Is there any talk about 3-4?

[Tony Oday]

Just wondering If the Pack will utilize the 3-4 at all this year as a change of pace defense? I mean we have Hawk, Barnett and Taylor penciled in as starters but what if Hodge blows the doors off in camp?

It would be an interesting look if we slip it in once in a while.

[Partial]

Not that our DE's are super great pass rushers, but I just don't see much of a passrush from our LBs either. I don't think it would work that well. We definitely do not have a 3-4 end on our roster, though perhaps we could put corey williams and another DT at that position. KGB could be a blitzing backer I suppose.

[Fosco33]

I'm not sure it would work w/ the current personnel.

The 3-4 works well w/ large D-lineman who can take up more space and LBs who can blitz and shed blocks on running plays. KGB and Kampman are just average sized and our DT/NT is a probable question mark currently. If our pass D is getting burned and we start something like 1-4, it be interesting to try it out once in awhile and see if it throws off the QBs ability to read our blitzes though.

I seriously doubt that would ever happen.

[Fosco33]

This question got me thinking more...

I wonder if we could move into a 4-4 defense once in awhile. It would surely help our running defense and we could always shift into nickel coverage for an audible. Looking at our primary opponents, this could work well w/ Chicago and Minnesota.

There's always the possibility of getting burned by a speedy back or a deep route - but w/ two strong CBs (Woodson/Harris) and a better, more athletic Safety in Manuel it could work. The weakside LB would have to be very athletic - being able to move anywhere on the field. Not sure who this would be - maybe Hodge or Poppinga.

That leaves Carrol out of the main defense - for the most part. He could 'season' a bit more w/ Woodson and Harris as models for another year and take over if either of them move on or retire.

Thoughts on other schemes?

[jack's smirking revenge]

This question got me thinking more...

I wonder if we could move into a 4-4 defense once in awhile. It would surely help our running defense and we could always shift into nickel coverage for an audible. Looking at our primary opponents, this could work well w/ Chicago and Minnesota.

There's always the possibility of getting burned by a speedy back or a deep route - but w/ two strong CBs (Woodson/Harris) and a better, more athletic Safety in Manuel it could work. The weakside LB would have to be very athletic - being able to move anywhere on the field. Not sure who this would be - maybe Hodge or Poppinga.

That leaves Carrol out of the main defense - for the most part. He could 'season' a bit more w/ Woodson and Harris as models for another year and take over if either of them move on or retire.

Thoughts on other schemes?

4-4, that's interesting. I've always wondered why American Football is so rigid with its defensive structure. I'd like to see us consider alternate formations. Soccer formations adapt to the situation. A coach can adjust the formation based on protecting a lead, leading a full-on attack, or to drain time off of the clock. My guess is that it comes down to the roster and the fact that the majority of football players aren't that flexible. Fat D-linemen can't play LB if a team were to go 2-5-4 and most rosters couldn't accomodate that kind of flexibility.

I know it'll never happen, but your comment has raised my curiousity.

tyler

[packerpete]

This question got me thinking more...

I wonder if we could move into a 4-4 defense once in awhile. It would surely help our running defense and we could always shift into nickel coverage for an audible. Looking at our primary opponents, this could work well w/ Chicago and Minnesota.

There's always the possibility of getting burned by a speedy back or a deep route - but w/ two strong CBs (Woodson/Harris) and a better, more athletic Safety in Manuel it could work. The weakside LB would have to be very athletic - being able to move anywhere on the field. Not sure who this would be - maybe Hodge or Poppinga.

That leaves Carrol out of the main defense - for the most part. He could 'season' a bit more w/ Woodson and Harris as models for another year and take over if either of them move on or retire.

Thoughts on other schemes?

Barnett is the most athletic LB with coverage skills.

Carroll doesnt need "seasoning" from the bench. He has played too much for that, his only improvement will come from alternate role responsibility as the secondary shapes up with Harris and Woody starting on the corners with Collins and Manuel at S. Perhaps a change like Woody in the slot and carroll on the corner in nickle and dime situations would work too, Woody is a good blitzer. Perhaps the Manuel experiment fails and our S pass coverage limps along, this might allow for Woody to go to S and carroll moves back to start at corner, only time will tell.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

The 3-4 defense could work if couple of things happened.

1.) kgb moves to line backer(as partial said)
2.) a.j. hawk is the other edge blitzing backer.
3.) resign fat grady to put in the middle
4.) move pickett to kgb's old spot

[wist43]

First off, it will never happen... at least under this coaching staff.

And secondly, the Packers have only one pass rushing LB on the roster, and he's injuried (Poppinga).

Hawk and Hodge sandwiched in between two pass rushing LB's though would be intriguing. Fast, athletic LB's are easier to find than fast, athletic DL, so the argument has merit from that standpoint.

In the end, it's a nonstarter though.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I mean we have Hawk, Barnett and Taylor penciled in as starters but what if Hodge blows the doors off in camp?

Taylor is just a stop-gap player. If Hodge is a champ, Taylor takes a seat. The Packers aren't gonna redesign their defense to keep a generic linebacker on the field.

[woodbuck27]

I mean we have Hawk, Barnett and Taylor penciled in as starters but what if Hodge blows the doors off in camp?

Taylor is just a stop-gap player. If Hodge is a champ, Taylor takes a seat. The Packers aren't gonna redesign their defense to keep a generic linebacker on the field.

Besides all that Hawk and Hodge need a year's seasoning so the coaching staff can really see their NFL abilities.

[KYPack]

As many others have touched on, we don't have the personnel set to play a 3-4.

- You need a 3-4 nose tackle who can be very mobile and still be deadly against the run.

- 3-4 defensive ends are also a different animal. They must get upfield and still handle their run responsibilities. KGB, for instance, can't do this.

- Most important, you need that buck LB/DE. The guy who can cover passes, run the field, and still put his hand down and get down and dirty in the trenches. That buck linebacker is key, & we ain't got any. Some mention KGB, but, ah, no.

- Also who is gonna install this "D"? None of the D coaches have really coached that system

[PackerPro42]

The packers won't run a 3-4 because it doesn't fit their system and it never will. If they really want Hodge to start they'll either bump him or Barnett out to the outside linebacker position. I think that is what they should do any ways.

[Tony Oday]

I was actually saying will they use it say for 10 plays a game or something like that? We have the fat boys to handle the line and a bunch of talent at LB. Im not saying go from the 4-3 to the 3-4 Im just wondering maybe a couple plays during the game.

[jack's smirking revenge]

I was actually saying will they use it say for 10 plays a game or something like that? We have the fat boys to handle the line and a bunch of talent at LB. Im not saying go from the 4-3 to the 3-4 Im just wondering maybe a couple plays during the game.

Versatility like that does not exist in American Football, as I mentioned above with the soccer comparison. It's a great idea and something I'd love to see, but it would take a visionary coach and team to make it happen. If someone in the NFL were to figure it out, I think they'd be light years ahead of the competition. How can you compete with a team that can change its formation as necessary throughout the game? How do you gameplan against that? It's relatively easy to gameplan against a current NFL team, knowing that they're either 3-4 or 4-3. You can watch film and figure them out. Sure, the coverage packages change, but the base D doesn't.

I like your idea and wish it would be tested. Will it? Not anytime soon.

tyler

[KYPack]

I was actually saying will they use it say for 10 plays a game or something like that? We have the fat boys to handle the line and a bunch of talent at LB. Im not saying go from the 4-3 to the 3-4 Im just wondering maybe a couple plays during the game.

Versatility like that does not exist in American Football, as I mentioned above with the soccer comparison. It's a great idea and something I'd love to see, but it would take a visionary coach and team to make it happen. If someone in the NFL were to figure it out, I think they'd be light years ahead of the competition. How can you compete with a team that can change its formation as necessary throughout the game? How do you gameplan against that? It's relatively easy to gameplan against a current NFL team, knowing that they're either 3-4 or 4-3. You can watch film and figure them out. Sure, the coverage packages change, but the base D doesn't.

I like your idea and wish it would be tested. Will it? Not anytime soon.

tyler

There are some teams that do flop their base schemes

NE - I actually saw them have a set of 1 lineman 6 LB's and 4 DB's. The other team was truly befuddled. Bill B is a defensive genius and rotates all kinds of people in and out.

Pitt - They play a "hard 3-4" & Porter is the buck lb in the scheme. They will switch back and forth on the same series.

Cinn - They haven't done a bunch of exotic schemes, but will change up a lot this season. Marvin Lewis wants to takle advantage of "tweener" David Pollock. They will also flopp btw a 3-4 and 4-3 to better utilize Pollock's pass rushing ability and cover up for his deficiencies in pass coverage.

This trio (Bellichick, Cowher/LeBeau,& Lewis) do some very inventive stuff.

[jack's smirking revenge]

Thanks KY. Now that I think about it, I remember that NE and PIT did some interesting things on D, but I didn't know that they actually used different formations within the same game. The NE and Pit Ds have been thought of as stout defensive squads (with tough defensive coordinators) for some time. I think the reason speaks for itself. If you can be inventive on D and not predictable, you will befuddle offenses. I wish the Packer D was that flexible.

As you suggested, I guess it has to do with the bloodline--Belichick, Crennel, LeBeau, Lewis.... something in the water in the AFC.

tyler

[Partial]

I was actually saying will they use it say for 10 plays a game or something like that? We have the fat boys to handle the line and a bunch of talent at LB. Im not saying go from the 4-3 to the 3-4 Im just wondering maybe a couple plays during the game.

Versatility like that does not exist in American Football, as I mentioned above with the soccer comparison. It's a great idea and something I'd love to see, but it would take a visionary coach and team to make it happen. If someone in the NFL were to figure it out, I think they'd be light years ahead of the competition. How can you compete with a team that can change its formation as necessary throughout the game? How do you gameplan against that? It's relatively easy to gameplan against a current NFL team, knowing that they're either 3-4 or 4-3. You can watch film and figure them out. Sure, the coverage packages change, but the base D doesn't.

I like your idea and wish it would be tested. Will it? Not anytime soon.

tyler


Donnie Henderson, the former Jets DC and Ravens assistant on their superbowl team ran a hybrid 4-3 3-4. He switches it up because they had athletic guys like Ellis and Abraham as well as the dude from Miami in the middle. I was really, really, really hoping he'd come here as our DC. I really like his system since it's agressive but not outrageous.

edit - didn't read KY posts before posting it. In addition to Henderson, the other guys do the same. Though it is not nearly as often or as notable with the other coaches as it is with Henderson. They really ran two base defenses depending on how they wanted to bring heat.

[Fosco33]

Interesting article by a college DC on a 3-4/4-3 combo...

As others have mentioned, this won't happen w/ the current roster or coaches - but this info is still interesting none the less.

http://www.americanfootballmonthly.com/Subaccess/Magazine/1998/2ndQu'98/wyoming.html

[KYPack]

I was actually saying will they use it say for 10 plays a game or something like that? We have the fat boys to handle the line and a bunch of talent at LB. Im not saying go from the 4-3 to the 3-4 Im just wondering maybe a couple plays during the game.

Versatility like that does not exist in American Football, as I mentioned above with the soccer comparison. It's a great idea and something I'd love to see, but it would take a visionary coach and team to make it happen. If someone in the NFL were to figure it out, I think they'd be light years ahead of the competition. How can you compete with a team that can change its formation as necessary throughout the game? How do you gameplan against that? It's relatively easy to gameplan against a current NFL team, knowing that they're either 3-4 or 4-3. You can watch film and figure them out. Sure, the coverage packages change, but the base D doesn't.

I like your idea and wish it would be tested. Will it? Not anytime soon.

tyler


Donnie Henderson, the former Jets DC and Ravens assistant on their superbowl team ran a hybrid 4-3 3-4. He switches it up because they had athletic guys like Ellis and Abraham as well as the dude from Miami in the middle. I was really, really, really hoping he'd come here as our DC. I really like his system since it's agressive but not outrageous.

edit - didn't read KY posts before posting it. In addition to Henderson, the other guys do the same. Though it is not nearly as often or as notable with the other coaches as it is with Henderson. They really ran two base defenses depending on how they wanted to bring heat.

There is one other team that runs a lot of interesting hybred/combo defenses. Buddy's boy Rex Ryan is a real ionnovative DC for Baltimore. he runs some stuff i'm still trying to figure out. Ray Lewis and the huge Dline are phasing out. Ryan plays a 3-4 to a 4-3 to a "rover" scheme. It's the usual Raven 'thug" scheme, but with quick shifts. Terrell Suggs plays Buck, DE, or Mike. Ed Reed is the SS superstar. But the wildcard rover guy is Adalius Thomas. Thomas plays 5-6 positions from a supersized SS to DE, DT, & any LB position. Rex Ryan is like Buddy in the 21st century.

Seems like most of the real innovative stuff comes out of the AFC, eh?

[Partial]

Didn't he bring back the 4-6?

[Bossman641]

Didn't he bring back the 4-6?

Yea, Rex Ryan is a real innovative DC. It helps when you have the players that he does though. The Raven defense is a hybrid and switches between the 3-4, 4-3, and 46. It's got to be hell to try and scheme against that thing.

[MJZiggy]

As I recall, it gave us a few problems last season... :cry:

[KYPack]

Didn't he bring back the 4-6?

Yea, Rex Ryan is a real innovative DC. It helps when you have the players that he does though. The Raven defense is a hybrid and switches between the 3-4, 4-3, and 46. It's got to be hell to try and scheme against that thing.

Yeah, sorta. Ryan doesn't run the 46 like his daddy. He runs its' grandson, the fire zone. That's the set that still has Aaron Rodgers quaking in his boots. He overloads one side and everybody storms the QB. On the open (non-blitz) side, everyone covers the hot men with blitz control coverage. With Ryan's people, you only have a split second to make a play.

Adalius Thomas is a rover who can turn up anywhere. Once last year, i saw the Ravens line up in a 4-4. At the snap, Adalius Thomas dropped from an LB slot to play a monster safety in zone coverage. The Ravens are the only team running this stuff & it's confusing to opponents who only play the Ravens once a year.

[woodbuck27]

3 and 4 makes 7.

Always a good number.