How Often Do You Have Sex with Your Wife/Husband per week?

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Not to take attention away from Mazzin's thread, but though I dont know it yet, I think I may be falling for the pretty girl at work.

How often do married people fuck? I swear to God I am not LJ and i know nothing about hacking, but just from reading the regulars' posts for almost 2 years now and from my excellent investigative skill (I should join the FBI after college), this much I learned about the married folks:

Bresky and Nick Collins are turning to porn to satisfy their sexual desires. MJZiggy's husband is invisible. Wallbangers' once pretty wife is losing her prettiness with age. Grnbay007 is divorced. Nutz wife, in theory, is getting fat. Harlan is a divorced man fantasizing about Lolita. Campbell hasnt been posting for a while, so in theory, he may be marrying his 11th wife right now for all we know.

My theory is this: people get married and think they can have unlimited sex with each other. But after the second child, they stop having sex, at least not on regular basis. Eventually, the sex isnt good anymore so that prompted the wife and husband to cheat. The husband fuck the girl at work and the wife fuck the mailman. Soon the dont even have sex at all. But because of their love for their children or because of the financial difficulties of divorce, they are unlikely to divorce each others. They say love is fleeting. I think it is just sex.

Your feedback will help me greatly in deciding whether i should propose to the girl i am now falling for at the end of the summer.

Thanks.

[MJZiggy]

Now it's for sure. You've completely lost your mind to the ill effects of drugs.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Now it's for sure. You've completely lost your mind to the ill effects of drugs.

Are you suggesting I should not propose?

[MJZiggy]

Yes, that, and that you've completely lost your mind.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Yes, that, and that you've completely lost your mind.

A friend of mine who, along with his wife, will be seniors next fall, got married last year and they has a child and they seemed happy. I am just doing a little research to see if marriage is really as good or as terrible as they say. Another friend is married and he and the wife really talk to each others anymore. So i am a bit confused about the whole ordeal.

[MJZiggy]

You can't take one example and generalize that to whether marriage is good or bad. You have to take time to get to know this girl. You have to find out if your philosophies on life, money, religion, child rearing and other things mesh. (God help us all if they do) You have to get past the infatuation to find out if their habits drive you insane of if they're worth putting up with. You also need to know if she's trustworthy and if she wants you for you or your daddy's money. Some people are the right fit for each other some are not. Takes a bit of time to figure out. And sex between married people is also as individual as their relationship. If sex stopped after marriage, you would not have seen the giant families before birth control became effective. 12 kids? You don't get those by ignoring each other after the first or second.

[woodbuck27]

It's a little more involved - than having sex or not this or that many times Tank.

Yes the sexual activity is a barometer of sorts, but let's cut to the chase here , Eh ?

Tank enjoy what time you may have with this young woman. Man,you are way too young and over the top, having too much fun and too much you to consider a serious proposition, as getting married.

I really believe that marriage before 25-28 depended on arrived maturity is not the plan. You are young and have to enjoy your maturing years.

Women are a plenty young fella. One may leave and more step up to examine YOU. Any man who thinks he's got it over women (that he is smarter - is not in the best place).

That saying: "Behind every good man is a good or better woman", is so DAM true.

Are you smart enough and ready ( properly matured in all it's aspects )for her? Ask yourself that same question this time next year.

Also. Very much respect her as an intelligent friend as well as a lover.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

You can't take one example and generalize that to whether marriage is good or bad. You have to take time to get to know this girl. You have to find out if your philosophies on life, money, religion, child rearing and other things mesh. (God help us all if they do) You have to get past the infatuation to find out if their habits drive you insane of if they're worth putting up with. You also need to know if she's trustworthy and if she wants you for you or your daddy's money. Some people are the right fit for each other some are not. Takes a bit of time to figure out. And sex between married people is also as individual as their relationship. If sex stopped after marriage, you would not have seen the giant families before birth control became effective. 12 kids? You don't get those by ignoring each other after the first or second.

So did you vote? I am only interested in the sex aspact of marriage because, in theory, it is what keeps the marriage going.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

It's a litle more involved in having sex or not this or that many times Tank.

Yes the sexual activity is a barometer of sorts but let's cut to the chase here , Eh ?

Tank enjoy what time you may have with this young woman and man,you are way too young and over the top having too much fun and too much you to consider a serious proposition as getting married.

I really believe that marriage before 25-28 depended on arrived maturity is not the plan. You are young and have to enjoy your maturing years.

Women are a plenty young fella. One may leave and more step up to examine YOU. Any man who thinks he's got it over women (is smarter is not in the best place).

That saying: "Behind every good man is a good or better woman", is so DAM true.

Are you smart enough and ready ( properly matured in all it's aspects )for her? Ask yourself that same question this time next year.

WB, again you show that you are very wise. I will think about what you wrote.

[Partial]

Thats not even close to true.

[MJZiggy]

Tank, what goes on in my bedroom is no more your business than what goes on in yours is my business. What I can tell you is that I've been married a LONG time and my marriage is healthy.

[Deputy Nutz]

Trust me Tank, Marriage is all about sex, seems like all I do is take care of my kids, type on the computer, and then have sex. It seems like all I ever do is boink my wife.

Get married, and give it hell!!!

You must be really bored this summer Tank. I mean to have the time to come up with all this make believe shit, and all of these made up stories takes a lot of time.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Tank, what goes on in my bedroom is no more your business than what goes on in yours is my business. What I can tell you is that I've been married a LONG time and my marriage is healthy.

That must mean that sex is going good between you and your husband. Thanks to Vigeria, I believe. Sex is the most important aspect of marriage, in theory, because when it gets dull, thats when couple becomes dishonest, and if they cant handle living in such a state of dishonestly, they break up.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think that this study needs to be broken into age groups. Or something. I mean, most people f like bunnies in their 20's. I'm curious if people keep humping after being married for 10 years.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

You must be really bored this summer Tank. I mean to have the time to come up with all this make believe shit, and all of these made up stories takes a lot of time.

Nut roll, unlike you who is a stay at home dad (hahahah), i get up at 7:30 AM Monday-Friday to get ready to go to work. What is there to do at night when you have try to get to bed at midnight other than smoke weed and chat in here? Everything is I wrote is legit. But you can believe what you want to believe, because you are a stay at home dad.

[MJZiggy]

Didn't Masters and Johnson do a study or two on that, or maybe it was Kinsey.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Didn't Masters and Johnson do a study or two on that, or maybe it was Kinsey.

Forget about age group or Johnson and Masters. I just want to know how many of you married posters have sex with your spouce per week. Please vote.

[Deputy Nutz]

Tank you are so right, sex is so damn important. It is the reason why we get married, and it is most deffinantly the reason why all divorices happen.

I think you got it all figured out.

[Deputy Nutz]

You must be really bored this summer Tank. I mean to have the time to come up with all this make believe shit, and all of these made up stories takes a lot of time.

Nut roll, unlike you who is a stay at home dad (hahahah), i get up at 7:30 AM Monday-Friday to get ready to go to work. What is there to do at night when you have try to get to bed at midnight other than smoke weed and chat in here? Everything is I wrote is legit. But you can believe what you want to believe, because you are a stay at home dad.

Lets be honest, your jealous, thats cool I can accept that. To bad you can't. We all know how much you like to work, and we all know how much you love being a robot. Please Tank, don't ever let your job define you.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Lets be honest, your jealous, thats cool I can accept that. To bad you can't. We all know how much you like to work, and we all know how much you love being a robot. Please Tank, don't ever let your job define you.

Hey, I dont have 2 kids to feed do I? So I can quit anytime I want to without having to worry about feeding to kids. But truth be told, I actually enjoy the internship this summer. Met the girl and get to see her everyday.

[woodbuck27]

Tank, what goes on in my bedroom is no more your business than what goes on in yours is my business. What I can tell you is that I've been married a LONG time and my marriage is healthy.

Sex is the most important aspect of marriage, in theory, because when it gets dull, thats when couple becomes dishonest, and if they cant handle living in such a state of dishonestly, they break up.

Generally that is a true statement Tank.

When you get to be about 35-40 years of age you will be tested with something in a male called - Mid Life Crisis.Read all you can on that topic,Tank. That is the single BEST gift I could give to you. I recommend also, the book - PASSAGES by I believe, Gail Sheey.

Understanding Men's Passages - is a good book to read, to grasp the basic developmental stages that men go through in life.

Before real love lies infatuation, an enamoured emotion of the close relationship you may develop with a woman. Give yourself time to examine that period in a romance.

Always after that, go with your guts. Gut instinct is a solid guide towords truth.

You may be the primary bread winner, and normally if that is the case you have to be properly educated and financially set to tackle the biggest punt to a failed marriage. Economic difficulties. Get your education and have fun.Get yourself setup financialy and emotionally in maturity, before even considering marriage.

[Deputy Nutz]

So your not a robot?

[Anti-Polar Bear]

So your not a robot?

A now happy robot for 40 hours a week. It sure beats babysitting 2 kids all day.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Tank, what goes on in my bedroom is no more your business than what goes on in yours is my business. What I can tell you is that I've been married a LONG time and my marriage is healthy.

Sex is the most important aspect of marriage, in theory, because when it gets dull, thats when couple becomes dishonest, and if they cant handle living in such a state of dishonestly, they break up.

Generally that is a true statement Tank.

When you get to be about 35-40 years of age you will be tested with something in a male caled - Mid Life Crisis.Read all you can on that topic,Tank. That is the single BEST gift I could give to you. I recommend also, the book - PASSAGES by I believe Gail Sheey. Understanding Men's Passages - is a good book to read, to grasp the basic developmental stages that men go through in life.

Before real love lies infatuation, an enamoured emotion of the close relationship you may develop with a woman. Give yourself time to examine that period in a romance.

Always after that go with your guts. Gut instinct is a solid guide towords truth.
You may be the primary bread winner, and normally if that is the case you have to be properly educated and financially set to tackle the biggest punt to a failed marriage. Economic difficulties. Get your education and have fun.Get yourself setup financialy and emotionally in maturity, before even considering marriage.

Wise words, WB.

[Deputy Nutz]

So your not a robot?

A now happy robot for 40 hours a week. It sure beats babysitting 2 kids all day.

And the next thing you know, you're a republican, trying to save an extra 4 dollars on your taxes.

[Scott Campbell]

So your not a robot?

A now happy robot for 40 hours a week. It sure beats babysitting 2 kids all day.

When they're your own kids, it's never babysitting.

[MJZiggy]

You beat me to it.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

And the next thing you know, you're a republican, trying to save an extra 4 dollars on your taxes.

Again, 24% of my check last week went to Uncle Sam. I had no problem with it. Saved me time from contributing to a liberal charity directly. I am a liberal.

[Deputy Nutz]

And the next thing you know, you're a republican, trying to save an extra 4 dollars on your taxes.

Again, 24% of my check last week went to Uncle Sam. I had no problem with it. Saved me time from contributing to a liberal charity directly. I am a liberal.

Well, thanks for supporting the war effort.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

When they're your own kids, it's never babysitting.

What is it called then? When you are a male and you stay at home day watching the kids, you are basically babysitty. When the mother watches the kids all day, its called motherhood. When the father does that, its called babysitting.

[MJZiggy]

No, it's called parenthood. One day you may find yourself doing it.

[Scott Campbell]

And the next thing you know, you're a republican, trying to save an extra 4 dollars on your taxes.

Again, 24% of my check last week went to Uncle Sam. I had no problem with it. Saved me time from contributing to a liberal charity directly. I am a liberal.

Did 24% of Dad's "borrowed" 3 grand go to charity?

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Well, thanks for supporting the war effort.

I am not alone. Millions of other liberals are subjected to such taxation. Its the Republicans fault for voting Bush as president.

[Deputy Nutz]

When they're your own kids, it's never babysitting.

What is it called then? When you are a male and you stay at home day watching the kids, you are basically babysitty. When the mother watches the kids all day, its called motherhood. When the father does that, its called babysitting.

You might be a liberal, but you are certainly a sexist.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

You might be a liberal, but you are certainly a sexist.

Wrong. I am calling you a pussy for having 2 kids and doing nothing to provide for them. You are just like Peg Bundy.

YOu are the head of household.

[Harlan Huckleby]

You are just like Peg Bundy.


goddamn, that's funny!

[MJZiggy]

How is caring for them doing nothing to provide for them? Have you not read the studies about the benefits of paternal interaction for children?

[Harlan Huckleby]

Have you not read the studies about the benefits of paternal interaction for children?

Have you not seen "Married with Children"?

[MJZiggy]

Do I need to make a vet appointment for you?

[GrnBay007]

You might be a liberal, but you are certainly a sexist.

Wrong. I am calling you a pussy for having 2 kids and doing nothing to provide for them. You are just like Peg Bundy.

YOu are the head of household.

You certainly are sexist tank. Not too long ago in the financial thread you commented that I am able to save for retirement and buy a house because of robbing my ex with child support. You couldn't be more wrong and you ARE sexist.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a stay at home Dad.

[Deputy Nutz]

You might be a liberal, but you are certainly a sexist.

Wrong. I am calling you a pussy for having 2 kids and doing nothing to provide for them. You are just like Peg Bundy.

YOu are the head of household.

WoW!!! Who made me the head of the household?

Maybe you should come over to my house and teach me how to provide for my kids, since you are the expert, and my wife and I no nothing.

[Deputy Nutz]

Have you not read the studies about the benefits of paternal interaction for children?

Have you not seen "Married with Children"?

You had no right to watch Married with Children, you have now sullied it for the rest of us.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

[quote="GrnBay007"] You couldn't be more wrong and you ARE sexist.
quote]

You couldnt be more wrong. As a liberal, I am for women's liberation.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

WoW!!! Who made me the head of the household?

Maybe you should come over to my house and teach me how to provide for my kids, since you are the expert, and my wife and I no nothing.

Oh, i forgot. Your wife is the one working. She's now the head of household.

[MJZiggy]

Actually, Tank, liberals believe that people are not to be judged by their lifestyle choices including opportunities for women and men to live their lives the way they choose including time off for family leave for both men and women, reproductive choice and--why the hell am I bothering. I just remembered who I'm talking to. Never mind.

[Deputy Nutz]

[quote=GrnBay007] You couldn't be more wrong and you ARE sexist.
quote]

You couldnt be more wrong. As a liberal, I am for women's liberation.

Well then you agree, I liberated my wife from taking care of the kids, so she could fulfill her career aspirations.

Here is a hint for ya Tank, stop running your fucking pie hole, on shit you know nothing about, calling yourself a shitbag liberal doesn't cover your ass and all your dumb ass views, it makes you look like a blowhard on this forum.

[Partial]

Hey, I dont have 2 kids to feed do I? So I can quit anytime I want to without having to worry about feeding to kids. But truth be told, I actually enjoy the internship this summer. Met the girl and get to see her everyday.

You may not have 2 kids, but you have 3G's to pay off. You probably won't do that, though, since you'll piss it all away on drugs.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Actually, Tank, liberals believe that people are not to be judged by their lifestyle choices including opportunities for women and men to live their lives the way they choose including time off for family leave for both men and women, reproductive choice and--why the hell am I bothering. I just remembered who I'm talking to. Never mind.

That is what i meant when i said i was for women's liberation!!!
I have nothing agianst Nutz wife. I have nothing against 007. I have nothing against you.

[Deputy Nutz]

The problem with all of us is that we responded to this thread, and tank got the attention he craves. We gave in because it was a Sunday night and had nothing else to talk about.

Sorry to everyone involved.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

The problem with all of us is that we responded to this thread, and tank got the attention he craves. We gave in because it was a Sunday night and had nothing else to talk about.

Sorry to everyone involved.

I was doing a reserach, nut roll. See the poll? If you had shut up and not reply to this thread, it wouldnt have gotten this long. I just want the data. Everybody, please vote!!!

[MJZiggy]

Actually, Tank, liberals believe that people are not to be judged by their lifestyle choices including opportunities for women and men to live their lives the way they choose including time off for family leave for both men and women, reproductive choice and--why the hell am I bothering. I just remembered who I'm talking to. Never mind.

That is what i meant when i said i was for women's liberation!!!
I have nothing agianst Nutz wife. I have nothing against 007. I have nothing against you.

You have nothing against Nutz's wife for the decisions they've made?

[Partial]

When they're your own kids, it's never babysitting.

What is it called then? When you are a male and you stay at home day watching the kids, you are basically babysitty. When the mother watches the kids all day, its called motherhood. When the father does that, its called babysitting.


Fatherhood.

[Partial]

Well, thanks for supporting the war effort.

I am not alone. Millions of other liberals are subjected to such taxation. Its the Republicans fault for voting Bush as president.

Ha! If Kerry was president and the democrats ran the entire show with house and senate, even more of your money would be taken. And I'm sure, as a liberal, you're very well versed in exactly where that money is going to and how it is being put to use.

[Partial]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a stay at home Dad.

Could not be more true. Especially in this day and age where every parents is trying to give their kids more male influences earlier in life since the divorce rate is so high and kids tend to live with their mothers. Having a strong fatherly influence is very, very important

[Fosco33]

What exactly is a spouce? Is that a new fangled sex toy or a new nickname for Rosey Palm?

[Anti-Polar Bear]

[quote=Anti-Polar Bear]

Ha! If Kerry was president and the democrats ran the entire show with house and senate, even more of your money would be taken. And I'm sure, as a liberal, you're very well versed in exactly where that money is going to and how it is being put to use.


If Gore had won the election back in '00, which he did but conservative Florida staged their election, there wouldnt be a war in Iraq. The UN wouldve forced Huissien to resign and none of the shit happening today would not have happened.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

What exactly is a spouce? Is that a new fangled sex toy or a new nickname for Rosey Palm?

Its called "I do not pay attention to spelling because I can always use spell check when i want to; thanks to the liberal Bill Gates and Mircrosoft Words."

[Partial]

You couldn't be more wrong and you ARE sexist.
quote]

You couldnt be more wrong. As a liberal, I am for women's liberation.

You give liberals everywhere a bad name. When I think of you and the shit you post, I don't think educated liberal, I think condescending, judgemental jackass. Since you like to stereotype everyone, including yourself as a liberal, you certainly don't fit the stereotype of a liberal. Not even close.

[Fosco33]

Mircrosoft

That has to be a new company he founded. You've got me ROTFLMAO.

I love you man.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Microsoft

That has to be a new company he founded. You've got me ROTFLMAO.

I love you man.

Here, via Word. (Keep in mind that we are not living in a stone age anymore)

MICROSOFT

[Anti-Polar Bear]

[quote=GrnBay007] You couldn't be more wrong and you ARE sexist.
quote]

You couldnt be more wrong. As a liberal, I am for women's liberation.

You give liberals everywhere a bad name. When I think of you and the shit you post, I don't think educated liberal, I think condescending, judgemental jackass. Since you like to stereotype everyone, including yourself as a liberal, you certainly don't fit the stereotype of a liberal. Not even close.

Have you ever heard of the phase, "action speaks louder than words?"Since I was 18, i have always voted democrat.

[GrnBay007]

The problem with all of us is that we responded to this thread, and tank got the attention he craves. We gave in because it was a Sunday night and had nothing else to talk about.

Sorry to everyone involved.


LOL Boy, you got that right Nutz! If you go back and read Tank's very first sentence in this thread: "Not to take attention away from Mazzin's thread"

Good Lord, they are now competing for attention. :shock:

Preseason can not come too soon!!!

[Fosco33]

Microsoft

That has to be a new company he founded. You've got me ROTFLMAO.

I love you man.

Here, via Word. (Keep in mind that we are not living in a stone age anymore)

MICROSOFT

Man, you should just download Google toolbar. It has a form spellcheck function among other things (popup blocker, autolink finder, autofill form (for your address/credit card/etc). Much easier than copying/pasting from Word everytime you want to post.

[Partial]

Good. And I'm sure you voted democrat without researching your candidate at all. I am glad you think you're all self-righteous by voting Democrat. Furthermore, your actions reak of ignorant idiot, not educated liberal.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Good Lord, they are now competing for attention. :shock:

Preseason can not come too soon!!!

And you complain of boredom is theres nothing to talk about. For the sake of Sam hill, just dont read this thread if you dont like it. I only read about 2% of your stuff, honestly.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Good. And I'm sure you voted democrat without researching your candidate at all. I am glad you think you're all self-righteous by voting Democrat. Furthermore, your actions reak of ignorant idiot, not educated liberal.

And you have a narrow mind. Have you ever considered the seriousness of what I writes? Or are you just pissed because I keep spelling your name wrong? Partial and Partail sounds the same.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Man, you should just download Google toolbar. It has a form spellcheck function among other things (popup blocker, autolink finder, autofill form (for your address/credit card/etc). Much easier than copying/pasting from Word everytime you want to post.

Have that shit. Dont use it. Just want to give kiddos to Bill Gates, the world's richest Liberal. I think I am gonna go buy an xbox 360 next weekend, out of respect for Gates.

[Deputy Nutz]

The problem with all of us is that we responded to this thread, and tank got the attention he craves. We gave in because it was a Sunday night and had nothing else to talk about.

Sorry to everyone involved.


LOL Boy, you got that right Nutz! If you go back and read Tank's very first sentence in this thread: "Not to take attention away from Mazzin's thread"

Good Lord, they are now competing for attention. :shock:

Preseason can not come too soon!!!


You hit the nail on the head yourself! Maybe Tank and his other Aliases can get competing threads going until the start of Training Camp to keep us all entertained

[Anti-Polar Bear]

You hit the nail on the head yourself! Maybe Tank and his other Aliases can get competing threads going until the start of Training Camp to keep us all entertained

I only have 1 here Nut Roll. If you think I am taking attention from you, start your own threads!!!! I wont read them but I am sure others will!!! You claim that I am bored, maybe you are the one whose really bored? I mean you read everything, man.

[MJZiggy]

He's admin. He's supposed to read everything.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

He's admin. He's supposed to read everything.

And why did he become Admin in the 1st place? Hell, even as admin he could just read 1/3 of the stuff in here. THeres tow other adm plus Harlan. Boredom? Methink so.

[GrnBay007]

Geez Tank, do you read anyone's stuff?

The list of those posters tank does not read

Skinbasket
Nutz
Scott Campbell
me

did I forget any?

[Partial]

Good. And I'm sure you voted democrat without researching your candidate at all. I am glad you think you're all self-righteous by voting Democrat. Furthermore, your actions reak of ignorant idiot, not educated liberal.

And you have a narrow mind. Have you ever considered the seriousness of what I writes? Or are you just pissed because I keep spelling your name wrong? Partial and Partail sounds the same.

No, I do not have a narrow mind. Not at all in fact. The seriousness of what you write? Yes, i've considered it. You have whined about work, bragged about how you nonchalantly blew 3000 of your PARENTS dollars and then tried to justify it, since like you your parents are self-righteous liberals. You've offended men everywhere who spend their days at home taking care of children, and downplayed the importance of a father figure in a child's life. Anyone else want to add to the list?

[Partial]

He's admin. He's supposed to read everything.

And why did he become Admin in the 1st place? Hell, even as admin he could just read 1/3 of the stuff in here. THeres tow other adm plus Harlan. Boredom? Methink so.

Responsibility.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Geez Tank, do you read anyone's stuff?

The list of those posters tank does not read

Skinbasket
Nutz
Scott Campbell
me

did I forget any?

Oh i read Campbell's posts.

I said I read 2% of your posts.

I read GB Micheles and Harlan and JSM.

I read some of WB's posts. Most of his copy and paste i have read already.

Wallbangers, all he does is post copy and paste. Thats why i dont read his posts.

There are others who hates me too, but i forgot there names cos i dont read there post much, like 1%.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Oh yeah, Mazzins

and Bretsky

and Nick Collins. I read their posts.

I dont read: Sharmrockfans or Idele the threat.

[GrnBay007]

There are others who hates me too, but i forgot there names cos i dont read there post much, like 1%.

I don't hate you tank. You are not mean, just wish someday down the road we get to know the real tank .....I'm sure he's in there somewhere....underneath all the bs.

[Partial]

There are others who hates me too, but i forgot there names cos i dont read there post much, like 1%.

I don't hate you tank. You are not mean, just wish someday down the road we get to know the real tank .....I'm sure he's in there somewhere....underneath all the bs.

agreed.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Bascially, I am a liberal so I read what I wants to read. :cool:

[Partial]

Aren't liberals supposed to be versed in everyone's opinions though and be educated so they can make an appropriate, informed decision?

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Aren't liberals supposed to be versed in everyone's opinions though and be educated so they can make an appropriate, informed decision?

Yes, but I dont have to make "an appropriate, informed decision" in here. Liberals can also read what they want to read. FOr example, conservatives like to ban pornography. Liberals argue that anyone should be able to read what they want to read. Liberalism is good, wheras conservativism is bad.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Aren't liberals supposed to be versed in everyone's opinions though and be educated so they can make an appropriate, informed decision?

Most college women are liberal. The point of being liberal is to get layed with college women.

Partial, you are over-thinking this.

[Partial]

Aren't liberals supposed to be versed in everyone's opinions though and be educated so they can make an appropriate, informed decision?

Yes, but I dont have to make "an appropriate, informed decision" in here. Liberals can also read what they want to read. FOr example, conservatives like to ban pornography. Liberals argue that anyone should be able to read what they want to read. Liberalism is good, wheras conservativism is bad.

last time I checked, as history has shown, as societies have become more liberal, censorship has increased.

[GrnBay007]

Romper Room has officially become the home of the dysfunctional family the AP thread in JSO once was. :mrgreen: It was kinda nice to have just one thread back in the day though....oh well, times change.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

last time I checked, as history has shown, as societies have become more liberal, censorship has increased.

You must have read a book written by a conservative fuck, or you didnt understand what youve read.

Liberalism is about freedom and open mindness.

[Partial]

Tell that to China. Go ahead and do yourself a favor and search for tiananmen square from Google USA and Google China. I'll provide you links.

Google America (http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&sa=N&resnum=0&q=tiananmen%20square&spell=1&tab=wi)

Google China (http://images.google.cn/images?hl=zh-CN&sa=N&resnum=0&q=tiananmen%20square&spell=1&tab=wi)

Here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4645596.stm) is a BBC article on the censorship.

[Deputy Nutz]

Stop arguing with a rock

[GrnBay007]

Take it to FYI!!!



oh wait, we don't use ours for that purpose, sorry

:D

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Tell that to China. Go ahead and do yourself a favor and search for tiananmen square from Google USA and Google China. I'll provide you links.


WTF? Liberalism is nothing close to Communism. If you think so, you need to retake Theology 101.

[Partial]

last time I checked, as history has shown, as societies have become more liberal, censorship has increased.

You must have read a book written by a conservative fuck, or you didnt understand what youve read.

Liberalism is about freedom and open mindness.

No, no its not. It's about control. Since when isn't Karl Marx a liberal? What about Max Weber? Dostoevsky? Adam Smith? I consider myself a fairly liberal person. The difference between conservative and liberal people running for office in today's world is very minimal. You're kidding yourself if you think you'd notice a single difference in your life if the 2004 election went the other way. You're ignorant. Incredibly ignorant. Perhaps you should do some reading yourself.

[esoxx]

Romper Room has officially become the home of the dysfunctional family the AP thread in JSO once was. :mrgreen: It was kinda nice to have just one thread back in the day though....oh well, times change.

Good times back in the day!!

[GrnBay007]

Romper Room has officially become the home of the dysfunctional family the AP thread in JSO once was. :mrgreen: It was kinda nice to have just one thread back in the day though....oh well, times change.

Good times back in the day!!

Amen Amigo......you gave it the family name!! :razz:

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Read this (From wikipedia):

Liberalism is an ideology, philosophical view, and political tradition which holds that liberty is the primary political value.[1] Broadly speaking, liberalism seeks a society characterized by freedom of thought for individuals, limitations on power, especially of government and religion, the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, a market economy that supports relatively free private enterprise, and a transparent system of government in which the rights of minorities are protected. [2] In modern society, liberals favour a liberal democracy with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law and an equal opportunity to succeed[3]. Liberalism rejected many foundational assumptions which dominated most earlier theories of government, such as the Divine Right of Kings, hereditary status, and established religion. Fundamental human rights that all liberals support include the right to life, liberty, and property. In many countries, "modern" liberalism differs from classical liberalism by asserting that government provision of some minimal level of material well-being takes priority over freedom from taxation. Liberalism has its roots in the Western Enlightenment, but the term now encompasses a diversity of political thought, with adherents spanning a large part of the political spectrum, from left to right. In the context of economics, the term "liberalism" refers to economic liberalism, which is associated with the political ideology of liberalism itself.

A broader use of the term liberalism is in the context of liberal democracy (see also constitutionalism). In this sense of the word, it refers to a democracy in which the powers of government are limited and the rights of citizens are legally defined; this applies to nearly all Western democracies, and therefore is not solely associated with liberal parties.

[Partial]

Tell that to China. Go ahead and do yourself a favor and search for tiananmen square from Google USA and Google China. I'll provide you links.


WTF? Liberalism is nothing close to Communism. If you think so, you need to retake Theology 101.

Liberalism is the stepping stone to communism. Liberalism is all about control. It is about treating everyone as equals, is it not? More government since the people are not wise enough to govern themselves. Take that a step further (or a state of emergency here) and tell me that is not socialism. You're living in a dream world if you think you're free by offering up your control, civil rights, and money to the government so they'll take care of you.

[Deputy Nutz]

Read this (From wikipedia):

Liberalism is an ideology, philosophical view, and political tradition which holds that liberty is the primary political value.[1] Broadly speaking, liberalism seeks a society characterized by freedom of thought for individuals, limitations on power, especially of government and religion, the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, a market economy that supports relatively free private enterprise, and a transparent system of government in which the rights of minorities are protected. [2] In modern society, liberals favour a liberal democracy with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law and an equal opportunity to succeed[3]. Liberalism rejected many foundational assumptions which dominated most earlier theories of government, such as the Divine Right of Kings, hereditary status, and established religion. Fundamental human rights that all liberals support include the right to life, liberty, and property. In many countries, "modern" liberalism differs from classical liberalism by asserting that government provision of some minimal level of material well-being takes priority over freedom from taxation. Liberalism has its roots in the Western Enlightenment, but the term now encompasses a diversity of political thought, with adherents spanning a large part of the political spectrum, from left to right. In the context of economics, the term "liberalism" refers to economic liberalism, which is associated with the political ideology of liberalism itself.

A broader use of the term liberalism is in the context of liberal democracy (see also constitutionalism). In this sense of the word, it refers to a democracy in which the powers of government are limited and the rights of citizens are legally defined; this applies to nearly all Western democracies, and therefore is not solely associated with liberal parties.

God damn it, I just realized I am a fucking Liberal. I feel dirty.

[esoxx]

Romper Room has officially become the home of the dysfunctional family the AP thread in JSO once was. :mrgreen: It was kinda nice to have just one thread back in the day though....oh well, times change.

Good times back in the day!!

Amen Amigo......you gave it the family name!! :razz:

It's more like the Dysfunctional Family Fued in here. Familiarity is breeding contempt! :?

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Some principles liberals generally agree upon:

Political liberalism is the belief that individuals are the basis of law and society, and that society and its institutions exist to further the ends of individuals, without showing favor to those of higher social rank. The Magna Carta is an example of a political document that asserted the rights of individuals even above the prerogatives of monarchs. Political liberalism stresses the social contract, under which citizens make the laws and agree to abide by those laws. It is based on the belief that individuals know best what is best for them. Political liberalism enfranchises all adult citizens regardless of sex, race, or economic status. Political liberalism emphasizes the rule of law and supports liberal democracy.

Cultural liberalism focuses on the rights of individuals pertaining to conscience and lifestyle, including such issues as sexual freedom, religious freedom, cognitive freedom, and protection from government intrusion into private life. John Stuart Mill aptly expressed cultural liberalism in his essay "On Liberty," when he wrote, "The sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection. That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant." Cultural liberalism generally opposes government regulation of literature, art, academics, gambling, sex, prostitution, abortion, birth control, terminal illness, alcohol, and marijuana and other controlled substances. Most liberals oppose some or all government intervention in these areas. The Netherlands, in this respect, may be the most liberal country in the world today.
However, some trends within liberalism reveal stark differences of opinion:

Economic liberalism, also called classical liberalism or Manchester liberalism, is an ideology which supports the individual rights of property and freedom of contract. It advocates laissez-faire capitalism, meaning the removal of legal barriers to trade and cessation of government-bestowed privilege such as subsidy and monopoly. Economic liberals want little or no government regulation of the market. Some economic liberals would accept government restrictions of monopolies and cartels, others argue that monopolies and cartels are caused by state action. Economic liberalism holds that the value of goods and services should be set by the unfettered choices of individuals, that is, of market forces. Some would also allow market forces to act even in areas conventionally monopolized by governments, such as the provision of security and courts. Economic liberalism accepts the economic inequality that arises from unequal bargaining positions as being the natural result of competition, so long as no coercion is used. This form of liberalism is especially influenced by English liberalism of the mid 19th century. Minarchism and anarcho-capitalism are forms of economic liberalism. (See also Free trade, Neo-liberalism, liberalization )

Social liberalism, also known as new liberalism (not to be confused with 'neoliberalism') and reform liberalism, arose in the late 19th century in many developed countries, influenced by the utilitarianism of Jeremy Bentham and John Stuart Mill. Some liberals accepted, in part or in whole, Marxist and socialist exploitation theory and critiques of "the profit motive", and concluded that government should use its power to remedy these perceived problems. According to the tenets of this form of liberalism, as explained by writers such as John Dewey and Mortimer Adler, since individuals are the basis of society, all individuals should have access to basic necessities of fulfillment, such as education, economic opportunity, and protection from harmful macro-events beyond their control. To social liberals, these benefits are considered rights. These positive rights, which must be produced and supplied by other people, are qualitatively different from the classic negative rights, which require only that others refrain from aggression. To the social liberal, ensuring positive rights is a goal that is continuous with the general project of protecting liberties. Schools, libraries, museums, and art galleries are to be supported by taxes. Social liberalism advocates some restrictions on economic competition, such as anti-trust laws and price controls on wages ("minimum wage laws.") It also expects governments to provide a basic level of welfare, supported by taxation, intended to enable the best use of the talents of the population, to prevent revolution, or simply "for the public good."

[esoxx]

Opps, probably shouldn't have used the word "breeding" in this thread. Might spark another poll question.

[Partial]

Tank I don't have the time or the energy to read that stuff. If we're going to debate, do it with me. Not some article someone else wrote to cover up your lack of understanding. If you want to bold out single sentences I should read, you may do so and I will. Otherwise, its just not worth the effort.

[GrnBay007]

Romper Room has officially become the home of the dysfunctional family the AP thread in JSO once was. :mrgreen: It was kinda nice to have just one thread back in the day though....oh well, times change.

Good times back in the day!!

Amen Amigo......you gave it the family name!! :razz:

It's more like the Dysfunctional Family Fued in here. Familiarity is breeding contempt! :?

No kidding. we never fought in AP

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Tank I don't have the time or the energy to read that stuff. If we're going to debate, do it with me. Not some article someone else wrote to cover up your lack of understanding. If you want to bold out single sentences I should read, you may do so and I will. Otherwise, its just not worth the effort.

You are sparing lies, I am just giving you the truth. You are thinking Liberalsm is commumism; it is not. Read or believe what your want to believe.

Fine give me some fact supporting your idea of Liberalism.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Some principles liberals generally agree upon:

Political liberalism is the belief that individuals are the basis of law and society, and that society and its institutions exist to further the ends of individuals, without showing favor to those of higher social rank. The Magna Carta is an example of a political document that asserted the rights of individuals even above the prerogatives of monarchs. Political liberalism stresses the social contract, under which citizens make the laws and agree to abide by those laws. It is based on the belief that individuals know best what is best for them. Political liberalism enfranchises all adult citizens regardless of sex, race, or economic status. Political liberalism emphasizes the rule of law and supports liberal democracy.

Cultural liberalism focuses on the rights of individuals pertaining to conscience and lifestyle, including such issues as sexual freedom, religious freedom, cognitive freedom, and protection from government intrusion into private life. John Stuart Mill aptly expressed cultural liberalism in his essay "On Liberty," when he wrote, "The sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection. That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant." Cultural liberalism generally opposes government regulation of literature, art, academics, gambling, sex, prostitution, abortion, birth control, terminal illness, alcohol, and marijuana and other controlled substances. Most liberals oppose some or all government intervention in these areas. The Netherlands, in this respect, may be the most liberal country in the world today.
However, some trends within liberalism reveal stark differences of opinion:

Economic liberalism, also called classical liberalism or Manchester liberalism, is an ideology which supports the individual rights of property and freedom of contract. It advocates laissez-faire capitalism, meaning the removal of legal barriers to trade and cessation of government-bestowed privilege such as subsidy and monopoly. Economic liberals want little or no government regulation of the market. Some economic liberals would accept government restrictions of monopolies and cartels, others argue that monopolies and cartels are caused by state action. Economic liberalism holds that the value of goods and services should be set by the unfettered choices of individuals, that is, of market forces. Some would also allow market forces to act even in areas conventionally monopolized by governments, such as the provision of security and courts. Economic liberalism accepts the economic inequality that arises from unequal bargaining positions as being the natural result of competition, so long as no coercion is used. This form of liberalism is especially influenced by English liberalism of the mid 19th century. Minarchism and anarcho-capitalism are forms of economic liberalism. (See also Free trade, Neo-liberalism, liberalization )

Social liberalism, also known as new liberalism (not to be confused with 'neoliberalism') and reform liberalism, arose in the late 19th century in many developed countries, influenced by the utilitarianism of Jeremy Bentham and John Stuart Mill. Some liberals accepted, in part or in whole, Marxist and socialist exploitation theory and critiques of "the profit motive", and concluded that government should use its power to remedy these perceived problems. According to the tenets of this form of liberalism, as explained by writers such as John Dewey and Mortimer Adler, since individuals are the basis of society, all individuals should have access to basic necessities of fulfillment, such as education, economic opportunity, and protection from harmful macro-events beyond their control. To social liberals, these benefits are considered rights. These positive rights, which must be produced and supplied by other people, are qualitatively different from the classic negative rights, which require only that others refrain from aggression. To the social liberal, ensuring positive rights is a goal that is continuous with the general project of protecting liberties. Schools, libraries, museums, and art galleries are to be supported by taxes. Social liberalism advocates some restrictions on economic competition, such as anti-trust laws and price controls on wages ("minimum wage laws.") It also expects governments to provide a basic level of welfare, supported by taxation, intended to enable the best use of the talents of the population, to prevent revolution, or simply "for the public good."

[Scott Campbell]

No kidding. we never fought in AP

Makes me glad that I've always taken the high road and remained above the fray.

[Deputy Nutz]

No kidding. we never fought in AP

Makes me glad that I've always taken the high road and remained above the fray.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

[Scott Campbell]

Anyone else find it funny that Tank is thread jacking his own thread?

[GrnBay007]

No kidding. we never fought in AP

Makes me glad that I've always taken the high road and remained above the fray.

LOL scott and nutz, you guys kept your "stuff" outside AP.......that was the happy place.

[GrnBay007]

Anyone else find it funny that Tank is thread jacking his own thread?

What is the definition of thread jacking?

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Liberalism is the stepping stone to communism. Liberalism is all about control. It is about treating everyone as equals, is it not? More government since the people are not wise enough to govern themselves. Take that a step further (or a state of emergency here) and tell me that is not socialism. You're living in a dream world if you think you're free by offering up your control, civil rights, and money to the government so they'll take care of you.

Does it ever occur to you that the word liberal comes from the latin liber, which means free?

[Partial]

yes, and that is great. It means NOTHING today. I would argue that in order for every person to feel free, there is definitely a great deal of government control and intervention involved.

[Deputy Nutz]

I just realized that I was a liberal, and I have also recently started a Bolshevik Rebelion.

[Partial]

Hahaha, if any of you are on myspace and search the "wisconsin bolshevik revolutionary commision" you will find a group I started. I have since canceled my account, though.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

I just realized that I was a liberal, and I have also recently started a Bolshevik Rebelion.

Marx idea of communism is far different from Stalin's idea. Marx believed the working class would overtake the ruling class in a revolution. Consequently society would then become classless. Under Stalin and until the end of the cold war, the USSR was a society of commoners and governors. That state controlled everything. That's not Marxism.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

yes, and that is great. It means NOTHING today. I would argue that in order for every person to feel free, there is definitely a great deal of government control and intervention involved.

Partail talks about ignorance and when I presented him the facts, he becomes ignorant himself. Read the fucking article.

[the_idle_threat]

No kidding. we never fought in AP

Makes me glad that I've always taken the high road and remained above the fray.

You took the words right out of my mouth.


How do you reconcile "the high road" and "Don't fuck with the 3 amigos buddy." :?:

[Scott Campbell]

Anyone else find it funny that Tank is thread jacking his own thread?

What is the definition of thread jacking?

Changing the the (thread topic) subject.

[GrnBay007]

Anyone else find it funny that Tank is thread jacking his own thread?

What is the definition of thread jacking?

Changing the the (thread topic) subject.

He has to do that....according to him he only reads a very limited amount of post authors in the forum. He's not opening his mind to other's opinions as a real liberal would IMO

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Anyone else find it funny that Tank is thread jacking his own thread?

What is the definition of thread jacking?

Changing the the (thread topic) subject.

Campbell you are an idiot. I was arguing with Partial and we were arguing about the defination of Liberalism. How is posting the defination of liberalsm a change of subject?

[GrnBay007]

I was arguing with Partial and we were arguing about the defination of Liberalism. How is posting the defination of liberalsm a change of subject?

Hmmm....definition of liberalism vs. how many times a married person has sex with their spouce....aka spouse. sounds like you changed the subject a bit.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Tell that to China. Go ahead and do yourself a favor and search for tiananmen square from Google USA and Google China. I'll provide you links.


WTF? Liberalism is nothing close to Communism. If you think so, you need to retake Theology 101.

Liberalism is the stepping stone to communism. Liberalism is all about control. It is about treating everyone as equals, is it not? More government since the people are not wise enough to govern themselves. Take that a step further (or a state of emergency here) and tell me that is not socialism. You're living in a dream world if you think you're free by offering up your control, civil rights, and money to the government so they'll take care of you.

This is the post that started everything about liberalism.

[Partial]

yes, and that is great. It means NOTHING today. I would argue that in order for every person to feel free, there is definitely a great deal of government control and intervention involved.

Partail talks about ignorance and when I presented him the facts, he becomes ignorant himself. Read the fucking article.

I'm not reading your wikipedia article. There is no point. I understand what liberalism encompasses. What you fail to acknowledge is how that while all this equality and government control is not always a good thing.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

I was arguing with Partial and we were arguing about the defination of Liberalism. How is posting the defination of liberalsm a change of subject?

Hmmm....definition of liberalism vs. how many times a married person has sex with their spouce....aka spouse. sounds like you changed the subject a bit.

Ask Partail then. Hes the one who changed the subject.

[the_idle_threat]

In Tank's defense, isn't an argument on the merits of "liberalism lite" ultimately the point of all his threads? :smile:

[GrnBay007]

In Tank's defense, isn't an argument on the merits of "liberalism lite" ultimately the point of all his threads? :smile:

Is that similar to a "troll lite"? :D

[Anti-Polar Bear]

I'm not reading your wikipedia article. There is no point. I understand what liberalism encompasses. What you fail to acknowledge is how that while all this equality and government control is not always a good thing.

See, you are ignorance of the facts. By exactly how much government control are you talking about? Liberalism is not Communism. If you had read the article, you would discover that liberalism seeks only limited government control.

Show me where Liberalism is communism. Unless you have phd on the subject i dont believe you.

[the_idle_threat]

In Tank's defense, isn't an argument on the merits of "liberalism lite" ultimately the point of all his threads? :smile:

Is that similar to a "troll lite"? :D


Yes, I believe so ... :mrgreen:

[Scott Campbell]

How is posting the defination of liberalsm a change of subject?


Uhhh, it should be pretty self apparent Tank. But if you insist.......

Your thread is about frequency of sex among married couples. It's not about Liberalism. Here's a crazy thought - how bout you cover this in the more appropriately themed FYI thread?

At least you managed to keep it in the Romper Room, so I guess we'd call that progress. Baby steps.......

[GrnBay007]

At least you managed to keep it in the Romper Room, so I guess we'd call that progress. Baby steps.......

And in closing, tank really should honor us all with a "Ted Thompson is trapped in the closet" song.

[Partial]

I'm not reading your wikipedia article. There is no point. I understand what liberalism encompasses. What you fail to acknowledge is how that while all this equality and government control is not always a good thing.

See, you are ignorance of the facts. By exactly how much government control are you talking about? Liberalism is not Communism. If you had read the article, you would discover that liberalism seeks only limited government control.

Show me where Liberalism is communism. Unless you have phd on the subject i dont believe you.

It's not communism. It's a stepping stone in that direction, though. As for facts, I don't think that an article that any person (including myself) can edit can be taken as fact. As for government control, your boy Kerry and his fellow democrats historically have been for more government regulations and organizations. While I consider these a huge ass waste of money since a company looking to turn profit or a non-profit 3rd party would do the job in a much more efficient manner. Liberals historically have promoted more government control in order to ensure everyone's inalienable rights. If you want me to read something and for it to be taken with a grain of salt, wikipedia is not the place.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

[quote=Scott Campbell]

And in closing, tank really should honor us all with a "Ted Thompson is trapped in the closet" song.

Sorry. Unlike Nutz, who is a stay at home dad, I gotta go to bed now. Work trm and it is 1 37 AM here in the east coast. Well sure beats being a stay at home dad.

Later.

[Partial]

How is posting the defination of liberalsm a change of subject?


Uhhh, it should be pretty self apparent Tank. But if you insist.......

Your thread is about frequency of sex among married couples. It's not about Liberalism. Here's a crazy thought - how bout you cover this in the more appropriately themed FYI thread?

At least you managed to keep it in the Romper Room, so I guess we'd call that progress. Baby steps.......

Hey, i'm just a guilty, though. There are many, many threads where this occurs. I will try to prevent this in the future.

[Partial]

[quote=Scott Campbell]

And in closing, tank really should honor us all with a "Ted Thompson is trapped in the closet" song.

Sorry. Unlike Nutz, who is a stay at home dad, I gotta go to bed now. Work trm and it is 1 37 AM here in the east coast. Well sure beats being a stay at home dad.

Later.

What's with the personal attacks? That's a load of bull. Cut it out. For what its worth, I think Nutz providing for a family by being a role-model and father is a much more valuable contribution to society than any you'll be making tomorrow.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

It's not communism. It's a stepping stone in that direction, though. As for facts, I don't think that an article that any person (including myself) can edit can be taken as fact. As for government control, your boy Kerry and his fellow democrats historically have been for more government regulations and organizations. While I consider these a huge ass waste of money since a company looking to turn profit or a non-profit 3rd party would do the job in a much more efficient manner. Liberals historically have promoted more government control in order to ensure everyone's inalienable rights. If you want me to read something and for it to be taken with a grain of salt, wikipedia is not the place.

How do i know you aren't stating your opinion? Show me where it said "its a stepping stone in that direction (Communism)." Show me where it said "liberalism is all about control" as you previously stated. Do you have a Phd in this matter that you can stat it without any source to back you up?

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Heres a more reliable article for you to read. It is not wikipedia. :)

Oxford Manifesto 1997
The Liberal Agenda for the 21st Century:
The Liberal Manifesto, adopted by the 48th Congress of Liberal International on 27-30 November 1997 in The Town Hall in Oxford, UK


Inspired by the founders of the Liberal International who fifty years ago launched the Liberal Manifesto, 475 Liberals from every continent have returned to Oxford on 27ÂÂÂ*30 November 1997 to consider Liberal responses to the challenges and opportunities that emerge on the threshold of a new millennium.

Over the past 50 years, substantial progress has been made in establishing open societies based upon political and economic liberty. However, there is still a long way to go. New generations have to define liberal priorities in the face of new opportunities and new dangers.

There remain many challenges to Liberalism: from the violation of human rights, from excessive concentrations of power and wealth; from fundamentalist, totalitarian, xenophobic and racist ideologies, from discrimination on grounds of sex, religion, age, sexual orientation and disability; from poverty and ignorance, from the widening gap between rich and poor; from the misuse of new technologies, from the weakening of social ties, from competition for scarce resources, from environmental degradation in an overcrowded world, from organised crime and from political corruption. Our task as Liberals in the 21st Century will be to seek political responses to these new challenges which promote individual liberty and human rights, open societies and economies, and global cooperation.

Our Liberal Values

We reaffirm our commitment to the principles of Liberalism set out in the International Liberal Manifesto of April 1947: that liberty and individual responsibility are the foundations of civilised society; that the state is only the instrument of the citizens it serves; that any action of the state must respect the principles of democratic accountability; that constitutional liberty is based upon the principles of separation of powers; that justice requires that in all criminal prosecution the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, and to a fair verdict free from any political influence; that state control of the economy and private monopolies both threaten political liberty; that rights and duties go together, and that every citizen has a moral responsibility to others in society; and that a peaceful world can only be built upon respect for these principles and upon cooperation among democratic societies. We reaffirm that these principles are valid throughout the world.

Freedom, responsibility, tolerance, social justice and equality of opportunity: these are the central values of Liberalism, and they remain the principles on which an open society must be built. These principles require a careful balance of strong civil societies, democratic government, free markets, and international cooperation.

We believe that the conditions of individual liberty include the rule of law, equal access to a full and varied education, freedom of speech, association, and access to information, equal rights and opportunities for women and men, tolerance of diversity, social inclusion, the promotion of private enterprise and of opportunities for employment. We believe that civil society and constitutional democracy provide the most just and stable basis for political order. We see civil society as constituted by free citizens, living within a framework of established law, with individual rights guaranteed, with the powers of government limited and subject to democratic accountability.

We believe that an economy based on free market rules leads to the most efficient distribution of wealth and resources, encourages innovation, and promotes flexibility.

We believe that close cooperation among democratic societies through global and regional organisations, within the framework of international law, of respect for human rights, the rights of national and ethnic minorities, and of a shared commitment to economic development worldwide, is the necessary foundation for world peace and for economic and environmental sustainability.

The advance of Liberalism, 1947-97

We welcome the progress made over the past fifty years in putting Liberal principles into practice in a growing number of countries:

the return of freedom and democracy to the former communist countries in Europe


the spread of democratic government and the rule of law.


the end of colonialism, with previously-subject peoples gaining the opportunity for self-government.


the retreat of the state from control of national economies, with widespread acceptance that market economies create wealth more effectively and distribute it more widely.


the transformation of education from a privilege for a minority to a life-long process for a rising proportion of citizens.


growing respect for human rights, both within states and as a subject for international oversight and - where necessary - intervention.


a growing national and international awareness of the human rights of women and children.


the extension of the rules of equality to sexual minorities and the recognition that homosexuality and lesbianism are legitimate expressions of personal proclivities.

the consolidation of an open international economy, within an agreed framework of international regulation.


the strengthening of international law and of global and regional institutions.
increased freedom of information, communication and travel, both within and across national boundaries.


acceptance that shared responsibility within the world community extends to a common obligation to tackle world poverty and to protect the global environment.


The challenge for our generation

We recognise that these achievements have been won so far for only a minority of humankind.

The challenges we face in the next fifty years are to build on what has been achieved, to extend the principles of liberalism throughout the world, and to harness the forces of change to consolidate rather than to undermine the development of open societies.

The challenges we face include:

1. The challenge of extending democracy.

Liberal democracy has at last become widely accepted as the global model for political organisation. But only a minority of states are yet properly democratic. Authoritarian regimes, military elites usurping power, abuse of state powers for partisan purposes, criminal elements gaining influence over government, power-seekers exploiting popular hopes and fears, still block the path to liberty. We call on all governments and peoples

* to discriminate in international relations in favour of governments which observe the rules of human rights and democracy;

* to abolish capital punishment all over the world;

* to strengthen the rule of law and to promote good governance within a genuinely democratic framework;

* to redirect public spending from military expenditure towards investment in social capital, sustainability, and the alleviation of poverty;

* to limit the sale of arms, and to prevent the sale of the means of repression to non-democratic regimes, and to promote the effectiveness of the UN register of conventional arms;

* to combat corruption, organised crime and terrorism;

* to promote media free from undue control or interference by government or dominant companies;

* to instil through education the crucial importance of tolerance to the very existence of a civilised society

2. The challenge of violence and of global governance.

In a world filled with violent conflicts, one of the most critical tasks is to find effective means of avoiding violence. An increasingly interdependent world also requires a high standard of international cooperation to promote a secure, sustainable and equitable world order. Transnational crime, intractable disease, environmental pollution and the threat of climate change pose additional challenges for international cooperation. Liberals are committed to strengthen global governance through the United Nations and through regional cooperation. We call on all governments to join in the initiative to establish an international criminal court with jurisdiction over war criminals. Our objective in the 21st century is to build a liberal world order securely based upon the rule of law and backed by appropriate global and regional institutions.

3. The challenge of improving democracy.

We recognise that democratic practices must be extended further to meet the expectations of more educated societies and to protect against disillusionment with representative government. Citizens deserve better access to information, more effective parliamentary controls on executive power, wider opportunities to play an active part in public life and to question their governments. The principle of subsidiarity must be fully respected, to give the maximum autonomy to regions and local communities. Effective decentralisation of political power to self-governing communities remains the best way to empower every citizen.

4. The tension between self-government and human rights.

Self-government, more specifically state sovereignty, can conflict with individual freedom and human rights. Authoritarian regimes abuse the principle of sovereignty to bar intervention to support those who are denied freedom. Liberals insist that human rights are indivisible and universal, and do not depend on citizenship of a specific state, or on membership of a particular ethnic or social group, gender, religion or political party. Adequate sanctions should be found by the international community against governments which refuse to observe the principles of an open international society.

5. The challenge of poverty and social exclusion.

Poverty, unemployment, and social exclusion blight the lives of men and especially of women, children and the elderly, and present major dangers to civil society. Poverty breeds despair and despair breeds extremism, intolerance and aggression. The central question in the alleviation of poverty is how to provide people with the means to fight poverty themselves, to lift themselves out of poverty. We call for an active policy, creating opportunity for education and employment, assistance for those who cannot help themselves, resting upon a partnership between public and private provision. Public institutions and welfare systems must be as flexible and as locally administered as possible, aiming to promote individual responsibility and respond to individual circumstances.

6. The challenge of lean government.

The age-old misconception that it is government's business to organise people's happiness is heading for crisis, if not collapse, all over the world. In most industrialised countries, exaggerated and ill-targeted systems of social security and redistribution threaten to break down, and state budgets to impose ever-increasing debt burdens on future generations. In developing countries, attempts to promote development exclusively or predominantly by government action are bound to fail, through overloading government and stifling private initiative, the only factor that can produce really sustainable development. Liberals recognise that the capacity of government is limited, that 'big government' and the growth of state expenditure are themselves serious threats to a free society, and that limiting the scope of government and retrenchment of government spending must therefore be given priority.

7. The need for a new contract between generations.

We recognise the tensions between the immediate pressures of demand and consumption and the long-term interests of community and environment, with which governments as trustees for society must be concerned. We seek a new contract between generations, recognising the benefits which current consumers and citizens have received from earlier investment and the responsibilities they carry to maintain and renew the natural environment, cultural treasures, public assets and social capital for future generations. Prices should reflect the underlying costs of pollution and of the exploitation of natural resources.

8. The challenge of scientific and technological progress.

We welcome the economic and social opportunities presented by new technologies and scientific innovation. But we also recognise the need for public scrutiny of their potential impact, and misuse, and for national and international regulation. The precautionary principle should be the governing principle in all sectors of human activity. This is particularly true for the threat of climate change, which mankind has to address immediately. Binding agreements and timetables for substantial reductions of the consumption of fossil fuels are urgently needed. Consumption must be kept within the regenerative capacities of the ecosystems. All chemicals, genetically engineered substances and industrial products should be carefully tested before they are commercially utilised. We also welcome the revolution in communications, which offers new opportunities to promote creativity, decentralisation, and individual autonomy and initiative. Liberals insist upon diverse channels of communication, provided through competition in the open market. Information, networks and other communication structures must be widely accessible, with open systems for producers and consumers and public interest bodies.

9. The challenge of creating open markets.

Open societies need open markets. A liberal, open and tolerant society requires a market economy. Political freedom and economic freedom belong together. With the markets of ideas and innovations, with the competition for the best solution, the market economy creates a dynamic progress that provides the best opportunity for an independent life. With the underlying principle of private property and a legal framework to prevent monopolies, open markets generate private initiative and the economic means for social assistance. Bureaucratic regulations of market economics and protectionism are therefore barriers for new chances and new jobs in developing countries as well as in the industrialised world.

In order to achieve an ecologically and socially sustainable development the emphasis should be shifted from taxation of labour to taxation of energy and raw material consumption. Without such a change the environmental problems and the unemployment will continue to increase.

10. The challenge of world-wide development.

Corrupt and authoritarian government, weak states and societies, unemployment, impoverishment, illiteracy, and over-population all contribute to environmental degradation, generate flows of migrants and refugees, and provoke revolts against political and social order. It is in the long-term self-interest of the developed world to encourage human progress, and assist economic development within poor countries; it is also a moral responsibility. Since open global markets best serve to promote prosperity, within both rich and poor countries, Liberals will have to aggressively re-emphasise, and to the best of their ability implement, their firm conviction that free trade, by giving the best opportunities to the economically weak, is the safest way towards overcoming poverty in the world. Resistance to economic protectionism therefore remains a key Liberal commitment.

At the dawn of the 21st century we commit ourselves as Liberals to work together to meet these challenges. We reaffirm the Liberal commitment to place the freedom and dignity of every human being at the centre of our political life.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

What's with the personal attacks? That's a load of bull. Cut it out. For what its worth, I think Nutz providing for a family by being a role-model and father is a much more valuable contribution to society than any you'll be making tomorrow.

As a liberal, I would be sympathetic toward Nutz had he lost the job because of laid off or he was unjustly fired. But the nut roll, according to his thread, quit it voluntary (probably just for the summer). I just thought it was funny for a guy who used to endorse an AL bundy avatar but is now more like Peg Bundy.

Ok, as a liberal, no more joking about nutz being a stay at home dad.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I just thought it was funny for a guy who used to endorse an AL bundy avatar but is now more like Peg Bundy.

Ok, as a liberal, no more joking about nutz being a stay at home dad.

I'm not sure how Nutz sees it, but I don't count this as a personal attack. I think it is good natured-kidding, and funny as hell. But I suppose one person's good natured kidding is another's kick in the weiner.

[Partial]

How do i know you aren't stating your opinion? Show me where it said "its a stepping stone in that direction (Communism)." Show me where it said "liberalism is all about control" as you previously stated. Do you have a Phd in this matter that you can stat it without any source to back you up?

I'm at work so I do not have time to deal with this. As an intelligent human being who makes logical choices based on the information that is presented to him - not by choosing a standard affiliation and following their views to the T, I think I can logical say that as society works towards equal rights and equality between all people, it naturally takes steps towards socialism. I don't see why that is such a hard concept to follow. It's very self-evident. When prejudice and judgement are removed, everyone becomes the same.

[the_idle_threat]

... and then we are all robots? :D

[Tony Oday]

I always thought tank was a young sophmoric person but this thread proves it. Babied his entire life never actually having to work without a net.

I wish I could be a stay at home dad but my wife's income could never support us. Unlike lil Tank I have to work every day to provide for my wife child and puppy. I dont get free money I make my money.

When you get a little older Tank you will realize that you will be a conservative. Trust me it will sneak up on you when you are looking at real taxes being taken out of your check. Try having 35% of your cash paying for taxes. On top of that be retaxed for your property, taxed on your capital gains and giving to charity.

Unlike what you think Conservatives are not heartless people. They ask for fiscal responsability instead of giving away cash to everyone. I do not support welfare but a form of workfare is great. Hand up lil man not hand out.

When you go an entire year without getting one dime from your parents come back here and judge. Until then you are a spoiled little brat who knows nothing of the outside world except what you read in books. TRUST me that your micro 101 book and your personal finance book will end up being so much fluff as you make your way in the world.

You have the knowledge and Im sure as you mature you will actually begin to use it.

[Mr. T]

Another school research project. Eh tank?

[Bossman641]

You can't argue with Tank because he holds all the trump cards

Attempt to have a discussion with him about TT vs Sherman as a GM - Tank brings out the records in each year

Have a political argument with him - He claims he won't listen to you unless you have a PhD

Offended by something he said - It's all good. Being a liberal, Tank claims that he is all for the equal treatment of all and you have no reason to be offended.

Arguing with Tank is an exercise in futility and brings you nothing but frustration.

[BigDmoney]

being a stay at home dad or a father of any sort will never be a concern for Tank. Because in order to have kids, one has to have sex and I can assure you that this little douchebag has a great deal of trouble getting layed. What tank, the ladies don't dig you witty "get-in-the-kitchen" banter. Your a creepy, stalkerish, wierdo that probably gets his jollies from sniffing panties at target and writing love letters in cut out newspaper type to co-workers. Now learn something real in this world like responsibility and respect you tool.

[imscott72]

being a stay at home dad or a father of any sort will never be a concern for Tank. Because in order to have kids, one has to have sex and I can assure you that this little douchebag has a great deal of trouble getting layed. What tank, the ladies don't dig you witty "get-in-the-kitchen" banter. Your a creepy, stalkerish, wierdo that probably gets his jollies from sniffing panties at target and writing love letters in cut out newspaper type to co-workers. Now learn something real in this world like responsibility and respect you tool.

Now thats some funny shit... :mrgreen:

[KYPack]

being a stay at home dad or a father of any sort will never be a concern for Tank. Because in order to have kids, one has to have sex and I can assure you that this little douchebag has a great deal of trouble getting layed. What tank, the ladies don't dig you witty "get-in-the-kitchen" banter. Your a creepy, stalkerish, wierdo that probably gets his jollies from sniffing panties at target and writing love letters in cut out newspaper type to co-workers. Now learn something real in this world like responsibility and respect you tool.

The opinion on Tank breaks into two camps:

1. He's witty, silly, not serious, but always a fun guy who always posts with tongue in cheek.

2. He's a tedious, repetitive weasel. When he isn't hijacking threads, he is constantly repeating his posts. An immature scumbag, his mere presence is a negative.

Me? I'm solidly in the BigDMoney camp.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

1. He's witty, silly, not serious, but always a fun guy who always posts with tongue in cheek.


Yep. That is me.

[Deputy Nutz]

Hey KY, you forgot the group that thinks he is an attention whore.

[KYPack]

Hey KY, you forgot the group that thinks he is an attention whore.

That was the idea of the label for group 2.

I also forgot "chickenshit dildo for spending 3-4 K of his 'Daddy's money' on a date", but ya know, ya can't think of everything.

Are you really in a "tri-namic trio" with Skin and Murph?

[Little Whiskey]

Are you really in a "tri-namic trio" with Skin and Murph?

i also think there are some farm animals involved.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Hey KY, you forgot the group that thinks he is an attention whore.

That is because my dad didnt pay attention to me as a kid. When I shut down Darren Charles, he wasnt there. :cry: :wink:

[Little Whiskey]

That is because my dad didnt pay attention to me as a kid. When I shut down Darren Charles, he wasnt there. :cry: :wink:

so if he was a stay at home dad, you wouldn't have all these problems?

[Anti-Polar Bear]

That is because my dad didnt pay attention to me as a kid. When I shut down Darren Charles, he wasnt there. :cry: :wink:

so if he was a stay at home dad, you wouldn't have all these problems?

Who said I regretted it? Because my dad isnt a stay at home dad, i gets to speed $3-4 k of his money without any remorse, and perhaps without any conseqence.

[Deputy Nutz]

Are you really in a "tri-namic trio" with Skin and Murph?


Of Course. We go to bingo, go to basket weaving seminars, sniff glue, we even once took a pottery class together. It was nice

[Partial]

bump for the hilariousness of it. It came up while searching for Bretsky's "Show me the money"!

[Freak Out]

bump for the hilariousness of it. It came up while searching for Bretsky's "Show me the money"!

Just reading the poll results was funny.

[Zool]

If I ever miss idiocy, I just have to check for an APB thread and suddenly I dont miss it anymore.

[Deputy Nutz]

Remember Murphy? Now he is the president of the Packers. I miss him

[Partial]

Murphy was pretty damn funny. I miss that guy too. We need some Nutz and Bolts aaction.

[Harlan Huckleby]

We need some Nutz and Bolts aaction.

Is this relevant to the poll?

I think Bill Clinton is right: you have to define what "sex" is.