"They've really got themselves a defensive staff"

[Partial]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/38509364.html

to paraphrase JSO since they're douches, many people seem to think Darren Perry is one of the finest defensive coaches in the league.

I'm really stoked! I think in a year or two this defense could be special, especially if they go after a stud like Orange Julius Peppers!

[Badgerinmaine]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/38509364.html

to paraphrase JSO since they're douches, many people seem to think Darren Perry is one of the finest defensive coaches in the league.

I'm really stoked! I think in a year or two this defense could be special, especially if they go after a stud like Orange Julius Peppers!

That's one hell of a benediction for Perry in that story coming from Dick LeBeau, who has a reputation as one of the greatest defensive coaches ever. Nice.

[LL2]

As a fan it's hard not to be excited...I would bet the defensive players are pretty excited too!

[Guiness]

Lionel Washington is mentioned in that article. He's one member of the defensive staff I was sorry to see go.

[digitaldean]

Lionel Washington is mentioned in that article. He's one member of the defensive staff I was sorry to see go.

I thought he always got short shrift. I would have been OK with Schotty getting canned at beginning of 2008 season and LW running the DBs himself.

[Jimx29]

that's what she said

[Brando19]

Yeah, I'd say the defensive players are excited, but also scared out of their mind. They're going to be pushed like they've never been pushed before...and there's going to be high expectations. Hope they can take it. I'm excited...come on preseason! And come on Julius Peppers!!!!!

[Carolina_Packer]

As for Peppers being signed by the Pack, it would be a good get, but I don't see it happening. The Panthers can't franchise both Jordan Gross and Peppers, and since Peppers has already said he wants out, I'm guessing that the Panthers might just sign Gross to a deal and franchise Peppers, which means, "too rich for our blood". I don't see TT giving up the requisite draft picks to get Peppers. Also, Peppers is up and down. Who knows if his next team gets the kind of value back from him that they pay out to get him. He seems to take plays off, and that doesn't bode well for a big signing, big money guy.

[Partial]

I'd give up the #9 pick for Peppers in a heart beat. At 9, there is no guarantee you're getting a good player, let alone a stud. The chances they get someone of Peppers level are very slim imo.

Peppers is a top 10 player in the NFL. That is the kind of guy you do what it takes to get.

[LEWCWA]

As for Peppers being signed by the Pack, it would be a good get, but I don't see it happening. The Panthers can't franchise both Jordan Gross and Peppers, and since Peppers has already said he wants out, I'm guessing that the Panthers might just sign Gross to a deal and franchise Peppers, which means, "too rich for our blood". I don't see TT giving up the requisite draft picks to get Peppers. Also, Peppers is up and down. Who knows if his next team gets the kind of value back from him that they pay out to get him. He seems to take plays off, and that doesn't bode well for a big signing, big money guy.

Up and down? He has had one down year! Thats it.....

[Noodle]

I'd give up the #9 pick for Peppers in a heart beat. At 9, there is no guarantee you're getting a good player, let alone a stud. The chances they get someone of Peppers level are very slim imo.

Peppers is a top 10 player in the NFL. That is the kind of guy you do what it takes to get.

I agree. Peppers just turned 29. He's played for 7 seasons, and has started all 16 games every one of those seasons but 2 (his first in 2002 and then "only" 14 in 2007). He looks to be in great shape, and he's clearly a gamer. I'm guessing he has 3 more really good seasons left, which ain't too bad, then 2 where he's still good, but not dominant.

So flip that -- it's rare for a DL draft pick to really show until after their first 2 years (as we've heard ad nausem regarding JH). So you maybe get 2 ok years and hope for 3 or more really good years, but there's no guarantee at all.

Besides, we had a 5 and got Hawk with it. Who wouldn't give up Hawk for Peppers?

[Lurker64]

Besides, we had a 5 and got Hawk with it. Who wouldn't give up Hawk for Peppers?

I wouldn't. I'm almost entirely confident that Hawk can do well in the 3-4, but I'm not sure that Peppers can. If we were still playing a 4-3 and wanted Peppers to play end opposite Kampman, I'd be all for it, but with the 3-4? I'm not sure. Peppers is a great athlete, but I'm not sure he's not too stiff to play in space. Do we think he can play DE in the 3-4?

Personally, I'd rather get a guy like Canty or Olshansky in FA to play DE opposite Jenkins, use the money saved over Peppers to lock up Jennings longterm, take the BPA at #9, and draft a guy like Larry English or Paul Kruger for WOLB later.

Peppers is a great player, but if he can't play OLB in this scheme, do we really want to pay what he costs for a 3-4 DE? Remember, it's always a risk to expend a lot of resources on a guy playing a position he hasn't played before, and you're only guessing he can adapt to it. For those of you who watched Jets games last year, how many thought Vernon Gholston was worthy of the #6 overall pick to play 3-4 OLB, even taking into account his considerable physical gifts and the fact that he schooled the #1 overall pick repeatedly while playing as a 4-3 DE?

[mission]

I have a feelin there wont be too many "taking plays off" with this staff... we're going to see a whole new vibe, results notwithstanding.

Exciting chitt.

[vince]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/38509364.html

to paraphrase JSO since they're douches, many people seem to think Darren Perry is one of the finest defensive coaches in the league.

I'm really stoked! I think in a year or two this defense could be special, especially if they go after a stud like Orange Julius Peppers!

That's one hell of a benediction for Perry in that story coming from Dick LeBeau, who has a reputation as one of the greatest defensive coaches ever. Nice.
My thoughts exactly. Lebeau rose up through the defensive backfield coaching ranks too, so is't safe to say he knows what he's talking about.

It sounds like Perry is not averse to being confrontational when he feels it's needed. Hopefully, guys like Harris, Wood, and Bigby respond positively to such an approach when they're on the receiving end.

It also sounds like a lot of responsibility will likely be placed on Collins' shoulders to communicate effectively and get the DB's in the right coverages. This is a dumb statement to make because I obviously haven't ever spent time with him, but I don't get the sense that he's overly cerebral. He set the coverages under Sanders, but that job was far simpler than it's now going to be, and it took awhile for the backs to gel under Sanders - and Collins in particular seemed to struggle at first. I think it's too simple, and probably inaccurate, to blindly put all the blame on Schottzy for those struggles.

Just an off-the-wall thought, but perhaps this is the time for Woodson to make the permanent move to safety, where they might be able to take advantage of his intelligence and blitzing abilities a bit more than at corner. Also with Williams stepping up last year and perhaps the young talent behind him hopefully making additonal strides as well... Or perhaps drafting Jenkins at #9 if he were available isn't such a bad thought either...

[sheepshead]

With all the close games this year, all we had to do was stop one drive per game and we're in the playoffs. I think a disciplined, inspired unit would accomplish it. That's without any upgrade in personnel on the field!

[Waldo]

With all the close games this year, all we had to do was stop one drive per game and we're in the playoffs. I think a disciplined, inspired unit would accomplish it. That's without any upgrade in personnel on the field!

For how much our local press hammers the talent level of our defense, do they not realize we are missing only 2 top tier backup (Williams, KGB) from the same unit of 2007, and the only old guys are part of the position group playing the best, and with the best depth. IMO we are health, good coaching, a few depth players, and a legit second pass rusher from being back to a top defense.

[Badgerinmaine]

My thoughts exactly. Lebeau rose up through the defensive backfield coaching ranks too, so is't safe to say he knows what he's talking about.



And he was a pretty good DB back in the day for the Lions, too. And why don't they take player shots like this one of LeBeau anymore?
http://io2.steelers.com/MediaContent/2008/11/20/12/Lebeau_Dick_02a_99943.jpg

[Partial]

Besides, we had a 5 and got Hawk with it. Who wouldn't give up Hawk for Peppers?

I wouldn't. I'm almost entirely confident that Hawk can do well in the 3-4, but I'm not sure that Peppers can. If we were still playing a 4-3 and wanted Peppers to play end opposite Kampman, I'd be all for it, but with the 3-4? I'm not sure. Peppers is a great athlete, but I'm not sure he's not too stiff to play in space. Do we think he can play DE in the 3-4?

Personally, I'd rather get a guy like Canty or Olshansky in FA to play DE opposite Jenkins, use the money saved over Peppers to lock up Jennings longterm, take the BPA at #9, and draft a guy like Larry English or Paul Kruger for WOLB later.

Peppers is a great player, but if he can't play OLB in this scheme, do we really want to pay what he costs for a 3-4 DE? Remember, it's always a risk to expend a lot of resources on a guy playing a position he hasn't played before, and you're only guessing he can adapt to it. For those of you who watched Jets games last year, how many thought Vernon Gholston was worthy of the #6 overall pick to play 3-4 OLB, even taking into account his considerable physical gifts and the fact that he schooled the #1 overall pick repeatedly while playing as a 4-3 DE?

So what I gather from your most recent posts is that you claim to watch a ton of Wake Forest football for god knows what reason, but you clearly do not watch the Panthers.

They drop Peppers into coverage all the time. He's already a dominant pass rusher. There is no doubt that he can be incredible in a 3-4. Why wouldn't he be? He already does all of those same things on regular basis and is quite good at them.

Gholston is a rookie. And he's no where near Peppers league in terms of athletic ability. Not even in close. Furthermore, I don't recall seeing Gholston school Jake Long. Not many people have.

Clearly you'd rather take a risky unknown player like Gholston at #9, then get a known entity in his prime. That to me is really, really stupid. Even if they're spectacular, they're NOT going to be better than Peppers, because that is damn near impossible to do.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I'd give up the #9 pick for Peppers in a heart beat. At 9, there is no guarantee you're getting a good player, let alone a stud. The chances they get someone of Peppers level are very slim imo.

Peppers is a top 10 player in the NFL. That is the kind of guy you do what it takes to get.

I wouldn't. I want a stud free agent AND a great player at #9. If getting Peppers requires trading for him then I don't want him. Otherwise I would be very happy to get him.

But like I said before getting Suggs who is younger, very good, has experience in the 3-4, and cheaper would be a better move. Plus you would have more money to give extensions and possibly sign another free agent.

[HarveyWallbangers]

They drop Peppers into coverage all the time.

Apparently, you don't watch much of the Panthers either.

[HarveyWallbangers]

He's already a dominant pass rusher. There is no doubt that he can be incredible in a 3-4. Why wouldn't he be? He already does all of those same things on regular basis and is quite good at them.

Gholston is a rookie. And he's no where near Peppers league in terms of athletic ability. Not even in close.

Peppers = 4.74 40, 22 bench reps
Gholston = 4.67 40, 37 bench reps (most at the combine)

The differences: Peppers is 300 lbs and Gholson is 264 lbs. Gholston is a workout warrior. He looks like Tarzan, but plays like Jane. It's possible Peppers would be a fantastic 3-4 OLB, but it's also possible that he wouldn't be nearly as good as you think he'd be.

[Lurker64]

The fact of the matter is that maybe Peppers can play OLB well in Capers scheme and maybe he can't, but we (as football fans) are in no position to say whether he can or can't based on what we've seen or what we think. Essentially everybody currently employed by the Packers on the defensive coaching or scouting side of the operation is in a much better position to speculate about Peppers after a change in position than either of us are.

What Thompson ought to do is go to Capers and say "Hey, would Julius Peppers be a good fit in this defense?" and then go to Greene and Trgovak and ask them if Peppers would be a good fit in this defense, and if so at what position. Then he ought to ask his pro-scouting staff and ask them what they think about Peppers at that position. Then if the consensus is largely "yes", sign the guy if the deal makes sense for both parties.

The fact that Partial loves Peppers and some of us are skeptical should have no bearing whatsoever on what should happen. If Capers doesn't think he would fit well at OLB in this defense, we shouldn't sign him. I trust Dom Capers a lot more than Partial.

Then, we need to realize that even professional football staffs can fail to accurately predict a player's potential at a different position or in a different scheme (e.g. Gholston, Archuleta, etc.)

[Guiness]

He's already a dominant pass rusher. There is no doubt that he can be incredible in a 3-4. Why wouldn't he be? He already does all of those same things on regular basis and is quite good at them.

Gholston is a rookie. And he's no where near Peppers league in terms of athletic ability. Not even in close.

Peppers = 4.74 40, 22 bench reps
Gholston = 4.67 40, 37 bench reps (most at the combine)

The differences: Peppers is 300 lbs and Gholson is 264 lbs. Gholston is a workout warrior. He looks like Tarzan, but plays like Jane. It's possible Peppers would be a fantastic 3-4 OLB, but it's also possible that he wouldn't be nearly as good as you think he'd be.

Not sure what you're trying to say here HW? I'm not sure which player you are saying you like better. Gholston has better measureables, but plays like Jane - but Peppers might not play well at OLB? Maybe you're just saying it's not cut and dried.



btw I had no idea Peppers was 300lbs!!! That's pretty big for a quick DE, and huge for an OLB, even in a 3-4, isn't it? At that weight, wouldn't he be a candidate for a 3-4 DE?

[HarveyWallbangers]

Not sure what you're trying to say here HW?

Refuting this.


And he's no where near Peppers league in terms of athletic ability. Not even in close.

[mraynrand]

My thoughts exactly. Lebeau rose up through the defensive backfield coaching ranks too, so is't safe to say he knows what he's talking about.



And he was a pretty good DB back in the day for the Lions, too. And why don't they take player shots like this one of LeBeau anymore?
http://io2.steelers.com/MediaContent/2008/11/20/12/Lebeau_Dick_02a_99943.jpg

They should. That's good stuff. Perhaps it's because it looks too much like:
http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/23/90723-004-150F2D20.jpg

[Lurker64]

btw I had no idea Peppers was 300lbs!!! That's pretty big for a quick DE, and huge for an OLB, even in a 3-4, isn't it? At that weight, wouldn't he be a candidate for a 3-4 DE?

Prototype 3-4 DEs run about 6'6" 310. My concern is that Peppers might be a tad oversized (read, underathletic) for a 3-4 OLB and undersized to play DE in the 3-4. Regardless, the amount of money he's going to get paid is not an amount generally paid to 3-4 DEs not named Richard Seymour. So if you sign him to a big contract it's going to be as an OLB. Peppers is an amazing athlete for a 4-3 DE, but the standards for athleticism differ from position to position (obviously). You wouldn't want to take Peppers from a position where he is one of the premier athletes and dominators at that position and try to get him to do something else.

I don't think that Peppers was serious about wanting to play in a 3-4 either, I just think he was trying to get out of Carolina and he wanted to maximize his marketability. He's going to want to be a 4-3 DE where he ends up, since 4-3 DEs get the big money, while 3-4 DEs and 3-4 OLBs don't. To get Peppers you're going to have to pay premier 4-3 DE money for a 3-4 OLB, which is basically unheard of.

[Guiness]

Not sure what you're trying to say here HW?

Refuting this.


And he's no where near Peppers league in terms of athletic ability. Not even in close.

Ah. I took your comment in isolation. My brain has a built in filter, and it seems to have kicked in on anything Partial has written in this thread! :huh:

[Partial]

He's already a dominant pass rusher. There is no doubt that he can be incredible in a 3-4. Why wouldn't he be? He already does all of those same things on regular basis and is quite good at them.

Gholston is a rookie. And he's no where near Peppers league in terms of athletic ability. Not even in close.

Peppers = 4.74 40, 22 bench reps
Gholston = 4.67 40, 37 bench reps (most at the combine)

The differences: Peppers is 300 lbs and Gholson is 264 lbs. Gholston is a workout warrior. He looks like Tarzan, but plays like Jane. It's possible Peppers would be a fantastic 3-4 OLB, but it's also possible that he wouldn't be nearly as good as you think he'd be.

Speed + strength != athletic ability. Remember when we brought in that world class sprinter at receiver. How did that pan out?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

He's already a dominant pass rusher. There is no doubt that he can be incredible in a 3-4. Why wouldn't he be? He already does all of those same things on regular basis and is quite good at them.

Gholston is a rookie. And he's no where near Peppers league in terms of athletic ability. Not even in close.

Peppers = 4.74 40, 22 bench reps
Gholston = 4.67 40, 37 bench reps (most at the combine)

The differences: Peppers is 300 lbs and Gholson is 264 lbs. Gholston is a workout warrior. He looks like Tarzan, but plays like Jane. It's possible Peppers would be a fantastic 3-4 OLB, but it's also possible that he wouldn't be nearly as good as you think he'd be.

Speed + strength != athletic ability. Remember when we brought in that world class sprinter at receiver. How did that pan out?

My god, are you that dense?

Speed...Gholston is faster. Strength..Gholston is stronger. Clearly, BY YOUR OWN DEFINTION gholston has more athletic ability.

[Partial]

He's already a dominant pass rusher. There is no doubt that he can be incredible in a 3-4. Why wouldn't he be? He already does all of those same things on regular basis and is quite good at them.

Gholston is a rookie. And he's no where near Peppers league in terms of athletic ability. Not even in close.

Peppers = 4.74 40, 22 bench reps
Gholston = 4.67 40, 37 bench reps (most at the combine)

The differences: Peppers is 300 lbs and Gholson is 264 lbs. Gholston is a workout warrior. He looks like Tarzan, but plays like Jane. It's possible Peppers would be a fantastic 3-4 OLB, but it's also possible that he wouldn't be nearly as good as you think he'd be.

Speed + strength != athletic ability. Remember when we brought in that world class sprinter at receiver. How did that pan out?

My god, are you that dense?

Speed...Gholston is faster. Strength..Gholston is stronger. Clearly, BY YOUR OWN DEFINTION gholston has more athletic ability.

My definition? I said they're not equal. Clearly you're not a very bright person.

I haven't seen Gholston play basketball on a final four team. I haven't seen Gholston win state championships as both a Sprinter and a triple jumper in the south. He may have, I have no idea, but even so, then he is a tremendous athlete, not a tremendous athlete with unreal size and stature.

[Waldo]

He's already a dominant pass rusher. There is no doubt that he can be incredible in a 3-4. Why wouldn't he be? He already does all of those same things on regular basis and is quite good at them.

Gholston is a rookie. And he's no where near Peppers league in terms of athletic ability. Not even in close.

Peppers = 4.74 40, 22 bench reps
Gholston = 4.67 40, 37 bench reps (most at the combine)

The differences: Peppers is 300 lbs and Gholson is 264 lbs. Gholston is a workout warrior. He looks like Tarzan, but plays like Jane. It's possible Peppers would be a fantastic 3-4 OLB, but it's also possible that he wouldn't be nearly as good as you think he'd be.

Speed + strength != athletic ability. Remember when we brought in that world class sprinter at receiver. How did that pan out?

He's in the pro football HOF (James Lofton). Dallas brought in the worlds fastest man to play WR, he too is in the HOF (Bob Hayes).

[Noodle]

Um, I thought Hayes was up for senior committee consideration this year because he didn't make the HOF during regular voting.

Anyway, the point is that the NFL scrap heap is littered with straight-line super speedsters. Remember Renaldo Skeets Nehemiah? Jim Hines? Tyson Gay? Billy Schroeder?

[Partial]

He's already a dominant pass rusher. There is no doubt that he can be incredible in a 3-4. Why wouldn't he be? He already does all of those same things on regular basis and is quite good at them.

Gholston is a rookie. And he's no where near Peppers league in terms of athletic ability. Not even in close.

Peppers = 4.74 40, 22 bench reps
Gholston = 4.67 40, 37 bench reps (most at the combine)

The differences: Peppers is 300 lbs and Gholson is 264 lbs. Gholston is a workout warrior. He looks like Tarzan, but plays like Jane. It's possible Peppers would be a fantastic 3-4 OLB, but it's also possible that he wouldn't be nearly as good as you think he'd be.

Speed + strength != athletic ability. Remember when we brought in that world class sprinter at receiver. How did that pan out?

He's in the pro football HOF (James Lofton). Dallas brought in the worlds fastest man to play WR, he too is in the HOF (Bob Hayes).

I was referring to the sprinter from two year ago(?). Tyson Gay also had a tryout with the Cowboys I believe, but I could be thinking of someone else.

[Noodle]

Partial, you're thinking of Leo Bookman, I think. Former KU track star. Didn't last long.

[Zool]

Partial, you're thinking of Leo Bookman, I think. Former KU track star. Didn't last long.

He really went downhill after football didnt work out. He's a super at an apartment building somewhere.

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/photopost/data/715/3goodtimesbookman.jpg

[Tyrone Bigguns]

He's already a dominant pass rusher. There is no doubt that he can be incredible in a 3-4. Why wouldn't he be? He already does all of those same things on regular basis and is quite good at them.

Gholston is a rookie. And he's no where near Peppers league in terms of athletic ability. Not even in close.

Peppers = 4.74 40, 22 bench reps
Gholston = 4.67 40, 37 bench reps (most at the combine)

The differences: Peppers is 300 lbs and Gholson is 264 lbs. Gholston is a workout warrior. He looks like Tarzan, but plays like Jane. It's possible Peppers would be a fantastic 3-4 OLB, but it's also possible that he wouldn't be nearly as good as you think he'd be.

Speed + strength != athletic ability. Remember when we brought in that world class sprinter at receiver. How did that pan out?

My god, are you that dense?

Speed...Gholston is faster. Strength..Gholston is stronger. Clearly, BY YOUR OWN DEFINTION gholston has more athletic ability.

My definition? I said they're not equal. Clearly you're not a very bright person.

I haven't seen Gholston play basketball on a final four team. I haven't seen Gholston win state championships as both a Sprinter and a triple jumper in the south. He may have, I have no idea, but even so, then he is a tremendous athlete, not a tremendous athlete with unreal size and stature.

You said Peppers is a better athlete. By your stated formula Gholston is clearly superior.

What you have seen: Who cares. Peppers was a role player on the UNC bball team. A role player because they had so few players, especially ones that had some physicality.

[Partial]

He's already a dominant pass rusher. There is no doubt that he can be incredible in a 3-4. Why wouldn't he be? He already does all of those same things on regular basis and is quite good at them.

Gholston is a rookie. And he's no where near Peppers league in terms of athletic ability. Not even in close.

Peppers = 4.74 40, 22 bench reps
Gholston = 4.67 40, 37 bench reps (most at the combine)

The differences: Peppers is 300 lbs and Gholson is 264 lbs. Gholston is a workout warrior. He looks like Tarzan, but plays like Jane. It's possible Peppers would be a fantastic 3-4 OLB, but it's also possible that he wouldn't be nearly as good as you think he'd be.

Speed + strength != athletic ability. Remember when we brought in that world class sprinter at receiver. How did that pan out?

My god, are you that dense?

Speed...Gholston is faster. Strength..Gholston is stronger. Clearly, BY YOUR OWN DEFINTION gholston has more athletic ability.

My definition? I said they're not equal. Clearly you're not a very bright person.

I haven't seen Gholston play basketball on a final four team. I haven't seen Gholston win state championships as both a Sprinter and a triple jumper in the south. He may have, I have no idea, but even so, then he is a tremendous athlete, not a tremendous athlete with unreal size and stature.

You said Peppers is a better athlete. By your stated formula Gholston is clearly superior.

What you have seen: Who cares. Peppers was a role player on the UNC bball team. A role player because they had so few players, especially ones that had some physicality.

Where did I state a formula? What the heck are you talking about?

Role player? Sure, maybe, but I'll gladly take a guy doing the dirty work. He came up with some huge games including 18 points, 10 boards in the NCAA tournament. Hard to deny he was a key player.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

He's already a dominant pass rusher. There is no doubt that he can be incredible in a 3-4. Why wouldn't he be? He already does all of those same things on regular basis and is quite good at them.

Gholston is a rookie. And he's no where near Peppers league in terms of athletic ability. Not even in close.

Peppers = 4.74 40, 22 bench reps
Gholston = 4.67 40, 37 bench reps (most at the combine)

The differences: Peppers is 300 lbs and Gholson is 264 lbs. Gholston is a workout warrior. He looks like Tarzan, but plays like Jane. It's possible Peppers would be a fantastic 3-4 OLB, but it's also possible that he wouldn't be nearly as good as you think he'd be.

Speed + strength != athletic ability. Remember when we brought in that world class sprinter at receiver. How did that pan out?

My god, are you that dense?

Speed...Gholston is faster. Strength..Gholston is stronger. Clearly, BY YOUR OWN DEFINTION gholston has more athletic ability.

My definition? I said they're not equal. Clearly you're not a very bright person.

I haven't seen Gholston play basketball on a final four team. I haven't seen Gholston win state championships as both a Sprinter and a triple jumper in the south. He may have, I have no idea, but even so, then he is a tremendous athlete, not a tremendous athlete with unreal size and stature.

You said Peppers is a better athlete. By your stated formula Gholston is clearly superior.

What you have seen: Who cares. Peppers was a role player on the UNC bball team. A role player because they had so few players, especially ones that had some physicality.

Where did I state a formula? What the heck are you talking about?

Role player? Sure, maybe, but I'll gladly take a guy doing the dirty work. He came up with some huge games including 18 points, 10 boards in the NCAA tournament. Hard to deny he was a key player.

Why don't you just scan the top of this page where you wrote, "Speed + strength != athletic ability."

Role player: you are switching the argument. No one is debating the merits of his role or his contributions.

The two squads he played on were horrific in terms of talent. Only one player was even marginal in the NBA, B. Haywood.

BTW, you can keep wikiing all you want, but that 18 point game (which was actually 21 points :lol: ) was against a very average PSU squad...and it was a loss. UNC losing to PSU. That should tell you all you need to know.

Funny how stats don't matter with Redd, but they do for peppers on a losing team.

[Bossman641]

He's already a dominant pass rusher. There is no doubt that he can be incredible in a 3-4. Why wouldn't he be? He already does all of those same things on regular basis and is quite good at them.

Gholston is a rookie. And he's no where near Peppers league in terms of athletic ability. Not even in close.

Peppers = 4.74 40, 22 bench reps
Gholston = 4.67 40, 37 bench reps (most at the combine)

The differences: Peppers is 300 lbs and Gholson is 264 lbs. Gholston is a workout warrior. He looks like Tarzan, but plays like Jane. It's possible Peppers would be a fantastic 3-4 OLB, but it's also possible that he wouldn't be nearly as good as you think he'd be.

Speed + strength != athletic ability. Remember when we brought in that world class sprinter at receiver. How did that pan out?

My god, are you that dense?

Speed...Gholston is faster. Strength..Gholston is stronger. Clearly, BY YOUR OWN DEFINTION gholston has more athletic ability.

My definition? I said they're not equal. Clearly you're not a very bright person.

I haven't seen Gholston play basketball on a final four team. I haven't seen Gholston win state championships as both a Sprinter and a triple jumper in the south. He may have, I have no idea, but even so, then he is a tremendous athlete, not a tremendous athlete with unreal size and stature.

You said Peppers is a better athlete. By your stated formula Gholston is clearly superior.

What you have seen: Who cares. Peppers was a role player on the UNC bball team. A role player because they had so few players, especially ones that had some physicality.

Where did I state a formula? What the heck are you talking about?

Role player? Sure, maybe, but I'll gladly take a guy doing the dirty work. He came up with some huge games including 18 points, 10 boards in the NCAA tournament. Hard to deny he was a key player.

Why don't you just scan the top of this page where you wrote, "Speed + strength != athletic ability."

Role player: you are switching the argument. No one is debating the merits of his role or his contributions.

The two squads he played on were horrific in terms of talent. Only one player was even marginal in the NBA, B. Haywood.

BTW, you can keep wikiing all you want, but that 18 point game (which was actually 21 points :lol: ) was against a very average PSU squad...and it was a loss. UNC losing to PSU. That should tell you all you need to know.

Funny how stats don't matter with Redd, but they do for peppers on a losing team.

TB, I think Partial's equation was supposed to mean Speed and Strength is not equal to athletic ability.

I don't agree it, because IMO Peppers is more of a "speed and strength" guy then a fluid "athlete." And yea, Peppers was nothing special as a basketball player.

[Partial]

(speed) speed (plus) + (strength) strength (not equal) != (athletic ability) athletic ability.

What is so hard to comprehend about that?

We're not discussing the merits of his skills on the basketball floor. The fact he was a good enough athlete to play college basketball on a team loaded with talent (I don't buy your argument) says plenty, as well as his ability to win state championships in Sprinting and in the triple jump.

His willingness to be a role player shows hes comfortable checking his ego at the door and be a great team player. I would love to take a potentially dominating player who will sacrifice their personal accomplishments for the betterment of the team!

OK Bossman, I guess being a very accomplished three sport athlete makes him just a speed guy :D His accomplishments in pass coverage (read: fluid athlete) are well documented, so I'm not sure what you're expecting.

He's not going to be expected to cover WRs. He's going to be expected to man a zone, or cover a TE. I think he would do just fine either way, so long as the tight end isn't a Gates type that every LB struggles with.

[Lurker64]

I think part of what's got you confused Tyrone is that it's common computer science parlance to use the string "!=" as shorthand for "is not equal to" or "doesn't equal."

So what Partial is saying is that "Strength and Speed is not the same as athleticism", which, while technically true, ignores the fact that Strength and Speed are certainly important parts of "what makes up athleticism."

Really, athleticism is a combination of strength, flexibility, straight line speed, lateral speed, explosiveness, change of direction ability, and fluidity. Gholston, interestingly, is impressive at nearly all of the above for a man his size. He's not a good OLB though.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

(speed) speed (plus) + (strength) strength (not equal) != (athletic ability) athletic ability.

What is so hard to comprehend about that?

We're not discussing the merits of his skills on the basketball floor. The fact he was a good enough athlete to play college basketball on a team loaded with talent (I don't buy your argument) says plenty, as well as his ability to win state championships in Sprinting and in the triple jump.

His willingness to be a role player shows hes comfortable checking his ego at the door and be a great team player. I would love to take a potentially dominating player who will sacrifice their personal accomplishments for the betterment of the team!

OK Bossman, I guess being a very accomplished three sport athlete makes him just a speed guy :D His accomplishments in pass coverage (read: fluid athlete) are well documented, so I'm not sure what you're expecting.

He's not going to be expected to cover WRs. He's going to be expected to man a zone, or cover a TE. I think he would do just fine either way, so long as the tight end isn't a Gates type that every LB struggles with.

Where did you say not equal? this (!=) is the universally understood for not equal? :lol:

[Bossman641]

(speed) speed (plus) + (strength) strength (not equal) != (athletic ability) athletic ability.

What is so hard to comprehend about that?

We're not discussing the merits of his skills on the basketball floor. The fact he was a good enough athlete to play college basketball on a team loaded with talent (I don't buy your argument) says plenty, as well as his ability to win state championships in Sprinting and in the triple jump.

His willingness to be a role player shows hes comfortable checking his ego at the door and be a great team player. I would love to take a potentially dominating player who will sacrifice their personal accomplishments for the betterment of the team!

OK Bossman, I guess being a very accomplished three sport athlete makes him just a speed guy :D His accomplishments in pass coverage (read: fluid athlete) are well documented, so I'm not sure what you're expecting.

He's not going to be expected to cover WRs. He's going to be expected to man a zone, or cover a TE. I think he would do just fine either way, so long as the tight end isn't a Gates type that every LB struggles with.

Please tell me about his "well-documented" accomplishments in pass coverage. I'm not saying he can't cover a zone, I just don't get where you keep coming up with BS that he dropped into coverage all the time. I disagree with you. He dropped into coverage occassionally, but certainly not with any regularity.


His willingness to be a role player shows hes comfortable checking his ego at the door and be a great team player. I would love to take a potentially dominating player who will sacrifice their personal accomplishments for the betterment of the team! WHAT??

You act like he was an all-world basketball player and CHOSE to be a role player rather than showcase his abilities. He simply wasn't that good at basketball. He had size and bulk with some skills, that's it. I remember watching many of his games. He scored almost exclusively on garbage buckets - putbacks. He wasn't facing guys up or playing with his back to the basket. Those UNC team were led by Cota, Forte, Capel, and Haywood and even those guys were nothing special. Geez, Peppers averaged 4.5 and then 7 points a game. Again - off of garbage buckets. He played bball because it was his first love and I'm assuming (I could be wrong) that UNC told him he could play bball there when they were recruiting him.

Dou you realize how many college athletes were 2 or 3 sport stars in high school? Tons. How many times did we hear about Gilbert Brown being a track star in high school???

[Tyrone Bigguns]

[quote=Partial](speed) speed (plus) + (strength) strength (not equal) != (athletic ability) athletic ability.

What is so hard to comprehend about that?

We're not discussing the merits of his skills on the basketball floor. The fact he was a good enough athlete to play college basketball on a team loaded with talent (I don't buy your argument) says plenty, as well as his ability to win state championships in Sprinting and in the triple jump.

His willingness to be a role player shows hes comfortable checking his ego at the door and be a great team player. I would love to take a potentially dominating player who will sacrifice their personal accomplishments for the betterment of the team!

OK Bossman, I guess being a very accomplished three sport athlete makes him just a speed guy :D His accomplishments in pass coverage (read: fluid athlete) are well documented, so I'm not sure what you're expecting.

He's not going to be expected to cover WRs. He's going to be expected to man a zone, or cover a TE. I think he would do just fine either way, so long as the tight end isn't a Gates type that every LB struggles with.

Where did you say not equal? this (!=) is the universally understood for not equal? :lol:

You might converse in a language understood by all.

Good enough? LOL The reason he was on the squad is that they were devoid of talent. That is the reason ron curry was on it as well. You don't know bball..and certainly not college bball. When UNC puts out one pro out of 2 years..that is terrible. That squad was terrible cause Gut couldn't recruit cos other coaches used his age against him. Then, the hired Matt Doherty and he started in 00 and lasted 3 years.

Talented: Like whom? Who exactly was good on those squads? They had a bunch of white stiffs playing PF..that is why he could play at all. Kris Lang anyone. Brian Bersticker. Joe Everett. Matt Laczkowski :lol:

Those teams were devoid of talent and big men.

Those squads had 3 decent jr/sr players: ed cota, jeff capel and haywood. The rest of the team was stiffs. The only other decent player on those squads was a young knucklehead named joe forte who couldn't make it in the NBA as well. Forte was the high school teammate of a guy who was thought to have attitude problems worse than him..Keith Bogans..who has managed to carve out a nice career.

Yep, and then the great UNC 01-02 squad..full of talent went 8-20. :oops:

Many football players could be role players. That isn't any sort of accomplishment. And, many bball players could play football as reserves.

Ego: Oh, lord. You just make it up as you go along.

Accomplished in 3 sports? Say what. Being good in high school isn't being an accomplished athlete. If that is the case, there are 1000s of accomplished athletes.

And, now you backpedal about him covering TEs, etc. Peppers never drops into coverage. That is a joke. Whether he can do it is another question, but you haven't seen him do it.

[Bossman641]

Please tell me about his "well-documented" accomplishments in pass coverage. I'm not saying he can't cover a zone, I just don't get where you keep coming up with BS that he dropped into coverage all the time. I disagree with you. He dropped into coverage occassionally, but certainly not with any regularity.

Quote:
His willingness to be a role player shows hes comfortable checking his ego at the door and be a great team player. I would love to take a potentially dominating player who will sacrifice their personal accomplishments for the betterment of the team!
WHAT??

You act like he was an all-world basketball player and CHOSE to be a role player rather than showcase his abilities. He simply wasn't that good at basketball. He had size and bulk with some skills, that's it. I remember watching many of his games. He scored almost exclusively on garbage buckets - putbacks. He wasn't facing guys up or playing with his back to the basket. Those UNC team were led by Cota, Forte, Capel, and Haywood and even those guys were nothing special. Geez, Peppers averaged 4.5 and then 7 points a game. Again - off of garbage buckets. He played bball because it was his first love and I'm assuming (I could be wrong) that UNC told him he could play bball there when they were recruiting him.

Dou you realize how many college athletes were 2 or 3 sport stars in high school? Tons. How many times did we hear about Gilbert Brown being a track star in high school???


Good enough? LOL The reason he was on the squad is that they were devoid of talent. That is the reason ron curry was on it as well. You don't know bball..and certainly not college bball. When UNC puts out one pro out of 2 years..that is terrible. That squad was terrible cause Gut couldn't recruit cos other coaches used his age against him.

Talented: Like whom? Who exactly was good on those squads? They had a bunch of white stiffs playing PF..that is why he could play at all. Kris Lang anyone. Brian Bersticker. Joe Everett. Matt Laczkowski

Those teams were devoid of talent and big men.

Those squads had 3 decent jr/sr players: ed cota, jeff capel and haywood. The rest of the team was stiffs. The only other decent player on those squads was a young knucklehead named joe forte who couldn't make it in the NBA as well. Forte was the high school teammate of a guy who was thought to have attitude problems worse than him..Keith Bogans..who has managed to carve out a nice career.

Many football players could be role players. That isn't any sort of accomplishment. And, many bball players could play football as reserves.

Ego: Oh, lord. You just make it up as you go along.

Accomplished in 3 sports? Say what. Being good in high school isn't being an accomplished athlete. If that is the case, there are 1000s of accomplished athletes.

And, now you backpedal about him covering TEs, etc. Peppers never drops into coverage. That is a joke. Whether he can do it is another question, but you haven't seen him do it.

LOL. I guess we should have just combined our posts into one mega-post. I forgot how shitty those UNC teams were until I looked up the roster. Ouch.

[Rastak]

!= means not equal.

or

<> in some cases.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Bossman,

Yep.

Partial is living in his own dreamworld. Ty remembers the Cinderalla run that 01 squad had. Then, 8-20.

UNC had as many white stiffs as your average UW team.

Even the "talented" recruits didnt' really pan out: Jackie Manuel, Jawad williams, melvin scott.

It wasn't till the great 02-3 squad that they got some real talent: Sean May, ray felton, david Noel, rashad mccants. And, we all saw how quickly they supplanted the upper classmen.

Course, the immortal 3 year letterman Phillip Mclamb did invent "bar in a box."

[Tyrone Bigguns]

!= means not equal.

or

<> in some cases.

I'm familiar with the <> or the slash through the equal sign.

[Lurker64]

!= means not equal.

or

<> in some cases.

I'm familiar with the <> or the slash through the equal sign.

"!=" is popular in a lot of programming contexts since it's very simple to type and it's all low numbered ASCII. Most people's keyboards don't have a ≠ key.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

!= means not equal.

or

<> in some cases.

I'm familiar with the <> or the slash through the equal sign.

"!=" is popular in a lot of programming contexts since it's very simple to type and it's all low numbered ASCII. Most people's keyboards don't have a ≠ key.

Of course not, but most people are familiar with it..basic math. Most people aren't programmers.

[Waldo]

!= means not equal.

or

<> in some cases.

I'm familiar with the <> or the slash through the equal sign.

"!=" is popular in a lot of programming contexts since it's very simple to type and it's all low numbered ASCII. Most people's keyboards don't have a ≠ key.

=/= isn't too hard though. :wink:

[Packers4Ever]

As for Peppers being signed by the Pack, it would be a good get, but I don't see it happening. The Panthers can't franchise both Jordan Gross and Peppers, and since Peppers has already said he wants out, I'm guessing that the Panthers might just sign Gross to a deal and franchise Peppers, which means, "too rich for our blood". I don't see TT giving up the requisite draft picks to get Peppers. Also, Peppers is up and down. Who knows if his next team gets the kind of value back from him that they pay out to get him. He seems to take plays off, and that doesn't bode well for a big signing, big money guy.

CP, when you hear the warnings, sure sends out signals to me too! All this IS exciting to us when you think of 2007 and the changes we might have ahead but I kind of like solid but safe, myself... :?:

[Patler]

Peppers has an unusually high number of "passes defensed" (36 in 7 years) and interceptions (4) for a lineman. It suggests (but is not definitive) that he is used in coverage with some frequency. Kampman's numbers for example, also for 7 seasons, are 8 passes defensed, 0 interceptions. Jason Taylor's for 12 seasons are 55 and 7.

[Pugger]

My thoughts exactly. Lebeau rose up through the defensive backfield coaching ranks too, so is't safe to say he knows what he's talking about.



And he was a pretty good DB back in the day for the Lions, too. And why don't they take player shots like this one of LeBeau anymore?
http://io2.steelers.com/MediaContent/2008/11/20/12/Lebeau_Dick_02a_99943.jpg

They should. That's good stuff. Perhaps it's because it looks too much like:
http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/23/90723-004-150F2D20.jpg

Yes, Astaire was a geeky looking guy but if you really watch the way he danced - especially tap - he was spectacular and athletic.

[DonHutson]

I'm assuming (I could be wrong) that UNC told him he could play bball there when they were recruiting him.

I don't have an opinion either way about what Peppers playing hoops means for his suitability to a 3-4 defense.

I really doubt, however, that Carolina is giving away spots on its basketball team as a means to recruit football players. Mediocre by Tar Heel standards is still pretty damn good.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I'm assuming (I could be wrong) that UNC told him he could play bball there when they were recruiting him.

I don't have an opinion either way about what Peppers playing hoops means for his suitability to a 3-4 defense.

I really doubt, however, that Carolina is giving away spots on its basketball team as a means to recruit football players. Mediocre by Tar Heel standards is still pretty damn good.

Then you would be wrong. Peppers and Curry weren't given bball schollies and joined the team after the football season. Peppers role was as I and bossman stated....get rebounds down low and garbage baskets.

Peppers woulda had a hard time offering much to a low d1 program. He was a far cry from Gates and Gonzalez.

[Bossman641]

I'm assuming (I could be wrong) that UNC told him he could play bball there when they were recruiting him.

I don't have an opinion either way about what Peppers playing hoops means for his suitability to a 3-4 defense.

I really doubt, however, that Carolina is giving away spots on its basketball team as a means to recruit football players. Mediocre by Tar Heel standards is still pretty damn good.

I'm not sure why you would find this idea so far-fetched. Many schools tell 2 sport recruits that they'll give them the option to play 2 sports as an incentive to get them to go there.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I'm assuming (I could be wrong) that UNC told him he could play bball there when they were recruiting him.

I don't have an opinion either way about what Peppers playing hoops means for his suitability to a 3-4 defense.

I really doubt, however, that Carolina is giving away spots on its basketball team as a means to recruit football players. Mediocre by Tar Heel standards is still pretty damn good.

I'm not sure why you would find this idea so far-fetched. Many schools tell 2 sport recruits that they'll give them the option to play 2 sports as an incentive to get them to go there.

Quite true.

I recall that one of the losing selling points of Wisco was that they cut baseball. Many of the athletes wanted to be able to play that as their second sport.

[Bossman641]

In fact:


Determined to have his cake and eat it too, Julius focused on schools close to home that would allow him to suit up in football and basketball. He ultimately picked North Carolina, where coach Carl Torbush offered Julius a full ride for his gridiron skills, and had no quams with him walking on to the Tar Heels hoops team. Julius was delighted to be attending the alma mater of his hero Jordan.

[Merlin]

I'd give up the #9 pick for Peppers in a heart beat. At 9, there is no guarantee you're getting a good player, let alone a stud. The chances they get someone of Peppers level are very slim imo.

Peppers is a top 10 player in the NFL. That is the kind of guy you do what it takes to get.

Too bad you aren't the one negotiating for players for the Packers. I agree going to the 3-4 Peppers would be the right addition. We wouldn't want to make the "right" decision, we want to rebuild for another 2 years by going to the 3-4. That is the MO of Packers management. I think they are bringing in the right coaches but as has been pointed out numerous times, we don't have the personnel currently to pull this off and I doubt Thompson pulls the trigger on anything as big as Peppers.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Who gives a rat's ass what you think Merlin?

Anyone with a Jet's hat for an avatar hold's no respect in this forum.

[Merlin]

At least as many people care about what I have to say as those who care about what a crack smoking drug addict has to say. Apparently all of those drugs has caused you to have vision problems as it isn't a "Jets" hat, in fact the hat supports two teams and a player, dipshit.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

At least as many people care about what I have to say as those who care about what a crack smoking drug addict has to say. Apparently all of those drugs has caused you to have vision problems as it isn't a "Jets" hat, in fact the hat supports two teams and a player, dipshit.

Really? Where is the gold if it is a packer hat. Why is the Jets and NY so prominent and there is a little G.

No fucking self respecting packer fan would ever have a hat with two logos, nor would they support two teams.

[SnakeLH2006]

I'd give up the #9 pick for Peppers in a heart beat. At 9, there is no guarantee you're getting a good player, let alone a stud. The chances they get someone of Peppers level are very slim imo.

Peppers is a top 10 player in the NFL. That is the kind of guy you do what it takes to get.

I wouldn't. I want a stud free agent AND a great player at #9. If getting Peppers requires trading for him then I don't want him. Otherwise I would be very happy to get him.

But like I said before getting Suggs who is younger, very good, has experience in the 3-4, and cheaper would be a better move. Plus you would have more money to give extensions and possibly sign another free agent.

I agree..Suggs is what the Dr. ordered. I don't mind Peppers, but is he the same player he was years ago? You don't hear as much about him anymore and I wouldn't trade high picks for him, if they sign him, sweet, but Suggs is a man-beast for the 3-4.

[DonHutson]

In fact:


Determined to have his cake and eat it too, Julius focused on schools close to home that would allow him to suit up in football and basketball. He ultimately picked North Carolina, where coach Carl Torbush offered Julius a full ride for his gridiron skills, and had no quams with him walking on to the Tar Heels hoops team. Julius was delighted to be attending the alma mater of his hero Jordan.

Maybe I'm drawing too fine a line, but to me letting him walk on is not exactly the same as the hoops team taking him simply to appease the football program. Anybody can try to walk on anywhere. The fact that he got some minutes and didn't just ride the pine, on a team that can have damn near any player it wants should suggest he must have been halfway decent.

If I'm the head basketball coach at Carolina, or Duke, or Kansas, or Kentucky and the football coach tries to get me to take some player I don't want I don't just tell the football coach no... I tell him to go home and get his fucking shinebox.

So I have no doubt he was a football player first. I have no doubt that the orpportunity to play hoops at Carolina influenced his decision to play football there. But I still don't see why they would actually put him on the floor for hoops if he was really a marginal DI talent. Even to do the grunt work. UNC could get almost any player they wanted to do the grunt work.

Maybe its as you say, but it makes no sense to me.

[Fritz]

In fact:


Determined to have his cake and eat it too, Julius focused on schools close to home that would allow him to suit up in football and basketball. He ultimately picked North Carolina, where coach Carl Torbush offered Julius a full ride for his gridiron skills, and had no quams with him walking on to the Tar Heels hoops team. Julius was delighted to be attending the alma mater of his hero Jordan.

Maybe I'm drawing too fine a line, but to me letting him walk on is not exactly the same as the hoops team taking him simply to appease the football program. Anybody can try to walk on anywhere. The fact that he got some minutes and didn't just ride the pine, on a team that can have damn near any player it wants should suggest he must have been halfway decent.

If I'm the head basketball coach at Carolina, or Duke, or Kansas, or Kentucky and the football coach tries to get me to take some player I don't want I don't just tell the football coach no... I tell him to go home and get his fucking shinebox.

So I have no doubt he was a football player first. I have no doubt that the orpportunity to play hoops at Carolina influenced his decision to play football there. But I still don't see why they would actually put him on the floor for hoops if he was really a marginal DI talent. Even to do the grunt work. UNC could get almost any player they wanted to do the grunt work.

Maybe its as you say, but it makes no sense to me.

It's just weird to read about a man that big being described as "delighted."

But I'm delighted they did so.

[Bossman641]

In fact:


Determined to have his cake and eat it too, Julius focused on schools close to home that would allow him to suit up in football and basketball. He ultimately picked North Carolina, where coach Carl Torbush offered Julius a full ride for his gridiron skills, and had no quams with him walking on to the Tar Heels hoops team. Julius was delighted to be attending the alma mater of his hero Jordan.

Maybe I'm drawing too fine a line, but to me letting him walk on is not exactly the same as the hoops team taking him simply to appease the football program. Anybody can try to walk on anywhere. The fact that he got some minutes and didn't just ride the pine, on a team that can have damn near any player it wants should suggest he must have been halfway decent.

If I'm the head basketball coach at Carolina, or Duke, or Kansas, or Kentucky and the football coach tries to get me to take some player I don't want I don't just tell the football coach no... I tell him to go home and get his fucking shinebox.

So I have no doubt he was a football player first. I have no doubt that the orpportunity to play hoops at Carolina influenced his decision to play football there. But I still don't see why they would actually put him on the floor for hoops if he was really a marginal DI talent. Even to do the grunt work. UNC could get almost any player they wanted to do the grunt work.

Maybe its as you say, but it makes no sense to me.

I think we are closer in our thought process then you think. I wasn't trying to say that the football coach was like "hey we got this player we really want. You think you can let him play some so that he'll go here." It was more that he knew he would be given the opportunity to try and walk on to the bball team. Many coaches want their players to only concentrate on 1 sport. Peppers himself found out that by playing bball he was behind in football when spring practices rolled around. That's why he gave up bball, so he could focus solely on football.

He was a decent basketball player is all I was trying to say. His strengths were more his size then his actual basketball skills, if that makes sense. It's not like 6'7" 250 lb guys grow on trees. Plus, UNC's PF's were garbage when he was there so he was able to fill a role with them.

[DonHutson]

I think we are closer in our thought process then you think. I wasn't trying to say that the football coach was like "hey we got this player we really want. You think you can let him play some so that he'll go here." It was more that he knew he would be given the opportunity to try and walk on to the bball team.

I see. I read it the other way, but I probably read more than was there.

[mission]

I think we are closer in our thought process then you think. I wasn't trying to say that the football coach was like "hey we got this player we really want. You think you can let him play some so that he'll go here." It was more that he knew he would be given the opportunity to try and walk on to the bball team.

I see. I read it the other way, but I probably read more than was there.

The guy is physically huge. Duke, NC or anyone else - especially in this day and age - would have no problem with a guy like that on the bench. That's not a favor thing ... hardly anyone has that body in the starting 5 let alone top 12 twelve. If the kid is 17/18 and has those measurable s, they will always get a shot.



PS - ty is right about the self respecting fan hat ... there is no way in hell i would be seen with that hat on. brett favre or not .. a jets hat?! come on .. booooo...