An admission of incompetance by MM.

[Patler]

Sorry, but firing nearly half of his coaching is an admission of utter incompetence three years ago when he put the staff together.

I complained long and hard about his staff, their relatively poor success history, and the fact that most were in "elevated" positions above what they had ever performed at before. I hope MM has learned from this and does a better job of assembling his staff in his second go-around. It's his last chance in GB. He will not be given another opportunity to correct utter failure.

He needs to bring in some coaches with proven track records.

[Cleft Crusty]

Peter Principle applies to McCarthy perhaps?

[HarveyWallbangers]

Sorry, but firing nearly half of his coaching is an admission of utter incompetence three years ago when he put the staff together.

I complained long and hard about his staff, their relatively poor success history, and the fact that most were in "elevated" positions above what they had ever performed at before. I hope MM has learned from this and does a better job of assembling his staff in his second go-around. It's his last chance in GB. He will not be given another opportunity to correct utter failure.

He needs to bring in some coaches with proven track records.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. He came to a team that incorporated a new scheme the year prior, it had some success (under Jim Bates), and it wasn't necessarily looking to make drastic changes on that side of the ball. It was probably too easy to go with the status quo. Then, they had success at the end of 2006 and did well enough in 2007. Now, I think you'll see a defensive staff/scheme assembled that more fits what McCarthy truly wants out of a defense.

[sheepshead]

A mistake(s) is not necessarily incompetence. 13-3 is still on his resume for instance.

[Partial]

I am looking at this as MM is willing to do what it takes to be successful. He stuck with a defense he may not have been crazy about for the sake of continuity ( Donatell, Slowik, Bates in the previous three years ).

With that said, I'm still not positive he is the right guy for the job as I think the conservative play calling still falls on his shoulders, but he has earned some more time to prove his critics wrong.

I suspect Campen ends up being gone as well. I could see that coming out in the next day or two.

[Patler]

A mistake(s) is not necessarily incompetence. 13-3 is still on his resume for instance.

I'm referring to incompetence in hiring a staff. If it was not, why did he fire so many?

[Cleft Crusty]

A mistake(s) is not necessarily incompetence. 13-3 is still on his resume for instance.

I'm referring to incompetence in hiring a staff. If it was not, why did he fire so many?

They were shaking the vending machines.

[mission]

A mistake(s) is not necessarily incompetence. 13-3 is still on his resume for instance.

I'm referring to incompetence in hiring a staff. If it was not, why did he fire so many?

They were shaking the vending machines.

You cant get fired for that ... I've never stopped doing that anywhere I've worked.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Incompetence might be a harsh word. Plenty of good coaches have fired assistants. Bill Cowher fired Tim Lewis as DC.

Tom Coughlin fired Tim Lewis also.


The Giants New York Giants were ousted from the playoffs by the Eagles two weeks ago, and four days later Tom Coughlin fired defensive coordinator Tim Lewis. Coughlin yesterday plucked a coach away from the Eagles, naming Steve Spagnuolo as the Giants' new defensive coordinator.

So much for Coughlin bringing in a big-name or high-profile top assistant to run his defense. No Dom Capers, no Jim Mora Jr., no longtime, proven defensive guru with a track record of excellence. Spagnuolo, 47, has never been a coordinator in the NFL, but certainly has knowledge of the Giants, going against them the past eight years with the Eagles. Most recently, he served as Philadelphia's linebackers coach.

If McCarthy is changing the system completely, it makes sense to hire assistants that are better at teaching that new system.

[Patler]

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. He came to a team that incorporated a new scheme the year prior, it had some success (under Jim Bates), and it wasn't necessarily looking to make drastic changes on that side of the ball. It was probably too easy to go with the status quo.

If he did that, I have even less hope for him as a head coach long term. He had a free opportunity to put in the schemes he thought were best, and using the people he thought best to teach them. He didn't have to rehire any of them. He chose to do so. Gullickson, Hairston, Schottenheimer and Stock were all new hires by MM. None were with GB the year before. He also chose to give the DC job to a guy who had never been a coordinator at any level before.

Basically, MM admitted he had no idea what he was doing on the defensive side. He got rid of all but one that he hired.

This was a tremendous admission by MM that he screwed up. That can be a good thing, but he will have no more chances this big.

[Patler]

Incompetence might be a harsh word. Plenty of good coaches have fired assistants. Bill Cowher fired Tim Lewis as DC.
Tom Coughlin fired Tim Lewis also.
If McCarthy is changing the system completely, it makes sense to hire assistants that are better at teaching that new system.

Sure, they fire coordinators often, coaches often; but do you ever remember firing 7 all at the same time without the HC going?

He scrapped his defensive staff almost entirely.
He gave up on his special teams coordinator.
He gave up on the guy who headed and designed his strength and conditioning program.

He got rid of 3/4 of the leaders he picked to run HIS program. This is a huge shake-up.

This is a lot more than firing a coordinator, that happens regularly. He gave up on the direction of most of his staff, except for offense.

The Packers will have new leadership on defense, new leadership on Special teams, new leadership in the strength and conditioning program. It will not be much different than for teams who fired their head coaches.

[sheepshead]

A mistake(s) is not necessarily incompetence. 13-3 is still on his resume for instance.

I'm referring to incompetence in hiring a staff. If it was not, why did he fire so many?

we're splitting hairs , I just thought the term was a little harsh. I give him much more credit for acting swiftly. There's an old business school saying, hire slowly and fire quickly. Lets face it, bad teams were moving the chains and scoring almost at will on us. Wholesale changes were necessary. I'm sure TT told him to get it right-quickly!

[HarveyWallbangers]

This is a huge shake-up.

I have no idea how common it is. I know Mike Holmgren got rid of his entire offensive staff last year.

[pbmax]

If he hires Nolan, then we will be revisiting the 49ers from 2005. That is not an exciting prospect. At least Thompson hasn't hired John York to help in the front office. :lol:

The best advice I remember about being in this position was Harlan or Wolf who said, "You hire good people, and then you get out of the way".

So my only concern now is that M3 has found someone good, and relieved the staff of their duties after consulting with that person. But the fact that I cannot catch a sniff about him talking to anyone, that there is no leak, makes me think he is talking to someone he knows and does not need to go through an agent or 3rd party. So it seems like Moss or Nolan so far. Fair warning though, I am a poor tea leaf reader.

[gbgary]

He scrapped his defensive staff almost entirely.
He gave up on his special teams coordinator.
He gave up on the guy who headed and designed his strength and conditioning program.

He got rid of 3/4 of the leaders he picked to run HIS program. This is a huge shake-up.

This is a lot more than firing a coordinator, that happens regularly. He gave up on the direction of most of his staff, except for offense.



now he needs to get rid of the guy calling the plays!






why did he fire so many?

They were shaking the vending machines.

http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:forums.corvetteforum.com/get/images/smilies/lol.gif

[pbmax]

He scrapped his defensive staff almost entirely.
He gave up on his special teams coordinator.
He gave up on the guy who headed and designed his strength and conditioning program.

He got rid of 3/4 of the leaders he picked to run HIS program. This is a huge shake-up.

This is a lot more than firing a coordinator, that happens regularly. He gave up on the direction of most of his staff, except for offense.



now he needs to get rid of the guy calling the plays!

His offense has been pretty good two years running, you and McGinn aside. There are many teams who would give up large chunks of money to get this production, including one just to left of us on the map.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I like McCarthy. I thought he had a bad year, but I didn't have a problem with his playcalling in the previous two years. I think he'll rebound. I think he's the right mix of player's coach and hard@ss.

[Fritz]

My sense was that the Bates system seemed to be working okay, and TT had started drafting for it, so MM didn't want to rock that boat.

But something or someone clearly failed this year, so it was time to start again. I tend to agree with Harv on this one, though I agree with Patler that this is MM's first and last chance to fire coordinators and make wholesale changes. He gets his team in a position to need to do this again, he's gone, too.

I am mystified why Gullickson was canned.

[gbgary]

I like McCarthy. I thought he had a bad year... I think he's the right mix of player's coach and hard@ss.


i agree and i like him too...but i've always had issues with his play calling.

[Patler]

I am mystified why Gullickson was canned.

I would really like to know the thinking behind it. When he was brought in it was said to be because of his innovative program and use of free weights. This was not new but certainly not in the mainstream of contemporary thought. It seemed to work very well for two seasons.

I'm guessing that McCarthy must have had input from the medical staff criticizing the heavy emphasis on the use of free weights. One year with injuries and he seems to be scrapping the program. This is from Gullickson's bio on the Packer website:

Gullickson enters 2008 with the task of continuing the success of the team's detailed offseason program, which McCarthy referred to numerous times in his assessment of the Packers' success in 2007. In recognition of his efforts, Gullickson was named the NFL's Strength and Conditioning Coach of the Year in 2007 by a vote of his peers in the Professional Football Strength and Conditioning Coaches Society.

[retailguy]

I like McCarthy. I thought he had a bad year, but I didn't have a problem with his playcalling in the previous two years. I think he'll rebound. I think he's the right mix of player's coach and hard@ss.

Jim Bates is probably sitting in his house in Oneida screaming at the TV saying - "See I TOLD you so"....

McCarthy isn't a bad guy by any stretch, but the whole "blue collar, drinking buddy" is getting a little stale though. He needs to deliver on some of the bravado, and so far it has been a mixed bag. Enough to get you questioning if Favre had more to do with it than it seemed, or, if he just merely road an unprecedented streak of luck.

Watching him in games, towards the end, when the "invetiable slide" was occuring, didn't seem to resonate with him very much. And the penalty thing? Two years running, with extreme penalties, you can't lay that anywhere except at the head coach.

After Singletary publicly humiliated Vernon Davis, you haven't heard much about him since... You can question Singletary's delivery, but it seemed to get some results...

We need some of that (without the whole pants dropping episode...)

[Cleft Crusty]

We need some of that (without the whole pants dropping episode...)

Nobody wants to see the Teddy Bear tattoo on McCarthy's huge white, pimply ass.

[Fritz]

One wonders how ol' Cleft knows so much about the state of MM's rear end...

[retailguy]

I am mystified why Gullickson was canned.

I would really like to know the thinking behind it. When he was brought in it was said to be because of his innovative program and use of free weights. This was not new but certainly not in the mainstream of contemporary thought. It seemed to work very well for two seasons.


[/quote]

Maybe they just didn't get along, or, Gullickson did something that McCarthy didn't agree with?

This just doesn't bother me so much. I don't understand it, but, all kidding aside, I think there is some truth to the "three envelopes" thing I posted in jest earlier today.

Sometimes, you just gotta make some bold moves. Perhaps McCarthy is getting a lot of heat privately. Perhaps the Docs were complaining. But, maybe, he's just making some reactive moves. (This would not be a good thing)

While I applaud doing something (when it looked like they weren't going to do anything), this does have a bit of a scattergun approach to the whole deal.

[Cleft Crusty]

One wonders how ol' Cleft knows so much about the state of MM's rear end...

I'm a dispassionate reporter with a tremendous array of sources. For all you know it could be that he once shared a hot tub with Mark Chmura.

[Fritz]

Yes, I would have to say it would take an array of sources to have that kind of inside info...

Cleft, you are a hero to us all.

[Kiwon]

A mistake(s) is not necessarily incompetence. 13-3 is still on his resume for instance.

I'm referring to incompetence in hiring a staff. If it was not, why did he fire so many?

To deflect blame and to buy himself some time (and hopefully improve the team).

He's probably got one season left to stabilize things.

WHAT will be interesting is the insider tales from the coaches who were fired. Sherman's former staff aired some dirty laundry. Let's see what happens here.

Could be that the TT veneer might get lifted a little higher. I wonder if Farve can resist the temptation to "Amen" any TT criticism.

[Fritz]

Who knows, right? If anyone would do so, my money's on Mike Stock.

[pbmax]

A mistake(s) is not necessarily incompetence. 13-3 is still on his resume for instance.

I'm referring to incompetence in hiring a staff. If it was not, why did he fire so many?

To deflect blame and to buy himself some time (and hopefully improve the team).

He's probably got one season left to stabilize things.

WHAT will be interesting is the insider tales from the coaches who were fired. Sherman's former staff aired some dirty laundry. Let's see what happens here.

Could be that the TT veneer might get lifted a little higher. I wonder if Favre can resist the temptation to "Amen" any TT criticism.
None of these guys strikes me as a Jeff Jagodzinski type, and he was the one, plus a single quote from the RB coach that he later backtracked on, that dished on Sherman.

Not saying it can't happen. Just not likely. Its much easier to complain about your treatment when your area of responsibility was playing well. The defensive coaches start any public pissing match in the hole of a 22nd ranked defense. And it wasn't just a single playoff breakdown that cost them their jobs.

[KYPack]

I am mystified why Gullickson was canned.

I would really like to know the thinking behind it. When he was brought in it was said to be because of his innovative program and use of free weights. This was not new but certainly not in the mainstream of contemporary thought. It seemed to work very well for two seasons.

I'm guessing that McCarthy must have had input from the medical staff criticizing the heavy emphasis on the use of free weights. One year with injuries and he seems to be scrapping the program. This is from Gullickson's bio on the Packer website:

Gullickson enters 2008 with the task of continuing the success of the team's detailed offseason program, which McCarthy referred to numerous times in his assessment of the Packers' success in 2007. In recognition of his efforts, Gullickson was named the NFL's Strength and Conditioning Coach of the Year in 2007 by a vote of his peers in the Professional Football Strength and Conditioning Coaches Society.


Then in 2008, a former number 1 pick DT blew his back out under Gullickson's watch.

I'm sure it wasn't the only reason, but that did go down.

Colledge looks like he thrived under Rock's work, but there are any number of other young lineman & LB's who don't seem to be making great gains in the weight room.

That is the bottom line, isn't it?

[Lurker64]

I think a bad coaching hire is kind of like a bad draft pick. You're better off realizing that you made a bad pick, and cutting ties before too much damage is done than by keeping a guy around to do more damage while you hope he makes it right.

If it turns out that the defensive staff is actually responsible for failings in the eyes of McCarthy and he thinks the problem is systemic, it's smarter to get rid of these guys sooner rather than later.

Though, to be honest, I don't really know if Sanders and crew were really the problem, or if this is just CYA behavior by McCarthy.

[The Leaper]

McCarthy doesn't impress me as being a really smart guy. He's a hard worker who understands football, but I'm not sure he will ever become a premier head coach in the NFL. He's probably better than Sherman as a head coach...but that isn't saying much.

I was very critical of MM's coaching staff from day one. I wasn't a fan of Sanders...and I despised the Kurt the Worthless Turd. The entire Ryan debacle convinced me that Stock was a buffoon as well.

Ultimately, who you surround yourself with goes a long way to building success that can last...not ride a roller coaster of 13-3, 6-10, 11-5, 7-9...which is where it seems we are heading at best. This is because I have little confidence that McCarthy understands just what it takes to administrate and delegate as a head coach.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Ultimately, who you surround yourself with goes a long way to building success that can last...not ride a roller coaster of 13-3, 6-10, 11-5, 7-9...which is where it seems we are heading at best. This is because I have little confidence that McCarthy understands just what it takes to administrate and delegate as a head coach.

Is this the reason you announced your opposition to Nolan when it now looks like he'll be hired?
:D

[Bretsky]

Sorry, but firing nearly half of his coaching is an admission of utter incompetence three years ago when he put the staff together.

I complained long and hard about his staff, their relatively poor success history, and the fact that most were in "elevated" positions above what they had ever performed at before. I hope MM has learned from this and does a better job of assembling his staff in his second go-around. It's his last chance in GB. He will not be given another opportunity to correct utter failure.

He needs to bring in some coaches with proven track records.



IMO you are absolutely spot on with all of this

I hope MM learns from this and brings in coaches with track records as well

[RashanGary]

IMO you are absolutely spot on with all of this

I hope MM learns from this and brings in coaches with track records as well

I agree. I hope he brings in someone with proven success and lets him have complete control of hte defense. I hope he doesn't bring in a young, yes man so his security isn't threatened.

[Bretsky]

IMO you are absolutely spot on with all of this

I hope MM learns from this and brings in coaches with track records as well

I agree. I hope he brings in someone with proven success and lets him have complete control of hte defense. I hope he doesn't bring in a young, yes man so his security isn't threatened.


agree; let MM take the offense to the top and somebody proven excel with the defense

[Rastak]

Did MM micromanage the defense under Sanders? Normally an offensive coach, even more so one who calls plays, usually does let the DC have a free hand with the defense.

[Lurker64]

Did MM micromanage the defense under Sanders? Normally an offensive coach, even more so one who calls plays, usually does let the DC have a free hand with the defense.

Various JS writers have commented things to the effect that McCarthy basically has nothing to do with the defense, and that the coordinator has free reign. So I believe that the DC has had a free hand under MM.

[The Leaper]

Is this the reason you announced your opposition to Nolan when it now looks like he'll be hired?
:D

I'm just not a Nolan fan. Look at what SF did after he left...they improved with a very green fill-in coach.

Nolan would not be a great hire IMO...just another example of McCarthy choosing to go with someone he is comfortable with. Neither McCarthy or Thompson seem capable of making a bold move when necessary. They play it safe...which leads to lots of mediocrity IMO.

[Bretsky]

Is this the reason you announced your opposition to Nolan when it now looks like he'll be hired?
:D

I'm just not a Nolan fan. Look at what SF did after he left...they improved with a very green fill-in coach.

Nolan would not be a great hire IMO...just another example of McCarthy choosing to go with someone he is comfortable with. Neither McCarthy or Thompson seem capable of making a bold move when necessary. They play it safe...which leads to lots of mediocrity IMO.


What about his D's with the Giants and Baltimore ? He's been a solid DC when the talent was there

If MM wanted to hire for comfort level he'll hire Winston Moss

[Gunakor]

McCarthy doesn't impress me as being a really smart guy. He's a hard worker who understands football, but I'm not sure he will ever become a premier head coach in the NFL. He's probably better than Sherman as a head coach...but that isn't saying much.

I was very critical of MM's coaching staff from day one. I wasn't a fan of Sanders...and I despised the Kurt the Worthless Turd. The entire Ryan debacle convinced me that Stock was a buffoon as well.

Ultimately, who you surround yourself with goes a long way to building success that can last...not ride a roller coaster of 13-3, 6-10, 11-5, 7-9...which is where it seems we are heading at best. This is because I have little confidence that McCarthy understands just what it takes to administrate and delegate as a head coach.

I despised Kurt too, but in all fairness, he did not deserve to be canned this year. He coached the defensive backs, right? The group that has 2 players starting in the Pro Bowl? The group that led the NFL in interceptions? The VERY BEST defensive backfield as a whole in the entire NFL - all while dealing with injuries to Harris for a month, Bigby for nearly the entire season, Rouse for a while, and Woodson playing on a broken toe for the whole year - THAT defensive backfield was coached by... Kurt Shottenheimer. The guy who turned Nick Collins from a player we all wished would be cut in August into the starting FS in the Pro Bowl next month. I can't say I'm too pleased with the decision to let him go. Not after the year he and his group had in 2008 anyway.

Everyone else? Good riddance.

[Packerarcher]

The admission of incompetence should be coming from TT.

[SnakeLH2006]

By all accounts when a head coach in the NFL faces heat, either he sticks by his staff and usually gets shitcanned (as no change after a shitty year usually means similar results).

Often when facing heat (and usually a year away from potential firing) a head coach will make dramatic changes on his staff...sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

What is interesting here, is that MM brought in all his old homeys from his previous crews he's worked on and it seems like he elevated them to positions not based on merit, as it seemed like they were his buddies and he hoped chemistry would be the answer.

Obviously, not as he's dropped the axe on all his homeboys as of late, and I just hope he's learned he needs to bring in talented NFL experienced dudes that have won (or performed well) in the past.

Fingers crossed for his and our sakes! 8-)

[Gunakor]

The admission of incompetence should be coming from TT.

I argued this in another thread.

The only decision TT could have apologized for making here was hiring MM. All of the coaches that were canned were hired by MM, not TT. I'm not sold on MM being the right guy yet, but I'm not convinced he isn't either. So I wouldn't yet apologize for that hire either if I were in TT's shoes. What other incompetence are you suggesting?

[cpk1994]

The admission of incompetence should be coming from TT.

I argued this in another thread.

The only decision TT could have apologized for making here was hiring MM. All of the coaches that were canned were hired by MM, not TT. I'm not sold on MM being the right guy yet, but I'm not convinced he isn't either. So I wouldn't yet apologize for that hire either if I were in TT's shoes. What other incompetence are you suggesting?He is suggesting TT apologize for trading Favre away".

[Gunakor]

The admission of incompetence should be coming from TT.

I argued this in another thread.

The only decision TT could have apologized for making here was hiring MM. All of the coaches that were canned were hired by MM, not TT. I'm not sold on MM being the right guy yet, but I'm not convinced he isn't either. So I wouldn't yet apologize for that hire either if I were in TT's shoes. What other incompetence are you suggesting?He is suggesting TT apologize for trading Favre away".

Stats and obvious talent do not heal wounds like that as well as winning does, and I can understand that. I can wait a bit longer if I need to. There is no possible way (barring injury) that Rodgers, with all the talent he has, isn't going to be a championship caliber QB sooner rather than later. Wins will come. And then it will be water under the bridge for Packer fans.