CNNSI.com Take on Switch to 3-4

[Farley Face]

I hadn't seen this posted yet. Encouraging. Bucky on the Pack Kool-Aid. I'll take a swig.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/bucky_brooks/01/23/scouts.buzz/index.html

Thought so. :) http://www.packers.com/history/all_time_roster/player/brooks_bucky_1995-96,1997/

[Jimx29]

http://i41.tinypic.com/2hy9hk6.gif

[texaspackerbacker]

It makes a lot of sense. What he said about personnel seems completely valid, especially the comparison to other players Capers has coached. This article should help shut up those claiming Barnett and Hawk wouldn't be suitable. I'm beginning to get psyched up for the idea of Kampman at OLB, although I'm still not convinced they will switch him from end. If they do, then the Packers main area of need in the draft might be a true 3-4 DE. We've had a bunch of talk about pass rushers and nose tackles, but very little about heavier DEs. This kinda sets the stage for Thompson coming up with another pick nobody expects.

The zone blitzing thing is about as high risk as there is, and I really don't like the way the article says Capers favors zone coverage. You can do 3-4 easily enough with man coverage, and Capers did say he adapts his scheme to personnel, so maybe he won't use much zone.

All in all, it should be an interesting camp and preseason, and, I think, a great season.

Keep that Kool-Aid coming.

[RashanGary]

Tex, I thought you wanted us to say with the 4-3 and wanted no part of that 3-4 shit.

[KYPack]

.

The zone blitzing thing is about as high risk as there is, and I really don't like the way the article says Capers favors zone coverage. You can do 3-4 easily enough with man coverage, and Capers did say he adapts his scheme to personnel, so maybe he won't use much zone.

All in all, it should be an interesting camp and preseason, and, I think, a great season.

Keep that Kool-Aid coming.

Tex, you really can't play Capers defense with Man cover. It just isn't built that way. That's the whole point of zone blitz, you play zone behind the blitz.

There are aspects of Capers scheme that will make you comfortable. They don't really blitz as much as people think. They rush 4 and cover with 7 a lot. But the 4 they send aren't always the traditional pass rushers. I've seen Capers send both corners, a LB, and only one traditional DL. The other DL's cover instead of rushing, so you still have 7 men in cover but their numbers are funny.

I do wonder about Barnett in this D for one reason. The Jack LB in this scheme takes on OL a lot, espec. guards. Nick has trouble shedding the blocks of lineman (something he didn't have to do much in the Bates shell). He is better suited to the Mike. I, too think our ILB's will be fine.

We have two areas of concern.

- We don't have a 3-4 NT. Pickett is a solid player, but he's a classic 4-3 three technique DT. A NT? Don't think so.

- A press cover corner like Al Harris is a fish out of water. The CB's play in a lot of 3-3 situations. His base technique can't be press, he's too far from his coverage area. Al is pretty much press only. I just can't see where he fits in this scheme. Tramon williams is more comfortable in off technique, he seems better suited to this scheme.

[Cheesehead Craig]

I do wonder about Barnett in this D for one reason. The Jack LB in this scheme takes on OL a lot, espec. guards. Nick has trouble shedding the blocks of lineman (something he didn't have to do much in the Bates shell). He is better suited to the Mike. I, too think our ILB's will be fine.
One of the things going for Nick is that OL in general don't play against a 3-4 very often so they get confused on who to block. That's where I think Nick can use his speed to be a disruptor.

It's all speculation at this point anyways.

[rbaloha1]

The writer makes the transition appear so simple. Its obvious the writer watched few Packer games this season.

Asking bump and run corners play zone coverage may not be the best use of personnel. Hope Capers keeps the corners in bump and run the majority of snaps.

Lets wait for the preseason.

[pbmax]

The Jack LB in this scheme takes on OL a lot, espec. guards. Nick has trouble shedding the blocks of lineman (something he didn't have to do much in the Bates shell). He is better suited to the Mike. I, too think our ILB's will be fine.
KYP, which Outside LB is the Jack? I was thinking Barnett's speed and size (if he really is close to 240) would allow him to play the WOLB. But he does not look as strong as say Harrison in playing with leverage against a big.

You don't have to take on every block, Greg Lloyd spent a good part of the Super Bowl going around not through Cowboys lineman to make TFLs. But in some scenarios, you are going to have to man up and take that guy on if there is help available.

[bobblehead]

Hmmm....makes ya wonder if Harris has any trade value left and would we take Jenkins if he is there at 9??

[Lurker64]

KYP, which Outside LB is the Jack? I was thinking Barnett's speed and size (if he really is close to 240) would allow him to play the WOLB. But he does not look as strong as say Harrison in playing with leverage against a big.

The Jack is an ILB, the Jack (or "Ted" sometimes, the terminology is not standard) has the responsibility to occupy blockers inside so that the Mike can run sideline to sideline unmolested and make plays. In the variant of the 3-4 we're going to be running (basically a branch of the Phillips-LeBeau tree), Hawk and Barnett have the perfect size to be playing inside, but are a little small for OLBs.

As I see it, right now we're one good DE and one good WOLB short of having the (at least starting) personnel to run this scheme. It's conceivable that Jeremy Thompson could play the WOLB spot though.

[texaspackerbacker]

Tex, I thought you wanted us to say with the 4-3 and wanted no part of that 3-4 shit.

I'm not tied to the 4-3, just to strictly limiting the amount of blitzing--and also to man coverage instead of zone.

As I said in other posts, sending four--three linemen and one of the four LBs, that I don't even count as blitzing. I like the fact that you create a situation with the 3-4 where they don't know where the rush is coming from, but you do so without sending additional people. The zone blitz is just a more extreme/high risk case of the same thing. I don't really like it, but as a rare surprise, it has its place.

You can go crazy sending a bunch of people in either the 4-3 or the 3-4, but I don't think Capers is likely to do that--hopefully not much, anyway.

It sounds like he might use more zone coverage than I like, but on the other hand, there is his statement that he adapts scheme to personnel. I also like what he said about disguising coverages.

The bottom line to me, as I said when Capers was first announced as the choice is that it could have been much worse--Williams, McDermott, etc.

The other thing I said right from the start is that the silver lining in the injury-ruined season is that we now do have plenty of LB depth as needed for the 3-4.

I'm not above flip-flopping, but this isn't really a case of that.

[TennesseePackerBacker]

The Jack LB in this scheme takes on OL a lot, espec. guards. Nick has trouble shedding the blocks of lineman (something he didn't have to do much in the Bates shell). He is better suited to the Mike. I, too think our ILB's will be fine.
KYP, which Outside LB is the Jack? I was thinking Barnett's speed and size (if he really is close to 240) would allow him to play the WOLB. But he does not look as strong as say Harrison in playing with leverage against a big.

You don't have to take on every block, Greg Lloyd spent a good part of the Super Bowl going around not through Cowboys lineman to make TFLs. But in some scenarios, you are going to have to man up and take that guy on if there is help available.

Jack is the other ILB in the 3-4, think Bart Scott. The traditional name for a middle linebacker is of course, mike.

[texaspackerbacker]

Hmmm....makes ya wonder if Harris has any trade value left and would we take Jenkins if he is there at 9??

Keep in mind, it was a mere writer dissing Harris, not Capers or McCarthy. Harris was a nickel back with the Eagles before coming to Green Bay, so I would assume he played a lot of zone there. More importantly, though, is the likelihood that Harris will still be manning up most of the time, just as he did with the old scheme.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Hmmm....makes ya wonder if Harris has any trade value left and would we take Jenkins if he is there at 9??

Mel has us taking jenkins.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Hmmm....makes ya wonder if Harris has any trade value left and would we take Jenkins if he is there at 9??

Keep in mind, it was a mere writer dissing Harris, not Capers or McCarthy. Harris was a nickel back with the Eagles before coming to Green Bay, so I would assume he played a lot of zone there. More importantly, though, is the likelihood that Harris will still be manning up most of the time, just as he did with the old scheme.

Why would you assume a nickleback played zone. I certainly dont' recall that.

More importantly, what he did then has no bearing on now as Harris is much older and his speed, which was never great to begin with, has started the inevitable decline.

[texaspackerbacker]

What I'm ASSUMING is that an Eagles DB in the Jim Johnson scheme would likely be playing a lot of zone coverage--corner, nickel, whatever.

I'm also assuming you don't know how to spell "nickel".

[wist43]

Unfortunately, I have been to busy to weigh in much on this subject, and being an advocate of the 3-4 I should be more enthusiastic... however :)

I just don't like what I'm hearing out of the team wrt how they're viewing their current players and any potential switch in base defense/scheme.

Kampman is not a LB, Hawk and Barnett or both ineffective blitzers, Poppinga is uninstinctive, Montgomery has to be shown the door, Jolly can play end in a 3-4, but isn't a great fit, Hunter can maybe transition to LB, but it's not like anyone is expecting him to be a starter, or a difference maker.

In the end, in Green Bay version of the hybrid, will most likely morph into almost an exclusive 4-3 as next season wears on... unless TT sells out and makes a committment turning over the defensive side of the ball almost enmasse.

[Patler]

I just don't like what I'm hearing out of the team wrt how they're viewing their current players and any potential switch in base defense/scheme.


What have they really said? Not much.

MM said generally he thinks they have players, that Kampman and Jenkins will like it, that Kampman may not always line up with his hand down, and that Pickett will play nose. Of course he is putting a positive spin on it, what would you expect him to do?

Capers specifically avoided any comments about how the players would fit, other than saying some players were "good football players" and that his job was to make sure they had opportunities to be good football players.

Until training camp and preseason, what any of them say is inconsequential.

[bobblehead]

wrong quote

[bobblehead]

Hmmm....makes ya wonder if Harris has any trade value left and would we take Jenkins if he is there at 9??

Mel has us taking jenkins.

Well, that probably rules out jenkins then :P

[Harlan Huckleby]

I was listening to Chmura's radio show Sunday morning, he had some interesting thoughts on 3-4:

He thinks that Kampman is unsuited to play either on the line or as a rush linebacker. Chewy claims Kampman's game as a DE works only 1-1 with a tackle, where he lines-up on outside shoulder and has space to work with. IN a 3-4, Kampman has to line straight-up on the tackle, and frequently gets a chip-block from the tight end too. Kampman is too light, he'll get blown off the ball. I suppose this is what everybody has been saying. It finally sunk in with me, hearing Chewy explain it.

Also, Chewy thinks Kampman is just not fast enough to handle LB coverage, he'll be worse than Poppinga. The solution is to trade Kampman.

Chewy also made the point that with 11 teams running the 3-4, the alignment will offer very little in the way of novelty. Teams are now well prepared for it.
And another factor I thought about is that with so many teams switching to the 3-4, the market for players suited to that defense will get tight.

Maybe the PAckers are late getting on the 3-4 bandwagon.

[Gunakor]

Maybe the PAckers are late getting on the 3-4 bandwagon.

We hired a knowledgeable defensive coach who knows what he needs to succeed. With as many 3-4 type players potentially hitting the market this year, coupled with the number of 3-4 type players entering this years draft, I think we might have gotten on that bandwagon right on time. It's going to be an interesting couple of months coming up.

[The Shadow]

I think it more lekely that Kamp will add 10 -15 lbs and remain at end.

[Waldo]

I was listening to Chmura's radio show Sunday morning, he had some interesting thoughts on 3-4:

He thinks that Kampman is unsuited to play either on the line or as a rush linebacker. Chewy claims Kampman's game as a DE works only 1-1 with a tackle, where he lines-up on outside shoulder and has space to work with. IN a 3-4, Kampman has to line straight-up on the tackle, and frequently gets a chip-block from the tight end too. Kampman is too light, he'll get blown off the ball. I suppose this is what everybody has been saying. It finally sunk in with me, hearing Chewy explain it.

Also, Chewy thinks Kampman is just not fast enough to handle LB coverage, he'll be worse than Poppinga. The solution is to trade Kampman.

Chewy also made the point that with 11 teams running the 3-4, the alignment will offer very little in the way of novelty. Teams are now well prepared for it.
And another factor I thought about is that with so many teams switching to the 3-4, the market for players suited to that defense will get tight.

Maybe the PAckers are late getting on the 3-4 bandwagon.

At one time most teams in the league used the 3-4, the 4-3 can be view as a novelty just as much. The 46 and Tampa-2 are fad defenses, the 3-4 is not a fad defense.

The concept that players that are poor fits are silly. Just about every player that fits in a 4-3 fits in 3-4, but not vice versa, the range of acceptiable players is much greater in a 3-4. The ones that don't fit generally aren't very good to begin with.

Of course Kamp will be worse at coverage than Pops, he also will probably never be asked to man up on a guy so it doesn't matter. Zone coverage is used because the OLB's suck at coverage. They are drafted for their ability to get to the passer and play the run, not to be DB's.

[rbaloha1]

Thrilled Chewy made the Kampy assessment. Expecting Kampy to play olb is a stretch.

Kampy played heavier under Sherman. Bulk up and play Kampy as left de.

Trading Kampy is only worthwhile for a first round pick. Although prefer Kampy staying in GB.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think it more lekely that Kamp will add 10 -15 lbs and remain at end.

I think this is the only option for him to stay in GB.

But will it work?

[Patler]

I was listening to Chmura's radio show Sunday morning, he had some interesting thoughts on 3-4:

He thinks that Kampman is unsuited to play either on the line or as a rush linebacker. Chewy claims Kampman's game as a DE works only 1-1 with a tackle, where he lines-up on outside shoulder and has space to work with. IN a 3-4, Kampman has to line straight-up on the tackle, and frequently gets a chip-block from the tight end too. Kampman is too light, he'll get blown off the ball. I suppose this is what everybody has been saying. It finally sunk in with me, hearing Chewy explain it.

Also, Chewy thinks Kampman is just not fast enough to handle LB coverage, he'll be worse than Poppinga. The solution is to trade Kampman.

Chewy also made the point that with 11 teams running the 3-4, the alignment will offer very little in the way of novelty. Teams are now well prepared for it.
And another factor I thought about is that with so many teams switching to the 3-4, the market for players suited to that defense will get tight.

Maybe the PAckers are late getting on the 3-4 bandwagon.

It's always interesting to listen to former players' comments. Some know what they are talking about, some just seem to want to talk. I haven't heard enough of Chmura to know where he falls, but from what little I have heard, he seems to always be negative about the Packers. What do you think, HH? Do you hear him often?

Kampman is a bit of an odd player. He never seems "right" for anything, but he plays well. It seems everyone has forgotten that when Bates came and split the D ends wide, initially everyone said it would be the end of Kampman because he was not quick enough and was too slow. He could never get to the QB from that far away. Now, apparently Chmura has decided that it is the only alignment Kampman can be effective in. I have to admit, I initially thought the 3-4 would be the end of Kampman in GB, and even said they should trade him. But as I think about it, I'm not so sure. I think it is a mistake to "assume" anything about what Kampman can or can not do.

Will Kampman be worse than Poppinga as a linebacker in a 3-4? I'm not sure. Poppinga is a D-lineman converted to linebacker. Kampman is a linbacker converted to D-lineman. A 3-4 outside linebacker is sort of a cross between a linebacker and a DE. Kampman is perhaps "too much of a lineman" for the position. Poppinga maybe too little. Based on getting the most out of what they have, I would put my money on Kampman.

Most of the coaches (even retired ones) say there are more players available overall for a 3-4 than for a 4-3, so how does the fact that 11 of 32 teams will be running the 3-4 hurt the Packers? They would still seem to be better off than having to look for players in a 4-3, if the coaches are to be believed.

[wist43]

I tend to agree with chewy about Kamp... I see him as strictly a 4-3 end, and since he is the best player on the defense, I don't see how they can better utilize him as a LB. It just isn't a good fit for Kamp.

Same can be said for Hawk and Barnett... just not good fits for a 3-4 scheme.

So those are 3 of your highest paid, highest drafted guys on that side of the ball, and to make them fit a 3-4, you have to apologize all day long... so, given that they have announced that they will be running a hybrid, as I've said, I can easily see where that "hybrid" morphs right back into a base 4-3, simply b/c that's where the Packers are invested.

Square pegs in round holes... Unless TT throws caution to the wind and sells out in an attempt to acquire true 3-4 personnel... which of course, he's not going to do.

Add it all up, and I'm expecting a lot more 4-3, than 3-4.

[Patler]

Add it all up, and I'm expecting a lot more 4-3, than 3-4.

Could very well be, and that isn't necessarily a bad thing. A transition rather than abrupt switch should yield better results.

[sharpe1027]

Kampman:

- He is a tweener and will not make it in the NFL. Wrong

- He will not hold up at the point of attack. Wrong

- He does not have enough speed to get consistent pressure on the QB. Wrong

- He hit his maximum ability after his first few seasons. Wrong.

- He is purely a hustle guy and will never be an elite player. Wrong.

- He is only suitable for a 4-3 defense. TBD.

I wouldn't bet against the man.

[sharpe1027]

I tend to agree with chewy about Kamp... I see him as strictly a 4-3 end, and since he is the best player on the defense, I don't see how they can better utilize him as a LB. It just isn't a good fit for Kamp.

Same can be said for Hawk and Barnett... just not good fits for a 3-4 scheme.

So those are 3 of your highest paid, highest drafted guys on that side of the ball, and to make them fit a 3-4, you have to apologize all day long... so, given that they have announced that they will be running a hybrid, as I've said, I can easily see where that "hybrid" morphs right back into a base 4-3, simply b/c that's where the Packers are invested.

Square pegs in round holes... Unless TT throws caution to the wind and sells out in an attempt to acquire true 3-4 personnel... which of course, he's not going to do.

Add it all up, and I'm expecting a lot more 4-3, than 3-4.

I agree that you don't force players fit a scheme that they are not capable of succeeding in. You design your schemes with your players in mind. That, however, doesn't necessarily mean a 4-3. I am pretty sure that there plenty of adjustments that they can make within a 3-4 to account for their personnel.

[Harlan Huckleby]

It's always interesting to listen to former players' comments. Some know what they are talking about, some just seem to want to talk. I haven't heard enough of Chmura to know where he falls, but from what little I have heard, he seems to always be negative about the Packers. What do you think, HH? Do you hear him often?

I hear him often, he's a very down-to-earth, smart guy. I suppose overall he is a little negative towards the packers, although not like Harry Sydney.



Will Kampman be worse than Poppinga as a linebacker in a 3-4? I'm not sure. Poppinga is a D-lineman converted to linebacker.


I think the thing for Kampman is to lose 10 pounds in the offseason so he can play linebacker. IF that doesn't work in minicamp, he needs to gain-back 30 pounds so they can try him over the tackle. Have the bags of reeses cups and frozen custard ready-to-go just in case.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Most of the coaches (even retired ones) say there are more players available overall for a 3-4 than for a 4-3, so how does the fact that 11 of 32 teams will be running the 3-4 hurt the Packers? They would still seem to be better off than having to look for players in a 4-3, if the coaches are to be believed.

maybe this is true. But it has to be easier to acquire big DEs when the 3-4 is rare.

[Patler]

Most of the coaches (even retired ones) say there are more players available overall for a 3-4 than for a 4-3, so how does the fact that 11 of 32 teams will be running the 3-4 hurt the Packers? They would still seem to be better off than having to look for players in a 4-3, if the coaches are to be believed.

maybe this is true. But it has to be easier to acquire big DEs when the 3-4 is rare.

It has been interesting hearing and reading what the coaches have to say about it. For the 3-4 DEs they all say you can use the DTs that many teams have who are decent but not great in a 4-3, and for the OLBs you use the "tweeners" that are so abundant, too big and/or too slow for 4-3 linebackers and too small for 4-3 DEs. The rank and file won't be all pros, but at least serviceable. So many of the 3-4 proponents say it uses the players that are common, whereas the 4-3 uses too many that are uncommon. I don't know, but sometimes they make sense.

I have heard/read a lot of comments from coaches that the hardest position to fill is the 4-3 DE. There just aren't a lot of good ones available. Interestingly, GB had at least one in Kampman, and maybe one in Jenkins; so maybe now wasn't the time to switch if they had players for the two hardest positions to fill????

[Waldo]

Most of the coaches (even retired ones) say there are more players available overall for a 3-4 than for a 4-3, so how does the fact that 11 of 32 teams will be running the 3-4 hurt the Packers? They would still seem to be better off than having to look for players in a 4-3, if the coaches are to be believed.

maybe this is true. But it has to be easier to acquire big DEs when the 3-4 is rare.

It has been interesting hearing and reading what the coaches have to say about it. For the 3-4 DEs they all say you can use the DTs that many teams have who are decent but not great in a 4-3, and for the OLBs you use the "tweeners" that are so abundant, too big and/or too slow for 4-3 linebackers and too small for 4-3 DEs. The rank and file won't be all pros, but at least serviceable. So many of the 3-4 proponents say it uses the players that are common, whereas the 4-3 uses too many that are uncommon. I don't know, but sometimes they make sense.

I have heard/read a lot of comments from coaches that the hardest position to fill is the 4-3 DE. There just aren't a lot of good ones available. Interestingly, GB had at least one in Kampman, and maybe one in Jenkins; so maybe now wasn't the time to switch if they had players for the two hardest positions to fill????

To use an analogy from the other side of the ball, a 4-3 is a lot like Dallas' offense, it needs stars to work at a high level, a 3-4 is a lot like MM's offense, a conglomeration of a wide variety of utility players makes it run at a high level, the more varied the utility players, the better.

The 4-3 needs all in one wonders. DE's that are studs against the run and pass, tackles that are stout at the POA, take on double teams, and can get to the passer. Linebackers that are thumpers that can cover. The one gap 3-4 can utilize a wider variety of players because it doesn't need all in one players. That is why it is called a specialists defense. 1 cover LB (WILB), 1 thumper LB (SILB), one pass rusher (WOLB), one pass rusher that can cover a bit (SOLB), one big blocker (NT), and 2 DE's that are stout in 1 on 1 blocking, but can bring a pass rush. Most players are better at one of these skills than the others, so they naturally align with one of the positions. The 4-3 needs guys that are good at everything, they are much harder to find. 3-4 guys don't need to be good at all skills, just excel at one and be acceptable at others. When you read draft scouting reports, it never says "4-3 player only" whereas you always see "bit of a tweener, better off in a 3-4".

[DonHutson]

If Capers can't find a way to use Kampman we hired the wrong guy. Capers and McCarthy talked defensive philosophy and personnel for two days before any job offer was made. If Capers take on the team after those two days was that none of the personnel would work in his scheme, then A) McCarthy probably wouldn't have hired him, and B) Capers likely wouldn't have taken the job.

How many LB's in the NFL are great at everything? Blitzing, shedding blocks, reading plays, tackling, dropping into coverage? If there's any you could count them on one hand. The rest, the defensive coaches scheme to augment their strengths and limit their weaknesses. If Capers is good at his job, players won't regularly be asked to do jobs they can't perform.

Kampman has done nothing but bust his ass to do whatever was asked of him. He's always performed at a high level. I'm not worried about him at all.

As for the scheme, frankly I'm getting sick of hearing about it. The D didn't suck last year because of the scheme. It sucked because nobody could execute the scheme with any consistency. I didn't want Sanders gone because he used a 4-3. I wanted him gone because three years into his regime, players were still dazed and confused regarding their assignments.

Capers runs a 3-4? Great, whatever. If it's going to work, it will work because he and his staff are effective teachers who can get the players to do their jobs. You can win with a 4-3. You can win with a 3-4. You can't win with a bunch of veteren players running around like headless chickens because they don't know what the hell to do.

[Farley Face]

[quote="DonHutson"]If Capers can't find a way to use Kampman we hired the wrong guy.

Agreed.

[Harlan Huckleby]

If Capers can't find a way to use Kampman we hired the wrong guy.

Agreed.

But what if Kampman is just OK at linebacker, and just OK playing straight-up on the tackle? That is entirely possible. He would be worth more to the team in a trade. A trade of one player is not the end of the world.

I don't understand your thinking at all. I suppose you are just expressing your fan attachment to Aaron Kampman.

To those of you who are convinced that if Kampman can't fit-in it isn't due to Kampman's limitations: which position do you forsee Kampman playing?

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think he's saying that Kampman will find a way to be more than just ok.

[steve823]

Dont forgot our Lbs will be better. Im confident that Green will bring the intensity that they need and will help them develop.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think he's saying that Kampman will find a way to be more than just ok.

OK, the people who believe so strongly that Kampman can succeed in 3-4 ought to at least be able to name a position! It might even help Aaron out, he needs to know now whether he should be gaining or losing weight. :D

I think Leoroy Butler is a valid comparison. He was a hall of fame player at safety (well, GBHF, at least ) I don't think he would be any more than good had he stayed at CB his whole career. The S position maximized his unique talents.

I was totally on the "don't worry, be happy" bandwagon at first, just because Kampman improved so much in his time in the NFL, perhaps he can adapt to this challenge. But after thinking about Chewy's explanation, Kampman won't be as good in 3-4, that's for sure, its only a matter of how much the drop off will be. Trade him.

[wist43]

I understand the mindset which says, "let's put lipstick on this pig"... but you guys are really reaching to say that the current personnel will excel in a 3-4.

They were average to below average in a 4-3, which is the base defense they were drafted for... almost to a man, none of them are a good fit for a 3-4.

Which brings me to my point about Kampman and Capers... no, I don't think Capers is an idiot, and he will lineup with what he thinks gives him the best chance to succeed... given the current personnel, that has to be a 4-3, with Kampman's hand on the ground; unless, as i said, TT sells out and turns over the defensive side of the ball at warp speed - which I don't think he will do.

If the Packers stand pat on defense, which is possible, they may enjoy some initial success at the beginning of next season, but as teams get more film of how Capers is employing the 3-4, I would expect that teams will eventually begin to put up big numbers and them, and Capers will be forced to go back to what the personnel are best suited for, i.e. a 4-3.

[BZnDallas]

If Capers can't find a way to use Kampman we hired the wrong guy. Capers and McCarthy talked defensive philosophy and personnel for two days before any job offer was made. If Capers take on the team after those two days was that none of the personnel would work in his scheme, then A) McCarthy probably wouldn't have hired him, and B) Capers likely wouldn't have taken the job.

How many LB's in the NFL are great at everything? Blitzing, shedding blocks, reading plays, tackling, dropping into coverage? If there's any you could count them on one hand. The rest, the defensive coaches scheme to augment their strengths and limit their weaknesses. If Capers is good at his job, players won't regularly be asked to do jobs they can't perform.

Kampman has done nothing but bust his ass to do whatever was asked of him. He's always performed at a high level. I'm not worried about him at all.

As for the scheme, frankly I'm getting sick of hearing about it. The D didn't suck last year because of the scheme. It sucked because nobody could execute the scheme with any consistency. I didn't want Sanders gone because he used a 4-3. I wanted him gone because three years into his regime, players were still dazed and confused regarding their assignments.

Capers runs a 3-4? Great, whatever. If it's going to work, it will work because he and his staff are effective teachers who can get the players to do their jobs. You can win with a 4-3. You can win with a 3-4. You can't win with a bunch of veteren players running around like headless chickens because they don't know what the hell to do.



:bclap: HERE HERE!!!!

[sharpe1027]

I understand the mindset which says, "let's put lipstick on this pig"... but you guys are really reaching to say that the current personnel will excel in a 3-4.

They were average to below average in a 4-3, which is the base defense they were drafted for... almost to a man, none of them are a good fit for a 3-4.

Which brings me to my point about Kampman and Capers... no, I don't think Capers is an idiot, and he will lineup with what he thinks gives him the best chance to succeed... given the current personnel, that has to be a 4-3, with Kampman's hand on the ground; unless, as i said, TT sells out and turns over the defensive side of the ball at warp speed - which I don't think he will do.

If the Packers stand pat on defense, which is possible, they may enjoy some initial success at the beginning of next season, but as teams get more film of how Capers is employing the 3-4, I would expect that teams will eventually begin to put up big numbers and them, and Capers will be forced to go back to what the personnel are best suited for, i.e. a 4-3.

Wow, that is a pessimistic view of things. Ever consider that some of those players are actually suited better for 3-4? Not to mention that the differences between the schemes causes much of what is perceived to be different skill-set requirements. If a player is allowed to cut loose and rush off the edge most of the time in a first scheme (4-3), that player is going to appear to be a better pass-rusher than a player that is asked to take occupy a lineman first and foremost. The same exact player will appear to have two different skill sets.

[Zool]

I understand the mindset which says, "let's put lipstick on this pig"... but you guys are really reaching to say that the current personnel will excel in a 3-4.

They were average to below average in a 4-3, which is the base defense they were drafted for... almost to a man, none of them are a good fit for a 3-4.

Which brings me to my point about Kampman and Capers... no, I don't think Capers is an idiot, and he will lineup with what he thinks gives him the best chance to succeed... given the current personnel, that has to be a 4-3, with Kampman's hand on the ground; unless, as i said, TT sells out and turns over the defensive side of the ball at warp speed - which I don't think he will do.

If the Packers stand pat on defense, which is possible, they may enjoy some initial success at the beginning of next season, but as teams get more film of how Capers is employing the 3-4, I would expect that teams will eventually begin to put up big numbers and them, and Capers will be forced to go back to what the personnel are best suited for, i.e. a 4-3.

Wow, that is a pessimistic view of things. Ever consider that some of those players are actually suited better for 3-4? Not to mention that the differences between the schemes causes much of what is perceived to be different skill-set requirements. If a player is allowed to cut loose and rush off the edge most of the time in a first scheme (4-3), that player is going to appear to be a better pass-rusher than a player that is asked to take occupy a lineman first and foremost. The same exact player will appear to have two different skill sets.

First time reading a Wist post?

[sharpe1027]

First time reading a Wist post?

Not really. I had a good discussion with Wist about whether or not Rodgers would fail because Wist believed that the West Coast Offense required a HoF QB. It was a classic chicken or the egg argument. Yet, it still surprised me how utterly hopeless he sees the current guys abilities for a new defense. Granted, there are some important differences, but fast, strong, tough and intelligent goes well with any defense.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think he's saying that Kampman will find a way to be more than just ok.

OK, the people who believe so strongly that Kampman can succeed in 3-4 ought to at least be able to name a position! It might even help Aaron out, he needs to know now whether he should be gaining or losing weight.

I think Leoroy Butler is a valid comparison. He was a hall of fame player at safety (well, GBHF, at least ) I don't think he would be any more than good had he stayed at CB his whole career. The S position maximized his unique talents.

Most people that know more than I do think Kampman would be a OLB. Kampman has the same size and speed as most of the good OLBs in the 3-4 scheme. What don't you think he has that the other guys have?

[HarveyWallbangers]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/38512934.html

Article says Kampman will play Woodley's position of SOLB. A Steelers coach said that Capers will likely "use the slightly offset line more than the two-gap," and said Capers will not "override what the players can do."

Woodley is 6'1" 266. He ran the 40 in 4.74. (He ran between 4.68 and 4.84 and was given this as his official time.) His vertical leap was 38". His shuttle run (primarily, a test of agility) was 4.42.

At Kampman's campus workout, he was 6'4" 288. He ran the 40 in 4.68. (He ran between 4.66 and 4.70.) His vertical leap was 35 1/2". His shuttle run was 4.04.

Kampman tested as good or better than Woodley, and he was 288 then. He's now down to 265, so I would imagine his numbers might even better.

Makes you wonder how scouts missed on Kampman.

[bobblehead]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/38512934.html

Article says Kampman will play Woodley's position of SOLB. A Steelers coach said that Capers will likely "use the slightly offset line more than the two-gap," and said Capers will not "override what the players can do."

Woodley is 6'1" 266. He ran the 40 in 4.74. (He ran between 4.68 and 4.84 and was given this as his official time.) His vertical leap was 38". His shuttle run (primarily, a test of agility) was 4.42.

At Kampman's campus workout, he was 6'4" 288. He ran the 40 in 4.68. (He ran between 4.66 and 4.70.) His vertical leap was 35 1/2". His shuttle run was 4.04.

Kampman tested as good or better than Woodley, and he was 288 then. He's now down to 265, so I would imagine his numbers might even better.

Makes you wonder how scouts missed on Kampman.

Mark Hatley didn't...man I wish he hadn't up and died.

[Waldo]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/38512934.html

Article says Kampman will play Woodley's position of SOLB. A Steelers coach said that Capers will likely "use the slightly offset line more than the two-gap," and said Capers will not "override what the players can do."

Woodley is 6'1" 266. He ran the 40 in 4.74. (He ran between 4.68 and 4.84 and was given this as his official time.) His vertical leap was 38". His shuttle run (primarily, a test of agility) was 4.42.

At Kampman's campus workout, he was 6'4" 288. He ran the 40 in 4.68. (He ran between 4.66 and 4.70.) His vertical leap was 35 1/2". His shuttle run was 4.04.

Kampman tested as good or better than Woodley, and he was 288 then. He's now down to 265, so I would imagine his numbers might even better.

Makes you wonder how scouts missed on Kampman.

Kamp wasn't invited to the combine. He was a first team all-American LB in HS and the highest rated LB recruit in the state of Iowa (in addition to being a basketball and track star). He was good enough that he started at OLB as a true freshman in college, and was a darn good linebacker his freshman and sophomore years. His junior year the HC of the team changed, and the new HC moved him to end. As a junior, his first season at end, he stunk. His senior year he had put on more weight an he did a pretty decent job, but not good enough to earn a combine invite. Something weird happened at his pro day, most scouts clocked him a lot slower than the Packers did. It is possible that a Tramon Williams type situation happened where he ran bad on a unfamiliar surface, he asked the scouts to rerun on a different surface, most left but a few hung around to give him a shot, and ran substantially better on the second run (Tramon's "official" time was ~4.6 on a crappy wet track, the Texans and Packers clocked him at 4.4 on a second run on grass that other scouts didn't bother to watch). If you read up on the history of Kamp, he tells the story that they asked him why he thought they drafted him, he gave a litany of reasons about his positives, and the coaches told him straight up that he was drafted for his 40 time, and 40 time alone.

[Patler]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/38512934.html

At Kampman's campus workout, he was 6'4" 288. He ran the 40 in 4.68. (He ran between 4.66 and 4.70.) His vertical leap was 35 1/2". His shuttle run was 4.04.


That is an extremely impressive shuttle run time. It is better than every tight end time at the combine last year. Leads me to believe Kampman would not be "too stiff" in coverage.

How many remember the game a couple years ago, when the Vikings tried to block Kampman with a tight end in the first half? Kampman trashed the guy play after play and had a couple sacks and a couple near sack knockdowns in the first half alone. The TV announcers were perplexed about the Vikings thinking.

With Kampman as an OLB in a 3-4, they can possibly force favorable matchups like that more often.

[Noodle]

If you read up on the history of Kamp, he tells the story that they asked him why he thought they drafted him, he gave a litany of reasons about his positives, and the coaches told him straight up that he was drafted for his 40 time, and 40 time alone.

If so, that is friggin horrifying. 40 times, especially for DL, are about as worthless as teats on a steer. Now the shuttle run tells me something that I want to know about a DL, but not a 40 time. If true, our personnel people were friggin morons. But it does explain some things . . .

[Harlan Huckleby]

OK, resolved, Kampman is now a linebacker. So we can stop talking about Kampman putting on 20 pounds and playing on the line.

I have zero idea if Kampman can excel at linebacker. I did hear some comments on radio that Kampman looked stiff when he has dropped into coverage in current scheme. Chewy says he will be helpless trying to guard a tight end. But that may all be wrong.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I have zero idea if Kampman can excel at linebacker. I did hear some comments on radio that Kampman looked stiff when he has dropped into coverage in current scheme. Chewy says he will be helpless trying to guard a tight end. But that may all be wrong.

Who knows how it will work. However, most of the 3-4 OLBs would have trouble guarding a TE man-on-man. That's not how the zone blitz works. Plus, Kampman isn't going to be asked to drop back much, but it will give him the ability to move around a bit. Athletically, I think Kampman is fine for the spot. The bigger questions might be: 1) how will he adjust to rushing without a hand on the grand, 2) a lot of his pressures now happen because he has the ability to set up the OT. He won't get benefit now. I have a funny feeling that he'll be a pretty damn good SOLB in this scheme. A lot like Bryce Paup. The guy didn't always look like he'd be effective, but in the end he was pretty damn good.

[Lurker64]

Also, in Kampman's favor in terms of playing SOLB in the 3-4 is that he did play Linebacker in high school and college up until his Junior Year (Kirk Ferentz's first year) when the coaches asked him to move to defensive end because of a surplus of LBs and a dearth of DEs. Unlike some guys you convert from DE to 3-4 OLB, Kampman does have experience playing in space, and he wasn't totally lost out there doing it, either.

[Patler]

If so, that is friggin horrifying. 40 times, especially for DL, are about as worthless as teats on a steer.

40 times can be extremely important....just think of all those late substitutions when they are trying to get a lineman off the field for a pass rush specialist, extra DB or LB, etc. If the lineman is too slow, it could cost you 5 yards! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Other than that, linemen don't run that much!

[wist43]

First time reading a Wist post?

Not really. I had a good discussion with Wist about whether or not Rodgers would fail because Wist believed that the West Coast Offense required a HoF QB. It was a classic chicken or the egg argument. Yet, it still surprised me how utterly hopeless he sees the current guys abilities for a new defense. Granted, there are some important differences, but fast, strong, tough and intelligent goes well with any defense.

I don't see it as hopeless... I'm just raising red flags, and given what is being said at 1265, i.e. they think they have the personnel in-house to execute a 3-4, that should be enough to cause any Packer fan to be concerned. They clearly don't have the personnel... hell, they didn't have good personnel to execute the 4-3.

I've been calling for a 3-4 for years... and all the while, the pollyanna optimists in here have been telling me how great the Bates scheme was, and how great our players were... a bunch of hooey on both counts.

I want to see a complete turnover on defense... Jenkins can play DE in a 3-4, but he is about the only guy on the entire roster that fits a 3-4.

Given the way they seem to be going about changing schemes... I see it as more desperation than anything else, and given that TT is unlikely to do much in terms of outfitting a 3-4 scheme... I'm not optimistic it will work, and I'm fully expecting that Capers will be running a 4-3 almost exclusively by mid-season.

[Gunakor]

Most people that know more than I do think Kampman would be a OLB. Kampman has the same size and speed as most of the good OLBs in the 3-4 scheme. What don't you think he has that the other guys have?

The instinct of an NFL OLB, for starters. Measurables only take you so far. You can be the biggest, fastest, strongest player at your position but if you don't have the instinct to match you won't excel as others will. If all it took was measureables to succeed, Ahmad Carroll would be a Pro Bowl cornerback on our defense. Ahmad's problem was that, well, he just didn't know how to play the position. And that's my fear with moving Kampman to OLB. Sure he has the speed and size to play OLB, but CAN he play OLB. I guess we'll see soon enough.

[cpk1994]

I want to see a complete turnover on defense... Jenkins can play DE in a 3-4, but he is about the only guy on the entire roster that fits a 3-4.


This is a completely idiotic statement. I would like to see your proof of this, which should be a humdinger as none of these players has played a single down in the 3-4 system Capers is planning to play. How about giving them a chance first before completely wrting them off?

[Waldo]

I want to see a complete turnover on defense... Jenkins can play DE in a 3-4, but he is about the only guy on the entire roster that fits a 3-4.


This is a completely idiotic statement. I would like to see your proof of this, which should be a humdinger as none of these players has played a single down in the 3-4 system Capers is planning to play. How about giving them a chance first before completely wrting them off?

You can say the same thing about a 4-3. Most of our players are a terrible fit for a Tampa-2 4-3. Our players aren't a good fit for a traditional Fairbanks-Bullough 3-4 (that from which all the "rules" are derived), fortunately we are running a Capers/Lebeau 3-4, and those rules don't apply.

[Guiness]

If so, that is friggin horrifying. 40 times, especially for DL, are about as worthless as teats on a steer.

40 times can be extremely important....just think of all those late substitutions when they are trying to get a lineman off the field for a pass rush specialist, extra DB or LB, etc. If the lineman is too slow, it could cost you 5 yards! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Other than that, linemen don't run that much!

More truth to that than you think! I distinctly remember the Gravedigger causing some problems trying to get off the field on 3rd and long!

[Waldo]

If so, that is friggin horrifying. 40 times, especially for DL, are about as worthless as teats on a steer.

40 times can be extremely important....just think of all those late substitutions when they are trying to get a lineman off the field for a pass rush specialist, extra DB or LB, etc. If the lineman is too slow, it could cost you 5 yards! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Other than that, linemen don't run that much!

More truth to that than you think! I distinctly remember the Gravedigger causing some problems trying to get off the field on 3rd and long!

Gilbert could run pretty good for a big man. Grady OTOH, eek, I can walk faster than he could run.

[sharpe1027]

They clearly don't have the personnel... hell, they didn't have good personnel to execute the 4-3.


It is not clear. The only thing that is clear is that you have reached a conclusion about the issue. Your points are generally valid, but I feel that you are overstating your position.

For example, the entire defensive team is not going to be unsuited for a 3-4 scheme. True, they may have drafted a player who they thought was the best available for their 4-3 scheme at the time, but that doesn't mean that that same player wouldn't be just as good or even better at a similar position in a 3-4 scheme.

From what I have read, there are as many differences between variations of different 4-3 schemes as there are between a particular 4-3 scheme and a particular 3-4 scheme.

[Guiness]

40 times can be extremely important....just think of all those late substitutions when they are trying to get a lineman off the field for a pass rush specialist, extra DB or LB, etc. If the lineman is too slow, it could cost you 5 yards! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Other than that, linemen don't run that much!

More truth to that than you think! I distinctly remember the Gravedigger causing some problems trying to get off the field on 3rd and long!

Gilbert could run pretty good for a big man. Grady OTOH, eek, I can walk faster than he could run.

Which actually goes to show how little measureable, etc, can mean.

I don't know how those two big men 'graded out' but I do know that Jackson was able to get to the QB a lot better than Brown, and on the surface you'd think speed has something to do with this.

edit: damn, just looked him up. He started for Atlanta this season?

[Waldo]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/38512934.html

Article says Kampman will play Woodley's position of SOLB. A Steelers coach said that Capers will likely "use the slightly offset line more than the two-gap," and said Capers will not "override what the players can do."

Woodley is 6'1" 266. He ran the 40 in 4.74. (He ran between 4.68 and 4.84 and was given this as his official time.) His vertical leap was 38". His shuttle run (primarily, a test of agility) was 4.42.

At Kampman's campus workout, he was 6'4" 288. He ran the 40 in 4.68. (He ran between 4.66 and 4.70.) His vertical leap was 35 1/2". His shuttle run was 4.04.

Kampman tested as good or better than Woodley, and he was 288 then. He's now down to 265, so I would imagine his numbers might even better.

Makes you wonder how scouts missed on Kampman.

:shock:

Wow, I just noticed that, I had to go elsewhere to look it up just to be sure (I found 4.09, same ballpark), holy smokes. I found a list of 3-4 WOLB's and their #'s, only Demarcus Ware is even in that ballpark (4.07), Merriman and Lawson both ran it in 4.21. If he added a few inches to his vert after losing 20lbs, his #'s are as elite as any 3-4 WOLB in the NFL.

AJ Hawk had one of the fastest LB times ever at the combine, and he did it in 3.96.

[rbaloha1]

Again great measureables do not always directly correlate to great performance on the football field.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Again great measureables do not always directly correlate to great performance on the football field.

Last summer, Harvey schooled me in the fact that Jason Hunter's measurables are very similar to Justin Tuck's.

Harvey & Hunter, sitting in a tree
K-I-S-S-I-N-G

[Waldo]

You guys do know that Kamp was a 5 star LB recruit of of HS right? He could have played LB at any school in the nation that he wanted to. AJ Hawk was only a 3 star LB recruit coming out of HS. Aaron wasn't just a guy that played LB, he was one of the top 5 best LB's in the nation in his class. He was THAT good of a LB. And has the measurables to back it up.

[mraynrand]

You guys do know that Kamp was a 5 star LB recruit of of HS right? He could have played LB at any school in the nation that he wanted to. AJ Hawk was only a 3 star LB recruit coming out of HS. Aaron wasn't just a guy that played LB, he was one of the top 5 best LB's in the nation in his class. He was THAT good of a LB. And has the measurables to back it up.

He's had his hand on the ground for a long time though. Any precedent for a DE to LB switch like this, so late in a career?

[HarveyWallbangers]

He's had his hand on the ground for a long time though. Any precedent for a DE to LB switch like this, so late in a career?

Didn't Jason Taylor make the switch his last couple of years in Miami?

[Waldo]

You guys do know that Kamp was a 5 star LB recruit of of HS right? He could have played LB at any school in the nation that he wanted to. AJ Hawk was only a 3 star LB recruit coming out of HS. Aaron wasn't just a guy that played LB, he was one of the top 5 best LB's in the nation in his class. He was THAT good of a LB. And has the measurables to back it up.

He's had his hand on the ground for a long time though. Any precedent for a DE to LB switch like this, so late in a career?

Greg Ellis was a DE from HS until he was 28 and made the switch. His #'s went up when Dallas switched from a 4-3 to a 3-4, and got even better when they switched from a 2 gap 3-4 to a 1 gap 3-4. Also remember Kamp has played LB at a very high level before. He played the exact same position at the exact same school that Greenway played. And he was a higher rated recruit.

[wist43]

I want to see a complete turnover on defense... Jenkins can play DE in a 3-4, but he is about the only guy on the entire roster that fits a 3-4.


This is a completely idiotic statement. I would like to see your proof of this, which should be a humdinger as none of these players has played a single down in the 3-4 system Capers is planning to play. How about giving them a chance first before completely wrting them off?

Who else is a good fit in the front 7???

You have to make extrapolations to make just about any of the rest of them fit... Pickett can play nose, but how well... Cole can't anchor as a 4-3 DT, how is he going to play nose, so right away??? So right away, you have no depth at NT, at least quality depth.

Montgomery is gone... Thompson and Kampman are hands down DE's, i.e. both of them are better suited to a 4-3, Jolly can maybe man the other end opposite Jenkins.

For every guy they have... projecting them into a 3-4 is exactly that. They were drafted to play that passive POS 4-3 they had been using, none of them is a natural fit in a 3-4. Not that complicated, just stating the obvious.

And knowing what they are starting with... I'm drawing a reasonable conclusion that the "hybrid" they plan on running, will quickly morph right back into a base 4-3 b/c they lack the personnel to play that scheme.

The only thing that could change that would be if TT recognizes the players he has are a bad fit and moves to get some slotted 3-4 personnel in here.

[BZnDallas]

I want to see a complete turnover on defense... Jenkins can play DE in a 3-4, but he is about the only guy on the entire roster that fits a 3-4.


This is a completely idiotic statement. I would like to see your proof of this, which should be a humdinger as none of these players has played a single down in the 3-4 system Capers is planning to play. How about giving them a chance first before completely wrting them off?

Who else is a good fit in the front 7???

You have to make extrapolations to make just about any of the rest of them fit... Pickett can play nose, but how well... Cole can't anchor as a 4-3 DT, how is he going to play nose, so right away??? So right away, you have no depth at NT, at least quality depth.

Montgomery is gone... Thompson and Kampman are hands down DE's, i.e. both of them are better suited to a 4-3, Jolly can maybe man the other end opposite Jenkins.

For every guy they have... projecting them into a 3-4 is exactly that. They were drafted to play that passive POS 4-3 they had been using, none of them is a natural fit in a 3-4. Not that complicated, just stating the obvious.

And knowing what they are starting with... I'm drawing a reasonable conclusion that the "hybrid" they plan on running, will quickly morph right back into a base 4-3 b/c they lack the personnel to play that scheme.

The only thing that could change that would be if TT recognizes the players he has are a bad fit and moves to get some slotted 3-4 personnel in here.


so i'm curious wist... how many new players are you wanting TT to bring in?... how many new players would it take for you to say something positive about the packers for a change... (i don't mean that in a negitive way)...

i think we would all agree with you that we would like another NT for depth, maybe raji, maybe FA... i think many of us would agree that we need another 3-4 DE (quite a few of those in FA this offseason and some might not have a hefty price tag either)... and i say again, i don't think many people would agrue with you about a 3-4 OLB... but that can be found in the draft, maybe 2nd round (English i think?) or again FA... those are the positions i think you have commented on in the past... so we are looking at 2 new starters, and a depth player? by no means is that overhauling the defensive side of the ball... and all of those can be taken care of in one offseason...

i'm not saying we are going to contend for the SB next year, but if TT can make a move here and make a move there, i can see how we have a chance at being competitive next year and maybe a boss in the NFC the year after that... but hey, thats just one mans opinion...

[HarveyWallbangers]

Who else is a good fit in the front 7?

I'm going to predict that Pickett at NT, Jenkins at DE, Kampman at SOLB, Hawk at ILB will be good fits. I also wouldn't be surprised if our WOLB is on the roster, and he's solid. Barnett is not an ideal fit, and I know you hate him, but I'm not going to write him off as a bad fit. There are plenty of ILBs in the 3-4 scheme that are a similar size to Barnett. I think our obvious needs are a starting caliber DE and a backup NT. In this scheme, you can never have enough LBs, so we'll need more of them. Although I think we could most of our LBs on the roster, there's no guarantee that any of them will be studs in this scheme.

[Waldo]

Who else is a good fit in the front 7?

I'm going to predict that Pickett at NT, Jenkins at DE, Kampman at SOLB, Hawk at ILB will be good fits. I also wouldn't be surprised if our WOLB is on the roster, and he's solid. Barnett is not an ideal fit, and I know you hate him, but I'm not going to write him off as a bad fit. There are plenty of ILBs in the 3-4 scheme that are a similar size to Barnett. I think our obvious needs are a starting caliber DE and a backup NT. In this scheme, you can never have enough LBs, so we'll need more of them. Although I think we could most of our LBs on the roster, there's no guarantee that any of them will be studs in this scheme.

There is also no guarantee that we don't have a periennial pro bowler that we don't know about. The coin flips both ways. Physically Kampman, Thompson and Hunter are ideal OLB's; the more aggressive, attacking mentality might just be what is needed for Hawk to turn into the dominant LB he was in college, the one that #5 overall indicates.

[DonHutson]

I have zero idea if Kampman can excel at linebacker. I did hear some comments on radio that Kampman looked stiff when he has dropped into coverage in current scheme. Chewy says he will be helpless trying to guard a tight end. But that may all be wrong.

Who knows how it will work. However, most of the 3-4 OLBs would have trouble guarding a TE man-on-man. That's not how the zone blitz works. Plus, Kampman isn't going to be asked to drop back much, but it will give him the ability to move around a bit. Athletically, I think Kampman is fine for the spot. The bigger questions might be: 1) how will he adjust to rushing without a hand on the grand, 2) a lot of his pressures now happen because he has the ability to set up the OT. He won't get benefit now. I have a funny feeling that he'll be a pretty damn good SOLB in this scheme. A lot like Bryce Paup. The guy didn't always look like he'd be effective, but in the end he was pretty damn good.

Harvey is right on here. Kampman will be an OLB, but that doesn't mean the same as it did in the 4-3. Kampman was primarily a pass rusher before, and he will primarily be a pass rusher now.

The only difference is that he will likely have more opportunities to move around and pick his spots. He might still rush from an end spot with his hand on the ground like he did before on some plays. I would expect he'll be given a fair amount of freedom to move around and find weak links in the pass protection. He's a great pass rusher and a bright guy. I can't imagine why he wouldn't be good at that role.

He's too stiff for pass coverage? I don't know. He probably is. But it's not like he's going to chasing TE's around all day. They'll drop him back once in a awhile to help disguise what he's doing, but that's not going to be his primary job.

Some people also don't think Jenkins will be a good fit as a 3-4 end, and I don't buy that either. He's around 300# and he's experienced at playing inside. I think he's ideal. He's also a gifted pass rusher when he's healthy. I'm sure Capers and McCarthy recognize that, and they won't be content to just waste that ability by letting him plug up blockers all day. He'll need to do that a lot, but I have no doubt he will be given opportunities to get after the QB as well. A guy who can not only do the job a typical 3-4 DE does, but can also get after the QB is a huge weapon that they can utilize in many ways. Most of the time you don't have to worry much about the pass rush from a 3-4 end, but teams aren't going to know what to expect from Jenkins play in and play out. When they say Jenkins should be happy about the change, I believe it.

[DonHutson]

I don't understand your thinking at all. I suppose you are just expressing your fan attachment to Aaron Kampman.


Actually, if asked to make a list of my favorite Packers Kampman isn't a name that jumps immediately to mind. He's a nice guy and all, but a little too God-fearing and boring for me. Maybe that makes me a little twisted, but whatever.

I do however, have a tremendous amount of respect for his game and his work ethic. Every time I thought he'd maxed out his talent (which was pretty much every year for the first 5 or so years of his career) he'd come out next year and play a lot better. He's 100% football player.

And again, there's an ideal list of traits and abilities you could write up for every position. Very few players meet that ideal standard. But I trust Kampman to work harder than anyone at his weaknesses. And until proven otherwise, I trust Capers to put a plan in place that will take advantage of his players' strengths while minimizing the weaknesses. We already know Kampman can rush the passer. If that's what he's best at, I'm sure that's what Capers will ask him to do most of the time. Again, if that's not the case then Capers is the wrong coach.

[Lurker64]

Who else is a good fit in the front 7???

Kampman is an OLB, in the mold of DeMarcus Ware, in essence a DE who picks his spots.

Thompson was always going to be a better 3-4 OLB than a 4-3 DE, due to his considerable athleticism and the fact that much of his game is read and react.

Hawk and Barnett have prototypical size and athleticism to play ILB in this scheme, think Farrior (6'2" 243) and Foote (6'1" 239), (Hawk is 6'1" 248 and Barnett is 6'2" 236).

Pickett will be fine at Nose, since at NT his responsibilities will be identical to his current responsibilities in the 4-3. He'll play 1-gap, not 2-gap, and he'll just flip from A-gap to A-gap depending on the play. He won't even really notice the scheme change. He will need a backup though.

Jenkings, we both agree, is a good fit.

So as I see it, of the front 7 we have questions at one DE spot, the one OLB spot (probably WOLB), and everybody needs backups. That's not so terrible.

Remember, when you're thinking of the 3-4 defense, don't think of the classic 3-4 defense with the huge space eating DL occupying two gaps and the big thumping ILBs that was recently ressurected by Belichick. Think of the 3-4 defense that Pittsburgh runs. We don't have the personnel for the classic 3-4, but we do have much of the personnel for a Phillips-Capers-LeBeau 3-4, in part because that scheme adapts so much to existing personnel.

[Farley Face]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/38512934.html

Article says Kampman will play Woodley's position of SOLB. A Steelers coach said that Capers will likely "use the slightly offset line more than the two-gap," and said Capers will not "override what the players can do."

Woodley is 6'1" 266. He ran the 40 in 4.74. (He ran between 4.68 and 4.84 and was given this as his official time.) His vertical leap was 38". His shuttle run (primarily, a test of agility) was 4.42.

At Kampman's campus workout, he was 6'4" 288. He ran the 40 in 4.68. (He ran between 4.66 and 4.70.) His vertical leap was 35 1/2". His shuttle run was 4.04.

Kampman tested as good or better than Woodley, and he was 288 then. He's now down to 265, so I would imagine his numbers might even better.

Makes you wonder how scouts missed on Kampman.

Kamp wasn't invited to the combine. He was a first team all-American LB in HS and the highest rated LB recruit in the state of Iowa (in addition to being a basketball and track star). He was good enough that he started at OLB as a true freshman in college, and was a darn good linebacker his freshman and sophomore years. His junior year the HC of the team changed, and the new HC moved him to end. As a junior, his first season at end, he stunk. His senior year he had put on more weight an he did a pretty decent job, but not good enough to earn a combine invite. Something weird happened at his pro day, most scouts clocked him a lot slower than the Packers did. It is possible that a Tramon Williams type situation happened where he ran bad on a unfamiliar surface, he asked the scouts to rerun on a different surface, most left but a few hung around to give him a shot, and ran substantially better on the second run (Tramon's "official" time was ~4.6 on a crappy wet track, the Texans and Packers clocked him at 4.4 on a second run on grass that other scouts didn't bother to watch). If you read up on the history of Kamp, he tells the story that they asked him why he thought they drafted him, he gave a litany of reasons about his positives, and the coaches told him straight up that he was drafted for his 40 time, and 40 time alone.

I'd love to read up on this as you suggest, but I'm lazy. Can you provide a link or links to your sources for this info? Thanks.

[Waldo]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/38512934.html

Article says Kampman will play Woodley's position of SOLB. A Steelers coach said that Capers will likely "use the slightly offset line more than the two-gap," and said Capers will not "override what the players can do."

Woodley is 6'1" 266. He ran the 40 in 4.74. (He ran between 4.68 and 4.84 and was given this as his official time.) His vertical leap was 38". His shuttle run (primarily, a test of agility) was 4.42.

At Kampman's campus workout, he was 6'4" 288. He ran the 40 in 4.68. (He ran between 4.66 and 4.70.) His vertical leap was 35 1/2". His shuttle run was 4.04.

Kampman tested as good or better than Woodley, and he was 288 then. He's now down to 265, so I would imagine his numbers might even better.

Makes you wonder how scouts missed on Kampman.

Kamp wasn't invited to the combine. He was a first team all-American LB in HS and the highest rated LB recruit in the state of Iowa (in addition to being a basketball and track star). He was good enough that he started at OLB as a true freshman in college, and was a darn good linebacker his freshman and sophomore years. His junior year the HC of the team changed, and the new HC moved him to end. As a junior, his first season at end, he stunk. His senior year he had put on more weight an he did a pretty decent job, but not good enough to earn a combine invite. Something weird happened at his pro day, most scouts clocked him a lot slower than the Packers did. It is possible that a Tramon Williams type situation happened where he ran bad on a unfamiliar surface, he asked the scouts to rerun on a different surface, most left but a few hung around to give him a shot, and ran substantially better on the second run (Tramon's "official" time was ~4.6 on a crappy wet track, the Texans and Packers clocked him at 4.4 on a second run on grass that other scouts didn't bother to watch). If you read up on the history of Kamp, he tells the story that they asked him why he thought they drafted him, he gave a litany of reasons about his positives, and the coaches told him straight up that he was drafted for his 40 time, and 40 time alone.

I'd love to read up on this as you suggest, but I'm lazy. Can you provide a link or links to your sources for this info? Thanks.

http://www.google.com/intl/en_ALL/images/logo.gif

http://www.google.com/

Kampman "pro day" Iowa "5 Star" 4.65 4.68 4.09 all-American linebacker <- Useful keywords

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=nfl&id=3090229


He said he was reminiscing with Packers scout Lenny McGill, who timed him that day, earlier this week. After the draft, he went to Lambeau Field and had a positional meeting with then-defensive line coach Jethro Franklin.

Kampman said Franklin asked him if he knew why he'd been picked.

"I gave some long litany of 'Well, I try to work hard, and play this way...' He said, 'No, because you ran a fast 40."

http://www.neworleansprofootball.com/draft02/murphy2.html

http://hawkeyesports.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/kampman_aaron00.html

http://armchairgm.wikia.com/Aaron_Kampman

[Farley Face]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/38512934.html

Article says Kampman will play Woodley's position of SOLB. A Steelers coach said that Capers will likely "use the slightly offset line more than the two-gap," and said Capers will not "override what the players can do."

Woodley is 6'1" 266. He ran the 40 in 4.74. (He ran between 4.68 and 4.84 and was given this as his official time.) His vertical leap was 38". His shuttle run (primarily, a test of agility) was 4.42.

At Kampman's campus workout, he was 6'4" 288. He ran the 40 in 4.68. (He ran between 4.66 and 4.70.) His vertical leap was 35 1/2". His shuttle run was 4.04.

Kampman tested as good or better than Woodley, and he was 288 then. He's now down to 265, so I would imagine his numbers might even better.

Makes you wonder how scouts missed on Kampman.

Kamp wasn't invited to the combine. He was a first team all-American LB in HS and the highest rated LB recruit in the state of Iowa (in addition to being a basketball and track star). He was good enough that he started at OLB as a true freshman in college, and was a darn good linebacker his freshman and sophomore years. His junior year the HC of the team changed, and the new HC moved him to end. As a junior, his first season at end, he stunk. His senior year he had put on more weight an he did a pretty decent job, but not good enough to earn a combine invite. Something weird happened at his pro day, most scouts clocked him a lot slower than the Packers did. It is possible that a Tramon Williams type situation happened where he ran bad on a unfamiliar surface, he asked the scouts to rerun on a different surface, most left but a few hung around to give him a shot, and ran substantially better on the second run (Tramon's "official" time was ~4.6 on a crappy wet track, the Texans and Packers clocked him at 4.4 on a second run on grass that other scouts didn't bother to watch). If you read up on the history of Kamp, he tells the story that they asked him why he thought they drafted him, he gave a litany of reasons about his positives, and the coaches told him straight up that he was drafted for his 40 time, and 40 time alone.

I'd love to read up on this as you suggest, but I'm lazy. Can you provide a link or links to your sources for this info? Thanks.

http://www.google.com/intl/en_ALL/images/logo.gif

http://www.google.com/

Kampman "pro day" Iowa "5 Star" 4.65 4.68 4.09 all-American linebacker<- Useful keywords

Tried it all, still can't find the straight up quote that he was drafted for his 40 time and 40 time alone. I appreciate you trying to teach me to fish but in this instance I'm going to ask that you give me a fish. Please provide the specific source of this quote. Thanks. Again.

[Bossman641]

Here ya go bud

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=nfl&id=3090229


Kampman didn't receive an invitation to the NFL scouting combine, and the elementary education major was student teaching when he had a workout at Iowa, running the 40-yard dash at 4.65.

He said he was reminiscing with Packers scout Lenny McGill, who timed him that day, earlier this week. After the draft, he went to Lambeau Field and had a positional meeting with then-defensive line coach Jethro Franklin.

Kampman said Franklin asked him if he knew why he'd been picked.

"I gave some long litany of 'Well, I try to work hard, and play this way...' He said, 'No, because you ran a fast 40."

[Farley Face]

Here ya go bud

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=nfl&id=3090229


Kampman didn't receive an invitation to the NFL scouting combine, and the elementary education major was student teaching when he had a workout at Iowa, running the 40-yard dash at 4.65.

He said he was reminiscing with Packers scout Lenny McGill, who timed him that day, earlier this week. After the draft, he went to Lambeau Field and had a positional meeting with then-defensive line coach Jethro Franklin.

Kampman said Franklin asked him if he knew why he'd been picked.

"I gave some long litany of 'Well, I try to work hard, and play this way...' He said, 'No, because you ran a fast 40."

Thanks, good read.

[steve823]

You guys think Pat LEe will ever be any good? I know hes is still extremely raw and is a develolpmental project for us..hope he works out well I think he has the tools.

[wist43]

You guys think Pat LEe will ever be any good? I know hes is still extremely raw and is a develolpmental project for us..hope he works out well I think he has the tools.

Developmental prospects like Lee are what you use 5th, 6th and 7th round picks on... not 2nd round picks.

[Waldo]

You guys think Pat LEe will ever be any good? I know hes is still extremely raw and is a develolpmental project for us..hope he works out well I think he has the tools.

Developmental prospects like Lee are what you use 5th, 6th and 7th round picks on... not 2nd round picks.

You don't find too many SEC starters with 1st round measurables in the 5th, 6th, and 7th round.

Lee looked good when he was on the field. Needs a little more work on pro route recognition, but his coverage technique is pretty good for a rookie. He looked far better than Williams, Bush, Dendy, Blackmon, etc... did when they were rookies.

[wist43]

You guys think Pat LEe will ever be any good? I know hes is still extremely raw and is a develolpmental project for us..hope he works out well I think he has the tools.

Developmental prospects like Lee are what you use 5th, 6th and 7th round picks on... not 2nd round picks.

You don't find too many SEC starters with 1st round measurables in the 5th, 6th, and 7th round.

Lee looked good when he was on the field. Needs a little more work on pro route recognition, but his coverage technique is pretty good for a rookie. He looked far better than Williams, Bush, Dendy, Blackmon, etc... did when they were rookies.

Don't know what Lee you were looking at... he was abysmal.

[Waldo]

You guys think Pat LEe will ever be any good? I know hes is still extremely raw and is a develolpmental project for us..hope he works out well I think he has the tools.

Developmental prospects like Lee are what you use 5th, 6th and 7th round picks on... not 2nd round picks.

You don't find too many SEC starters with 1st round measurables in the 5th, 6th, and 7th round.

Lee looked good when he was on the field. Needs a little more work on pro route recognition, but his coverage technique is pretty good for a rookie. He looked far better than Williams, Bush, Dendy, Blackmon, etc... did when they were rookies.

Don't know what Lee you were looking at... he was abysmal.

He did give up some passes, primarily agaisnt Atl. Was Lee the problem or the coach that put Lee in BnR man coverage agaisnt a top 5 WR with no help?

[KYPack]

I agree. Lee's got the tools, but extremely raw.

You have to pay a price for a prospect like him & sometimes, they don't work out.

He needs a lot of coaching and must become aware of where his help is coming from. The old regime really pushed press cover. I'd think a kid like Lee would do better starting to learn some off technique.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Lee maybe raw, but he's not that young. I think he's already 25.

[KYPack]

Lee maybe raw, but he's not that young. I think he's already 25.

He looks so young, I didn't think he was that old.

He's 24, redshirted as a freshman.

Didn't start much 'til his senior year.

This surprised me, and gives me pause from his bio...
"As a starter at Auburn, played the vast majority of snaps in press man coverage, rarely playing "off" or in zone coverage".

He looked like a fish out of water in press cover.

I assumed he played college ball in a "off/zone" system.

He could be too green to ever get hip to our system.

[steve823]

Man..when you have Woodson and Harris..2 of the top corners in the leage IMO on your team how can you not learn and get better? Lee should learn from them

[bobblehead]

If you want to be optimistic think how Nick Collins looked his first year and then look at him now. (both raw 2nd rounders with tools).

If you want to be pessimistic...well, I can't think of a 2nd from TT who flopped at this point. I guess you could compare him to Jennings and say he is way behind the curve.

[Fritz]

I guess it comes down to whether he has the tools or is a tool.

Wist, you are relentlessly pessimistic.

[wist43]

No, what it comes down to is what round was he drafted... 2nd round for a developmental guy like Lee??? Way too high. My only point wrt Lee is they reached for him... a huge reach.

[Waldo]

Do you take superior athletes and bet on your coaching, or take inferior athletes with good technique and bet on their weight room/training dedication and physical ability to improve?

Lee was the physically best CB on the board that had at least played at a high level and had some technique. He lacked the experience to recognize all the tricks of the trade and routes that WRs run that more experienced CB's would know.

[mission]

No, what it comes down to is what round was he drafted... 2nd round for a developmental guy like Lee??? Way too high. My only point wrt Lee is they reached for him... a huge reach.

What second rounders aren't reaches? The numbers on second rounders [eventually] starting in the NFL has gotta be less than 20%...

[CaptainKickass]

Other than his contract status, I'd like to read some of y'alls opinions on why Cole can/can't be a Defensive End in this 3/4 scheme.

[The Shadow]

Cole, to me at least, seems to fit that legendary "just a guy" tag.

[Lurker64]

No, what it comes down to is what round was he drafted... 2nd round for a developmental guy like Lee??? Way too high. My only point wrt Lee is they reached for him... a huge reach.

Past the first round you don't have a lot of guys who "have tremendous upside" and "are ready to play right away." Once you get into the later second round you're left with guys with varying levels of "limited upside" and "aren't ready to play right away." If a guy with huge potential and physical ability actually lasts into the late second round, it's because he's very, very green, since if he was ready to play he would have already been drafted.

It's not necessarily the right idea to "always draft the guy on his potential and coach him up" and it's not necessarily the right idea to "always draft the guy who's ready to play and hope he can be better than we think", the secret is to draft a mix of the two depending on your state of your roster. During the 2008 draft, coming off a 13-3 season, it really seemed as though were were more in need of "guys who can eventually be superstars" than "guys who can play at an average NFL starter's level at his position right away", so the Lee pick really does make sense. The Jermichael Finley pick made sense for similar reasons, he's as green as seasick grass but he's got all kinds of star potential if he gets it together.

There's nothing wrong with drafting a guy and developing him for 2-3 years if that guy has a realistic shot of being very, very good after 2-3 years of good coaching. A number of players in the NFL only "got it together" after a few years on the bench, and turned out to be great. Only complain about the Lee pick if you really think there was somebody who would be better both immediately and longterm available at that position, and really every complaint you can level at the Lee pick can probably be leveled at the Brohm pick doubly so.

If we made one bad pick in the 2nd round last year, it's almost certainly Brohm.

[Rastak]

No, what it comes down to is what round was he drafted... 2nd round for a developmental guy like Lee??? Way too high. My only point wrt Lee is they reached for him... a huge reach.

What second rounders aren't reaches? The numbers on second rounders [eventually] starting in the NFL has gotta be less than 20%...



In 2007 it was 28%


In 2006 counting both 2007 and 2006 starts it was 62%.


In 2005 count all to 2009 it's 66%


I think after 2 or 3 years you'd at least hope your 2nd rounder could start. QB's excluded, as they might still be used as a backup for obvious reasons.



edit:

My research was found at:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/draft/2006.htm


further edit: Didn't see the OP's saying future starters. Added some content.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Looking back at that draft it would have been nice to get Natga. If we only knew one day we would be playing in a 3-4.

[KYPack]

Natga might have been the best guy in that first round.

I was scared about his knee. Hawk seemed like the obvious pick.

Most of the picks make it for a few years bc the contracts.

I really think the only finished products in the draft are the first 10-15 picks. After that, you are projecting and guessing.

[BZnDallas]

wasn't Lee the best available corner left at that time of the draft??... and we already had CWood and Al... not to mention 2-3 other guys that had at least some game experience... i don't think it was a bad pick at all... or a reach... weren't some people saying he could have gone late 1st?... i don't think anybody said he was projected as a third... so we got him with our 3rd 2nd round pick... not to shabby in my eyes... but thats just one mans opinion...

[bobblehead]

Do you take superior athletes and bet on your coaching, or take inferior athletes with good technique and bet on their weight room/training dedication and physical ability to improve?

Lee was the physically best CB on the board that had at least played at a high level and had some technique. He lacked the experience to recognize all the tricks of the trade and routes that WRs run that more experienced CB's would know.

TT seems to do both. It seems to me that with his first pick he takes highly instinctual guys who can improve in the weight room, but after that he takes athletes who "might" become studs or flop. In the 6th/7th he seems to take special teams guys who are football players...guys who will hang around and maybe surprise.