Personnel Changes?

[The Shadow]

I have a hunch Al Harris' days may now be numbered.
Wouldn't be at all surprised now to see the Packers attempt to sign 2 defensive line free agents, and draft a corner like Jenkins, if he's avail. at #9.
Jason Taylor, if he's released by the Skins (and over the injuries), might be an intriguing addition - if he'd like to prove he's got something besides dancing skills left.
Something tells me that the Packers will be looking at corners with more than bump and run skills - no matter who the next coordinator is. Woodson can seamlessly fit into another system, but Harris seems a bit too much of a one-trick pony.

[The Leaper]

No to Jason Taylor.

I agree that Harris probably will have to fight to retain his starting spot in 2009...Harris is in the middle of a steady decline.

[Brando19]

I love Al Harris...I hope you guys are wrong.

[MJZiggy]

Remember that Harris is damn good at that trick...

[Gunakor]

I though Harris had a solid year this year. Even being out for a month he still earned an alternate spot on the NFC Pro Bowl roster this year. I could see doubt if his injury was more substantial, but since he was able to come back and play just as effectively as he had before the injury, I don't see MM making any changes there. Barring unforseen problems this offseason I think Harris and Woodson are still the starting corners next year.

[Pack-man]

I guess the decision on Harris will hinge on what kind of defensive scheme the new DC brings in. Most 3-4 defenses use a press type coverage. So he would be good there. If they go to a 4-3 with more man on man coverage I don't see Harris being a good fit there anymore.

No to Jason Taylor. He didn't want to play in GB last year. What makes you think he'd change his mind now?

[packers11]

I don't get why Harris would be gone, we have tones of cap and he was still very solid last year... Worst comes to worst he plays in the nickel spot, I believe he only counts around 5 million to the cap and with the packers already having a huge cap number this shouldn't be a problem...

[wist43]

Regardless of scheme, what makes any of you think that TT will move to fill holes??? That is to say, fill needs.

TT doesn't see needs... he just sees players. If he "needs" a corner, and sees a WR on the board that he has rated higher, even if the difference between the WR and Corner is infintesimal... he's gong to take the WR.

He's going to trade down 12 times, and draft 93 guys... I don't think I'm going out on a limb with this one... he's done it every year.

Needs??? Filling holes??? Nah

Maybe he takes a look at Corners later in the draft, and hopes one of them turns out... that's his approach. Always the highest rated player on his board, regardless of position, and regardless of need.

[bobblehead]

No to Jason Taylor.

I agree that Harris probably will have to fight to retain his starting spot in 2009...Harris is in the middle of a steady decline.

Did you come to this conclusion before or after he contained the best reciever in the NFL this season?

[Gunakor]

Regardless of scheme, what makes any of you think that TT will move to fill holes??? That is to say, fill needs.

TT doesn't see needs... he just sees players. If he "needs" a corner, and sees a WR on the board that he has rated higher, even if the difference between the WR and Corner is infintesimal... he's gong to take the WR.

He's going to trade down 12 times, and draft 93 guys... I don't think I'm going out on a limb with this one... he's done it every year.

Needs??? Filling holes??? Nah

Maybe he takes a look at Corners later in the draft, and hopes one of them turns out... that's his approach. Always the highest rated player on his board, regardless of position, and regardless of need.

And that was true, right up until TT selected cornerback Pat Lee in the second round. And he filled a need at TE when he drafted Jermichael Finley. And he traded UP to get Jeremy Thompson. And drafted 2 QB's, coz, u know, we certainly didn't need a QB.

I guess I can't agree with you that TT doesn't fill needs.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I guess I can't agree with you that TT doesn't fill needs.

I can't either. He drafted a WR in the second round after we lost Javon Walker. When that WR got injured, he drafted another WR in the second round the next year. When we needed an OG after 2005, he drafted Daryn Colledge in the second round.

[wist43]

Regardless of scheme, what makes any of you think that TT will move to fill holes??? That is to say, fill needs.

TT doesn't see needs... he just sees players. If he "needs" a corner, and sees a WR on the board that he has rated higher, even if the difference between the WR and Corner is infintesimal... he's gong to take the WR.

He's going to trade down 12 times, and draft 93 guys... I don't think I'm going out on a limb with this one... he's done it every year.

Needs??? Filling holes??? Nah

Maybe he takes a look at Corners later in the draft, and hopes one of them turns out... that's his approach. Always the highest rated player on his board, regardless of position, and regardless of need.

And that was true, right up until TT selected cornerback Pat Lee in the second round. And he filled a need at TE when he drafted Jermichael Finley. And he traded UP to get Jeremy Thompson. And drafted 2 QB's, coz, u know, we certainly didn't need a QB.

I guess I can't agree with you that TT doesn't fill needs.

He drafted guys at those positions... did he actually fill needs??? Did Lee contribute??? At all??? Sorry, but I want my 2nd rounders on the field and producing almost from day one.

I like Finleys upside, but given the promise that Lee showed the previous year, was TE really a need??? I think you could make the argument either way that Finley was either a need pick, or a PBA... that said, he was a 4th round pick, hardly a stone cold push to fill a need. Regardless, as I said, I like his upside.

I like Thompson too... but again, any impact??? Did it fill a need??? Was DE considered a big "need" last year??? Jenkins was healthy, KGB was still on the roster and being well paid for it, Kampman of course, they seem to have some faith in Montgomery (I do not), and while the DL as a whole over achieved, they did produce good numbers, so I don't think Thompson could be considered a need pick either; and again, throwing a 4th round pick at a position probably doesn't solve your problem anyway, so is he really addressing a need with that pick???

Just another one of his darts that he hopes pans out... and that's the rub. TT's multiple darts approach, as opposed to targetting an impact guy, at a position of need, and making the necessary moves to acquire that guy.

To me, filling a need is making a move to get that guy that you plug in from day one and he performs at a high level. Be it moving up 5 spots in the first round or signing an UFA, TT simply does not go after that guy. He shoots his dice, trades down, and rationalizes that that gives him 3 more chances at finding a guy.

Does that give him the luxury of taking a Jordy Nelson with his first pick in last years draft??? A head scratcher beyond the lack of need... it knocked Jones down the depth chart when he had shown some promise from the previous year. So where is the impact??? Okay player, but did virtually nothing to help them this year, and likely won't have much of an impact next year... it's a crowded position.

Then there's Harrell of course... no need to dwell on that, lol :D

Yes, he drafts players at positions that we have a need at, but there's a big difference between aggressively moving to solve a problem, and simply spewing some spit balls at the problem and hoping one of them sticks.

I think TT has proven that he will always take his BPA, regardless of position, in the 1st round... need never enters into his thinking with that pick.

[wist43]

I guess I can't agree with you that TT doesn't fill needs.

I can't either. He drafted a WR in the second round after we lost Javon Walker. When that WR got injured, he drafted another WR in the second round the next year. When we needed an OG after 2005, he drafted Daryn Colledge in the second round.

I do agree that he takes players at positions of need... just in his own good time.

Jennings worked out, never liked Colledge... and the Walker mess was mostly of TT's doing to begin with. That Walker went the way of the knob, is neither here nor there... unless he was misbehaving in the locker room, and they saw him as a bad seed; but, that wasn't reported. His discontent became public after TT told him to take a hike on a new contract. To me, Walker is a TT indictment.

[Lurker64]

To me, Walker is a TT indictment.

I don't know how much you can really blame Walker on TT considering that he has played relatively poorly and generally made an ass of himself in every place he's played since here. If he behaves like an ass in Green Bay, and he behaves like an ass in Denver, and he behaves like an ass in Oakland... he might just be an ass.

[wist43]

To me, Walker is a TT indictment.

I don't know how much you can really blame Walker on TT considering that he has played relatively poorly and generally made an ass of himself in every place he's played since here. If he behaves like an ass in Green Bay, and he behaves like an ass in Denver, and he behaves like an ass in Oakland... he might just be an ass.

I said his turning into a knob, notwithstanding... don't feel like arguing about Walker.

What's he do with the defense??? Looks like a mess...

[The Leaper]

Did you come to this conclusion before or after he contained the best reciever in the NFL this season?

It's not about one game, or should I bring up the name of Terrell Owens?

Harris is no longer an elite DB...and with his advancing age, it isn't going to get any better going forward. All I said is that it is likely he will have to COMPETE for his starting spot in camp this year. How is that a bad thing?

[Fritz]

Regardless of scheme, what makes any of you think that TT will move to fill holes??? That is to say, fill needs.

TT doesn't see needs... he just sees players. If he "needs" a corner, and sees a WR on the board that he has rated higher, even if the difference between the WR and Corner is infintesimal... he's gong to take the WR.

He's going to trade down 12 times, and draft 93 guys... I don't think I'm going out on a limb with this one... he's done it every year.

Needs??? Filling holes??? Nah

Maybe he takes a look at Corners later in the draft, and hopes one of them turns out... that's his approach. Always the highest rated player on his board, regardless of position, and regardless of need.

Pat Lee, corner, third round. Is that "later in the draft"? Leroy Butler was what, a second rounder? And Doug Evans? Sixth, I think?

[rbaloha1]

I have a hunch Al Harris' days may now be numbered.


AH can still play. There was a stretch of games that no passes were completed on his side.

Whilst AH's skills are slightly diminishing the dude is still a top notch bump and run guy.

The front seven is where personnel changes are required.

[wist43]

Regardless of scheme, what makes any of you think that TT will move to fill holes??? That is to say, fill needs.

TT doesn't see needs... he just sees players. If he "needs" a corner, and sees a WR on the board that he has rated higher, even if the difference between the WR and Corner is infintesimal... he's gong to take the WR.

He's going to trade down 12 times, and draft 93 guys... I don't think I'm going out on a limb with this one... he's done it every year.

Needs??? Filling holes??? Nah

Maybe he takes a look at Corners later in the draft, and hopes one of them turns out... that's his approach. Always the highest rated player on his board, regardless of position, and regardless of need.

Pat Lee, corner, third round. Is that "later in the draft"? Leroy Butler was what, a second rounder? And Doug Evans? Sixth, I think?

You find players all over the place; hell, even working at KFC...

My overriding point would be, that if you are close to being a contender, and you have a glaring hole, is throwing 3 6th round choices at it addressing the need???

My answer would be no... you draft those players later in the draft to develop them for down the line, ST's, and depth... you don't count on being able to plug them in right away and thereby solving your problem.

Again, just b/c a player is drafted at a given position, doesn't meant TT went balls to wall to fill a hole in the starting lineup. If TT signs 12 undrafted corners after the draft, is he addressing need??? Is he solving the problem...

He may be addressing need in the cheapest way possible, but he's probably not solving the problem and filling the hole.

[Fritz]

Philosophical differences between us, then, Wist.

I'm with TT on this one; you feel that you need to consider a team's current need more strongly.

[Patler]

To a large extent TT is a step ahead of the fans in trying to fill needs.

There is a need for a DT now, TT already tried to address that with Harrell 2 years ago.
KGB was getting older but still performed in 2007. No matter, Thompson was drafted.
In the next year or two CB will be a need, TT has already drafted Lee, found Williams, drafted Blackmon.
Driver will slow down or retire, Jones, Nelson maybe Swain are on hand.
Tauscher leaves, Giacomini is there with experience.
Lee gets older, a second TE is needed, Finly has matured and gained experience.

Many of you talk about addressing needs with drafted rookies. What TT is trying to do is to be a year or two ahead of the need, so when the need arises in the starting lineup you have a player with a couple years experience to move into the spot, not a rookie. That was the outline that Wolf followed quite successfully. Players like Brooks, Bennett, Dotsun, Henderson, Brian Williams, Freeman and Sharper were all high picks who did not play an awful lot as rookies but were picked to fill needs that were anticipated for their second or third years. Chad Clifton was not picked to be a starter as a rookie, but had to step in when injuries and poor performances opened up a spot for him. When Wolf tried to meet current needs with high draft picks, he was often unsuccessful, with picks like Buckley, Michels, Conway, Edwards, Vinson and Reynolds (if you want to attribute Reynolds to Wolf and not to Sherman).

Injuries and poor performances by others can distrupt the plan, but I would prefer seeing needs addressed before they occur, so you can fill the need with an experienced player, not a rookie.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Agreed. He doesn't count on rookies to fill needs. He counts on them to fill anticipated needs a year or two down the line. Philadelphia has a similar philosophy.

Philadelphia
Draft Sheppard and Brown when you have Taylor and Vincent. They sit for a year or two, but are ready when Taylor and Vincent leave.

Draft Kolb when you have McNabb.

Draft Brian Westbrook when you have Duce Staley.

Draft Winston Justice when you have Tra Thomas and Jon Runyan.

Draft Trevor Laws when you have Bunkley and Patterson.

[hoosier]

To a large extent TT is a step ahead of the fans in trying to fill needs.

Many of you talk about addressing needs with drafted rookies. What TT is trying to do is to be a year or two ahead of the need, so when the need arises in the starting lineup you have a player with a couple years experience to move into the spot, not a rookie. That was the outline that Wolf followed quite successfully. Players like Brooks, Bennett, Dotsun, Henderson, Brian Williams, Freeman and Sharper were all high picks who did not play an awful lot as rookies but were picked to fill needs that were anticipated for their second or third years. Chad Clifton was not picked to be a starter as a rookie, but had to step in when injuries and poor performances opened up a spot for him. When Wolf tried to meet current needs with high draft picks, he was often unsuccessful, with picks like Buckley, Michels, Conway, Edwards, Vinson and Reynolds (if you want to attribute Reynolds to Wolf and not to Sherman).


Agree completely with the main point, but can't help nitpicking a little. Robert Brooks (7th), Edgar Bennett (4th) and Earl Dotson (4th) weren't exactly high draft picks. Henderson, Williams and Free were only 3rd round picks. The fact that they blossomed was either evidence of Wolf's eye for talent or of Holmy's staff's talents with player development, or both.

[Patler]

[quote=Patler]
Agree completely with the main point, but can't help nitpicking a little. Robert Brooks (7th), Edgar Bennett (4th) and Earl Dotson (4th) weren't exactly high draft picks. Henderson, Williams and Free were only 3rd round picks. The fact that they blossomed was either evidence of Wolf's eye for talent or of Holmy's staff's talents with player development, or both.

Wasn't Brooks a 3rd round pick? Wasn't Dotson a 3rd too?
I tried to keep my list to those in rounds 1-4, which I considered to be "early". I purposely left out players like Levens, Driver, Tauscher, Evans, Timmerman, Rivera, Bradford and Hasselbeck who I think fall more into the "eye for talent" category you mention.

[hoosier]

You're right, Brooks was a third. I was thinking of Driver, my bad.

I think an point to be emphasized here is the importance of continuity and good assistants in the coaching staff. That's something that has been lacking in the post-Holmgren era. Think of how many of Holmy's assistants went on to become head coaches; all of those up and coming coaches spent time teaching under Holmy's regime. Without those good teachers among the position coaches it's likely that many of Wolf's "finds" don't ever develop. I'm harping on this because I don't yet have a good feeling for McCarthy's ability to put together a good network of assistants.