Justin Harrell

[Patler]

A few things I have come across in the last week:

- He is in Green Bay working out to rehab his back.
- Another surgery has not been ruled out, but the doctors want to try rehab first.
- An unnamed scout said his notes from watching him at TN were that he was "born to play DE in a 3-4".
- Trgovac said he is a "very talented player" if they can get him healthy.
- One of the 3-4 gurus (I've forgotten which one) said Harrell was exactly the type of player you look for in a 3-4 DE.

IF , and it is a huge "IF" they can get both of them healthy, Harrell and Jenkins could be nice fits in the 3-4. Unfortunately, I have a feeling, based on nothing concrete at all, that this back thing will be the end of Harrell's NFL career. I think they are doing everything they can to avoid a third back surgery, which they probably believe will be the end for him. Rehab this off season might be his last shot. Too bad.

[Joemailman]

Yep. I think he'll either be starting at DE, or he'll be joining Jamaal Reynolds in the Packers Draft Pick Hall Of Shame.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

That is why injured players fall in the draft.

[Patler]

Yep. I think he'll either be starting at DE, or he'll be joining Jamaal Reynolds in the Packers Draft Pick Hall Of Shame.

There is no shame in it for Harrell or Reynolds. It does not appear to have been a character flaw, lack of effort, or anything like that for either one. It is not the player's fault where he is drafted, or that he gets injured.

[KYPack]

A few things I have come across in the last week:

- He is in Green Bay working out to rehab his back.
- Another surgery has not been ruled out, but the doctors want to try rehab first.
- An unnamed scout said his notes from watching him at TN were that he was "born to play DE in a 3-4".
- Trgovac said he is a "very talented player" if they can get him healthy.
- One of the 3-4 gurus (I've forgotten which one) said Harrell was exactly the type of player you look for in a 3-4 DE.

IF , and it is a huge "IF" they can get both of them healthy, Harrell and Jenkins could be nice fits in the 3-4. Unfortunately, I have a feeling, based on nothing concrete at all, that this back thing will be the end of Harrell's NFL career. I think they are doing everything they can to avoid a third back surgery, which they probably believe will be the end for him. Rehab this off season might be his last shot. Too bad.

As a long-time back sufferer, I think he's done playing NFL football, too.

Those things ebb and flow, but the movement is always downhill.

A third surgery is curtains. Right now, he's postponing the inevitable.

His first year, I saw him have a brilliant series in Pre-season. He pushed his guy back, controlling him. When the QB went to pass, Harrell threw his guy aside and leaped, tipping the pass. He then caught the ball and scored. It was garbage time their 3's against ours, but you could see the talent and skill. I figured once he got his legs under him and in shape, we had a real star.

It didn't happen then, & don't think it ever will.

[vince]

A few things I have come across in the last week:

- He is in Green Bay working out to rehab his back.
- Another surgery has not been ruled out, but the doctors want to try rehab first.
- An unnamed scout said his notes from watching him at TN were that he was "born to play DE in a 3-4".
- Trgovac said he is a "very talented player" if they can get him healthy.
- One of the 3-4 gurus (I've forgotten which one) said Harrell was exactly the type of player you look for in a 3-4 DE.

IF , and it is a huge "IF" they can get both of them healthy, Harrell and Jenkins could be nice fits in the 3-4. Unfortunately, I have a feeling, based on nothing concrete at all, that this back thing will be the end of Harrell's NFL career. I think they are doing everything they can to avoid a third back surgery, which they probably believe will be the end for him. Rehab this off season might be his last shot. Too bad.
I hope he can drop some weight and make it back. Where'd you come across this info Patler?

[Patler]

I hope he can drop some weight and make it back. Where'd you come across this info Patler?

I don't think weight is a problem for him. They mentioned toward the end of last season that his weight was down about 10 pounds from what they had hoped he could stay at while rehabbing. The trainers commented about how hard and long he worked to do it, and he lost weight in spite of having been very limited in what he could do while rehabbing his back. My recollection is that he had gotten back down to about what he played at in college

Where did I get the information? Bits and pieces found in blogs and a few articles about the defense the past week or so, mostly GBPG and JSO.

[Bossman641]

As always, good research Patler. I'm really pulling for Harrell. I know the odds are stacked against him, but I hope he can somehow get healthy. I think a line of Jenkins-Pickett (or Raji)-Harrell could eat up a ton of blockers.

[vince]

I hope he can drop some weight and make it back. Where'd you come across this info Patler?

I don't think weight is a problem for him. They mentioned toward the end of last season that his weight was down about 10 pounds from what they had hoped he could stay at while rehabbing. The trainers commented about how hard and long he worked to do it, and he lost weight in spite of having been very limited in what he could do while rehabbing his back. My recollection is that he had gotten back down to about what he played at in college

Where did I get the information? Bits and pieces found in blogs and a few articles about the defense the past week or so, mostly GBPG and JSO.
It's good to hear that he's lost weight even while limited in what he can do. I think it might have been you Patler who has pointed out consistently to the bashers who call him lazy that he's always been a hard worker...

I have to believe playing DE at 300 vs. trying to bulk up and stay at 320 as a 4-3 DT would be better for him with his condition.

I hadn't seen any of the reports about how he (if healthy) is perfectly suited for a 3-4 DE. Thanks for those tidbits.

That's a big hole he could fill if he's able to make it back, and a big hole that needs to be filled if he can't.

[red]

i think it would be a giant mistake to try and count on him for anything

if he can somehow contribute in anyway, it would be a bonus right now

[sheepshead]

Yep. I think he'll either be starting at DE, or he'll be joining Jamaal Reynolds in the Packers Draft Pick Hall Of Shame.

There is no shame in it for Harrell or Reynolds. It does not appear to have been a character flaw, lack of effort, or anything like that for either one. It is not the player's fault where he is drafted, or that he gets injured.

I agree, while we are disappointed in a first rounder not playing and collecting a huge pay check and taking cap space. You really cant get mad at him. It's like getting mad at your kid for getting sick.

[Joemailman]

I wasn't knocking Harrell. I was referring to high draft selections that produced little or nothing. I'd put the Mandarich or John Michaels picks in the same category. I'm rooting for Harrell. I think his size and talent are perfect for what the Packers need at DE.

[Harlan Huckleby]

That is why injured players fall in the draft.

I bicep tear is a long way from a back problem.

[Patler]

I wasn't knocking Harrell. I was referring to high draft selections that produced little or nothing. I'd put the Mandarich or John Michaels picks in the same category. I'm rooting for Harrell. I think his size and talent are perfect for what the Packers need at DE.

I guess I read your comment a little wrong. Michels I don't blame for anything either. Simply didn't have the talent they hoped he had, then had some injuries on top of it all.

Mandarich on the other hand, I do blame. Not just that he took steroids in college, lied and cheated on the tests, but by his own admission he became a drug addict while with the Packers, and seemingly didn't really care. Had he simply dropped the steroid use, stayed clean and worked hard, he may have had a decent career. He had a few serviceable years with the Colts after going through all that he did, showing that he had some talent at least. If he had put in that kind of effort with the Packers years earlier, he might have had a decent career. Instead, he mostly threw it all away.

[Harlan Huckleby]

If JH can be a backup at DE, that'll be fine.

[wist43]

1st round back ups... that pick sure worked out :)

[Packnut]

I hope he can drop some weight and make it back. Where'd you come across this info Patler?

I don't think weight is a problem for him. They mentioned toward the end of last season that his weight was down about 10 pounds from what they had hoped he could stay at while rehabbing. The trainers commented about how hard and long he worked to do it, and he lost weight in spite of having been very limited in what he could do while rehabbing his back. My recollection is that he had gotten back down to about what he played at in college

Where did I get the information? Bits and pieces found in blogs and a few articles about the defense the past week or so, mostly GBPG and JSO.
It's good to hear that he's lost weight even while limited in what he can do. I think it might have been you Patler who has pointed out consistently to the bashers who call him lazy that he's always been a hard worker...

I have to believe playing DE at 300 vs. trying to bulk up and stay at 320 as a 4-3 DT would be better for him with his condition.

I hadn't seen any of the reports about how he (if healthy) is perfectly suited for a 3-4 DE. Thanks for those tidbits.

That's a big hole he could fill if he's able to make it back, and a big hole that needs to be filled if he can't.

After his rookie season, Harrell admitted to going back home and stuffing himself with his mother's cooking. He came back to GB way over-weight and THAT is when he injured his back for the first time. I don't know how you missed the whole thing as it was well documentated in the press. There were also articles about his work habits in his rookie year being "suspect". So the "bashers" as you call them have some facts to back up the "lazy" aspect while we have "your opinion" about how hard he works. :roll:

[Patler]

I hope he can drop some weight and make it back. Where'd you come across this info Patler?

I don't think weight is a problem for him. They mentioned toward the end of last season that his weight was down about 10 pounds from what they had hoped he could stay at while rehabbing. The trainers commented about how hard and long he worked to do it, and he lost weight in spite of having been very limited in what he could do while rehabbing his back. My recollection is that he had gotten back down to about what he played at in college

Where did I get the information? Bits and pieces found in blogs and a few articles about the defense the past week or so, mostly GBPG and JSO.
It's good to hear that he's lost weight even while limited in what he can do. I think it might have been you Patler who has pointed out consistently to the bashers who call him lazy that he's always been a hard worker...

I have to believe playing DE at 300 vs. trying to bulk up and stay at 320 as a 4-3 DT would be better for him with his condition.

I hadn't seen any of the reports about how he (if healthy) is perfectly suited for a 3-4 DE. Thanks for those tidbits.

That's a big hole he could fill if he's able to make it back, and a big hole that needs to be filled if he can't.

After his rookie season, Harrell admitted to going back home and stuffing himself with his mother's cooking. He came back to GB way over-weight and THAT is when he injured his back for the first time. I don't know how you missed the whole thing as it was well documentated in the press. There were also articles about his work habits in his rookie year being "suspect". So the "bashers" as you call them have some facts to back up the "lazy" aspect while we have "your opinion" about how hard he works. :roll:

I'm not going to rehash this whole thing, other than to say:
-he was gone from GB about 6 weeks, how bad could it have been?
-it subsequently came out that he was about 8-10 lbs overweight in MARCH.
-320 pounders "ballooning" to 330 is barely a drop in the bucket.
-its doubtful the extra 10 pounds had anything to do with a weightlifting injury
-since his rookie TC, there have been plenty of comments about how hard he does work, including losing much more weight than they thought he could while doing nothing more strenuous than riding a stationary bike. One of the staff said it was because he spent hours and hours each day at it, much more than they asked him to do.

[Harlan Huckleby]

1st round back ups... that pick sure worked out :)

I know it sucks, but from where we are sitting now, a good rotation guy would be welcome.

[Fritz]

A back injury is serious business, for sure. I am bummed that it appears that this could be a recurring (and therefore career ending) injury.

I'm rooting for the guy. He seems nice enough, and though none of us truly knows his work habits, he does seem to care about more than his paycheck and his next dinner.

[Lurker64]

1st round back ups... that pick sure worked out :)

It didn't, but Thompson has historically gotten a lot of flak for always taking the safe pick and never taking a risk on a guy who has the potential to be a real difference maker. In the Harrell pick, Thompson definitely took a chance on a guy who had a shot at being great, and it just hasn't worked out for him.

That's the thing about the draft, sometimes guys just don't work out for you because nobody can see the future. If GMs could see the future, there would be no busts.

[mission]

I definitely agree that we can't count on him for anything from a personnel standpoint. I don't think it can/should affect anything we do in FA/draft ... we made this mistake on the DL last year. if he happens to come through and have a productive season then great, and happy for the kid. But the sliver of swiss in me would never let me bet even a dollar that he's healthy for most of next year.

[bobblehead]

1st round back ups... that pick sure worked out :)

burger kings nation wide are littered with first round picks, get used to it. Picks bust, if you lament every one of them you will never see the whole picture.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

That is why injured players fall in the draft.

I bicep tear is a long way from a back problem.

I understand that, but I wouldn’t draft a guy unless he has proven he can stay healthy over a long period of time. If I remember correctly Harrell only completed one healthy year during his college career. To be successful in the NFL you have prove that you have talent and can stay healthy. Yes the guy has talent, but for me to take you in the first round you have to be the total package. And picking at 16 there were a lot of other players who had equal talent without the injury history.

[TheCheese]

That is why injured players fall in the draft.

I bicep tear is a long way from a back problem.

I understand that, but I wouldn’t draft a guy unless he has proven he can stay healthy over a long period of time. If I remember correctly Harrell only completed one healthy year during his college career. To be successful in the NFL you have prove that you have talent and can stay healthy. Yes the guy has talent, but for me to take you in the first round you have to be the total package. And picking at 16 there were a lot of other players who had equal talent without the injury history.

Adrian Peterson.

[cheesner]

That is why injured players fall in the draft.

I bicep tear is a long way from a back problem.

I understand that, but I wouldn’t draft a guy unless he has proven he can stay healthy over a long period of time. If I remember correctly Harrell only completed one healthy year during his college career. To be successful in the NFL you have prove that you have talent and can stay healthy. Yes the guy has talent, but for me to take you in the first round you have to be the total package. And picking at 16 there were a lot of other players who had equal talent without the injury history.

Adrian Peterson.Some of the best counter arguments are very short.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

That is why injured players fall in the draft.

I bicep tear is a long way from a back problem.

I understand that, but I wouldn’t draft a guy unless he has proven he can stay healthy over a long period of time. If I remember correctly Harrell only completed one healthy year during his college career. To be successful in the NFL you have prove that you have talent and can stay healthy. Yes the guy has talent, but for me to take you in the first round you have to be the total package. And picking at 16 there were a lot of other players who had equal talent without the injury history.

Adrian Peterson.

Good for Peterson, obviously ever case is different. But in general that is how I would operate as a GM. I would try to pick the player with the most talent and the highest possible chance at success in the NFL. You may not agree with that, but that is how I would approach it.

[sharpe1027]

That is why injured players fall in the draft.

I bicep tear is a long way from a back problem.

I understand that, but I wouldn’t draft a guy unless he has proven he can stay healthy over a long period of time. If I remember correctly Harrell only completed one healthy year during his college career. To be successful in the NFL you have prove that you have talent and can stay healthy. Yes the guy has talent, but for me to take you in the first round you have to be the total package. And picking at 16 there were a lot of other players who had equal talent without the injury history.

Brett Favre had injury questions stemming from his car accident and was later diagnosed with avascular necrosis, which ended Bo Jackson's career.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Is getting hurt in a car accident the same as consistently getting hurt on the playing field? I don't think it’s the same. Am thinking more of a player like Mike Brown.

[Bossman641]

Is getting hurt in a car accident the same as consistently getting hurt on the playing field? I don't think it’s the same. Am thinking more of a player like Mike Brown.

I understand Brown has been chronically injured in the NFL for the past few years, but he was the exact opposite in college.


Brown started 38 straight games for the Huskers, counting the last two bowl games and served as a team captain in 1999.

He also played in 11 games as a freshmen but didn't start.

[sharpe1027]

I wasn't just talking about Favre's car accident. Supposedly, the Packer's team doctors told Wolf to cancel the trade because Favre failed his physical. The doctors thought he was a serious injury risk for injuring his hip (same problem as Bo Jackson).

I would call that way more definitive evidence of injury problems than in the case of Harrell. Harrell passed all physicals and was expected to make a full recovery from his injuries, which he did. The injuries were unrelated so drawing conclusions about his back injuries from a torn bicep and broken ankle is nothing but 20/20 hindsight complaining.

I disagree with your philosophy and I think that it is a good thing that Wolf didn't follow your philosophy.

[BooHoo]

As a fan it is difficult to see a First Round pick not contribute to the team. Who could we have picked instead that would have started?

[Merlin]

A few things I have come across in the last week:

- He is in Green Bay working out to rehab his back.
- Another surgery has not been ruled out, but the doctors want to try rehab first.
- An unnamed scout said his notes from watching him at TN were that he was "born to play DE in a 3-4".
- Trgovac said he is a "very talented player" if they can get him healthy.
- One of the 3-4 gurus (I've forgotten which one) said Harrell was exactly the type of player you look for in a 3-4 DE.

IF , and it is a huge "IF" they can get both of them healthy, Harrell and Jenkins could be nice fits in the 3-4. Unfortunately, I have a feeling, based on nothing concrete at all, that this back thing will be the end of Harrell's NFL career. I think they are doing everything they can to avoid a third back surgery, which they probably believe will be the end for him. Rehab this off season might be his last shot. Too bad.

I hope this is turns out to be the case because at this point, we can't afford anymore DL downtime. And if it does, you have to ask yourself what we were doing taking an injured player best suited for the 3-4 defense when we were running a 4-3 defense. Jenkins being healthy isn't a foregone conclusion either. I think no matter who lines up, it will take time to transition to the 3-4 and we really won't know who is best suited for this transition until we see them play.

[Waldo]

A few things I have come across in the last week:

- He is in Green Bay working out to rehab his back.
- Another surgery has not been ruled out, but the doctors want to try rehab first.
- An unnamed scout said his notes from watching him at TN were that he was "born to play DE in a 3-4".
- Trgovac said he is a "very talented player" if they can get him healthy.
- One of the 3-4 gurus (I've forgotten which one) said Harrell was exactly the type of player you look for in a 3-4 DE.

IF , and it is a huge "IF" they can get both of them healthy, Harrell and Jenkins could be nice fits in the 3-4. Unfortunately, I have a feeling, based on nothing concrete at all, that this back thing will be the end of Harrell's NFL career. I think they are doing everything they can to avoid a third back surgery, which they probably believe will be the end for him. Rehab this off season might be his last shot. Too bad.

I hope this is turns out to be the case because at this point, we can't afford anymore DL downtime. And if it does, you have to ask yourself what we were doing taking an injured player best suited for the 3-4 defense when we were running a 4-3 defense. Jenkins being healthy isn't a foregone conclusion either. I think no matter who lines up, it will take time to transition to the 3-4 and we really won't know who is best suited for this transition until we see them play.

Most players can play in both the 3-4 and 4-3 just fine. The point of defensive football is to block guys and tackle guys. Instinctive players are instinctive in all systems. Great athletes are great athletes in all systems. Good football players are good football players in all systems. It is very rare that this doesn't hold true for (name another good player other than Vilma that wasn't a "fit" for the 3-4). The biggest problem switching from one system to another is not that your players won't work, it is that you have a roster allotment of X number of players for this position and Y number of players for that position. Those #'s are now wrong. We need more 4-3 UT's and NT's and less 4-3 LB's.

Justin runs a faster 10 yd split, can jump higher (more explosive), bench more, and move side to side better than Kevin Williams. He is a UT with NT power, not a NT. He has a UT body and UT athleticism. He is an ideal 3-4 DE.

[SnakeLH2006]

This thread is getting out of hand.

Could Harrell be a good DE in a 3-4. Yes.

Is Harrell healthy. No.

Does Harrell have a track record of being healthy. No.

Will Harrell likely contribute as a starting DE in 3-4 in 2009. Likely not.

Can we depend on him in 2009. No.

Should we give Cole/Montgomery millions as UFA's because they "were" Packers. No.

Should we look at plausible options in FA and the draft to upgrade DE regardless? Yes.

[Partial]

Lets stop referring to people as under and over tackles. You guys are talking out of your asses.

Harrell was going to be the run stuffer, not the three technique tackle.

Comparing him to Kevin Williams is a joke. Harrell isn't 1/20th of the player.

[Patler]

you have to ask yourself what we were doing taking an injured player best suited for the 3-4 defense when we were running a 4-3 defense.

I guess for the same reason that Cleveland was willing to pay big money to Cory Williams to play DE in a 3-4 after he was a decent player at tackle in a 4-3 for the Packers.

[Patler]

Lets stop referring to people as under and over tackles. You guys are talking out of your asses.

Harrell was going to be the run stuffer, not the three technique tackle.


If that were the case, then why shortly after he was drafted was he listed as the starter at tackle next to Pickett? If you recall, that was a point of contention for Williams, with Harrell being designated the starter going into TC his rookie year.

[Bretsky]

Lets stop referring to people as under and over tackles. You guys are talking out of your asses.

Harrell was going to be the run stuffer, not the three technique tackle.


If that were the case, then why shortly after he was drafted was he listed as the starter at tackle next to Pickett? If you recall, that was a point of contention for Williams, with Harrell being designated the starter going into TC his rookie year.


a pretty sad memory if I recall; surely he did not earn it

From the little we've seen at this point I too agree he's a run stuffer and not a pass rushing threat

[Partial]

Lets stop referring to people as under and over tackles. You guys are talking out of your asses.

Harrell was going to be the run stuffer, not the three technique tackle.


If that were the case, then why shortly after he was drafted was he listed as the starter at tackle next to Pickett? If you recall, that was a point of contention for Williams, with Harrell being designated the starter going into TC his rookie year.

Corey Williams was a designated pass rusher type of guy, then. On first and second down the tackles responsibilies were to stop the run, not get after the QB.

[Patler]

Corey Williams was a designated pass rusher type of guy, then. On first and second down the tackles responsibilies were to stop the run, not get after the QB.

Nice try, but wrong. Williams was the returning starter from 2006, having started 11 of their 16 games and the last 8 in a row. That is what had him upset. He said he had earned the starting spot the previous year, and then it was given to Harrell without a practice having been run.

[Waldo]

Lets stop referring to people as under and over tackles. You guys are talking out of your asses.

Harrell was going to be the run stuffer, not the three technique tackle.


If that were the case, then why shortly after he was drafted was he listed as the starter at tackle next to Pickett? If you recall, that was a point of contention for Williams, with Harrell being designated the starter going into TC his rookie year.

His target weight also is 310-315. That is not NT weight.

[Partial]

Corey Williams was a designated pass rusher type of guy, then. On first and second down the tackles responsibilies were to stop the run, not get after the QB.

Nice try, but wrong. Williams was the returning starter from 2006, having started 11 of their 16 games and the last 8 in a row. That is what had him upset. He said he had earned the starting spot the previous year, and then it was given to Harrell without a practice having been run.

Yeah, I get that, but Harrell was touted as being the superior run stuffer, so he got the nod based on the tackles primary objective. Williams was much better at getting after the passer and keeping him fresh for third down was a goal at that point.

[Waldo]

Corey Williams was a designated pass rusher type of guy, then. On first and second down the tackles responsibilies were to stop the run, not get after the QB.

Nice try, but wrong. Williams was the returning starter from 2006, having started 11 of their 16 games and the last 8 in a row. That is what had him upset. He said he had earned the starting spot the previous year, and then it was given to Harrell without a practice having been run.

Yeah, I get that, but Harrell was touted as being the superior run stuffer, so he got the nod based on the tackles primary objective. Williams was much better at getting after the passer and keeping him fresh for third down was a goal at that point.

Keeping him off the field in all but situational play was a goal at that point. Is Mn looking to get a run stuffer to rotate with Kevin so they can keep him fresh for rushing the passer? No. Corey was a big liability against the run.

[Waldo]

Lets stop referring to people as under and over tackles. You guys are talking out of your asses.

Harrell was going to be the run stuffer, not the three technique tackle.

Comparing him to Kevin Williams is a joke. Harrell isn't 1/20th of the player.

That is according to? The JS, the GBPG? Those guys don't even know football basics. Harrell has never lined up anywhere other than UT. He has however done presnap in-stance shifts into the 1 tech slot to act as Cole deodorant.

Combine info:
Height: Williams 6'4.7", Harrell 6'4.3"
Weight: Williams 304, Harrell 300 <- Virtually identical height/weight
Arm Length: Williams 34.5", Harrell 33.25" <- Advantage Williams
40 yd dash: Williams 4.81, Harrell 5.04 <- Advantage Williams
10 yd split: Williams 1.68, Harrell 1.67 <- Advantage Harrell (slight)
Vertical jump: Williams 30", Harrell 30.5" <- Advantage Harrell (slight)
Broad jump: Williams 9.33', Harrell 9.0' <- Advantage Williams (slight)
Short shuttle: Williams 5.04, Harrell 4.79 <- Advantage Harrell
3 cone: Williams 7.66, Harrell 7.63 <- Advantage Harrell (slight)
Bench: Williams 23, Harrell 24 <- Advantage Harrell (he put up 31 at his pro day, and was still recovering from his bicep tear).

Justin's agility is as good as Kevin, he is faster side to side, they both have about equal explosion, Kevin has better long speed but their short speed is equal, Justin is a lot stronger than Kevin. Kevin's draft stock was as high as it was based off of his measurables. Justin's are every bit as good, if not better. TT took a chance on a stud athlete. Justin has UT measurables, not NT measurables.

[wist43]

If you've got Harrell starting anywhere along your DL, you've got major problems...

He has the look of a guy who will be out of the league after only a few years... he's a bust.

[Waldo]

If you've got Harrell starting anywhere along your DL, you've got major problems...

He has the look of a guy who will be out of the league after only a few years... he's a bust.

He should have been starting this year when he was healthy, and probably would have if Jolly didn't have a fluke good game against Mn. Harrell was consistently better per snap than Jolly and Cole. At times Jolly and Cole looked downright awful. Harrell never looked bad.

The only time Justin ever looked bad on the field was early his rookie year. Down the stretch he looked quite good.

In '07 Justin led the DL in tackles per snap.
In '08 Justin was #3 on the DL (#2 among DT's (Pickett)) in tackles per snap and #1 on the team in TFL's per snap.

[run pMc]

I'd like to see him healthy in camp before making any assessment of whether he's a bust or not. He's been hurt too much to really say, and his injury history makes it easy to write him off. The point about Adrian Peterson and his injury history is well made -- IMO he would have been drafted top 5 (if not Top 3) had there not been questions about his injuries and running style. Give MN credit for taking a big risk on the guy, especially when they already had Chester Taylor and a nonexistent passing game. He's their most dangerous and productive player.

Back to Harrell.

If the kid can't get/stay healthy, then I think he's probably run out of chances and chalk it up to bad luck (think Mark D'Onofrio, T.Murphy, etc.). Given how people complain about TT being conservative, it's hypocritical to fault TT for taking a gamble. Virtually every draft pick is a gamble.

If he can get healthy and stay that way, and his measurables are as good as waldo cites, then it becomes a question of whether he can play for Capers. I don't expect an Adrian Peterson-like impact from Harrell, especially if he's a Capers DE, but like everyone else I want to see if he's any good. Until that's determined, I'm staying on the fence. I just haven't seen enough to really say he's either a starter or a bust.

All this does make good watercooler talk.

[Waldo]

I'd like to see him healthy in camp before making any assessment of whether he's a bust or not. He's been hurt too much to really say, and his injury history makes it easy to write him off. The point about Adrian Peterson and his injury history is well made -- IMO he would have been drafted top 5 (if not Top 3) had there not been questions about his injuries and running style. Give MN credit for taking a big risk on the guy, especially when they already had Chester Taylor and a nonexistent passing game. He's their most dangerous and productive player.

Back to Harrell.

If the kid can't get/stay healthy, then I think he's probably run out of chances and chalk it up to bad luck (think Mark D'Onofrio, T.Murphy, etc.). Given how people complain about TT being conservative, it's hypocritical to fault TT for taking a gamble. Virtually every draft pick is a gamble.

If he can get healthy and stay that way, and his measurables are as good as waldo cites, then it becomes a question of whether he can play for Capers. I don't expect an Adrian Peterson-like impact from Harrell, especially if he's a Capers DE, but like everyone else I want to see if he's any good. Until that's determined, I'm staying on the fence. I just haven't seen enough to really say he's either a starter or a bust.

All this does make good watercooler talk.

K Williams' Measurables (http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=59723&draftyear=2003&genpos=DE)
J Harrell's Measurables (http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=17456&draftyear=2007&genpos=DT)

I'm not making stuff up. When various people said that he would have been a top 10 pick if it weren't for his bicep tear, they weren't full of crap. He has top 10 measurables, only a handful of DT's this decade have had better measurables.

[KYPack]

[quote=Partial]Lets stop referring to people as under and over tackles. You guys are talking out of your asses.

Harrell was going to be the run stuffer, not the three technique tackle.


A 3 technique tackle is the run stuffer. In the Sanders defense, both tackles played 3 tech 99% of the time.

Harrell was a helluva a prospect. In any evaluation of him presently, those two back surgeries with consideration for a 3rd have to come into play. The only place for him is end in a 3-4. Those guys play a 4 technique if anybodies keeping score.

I hope he makes it, but I seriously doubt he will.

[Waldo]

[quote=Partial]Lets stop referring to people as under and over tackles. You guys are talking out of your asses.

Harrell was going to be the run stuffer, not the three technique tackle.


A 3 technique tackle is the run stuffer. In the Sanders defense, both tackles played 3 tech 99% of the time.

Harrell was a helluva a prospect. In any evaluation of him presently, those two back surgeries with consideration for a 3rd have to come into play. The only place for him is end in a 3-4. Those guys play a 4 technique if anybodies keeping score.

I hope he makes it, but I seriously doubt he will.

Pickett lined up at 1 tech (in the A gap) 95%+ of the time. They occasionally made a line shift, but that was usually done when Cole/Harrell were on the field and not when Pickett was.

[rbaloha1]

Should JH overcome injuries the guy has a chance to be really good in the scheme.

JH reminds of Issac Sapoaga from the 49ers which translates to a 3-4 end able to tie up blockers.

IMO this staff will be able to maximize JH's potential.

[run pMc]

I'm not making stuff up.
Sorry, I wasn't implying you were. BTW, thanks for the links...interesting stuff. I've read numerous times that he would have been a top 5/top10 pick without the injury. I'd be thrilled if Harrell played up to his potential (and stayed healthy).

[Partial]

Lets stop referring to people as under and over tackles. You guys are talking out of your asses.

Harrell was going to be the run stuffer, not the three technique tackle.

Comparing him to Kevin Williams is a joke. Harrell isn't 1/20th of the player.

That is according to? The JS, the GBPG? Those guys don't even know football basics. Harrell has never lined up anywhere other than UT. He has however done presnap in-stance shifts into the 1 tech slot to act as Cole deodorant.

Combine info:
Height: Williams 6'4.7", Harrell 6'4.3"
Weight: Williams 304, Harrell 300 <- Virtually identical height/weight
Arm Length: Williams 34.5", Harrell 33.25" <- Advantage Williams
40 yd dash: Williams 4.81, Harrell 5.04 <- Advantage Williams
10 yd split: Williams 1.68, Harrell 1.67 <- Advantage Harrell (slight)
Vertical jump: Williams 30", Harrell 30.5" <- Advantage Harrell (slight)
Broad jump: Williams 9.33', Harrell 9.0' <- Advantage Williams (slight)
Short shuttle: Williams 5.04, Harrell 4.79 <- Advantage Harrell
3 cone: Williams 7.66, Harrell 7.63 <- Advantage Harrell (slight)
Bench: Williams 23, Harrell 24 <- Advantage Harrell (he put up 31 at his pro day, and was still recovering from his bicep tear).

Justin's agility is as good as Kevin, he is faster side to side, they both have about equal explosion, Kevin has better long speed but their short speed is equal, Justin is a lot stronger than Kevin. Kevin's draft stock was as high as it was based off of his measurables. Justin's are every bit as good, if not better. TT took a chance on a stud athlete. Justin has UT measurables, not NT measurables.

OH OK guy :lol: You keep living on those combine numbers. Significantly stronger? He did one more rep at the combine. I'd bet the farm that KWill lifts more now.

I don't give a shit how they tested. I care that Williams is a premiere player, and Harell, even when healthy, hasn't been able to get on the field consistently, and even when he has, he certainly didn't perform.

[Waldo]

Lets stop referring to people as under and over tackles. You guys are talking out of your asses.

Harrell was going to be the run stuffer, not the three technique tackle.

Comparing him to Kevin Williams is a joke. Harrell isn't 1/20th of the player.

That is according to? The JS, the GBPG? Those guys don't even know football basics. Harrell has never lined up anywhere other than UT. He has however done presnap in-stance shifts into the 1 tech slot to act as Cole deodorant.

Combine info:
Height: Williams 6'4.7", Harrell 6'4.3"
Weight: Williams 304, Harrell 300 <- Virtually identical height/weight
Arm Length: Williams 34.5", Harrell 33.25" <- Advantage Williams
40 yd dash: Williams 4.81, Harrell 5.04 <- Advantage Williams
10 yd split: Williams 1.68, Harrell 1.67 <- Advantage Harrell (slight)
Vertical jump: Williams 30", Harrell 30.5" <- Advantage Harrell (slight)
Broad jump: Williams 9.33', Harrell 9.0' <- Advantage Williams (slight)
Short shuttle: Williams 5.04, Harrell 4.79 <- Advantage Harrell
3 cone: Williams 7.66, Harrell 7.63 <- Advantage Harrell (slight)
Bench: Williams 23, Harrell 24 <- Advantage Harrell (he put up 31 at his pro day, and was still recovering from his bicep tear).

Justin's agility is as good as Kevin, he is faster side to side, they both have about equal explosion, Kevin has better long speed but their short speed is equal, Justin is a lot stronger than Kevin. Kevin's draft stock was as high as it was based off of his measurables. Justin's are every bit as good, if not better. TT took a chance on a stud athlete. Justin has UT measurables, not NT measurables.

OH OK guy :lol: You keep living on those combine numbers. Significantly stronger? He did one more rep at the combine. I'd bet the farm that KWill lifts more now.

I don't give a shit how they tested. I care that Williams is a premiere player, and Harell, even when healthy, hasn't been able to get on the field consistently, and even when he has, he certainly didn't perform.

Harrell was still recovering from his torn bicep during training camp. That surely had an effect on his bench numbers. At his pro day a month later, Justin did 31 reps. You're the one claiming that he was drafted to be a run stopper. Prove it. I gave an example of a good pass rushing DT that he was almost physically identical to on draft day. Run stuffers aren't first round picks.

You certainly can't tell the difference between good play and bad play by a DT if you claim he didn't perform on the field. Just because that is what they write in the GBPG and JS, doesn't make it true.

How many times has a RB successfully gotten past a gap next to Justin in the last season and a half? He's played 300 or so snaps, about 225 in the last season and a half. I would wager a decent chunk of change that a RB hasn't gotten past the gap on either side of him more than 10 times in those 225 snaps.

[bobblehead]

NOw I am unimpressed. As a 24 year old weighing 190lbs I put 225 up 23 times in the only time I ever even tried it....these guys are huge fucking pussies.

[Waldo]

NOw I am unimpressed. As a 24 year old weighing 190lbs I put 225 up 23 times in the only time I ever even tried it....these guys are huge fucking pussies.

Do you have 34" long arms (most guys don't have 34" legs)?

There is a cubic relationship between arm length and bench reps/pectoral strength.

A longer arm, even a small amount, has a significant effect on the bench press exercise.

[Fritz]

First of all, I just wanna say that I would not want to have both Waldo and Patler up my butt on any issue. Partial, you ain't gonna be able to get by just on "truthiness" with those two around.

Second, I agree with KY that two back surgeries and maybe a third is not a good sign for Harrell's future. That seems more than ominous to me.

Third, since Gullickson has been fired, wouldn't it be best to stop blaming Harrell for his injuries and just blame Gullickson for screwing him up in the weight room? We all, myself included, love to blame people for the happenings of the world, and since Gullickson's gone, he's an easy target. Let's throw the Rock under the bus, I say. HE screwed Harrell up, whether he did or not.

[Gunakor]

First of all, I just wanna say that I would not want to have both Waldo and Patler up my butt on any issue. Partial, you ain't gonna be able to get by just on "truthiness" with those two around.

Second, I agree with KY that two back surgeries and maybe a third is not a good sign for Harrell's future. That seems more than ominous to me.

Third, since Gullickson has been fired, wouldn't it be best to stop blaming Harrell for his injuries and just blame Gullickson for screwing him up in the weight room? We all, myself included, love to blame people for the happenings of the world, and since Gullickson's gone, he's an easy target. Let's throw the Rock under the bus, I say. HE screwed Harrell up, whether he did or not.

Watch Harrell start 16 games this year now that Rock is gone :lol:

[mission]

NOw I am unimpressed. As a 24 year old weighing 190lbs I put 225 up 23 times in the only time I ever even tried it....these guys are huge fucking pussies.

That's pretty strong bruh. I did six reps... but I was a 185 lb QB at 18.

Still, 23... nice.

[Fritz]

First of all, I just wanna say that I would not want to have both Waldo and Patler up my butt on any issue. Partial, you ain't gonna be able to get by just on "truthiness" with those two around.

Second, I agree with KY that two back surgeries and maybe a third is not a good sign for Harrell's future. That seems more than ominous to me.

Third, since Gullickson has been fired, wouldn't it be best to stop blaming Harrell for his injuries and just blame Gullickson for screwing him up in the weight room? We all, myself included, love to blame people for the happenings of the world, and since Gullickson's gone, he's an easy target. Let's throw the Rock under the bus, I say. HE screwed Harrell up, whether he did or not.

Watch Harrell start 16 games this year now that Rock is gone :lol:

That's the spirit!

[sharpe1027]

NOw I am unimpressed. As a 24 year old weighing 190lbs I put 225 up 23 times in the only time I ever even tried it....these guys are huge fucking pussies.

Congrats, that is pretty impressive. However, these guys you are calling pussies, I would love to so you get lined up opposite them on the line. I bet your 23 reps would kick their ass up and down the field.

I think most of us realize that there are plenty of guys that can out-lift professional football players, and that wasn't really the point of the discussion.

[bobblehead]

NOw I am unimpressed. As a 24 year old weighing 190lbs I put 225 up 23 times in the only time I ever even tried it....these guys are huge fucking pussies.

Congrats, that is pretty impressive. However, these guys you are calling pussies, I would love to so you get lined up opposite them on the line. I bet your 23 reps would kick their ass up and down the field.

I think most of us realize that there are plenty of guys that can out-lift professional football players, and that wasn't really the point of the discussion.

Very true, the 190 lbs of me wouldn't fare too well. I just wanted to call them pussies from the anonymity of my keyboard :P

[SnakeLH2006]

NOw I am unimpressed. As a 24 year old weighing 190lbs I put 225 up 23 times in the only time I ever even tried it....these guys are huge fucking pussies.

That's pretty strong bruh. I did six reps... but I was a 185 lb QB at 18.

Still, 23... nice.

I agree, those are nice numbers bro. In high school I was prob. 195-200 as a 6'4" Split End and QB. Don't remember what my 225 reps were at but I do remember being one of 5 guys on our team (a good team too even at Div. 6) to make the Super 1000. That involved squats, deadlifts, bench, 40 and mile runs in some super twisted formula to come to 1000 or more points. Got a nice t-shirt though!

I was faster than strong as I ran a 4.56 40 as a 6'4" white boy my junior year, as that was my forte, but could do some deece benches, but doubt I could come close to that, then or now.

I did some work as a spot starter/backup TE and DE at D3 in college at 220lb. as that's still my weight at 28 years old.

Those are some sick numbers bro, though, on bench at 190, as I just got back in the gym scene at a Snap Fitness. I go more reps of 8 times at 225 now, but would be interesting to see if I could go near that many in a sheer numbers of lifts. Doubt it though.

[bobblehead]

NOw I am unimpressed. As a 24 year old weighing 190lbs I put 225 up 23 times in the only time I ever even tried it....these guys are huge fucking pussies.

That's pretty strong bruh. I did six reps... but I was a 185 lb QB at 18.

Still, 23... nice.

I agree, those are nice numbers bro. In high school I was prob. 195-200 as a 6'4" Split End and QB. Don't remember what my 225 reps were at but I do remember being one of 5 guys on our team (a good team too even at Div. 6) to make the Super 1000. That involved squats, deadlifts, bench, 40 and mile runs in some super twisted formula to come to 1000 or more points. Got a nice t-shirt though!

I was faster than strong as I ran a 4.56 40 as a 6'4" white boy my junior year, as that was my forte, but could do some deece benches, but doubt I could come close to that, then or now.

I did some work as a spot starter/backup TE and DE at D3 in college at 220lb. as that's still my weight at 28 years old.

Those are some sick numbers bro, though, on bench at 190, as I just got back in the gym scene at a Snap Fitness. I go more reps of 8 times at 225 now, but would be interesting to see if I could go near that many in a sheer numbers of lifts. Doubt it though.

I have the advantage of spreading my 190 over 5'9" instead of 6'4" and I have relatively short arms. I'm 39 now and generally stick with dumbells, but damn, now I'm tempted to head over the the flat bench and give it shot.

[Guiness]

NOw I am unimpressed. As a 24 year old weighing 190lbs I put 225 up 23 times in the only time I ever even tried it....these guys are huge fucking pussies.

Do you have 34" long arms (most guys don't have 34" legs)?

There is a cubic relationship between arm length and bench reps/pectoral strength.

A longer arm, even a small amount, has a significant effect on the bench press exercise.

All too true Waldo. And Bobble re-inforced it later - he has short arms. The fulcrum (probably not 100% the right term) makes all the difference in the world.

Body type makes all the difference in the world for bench - that's why a some DE's don't put up big numbers, coaches like their DE's with long arms. One of the TE's on my uni team was very strong, had ridiculously long arms. Don't know how tall he was, but over 6'6" I'd guess, and 250-260lbs. He could struggle up 225 ONCE. We also had a tailback that stood 5'5, and couldn't reach the bottom of his pockets (this was obvious when it came to his round if you went to a bar with him) and would do 10 reps at 225 as part of his warm up.

When the TE did a rep, I bet the bar moved 3' from bottom to top. I don't know that it moved 6" when the halfback did it.

[SnakeLH2006]

NOw I am unimpressed. As a 24 year old weighing 190lbs I put 225 up 23 times in the only time I ever even tried it....these guys are huge fucking pussies.

That's pretty strong bruh. I did six reps... but I was a 185 lb QB at 18.

Still, 23... nice.

I agree, those are nice numbers bro. In high school I was prob. 195-200 as a 6'4" Split End and QB. Don't remember what my 225 reps were at but I do remember being one of 5 guys on our team (a good team too even at Div. 6) to make the Super 1000. That involved squats, deadlifts, bench, 40 and mile runs in some super twisted formula to come to 1000 or more points. Got a nice t-shirt though!

I was faster than strong as I ran a 4.56 40 as a 6'4" white boy my junior year, as that was my forte, but could do some deece benches, but doubt I could come close to that, then or now.

I did some work as a spot starter/backup TE and DE at D3 in college at 220lb. as that's still my weight at 28 years old.

Those are some sick numbers bro, though, on bench at 190, as I just got back in the gym scene at a Snap Fitness. I go more reps of 8 times at 225 now, but would be interesting to see if I could go near that many in a sheer numbers of lifts. Doubt it though.

I have the advantage of spreading my 190 over 5'9" instead of 6'4" and I have relatively short arms. I'm 39 now and generally stick with dumbells, but damn, now I'm tempted to head over the the flat bench and give it shot.

Actually I'm almost 6'6" now, but I do agree that it is more difficult having longer arms to bench. We had a RB who was probably 5'5" on our high school team that could bench lift over 300 lbs. no problem. I always gave him shit on how easy he made it look cuz he had such stout arms, but either way, 23 reps is beasting no matter how ya look at it. Squats are easier and my younger sis told me I still hold the cone/agility test record at my high school that I attribute to good agility, but very long arms and longs.

These physical tests are all moot though if Harrell can't play. Bottom line. Didn't the Eagles draft some DE over a decade ago with insane testing numbers in speed/strength and he was a pretty fair assessment of a bust. Not saying Harrell is yet, but I'm not holding my breath either.

Of anyone that remembers Harrell when he "was" healthy at Tennessee, was he dominant as a football player? What could we expect with him at DE (if healthy)? Just wondering...

[Guiness]

Of anyone that remembers Harrell when he "was" healthy at Tennessee, was he dominant as a football player? What could we expect with him at DE (if healthy)? Just wondering...

I assume you're talking about Mamula - often sited when refering to workout warriors. He went to the combine relatively unknown, put up freakish numbers, and the Eagles took him seventh overall.

He wasn't a bust in the common sense. He played out his rookie contract, and recorded 30 sacks. But then just wasn't interested in football and retired.

[bobblehead]

All this basically is pretty good info on workout numbers and such. It also is why in the end I prefer guys who produce on the field and am no so much impressed by 40 times and other factors. Size matters and as Waldo pointed out 34" arms are more valuable than powerful pecs. Snake pointed out that long arms and legs help a lot in things like the shuttle run.

In the end prototypical size and production on the field are more important to becoming a solid pro. Problem is that to be special you need all that , the strength and the size too...so when a team reaches for an impact player its usually production on the field that has been the thing lacking. That tends to be an all or nothing approach.

[Waldo]

All this basically is pretty good info on workout numbers and such. It also is why in the end I prefer guys who produce on the field and am no so much impressed by 40 times and other factors. Size matters and as Waldo pointed out 34" arms are more valuable than powerful pecs. Snake pointed out that long arms and legs help a lot in things like the shuttle run.

In the end prototypical size and production on the field are more important to becoming a solid pro. Problem is that to be special you need all that , the strength and the size too...so when a team reaches for an impact player its usually production on the field that has been the thing lacking. That tends to be an all or nothing approach.

Harrell didn't suck in college. Tn's run D was 2.5 ypc better when Justin was on the field, though he wasn't the most accomplished pass rusher in the draft, he had batted more than 2x as many passes as any other guy in the draft and was up there is TFL's. He was just lacking in sacks.

[TennesseePackerBacker]

Of anyone that remembers Harrell when he "was" healthy at Tennessee, was he dominant as a football player? What could we expect with him at DE (if healthy)? Just wondering...

I assume you're talking about Mamula - often sited when refering to workout warriors. He went to the combine relatively unknown, put up freakish numbers, and the Eagles took him seventh overall.

He wasn't a bust in the common sense. He played out his rookie contract, and recorded 30 sacks. But then just wasn't interested in football and retired.

There's a reason why Harrell wore #92 at Tennessee. He was a dominant d-lineman and really thought to be the next John Henderson/Albert Haynesworth type D lineman that UT seems to produce every 4-6 years. I liked the pick when we got him, and I still do. You can't knock the kid for not being healthy.

[rbaloha1]

JH shall shine at de. Be patient. (Realize 2 years is a lifetime but JH is due.)

[KYPack]

Of anyone that remembers Harrell when he "was" healthy at Tennessee, was he dominant as a football player? What could we expect with him at DE (if healthy)? Just wondering...

He was a total bitch when healthy. Mostly a college DT in a 5-2 or 4-3. He had it all and was almost always doubled. He handled doubles with very little problems. I saw film on him when I was on Lake Cumberland two summers ago. It was a UTenn show. They were interviewing the kid that was gonna replace Harrell. They ran a lot of film on Harrell and he was VERY impressive. JH has all the moves. He can swim, rip, twist and split doubles with ease. The guy is extremely quick and strong. It was easy to see why he went as highly as he did. I think he played 4 games his senior year. If he'd played all 12, he would have easily been a top 5 pick.