3-4 Defensive Lineman

[Farley Face]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/38512934.html

So why does Peppers want to play in a 3-4? Does he envision himself as a strong side LB? I can't imagine.

Seems DEs in the 3-4 do the grunt work according to this article. Jenkins has already mentioned he has spoke to Corey Williams who moved to a DE in a 3-4 and was not interested in making a similar transition. Jolly will be in a contract year in '09 I believe, he'll want to do more than make Hawk/Bishop/Whoever look good.

And is Pickett a true nose in this D?

I trust Capers will do as he said and form the defense around his talent but this article made me burp up a little kool-aid.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Does he envision himself as a strong side LB?

Yes.


Seems DEs in the 3-4 do the grunt work according to this article. Jenkins has already mentioned he has spoke to Corey Williams who moved to a DE in a 3-4 and was not interested in making a similar transition.

He may not be interested, but with the money he's making he'll do it. He's never been one to stir the pot.


Jolly will be in a contract year in '09 I believe, he'll want to do more than make Hawk/Bishop/Whoever look good.

I'm not sure Jolly is good enough for us to worry about. If he can make the transition, playing 3-4 DE isn't all that much different than playing 4-3 DT.


JAnd is Pickett a true nose in this D?

Why not?

[Partial]

Jenkins will be a pretty good 3-4 DE and still get some pressure I would think. He's pretty strong, so I think he'll do fine matched up on his man helmet to helmet.

With that said, if Jenkins could stay healthy as a starting end and consistently be counted on to play up to his potential, I don't think we're having this discussion as we have a very talented 4-3 DL. However, this is simple not the case, so we cannot focus on what is going to make Jenkins happy.

I would think that Peppers would play the weak side linebacker ala Sean Merriman. He's more athletic, longer, faster, and would be an even better pass rusher imo.

Sign him up Teets!

[Waldo]

Jenkins will be a pretty good 3-4 DE and still get some pressure I would think. He's pretty strong, so I think he'll do fine matched up on his man helmet to helmet.

With that said, if Jenkins could stay healthy as a starting end and consistently be counted on to play up to his potential, I don't think we're having this discussion as we have a very talented 4-3 DL. However, this is simple not the case, so we cannot focus on what is going to make Jenkins happy.

I would think that Peppers would play the weak side linebacker ala Sean Merriman. He's more athletic, longer, faster, and would be an even better pass rusher imo.

Sign him up Teets!

Kirwin was interviewing Simeon Rice and asked about Pep and his desire to switch to a 3-4. Rice just laughed and said he's too "stiff" to be any good at OLB. They are all firmly convinced that Pep has no interest in a 3-4, it is a ploy to make it easier to get out of his contract, and expand the market for him to increase his value. Pep would be a dominant 3-4 DE, but 3-4 DE's don't make 10M/yr.

[Fritz]

Here's what I would like someone to help me understand:

The big criticism of Bates's scheme was that it required great line play. And since great defensive linemen are so hard to find, the thinking seemed to be, you use a system that was not so dependent upon the defensive line.

Now I read an article in the JSO in which Keith Butler, a Steeres' coach, says that in order for the 3-4 to be successful, you absolutely must have . . . great line play.

So maybe you need great line play in any system. Okay. But why then did the Bates system get criticized because it required so much of its defensive linemen?

[AV David]

"So maybe you need great line play in any system. Okay. But why then did the Bates system get criticized because it required so much of its defensive linemen?"

In a 3 - 4 you only need to find 3 good DL.

Also, it is easier to find OLBs for the 3-4 than it is to find DEs in the 4-3.

[Partial]

Jenkins will be a pretty good 3-4 DE and still get some pressure I would think. He's pretty strong, so I think he'll do fine matched up on his man helmet to helmet.

With that said, if Jenkins could stay healthy as a starting end and consistently be counted on to play up to his potential, I don't think we're having this discussion as we have a very talented 4-3 DL. However, this is simple not the case, so we cannot focus on what is going to make Jenkins happy.

I would think that Peppers would play the weak side linebacker ala Sean Merriman. He's more athletic, longer, faster, and would be an even better pass rusher imo.

Sign him up Teets!

Kirwin was interviewing Simeon Rice and asked about Pep and his desire to switch to a 3-4. Rice just laughed and said he's too "stiff" to be any good at OLB. They are all firmly convinced that Pep has no interest in a 3-4, it is a ploy to make it easier to get out of his contract, and expand the market for him to increase his value. Pep would be a dominant 3-4 DE, but 3-4 DE's don't make 10M/yr.

Well, thats good and nice, but I completely disagree. I think that Simeon Rice would be laughing the same way if someone said the same thing about less physically blessed Jason Taylor as a 3-4 LB, and we all know how well that worked.

Peppers athletic numbers from the combine are off the charts and better than most LBs. That, paired with the fact he's an A) dominate pass rusher who B) is dropped into coverage quite frequently and shines leads me to believe that he will be the best 3-4 LB in the league almost immediately.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think that Simeon Rice would be laughing the same way if someone said the same thing about less physically blessed Jason Taylor as a 3-4 LB, and we all know how well that worked.

I wouldn't say Jason Taylor is less physically blessed than Peppers. I'm betting he timed faster in the 40 and had better agility but is smaller than Peppers. This Peppers fetish is getting weird. Yes, he was extremely talented FOR A BIG MAN. That doesn't mean his agility scores tested as well as the upper echelon OLBs.

Peppers' 4.74 40 time is great for a big DE, but it's very pedestrian for an OLB. Hell, Aaron Kampman timed faster than Peppers.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=56212&draftyear=2002&genpos=DE

[cheesner]

Jolly will be in a contract year in '09 I believe, he'll want to do more than make Hawk/Bishop/Whoever look good.

I'm not sure Jolly is good enough for us to worry about. If he can make the transition, playing 3-4 DE isn't all that much different than playing 4-3 DT.


If the Packers start having more defensive success and more wins next season, and if Jolly doesn't enjoy team success over his own stats - we are better off without him.

[Partial]

I think that Simeon Rice would be laughing the same way if someone said the same thing about less physically blessed Jason Taylor as a 3-4 LB, and we all know how well that worked.

I wouldn't say Jason Taylor is less physically blessed than Peppers. I'm betting he timed faster in the 40 and had better agility but is smaller than Peppers. This Peppers fetish is getting weird. Yes, he was extremely talented FOR A BIG MAN. That doesn't mean his agility scores tested as well as the upper echelon OLBs.

Peppers' 4.74 40 time is great for a big DE, but it's very pedestrian for an OLB. Hell, Aaron Kampman timed faster than Peppers.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=56212&draftyear=2002&genpos=DE

Dude, who cares how fast someone runs in a straight line? He was a very successful basketball player. There is ZERO doubt in my mind that he is the perfect OLB in a 3-4.

[Lurker64]

Dude, who cares how fast someone runs in a straight line? He was a very successful basketball player. There is ZERO doubt in my mind that he is the perfect OLB in a 3-4.

Most of the NFL players with a significant basketball background play at Tight End, can you think of any that play at linebacker? I can't, but I'm curious.

When Peppers was a standout basketball player, was he a standout defender or was he mostly notable on offense on the court?

[Partial]

Dude, who cares how fast someone runs in a straight line? He was a very successful basketball player. There is ZERO doubt in my mind that he is the perfect OLB in a 3-4.

Most of the NFL players with a significant basketball background play at Tight End, can you think of any that play at linebacker?

What does that matter? Clearly, to be a successful bball player you have to be athletic in space and have quick feet and loose enough hips. I'm very confident that he can transition to just about any position.

Adalius Thomas has lined up at OLB, ILB, DB, S, and DE when he was on the Ravens before tranisitoning to New England. He and Peppers are similiar athletes in my opinion, and Peppers is blessed with much better length and longer limbs.

Peppers has basically had all the responsibility of a 3-4 OLB in NC. He drops into coverage a lot. Easily as much as a Demarcus Ware.

[chain_gang]

I think that Simeon Rice would be laughing the same way if someone said the same thing about less physically blessed Jason Taylor as a 3-4 LB, and we all know how well that worked.

I wouldn't say Jason Taylor is less physically blessed than Peppers. I'm betting he timed faster in the 40 and had better agility but is smaller than Peppers. This Peppers fetish is getting weird. Yes, he was extremely talented FOR A BIG MAN. That doesn't mean his agility scores tested as well as the upper echelon OLBs.

Peppers' 4.74 40 time is great for a big DE, but it's very pedestrian for an OLB. Hell, Aaron Kampman timed faster than Peppers.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=56212&draftyear=2002&genpos=DE



While his 40 time is what some may look at I'd rather see the Shuttle times, that would be a lot better indicator of if he can play OLB. We know he can rush the passer, there is no question about that.

I did a little research and here's a good article before he came out in the draft.

Here's the link, http://archive.profootballweekly.com/content/archives2001/draft_2001/prospects_peppers_022202.asp



It does seem that they felt he could be successful in a 4-3 or a 3-4 that was how athletically gifted he was. The question is can he do it now that he's getting a little older. But that's for our scouting department and coaches to decide.

And here's a couple comments about him.(Keep in mind this is from 2002)

"I don’t know if he’s as fast as Jevon is as far as flat out being a 4.4-guy," an NFL scout said. "But he’s definitely going to be a freak because he’s got cover skills as a defensive end. He can drop back in that zone area. He has those long arms, and he has those soft hands from playing basketball. So he’s going to be another type of guy that is going to create different problems for offenses because his defensive coordinator is probably going to be able to use him in a variety of ways. You could stand him up and bring him off the edge or you could drop him as a linebacker because he is that good of an athlete. He is a very fluid athlete. He’s going to come off the edge and be real effective.

"He’s a pretty powerful guy, and he can run. He can be one of those guys that get an interception and go the opposite way with it or pick up a fumble like Urlacher did (last season). He (Peppers) is going to be going down the sideline and not too many guys are going to be able to catch him. There is a premium on pass rushers, so those types of guys are going to come off the board fast. When you’re building your team, you can’t have enough guys that you can pay to come off the edge."

North Carolina defensive coordinator Jon Tenuta says Peppers’ natural ability was evident in his interception against FSU. Peppers was responsible for the hook zone in 3-coverage. He lined up against a four wide-receiver set, dropped to his zone in the middle and saw a crossing pattern coming his way. He stepped in front of the crossing receiver, made a leaping catch and started for the endzone. Peppers, who rushed for 3,501 yards and 46 touchdowns as a tailback in high school and also competed four years in the triple jump and relays, tried to hurdle a Florida State tackler and nearly did before getting tripped short of the endzone.

[Partial]

Not only that, but a guy like Peppers is a lot like Urlacher.. they could line him up all over the place and he'd be successful. If our defense is going to be predicated on pressure, stunts, and all around confusing of the opposition, JP is the perfect defender as he's so versatile.

Honestly, I would be surprised to see him drop back into the deep zone over the middle like the Bears do with Urlacher. He's just as good of an athlete and I think he'd have great success. You can line him up at any position besides NT, and even there I wouldn't bet against him.

And Harvey, don't be that guy stating Kampman ran faster than him. Kamp is pretty quick imo, but he didn't get invited to the combine, so we can't trust the scores. Peppers was clocked at NC running a 4.4. Was Kampman ever clocked running a 4.4 at Iowa? I highly doubt it. Regardless.. most of the 4.4 guys are no where near as fast with pads on. Peppers can run with just about anybody in pads imo, especially where body contact is allowed. C'mon, Peppers had a Mario Williams/Mike Mamula esque combine if not better, and he has shown what he is capable of on the field for years. He will probably be a hall of famer someday.

Peppers was a key member of NCs final four bball team, he was a state champion sprinter and triple jumper in high school, and he has been one of the best all-around players in the NFL for sometime. I can't believe you guys are not 110% behind this. Sure, he's big, but big is a GREAT thing if they can still move. Peppers has consistently shown that he can!!

The biggest thing that I like is all the turnovers he forces. When he hits you, he hits you hard and often times knocks the ball out. Our defense would immediately become very, very good with him opposite Kampman rushing the passer. Not only will he provide as good of pass rush as anyone in the NFL, but he will also provide very good run support as he is a titan of a man.


In the 2002 NFL Draft, Peppers was selected by the Carolina Panthers as the second overall pick behind first overall pick, quarterback David Carr. Peppers ran a 4.68 40 yard dash at 290 pounds and completed 22 bench press reps at his pro day. Peppers made an immediate impact and was named The NFL Defensive Rookie of the Year by the Associated Press. During his rookie season, Peppers tallied 36 tackles, 12 sacks, 1 interception, and 5 forced fumbles. On October 13, 2002, Peppers became only the third player in NFL history to amass three sacks and an interception in the same game. With four games remaining in the season, Peppers was suspended for violating the NFL's substance abuse policy for taking a banned dietary supplement.

In 2003, during the Panthers' Super Bowl run, he had 46 tackles, 7 sacks, and 3 forced fumbles. The next year, Peppers was selected to his first ever Pro Bowl with 65 tackles, 11 sacks, 2 interceptions, 4 forced fumbles, and two touchdowns. On October 15, 2006, Peppers became the Panthers' all-time sacks leader. [3]

Julius Peppers is known as one of the most athletic and versatile players in the NFL. In his career, Peppers has 8 blocked kicks (extra points and field goal attempts). Peppers has had double-digit sacks in all but 2 seasons. In 2008, Julius Peppers was voted to the 2009 Pro Bowl.[4]"

Can anyone find his shuttle numbers from the combine? I'm sure they're freakishly good but I cannot find any articles listing them.

[rbaloha1]

While many of the posts showcase Peppers amazing athletic ability imo its too much money to speculate.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Peppers was clocked at NC running a 4.4. Was Kampman ever clocked running a 4.4 at Iowa?

Who knows? Those I don't trust. The combine is the only true measuring stick. It's a fast surface, but not the fastest. A lot of guys will run a bit better at their campus workout. If Peppers best time at the combine was 4.68, then he never sniffed 4.4, and that's all just pre-draft hoopla. Kampman was timed at his workouts by professional scouts. It seems he's ever bit as fast and agile as Woodley. I'll give Peppers a slight edge in 40 time--because I believe some scouts timed him in the HIGH 4.5s at his campus workout.

[Partial]

Peppers was clocked at NC running a 4.4. Was Kampman ever clocked running a 4.4 at Iowa?

Who knows? Those I don't trust. The combine is the only true measuring stick. It's a fast surface, but not the fastest. A lot of guys will run a bit better at their campus workout. If Peppers best time at the combine was 4.68, then he never sniffed 4.4, and that's all just pre-draft hoopla. Kampman was timed at his workouts by professional scouts. It seems he's ever bit as fast and agile as Woodley. I'll give Peppers a slight edge in 40 time--because I believe some scouts timed him in the HIGH 4.5s at his campus workout.

I think Kampman will be great as a 3-4 OLB. Their coverage responsibilities are pretty limited, I mean, how often in the playoffs did we see Suggs drop back into coverage? Not very often. Far more often than not he was an edge rusher. Same can be said for Ware.

BTW, I know he didn't run a 4.4, but in the article linked, it does say he was clocked on campus in the 4.4's and that he'd routinely outrun the DBs and receivers, and would do the drills with the skill players and often come out ahead. Realistically, there is no way he's a 4.4 guy, though, and we all know that. Maybe in his high school sprinting days, but I doubt it. Just saying how inaccurate the campus workouts can be with that statement.

I really like JP. I think his addition alone would move them from below average to top 10.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I really like JP.

Thanks for clearing that up. Can you stop with the tank-esque infatuation though? We aren't going to get Peppers. You can book that. There are some solid players available that are good fits for the 3-4 though. I actually hoping Thompson will look at the other Panthers major FA, if he becomes available. Jordan Gross would look really good at OT for us.

[Partial]

I really like JP.

Thanks for clearing that up. Can you stop with the tank-esque infatuation though? We aren't going to get Peppers. You can book that. There are some solid players available that are good fits for the 3-4 though. I actually hoping Thompson will look at the other Panthers major FA, if he becomes available. Jordan Gross would look really good at OT for us.

Tank like obsession? Hardly. Next time I see you get a boner for a player I'll be sure to point it out :lol: You've mentioned your man love of Chris Canty more than your fair share of times in the past couple of weeks.

With that said, I don't think we need to overpay for a Jordan Gross. Clifton has another year left where I think he'll do just fine. If Tauscher doesn't recover well this year, they can play Colledge at left tackle. I do think they should spend a higher pick on an tackle to develop to step in next year, though.

I think it's pretty ironic and comical that you are telling me we'll never get JP, yet you're talking about how you'd be excited for Jordan Gross, the player the Panthers are rumored to franchise.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think it's pretty ironic and comical that you are telling me we'll never get JP, yet you're talking about how you'd be excited for Jordan Gross, the player the Panthers are rumored to franchise.

There's a difference in mentioning a guy a few times and mentioning him in every other post. Do you even realize how often you've posted that you want the Packers to sign Peppers?

[Partial]

I think it's pretty ironic and comical that you are telling me we'll never get JP, yet you're talking about how you'd be excited for Jordan Gross, the player the Panthers are rumored to franchise.

There's a difference in mentioning a guy a few times and mentioning him in every other post. Do you even realize how often you've posted that you want the Packers to sign Peppers?

In 14 Threads since December 7th. You've mentioned Gross and/or Canty in 6 threads for what its worth.

[HarveyWallbangers]

In 14 Threads since December 7th. You've mentioned Gross and/or Canty in 6 threads for what its worth.

Do you really want to compare? I've probably mentioned those two guys in 6-8 posts combined. I'm guessing you've mentioned Peppers in well over 50 posts.

[steve823]

LOL...I was going to say the same thing...then I scrolled down and you beat me to it. Partial, I agree that Peppers is good and all that crap but chacnes are WE ARENT GETTING HIM. Mentioning it in every post wont help it either lol. I think everyone in the forum..maybe even the country knows you like Peppers o there is no need to repeat it anymore :lol:

[Fritz]

"So maybe you need great line play in any system. Okay. But why then did the Bates system get criticized because it required so much of its defensive linemen?"

In a 3 - 4 you only need to find 3 good DL.

Also, it is easier to find OLBs for the 3-4 than it is to find DEs in the 4-3.

Couple of questions: yes you need fewer, but since we're starting with only two acknowledged defensive line "fits" (Pickett and Jenkins), then don't we need to draft more than if we kept the 4-3?

Second, won't the rotation become even more important on the d-line since they are asked to take on two blockers, at least at the nose?

Is it easier to find a 4-3 end than it is to find a 3-4 defensive end?

[HarveyWallbangers]

Is it easier to find a 4-3 end than it is to find a 3-4 defensive end?

Personally, I don't think so. A really good 4-3 DE needs to stop the run and rush the passer. It's not as important for a 3-4 DE to rush the passer. You don't see all-around DTs or DEs anymore. Most DEs seem to be big, run stuffing types that fit better in the 3-4 (a lot of times these guys are smaller 4-3 DTs) or undersized pass rushers that can be moved out to LB in the 3-4 scheme.

[Farley Face]

Does he envision himself as a strong side LB?

Yes.


Seems DEs in the 3-4 do the grunt work according to this article. Jenkins has already mentioned he has spoke to Corey Williams who moved to a DE in a 3-4 and was not interested in making a similar transition.

He may not be interested, but with the money he's making he'll do it. He's never been one to stir the pot.


Jolly will be in a contract year in '09 I believe, he'll want to do more than make Hawk/Bishop/Whoever look good.

I'm not sure Jolly is good enough for us to worry about. If he can make the transition, playing 3-4 DE isn't all that much different than playing 4-3 DT.


JAnd is Pickett a true nose in this D?

Why not?

I've read he doesn't anchor like a true NT. I know, surprising for a man with his size and strength, but that seems to be more than one scout's opinion of him. Too easily pushed around.

Packer Update:

"Pickett has been one of the team’s better defensive players for the past three seasons, but he’s not the kind of consistent run-stuffer that this scheme requires. “He gets pushed around too much at the point of attack,” said the scout. “The Packers need someone like Haloti Ngata (Baltimore), Casey Hampton (Pittsburgh) or Jamal Williams (San Diego) in the middle. Those players force double-teams on a consistent basis and make it extremely difficult for opponents to run the ball. And once the ground game is under control, guys like Capers can lick their chops and really get after the quarterback.”

[Farley Face]

Does he envision himself as a strong side LB?

Yes.


Seems DEs in the 3-4 do the grunt work according to this article. Jenkins has already mentioned he has spoke to Corey Williams who moved to a DE in a 3-4 and was not interested in making a similar transition.

He may not be interested, but with the money he's making he'll do it. He's never been one to stir the pot.


Jolly will be in a contract year in '09 I believe, he'll want to do more than make Hawk/Bishop/Whoever look good.

I'm not sure Jolly is good enough for us to worry about. If he can make the transition, playing 3-4 DE isn't all that much different than playing 4-3 DT.


JAnd is Pickett a true nose in this D?

Why not?

I've read he doesn't anchor like a true NT. I know, surprising for a man with his size and strength, but that seems to be more than one scout's opinion of him. Too easily pushed around.

Packer Update:

"Pickett has been one of the team’s better defensive players for the past three seasons, but he’s not the kind of consistent run-stuffer that this scheme requires. “He gets pushed around too much at the point of attack,” said the scout. “The Packers need someone like Haloti Ngata (Baltimore), Casey Hampton (Pittsburgh) or Jamal Williams (San Diego) in the middle. Those players force double-teams on a consistent basis and make it extremely difficult for opponents to run the ball. And once the ground game is under control, guys like Capers can lick their chops and really get after the quarterback.”