NFL Scouts Rank Rodgers 19th in NFL

[Partial]

According to a survey of several of NFL executives who have been in scouting for more than 10 years, they have ranked Aaron Rodgers as the 19th best starting quarterback in the NFL. I would post the article, but its a little too dirty and can be found in the trash bin where it belongs.

With that said, maybe that Partial asshole was pretty spot on with his assessment, as it matches dead on balls with what the experienced NFL scouts say, versus what the arm-chair homer on this board says!

[Partial]

Not only that, but 12 quarterbacks, ironically enough most of the 12 *I* mentioned were unanimously chosen by these NFL executives to be much better players.

Very nice telling quote:

"I don't know how much of a big-play guy he is. And I don't know that he can put stuff together when you need it as opposed to accumulating stats. To me, the key is whether a guy can go out and win a game. He hasn't done that. Even Favre, as a young guy, he'd (mess) stuff up, but when it came down to the end he'd find a way. Like Steve McNair, he may play awful but would make plays when they needed to win the game. Even Vince Young is 18-11 as a starter."

Like I've said all along, he is playing like Chad Pennington this year! I personally believe he has potential to be more, but right now he is playing it very conservative and minimizing risks. Chad Pennington to the T!

The article is loaded with great quotes. It really is a great read for the homers. Seriously, tons of famous NFL talent evaluators, including Bill Walsh (Steve Young, Joe Montana) saying they think he is maxed out or near maxed out, etc.

[LL2]

Yeah, and a lot of scouts eat horseshit.

[Bossman641]

Scouts also thought Mandarich was a can't miss prospect, Driver would never make it, Brady sucked, Ryan Leaf was unstoppable, Marques Colston wasn't good, Reggie Bush would light up the league like he did at USC...

I think you get my point

[Patler]

The article is loaded with great quotes. It really is a great read for the homers. Seriously, tons of famous NFL talent evaluators, including Bill Walsh (Steve Young, Joe Montana) saying they think he is maxed out or near maxed out, etc.

Well, since Bill Walsh has been dead since July 2007 I'm not sure how valid is opinion is for the Aaron Rodgers we saw this season, or even the Aaron Rodgers we saw in pre-season 2007, or the Aaron Rodgers we saw replacing Favre against the Cowboys in 2007..

[Sparkey]

Very nice telling quote:

"I don't know how much of a big-play guy he is. And I don't know that he can put stuff together when you need it as opposed to accumulating stats. To me, the key is whether a guy can go out and win a game. He hasn't done that. Even Favre, as a young guy, he'd (mess) stuff up, but when it came down to the end he'd find a way. Like Steve McNair, he may play awful but would make plays when they needed to win the game. Even Vince Young is 18-11 as a starter."

Like I've said all along, he is playing like Chad Pennington this year! I personally believe he has potential to be more, but right now he is playing it very conservative and minimizing risks. Chad Pennington to the T!

The article is loaded with great quotes. It really is a great read for the homers. Seriously, tons of famous NFL talent evaluators, including Bill Walsh (Steve Young, Joe Montana) saying they think he is maxed out or near maxed out, etc.

Well, since Bill Walsh has been dead since July 2007 I'm not sure how valid is opinion is for the Aaron Rodgers we saw this season, or even the Aaron Rodgers we saw in pre-season 2007, or the Aaron Rodgers we saw replacing Favre against the Cowboys in 2007..

It just may be that they held a seance to get Bill's updated and informed thoughts on Rodgers.

[Partial]

http://www.homero-simpson.com/photos/homer-simpson-elvis.gif

[Partial]

Scouts also thought Mandarich was a can't miss prospect, Driver would never make it, Brady sucked, Ryan Leaf was unstoppable, Marques Colston wasn't good, Reggie Bush would light up the league like he did at USC...

I think you get my point

It's a lot harder evaluating a college player versus someone who has played in the ranks of the NFL, don't you say? Once you see and have footage of how someone matches up with real world NFL players, its a heck of a lot easier to judge,

Do you agree?

[Bossman641]

Scouts also thought Mandarich was a can't miss prospect, Driver would never make it, Brady sucked, Ryan Leaf was unstoppable, Marques Colston wasn't good, Reggie Bush would light up the league like he did at USC...

I think you get my point

It's a lot harder evaluating a college player versus someone who has played in the ranks of the NFL, don't you say? Once you see and have footage of how someone matches up with real world NFL players, its a heck of a lot easier to judge,

Do you agree?

I agree to a point. 14 starts and a few mop-up appearances prior to that is not enough to project a career, especially for a guy like Rodgers who appears bright, hard-working, and willing to learn. He has enough playing time to where we can critique where he is at right now, but not enough for us to point out his weak tendencies or the things he will always struggle with.

In the article, how the hell did scouts rank VY ahead of Rodgers as of right now? Really? They'd rather have the guy who has contemplated quitting football multiple times and asked to be taken out of the game? Maybe in the future when he rededicates himself, but right now, no way.

[PackerTimer]

The problem with this is that they say winning games is all that matters. Winning games is obviously important. But you can't look at a teams win/loss record and simply say, "wow they have a great QB," or "their QB is certianly winning them games." What if their QB isn't doing anything to win games. What if they run for 200 yards a game and their defense is superb. Vince Young and Kerry Collins are perfect examples of why the QB wins games logic is somewhat faulty.

Young did very little to win a lot of those games. Tennessee has an amazing defense and many times they won games despite all the mistakes and 50 percect competion rate of Vince Young. So yeah he won some games but how many times did the Tennessee defense give up a late score to negate what he did like the Packers defense has done this year.

There is no way Vince Young is better than Aaron Rodgers. NO POSSIBLE WAY. I don't care what this article says. The fact that it says it, makes it completely worthless and the scouts who said it completely worthless.

[run pMc]

With that said, maybe that Partial asshole was pretty spot on with his assessment, as it matches dead on balls with what the experienced NFL scouts say, versus what the arm-chair homer on this board says!

I didn't see the article.
I'm beginning to get the picture -- you don't like Rodgers.
Fine. Do we have any other answers at QB? FA QBs are usually overpriced or washed up. Besides, somewhere Rick Pitino is saying "Brett Favre isn't walking thru that door..." LOL

I'm curious -- where do they have Grossman, Orton, Frerotte, Jackson, Orlovsky and Culpepper?

VY is talented, but I wonder about what's between his ears. I also wonder what the criteria was for how QB's were ranked.
I think Rodgers has played decent -- not great -- just slightly better than I expected. I also expected Grant to be more help, and the defense to be able to tackle a RB. I'm not a hater, but I'm not totally on the bandwagon either...I need to see how he plays next season to see if he's learned & improved from this year.

[denverYooper]

The problem with this is that they say winning games is all that matters. Winning games is obviously important. But you can't look at a teams win/loss record and simply say, "wow they have a great QB," or "their QB is certianly winning them games." What if their QB isn't doing anything to win games. What if they run for 200 yards a game and their defense is superb. Vince Young and Kerry Collins are perfect examples of why the QB wins games logic is somewhat faulty.


Eli Manning is helped out quite a bit by the Giants running game and good line play also.

As much as I like Romo, he has yet to show he can win a big game to get the Cowboys to the show.

[sheepshead]

Partial, since the stats don't back you up-why cant you find the article? Anything on newsprint is also on the web?
Is it through 15 games? why would anyone get that many scouts together after 15 games?

[HarveyWallbangers]

I trust Jaws more than most of those scouts when it comes to judging QBs. Also, he doesn't have an agenda. Some of these scouts may have advised their team not to draft Rodgers in the top half of the first round when he came out. Scouts are fine, but they are often stubborn. They wouldn't want to change their evaluation on a guy because it makes it look like they missed on their initial evaluations.


Pete Dougherty column: Jaworski sees bright future for Rodgers

The Green Bay Packers have their long-term answer at quarterback. The Chicago Bears don’t.

That’s the opinion of Ron Jaworski, the former NFL quarterback who now provides color commentary for ESPN’s telecasts of Monday night football.

Jaworski’s expertise is that of a full-time scout’s when it comes to evaluating NFL quarterbacks. He studies film extensively each week in preparation upcoming games. He played quarterback for 16 years in the NFL, including starting for the Philadelphia Eagles for 10 straight seasons.

He’s watched the videotape of every Packers game this season and has seen every pass by the Packers’ Aaron Rodgers and the Bears’ Kyle Orton. With Rodgers, he sees a quarterback with all the traits to be a top performer.

“I think they’ve got a quarterback for 10 years,” Jaworski said in an interview this week. “They’ve got a lot of areas to address, but they’ve got the quarterback.”

It’s hard to accuse Jaworski of blowing smoke. His public evaluation of Rodgers coming out of college was far different, and this week when asked if Orton is the Bears’ quarterback for the long haul, he offered this candid response:

“No. I think he’s a solid quarterback, but I don’t see him as the long-term answer in Chicago. It’s no disrespect for him. The guy can play 10 or 12 years in this league, but I just don’t see the — unless there’s an epiphany, and from what I’ve seen of late, I just don’t see it. If you’d have asked me this earlier in the season, I’d have said, ‘Yeah, I think the guy’s playing pretty well, he trusts his receivers, he’s making some terrific throws.’ He made a throw against Atlanta which may have been the throw of the year, except Atlanta came back and Matt Ryan took ’em right down the field (for the win). But I thought he was playing much more confident back then.”

Rodgers and Orton, who will face off Monday night for the second time this year, have been the two best quarterbacks in the NFC North Division this season. But if determining the better of the two was a close call early in the season — two of three scouts this column interviewed in early November chose Orton — it doesn’t look as close now. Though Orton has more wins — Chicago has eight, the Packers five — Rodgers looks like the better player.

Jaworski rated Rodgers better in the three major categories a scout can glean from tape (leadership skills aren’t apparent watching game tape alone): Arm talent, mobility and decision making.

“(Rodgers) has an amazing skill set. I think he’ll play very well for a long period of time,” Jaworski said.

Rodgers and Orton are part of a 2005 draft class that in retrospect looks lean at quarterback. The current starters from the class are Rodgers (first round, No. 24 overall), Washington’s Jason Campbell (first round, No. 25 overall), Orton (fourth round, No. 106), Cleveland’s Derek Anderson (sixth round, No. 213), New England’s Matt Cassel (seventh round, No. 230) and Cincinnati’s Ryan Fitzpatrick (seventh round by St. Louis, No. 250). Cassel, Anderson and Fitzpatrick all were backups who became starters this season because of injuries, and of those three only Cassel is a likely future starter.

After four years in the NFL, Rodgers and Cassel look like the cream of that class, and most of the rest of the 14 quarterbacks drafted in ’05 have washed out. That starts with the top pick overall from that draft, Alex Smith of the San Francisco 49ers, who has struggled when he’s played and had a series of injuries to his throwing shoulder that landed him on injured reserve this year. He won’t be back with the 49ers next year unless he takes a gigantic pay cut, and even then he might be inclined to start over somewhere else.

Three other quarterbacks in the ’05 class had a shot at starting earlier in their careers, lost the job and now are backups: Charlie Frye (third round by Cleveland, No. 67), who now is Seattle’s No. 3 quarterback; Andrew Walter (third round, No. 69), Oakland’s backup; and Dan Orlovsky (fifth-round by Detroit, No. 145 overall), who has been on the Lions’ starting-quarterback merry-go-round this season.

The other four are out of the NFL: David Greene (third round by Seattle, No. 85), who’s not in football right now; Stefan Lefors (fourth round by Carolina, No. 121), a backup for Edmonton in the CFL; Adrian McPherson (fifth round by New Orleans, No. 152), who was cut by Grand Rapids of the AFL last spring; and James Kilian (seventh round by Kansas City, No. 229 overall), who’s not in football either.

Jaworski didn’t recall the order he rated the top quarterbacks coming out in ‘05 but he remembers downgrading Rodgers and doubting his ability to be a top-tier quarterback because of his arm strength — Jaworski didn’t see enough good deep throws on Rodgers’ game videotape at California.

Rodgers, on the other hand, remembers well Jaworski’s ratings in 2005. He said Jaworski rated Smith as the best quarterback in the class, Campbell second and him third. Rodgers also remembers Jaworski’s 30-second TV spot evaluating him as not having a good enough deep arm, and deploring his high ball carriage while dropping back, which Jaworski said cost Rodgers’ throwing strength.

Rogers said he respects Jaworski’s work because the color man watches videotape extensively and had a long and successful career as an NFL quarterback, but he was dumbfounded by the evaluation and called it “probably the worst 30-second piece in history of evaluation of a quarterback pre-draft.

“He said me, I held the ball way up here,” Rodgers added, holding his hands above his right ear, “and lost velocity and wasn’t efficient. I said, ‘I just threw for 66 percent.’ I didn’t understand his evaluation.”

Nearly four years later, Jaworski thinks differently. He now sees a young quarterback with great promise even though the Packers have lost six of their last seven games, and even though Rodgers hasn’t won in the six comeback attempts he’s had after getting the ball back with less than 5 minutes to play and the chance for a go-ahead score. Rodgers ranks ninth in the NFL in passer rating (91.8 points) and No. 10 in average gain per pass (7.45 yards), which is one the better indicators of passing efficiency.

“I think he’s played terrific, I really do,” Jaworski said. “Some of the problems he’s had are symptomatic of a young quarterback on the field. Obviously he’s had a few years to learn, but he’s still basically a rookie on the field. So you see some bad decisions. What I see from him lately is trying to make plays that aren’t there, which is probably pressing like a lot of the guys (on the Packers) seem to be. When you get in the tailspin they’re in you try to make everything perfect, and in this league you can’t do that. He’s kind of, as of late, trying to force plays, and sometimes you end up being embarrassed by that. He’s pressed a little bit. But overall, the body of work has been outstanding.”

Here’s how Jaworski rated Rodgers’ skills:

Arm strength: “When I evaluated him coming out of Cal, I did not see the number of deep throws that projected him to be an upper-echelon NFL quarterback. I saw a good quarterback but not enough of the deeper throws. When I saw him at training camp (this year), obviously he had improved dramatically, the arm strength, the ability to throw the ball down the field accurately, and it’s kind of played out through the season. His arm strength is outstanding.”

Mobility and pocket sense: “That part has gotten better, which I kind of thought it would, feeling the pressure, moving, he’s been very good at that. He’s been very good with play action, his quarterback rating is one of the best in the league off play action, which as an inexperienced quarterback is difficult because there’s a blind spot. You make that play-action fake, you turn your back to the defense, you turn your head to the defense, and you snap around and identify people quickly, is a very good asset to have. He’s very good at that.”

Decision-making: “It’s very good. Some of the mistakes he made, I think he was pressing, trying to make every play, and at times the offensive line has let him down a little bit, they have struggled with a good firm pass protection. Clearly when a quarterback is throwing out of a man hole it makes it a lot more difficult.”

Jaworski also rated Orton:

Arm strength: “It’s above average, not a great arm. Certainly Aaron has a much stronger arm.”

Mobility and pocket sense: “He needs help, he needs protection. He’s not a guy that’s going to move around a lot, has a tendency to stare down receivers.”

Decision making: “Normally (the Bears’ tight-end oriented offense) is not a progression read for him, it’s an inside-out, and at that point the ball’s out. I don’t think at this point in his career he’s very proficient at going through that progression.”

[BallHawk]

The article is loaded with great quotes. It really is a great read for the homers. Seriously, tons of famous NFL talent evaluators, including Bill Walsh (Steve Young, Joe Montana) saying they think he is maxed out or near maxed out, etc.

Well, since Bill Walsh has been dead since July 2007 I'm not sure how valid is opinion is for the Aaron Rodgers we saw this season, or even the Aaron Rodgers we saw in pre-season 2007, or the Aaron Rodgers we saw replacing Favre against the Cowboys in 2007..

This is a key example of showing how ridiculously foolish and ignorant Partial is.....quoting a dead man.

God, you really enjoy talking out of your ass, don't you, P?

[Bossman641]

The article is loaded with great quotes. It really is a great read for the homers. Seriously, tons of famous NFL talent evaluators, including Bill Walsh (Steve Young, Joe Montana) saying they think he is maxed out or near maxed out, etc.

Well, since Bill Walsh has been dead since July 2007 I'm not sure how valid is opinion is for the Aaron Rodgers we saw this season, or even the Aaron Rodgers we saw in pre-season 2007, or the Aaron Rodgers we saw replacing Favre against the Cowboys in 2007..

This is a key example of showing how ridiculously foolish and ignorant Partial is.....quoting a dead man.

God, you really enjoy talking out of your ass, don't you, P?

There's a quote in the article from Walsh giving Walsh's take on Rodgers from when he was drafted. Not sure what relevance that has to this year at all.

Walsh basically said that since Rodgers didn't even have a Division I and had to play at a junior college his upside was limited. Called him a great college system QB.

[KYPack]

Here's a good thing to help have the discussion.

The list...

As long as you don't lift the article directly and credit JSO, there is NO copyright infringement.

JSO consulted some NFL scouts and came up with the following list:

I've added some comments to the scouts and JSO's opinions

They rated 12 quarterbacks superior to Rodgers by a 4-0 vote of the scouts:
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Ben Roethlisberger
Jay Cutler
Drew Brees
Eli Manning
Tony Romo (Is he, or ain't he, I don't really know)
Carson Palmer (When healty, for sure. Some guys never come back from the elbow, do they Mr Bradshaw?)
Matt Ryan
Donovan McNabb
Philip Rivers (You could quibble about Rivers if you want. Sometimes his ego overloads his brain)
Kurt Warner

All 5 year or so starters, except for Ryan, the Uber Rookie. 2 years ago, everybody would yell about Warner's inclusion, but yeah, these guys have time and grade & are solid NFL QB's. Rodgers is in his 1st season as the man.

Three guys were chosen over Rodgers by a 3-1 margin. IOW, one scout disagreed with the other 3 scouts

Brett Favre (let's not go there)
Jake Delhomme (I'd have to say JD is definitely a better starting QB than AR.)
Vince Young (Jeff Fisher disagrees with the "scouts")




These 3 QB's finished in a 2-2 tie with Rodgers, so 2 scouts yea, and two scouts nay

Jason Campbell (Wildly inconsistent and has had his ups and downs all year)
Chad Pennington (Sure, Chad is a helluva man and competitor. AR has the arm and talent all over Chad. Upside? Give me AR any time for potential)
Jeff Garcia (Benched for a bit, I'd say Rodgers has had a better year.)

If you look at it, Rodgers is about the 14th or 15th best QB in the NFL. Top half of the league in his first year as a starter. Not that shabby. His rating was 12? Maybe he outplayed 2-3 of the more highly rated QB's

It's just a list, about right in points, highly debatable in others.

[Partial]

Scouts also thought Mandarich was a can't miss prospect, Driver would never make it, Brady sucked, Ryan Leaf was unstoppable, Marques Colston wasn't good, Reggie Bush would light up the league like he did at USC...

I think you get my point

It's a lot harder evaluating a college player versus someone who has played in the ranks of the NFL, don't you say? Once you see and have footage of how someone matches up with real world NFL players, its a heck of a lot easier to judge,

Do you agree?

I agree to a point. 14 starts and a few mop-up appearances prior to that is not enough to project a career, especially for a guy like Rodgers who appears bright, hard-working, and willing to learn. He has enough playing time to where we can critique where he is at right now, but not enough for us to point out his weak tendencies or the things he will always struggle with.

In the article, how the hell did scouts rank VY ahead of Rodgers as of right now? Really? They'd rather have the guy who has contemplated quitting football multiple times and asked to be taken out of the game? Maybe in the future when he rededicates himself, but right now, no way.

Work ethic aside, give me Young any day of the week over Rodgers. You can learn athleticism.

[KYPack]

Work ethic aside, give me Young any day of the week over Rodgers. You can learn athleticism.

It's the opposite.

You can coach guys to PLAY better, You CAN'T learn athleticism. That's what you are born with. You can get in the Gym, make yourself stronger and learn how to play more effectively. But you are born with athleticism.

Young is probably the world's best example of that. He's the best athlete on the list. But he isn't the best at the thing you can learn.

Being an NFL QB.

[Zool]

Vince, I dont really want to play pro football, Young? Really?

[Bossman641]

Scouts also thought Mandarich was a can't miss prospect, Driver would never make it, Brady sucked, Ryan Leaf was unstoppable, Marques Colston wasn't good, Reggie Bush would light up the league like he did at USC...

I think you get my point

It's a lot harder evaluating a college player versus someone who has played in the ranks of the NFL, don't you say? Once you see and have footage of how someone matches up with real world NFL players, its a heck of a lot easier to judge,

Do you agree?

I agree to a point. 14 starts and a few mop-up appearances prior to that is not enough to project a career, especially for a guy like Rodgers who appears bright, hard-working, and willing to learn. He has enough playing time to where we can critique where he is at right now, but not enough for us to point out his weak tendencies or the things he will always struggle with.

In the article, how the hell did scouts rank VY ahead of Rodgers as of right now? Really? They'd rather have the guy who has contemplated quitting football multiple times and asked to be taken out of the game? Maybe in the future when he rededicates himself, but right now, no way.

Work ethic aside, give me Young any day of the week over Rodgers. You can learn athleticism.

I'm going to assume you meant you CAN'T learn athleticism. I don't disagree. On a purely physical standpoint, Young has Rodgers beat. Young has all the tools. Big, fast, strong; he was supposed to be the one to finally redefine the QB position that Vick failed at.

However, he never got his throwing motion and accuracy issues figured out. And now there are serious doubts about whether he even has the desire to be an NFL QB.

Rodgers>Young right now

[sharpe1027]

I'm going to assume you meant you CAN'T learn athleticism. I don't disagree. On a purely physical standpoint, Young has Rodgers beat. Young has all the tools. Big, fast, strong; he was supposed to be the one to finally redefine the QB position that Vick failed at.

However, he never got his throwing motion and accuracy issues figured out. And now there are serious doubts about whether he even has the desire to be an NFL QB.

Rodgers>Young right now

Ryan Leaf was judged by many scouts to have better physical tools than Manning. I would assume Leaf would also be judged better than Rodgers with respect to many physical abilities. Of course, that's really not the point of this discussion.

IMHO, Partial (Tank2) just looks for any position that will get a lot of responses and then defends the position (maybe just to keep the conversation going). Partial seems to be looking for any and all possible ways to rock the boat. I must admit it is entertaining ... to a point. :lol:

[digitaldean]

Vince, I dont really want to play pro football, Young? Really?

Is he related to Vince "I am so thinskinned to booing, I have to sulk, go into depression and carry a gun to threaten to blow my brains out" Young?

Partial, are you channeling Bill Walsh now? Maybe we should have a "Crossing Over" thread just for you.

You are bordering on Pacopete's domain. Find any argument that props up your point and ignore evidence to the contrary (even if your evidence is coming from a guy that could be auditioning for the next Weekend at Bernie's sequel).

I say AR's a solid QB. Great or HOF material? Doubtful, but I have a better gut feeling watching him than I did dregs like Randy Wright, Anthony Dilweg, TJ Rubley, Blair Kiel, David Whitehurst, etc., etc. No one in their right mind is saying he is the 2nd coming of BF.

He's led his team to leads/ties/game winning FG opportunities more than he has lost games (only to have a Twinkie-like defense choke shortly thereafter or have a FG missed).

Also, did you see Favre yesterday? When he wasn't running for his life or sacked he was throwing up hopeless across-the-field picks or underthrowing receivers. And when he finally did hit the mark in a key spot, Coles or Franks had cement block hands. Since points are the only things that matter to you, look at Favre over the last 4 weeks:

1 TD, 6 picks

[SkinBasket]

AR is extremely comparable to Eli, I think. You put AR on that team, I would suspect he would have very similar numbers and wins, all without that stoopid looking face. I also think Eli should be more toward the bottom of that list, though.

Picking VY over Rodgers is retarded. Even before he proved he's got the whackies in his head, he was never terribly impressive. Jumping on the Ryan bandwagon seems premature as well, but I guess then the scouts can claim they knew all along he projected into a decent starting QB. And at this point, Palmer might have to be made into an android... or would that be a cyborg? I always get the two confused... Anyway, he might need extensive rebuilding before he's effective again - if ever.

[Bossman641]

I'm going to assume you meant you CAN'T learn athleticism. I don't disagree. On a purely physical standpoint, Young has Rodgers beat. Young has all the tools. Big, fast, strong; he was supposed to be the one to finally redefine the QB position that Vick failed at.

However, he never got his throwing motion and accuracy issues figured out. And now there are serious doubts about whether he even has the desire to be an NFL QB.

Rodgers>Young right now

IMHO, Partial (Tank2) just looks for any position that will get a lot of responses and then defends the position (maybe just to keep the conversation going). Partial seems to be looking for any and all possible ways to rock the boat. I must admit it is entertaining ... to a point. :lol:

I've suspected the same thing for a while, and I believe Partial has posted as much before that he likes to stir the pot from time to time. He normally doesn't carry it on this long or to this extent. Kudos to you Partial.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Three of four scouts rated Vince Young higher than Aaron Rodgers? That is extremely laughable, and I doubt even the biggest supporters of Young (Bulldog?) would even do that at this point. Notice that Young was highly touted by these scouts when he came out--which is why he went 3rd overall. I'm thinking some of them are trying to cover their own failure to scout these two guys appropriately?

[Partial]

I'm going to assume you meant you CAN'T learn athleticism. I don't disagree. On a purely physical standpoint, Young has Rodgers beat. Young has all the tools. Big, fast, strong; he was supposed to be the one to finally redefine the QB position that Vick failed at.

However, he never got his throwing motion and accuracy issues figured out. And now there are serious doubts about whether he even has the desire to be an NFL QB.

Rodgers>Young right now

IMHO, Partial (Tank2) just looks for any position that will get a lot of responses and then defends the position (maybe just to keep the conversation going). Partial seems to be looking for any and all possible ways to rock the boat. I must admit it is entertaining ... to a point. :lol:

I've suspected the same thing for a while, and I believe Partial has posted as much before that he likes to stir the pot from time to time. He normally doesn't carry it on this long or to this extent. Kudos to you Partial.

Again... instead of looking objective and listening to what real NFL scouts say, you would rather trust your uninformed and unprofessional opinion.

I seem to remember Young carrying a Titans team on his back. This year he has some head issues. I'm not sweating it.

[sharpe1027]

Again... instead of looking objective and listening to what real NFL scouts say, you would rather trust your uninformed and unprofessional opinion.

I seem to remember Young carrying a Titans team on his back. This year he has some head issues. I'm not sweating it.

Partial, if you show one article in support of a position, that means that other articles and reasoned opinions must be wrong? :?

[Bossman641]

I'm going to assume you meant you CAN'T learn athleticism. I don't disagree. On a purely physical standpoint, Young has Rodgers beat. Young has all the tools. Big, fast, strong; he was supposed to be the one to finally redefine the QB position that Vick failed at.

However, he never got his throwing motion and accuracy issues figured out. And now there are serious doubts about whether he even has the desire to be an NFL QB.

Rodgers>Young right now

IMHO, Partial (Tank2) just looks for any position that will get a lot of responses and then defends the position (maybe just to keep the conversation going). Partial seems to be looking for any and all possible ways to rock the boat. I must admit it is entertaining ... to a point. :lol:

I've suspected the same thing for a while, and I believe Partial has posted as much before that he likes to stir the pot from time to time. He normally doesn't carry it on this long or to this extent. Kudos to you Partial.

Again... instead of looking objective and listening to what real NFL scouts say, you would rather trust your uninformed and unprofessional opinion.

I seem to remember Young carrying a Titans team on his back. This year he has some head issues. I'm not sweating it.

Some "head issues"? Haha, I guess that's one way to put it.

I frankly could care less what the scouts say. I would take Rodgers over VY in a heartbeat. I'm not speaking for the scouts, I'm speaking for myself. You and the scouts can have VY, although I'm not sure how much good he could do from the bench...or a shrink's couch.

[sheepshead]

The NFL has 450 non-player employees--who are these "4" jamokes anyway and why do we care what they say?

[Gunakor]

Again... instead of looking objective and listening to what real NFL scouts say, you would rather trust your uninformed and unprofessional opinion.


Actually, many times I would. I don't need a paid employee of the NFL telling me things that I can see with my own two eyes. I mean, these are the same scouts that rank Vince Young over Aaron Rodgers. You'll understand if I don't find this article too credible, even if only for that reason.

NFL scouts have a piss poor record evaluating QB's recently. I'd avise you not to take everything they say at face value. I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt here, but I simply cannot without seeing their explaination as to why they graded each QB where they did. Can you at least post a link if you can't post the entire article?

[Zool]

Same scouts that blasted Houston for taking Williams over Bush? The only thing that makes them scouts instead of average people is they are wrong less than other people. But its not by a wide margin or there would only be 2 rounds in the NFL draft.

[Sparkey]

Scouts also thought Mandarich was a can't miss prospect, Driver would never make it, Brady sucked, Ryan Leaf was unstoppable, Marques Colston wasn't good, Reggie Bush would light up the league like he did at USC...

I think you get my point

It's a lot harder evaluating a college player versus someone who has played in the ranks of the NFL, don't you say? Once you see and have footage of how someone matches up with real world NFL players, its a heck of a lot easier to judge,

Do you agree?

I agree to a point. 14 starts and a few mop-up appearances prior to that is not enough to project a career, especially for a guy like Rodgers who appears bright, hard-working, and willing to learn. He has enough playing time to where we can critique where he is at right now, but not enough for us to point out his weak tendencies or the things he will always struggle with.

In the article, how the hell did scouts rank VY ahead of Rodgers as of right now? Really? They'd rather have the guy who has contemplated quitting football multiple times and asked to be taken out of the game? Maybe in the future when he rededicates himself, but right now, no way.

Work ethic aside, give me Young any day of the week over Rodgers. You can learn athleticism.

athleticism
1. an active interest in sports.
2. an obsessive participation in physical activity. — athletic, adj.

Partial, are you the little monkey with the hat and suit on that bangs his cymbals together until he gets his treat ?

http://store.drumbum.com/media/monkey-cymbals-drums.jpg

?? ? ??

[Partial]

I'm going to assume you meant you CAN'T learn athleticism. I don't disagree. On a purely physical standpoint, Young has Rodgers beat. Young has all the tools. Big, fast, strong; he was supposed to be the one to finally redefine the QB position that Vick failed at.

However, he never got his throwing motion and accuracy issues figured out. And now there are serious doubts about whether he even has the desire to be an NFL QB.

Rodgers>Young right now

IMHO, Partial (Tank2) just looks for any position that will get a lot of responses and then defends the position (maybe just to keep the conversation going). Partial seems to be looking for any and all possible ways to rock the boat. I must admit it is entertaining ... to a point. :lol:

I've suspected the same thing for a while, and I believe Partial has posted as much before that he likes to stir the pot from time to time. He normally doesn't carry it on this long or to this extent. Kudos to you Partial.

Again... instead of looking objective and listening to what real NFL scouts say, you would rather trust your uninformed and unprofessional opinion.

I seem to remember Young carrying a Titans team on his back. This year he has some head issues. I'm not sweating it.

Some "head issues"? Haha, I guess that's one way to put it.

I frankly could care less what the scouts say. I would take Rodgers over VY in a heartbeat. I'm not speaking for the scouts, I'm speaking for myself. You and the scouts can have VY, although I'm not sure how much good he could do from the bench...or a shrink's couch.

Regardless.. Fine.. Let's take Vince Young out of the equation.. What about the other 18? Point is he is an average QB to this point.

This isn't trolling, its stating a fact. What QBs wouldn't you take over him? I made a list of ones I would, and professional scouts tend to agree.

I'm not buying Harv's conspiracy theories.

[Sparkey]

I'm going to assume you meant you CAN'T learn athleticism. I don't disagree. On a purely physical standpoint, Young has Rodgers beat. Young has all the tools. Big, fast, strong; he was supposed to be the one to finally redefine the QB position that Vick failed at.

However, he never got his throwing motion and accuracy issues figured out. And now there are serious doubts about whether he even has the desire to be an NFL QB.

Rodgers>Young right now

IMHO, Partial (Tank2) just looks for any position that will get a lot of responses and then defends the position (maybe just to keep the conversation going). Partial seems to be looking for any and all possible ways to rock the boat. I must admit it is entertaining ... to a point. :lol:

I've suspected the same thing for a while, and I believe Partial has posted as much before that he likes to stir the pot from time to time. He normally doesn't carry it on this long or to this extent. Kudos to you Partial.

Again... instead of looking objective and listening to what real NFL scouts say, you would rather trust your uninformed and unprofessional opinion.

I seem to remember Young carrying a Titans team on his back. This year he has some head issues. I'm not sweating it.

Some "head issues"? Haha, I guess that's one way to put it.

I frankly could care less what the scouts say. I would take Rodgers over VY in a heartbeat. I'm not speaking for the scouts, I'm speaking for myself. You and the scouts can have VY, although I'm not sure how much good he could do from the bench...or a shrink's couch.

Regardless.. Fine.. Let's take Vince Young out of the equation.. What about the other 18? Point is he is an average QB to this point.

This isn't trolling, its stating a fact. What QBs wouldn't you take over him? I made a list of ones I would, and professional scouts tend to agree.

I'm not buying Harv's conspiracy theories.

It is an OPINION! Not a fact, but an OPINION. Just because it is printed and/or a few others yell out the same thing, does not make it fact.

[Zool]

Regardless.. Fine.. Let's take Vince Young out of the equation.. What about the other 18? Point is he is an average QB to this point.

This isn't trolling, its stating a fact. What QBs wouldn't you take over him? I made a list of ones I would, and professional scouts tend to agree.

I'm not buying Harv's conspiracy theories.

Hold on now, because your opinion coincides with some others, that makes it fact?

[digitaldean]

Regardless.. Fine.. Let's take Vince Young out of the equation.. What about the other 18? Point is he is an average QB to this point.

This isn't trolling, its stating a fact. What QBs wouldn't you take over him? I made a list of ones I would, and professional scouts tend to agree.

I'm not buying Harv's conspiracy theories.
http://rlv.zazzle.com/brightest_crayon_shirt-p235811944178550178i4z_400.jpg

[Gunakor]

Regardless.. Fine.. Let's take Vince Young out of the equation.. What about the other 18? Point is he is an average QB to this point.

This isn't trolling, its stating a fact. What QBs wouldn't you take over him? I made a list of ones I would, and professional scouts tend to agree.

I'm not buying Harv's conspiracy theories.

I wouldn't take any QB that isn't listed as one of the quarterbacks having a better QB rating, more yards passing, more TD's, less INT's, better 3rd down passer rating, higher red zone scoring percentage, higher completion percentage, etc., etc. than Rodgers has this year. Wins and losses are achieved by teams, not quarterbacks, so I discount the team's win/loss record as it is not a good illustration of the QB specifically. And in every measureable QB catagory there is, Rodgers is much better than 19th.

[Partial]

Same scouts that blasted Houston for taking Williams over Bush? The only thing that makes them scouts instead of average people is they are wrong less than other people. But its not by a wide margin or there would only be 2 rounds in the NFL draft.

These are people making current day assessments. How many scouts would say that today? That is the question.

[Partial]

You guys are so funny. This is just laughable. HOMERS!!

To your average packer rat he is a top 5 QB in the league!

[Bossman641]

I'm going to assume you meant you CAN'T learn athleticism. I don't disagree. On a purely physical standpoint, Young has Rodgers beat. Young has all the tools. Big, fast, strong; he was supposed to be the one to finally redefine the QB position that Vick failed at.

However, he never got his throwing motion and accuracy issues figured out. And now there are serious doubts about whether he even has the desire to be an NFL QB.

Rodgers>Young right now

IMHO, Partial (Tank2) just looks for any position that will get a lot of responses and then defends the position (maybe just to keep the conversation going). Partial seems to be looking for any and all possible ways to rock the boat. I must admit it is entertaining ... to a point. :lol:

I've suspected the same thing for a while, and I believe Partial has posted as much before that he likes to stir the pot from time to time. He normally doesn't carry it on this long or to this extent. Kudos to you Partial.

Again... instead of looking objective and listening to what real NFL scouts say, you would rather trust your uninformed and unprofessional opinion.

I seem to remember Young carrying a Titans team on his back. This year he has some head issues. I'm not sweating it.

Some "head issues"? Haha, I guess that's one way to put it.

I frankly could care less what the scouts say. I would take Rodgers over VY in a heartbeat. I'm not speaking for the scouts, I'm speaking for myself. You and the scouts can have VY, although I'm not sure how much good he could do from the bench...or a shrink's couch.

Regardless.. Fine.. Let's take Vince Young out of the equation.. What about the other 18? Point is he is an average QB to this point.

This isn't trolling, its stating a fact. What QBs wouldn't you take over him? I made a list of ones I would, and professional scouts tend to agree.

I'm not buying Harv's conspiracy theories.

Since you asked I'll tell you the QB's I would take before Rodgers. Here's the list they gave.

4-0: Brady, Peyton Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, Jay Cutler, Drew Brees, Eli Manning, Tony Romo, Carson Palmer, Matt Ryan, Donovan McNabb, Philip Rivers and Kurt Warner.

3-1: Brett Favre, Jake Delhomme and Vince Young.

Of these players, I'd definitely take Rodgers over Favre and Vince Young. I'd place Rodgers in the general vicinity of Delhomme, Eli Manning, and Ryan.

That places Rodgers around 15th-17th. I think that's pretty fair. I'll give Palmer the nod over Rodgers for now, but Palmer has now had an injured year in 2008 and a OK year in 2007. So it will be interesting to see how he bounces back.

[Lurker64]

Since I can't see the future, and there's only two games left to be played this season and they're largely irrelevant for matters other than draft position and pride, I don't think it matters where Rodgers is ranked this year.

Presumably he will get better with experience, most players do. I do think putting him behind Vince Young, who may never play another down of football in his life, is a little silly.

[Gunakor]

You guys are so funny. This is just laughable. HOMERS!!

To your average packer rat he is a top 5 QB in the league!

No, but he's a lot closer than you'd give him credit for.

I'd say he's 10-12 at this point. Certainly not bottom third in the NFL as your argument makes him out to be.

[mission]

You guys are so funny. This is just laughable. HOMERS!!

To your average packer rat he is a top 5 QB in the league!

Do you realize how many "lol" moments YOU'VE caused me (and everyone else) reading this thread?

I think the only FACT here is that AR has yet to have a defining moment where he's put the team on his back and got the big one. There are a million reasons for that and we can ride that around in circles all day long probably.

I mean... Vince Young... ??? Really?

The scouts article gave you a decent chance to ride its coattails to a point but you fucked it up like 4 different times now ...

I'd say quit while you're ahead but I'm not so sure that applies here ... 8-)

[packers04]

partial, i think your having an argument with yourself... nobody is going to claim that Aaron Rodgers is the best QB ever. he is just finishing up his ROOKIE YEAR, i dont care how many years or decades he has been practicing and holding a clipboard, he is a GREEN ROOKIE. this year he has either met people's expectations or exceeded them by a bit. He's had a fine year.

Hopefully the next two or threee he will move into the discussion for top 8 QB's in the league. What's the big deal? Why are you bashing him right now, it makes no sense what so ever... admit it, hes played pretty well for a first year player. hopefully he'll continue progressing. if not, in 2-4 years we'll be moving on. Simple. Why all the drama partial?

[Rastak]

partial, i think your having an argument with yourself... nobody is going to claim that Aaron Rodgers is the best QB ever. he is just finishing up his ROOKIE YEAR, i dont care how many years or decades he has been practicing and holding a clipboard, he is a GREEN ROOKIE. this year he has either met people's expectations or exceeded them by a bit. He's had a fine year.

Hopefully the next two or threee he will move into the discussion for top 8 QB's in the league. What's the big deal? Why are you bashing him right now, it makes no sense what so ever... admit it, hes played pretty well for a first year player. hopefully he'll continue progressing. if not, in 2-4 years we'll be moving on. Simple. Why all the drama partial?


No, he is a 4th year player. He has a huge advantage over a guy like Matt Ryan, having been through multiple training camps and many practice reps. He also had some live NFL game snaps.

I like the year he's had but don't paint him as a rookie just out of college because he most certainly isn't.

[Gunakor]

partial, i think your having an argument with yourself... nobody is going to claim that Aaron Rodgers is the best QB ever. he is just finishing up his ROOKIE YEAR, i dont care how many years or decades he has been practicing and holding a clipboard, he is a GREEN ROOKIE. this year he has either met people's expectations or exceeded them by a bit. He's had a fine year.

Hopefully the next two or threee he will move into the discussion for top 8 QB's in the league. What's the big deal? Why are you bashing him right now, it makes no sense what so ever... admit it, hes played pretty well for a first year player. hopefully he'll continue progressing. if not, in 2-4 years we'll be moving on. Simple. Why all the drama partial?


No, he is a 4th year player. He has a huge advantage over a guy like Matt Ryan, having been through multiple training camps and many practice reps. He also had some live NFL game snaps.

I like the year he's had but don't paint him as a rookie just out of college because he most certainly isn't.

I agree with both of you actually. Yes, he does have an advantage over a rookie starter fresh out of college such as Matt Ryan. That said, he is not a veteran either IMO. One must remember that this is his first year starting, and that there are things about football at this level that you cannot learn in training camp or from the sidelines. It's comes from experience playing, and in that regard Rodgers is still in his first year.

[BF4MVP]

Tom Brady Yes
Peyton Manning Yes
Ben Roethlisberger Yes
Jay Cutler No
Drew Brees Yes
Eli Manning No
Tony Romo Yes at this point, but I think Rodgers could pass him as early as next year...
Carson Palmer Hasn't been good since '05 so no...
Matt Ryan No (The Falcons have had a nice season, but Ryan's not better than Rodgers..)
Donovan McNabb Yes
Philip Rivers Yes
Kurt Warner Yes
Brett Favre Hell no (He's the best I've ever seen, but certainly not this year..Rodgers wins right now by a fairly wide margin..)
Jake Delhomme Hell no
Vince Young Hell no (Are you freaking kidding me?)
Jason Campbell No
Chad Pennington No
Jeff Garcia No

"Yes" means I think he's better than Rodgers. "No" means I do not.

[HarveyWallbangers]

My take:

QBs that I like more than Rodgers long-term--which is really most important:

Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Tony Romo, Ben Roethlisberger, Jay Cutler, Eli Manning

Young QBs that I like as much as Rodgers, but I'm not willing to say I'd take them over Rodgers at this point:

Matt Ryan, Philip Rivers, Matt Cassel, Matt Schaub, Brady Quinn

Carson Palmer has a very serious injury, and it remains to be seen what will happen to him.

That means I like 7 QBs above Rodgers long-term. I also like 5 other young QBs enough that I could see them being better than Rodgers. That means I see him as a top 8-12 QB long-term. Eli was a bit iffy--as I think he's a little overrated because of the Giants success.

[Rastak]

I have to admit I was very very impressed with Ryan yesterday. He really get's the ball out of the quickly and on target. Very poised. His fakes are outstanding.


I do like Rodgers, I'm not dissing him for sure. He's had a great year.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I have to admit I was very very impressed with Ryan yesterday. He really get's the ball out of the quickly and on target. Very poised. His fakes are outstanding.

I do like Rodgers, I'm not dissing him for sure. He's had a great year.

Totally fair. Considering it's his true rookie year, he's probably had a more impressive year. Of course, Rodgers wasn't just starting for the first time. He had to deal with the fallout from the Favre saga. It would have been very easy for him to cave to the pressure. Imagine how terrible this year would have been for the Packers if Rodgers had been an epic failure? He gives us hope. Ryan is a bigger kid. Comparable arms. Rodgers has more mobility.

[Zool]

I have to admit I was very very impressed with Ryan yesterday. He really get's the ball out of the quickly and on target. Very poised. His fakes are outstanding.

I do like Rodgers, I'm not dissing him for sure. He's had a great year.

Totally fair. Considering it's his true rookie year, he's probably had a more impressive year. Of course, Rodgers wasn't just starting for the first time. He had to deal with the fallout from the Favre saga. It would have been very easy for him to cave to the pressure. Imagine how terrible this year would have been for the Packers if Rodgers had been an epic failure? He gives us hope. Ryan is a bigger kid. Comparable arms. Rodgers has more mobility.

Also, Rodgers has run the scout team in practice the last 3 years not the Packers O.

[KYPack]

Tom Brady Yes
Peyton Manning Yes
Ben Roethlisberger Yes
Jay Cutler No
Drew Brees Yes
Eli Manning No
Tony Romo Yes at this point, but I think Rodgers could pass him as early as next year...
Carson Palmer Hasn't been good since '05 so no...
Matt Ryan No (The Falcons have had a nice season, but Ryan's not better than Rodgers..)
Donovan McNabb Yes
Philip Rivers Yes
Kurt Warner Yes
Brett Favre Hell no (He's the best I've ever seen, but certainly not this year..Rodgers wins right now by a fairly wide margin..)
Jake Delhomme Hell no
Vince Young Hell no (Are you freaking kidding me?)
Jason Campbell No
Chad Pennington No
Jeff Garcia No

"Yes" means I think he's better than Rodgers. "No" means I do not.

BF I'll go after you and Harv in this one.

Matt Ryan, yeah, I'd take him over AR & I really like AR.
Ryan is the best Rookie QB I've ever seen. Big Ben was the winner there, but Rayn is a special guy. Watch tape on that kid, he's a big thing.

Eli is better than most on here think.

Brady? Well sure. But what if he's over? That Civil War doc he went to seems to have torn up his knee.

Cassell isn't on anybodies list. Would you trade AR for Matt Cassell?

I'd put AR in with the 3 "young guns" Cutler, Rivers and AR have a lot of years ahead of 'em. Both are rated above Aaron, but I'd keep ARod for his head. He stays calm. Rivers and Cutler have all the talent in the world, it's a tough call.

Kurt Warner over AR? Based on this year's play probably, but KW is putting out on the 16th green. His career is almost over. You have to evaluate Garcia, Favre and Warner differently. All 3 of 'em will probably be out of the league in 2010.

Romo? The media darling. He's been off the wall for quite awhile now. I think he's good, but I can't tell if he'll put that team over or not. I am pissed he's got a chance to do it.

Rodgers the 19th QB?

That's utter bullshit.

I'd buy Harve's evaluation.

8-12th QB with a shot at the top someday.

[Partial]

You guys are so funny. This is just laughable. HOMERS!!

To your average packer rat he is a top 5 QB in the league!

Do you realize how many "lol" moments YOU'VE caused me (and everyone else) reading this thread?

I think the only FACT here is that AR has yet to have a defining moment where he's put the team on his back and got the big one. There are a million reasons for that and we can ride that around in circles all day long probably.

I mean... Vince Young... ??? Really?

The scouts article gave you a decent chance to ride its coattails to a point but you fucked it up like 4 different times now ...

I'd say quit while you're ahead but I'm not so sure that applies here ... 8-)

Vince Young isn't getting any respect here. He played great as a rookie (although not statistiaclly speaking from a QB perspective, but he was a winner), and had a solid sophomore campaign.

Let's not forget his wins were in the AFC South on a rebuilding Titans team (took him with 3rd pick) against the mighty Colts coming off a super bowl victory, and the Jaguars which was one of the best teams in the NFL the past two years.

Young is a proven winner in this league. Rodgers is not yet, so I don't understand how this can be a bad argument.

[Partial]

You guys are so funny. This is just laughable. HOMERS!!

To your average packer rat he is a top 5 QB in the league!

No, but he's a lot closer than you'd give him credit for.

I'd say he's 10-12 at this point. Certainly not bottom third in the NFL as your argument makes him out to be.

I put him in the 12 to 15 range for YOU last week. This is what NFL scouts think.

He played fine for his first season as a starter. Now he has to be considered a veteran. If he continues to play average next year, they should give Brohm a fair shot at the spot.

[Partial]

Rodgers is much better than 19th.

In your opinion, he is. In the Scouts' opinion, he is not. In my opinion, he is between 12 and 15.

I think he's the players he's going to be and I'm not super satisfied with that.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Vince Young isn't getting any respect here. He played great as a rookie (although not statistiaclly speaking from a QB perspective, but he was a winner), and had a solid sophomore campaign.

You can have his "solid" sophomore campaign (9 TDs, 17 interceptions). I'll take Kerry Collins over that any day.

[Partial]

Vince Young isn't getting any respect here. He played great as a rookie (although not statistiaclly speaking from a QB perspective, but he was a winner), and had a solid sophomore campaign.

You can have his "solid" sophomore campaign (9 TDs, 17 interceptions). I'll take Kerry Collins over that any day.

Well, clearly you're alone on that one because Bud Adams went on record last week saying Young will be the starter going forward next year.

[dissident94]

Well here is my list of young Qbs that are better than Rodgers

Cutler
Cassel- He is bigger stronger, more mobile
Rivers- not even close.
Rothlesburger
Ryan
Romo


I believe all of these guys will be better long term than Rodgers. If Rodgers wasn't a Packer many of the suppoters wouldn't think that much of him.

He is Ok. He has potential to be borderline probowl career or be Joey Harrington. Can't tell from one year.

Oh he is not a rookie, wait untill Ryan plays a few more years. don't dismiss what he has done as a true rookie. That guy will be solid for years to come

[Rastak]

Vince Young isn't getting any respect here. He played great as a rookie (although not statistiaclly speaking from a QB perspective, but he was a winner), and had a solid sophomore campaign.

You can have his "solid" sophomore campaign (9 TDs, 17 interceptions). I'll take Kerry Collins over that any day.

Well, clearly you're alone on that one because Bud Adams went on record last week saying Young will be the starter going forward next year.


If he's stating that now he's kind of an idiot.

[Guiness]

I like the thread - all the mudslinging aside.

A couple of shoo-ins - P. Manning, Brees.

I agree with KY about the old boys club...unless you were talking about next year only, KW, Favre and Garcia are ruled out. Two years max out of any of these guys, no matter how they're playing now.

Brady - yes. Even if the road is long, he should come back from the knee injury, and with his game it doesn't matter if he loses 2 steps. OTOH Palmer - no - we already know he doesn't seem to be coming back.

VY - not a chance, we don't know where his head is.

Cutler, Roethlisberger - yes to both, because they're young, and better than him right now...but I don't know that Rodger won't catch them.

Eli and Rivers - a couple of really interesting guys with high ceilings...but I just don't know what to make of those guys week to week.

Ryan is probably a yes - I like what little I've seen of him.

[BF4MVP]

If he continues to play average next year, they should give Brohm a fair shot at the spot.
3400 yards 23 TDs and 12 INTs in 14 games is "average"? I disagree...

[Patler]

What has Romo accomplished? Some good in-season stats on a very good team (Wasn't the whole offense on the Pro-Bowl team last year?) Other than that, nothing.

[Rastak]

What has Romo accomplished? Some good in-season stats on a very good team (Wasn't the whole offense on the Pro-Bowl team last year?) Other than that, nothing.


Are you doing a Romo-Rodgers match up here?

[Bretsky]

What has Romo accomplished? Some good in-season stats on a very good team (Wasn't the whole offense on the Pro-Bowl team last year?) Other than that, nothing.


Carrie Underwood
Jessica Simpson :idea: :!:

[digitaldean]

Vince Young isn't getting any respect here. He played great as a rookie (although not statistiaclly speaking from a QB perspective, but he was a winner), and had a solid sophomore campaign.

You can have his "solid" sophomore campaign (9 TDs, 17 interceptions). I'll take Kerry Collins over that any day.

Well, clearly you're alone on that one because Bud Adams went on record last week saying Young will be the starter going forward next year.

Uh, no Capt. Delusional he's not the only one on the analysis of VY.

Yes, when you have that many millions invested in him, Adams isn't going to throw him to the curb. Besides, he isn't going to publicly acknowledge any issues he may have over Young's whininess before he had the whole Nashville PD scouring the area for him.

Young's soph. season sucked. Could be a blip, but it's not a good omen toward the future. He has some growing up to do. His rookie season, he definitely made plays and was justifiably lauded for it. This year HE DID NOT but someone else did with the exact same talent pool. He heard the boos from the home crowd then had to run home to mommy and sulk like a baby.

[digitaldean]

What has Romo accomplished? Some good in-season stats on a very good team (Wasn't the whole offense on the Pro-Bowl team last year?) Other than that, nothing.


Carrie Underwood
Jessica Simpson :idea: :!:

:rs:

[PackerTimer]

Watching the game tonight I just don't see anything that says Rodgers is anything but a top 15 QB at least. He might be around number 10 or so.

The only guys I see as clearly better are:
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Drew Brees
Donovan McNabb
Ben Roethlisberger
Jay Cutler
Eli Manning
Tony Romo

The rest are a toss up for me. But there is no way he's not in the top 15 at least.

[BallHawk]

Young is a proven winner in this league.

Um....what? Proven winner? What has Vince Young done in his career? He has a -10 TD to INT career ratio and a career QB rating of under 70. Proven winner? That's laughable.

And before you counter with "he took his team to the playoffs" I'll just state that the Titans took Vince Young to the playoffs. You put any average QB on the 2007 Titans and they make the playoffs.

[Bretsky]

Watching the game tonight I just don't see anything that says Rodgers is anything but a top 15 QB at least. He might be around number 10 or so.

The only guys I see as clearly better are:
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Drew Brees
Donovan McNabb
Ben Roethlisberger
Jay Cutler
Eli Manning
Tony Romo

The rest are a toss up for me. But there is no way he's not in the top 15 at least.


I'd put him in the 12-14 range; I'd certainly put Philip Rivers up in that group at this point. He should be in the Pro Bowl this year.

Long term I'm not sure Rivers belongs in that group........but I'm not sure Romo does either

[digitaldean]

The article is loaded with great quotes. It really is a great read for the homers. Seriously, tons of famous NFL talent evaluators, including Bill Walsh (Steve Young, Joe Montana) saying they think he is maxed out or near maxed out, etc.

Here's a quote from Steve Young TODAY about Rodgers performance:
ESPN's Steve Young and Jaworski rated Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers' first year as a starter a success.

"I believe he played very well," Young said in the pregame show. "I thought he played much better than I thought he would. I knew he was a good quarterback between the 30s, but he has put a lot of points on the board."

Jaworski gave a grade of B-plus to Rodgers.

"Certainly you can find some things wrong, his inability, late in games, to take over and guide his team to victory," Jaworski said. "But overall, the body of his work has been very good, considering the circumstances he had."
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/36611424.html

[Partial]

If he continues to play average next year, they should give Brohm a fair shot at the spot.
3400 yards 23 TDs and 12 INTs in 14 games is "average"? I disagree...

Dude, stats don't mean everything. His performance has been average, otherwise we'd score a hell of a lot more points with our potent offense and have a better record.

Look at the stats of every QB in the NFL. I bet that is right in the middle, aka average.

[Partial]

Young is a proven winner in this league.

Um....what? Proven winner? What has Vince Young done in his career? He has a -10 TD to INT career ratio and a career QB rating of under 70. Proven winner? That's laughable.

And before you counter with "he took his team to the playoffs" I'll just state that the Titans took Vince Young to the playoffs. You put any average QB on the 2007 Titans and they make the playoffs.

Impossible to judge ^. One could argue the same about the '08 Packers.

[Gunakor]

If he continues to play average next year, they should give Brohm a fair shot at the spot.
3400 yards 23 TDs and 12 INTs in 14 games is "average"? I disagree...

Dude, stats don't mean everything. His performance has been average, otherwise we'd score a hell of a lot more points with our potent offense and have a better record.

Look at the stats of every QB in the NFL. I bet that is right in the middle, aka average.

It's like 10th-12th in most catagories, which is good. Not merely average, but not great either. I'd have to imagine his stats would look even better if McCarthy didn't take the ball out of his hands at times during the game. I think he's even BETTER than his stats.

[BallHawk]

Young is a proven winner in this league.

Um....what? Proven winner? What has Vince Young done in his career? He has a -10 TD to INT career ratio and a career QB rating of under 70. Proven winner? That's laughable.

And before you counter with "he took his team to the playoffs" I'll just state that the Titans took Vince Young to the playoffs. You put any average QB on the 2007 Titans and they make the playoffs.

Impossible to judge ^. One could argue the same about the '08 Packers.

And then that argument would be refuted by pointing out our defensive incompetence.

I'll give you that VY has done more in his career than Aaron Rodgers, albeit with one more season of playing time. But to call VY a "proven winner" is laughable.

[Partial]

Young is a proven winner in this league.

Um....what? Proven winner? What has Vince Young done in his career? He has a -10 TD to INT career ratio and a career QB rating of under 70. Proven winner? That's laughable.

And before you counter with "he took his team to the playoffs" I'll just state that the Titans took Vince Young to the playoffs. You put any average QB on the 2007 Titans and they make the playoffs.

Impossible to judge ^. One could argue the same about the '08 Packers.

And then that argument would be refuted by pointing out our defensive incompetence.

I'll give you that VY has done more in his career than Aaron Rodgers, albeit with one more season of playing time. But to call VY a "proven winner" is laughable.

Look at his record dating back to high school and I think you'll jump on board. A-Rod didn't even get offered a D1 scholarship. VY was offered to play at a top 5 college team. Dude won a national championship, won rookie of the year, and took a team to the playoffs.

I can't fault the guy for having some issues. I also can't fault the guy for having a down year. They happen. He's still very young. He came out after his junior year, and this is only his third year.

[Bossman641]

If he continues to play average next year, they should give Brohm a fair shot at the spot.
3400 yards 23 TDs and 12 INTs in 14 games is "average"? I disagree...

Dude, stats don't mean everything. His performance has been average, otherwise we'd score a hell of a lot more points with our potent offense and have a better record.

Look at the stats of every QB in the NFL. I bet that is right in the middle, aka average.

It's like 10th-12th in most catagories, which is good. Not merely average, but not great either. I'd have to imagine his stats would look even better if McCarthy didn't take the ball out of his hands at times during the game. I think he's even BETTER than his stats.

Rodgers is 6th in TD's after tonight behind Rivers at 32, Brees at 30, and Romo-Warner-Manning at 26.

Passer rating before tonight was 7th.

[BallHawk]

Look at his record dating back to high school and I think you'll jump on board. A-Rod didn't even get offered a D1 scholarship. VY was offered to play at a top 5 college team. Dude won a national championship, won rookie of the year, and took a team to the playoffs.

I can't fault the guy for having some issues. I also can't fault the guy for having a down year. They happen. He's still very young. He came out after his junior year, and this is only his third year.

I don't give a damn if A-Rod wasn't offered a D1 Scholarship. Favre was offered only one scholarship (Southern Miss) and that was to play as a DB. That doesn't mean shit in the NFL. And of course VY was a highly recruited prospect he's a physical beast. 6'5, big arm, and fast. That's all you need to say. And don't make me list the QBs that did nothing in the NFL that won a national championship.

VY is sitting on the bench behind Kerry Collins. That's all there is to stay. He's there for a reason.

[dabootski]

Young is a proven winner in this league.

Um....what? Proven winner? What has Vince Young done in his career? He has a -10 TD to INT career ratio and a career QB rating of under 70. Proven winner? That's laughable.

And before you counter with "he took his team to the playoffs" I'll just state that the Titans took Vince Young to the playoffs. You put any average QB on the 2007 Titans and they make the playoffs.

Impossible to judge ^. One could argue the same about the '08 Packers.

And then that argument would be refuted by pointing out our defensive incompetence.

I'll give you that VY has done more in his career than Aaron Rodgers, albeit with one more season of playing time. But to call VY a "proven winner" is laughable.

Look at his record dating back to high school and I think you'll jump on board. A-Rod didn't even get offered a D1 scholarship. VY was offered to play at a top 5 college team. Dude won a national championship, won rookie of the year, and took a team to the playoffs.

I can't fault the guy for having some issues. I also can't fault the guy for having a down year. They happen. He's still very young. He came out after his junior year, and this is only his third year.

yet you will relentlessly rip rodgers for not being a hall of fame caliber QB after his first year starting. imagine if rodgers is having a "down year"!!! talk about upside...

you never cease to blow me away with your stupidity.

[Bossman641]

Young is a proven winner in this league.

Um....what? Proven winner? What has Vince Young done in his career? He has a -10 TD to INT career ratio and a career QB rating of under 70. Proven winner? That's laughable.

And before you counter with "he took his team to the playoffs" I'll just state that the Titans took Vince Young to the playoffs. You put any average QB on the 2007 Titans and they make the playoffs.

Impossible to judge ^. One could argue the same about the '08 Packers.

And then that argument would be refuted by pointing out our defensive incompetence.

I'll give you that VY has done more in his career than Aaron Rodgers, albeit with one more season of playing time. But to call VY a "proven winner" is laughable.

Look at his record dating back to high school and I think you'll jump on board. A-Rod didn't even get offered a D1 scholarship. VY was offered to play at a top 5 college team. Dude won a national championship, won rookie of the year, and took a team to the playoffs.

I can't fault the guy for having some issues. I also can't fault the guy for having a down year. They happen. He's still very young. He came out after his junior year, and this is only his third year.

yet you will relentlessly rip rodgers for not being a hall of fame caliber QB after his first year starting. imagine if rodgers is having a "down year"!!! talk about upside...

you never cease to blow me away with your stupidity.

When Partial controls the conversation he can bend the rules however he wants.

[cpk1994]

Scouts also thought Mandarich was a can't miss prospect, Driver would never make it, Brady sucked, Ryan Leaf was unstoppable, Marques Colston wasn't good, Reggie Bush would light up the league like he did at USC...

I think you get my point

It's a lot harder evaluating a college player versus someone who has played in the ranks of the NFL, don't you say? Once you see and have footage of how someone matches up with real world NFL players, its a heck of a lot easier to judge,

Do you agree?

I agree to a point. 14 starts and a few mop-up appearances prior to that is not enough to project a career, especially for a guy like Rodgers who appears bright, hard-working, and willing to learn. He has enough playing time to where we can critique where he is at right now, but not enough for us to point out his weak tendencies or the things he will always struggle with.

In the article, how the hell did scouts rank VY ahead of Rodgers as of right now? Really? They'd rather have the guy who has contemplated quitting football multiple times and asked to be taken out of the game? Maybe in the future when he rededicates himself, but right now, no way.

Work ethic aside, give me Young any day of the week over Rodgers. You can learn athleticism.Concrete proof that you are indeed an ignorant troll. Only one of those would take Young over Rodgers.

[SkinBasket]

Look at his record dating back to high school and I think you'll jump on board. A-Rod didn't even get offered a D1 scholarship. VY was offered to play at a top 5 college team. Dude won a national championship, won rookie of the year, and took a team to the playoffs.

Look at what Rodgers did from age 3-6, and I think you'll change your tune.

Partial, you're not even grasping at straws here anymore, you've fallen into the chasm and now your just singing lunatic power ballads as you drop gleefully into the abyss of stupidity.

[Zool]

Look at his record dating back to high school and I think you'll jump on board. A-Rod didn't even get offered a D1 scholarship. VY was offered to play at a top 5 college team. Dude won a national championship, won rookie of the year, and took a team to the playoffs.

Look at what Rodgers did from age 3-6, and I think you'll change your tune.

Partial, you're not even grasping at straws here anymore, you've fallen into the chasm and now your just singing lunatic power ballads as you drop gleefully into the abyss of stupidity.

I dunno Skin he might have a point. Look at Andre Ware. That guy was an absolute stud at a D1 college and won the Heisman. I assume he put up HOF numbers at the pro level in Detroit. I mean he had to right? He played with Barry Sanders.

Maybe I'm thinking of Dave Klingler? Certainly Gino Torretta is in the pro football HOF right now. I mean how could he not be?

Favre's dad had to get him signed to a D1 school and that guy had one shitty NFL career. Its a classic case of D1 school recruitment = HOF NFL career. If Texas, Ohio State and Miami arent knocking at your door, you will suck for all time. Just ask Warren Moon.

[ThunderDan]

I can't believe that Eli Manning is rated above Rodgers.

The 2008 season is the first time in his career where his passer rating is going to be above 80.

His career stats are:
72 games 1,265/2,265 for 55.8% 14,504 yards or 201.4 yards per game 98 touchdowns 74 interceptions 76.1 passer rating

Giants fans were calling for his head in 2007.Even playing out of his mind the last 6 weeks of the regular season in 2007 his passer rating was 73.9 for the year.

[Partial]

Look at his record dating back to high school and I think you'll jump on board. A-Rod didn't even get offered a D1 scholarship. VY was offered to play at a top 5 college team. Dude won a national championship, won rookie of the year, and took a team to the playoffs.

Look at what Rodgers did from age 3-6, and I think you'll change your tune.

Partial, you're not even grasping at straws here anymore, you've fallen into the chasm and now your just singing lunatic power ballads as you drop gleefully into the abyss of stupidity.

I dunno Skin he might have a point. Look at Andre Ware. That guy was an absolute stud at a D1 college and won the Heisman. I assume he put up HOF numbers at the pro level in Detroit. I mean he had to right? He played with Barry Sanders.

Maybe I'm thinking of Dave Klingler? Certainly Gino Torretta is in the pro football HOF right now. I mean how could he not be?

Favre's dad had to get him signed to a D1 school and that guy had one shitty NFL career. Its a classic case of D1 school recruitment = HOF NFL career. If Texas, Ohio State and Miami arent knocking at your door, you will suck for all time. Just ask Warren Moon.

Nice one wise guy. The difference is Young actually WON in the NFL, and was dominant for a rookie QB. He was a winner, like Matt Ryan. His sophomore year, after winning rookie of the year, he followed it up by guiding his team to the playoffs.

Proven winner. He has had nothing but success, then got hurt, and with his injury exposed some mental problems. He's never been a malcontent or a trouble maker, so I can look past his off the field problems.. for now at least.

[Partial]

I can't believe that Eli Manning is rated above Rodgers.

The 2008 season is the first time in his career where his passer rating is going to be above 80.

His career stats are:
72 games 1,265/2,265 for 55.8% 14,504 yards or 201.4 yards per game 98 touchdowns 74 interceptions 76.1 passer rating

Giants fans were calling for his head in 2007.Even playing out of his mind the last 6 weeks of the regular season in 2007 his passer rating was 73.9 for the year.

Eli Manning is money. He is a young up-and-comer. H played the perfect pats as well as anybody, then won three road games in the playoffs than beat the Perfect Pats in the rematch. That is a hell of a 5 game stint at QB.

He doesn't have anyone to throw the ball to this year. Plax has been banged up all year. He's carrying a team on his back. That team is his.

[cheesner]

If he continues to play average next year, they should give Brohm a fair shot at the spot.
3400 yards 23 TDs and 12 INTs in 14 games is "average"? I disagree...

Dude, stats don't mean everything. His performance has been average, otherwise we'd score a hell of a lot more points with our potent offense and have a better record.

Look at the stats of every QB in the NFL. I bet that is right in the middle, aka average.

It's like 10th-12th in most catagories, which is good. Not merely average, but not great either. I'd have to imagine his stats would look even better if McCarthy didn't take the ball out of his hands at times during the game. I think he's even BETTER than his stats.

Or if AR had even an average OL and/or a running game to work with. He does have a stable of great receivers, but the lack of the first 2 is a bigger impact than the latter.

[cheesner]

Look at his record dating back to high school and I think you'll jump on board. A-Rod didn't even get offered a D1 scholarship. VY was offered to play at a top 5 college team. Dude won a national championship, won rookie of the year, and took a team to the playoffs.

Look at what Rodgers did from age 3-6, and I think you'll change your tune.

Partial, you're not even grasping at straws here anymore, you've fallen into the chasm and now your just singing lunatic power ballads as you drop gleefully into the abyss of stupidity.

I dunno Skin he might have a point. Look at Andre Ware. That guy was an absolute stud at a D1 college and won the Heisman. I assume he put up HOF numbers at the pro level in Detroit. I mean he had to right? He played with Barry Sanders.

Maybe I'm thinking of Dave Klingler? Certainly Gino Torretta is in the pro football HOF right now. I mean how could he not be?

Favre's dad had to get him signed to a D1 school and that guy had one shitty NFL career. Its a classic case of D1 school recruitment = HOF NFL career. If Texas, Ohio State and Miami arent knocking at your door, you will suck for all time. Just ask Warren Moon.

Nice one wise guy. The difference is Young actually WON in the NFL, and was dominant for a rookie QB. He was a winner, like Matt Ryan. His sophomore year, after winning rookie of the year, he followed it up by guiding his team to the playoffs.

Proven winner. He has had nothing but success, then got hurt, and with his injury exposed some mental problems. He's never been a malcontent or a trouble maker, so I can look past his off the field problems.. for now at least.

Career Stats


Season Team Passing Rushing Fumbles
G GS Comp Att Pct Yds Avg TD Int Sck SckY Rate Att Yds Avg TD FUM Lost
2008 Tennessee Titans 2 1 13 23 56.5 164 7.1 1 2 1 3 57.2 3 2 0.7 0 1 0
2007 Tennessee Titans 15 15 238 382 62.3 2,546 6.7 9 17 25 157 71.1 93 395 4.2 3 10 3
2006 Tennessee Titans 15 13 184 357 51.5 2,199 6.2 12 13 25 129 66.7 83 552 6.7 7 12 3
TOTAL 435 762 57.1 4,909 6.4 22 32 51 289 68.6 179 949 5.3 10 23 6

VY looked good at times, and looked poor at others. I would certainly not call him dominant. Overall I would call him a bit below average. He has huge upside with amazing skills. He is raw, so there was hope that he would develop into a dominate QB. The emotional problems, however, may hinder that development and should detract from his status as a QB. The single most important factor of a QB, IMHO, is leadership. Being a suicidal quitter is not going to inspire confidence by his teammates. I do hope the kid pulls it together, he can be something special.

[sharpe1027]

Grossman is money. He is a young up-and-commer. He won three big games in the playoffs. That is a hell of a 3 game stint at QB.

He didn't have anyone to throw the ball to in the Superbowl, so the loss was not his fault. He had no WRs all year. He carried that team on his back. That team was his (and still should be).

fixed...or maybe:



Trent Dilfer is money. He is a proven commodity. H played the dangerous giants (who steam rolled through the playoffs) as well as anybody, before that he won three big playoff games, two of them on the road. That is a hell of a 4 game stint at QB.

He didn't have anyone to throw the ball to that year. He's carried that team on his back. That team was his.

[gbgary]

don't know about 19th but a ranking in the middle third of the league seems right to me for a guy of his experience. he's only gonna get better.

[Partial]

Scouts also thought Mandarich was a can't miss prospect, Driver would never make it, Brady sucked, Ryan Leaf was unstoppable, Marques Colston wasn't good, Reggie Bush would light up the league like he did at USC...

I think you get my point

It's a lot harder evaluating a college player versus someone who has played in the ranks of the NFL, don't you say? Once you see and have footage of how someone matches up with real world NFL players, its a heck of a lot easier to judge,

Do you agree?

I agree to a point. 14 starts and a few mop-up appearances prior to that is not enough to project a career, especially for a guy like Rodgers who appears bright, hard-working, and willing to learn. He has enough playing time to where we can critique where he is at right now, but not enough for us to point out his weak tendencies or the things he will always struggle with.

In the article, how the hell did scouts rank VY ahead of Rodgers as of right now? Really? They'd rather have the guy who has contemplated quitting football multiple times and asked to be taken out of the game? Maybe in the future when he rededicates himself, but right now, no way.

Work ethic aside, give me Young any day of the week over Rodgers. You can learn athleticism.Concrete proof that you are indeed an ignorant troll. Only one of those would take Young over Rodgers.

Right. I'm sure I'm the only person in the world who would take someone who has never had a losing record, won awards, and took a team to the playoffs over this

[sharpe1027]

Right. I'm sure I'm the only person in the world who would take someone who has never had a losing record, won awards, and took a team to the playoffs over this

Spin doctor.

I'm sure I'm the only person in the world who would not take a QB that is currently benched in favor of an over-the-hill QB that has never been anything but average. :roll:

[cpk1994]

Scouts also thought Mandarich was a can't miss prospect, Driver would never make it, Brady sucked, Ryan Leaf was unstoppable, Marques Colston wasn't good, Reggie Bush would light up the league like he did at USC...

I think you get my point

It's a lot harder evaluating a college player versus someone who has played in the ranks of the NFL, don't you say? Once you see and have footage of how someone matches up with real world NFL players, its a heck of a lot easier to judge,

Do you agree?

I agree to a point. 14 starts and a few mop-up appearances prior to that is not enough to project a career, especially for a guy like Rodgers who appears bright, hard-working, and willing to learn. He has enough playing time to where we can critique where he is at right now, but not enough for us to point out his weak tendencies or the things he will always struggle with.

In the article, how the hell did scouts rank VY ahead of Rodgers as of right now? Really? They'd rather have the guy who has contemplated quitting football multiple times and asked to be taken out of the game? Maybe in the future when he rededicates himself, but right now, no way.

Work ethic aside, give me Young any day of the week over Rodgers. You can learn athleticism.Concrete proof that you are indeed an ignorant troll. Only one of those would take Young over Rodgers.

Right. I'm sure I'm the only person in the world who would take someone who has never had a losing record, won awards, and took a team to the playoffs over thisPLease. Young is a BACKUP becuase he has emotional problems and is sitting at home sulking while mommy yells at everyone to quit picking on her baby, while Rodgers is starting every game and is going to pile up close to 4000 yards after having to put up with Favre bullshit temper tantrums. We know you hate Rodgers and continue to bash him and that is the ONLY reason you would take Young.

[Partial]

Scouts also thought Mandarich was a can't miss prospect, Driver would never make it, Brady sucked, Ryan Leaf was unstoppable, Marques Colston wasn't good, Reggie Bush would light up the league like he did at USC...

I think you get my point

It's a lot harder evaluating a college player versus someone who has played in the ranks of the NFL, don't you say? Once you see and have footage of how someone matches up with real world NFL players, its a heck of a lot easier to judge,

Do you agree?

I agree to a point. 14 starts and a few mop-up appearances prior to that is not enough to project a career, especially for a guy like Rodgers who appears bright, hard-working, and willing to learn. He has enough playing time to where we can critique where he is at right now, but not enough for us to point out his weak tendencies or the things he will always struggle with.

In the article, how the hell did scouts rank VY ahead of Rodgers as of right now? Really? They'd rather have the guy who has contemplated quitting football multiple times and asked to be taken out of the game? Maybe in the future when he rededicates himself, but right now, no way.

Work ethic aside, give me Young any day of the week over Rodgers. You can learn athleticism.Concrete proof that you are indeed an ignorant troll. Only one of those would take Young over Rodgers.

Right. I'm sure I'm the only person in the world who would take someone who has never had a losing record, won awards, and took a team to the playoffs over thisPLease. Young is a BACKUP becuase he has emotional problems and is sitting at home sulking while mommy yells at everyone to quit picking on her baby, while Rodgers is starting every game and is going to pile up close to 4000 yards after having to put up with Favre bullshit temper tantrums. We know you hate Rodgers and continue to bash him and that is the ONLY reason you would take Young.

I don't hate Rodgers. If you could read and comprehend that some people look at things with G&G goggles, and some look through objective lens without any false intentions, that he is playing average.

Yes.. Young is the backup right now. He was the starter this year and had some emotional trouble. They are committed to Young moving forward, and the only reason he isn't starting now is for the sake of continuity. Young himself said he wants to be starting and is ready to play.

I don't see what is appropriate about picking on a person who has depression. It's not his fault. It's something he has to work through.

I would take Young because:
- He is bigger
- He is faster
- He is stronger
- He is more athletic
- He is a proven winner
- He has a good enough arm

Rodgers has a more powerful and more accurate arm, but give me the guy with superstar potential over the guy with maybe around the 10th best in the league potential. Rodgers doesn't have the raw skill set that Young has, and that is something you cannot learn.

Rodgers may be the better passing quarterback right now, but Young has gotten it done with passing, running, etc. He has shown a knack for making the big play to WIN games. He single-handedly beat the mighty Trojans, he was dominant as a ROOKIE (re: not average to slightly above average as a 4th year player), and while his passing numbers were not great his sophomore year, he still made plenty of plays and carried his team to the playoffs.

I'm not bashing Rodgers here, but I'm sure you'll interpret it that way. VY is a rare specimen, and that is why he went top 3 in the draft. There is an obvious reason that ARod fell as far as he did. Young is a freak.

[Bretsky]

Young is a nut case; no way I want him as any part of my team right now

The word unreliable is the first thought that comes to mind
Erratic would be the second

[sharpe1027]

They are committed to Young moving forward, and the only reason he isn't starting now is for the sake of continuity. Young himself said he wants to be starting and is ready to play.


I bet he starts less than half their games next year.

[ThunderDan]

I can't believe that Eli Manning is rated above Rodgers.

The 2008 season is the first time in his career where his passer rating is going to be above 80.

His career stats are:
72 games 1,265/2,265 for 55.8% 14,504 yards or 201.4 yards per game 98 touchdowns 74 interceptions 76.1 passer rating

Giants fans were calling for his head in 2007.Even playing out of his mind the last 6 weeks of the regular season in 2007 his passer rating was 73.9 for the year.

Eli Manning is money. He is a young up-and-comer. H played the perfect pats as well as anybody, then won three road games in the playoffs than beat the Perfect Pats in the rematch. That is a hell of a 5 game stint at QB.

He doesn't have anyone to throw the ball to this year. Plax has been banged up all year. He's carrying a team on his back. That team is his.

If he has no one to throw the ball to why is passer rating this year the highest by far for his whole career?

Do you realize the Giants average 197 yards passing per game? They are averaging 158.9 yards per game runnning. That's less than a 40 yard difference.

The reason the Giants are winning has little to do with Manning and a hell of a lot more to do with the offensive line and running backs.

[Partial]

I can't believe that Eli Manning is rated above Rodgers.

The 2008 season is the first time in his career where his passer rating is going to be above 80.

His career stats are:
72 games 1,265/2,265 for 55.8% 14,504 yards or 201.4 yards per game 98 touchdowns 74 interceptions 76.1 passer rating

Giants fans were calling for his head in 2007.Even playing out of his mind the last 6 weeks of the regular season in 2007 his passer rating was 73.9 for the year.

Eli Manning is money. He is a young up-and-comer. H played the perfect pats as well as anybody, then won three road games in the playoffs than beat the Perfect Pats in the rematch. That is a hell of a 5 game stint at QB.

He doesn't have anyone to throw the ball to this year. Plax has been banged up all year. He's carrying a team on his back. That team is his.

If he has no one to throw the ball to why is passer rating this year the highest by far for his whole career?

Do you realize the Giants average 197 yards passing per game? They are averaging 158.9 yards per game runnning. That's less than a 40 yard difference.

The reason the Giants are winning has little to do with Manning and a hell of a lot more to do with the offensive line and running backs.

Would there running game be as effective with a journeyman back there? ROFL... how quick people forget. Dude is lights out throwing the ball imo. Took him awhile to grasp everything, but he is coming into his own now.

Who cares how many yards he passes for? The ideal offense NEVEr passes the rock imo.

[Zool]

Would there running game be as effective with a journeyman back there? ROFL... how quick people forget. Dude is lights out throwing the ball imo. Took him awhile to grasp everything, but he is coming into his own now.

Who cares how many yards he passes for? The ideal offense NEVEr passes the rock imo.

You are one crazy conundrum P, I'll give you that.

[Patler]

Partial, you are fascinated with the Jeff Georges of the world and fail to recognize the value of a Matt Hasselbeck.

[Partial]

Partial, you are fascinated with the Jeff Georges of the world and fail to recognize the value of a Matt Hasselbeck.

Are you kidding me? Hass is one of my favorite players and one of the best QBs in the NFL. Comparing Rodgers to Hass is foolish. Also, while a very good quarterback, he has never won a superbowl because he isn't a special playmaker back there.

Some of you guys ignore results and that bothers me. Vince Young has carried a team on his back and WON. Eli Manning has carried a team on his back and WON. Matt Hassellback has carried a team on his back and WON. Will Aaron? That remains to be seen, but to this point the answer is a resounding No.

[Zool]

Are you kidding me? Hass is one of my favorite players and one of the best QBs in the NFL. Comparing Rodgers to Hass is foolish. Also, while a very good quarterback, he has never won a superbowl because he isn't a special playmaker back there.

Some of you guys ignore results and that bothers me. Vince Young has carried a team on his back and WON. Eli Manning has carried a team on his back and WON. Matt Hassellback has carried a team on his back and WON. Will Aaron? That remains to be seen, but to this point the answer is a resounding No.


Took him awhile to grasp everything, but he is coming into his own now.

You give other QB's time but Rodgers gets none.

[Patler]

Partial, you are fascinated with the Jeff Georges of the world and fail to recognize the value of a Matt Hasselbeck.

Are you kidding me? Hass is one of my favorite players and one of the best QBs in the NFL. Comparing Rodgers to Hass is foolish. Also, while a very good quarterback, he has never won a superbowl because he isn't a special playmaker back there.

Some of you guys ignore results and that bothers me. Vince Young has carried a team on his back and WON. Eli Manning has carried a team on his back and WON. Matt Hassellback has carried a team on his back and WON. Will Aaron? That remains to be seen, but to this point the answer is a resounding No.

I wasn't really comparing Rodgers to Hasselback any more than I was comparing Vince Young to Jeff George. Or are you now admitting that Young is a Jeff George in the making? :lol:

I was just pointing out that you seem fascinated with the immense physical talent some guys possess, and value that over the more cerebral approach of others.

BUT....now that you mention it. There are some strong similarities between Rodgers' and Hasselbeck's early careers. Several years without playing, first year play showing promise but not consistency. Remember that Hasselbeck got benched in Seattle after becoming their starter. Both like to run a bit, etc.

[Patler]

Some of you guys ignore results and that bothers me. Vince Young has carried a team on his back and WON.


??????? "....carried a team on his back....." When was that? Certainly not in the NFL.

[Bossman641]

Partial, you are fascinated with the Jeff Georges of the world and fail to recognize the value of a Matt Hasselbeck.

Are you kidding me? Hass is one of my favorite players and one of the best QBs in the NFL. Comparing Rodgers to Hass is foolish. Also, while a very good quarterback, he has never won a superbowl because he isn't a special playmaker back there.

Some of you guys ignore results and that bothers me. Vince Young has carried a team on his back and WON. Eli Manning has carried a team on his back and WON. Matt Hassellback has carried a team on his back and WON. Will Aaron? That remains to be seen, but to this point the answer is a resounding No.

The Titans carried VY more than he carried them.

By your standards, Grossman carried the Bears to the SB right?

[3irty1]

Those scouts really don't like Hasselbeck; he didn't even make the list of people who got a single vote for being better than Rodgers. Does anyone else think that Hasselbeck is worse than VY, Jason Campbell, Chad Pennington, Jeff Garcia, Joe Flacco, David Garrard, Matt Schaub, Trent Edwards, Kyle Orton, Matt Leinart, JaMarcus Russell, Sage Rosenfels and Daunte Culpepper??????????????

[TennesseePackerBacker]

you're an idiot partial. you claim objectivity, but you're just turning in to another basher. if you think the team not winning this year is A-rod's fault you are too far gone to even reason with. so I wash my hands of you, and will ignore any further retarded comments like, VY is a winner, or, "going back to A-rod's highschool days you can just tell the kid is a loser". If you get beat out by back up Kerry Collins, you are NOT a winner. For you to even use the term "winner" is just absurd. It takes a team to win in football, not one player.

[Partial]

The Titans carried VY more than he carried them.

By your standards, Grossman carried the Bears to the SB right?

If I remember correctly, Young had 4 game winning plays in his rookie season, be them great passes, making some plays with his feet, etc. Because of this unique ability to make plays when the game was on the line, he earned a spot in the pro bowl... as a rookie... read: still has had far less experience in a complex offense than Rodgers.

Just like I'm sure the Colts typically win in spite of Peyton and they frequently carry him :lol:

Grossman led the league in games with a quarterback rating over 100+ that season according to Fox. Anyone want to verify that? I'm not saying he carried them, he was incredibly inconsistent but he flashed as a playmaker and certainly had his moments.

[Partial]

you're an idiot partial. you claim objectivity, but you're just turning in to another basher. if you think the team not winning this year is A-rod's fault you are too far gone to even reason with. so I wash my hands of you, and will ignore any further retarded comments like, VY is a winner, or, "going back to A-rod's highschool days you can just tell the kid is a loser". If you get beat out by back up Kerry Collins, you are NOT a winner. For you to even use the term "winner" is just absurd. It takes a team to win in football, not one player.

1. He beat out Kerry Collins. He then got hurt, and became depressed as a result of his injury. Within a week he made a public statement about how the whole story was blown out proportion, etc.

2. I blame the offense, and the defense. The team is horrendous. See my signature. My point in my crusade is that everyone here is so quick to blame the defense, but these past few weeks they haven't given up too many points. Meanwhile, the offense has been scoring 3-6 points in the second half for awhile, now.

3. VY carrying teams to the playoffs, national championships, and having high school success easily attribute to his ability to win.

[digitaldean]

you're an idiot partial. you claim objectivity, but you're just turning in to another basher. if you think the team not winning this year is A-rod's fault you are too far gone to even reason with. so I wash my hands of you, and will ignore any further retarded comments like, VY is a winner, or, "going back to A-rod's highschool days you can just tell the kid is a loser". If you get beat out by back up Kerry Collins, you are NOT a winner. For you to even use the term "winner" is just absurd. It takes a team to win in football, not one player.

1. He beat out Kerry Collins.


If VY was such an asset this season, why did Fisher leave Collins in and keep VY on the bench. If VY can inspire his team to victory, or better yet carry them, why, would Fisher not put him in.

Here's why....VY had a great first season. But when adversity struck and he was faltering, VY couldn't take the boos and folded like a house of cards. Then it took the Nashville PD to find him so he wouldn't do something stupid to himself.

He got hurt, Collins led them to victory and kept a hot hand. If VY was that much better or if Collins stunk that much VY would be in the lineup in a heartbeat.

[Partial]

you're an idiot partial. you claim objectivity, but you're just turning in to another basher. if you think the team not winning this year is A-rod's fault you are too far gone to even reason with. so I wash my hands of you, and will ignore any further retarded comments like, VY is a winner, or, "going back to A-rod's highschool days you can just tell the kid is a loser". If you get beat out by back up Kerry Collins, you are NOT a winner. For you to even use the term "winner" is just absurd. It takes a team to win in football, not one player.

1. He beat out Kerry Collins.


If VY was such an asset this season, why did Fisher leave Collins in and keep VY on the bench. If VY can inspire his team to victory, or better yet carry them, why, would Fisher not put him in.

Here's why....VY had a great first season. But when adversity struck and he was faltering, VY couldn't take the boos and folded like a house of cards. Then it took the Nashville PD to find him so he wouldn't do something stupid to himself.

He got hurt, Collins led them to victory and kept a hot hand. If VY was that much better or if Collins stunk that much VY would be in the lineup in a heartbeat.

Agreed.

[TennesseePackerBacker]

you're an idiot partial. you claim objectivity, but you're just turning in to another basher. if you think the team not winning this year is A-rod's fault you are too far gone to even reason with. so I wash my hands of you, and will ignore any further retarded comments like, VY is a winner, or, "going back to A-rod's highschool days you can just tell the kid is a loser". If you get beat out by back up Kerry Collins, you are NOT a winner. For you to even use the term "winner" is just absurd. It takes a team to win in football, not one player.

1. He beat out Kerry Collins.


If VY was such an asset this season, why did Fisher leave Collins in and keep VY on the bench. If VY can inspire his team to victory, or better yet carry them, why, would Fisher not put him in.

Here's why....VY had a great first season. But when adversity struck and he was faltering, VY couldn't take the boos and folded like a house of cards. Then it took the Nashville PD to find him so he wouldn't do something stupid to himself.

He got hurt, Collins led them to victory and kept a hot hand. If VY was that much better or if Collins stunk that much VY would be in the lineup in a heartbeat.

For the record, I also seem to remember a certain quarterback in his first year of playing take a lot pressure and criticism quite well. I dare say VY could not have handled the training camp and offseason that Rodgers did this year. And for the record Partial, I don't think you're an idiot, actually quite the opposite. It just makes me angry to see someone clearly intelligent enough to see what's going on, but is blinded by a false truth in to arguing certain points that are just completely asinine.

[Partial]

As for this season, both Jennings and Driver are disappointed in the production the receiver group has had. Their signature has been making additional yards after the catch. Two years ago, they ranked sixth in the NFL in that category and last year they ranked No. 1.

This year, they've dropped to 14th, which is indicative in the decline just about every area of the football team has had compared to its 13-3 season last year.

To me, this speaks volumes about Aaron's accuracy of the crossing routes/slants that the Packers have run so effectively over the past few years. I previously noted how I didn't think Aaron was particularly accurate on the short balls, and much better (comparatively) on his deep passes. I will be curious to watch how this evolves.

[Patler]

As for this season, both Jennings and Driver are disappointed in the production the receiver group has had. Their signature has been making additional yards after the catch. Two years ago, they ranked sixth in the NFL in that category and last year they ranked No. 1.

This year, they've dropped to 14th, which is indicative in the decline just about every area of the football team has had compared to its 13-3 season last year.

To me, this speaks volumes about Aaron's accuracy of the crossing routes/slants that the Packers have run so effectively over the past few years. I previously noted how I didn't think Aaron was particularly accurate on the short balls, and much better (comparatively) on his deep passes. I will be curious to watch how this evolves.

That strikes me as a fact without much meaning because of two other facts:
1. The average yards/completion in 2008 is almost identical to 2007, which was one of the higher averages going back a lot of years.
2. The completion percentage in 2008 falls well within what the Packers have achieved in recent years, lower than a few, higher than quite a few others.

If the Y.A.C. average is down, but the yards/catch average is about the same, with a similar completion percentage, it would seem to indicate the Packers are attempting fewer "catch and run" type plays. But so what? If the yards/reception and completion percentages remain about the same, the passing game is just as productive. It doesn't matter to me if the yards are gained on the throw or on the run after the reception, so long as they get good production out of each reception and each attempt. It doesn't appear there has been much of a change in that regard.

[Rastak]

Partial, you are fascinated with the Jeff Georges of the world and fail to recognize the value of a Matt Hasselbeck.

Are you kidding me? Hass is one of my favorite players and one of the best QBs in the NFL. Comparing Rodgers to Hass is foolish. Also, while a very good quarterback, he has never won a superbowl because he isn't a special playmaker back there.

Some of you guys ignore results and that bothers me. Vince Young has carried a team on his back and WON. Eli Manning has carried a team on his back and WON. Matt Hassellback has carried a team on his back and WON. Will Aaron? That remains to be seen, but to this point the answer is a resounding No.

The Titans carried VY more than he carried them.

By your standards, Grossman carried the Bears to the SB right?


Ouch.....Bossman shoots.....he scores!

[bobblehead]

They rated 12 quarterbacks superior to Rodgers by a 4-0 vote of the scouts:
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Ben Roethlisberger
Jay Cutler
Drew Brees
Eli Manning
Tony Romo
Carson Palmer
Matt Ryan
Donovan McNabb
Philip Rivers
Kurt Warner



Three guys were chosen over Rodgers by a 3-1 margin. IOW, one scout disagreed with the other 3 scouts

Brett Favre (let's not go there)
Jake Delhomme (I'd have to say JD is definitely a better starting QB than AR.)
Vince Young (Jeff Fisher disagrees with the "scouts")




These 3 QB's finished in a 2-2 tie with Rodgers, so 2 scouts yea, and two scouts nay

Jason Campbell (Wildly inconsistent and has had his ups and downs all year)
Chad Pennington (Sure, Chad is a helluva man and competitor. AR has the arm and talent all over Chad. Upside? Give me AR any time for potential)
Jeff Garcia (Benched for a bit, I'd say Rodgers has had a better year.)

If you look at it, Rodgers is about the 14th or 15th best QB in the NFL. Top half of the league in his first year as a starter. Not that shabby. His rating was 12? Maybe he outplayed 2-3 of the more highly rated QB's

It's just a list, about right in points, highly debatable in others.

Just wanted to get involved on page 6. From the first list I think we have some overrated QB's. Eli, Cutler, Romo, McNabb, Warner, and Ryan are all debateable in my opinion. Eli has a great team around him and is coming around, but he isn't peyton by any means. He is probably top half, but I won't say top 10. Cutler is maybe the most overrated QB in football. Great arm and release, but makes bad decisions...the comparison to a future HOFer are valid. Romo...he has a great TE, line, WR, and running game. When rodgers has all that I put him even or better. McNabb...maybe in his prime 3-4 years, but that is about it. Warner... I predicted an MVP this year, but honestly...how many coaches have benched him over his career?? He has played well with powerhouse offenses, but that is about it. Ryan. Probably, but let me see him without a dominating run game.

The next 3, BF, Delhomme, Garcia...Delhomme also has a great run game but is solid, BF...again, in his prime but not now, Young....PLEASE!!

Next 3, Garcia, Campbell and Pennington. I have always like pennington and wanted him in the trade. Very smart QB with a weak arm. Seems as though not many teams courted him as a FA though (wonder if AR would get any interest on the open market). Garcia hasn't been able to hold onto a job in the NFL. Campbell...jury is still out, but stats nor wins would indicate he is better than rodgers...ah but maybe intangibles.

Hands down I would go with Brady, Peyton, Brees, Rivers, or Big Ben. After that it gets very grey. Probably Ryan but I would stick with rodgers over anyone else right now. Again there are probably 6-7 where its hard to say...a grey area, but only 5-6 I would say are Clearly better.

[sheepshead]

Partial, you are fascinated with the Jeff Georges of the world and fail to recognize the value of a Matt Hasselbeck.

Are you kidding me? Hass is one of my favorite players and one of the best QBs in the NFL. Comparing Rodgers to Hass is foolish. Also, while a very good quarterback, he has never won a superbowl because he isn't a special playmaker back there.

Some of you guys ignore results and that bothers me. Vince Young has carried a team on his back and WON. Eli Manning has carried a team on his back and WON. Matt Hassellback has carried a team on his back and WON. Will Aaron? That remains to be seen, but to this point the answer is a resounding No.

what the fuck is a "special playmaker" anyway. This is all "espn commentator" garbage. You have no fucking idea what you're even talking about. None of those guys have "carried a team on their back" ...none.

[KYPack]

Partial, you are fascinated with the Jeff Georges of the world and fail to recognize the value of a Matt Hasselbeck.

Are you kidding me? Hass is one of my favorite players and one of the best QBs in the NFL. Comparing Rodgers to Hass is foolish. Also, while a very good quarterback, he has never won a superbowl because he isn't a special playmaker back there.

Some of you guys ignore results and that bothers me. Vince Young has carried a team on his back and WON. Eli Manning has carried a team on his back and WON. Matt Hassellback has carried a team on his back and WON. Will Aaron? That remains to be seen, but to this point the answer is a resounding No.

what the fuck is a "special playmaker" anyway. This is all "espn commentator" garbage. You have no fucking idea what you're even talking about. None of those guys have "carried a team on their back" ...none.

Uh oh.

Sheephead just played the Queen of Clubs.

[sheepshead]

Partial, you are fascinated with the Jeff Georges of the world and fail to recognize the value of a Matt Hasselbeck.

Are you kidding me? Hass is one of my favorite players and one of the best QBs in the NFL. Comparing Rodgers to Hass is foolish. Also, while a very good quarterback, he has never won a superbowl because he isn't a special playmaker back there.

Some of you guys ignore results and that bothers me. Vince Young has carried a team on his back and WON. Eli Manning has carried a team on his back and WON. Matt Hassellback has carried a team on his back and WON. Will Aaron? That remains to be seen, but to this point the answer is a resounding No.

what the fuck is a "special playmaker" anyway. This is all "espn commentator" garbage. You have no fucking idea what you're even talking about. None of those guys have "carried a team on their back" ...none.

Uh oh.

Sheephead just played the Queen of Clubs.


HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[wist43]

What has Hasselbeck won??? If you have a QB dependent system, and the QB isn't a HOF'er... then you have nothing, and must keep looking.

Does anyone expect Seattle to win a SB any time soon??? Isn't that the point??? Winning the SB???

If Rodgers can't win it all, then we're wasting our time. And lest anyone be confused... it is Rodgers who has to win a SB, not anyone else on that team... if he's incapable, then we're sunk before we ever get started.

[ThunderDan]

I can't believe that Eli Manning is rated above Rodgers.

The 2008 season is the first time in his career where his passer rating is going to be above 80.

His career stats are:
72 games 1,265/2,265 for 55.8% 14,504 yards or 201.4 yards per game 98 touchdowns 74 interceptions 76.1 passer rating

Giants fans were calling for his head in 2007.Even playing out of his mind the last 6 weeks of the regular season in 2007 his passer rating was 73.9 for the year.

Eli Manning is money. He is a young up-and-comer. H played the perfect pats as well as anybody, then won three road games in the playoffs than beat the Perfect Pats in the rematch. That is a hell of a 5 game stint at QB.

He doesn't have anyone to throw the ball to this year. Plax has been banged up all year. He's carrying a team on his back. That team is his.

Eli crapped the bed. He goes 15/29 169 yards 2 ints 40.7 rating.

He had four drives in the 4th quarter only down 9 and gets nothing. NY nets 99 yards with one fumble and one interception.

[Partial]

He played a bad game. As the QB of a team with a strong running game, much of the fault lies on him.

His defense is spectacular, his running game is great. Plaxicoco fucked them. I would be livid if I was a Giants fan!!

[Lurker64]

I think Eli, as a quarterback of a running team, needs to primarily be a caretaker who doesn't make major mistakes, doesn't turn the ball over, and can occasionally be called upon to make a play on a long third down. Today he made major mistakes, turned the ball over, and wasn't able to make any plays on long third downs.

The Packers offense asks for much more from Rodgers than the Giants offense asks from Eli.

[RashanGary]

I think the scouts had Tom Brady rated in the bottom 1/3 of the NFL the year he won his first Superbowl. Go figure.

[Partial]

I completely disagree. That is crazy talk. The Packers run an extremely conservative passing game as opposed to the run and gun we ran last year.

All our passes are to the outside of the field to minimize risk.

[RashanGary]

I think Eli, as a quarterback of a running team, needs to primarily be a caretaker who doesn't make major mistakes, doesn't turn the ball over, and can occasionally be called upon to make a play on a long third down. Today he made major mistakes, turned the ball over, and wasn't able to make any plays on long third downs.

The Packers offense asks for much more from Rodgers than the Giants offense asks from Eli.

For sure. Eli is a very good game manager. I like his instincts, awareness and savvy. He's not the passer or decision maker that Rodgers is.

[Partial]

I think the scouts had Tom Brady rated in the bottom 1/3 of the NFL the year he won his first Superbowl. Go figure.

He wasn't great then. His arm strength was less than it is now, and they, much like the Packers with Rodgers, played a conservative passing offense.

[RashanGary]

Hell yeah, I'll take SB Brady any day ;)

[SkinBasket]

I think the scouts had Tom Brady rated in the bottom 1/3 of the NFL the year he won his first Superbowl. Go figure.

He wasn't great then. His arm strength was less than it is now, and they, much like the Packers with Rodgers, played a conservative passing offense.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[pbmax]

A comment on the love of YAC. Here is a list of the QB leaders in YAC (as a percentage of their total Passing Yards) for the past three seasons:

2006
Brunell
Carr
Favre
Leftwich
McNabb

2007
Croyle
Favre
Harrington
Griese
Testaverde

2008
Cassel
O'Sullivan
Campbell
Favre
Losman

As you can see by the legends that populate the top of the leaderboard, this stat is, well, a little odd. There are some very bad players in there.

If you want to find out why YAC is more attributable to the Wide Receiver, the Route, the opposing Defense and random fluctuation than the skill of the QB Click Here (http://www.advancednflstats.com/2007/08/who-gets-credit-for-yac.html) and Then Click Here. (http://www.advancednflstats.com/2007/08/introducing-air-yards.html)

If you want to skip a list of regressions done, then go to the discussion of 2008 Air Yards Here. (http://www.advancednflstats.com/2009/01/air-yards-2008.html)

[theeaterofshades]

[

I would take Young because:
- He is bigger
- He is faster
- He is stronger
- He is more athletic
- He is a proven winner
- He has a good enough arm

Rodgers has a more powerful and more accurate arm, but give me the guy with superstar potential over the guy with maybe around the 10th best in the league potential. Rodgers doesn't have the raw skill set that Young has, and that is something you cannot learn.

Rodgers may be the better passing quarterback right now, but Young has gotten it done with passing, running, etc. He has shown a knack for making the big play to WIN games. He single-handedly beat the mighty Trojans, he was dominant as a ROOKIE (re: not average to slightly above average as a 4th year player), and while his passing numbers were not great his sophomore year, he still made plenty of plays and carried his team to the playoffs.

I'm not bashing Rodgers here, but I'm sure you'll interpret it that way. VY is a rare specimen, and that is why he went top 3 in the draft. There is an obvious reason that ARod fell as far as he did. Young is a freak.


Ya sure. VY is more of a RB that throws more balls than normal. Without accuracy I might add. I have seen very few run first, mega athletic QBs winning super bowls. Often it is the guys that don't have to carry their teams and play within the system. I use Brady as an illustration. Was not highly considered as a pro prospect coming out of Michigan, but fit Hoodie's scheme perfectly. He plays within his skills and abilities. He suffered a serious knee injury, but once healed, it shouldn't cost him much as the skills he relies on are mental first, physical second. Matt Cassel stepped in as Brady's back up and did much of the same thing as brady... Studied film hard and played within the offense. It has made him some big cash this off season.

Guys like Vince Young and Mike Vick have athletic skills beyond belief, but those skills are mostly wasted in an NFL Offense. If they would be on a team that had the guts to try some form of the option or veer offenses then they would be very scarey. If Vince worked on his passing skills and spent more time on truly learning how to play within the system he would do great things. But for right now he in my estimation is being carried more by the defense and the running game lead by Chris Johnson.

[Sparkey]

I completely disagree. That is crazy talk. The Packers run an extremely conservative passing game as opposed to the run and gun we ran last year.

All our passes are to the outside of the field to minimize risk.

Yup, I don't think I have ever seen them run a slant pattern.... :roll:

[pbmax]

Partial, you do realize that throwing outs, and other outside the hashmark routes and throws are some of the most dangerous and difficult? Remember Hasselback's "We'll take the ball and we're going to win"? Or Deion taking Favre to the house after GB had put the Cowboy game out of reach in 1997?

While Rodgers was clearly more willing to accept the checkdown than Favre, his average per attempt is quite high, so he was also making downfield throws regularly. The early season imbalance between passing and running also indicates that McCarthy was not afraid to put Rodgers in a pass all the time mode.

The only two things missing in the Packer Mid Coast O were the TE and screens. Usually, when someone wants to criticize a passing game for being timid and conservative, those are the kind of throws they are talking about.

[cpk1994]

Partial, you do realize that throwing outs, and other outside the hashmark routes and throws are some of the most dangerous and difficult? Remember Hasselback's "We'll take the ball and we're going to win"? Or Deion taking Favre to the house after GB had put the Cowboy game out of reach in 1997?

While Rodgers was clearly more willing to accept the checkdown than Favre, his average per attempt is quite high, so he was also making downfield throws regularly. The early season imbalance between passing and running also indicates that McCarthy was not afraid to put Rodgers in a pass all the time mode.

The only two things missing in the Packer Mid Coast O were the TE and screens. Usually, when someone wants to criticize a passing game for being timid and conservative, those are the kind of throws they are talking about.Not to nitpick but the Dieon pick-6 gave the Cowboys a 10-7 lead in the 2 quarter.

[pbmax]

Partial, you do realize that throwing outs, and other outside the hashmark routes and throws are some of the most dangerous and difficult? Remember Hasselback's "We'll take the ball and we're going to win"? Or Deion taking Favre to the house after GB had put the Cowboy game out of reach in 1997?

While Rodgers was clearly more willing to accept the checkdown than Favre, his average per attempt is quite high, so he was also making downfield throws regularly. The early season imbalance between passing and running also indicates that McCarthy was not afraid to put Rodgers in a pass all the time mode.

The only two things missing in the Packer Mid Coast O were the TE and screens. Usually, when someone wants to criticize a passing game for being timid and conservative, those are the kind of throws they are talking about.Not to nitpick but the Dieon pick-6 gave the Cowboys a 10-7 lead in the 2 quarter.
Pick away, mistakes in facts are fair game!

[gbgary]

I completely disagree. That is crazy talk. The Packers run an extremely conservative passing game as opposed to the run and gun we ran last year.

All our passes are to the outside of the field to minimize risk.

Yup, I don't think I have ever seen them run a slant pattern.... :roll:

they ran far fewer this year than in the last several. even completed a few toward the end of the season. :D

[bobblehead]

What has Hasselbeck won??? If you have a QB dependent system, and the QB isn't a HOF'er... then you have nothing, and must keep looking.

Does anyone expect Seattle to win a SB any time soon??? Isn't that the point??? Winning the SB???

If Rodgers can't win it all, then we're wasting our time. And lest anyone be confused... it is Rodgers who has to win a SB, not anyone else on that team... if he's incapable, then we're sunk before we ever get started.

Easy tiger, I like to say the QB is the most important guy on the field, but Rodgers is certainly capable of winning a superbowl with a good team around him.

Some might argue the only reason Hasselback hasn't won a superbowl is bad officiating.

As far as winning a superbowl soon...probably not next year, our defense will be running a new system, but I do think Rodgers will put up enough time of possession, points and yards to justify winning a superbowl. Right now we got McNabb, Warner, Flacco, and Big Ben in the hunt...what 3 out of 4 have in common?? A dominating Defense. Until you give Rodgers at least a competent defense I refuse to listen to how he "isn't capable"

And lest you be confused...its not the QB of those 4 that are leading their team to a superbowl...except maybe the guy no one expected to be this far (except me...MVP prediction)

[Guiness]

A comment on the love of YAC. Here is a list of the QB leaders in YAC (as a percentage of their total Passing Yards) for the past three seasons:

I see what you're saying there...but you can't ignore that Favre has been on that list consistently. He must be doing something that causes that.

[Noodle]

I completely disagree. That is crazy talk. The Packers run an extremely conservative passing game as opposed to the run and gun we ran last year.

All our passes are to the outside of the field to minimize risk.

I'm with PB. The hardest throw in football is the deep out. You need big time arm strength to gun that rascal out there on a line. If it floats, it's going back the other way.

There is nothing conservative about throwing outs and corner/flag routes. If anything, quick slants and dumping the ball to the TE over the middle are the most conserative throws you can make.

The ball in the middle is high risk only when it's late. But that's a risk caused by bad qb mental play and not by the characteristics or difficulties of the middle throw.

[bobblehead]

I completely disagree. That is crazy talk. The Packers run an extremely conservative passing game as opposed to the run and gun we ran last year.

All our passes are to the outside of the field to minimize risk.

Yup, I don't think I have ever seen them run a slant pattern.... :roll:

they ran far fewer this year than in the last several. even completed a few toward the end of the season. :D

Are you sure they ran far fewer, or did defenses take it away much more forcing us to pass to the outside?? We completed fewer, but we had already tailed off considerably last season around week 11...thus the emergence of Donald Lee deeper down the middle.

I'm only guessing, but I think we probably ran about the same number, we just got forced into making other throws by a defense who was ready for it....that and the officials refusal to call PI on the D when they would mug driver on the route.

[Cleft Crusty]

If you want to find out why YAC is more attributable to the Wide Receiver, the Route, the opposing Defense and random fluctuation than the skill of the QB Click Here (http://www.advancednflstats.com/2007/08/who-gets-credit-for-yac.html) and Then Click Here. (http://www.advancednflstats.com/2007/08/introducing-air-yards.html)


"Digging a little deeper, I ran a couple very simple regressions. I estimated Passing Yards per Completion using Air Yds/Completion and then using YAC/Completion. (I couldn't run a single regression using both components because multivariate regression doesn't work when the predictor variables comprise the entirety of the dependent variable)."


Cleft Crusty needs a drink or ten after reading that. Is that football or someone's graduate thesis from the Math Department. What the hell happened to blocking and tackling?

[bobblehead]

If you want to find out why YAC is more attributable to the Wide Receiver, the Route, the opposing Defense and random fluctuation than the skill of the QB Click Here (http://www.advancednflstats.com/2007/08/who-gets-credit-for-yac.html) and Then Click Here. (http://www.advancednflstats.com/2007/08/introducing-air-yards.html)


"Digging a little deeper, I ran a couple very simple regressions. I estimated Passing Yards per Completion using Air Yds/Completion and then using YAC/Completion. (I couldn't run a single regression using both components because multivariate regression doesn't work when the predictor variables comprise the entirety of the dependent variable)."


Cleft Crusty needs a drink or ten after reading that. Is that football or someone's graduate thesis from the Math Department. What the hell happened to blocking and tackling?

I'm pretty sure that is the guy who did a study and concluded a team shouldn't carry a punter, but instead always go for it on 4th down.

[Partial]

bump

[SkinBasket]

Why not just stick yourself in the eye with a fork?

[pbmax]

I'm pretty sure that is the guy who did a study and concluded a team shouldn't carry a punter, but instead always go for it on 4th down.
I don't know if it was the same guy, but someone did do, and others have done similar, studies. In terms of raw numbers, it is better to always go for it on 4th down. You have more possessions (and most importantly) score more points on those possessions than the opponent. Unless they are doing the same thing, they do not receive the same value as your team does, although there is obviously an increase in the opponents possessions.

From a game management or game theory standpoint, there are times punting makes MUCH more sense than other options. In a run of the mill close game not at the end of the half or game however, going for it more frequently on 4th down has tremendous advantages in scoring and keeping possession. Basically, teams are not maximizing their fourth down opportunities.

[sheepshead]

you should get banned just for bumping this.

[Lurker64]

Vince Young sucks as an NFL quarterback.

[pbmax]

Vince Young sucks as an NFL quarterback.
What are you talking about? He's going to the Hall of Fame! He told me himself. :lol:

As an aside, Partial does have the germ of an idea. The Packers did leave points on the board and Rodgers did clearly have room for improvement. What gets lost in elevating Vince Young and others is that it is entirely logical to assume Rodgers gets much better (after one preseason game I think his feet and movement in the pocket look much more assured-yes, its only one game against a terrible team).

And I truly think the offensive line will become a strength of the team this year, barring injuries. Unlike Football Outsiders, I think the offense is on its way up.

[Partial]

Vince Young sucks as an NFL quarterback.

Did you watch the preseason game the other night? He looked pretty damn driven and spectacular.

[Partial]

[quote=Lurker64]And I truly think the offensive line will become a strength of the team this year, barring injuries. Unlike Football Outsiders, I think the offense is on its way up.

Agreed on both accounts. Rodgers looked a lot more comfortable in the pocket than I saw all of last year. The O-line looks like it will be pretty darn good as well. I think they're going to be a much more balanced team play calling wise this year. This offense should be top 5 easily.

[ThunderDan]

bump

WHY??? This has been dead for 8 months!!!

[Pugger]

I'm still confused why Cutler is so high on that list... :P

[Partial]

bump

WHY??? This has been dead for 8 months!!!

Mission asked for a bump essentially.

[Scott Campbell]

bump

WHY??? This has been dead for 8 months!!!

Mission asked for a bump essentially.


Hey Mission, would you mind asking P to jump off a bridge? :lol:

[ThunderDan]

bump

WHY??? This has been dead for 8 months!!!

Mission asked for a bump essentially.

Why not give him the link to here so he can read it rather than clutter the board with a thread that has been dead for 8 months?

Did you get your feelings hurt because 1 agent was given more credit than 4 agents when the 4 write against the Forums starting QB?

[mission]

LOL, essentially huh?

Either way, the thread title itself makes me laugh. It's hard to really get too upset about Partial's stance here since it's so absurd.

Partial werent you saying AR was the Pack's best player or maybe the top player or whatever? Thread you started this week.

This whole argument has been a trip. Don't make me bump threads from 1-2 years ago with me calling Rodgers the man with the "IT" factor while everyone was worried about Brett leaving. I've only used your IT factor once here ... and it was for AR.

Not Vince Young. :lol:

[Partial]

Rodgers is impactful because he's the QB. He's looking pretty good so far. I'd say probably top 10 this year. Hopefully.

[Scott Campbell]

Rodgers is impactful because he's the QB. He's looking pretty good so far. I'd say probably top 10 this year. Hopefully.



It'd be nice if he put the comeback thing to bed early. Not that I put much stock in that talk, but I'm tired of reading about it.