Saints Hire Williams

[denverYooper]

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/37637909.html

Oh well...

[rbaloha1]

Not the end of the world. Haslett is fine.

[sheepshead]

MM must have a hard on for someone still playing.

[LL2]

Not the end of the world. Haslett is fine.

Who wants fine? I want to see a smash mouth defense next year that only allows 10 pints per game.

[MTPackerfan]

Not the end of the world. Haslett is fine.

Who wants fine? I want to see a smash mouth defense next year that only allows 10 pints per game.


that is probably going to take more than a new DC then. 8-)

[red]

Not the end of the world. Haslett is fine.

Who wants fine? I want to see a smash mouth defense next year that only allows 10 pints per game.

i hope to drink more then 10 pints a game next season

why limit something like that?

[LL2]

Not the end of the world. Haslett is fine.

Who wants fine? I want to see a smash mouth defense next year that only allows 10 pints per game.

i hope to drink more then 10 pints a game next season

why limit something like that?

Sounds like a plan! Some Guiness or another brand?

[Pugger]

If MM wanted Haslett, why hasn't he been hired yet? I too think MM has his eye on someone whose team is still playing. :pack:

[Spaulding]

Would be nice but not served at Lambeau - gotta hate Miller Lite. Speaking of beer - Wisconsin has nice up and coming breweries in Tyranea, Ale Asylum, etc.).

[HarveyWallbangers]

If MM wanted Haslett, why hasn't he been hired yet? I too think MM has his eye on someone whose team is still playing. :pack:

Because he's still a candidate for the St. Louis HC job. Why would he accept a DC offer from the Packers, if he still has a shot at being HC of St. Louis?

[Lurker64]

If MM wanted Haslett, why hasn't he been hired yet? I too think MM has his eye on someone whose team is still playing. :pack:

Haslett is also one of the final five candidates for the Rams HC job. If MM wanted Haslett, he probably could have worked out an agreement in principle if someone other than Haslett landed the Rams job.

But nobody is going to agree to a coordinator's job until they know they're not getting the head coaching job that they're in line for.

[gbpackfan]

Haslett or the secondary coach of the Eagles (I forget his name) (I'm too lazy to look it up right now) would be acceptable choices. I wanted G. Williams but I did worry about his ego.

[bigcoz75]

Would be nice but not served at Lambeau - gotta hate Miller Lite. Speaking of beer - Wisconsin has nice up and coming breweries in Tyranea, Ale Asylum, etc.).
That's a misconception, that you can only get miller lite at lambeau. I've delivered and set up guinness, harp and labatt blue taps there. also guinness, heineken, and corona in bottles.

[retailguy]

Why do you guys keep touting "all the guys" McCarthy has in mind and keep ingnoring Winston Moss? I see nothing yet to indicate that Moss isn't the guy.

Why hasn't he been named? Same reason as Haslett. If you're in the running for HC why would you accept a DC position?

[bobblehead]

Not the end of the world. Haslett is fine.

Who wants fine? I want to see a smash mouth defense next year that only allows 10 pints per game.

i hope to drink more then 10 pints a game next season

why limit something like that?

I'm not very good at those damn metric conversions....How many points are in a pint??

[Fritz]

Damned if he do, damned if he don't.

I guess what bothers me is the speculative nature of so much of the reporting. How do we know that Nolan was first choice of MM? Did he ever say so? Did someone who purports to know what MM is thinking (this seems to me a relatively new tactic - "someone who is familiar with so-and-so's thinking" is the new line I am seeing in these articles) tell someone that yeah, I know Mike, and this is what he would be thinking?

It's sloppy, it's desperate, it's the state of 24 hour reporting. It's generating words to fill up space. It's not even truthy. It's speculation written in a manner that suggests knowledge.

[Partial]

What the H? Why are we settling for these third and fourth options? Clearly the other guys have superior track records? Is Teets cheaping out? You've got to pay for talent. That's the only reason I can think that they'd choose another job over GBP.

Maybe the rumors about GB holding their coin close to their chest are true?


Fair or not, there's an impression that the leading candidates have given McCarthy a stiff-arm to the face. Mike Nolan interviewed with McCarthy and took Denver's DC position. Gregg Williams interviewed with McCarthy and today was named the Saints’ DC.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Packers don't have an owner hogging all of their profits. They've never been cheap when it comes to paying coaches and staff or maintaining their facilities. I'd guess money has ZERO to do with it. Nobody knows what McCarthy is thinking. Perhaps he's in the market for an up-and-coming coach, but interviewed Nolan, Williams, and Haslett as either a fallback or to "kick the tires." Like Fritz said, it's all pure speculation.

[Partial]

Packers don't have an owner hogging all of their profits. They've never been cheap when it comes to paying coaches and staff or maintaining their facilities. I'd guess money has ZERO to do with it. Nobody knows what McCarthy is thinking. Perhaps he's in the market for an up-and-coming coach, but interviewed Nolan, Williams, and Haslett as either a fallback or to "kick the tires." Like Fritz said, it's all pure speculation.

Is it possible the recession is putting the 50 mil they had in cash reserves in jeopardy.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Is it possible the recession is putting the 50 mil they had in cash reserves in jeopardy.

Doubt it. That reserve is over $100M now, and there are cost controls in the NFL. Teams split most revenue streams, and if the revenues aren't coming in, then the salary cap goes down (thus, controlling their expenditures). The salary cap has continued to go up, so that tells me the recession hasn't affected the NFL very much.

[Waldo]

What the H? Why are we settling for these third and fourth options? Clearly the other guys have superior track records? Is Teets cheaping out? You've got to pay for talent. That's the only reason I can think that they'd choose another job over GBP.

Maybe the rumors about GB holding their coin close to their chest are true?


Fair or not, there's an impression that the leading candidates have given McCarthy a stiff-arm to the face. Mike Nolan interviewed with McCarthy and took Denver's DC position. Gregg Williams interviewed with McCarthy and today was named the Saints’ DC.


The last DC turned around a bad defense and made it respectable. After 1 bad season riddled with injuries he was let go, viewed as the scapegoat. The last HC had an outstanding record, making it to the playoffs in virtually every season. After 1 bad season riddled with injuries he was let go, viewed as the scapegoat. The head trainer, after 1 season riddled with injuries, he was let go, viewed as a scapegoat. This will be the Packers 5th DC since the 2003 season, all fired (in lieu of HC hirings), one a scapegoat over a single play. Even going back further, the Majik man shreds his shoulder, and the coaching staff and front office is let go. We hired a HC that went 8-8 his first season and was fired that season in the recent past. GB is pink slip happy, and has been for a long time.

When we begin to show faith in our coaches and personnel staff after down years, and stop the impression (right or wrong) that we make coaches scapegoats when players get hurt, the top tier coaches may begin to show an interest in coming to GB. It isn't a money issue, getting fired does no favors to a guy with career ambitions (few coaches in the league don't dream of being a HC), and if you come to GB, you will get fired. GB hasn't had a DC go on to be a HC since.....

McCarthy and Thompson are just an injury to Aaron from being shown the door. It is the way it works in GB. All coaches know it, and because of it few, if any, coaches will view Green Bay as a top option.

[Freak Out]

Would be nice but not served at Lambeau - gotta hate Miller Lite. Speaking of beer - Wisconsin has nice up and coming breweries in Tyranea, Ale Asylum, etc.).
That's a misconception, that you can only get miller lite at lambeau. I've delivered and set up guinness, harp and labatt blue taps there. also guinness, heineken, and corona in bottles.

I had a ale brewed just for Curleys bar when I was there for the Rats game? What the hell is the name of it...?

[Waldo]

Is it possible the recession is putting the 50 mil they had in cash reserves in jeopardy.

Doubt it. That reserve is over $100M now, and there are cost controls in the NFL. Teams split most revenue streams, and if the revenues aren't coming in, then the salary cap goes down (thus, controlling their expenditures). The salary cap has continued to go up, so that tells me the recession hasn't affected the NFL very much.

I was under the impression that TT completed the long term reserve goal of a full season operating funds in the reserve, approximately 180-200M total.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Earlier in the year, it was reported the Packers have a $50M cash preserve and a $127M franchise preservation fund. Not sure if the $50M is included in the $127M.

[mission]

What the H? Why are we settling for these third and fourth options? Clearly the other guys have superior track records? Is Teets cheaping out? You've got to pay for talent. That's the only reason I can think that they'd choose another job over GBP.

Maybe the rumors about GB holding their coin close to their chest are true?


Fair or not, there's an impression that the leading candidates have given McCarthy a stiff-arm to the face. Mike Nolan interviewed with McCarthy and took Denver's DC position. Gregg Williams interviewed with McCarthy and today was named the Saints’ DC.


The last DC turned around a bad defense and made it respectable. After 1 bad season riddled with injuries he was let go, viewed as the scapegoat. The last HC had an outstanding record, making it to the playoffs in virtually every season. After 1 bad season riddled with injuries he was let go, viewed as the scapegoat. The head trainer, after 1 season riddled with injuries, he was let go, viewed as a scapegoat. This will be the Packers 5th DC since the 2003 season, all fired (in lieu of HC hirings), one a scapegoat over a single play. Even going back further, the Majik man shreds his shoulder, and the coaching staff and front office is let go. We hired a HC that went 8-8 his first season and was fired that season in the recent past. GB is pink slip happy, and has been for a long time.

When we begin to show faith in our coaches and personnel staff after down years, and stop the impression (right or wrong) that we make coaches scapegoats when players get hurt, the top tier coaches may begin to show an interest in coming to GB. It isn't a money issue, getting fired does no favors to a guy with career ambitions (few coaches in the league don't dream of being a HC), and if you come to GB, you will get fired. GB hasn't had a DC go on to be a HC since.....

McCarthy and Thompson are just an injury to Aaron from being shown the door. It is the way it works in GB. All coaches know it, and because of it few, if any, coaches will view Green Bay as a top option.

Good post. I largely disagree with it, but welcome to PackerRats :D

[HarveyWallbangers]

Good post. I largely disagree with it, but welcome to PackerRats

Seconded.

[Waldo]

What the H? Why are we settling for these third and fourth options? Clearly the other guys have superior track records? Is Teets cheaping out? You've got to pay for talent. That's the only reason I can think that they'd choose another job over GBP.

Maybe the rumors about GB holding their coin close to their chest are true?


Fair or not, there's an impression that the leading candidates have given McCarthy a stiff-arm to the face. Mike Nolan interviewed with McCarthy and took Denver's DC position. Gregg Williams interviewed with McCarthy and today was named the Saints’ DC.


The last DC turned around a bad defense and made it respectable. After 1 bad season riddled with injuries he was let go, viewed as the scapegoat. The last HC had an outstanding record, making it to the playoffs in virtually every season. After 1 bad season riddled with injuries he was let go, viewed as the scapegoat. The head trainer, after 1 season riddled with injuries, he was let go, viewed as a scapegoat. This will be the Packers 5th DC since the 2003 season, all fired (in lieu of HC hirings), one a scapegoat over a single play. Even going back further, the Majik man shreds his shoulder, and the coaching staff and front office is let go. We hired a HC that went 8-8 his first season and was fired that season in the recent past. GB is pink slip happy, and has been for a long time.

When we begin to show faith in our coaches and personnel staff after down years, and stop the impression (right or wrong) that we make coaches scapegoats when players get hurt, the top tier coaches may begin to show an interest in coming to GB. It isn't a money issue, getting fired does no favors to a guy with career ambitions (few coaches in the league don't dream of being a HC), and if you come to GB, you will get fired. GB hasn't had a DC go on to be a HC since.....

McCarthy and Thompson are just an injury to Aaron from being shown the door. It is the way it works in GB. All coaches know it, and because of it few, if any, coaches will view Green Bay as a top option.

Good post. I largely disagree with it, but welcome to PackerRats :D

It has been written about here and there by some talking heads, Kirwin has mentioned it on Sirius since Sanders was fired, and this morning National Football Post (Brandt and Bechta's site) noted it, though the writer didn't mention the Pack by name, he clearly was writing to Packer fans.


If your favorite team seems to be having trouble landing its first choice for a vacant job, whether it is general manager or defensive coordinator, take a look at how the last person left the position. It will tell you a great deal about how anxious a potential successor, with options, will be to follow them.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/2009/01/the-coaching-carousel-9/

[Fritz]

I'm trying to think of NFL franchises that don't operate in that manner. Maybe the Eagles...the Patriots...the Titans...franchises that are in the hunt not just for the playoffs but to get deep into the playoffs rather frequently.

That is to say, if you're a coach - any kind of coach - or GM in this league, and you work for a team that isn't a threat to go deep into the playoffs every couple of years, at least - you aren't going to have much job security.

And that would be the vast majority of teams in the NFL.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Considering Williams went to a team in a similar situation as Green Bay, I'm not sure the argument holds water. Both teams have coaches going into their 4th year who fired a DC who had been with him the first three years.

[Waldo]

Considering Williams went to a team in a similar situation as Green Bay, I'm not sure the argument holds water. Both teams have coaches going into their 4th year who fired a DC who had been with him the first three years.

The Saint' D has been ranked 13th, 25th, and 26th in scoring in his tenure, and was 28th the year before he took over.

The Packers D has been ranked 25th, 6th, and 22nd in scoring in his tenure, and was 19th the year before he took over.

The Saints D is/was a mess. The Packers were a good D on the rise derailed by injuries. The Saints D was riddled by injuries, but the Packers D lost it's best pass rusher, it's best player, and its MLB/leader. What would the Ravens D be without Suggs, Lewis, and Ngata? That is the same as us losing KGB, Barnett, and Jenkins.

[Cleft Crusty]

It was an interesting argument from Waldo, but I think it comes from being nearsighted. If you glance around the NFL, you will notice that job security is not one of the defining features of coaching. There is a lot of turnover and many coaches currently coaching have been fired multiple times from multiple positions. And yes, injuries lead to losses, and losses lead to getting fired.

[HarveyWallbangers]

The Saint' D has been ranked 13th, 25th, and 26th in scoring in his tenure, and was 28th the year before he took over.

The Packers D has been ranked 25th, 6th, and 22nd in scoring in his tenure, and was 19th the year before he took over.

New Orleans = 21th on average
Green Bay = 18th on average

Not a whole lot different. I imagine both HCs were hoping the defenses would be better after 3 years. Thus, the switch was made. Plus, both coaches are facing crucial seasons where their own behinds are on the line. It's not at all surprising that both teams decided to can their DCs.

[Brohm]

As far as $$, TT is the same guy that signed Sherman to an extension and promptly fired him. SHouldn't be an issue (one would hope).

[Waldo]

It was an interesting argument from Waldo, but I think it comes from being nearsighted. If you glance around the NFL, you will notice that job security is not one of the defining features of coaching. There is a lot of turnover and many coaches currently coaching have been fired multiple times from multiple positions. And yes, injuries lead to losses, and losses lead to getting fired.

It isn't, but job security is especially bad in GB.

Especially when every written word from the GB press has an undertone of fire the general manager. The average GB fan's hatred of their general manager is fairly unique, bordering on lunacy, I haven't seen any other fan base like ours, IMO is is borne solely from our press, since in the national press Thompson is quite highly regarded. Heck you'd think that he has a track record as bad as Millen with the way the average GB fan and reporter talks. I really have no idea why our press hates him as much as they do, did he come into town kicking kittens and running people's dogs over?

[Pugger]

The WI press may not like TT cuz he keeps everything to himself and he isn't the most charismatic person in the world = not a good interview for the media? :?:

[TheCheese]

It was an interesting argument from Waldo, but I think it comes from being nearsighted. If you glance around the NFL, you will notice that job security is not one of the defining features of coaching. There is a lot of turnover and many coaches currently coaching have been fired multiple times from multiple positions. And yes, injuries lead to losses, and losses lead to getting fired.

It isn't, but job security is especially bad in GB.

Especially when every written word from the GB press has an undertone of fire the general manager. The average GB fan's hatred of their general manager is fairly unique, bordering on lunacy, I haven't seen any other fan base like ours, IMO is is borne solely from our press, since in the national press Thompson is quite highly regarded. Heck you'd think that he has a track record as bad as Millen with the way the average GB fan and reporter talks. I really have no idea why our press hates him as much as they do, did he come into town kicking kittens and running people's dogs over?

I will agree on the paradox on how Ted is such a polarizing figure. I don't know what it is about him. I mean there are people out there who fricking hate this guy. I don't get it, as long as he keeps drafting the way he does I'm ok with him.

[Lurker64]

The funny thing is that if Thompson is eventually fired, history most likely will remember that Thompson was a good drafter who was conservative yet effective in free agency, who was run out of town by public pressure because he ran Favre out of town.

If we fire him, he won't have a hard time becoming GM of another team, and we would probably have a hard time finding a better GM.

[Waldo]

The funny thing is that if Thompson is eventually fired, history most likely will remember that Thompson was a good drafter who was conservative yet effective in free agency, who was run out of town by public pressure because he ran Favre out of town.

If we fire him, he won't have a hard time becoming GM of another team, and we would probably have a hard time finding a better GM.

That pressure was there from the day he was hired. It was worse in McCarthy's first season than it was this season, though it seemingly has gotten worse and worse since the day Favre retired.

[sheepshead]

The WI press may not like TT cuz he keeps everything to himself and he isn't the most charismatic person in the world = not a good interview for the media? :?:

I think he is one of the best general managers in the league. I dont think he needs to be front and center on this football team. That's the head coaches and team captains job. The problem is with fantasy football and internet sites with scouting reports, everyone thinks they can do that job better then he can.

(see tag line below)

[Fritz]

I think Waldo is correct that TT seems to inspire more ire than most GM's and that the GB press does not seem to like him. Lots of negative press, or at least lukewarm press last year.

I don't get it. I really can't think of another GM currently running a franchise that I'd rather have.

[Gunakor]

I'm fine with it. In fact, I'm glad. Why? Because McDermott is the best candidate out there, and he's not on the market until the Eagles are eliminated. The more teams that fill their DC positions before that happens, the less competition we have to deal with when bidding for his services.

[Fritz]

There seems to be a jelling of opinion here that McDermott would excite the packerrats, Moss would disappoint them, and Haslett would get a mixed reception.

[Bretsky]

f'ck

The Bikini Girls are not happy and are pondering going to the Saints

If Winston Moss is hired the Bikini Girls will most likely be gone forever

[Partial]

I'm fine with it. In fact, I'm glad. Why? Because McDermott is the best candidate out there, and he's not on the market until the Eagles are eliminated. The more teams that fill their DC positions before that happens, the less competition we have to deal with when bidding for his services.

These kind of statements bother me. While I think it is natural to want to give someone a shot and give fresh blood a try, I don't think you necessarily do that when the candidates available are studs. Greg Williams was the 2nd highest paid assistant in the NFL for a reason. He's been known as an absolute stud coordinator for a long, long time.

McDermott is completely unknown. How can he be the best candidate? Some guys work out - Spanulo - some don't - VB.

[Lurker64]

The thing I'm a little perturbed about is the notion that the Packers are "missing out" on their "first choices". So far there's been a lot of media speculation about who's the #1 pick for the job, but there hasn't been much in the way of hard and fast details or sources. Do we even know if the job was offered to Nolan or Williams?

If McCarthy didn't see fit to offer the gig to Williams or Nolan, it's likely that he thought there was something about either that didn't fit or wouldn't fit as well as somebody else. He may well be wrong in this estimation, but I'm in no position to speculate either way.

[Partial]

The thing I'm a little perturbed about is the notion that the Packers are "missing out" on their "first choices". So far there's been a lot of media speculation about who's the #1 pick for the job, but there hasn't been much in the way of hard and fast details or sources. Do we even know if the job was offered to Nolan or Williams?

If McCarthy didn't see fit to offer the gig to Williams or Nolan, it's likely that he thought there was something about either that didn't fit or wouldn't fit as well as somebody else. He may well be wrong in this estimation, but I'm in no position to speculate either way.

Rumor has it he did offer the job to both. They opted to decline and take other positions. I can understand Nolan as his reason appears legit, but my guess is they didn't pony up for Williams and got outbid.

[Lurker64]

Rumor has it he did offer the job to both. They opted to decline and take other positions. I can understand Nolan as his reason appears legit, but my guess is they didn't pony up for Williams and got outbid.

Rumors can insinuate all sorts of things, true, plausible, or laughable. Do we have any sort of confirmation, even from a journalist that they were offered the job? At the very least, if Nolan and Williams were offered the job, we probably would have heard something from their agents, trying to drum up more value for their clients, right?

I mean, I heard it was rumored that McCarthy offered the job to Flipper, the highly intelligent bottlenose dolphin, but was rebuffed since Green Bay didn't have enough coastline.

[Fritz]

While I agree with Lurker's reasoning, I prefer Partial's avatar.

[Partial]

Rumor has it he did offer the job to both. They opted to decline and take other positions. I can understand Nolan as his reason appears legit, but my guess is they didn't pony up for Williams and got outbid.

Rumors can insinuate all sorts of things, true, plausible, or laughable. Do we have any sort of confirmation, even from a journalist that they were offered the job? At the very least, if Nolan and Williams were offered the job, we probably would have heard something from their agents, trying to drum up more value for their clients, right?

I mean, I heard it was rumored that McCarthy offered the job to Flipper, the highly intelligent bottlenose dolphin, but was rebuffed since Green Bay didn't have enough coastline.

I've definitely read on either JSO or PackersNews that both declined the Packers offers. I'm fairly certain they were in different posts.

[mraynrand]

There seems to be a jelling of opinion here that McDermott would excite the packerrats, Moss would disappoint them, and Haslett would get a mixed reception.

Perhaps it's the idea the there might be something in the Jim Johnson coaching tree.

[pbmax]

I'm fine with it. In fact, I'm glad. Why? Because McDermott is the best candidate out there, and he's not on the market until the Eagles are eliminated. The more teams that fill their DC positions before that happens, the less competition we have to deal with when bidding for his services.

These kind of statements bother me. While I think it is natural to want to give someone a shot and give fresh blood a try, I don't think you necessarily do that when the candidates available are studs. Greg Williams was the 2nd highest paid assistant in the NFL for a reason. He's been known as an absolute stud coordinator for a long, long time.

McDermott is completely unknown. How can he be the best candidate? Some guys work out - Spanulo - some don't - VB.
Caution, Gregg Williams was the second highest paid assistant by the second lowest IQ owner in the NFL. He was paid that much to be Head Coach in waiting. Of course, when Gibbs retired, Little Napoleon decided he had to have an offensive minded head coach.

[pbmax]

The funny thing is that if Thompson is eventually fired, history most likely will remember that Thompson was a good drafter who was conservative yet effective in free agency, who was run out of town by public pressure because he ran Favre out of town.

If we fire him, he won't have a hard time becoming GM of another team, and we would probably have a hard time finding a better GM.

That pressure was there from the day he was hired. It was worse in McCarthy's first season than it was this season, though it seemingly has gotten worse and worse since the day Favre retired.
So the press in Wisconsin is more high pressure and negative than the press in Boston, New York, Washington, Pittsburgh or Dallas? I think Brett might have a word or two for you on that.

The only difference between Green Bay's record on head coaches is that its the GM making the decision, not the owner. As for assistants, Donatell had 4 years to demonstrate his skill. Had another chance in Atlanta. Is now coaching in coaching D in college. Slowik got the bum's rush, hid in the position coach weeds for several years to emerge as the D coordinator in Denver. Where he helped get the previously teflon and bulletproof Mike Shanahan fired. Ray Rhodes firing was so unjustified that he was never a head coach again.

Sanders had three years and with arguably better talent, wasn't appreciably better than the guy who got fired in New Orleans. Injuries hurt him no doubt, but New England and the Giants also suffered big injuries to starters and remained playoff viable and got 11 wins.

Do you know what a good coordinator looks like? He replaces his Hall of Fame QB with a rookie starter, loses starts from both starting tackles as well as his center, doesn't have a his starting RB healthy until the second half and doesn't have his anticipated starting third wide receiver healthy until the last six games. He takes that unit and puts in in the top ten of most offensive categories and top 5 in scoring.

You find a guy that good on the defensive side, and this team makes the playoffs.

[Waldo]

Does anybody know the differences between McDermott's "system" and Haslett's? Both are 4-3 defenses that incorporate zone blitz principles. Why is one magic voodoo scheme better than another?

Is their difference in success solely a difference in player personnel running the systems?

Haslett has gotten pretty high marks as a leader. His team never quit on him this season after Linehan was fired, and he did a commendable job given the circumstances with the Saints in '05, again his team never quit and played hard.

[Gunakor]

I'm fine with it. In fact, I'm glad. Why? Because McDermott is the best candidate out there, and he's not on the market until the Eagles are eliminated. The more teams that fill their DC positions before that happens, the less competition we have to deal with when bidding for his services.

These kind of statements bother me. While I think it is natural to want to give someone a shot and give fresh blood a try, I don't think you necessarily do that when the candidates available are studs. Greg Williams was the 2nd highest paid assistant in the NFL for a reason. He's been known as an absolute stud coordinator for a long, long time.

McDermott is completely unknown. How can he be the best candidate? Some guys work out - Spanulo - some don't - VB.

Part of the problem when hiring someone with years of experience is the fact that NFL teams have seen him and have figured out what he likes to do. McDermott would be somewhat of a suprise to other teams. You'd figure he'd run the same system as Jim Johnson as it's proven effective, but odds are there will be a few wrinkles added to make it different. Being an unknown could be a good thing, at least in the short term.

In any case, I'll take anyone from the Jim Johnson coaching tree for the defense. If you want the best, pick a guy who learned from the best. And Jim Johnson is the best in the business IMO.

[mission]

I'm fine with it. In fact, I'm glad. Why? Because McDermott is the best candidate out there, and he's not on the market until the Eagles are eliminated. The more teams that fill their DC positions before that happens, the less competition we have to deal with when bidding for his services.

These kind of statements bother me. While I think it is natural to want to give someone a shot and give fresh blood a try, I don't think you necessarily do that when the candidates available are studs. Greg Williams was the 2nd highest paid assistant in the NFL for a reason. He's been known as an absolute stud coordinator for a long, long time.

McDermott is completely unknown. How can he be the best candidate? Some guys work out - Spanulo - some don't - VB.

Part of the problem when hiring someone with years of experience is the fact that NFL teams have seen him and have figured out what he likes to do. McDermott would be somewhat of a suprise to other teams. You'd figure he'd run the same system as Jim Johnson as it's proven effective, but odds are there will be a few wrinkles added to make it different. Being an unknown could be a good thing, at least in the short term.

In any case, I'll take anyone from the Jim Johnson coaching tree for the defense. If you want the best, pick a guy who learned from the best. And Jim Johnson is the best in the business IMO.

Good point. I don't remember who was talking about this (Lurker or Patler maybe?) but the idea that fresh blood could bring a defensive scheme wrinkle that might be harder to stop for the next couple years while teams figure it out. Just like any student, there's a moment where you start thinking "i would do THAT differently" when sitting in the shadows of a teacher/mastermind/innovator.

There's no guarantee it all shakes out that way, but I think with some of our talent, plus a few additions, we could be a freakish, ball hawk defense.

[Iron Mike]

I think with some of our talent, plus a few additions, we could be a freakish, ball hawk defense.

<--IM recalls a game in the mid-90s, GB vs. DEN where a graphic was shown on the screen in the 4th quarter as to how many 4th quarter comebacks Elway had to that point. The very next play Reggie White planted Elway's ass into the frozen tundra. :lol:


*sigh* http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/ic/favre/articles/favre_24174613.shtml

[hoosier]

I think with some of our talent, plus a few additions, we could be a freakish, ball hawk defense.

<--IM recalls a game in the mid-90s, GB vs. DEN where a graphic was shown on the screen in the 4th quarter as to how many 4th quarter comebacks Elway had to that point. The very next play Reggie White planted Elway's ass into the frozen tundra. :lol:


*sigh* http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/ic/favre/articles/favre_24174613.shtml

The Shurmur article points to an important ingredient that has been missing from recent Packer defenses: a consistently strong pass rush. Shurmur's defenses had enough talent up front that they could usually generate enough pressure with just the front four. Not so with the current model. And I have yet to see anything that would make me confident that a Jim Johnson-type scheme would be much better, since it requires the linebackers and safeties to be capable blitzers. Clearly Hawk was an able blitzer once upon a time. Was it just the Sanders scheme that prevented them from becoming effective blitzers? Is it a skill Barnett, Bigby and others can learn, or does something just not click with them?

[Waldo]

I disagree that we haven't been able to generate front 4 pressure. Last year unfortunately we lost two of our top 3 (IMO our top 2) pass rushers, Monty just isn't very good at rushing as a reserve and Thompson was too raw. Even though he doesn't sack a lot, Jenkins wreaks havoc in the backfield and forces the QB out of his comfort zone. Much more than Kamp. KGB was a considerably better pass rusher than Kamp on a per snap basis.

Next year we'll get Jenkins back, he is the most important piece. We need to fill KGB's void, but there are options. If Suggs hits FA and TT gets lucky, he could be the answer. There are a few good pass rushers at #9 that could provide a rush immediately in the role that KGB was in. Those guys to would also be able to grow into more complete players, either as ends or SLB/RuDE's. If not there are several RuDE's available in the 3rd-4th round area that aren't good for much more than a RuDE and ST player. A DT that can rush would be a nice add too, there are a few that might be available in FA, and I'm sure that DT will be addressed via the draft even if a FA is brought in.

[pbmax]

Haslett has run 3-4 and 4-3 systems and knows LeBeau's and Dom Capers zone blitz scheme. But in his time at NO and St Louis, he ran 4-3.

McDermott is riskier, there is no getting around that. Like Sanders, he has never called his own D. But unlike Sanders, he is on the mind of most teams in the NFL when it comes time to hire for defense and Reid hasn't wanted him to leave. This may ultimately mean little, as other hot coordinators/staff have failed too.

But Jim Johnson's scheme isn't predicated on the zone blitz, if by zone blitz you mean rushing from a LB or CB and dropping a big body into a zone. He apparently uses so many types of blitzes, that people have been unable to come up with a name for it yet, besides "Jim Johnson's system".

As for having capable blitzers, that goes both ways. You can blitz a linebacker with 4 D lineman and have 5 one on one matchups in pass rush. Or the O line can choose to double team someone and use a RB to block the LB. Unless you have a dominant pass rusher (say KGB prior to injury), that usually favors the O line.

Johnson seems to prefer to overload, that is, send someone from a side where there is not a body to block him. Then it isn't a matter of physically defeating the opponent, but winning a foot race.

[pbmax]

I think with some of our talent, plus a few additions, we could be a freakish, ball hawk defense.

<--IM recalls a game in the mid-90s, GB vs. DEN where a graphic was shown on the screen in the 4th quarter as to how many 4th quarter comebacks Elway had to that point. The very next play Reggie White planted Elway's ass into the frozen tundra. :lol:


*sigh* http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/ic/favre/articles/favre_24174613.shtml
And that is the conundrum that is the draft. Teams have wasted more picks on pass rushing D lineman in the first two rounds than any other position, perhaps QBs. If we had a Reggie White still, we would all look smarter.

[HarveyWallbangers]

It will be interesting to see whose defense does better next year: Denver, New Orleans, or Green Bay.

[Fritz]

Because defensive linemen are such risky picks, it makes sense to go the TT route and try to get quantity, hoping the odds will help you.

I wonder what percentage of first round defensive linemen are busts, compared to other positions?

And having seen so many FSU defensive linemen bust in the NFL, I fear the Packers taking another in the first round.

[rbaloha1]

And having seen so many FSU defensive linemen bust in the NFL, I fear the Packers taking another in the first round.

Jamal Reynolds any one. This years crop is poor. Free agency is a better option for this particular year.

Trading down is starting to become a viable option given the current crop of players likely available at #9.

[Waldo]

And having seen so many FSU defensive linemen bust in the NFL, I fear the Packers taking another in the first round.

Jamal Reynolds any one. This years crop is poor. Free agency is a better option for this particular year.

Trading down is starting to become a viable option given the current crop of players likely available at #9.

There are two slated DE FA's of note, Suggs and Peppers. The chance that both hit the FA market is very, very low, and there's a good chance that neither do. We'll be competing with at least 16 other teams if either hits the market. Peppers is a true RDE, Suggs is an elephant OLB and better off playing SLB/RuDE in a 4-3.

Reynolds probably wouldn't have been a bust if he wouldn't have tore up his knee and he was used as a RuDE or elephant/joker OLB instead of trying to use him as an every down 4-3 DE, which he was too small for.

Brown and Orapko both are better suited as RuDE's or elephant/joker OLB's than every down DE's, though both have the frame to add the size necessary to be an every down DE.

[Fritz]

Waldo, didn't Reynolds tear up his knee after his first year, or no?

And what is an "RuDE" "Joker" linebacker?

Please help me to understand.

[rbaloha1]

And having seen so many FSU defensive linemen bust in the NFL, I fear the Packers taking another in the first round.

Jamal Reynolds any one. This years crop is poor. Free agency is a better option for this particular year.

Trading down is starting to become a viable option given the current crop of players likely available at #9.

Recall the great Ron Wolf admitted he caved into pressure by drafting a much needed pass rusher. (Went away from his conventional wisdom of selecting the best available player. KGB also had not displayed superior pass rushing abilities until after Reynolds was drafted.) Basically Reynolds was a reach.

In your opinion are any of these playes a reach at #9?

There are two slated DE FA's of note, Suggs and Peppers. The chance that both hit the FA market is very, very low, and there's a good chance that neither do. We'll be competing with at least 16 other teams if either hits the market. Peppers is a true RDE, Suggs is an elephant OLB and better off playing SLB/RuDE in a 4-3.

Reynolds probably wouldn't have been a bust if he wouldn't have tore up his knee and he was used as a RuDE or elephant/joker OLB instead of trying to use him as an every down 4-3 DE, which he was too small for.

Brown and Orapko both are better suited as RuDE's or elephant/joker OLB's than every down DE's, though both have the frame to add the size necessary to be an every down DE.

[Waldo]

RuDE = situational pass rusher a la KGB

Joker/Elephant OLB = Weakside 3-4 OLB. Joker is usually the phrase used when the player is in a 4-3/hybrid system, the Joker is the wildcard that makes the 3-4/4-3 switch, a guy that rushes hands down or up and switches alignment, and occasionally drops into shallow coverage (Jason Taylor/Terrell Suggs are examples). Elephant OLB is the 3-4 term for the player the pass rush OLB (Demarcus Ware/Shawn Merriman are examples).

The Giants used Kiwi in a similar role in '07, he played SLB in base sets (Poppinga) and RuDE in pass rush sets (KGB). If we drafted a guy like Brown I would expect this to be his use. I am surprised that Jeremy Thompson isn't being used this way, as he had a good amount of pass coverage experience in college. It is pretty rare for a elephant OLB to have any coverage experience on draft day, generally they are small, fast DE's in college with no coverage experience when they get to the pros. This is exactly what Poppinga was, a small college DE, he actually played both SLB and RuDE at times this last season, but he was not a high first round caliber pass rusher.

[Fritz]

Thank you.

[Guiness]

Caution, Gregg Williams was the second highest paid assistant by the second lowest IQ owner in the NFL. He was paid that much to be Head Coach in waiting. Of course, when Gibbs retired, Little Napoleon decided he had to have an offensive minded head coach.

Geez - I can't even begin to imagine trying to rank NFL owner's smarts. I think it was Lamar Hunt who made the comment about NFL owners being a group of rich idiots, himself included.

I guess you were smart putting Snyder as #2, and leave #1 up to our imagination. Does you IQ actually drop as you get older and senile?

[Fritz]

Caution, Gregg Williams was the second highest paid assistant by the second lowest IQ owner in the NFL. He was paid that much to be Head Coach in waiting. Of course, when Gibbs retired, Little Napoleon decided he had to have an offensive minded head coach.

Geez - I can't even begin to imagine trying to rank NFL owner's smarts. I think it was Lamar Hunt who made the comment about NFL owners being a group of rich idiots, himself included.

I guess you were smart putting Snyder as #2, and leave #1 up to our imagination. Does you IQ actually drop as you get older and senile?

Why not? This is a discussion board.

I'd give the top spot to William Clay Ford. Go Bill!

[Guiness]

Geez - I can't even begin to imagine trying to rank NFL owner's smarts. I think it was Lamar Hunt who made the comment about NFL owners being a group of rich idiots, himself included.

I guess you were smart putting Snyder as #2, and leave #1 up to our imagination. Does you IQ actually drop as you get older and senile?

Why not? This is a discussion board.

I'd give the top spot to William Clay Ford. Go Bill!

Really? I actually don't consider him that big an idiot, more foolish for trusting that he had the right person in the job. He left it to his 'football people' it just so happens that his football people fooled him into believing they knew what they were doing.

[Fritz]

Geez - I can't even begin to imagine trying to rank NFL owner's smarts. I think it was Lamar Hunt who made the comment about NFL owners being a group of rich idiots, himself included.

I guess you were smart putting Snyder as #2, and leave #1 up to our imagination. Does you IQ actually drop as you get older and senile?

Why not? This is a discussion board.

I'd give the top spot to William Clay Ford. Go Bill!

Really? I actually don't consider him that big an idiot, more foolish for trusting that he had the right person in the job. He left it to his 'football people' it just so happens that his football people fooled him into believing they knew what they were doing.

Guin, that guy's owned the team since 1964 and he has zero championships to show for it. That's forty four years of trusting the wrong people, for long periods of time, then hiring new incompetent people who he then trusts for long periods of time.

Maybe it's not a lack of intelligence, sure. Maybe it's a psychological issue. But he's a sucky owner if you're interested in having a winning team. Wayne Fontes was his best coach in the last thirty five years!