considering that pick could have been for a bookend DE vs. our current paperweight, it bothers me.

Kampy played like a maniac last year. Williams played well, but he took plays off. KGB was a year older, plus was still a lightweight vs. the run.

To expect better things from the same group is puzzling at best, but really borders on maddening.

TT needs to pick a pure stud in the draft for d-line, especially if we have a top 10 first pick (plus if a lot of juniors do come out). I don't want to see any trades out of the first round. If he wants IMMEDIATE help (which he needs to keep from this same record next year), he will need to hit his top picks, plus 1-2 FA's.

[RashanGary]

TT needs to pick a pure stud in the draft for d-line, especially if we have a top 10 first pick (plus if a lot of juniors do come out). I don't want to see any trades out of the first round. If he wants IMMEDIATE help (which he needs to keep from this same record next year), he will need to hit his top picks, plus 1-2 FA's.

Look at the Hawk pick. Had we traded out we could have had two players better than Hawk. Sometimes standing pat does not mean more quality. It can just mean less good players (see the Hawk, Harrell, Mandrich, Buckley, Reynolds and other picks). See trading back and drafting Jennings. Let's not pretend sitting tight is all about quality adn trading back is all about junk. I can see how someone might put that together, but I can't see how that same person couldn't take a good look at recent history and immediately toss out that false logic.

[RashanGary]

All of that said, maybe a great defensive player slips to us and we can sit tight, pick and never look back. I'm hoping for that too, but I'm not so rigidly wired to assume one strategy is going to be the end all to our problems, esspecially when that one strategy has been historically negative in this franchises recent dealings.

[Fritz]

TT needs to pick a pure stud in the draft for d-line, especially if we have a top 10 first pick (plus if a lot of juniors do come out). I don't want to see any trades out of the first round. If he wants IMMEDIATE help (which he needs to keep from this same record next year), he will need to hit his top picks, plus 1-2 FA's.

Look at the Hawk pick. Had we traded out we could have had two players better than Hawk. Sometimes standing pat does not mean more quality. It can just mean less good players (see the Hawk, Harrell, Mandrich, Buckley, Reynolds and other picks). See trading back and drafting Jennings. Let's not pretend sitting tight is all about quality adn trading back is all about junk. I can see how someone might put that together, but I can't see how that same person couldn't take a good look at recent history and immediately toss out that false logic.

This is a good point. I'm not sure why people equate trading back with automatically picking up worse players. Percentage-wise, more first rounders work out, sure, but percentage-wise, also, the more picks you have, the better your chances.

[cpk1994]

TT needs to pick a pure stud in the draft for d-line, especially if we have a top 10 first pick (plus if a lot of juniors do come out). I don't want to see any trades out of the first round. If he wants IMMEDIATE help (which he needs to keep from this same record next year), he will need to hit his top picks, plus 1-2 FA's.

Look at the Hawk pick. Had we traded out we could have had two players better than Hawk. Sometimes standing pat does not mean more quality. It can just mean less good players (see the Hawk, Harrell, Mandrich, Buckley, Reynolds and other picks). See trading back and drafting Jennings. Let's not pretend sitting tight is all about quality adn trading back is all about junk. I can see how someone might put that together, but I can't see how that same person couldn't take a good look at recent history and immediately toss out that false logic.

This is a good point. I'm not sure why people equate trading back with automatically picking up worse players. Percentage-wise, more first rounders work out, sure, but percentage-wise, also, the more picks you have, the better your chances.Exactly. Remember Ron Wolf was noted as a master in drafting the 3rd - 6th rounds while being not so great in the first.

[texaspackerbacker]

I'd much rather have Peppers than Haynesworth, but if that's true--that he will be franchised, then I, and more importantly, Thompson would not, as somebody said, part with the draft picks.

Haynesworth, IMO, is not the sure thing that Peppers is. Haynesworth is a little older, and as I recall, has had both injury and character issues. Just the same, given the fact that our worst problem has been stopping the run, I'd take a chance on giving him that monster contract. I kinda doubt Thompson would do it, though, and I wouldn't be all that disappointed if he didn't.

I'm not near as negative on the current D-Line talent the Packers have, especially if Jenkins comes back healthy. It will be essentially the same as last season--13-3, but with more experience and probably without any deterioration from aging.

We don't need more mid-range free agent talent--Pickett, Jolly, Cole, Jenkins, Montgomery, Thompson, and Hunter are decent enough. I say, Superstar or Nothing at all when it comes to free agents.

[sharpe1027]

Teddy wouldn't give up picks, that's true.

He offered a higher draft pick than 29 other GMs for Moss. Supposedly, he was discussing draft picks for Gonzalezs. Seriously, how often are there significant trades for draft picks? There are maybe 3 or 4 a year, tops. That means that 28 GMs also won't give up picks...

I don't agree with the "only desperation" theory either. What was the Chillar signing? Besides, is it really a great idea to always spend a lot of money on a positions that you were solid at?

I've probably asked this 20 times and never once received a solid answer: How many FAs does the average GM sign a year? How many of them are legit and not just ST guys?

I think it is all to easy to compare FA moves of the whole league, or the one or two most active teams, to the Packers. TT is NOT the most aggressive FA player, but I bet he is not the least aggressive either.

[Pugger]

I had no problem with TT trading Williams. He is a decent backup but he wasn't worth the money he wanted. Last year when he became the starter after Jolly got injured he couldn't produce. And is he not producing in Cleveland because of a different scheme or is he really just a situational pass rusher who is better coming off the bench? I also remember on draft day a lot of us were excited about TT picking Brohm. If memory serves most thought that was a good value pick at that point in the draft. But when the young man struggled in preseason like so many QBs do a lot of fans began to howl. :?

[sharpe1027]

I had no problem with TT trading Williams. He is a decent backup but he wasn't worth the money he wanted. Last year when he became the starter after Jolly got injured he couldn't produce. And is he not producing in Cleveland because of a different scheme or is he really just a situational pass rusher who is better coming off the bench? I also remember on draft day a lot of us were excited about TT picking Brohm. If memory serves most thought that was a good value pick at that point in the draft. But when the young man struggled in preseason like so many QBs do a lot of fans began to howl. :?

Agreed, on all accounts. Both Rodgers and Favre got similar bad reviews for their first year play. Too early to tell.

[KYPack]

I had no problem with TT trading Williams. He is a decent backup but he wasn't worth the money he wanted. Last year when he became the starter after Jolly got injured he couldn't produce. And is he not producing in Cleveland because of a different scheme or is he really just a situational pass rusher who is better coming off the bench? I also remember on draft day a lot of us were excited about TT picking Brohm. If memory serves most thought that was a good value pick at that point in the draft. But when the young man struggled in preseason like so many QBs do a lot of fans began to howl. :?

Me neither.

Williams is a spot guy all the way. Why Cleveland thought they could move him to a 3-4 LDE is beyond me.

I loved the Brohm pick when it happened. I saw Brohm and Flynn play in '07. There was no doubt in my mind Brohm was the superior player and pro prospect. Brohm played a lot more than Flynn did in college. Brohm played on a team that ran pro set with lots of crosses and slants. More importantly, Louisiville had a shaky OLine in Brohm's senior year. He was under duress in every game and he handled the stress really well. Brohm's brother played in the NFL and his dad was a coach.

Flynn was a one year starter and played behind a solid OLine in his one season. UK played LSU and beat 'em by pressuring the hell out of Flynn.

Then, they both hit the Pack and did a role reversal. Brohm was the guy freaked out by the pro's while Flynn hit his stride early and clearly was the better player in his first season.

I still think it was insane to keep two first year QB's as the back-ups. I'm pretty sure we will get at least one long time QB out of this, but I still don't know which one it will be.