Who will benefit the most?

[3irty1]

Curious to see your answers!

I'm voting for Hunter. Hunter seems like he could immediately become a pass rushing force at OLB.

[bobblehead]

Brady P will no longer be asked to cover a TE head up, but instead will either fill a zone or rush the passer. His run stuffing will be even better this way as he has the motor and size to take on blockers.

[Guiness]

I agree with Hunter, because he's been able to stick mostly due to his ST play, not as a every down guy. I'd guess his shelf life doing that is limited.
This gives him a bit of a new lease on life, because it seems like he might be a fit.

[Zool]

I think Chillar gets many more opportunities to rush the QB.

[Waldo]

Jeremy Thompson has the potential to be an elite OLB, whereas he would always struggle as an "undersized" guy in the 4-3. He's a long lean athlete that is quick and has good feet, exactly what you look for in an OLB. He has the arms and short range burst of an elite pass rusher.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'm voting for Hunter. Hunter seems like he could immediately become a pass rushing force at OLB.

Harvey?

[Harlan Huckleby]

Jeremy Thompson has the potential to be an elite OLB, whereas he would always struggle as an "undersized" guy in the 4-3. He's a long lean athlete that is quick and has good feet, exactly what you look for in an OLB. He has the arms and short range burst of an elite pass rusher.

elite?

I'm hopeful for Thompson. elite comes from knack for football, not body measurements. Leroy Butler was an elite player, not really special physically, for instance.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I think Bigby will benefit some if they ask him to play closer to the line, but I'm still hoping for an upgrade there.

[Waldo]

Jeremy Thompson has the potential to be an elite OLB, whereas he would always struggle as an "undersized" guy in the 4-3. He's a long lean athlete that is quick and has good feet, exactly what you look for in an OLB. He has the arms and short range burst of an elite pass rusher.

elite?

I'm hopeful for Thompson. elite comes from knack for football, not body measurements. Leroy Butler was an elite player, not really special physically, for instance.

I am working on charting the measurables for every defensive front 7 player drafted in the NFL since about 2001-2002 (about where the measurables sources dry up) and am up to near 100 guys, I hope to be up to 500+ by draft day. Only 1 DE/OLB with measurables on par with Jeremy was a healthy bust (thus far), and he was a 6th rd pick. Athletic freaks play elite, and Jeremy is an athletic freak. Mario Williams far and away has the best measurables in the defensive front 7 of any player playing in the NFL. Up there with him are Peppers, Merriman, Freeney, Will Smith, and Kampman in the pass rusher department (thus far that I have charted). Every single one has been to a pro bowl. There are only 3 guys with mediocre measurables that are elite players that I've come across, Suggs, Allen (who has an elite frame), and Mathis (who was only below average because he was so darn light when drafted (~225)).

There is a VERY strong correlation between measurables and success among the bigs (3-4 DE, 4-3 UT) and mids (3-4 OLB, 4-3 DE). There is only moderate correlation between measurables and success among the smalls (3-4 ILB's, 4-3 LB) and fatties (NT).

[Harlan Huckleby]

Waldo,

why are defensive lineman so famously the source for draft busts? It seems to be the hardest position to predict after QB.

[Harlan Huckleby]

BTW,

I have a theory that Waldo and Patler are the same poster. Maybe it is the nerdy glasses.

[Partial]

Nah, Waldo is really wordy. Shamler is a to the point gent. I cannot stand reading long winded, obvious paragraphs.

[Zool]

Well I for one am glad we have another guy around who uses logic in his posts and doesn't get into flame wars.

[oregonpackfan]

Why isn't Nick Barnett included in the list? Last time I checked, he is still a linebacker on the Packers' roster.

[Patler]

BTW,

I have a theory that Waldo and Patler are the same poster.

Why, just because we never argue? :lol:

[Waldo]

Waldo,

why are defensive lineman so famously the source for draft busts? It seems to be the hardest position to predict after QB.

DE's (or OLB's) that can run a 4.8 40 and 1.65 10, have 32"+ arms, can do 20+ reps, can run a sub 4.45 shuttle (sub 4.25 for OLB's), are at least 6'2", and can jump at an solid level for their weight (~35-36" for a 265-270 lb guy and/or 9'6") and can do the 3 cone in 4.25 or less, rarely ever bust for non-health reasons.

Four classes that regularly bust are wimpy leapers (high jumpers that can't bench much), low rise gym rats (guys that can bench a ton but can't jump), slow pokes (the Monty's, they can't run), and stubbies (short armed and/or short guys). These guys are drafted at all levels, from the top of the draft to the bottom, and are riddled with failure, a very high bust rate. They can become servicable starters, but elite players rarely ever come from one of these classes, yet ever year there is at least 1 first round pick (and several 2nd rounders) that belongs in these groups that turns out mediocre, teams take them on their college production because they are "good football players" and they rarely ever work out as hoped.

Jeremy is a little low in the leaping department (the vertical) but last year they changed the vert test at the combine and #'s were pitiful across the board at all positions (nobody jumped 40", there are regularly 1-2 dozen 40"+ jumpers, either last years class has a serious problem with gravity or the change to the test had a massive effect). Generally that is one test that guys improve on at their pro day (usually an inch or two), last year guys were improving 5"+ at their pro days. Most scouts threw out the combine vert from last year and went on the pro day #'s. Jeremy's pro day #'s are unknown (no public scouts bothered to show up at Wake last year or wrote down most of his testing #'s), but his 9'9" broad jump generally translates to a 36-37" vert, as the two tests are closely related. He was in right around #5-6 for the DE position at the combine at the vert, that too typically translates to about a 36-37" vert.

Jeremy has elite arm lenth (34"+) and height (6'5"), ran a blazing 10 yd split (1.53, faster than almost all DE's/OLB's in the NFL), ran a 4.75 40 (fast enough), put up a solid 25 reps on the bench, did an elite shuttle (4.23), ran an incredible 3 cone (6.97), jumped an elite 9'9" broad jump for his weight (267).

That and in pads he looks exactly like a certain future HOFer that was drafted in the 3rd round on measurables (too bad there is no record of them to compare) that Capers made a DMVP when he coached him.

[Joemailman]

Thompson is very intriguing. He was used some in pass coverage in college and had an 86 yard INT reception for a TD. He wasn't a dynamic pass rusher, but he does have the long arms necessary to avoid getting tied up by OT's. The Packers felt he was underrated as a pass rusher when they drafted him.

[SMACKTALKIE]

I did'nt see Adrian Peterson's name on that list. My vote is for him.

[Pacopete4]

I did'nt see Adrian Peterson's name on that list. My vote is for him.


Haha damn you.. That was a good one.. And most likely so true

[Waldo]

I did'nt see Adrian Peterson's name on that list. My vote is for him.


Haha damn you.. That was a good one.. And most likely so true

I don't see how replacing the SLB with a 3rd DT is going to make our run D worse.

The whole point to a 3-4 from the very beginning was that it was a schematically superior run defense than a 4-3.

[Pacopete4]

I did'nt see Adrian Peterson's name on that list. My vote is for him.


Haha damn you.. That was a good one.. And most likely so true

I don't see how replacing the SLB with a 3rd DT is going to make our run D worse.

The whole point to a 3-4 from the very beginning was that it was a schematically superior run defense than a 4-3.

Check out what AP and the Vikings did against 3-4 defenses and get backto me

[Joemailman]

I would agree. The biggest questions the Packers will face in the 3-4 will be whether they can rush the passer, and whether the OLB's can cover.

[Fritz]

I did'nt see Adrian Peterson's name on that list. My vote is for him.


Haha damn you.. That was a good one.. And most likely so true

I don't see how replacing the SLB with a 3rd DT is going to make our run D worse.

The whole point to a 3-4 from the very beginning was that it was a schematically superior run defense than a 4-3.

Check out what AP and the Vikings did against 3-4 defenses and get backto me

PP versus Waldo???

Alex, I'll take $100,000 on Waldo.

[SMACKTALKIE]

I did'nt see Adrian Peterson's name on that list. My vote is for him.


Haha damn you.. That was a good one.. And most likely so true

I don't see how replacing the SLB with a 3rd DT is going to make our run D worse.

The whole point to a 3-4 from the very beginning was that it was a schematically superior run defense than a 4-3.

Check out what AP and the Vikings did against 3-4 defenses and get backto me



296 yards on thirty carries and three touchdowns against the San Diego Chargers.........I mean, thats pretty good...........right? :lol:

[bobblehead]

I'm voting for Hunter. Hunter seems like he could immediately become a pass rushing force at OLB.

Harvey?

i was on this even before harvey, but I'm reconsidering. Not sure Hunter has the overall skills.

[Fritz]

I'm sorry, but that's a lame and inadequate answer. To get a sense of how effective the 3-4 might be against AP, you'd at least have to first look at his performance against more than one team that runs a 3-4. To just dig his performance out against one team is slanting things. If the Vikes had played, say, the Steelers three times, and I posted AP's numbers against only Pittsburgh, and the numbers sucked, would that "prove" the 3-4 is better? No.

The second item you need is to also look at AP's numbers against a similar number of 4-3 teams. Then you could get a sense of comparison.

So: if you go back, chalk up AP's numbers against a top 3-4 team, a middling one, and a poor one, then chalk up his numbers against a top 4-3 team, a middling one, and a poor one, then compared them and could conclude his numbers were similar or even better against the 3-4, then I'd believe you.

But throwing a few numbers against a wall doesn't prove a thing.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I'm sorry, but that's a lame and inadequate answer. To get a sense of how effective the 3-4 might be against AP, you'd at least have to first look at his performance against more than one team that runs a 3-4. To just dig his performance out against one team is slanting things. If the Vikes had played, say, the Steelers three times, and I posted AP's numbers against only Pittsburgh, and the numbers sucked, would that "prove" the 3-4 is better? No.

The second item you need is to also look at AP's numbers against a similar number of 4-3 teams. Then you could get a sense of comparison.

So: if you go back, chalk up AP's numbers against a top 3-4 team, a middling one, and a poor one, then chalk up his numbers against a top 4-3 team, a middling one, and a poor one, then compared them and could conclude his numbers were similar or even better against the 3-4, then I'd believe you.

But throwing a few numbers against a wall doesn't prove a thing.

Correct.

2007
Dallas - 12 carries for 63 yards
San Diego - 30 carries for 296 yards
San Francisco - 14 carries for 3 yards

That's all we have to go off of. That's one great game, one terrible game, and one average game without a lot of carries.

[Waldo]

I did'nt see Adrian Peterson's name on that list. My vote is for him.


Haha damn you.. That was a good one.. And most likely so true

I don't see how replacing the SLB with a 3rd DT is going to make our run D worse.

The whole point to a 3-4 from the very beginning was that it was a schematically superior run defense than a 4-3.

Check out what AP and the Vikings did against 3-4 defenses and get backto me

Ah yes the old Packer fan method of using a single data point to project results

He has faced 3 3-4 defenses in his career:
vs. Dallas - 12 for 67 yds (T Jax only threw 6/19 for 72 :shock:)
vs. SD - 30 for 296 (T Jax only threw 6/12 for 63 :shock:)
vs. SF - 9 for 13 (T Jax was 16/25 for 163)

8 of the 9 3-4 defenses in the NFL finished in the top half of the league in run defense by YPC (Cleveland didn't).
8 of the 9 3-4 defenses in the NFL finished in the top half of the league in run defense by YPG (Cleveland didn't).
8 of the 9 3-4 defenses in the NFL finished in the top half of the league in run defense by TD's (Cleveland didn't).

The data indicates that the 3-4 defense is superior to the 4-3 for run defense, that AD is not some special 3-4 killer, but had one great statistical outlier of a game, and Tarvaris Jackson absolutely sucks against 3-4 defenses.

[Pacopete4]

He has faced 3 3-4 defenses in his career:
vs. Dallas - 12 for 67 yds (T Jax only threw 6/19 for 72 :shock:) over 5yrds a carry, hmm..
vs. SD - 30 for 296 (T Jax only threw 6/12 for 63 :shock:) simply amazing..
vs. SF - 9 for 13 (T Jax was 16/25 for 163) and this one, well terrible but probably not all his fault if he only got 9 carries




AP will eat us up in at least one game this next season if not both... if we are worried about Tjack, we have other problems then...

[Waldo]

He has faced 3 3-4 defenses in his career:
vs. Dallas - 12 for 67 yds (T Jax only threw 6/19 for 72 :shock:) over 5yrds a carry, hmm..
vs. SD - 30 for 296 (T Jax only threw 6/12 for 63 :shock:) simply amazing..
vs. SF - 9 for 13 (T Jax was 16/25 for 163) and this one, well terrible but probably not all his fault if he only got 9 carries




AP will eat us up in at least one game this next season if not both... if we are worried about Tjack, we have other problems then...

The game against Dallas was below his season average. Believe what you want that AD is this special 3-4 killing weapon, but is simply not true.

I fail to see how replacing a LB with a DT make a run defense worse? The league wide averages bear it out, 3-4 defenses on average are better at stopping the run than 4-3 defenses.

[HarveyWallbangers]

He has faced 3 3-4 defenses in his career:
vs. Dallas - 12 for 67 yds (T Jax only threw 6/19 for 72 :shock:) over 5yrds a carry, hmm..
vs. SD - 30 for 296 (T Jax only threw 6/12 for 63 :shock:) simply amazing..
vs. SF - 9 for 13 (T Jax was 16/25 for 163) and this one, well terrible but probably not all his fault if he only got 9 carries



Actually, it was 14 carries for 3 yards. And the Dallas game was average, for him. His career average is 5.2 yards/carry. His season average in 2007 was 5.6 yards/carry. He averaged 5.3 yards/carry. Like I said, it was an average game for him, but without a lot of carries.

Peterson will eat a lot of teams up, but I doubt it will have little to do with the scheme.

[Lurker64]

AP will eat us up in at least one game this next season if not both...

Now, you and I are very different, but I don't understand why anybody would say something like that. There's a long time between now and when Peterson will play against us. In the offseason he intends to put on weight, while maintaining his speed. It's not clear whether or not this will work.

Let's look at some ways in which Peterson might not eat us up this season.

1) Gaining weight in the offseason didn't work, he loses some of his speed and elusiveness.

2) Gaining weight in the offseason works, insofar as his speed is maintained, but carrying more weight on his frame makes him more likely to suffer minor injuries that allow him to play, but hurt his performance.

3) Perhaps the 3-4 defense Capers installs will have a definite "contain the run" focus and will be successful at containing Peterson, as San Francisco and Dallas's were.

4) Perhaps Peterson will get injured in a motorcycle accident (for example) this offseason and suffers a non-football injury, thus missing the entire season.

5) Perhaps Brad Childress will, in a characteristic display of questionable play calling plan on de-emphasizing the run to fake us out in our games next year, and he just doesn't give Peterson many touches.

6) Perhaps Peterson gets sick or injured (in the normal way that football players do, it can happen to anybody, look at Tom Brady this year) and will entirely miss one or both Packer games.

7) Perhaps Peterson will not correct the fumble habit he developed late in the last season, and will become a ball security risk leading Childress to hold back his touches. His ability to "eat us up" would at least be somewhat mitigated if he turns the ball over more often than he scores touchdowns.

8) Perhaps, now with more than twice as much tape on him than they had in the previous seasons, NFL defensive staffs will identify weaknesses in Peterson's game and/or the Vikings tendencies in using him, and neither Peterson nor the Vikings will be quick enough in correcting this. For example, Peterson's upright running style makes it difficult for him to avoid contact when the line of scrimmage is densely packed (and thus, excepting the difference in power, Chester Taylor is a better 3rd and 1 back). Plus, his blitz pickups are incredibly terrible, and we promise to do a lot of that this year. Some of this promises to make the Vikings use of Peterson somewhat predictable, if Peterson and Childress don't improve these aspects of their games.

9) Perhaps the Vikings quarterback woes will not only fail to improve, but actually somehow get worse allowing defenses to focus even more at stopping Peterson.

10) Both times the Vikings play us, Peterson comes off huge games with lots of touches on short weeks and just doesn't play as well as he could, since he had 35+ touches the previous week.

Now am I saying all of these 10 things are going to happen, or any of them, or most of them? No. But the probability of some of them mucking up his game is sufficiently high that I would never say "Peterson will do this" or "Peterson won't do this." Whether or not he "eats us up" will be decided on the football field, and nobody in the world is qualified to predict whether he will do so seven month before the season starts. So why even predict things like that?

[Patler]

AP will eat us up in at least one game this next season if not both... if we are worried about Tjack, we have other problems then...

Well, considering in the four games against the Packers so far in his career he has 72 carries for 452 yards, I guess I don't see that things will change much even if you are right. He had one game with 192 yards against the Packers last year, and in '07 112 yards on just 12 carries. Even his "bad" games against the Packers (11/45 and 19/103) were plenty good enough for production.

So just how is it that the Packers will be any worse off than the past 2 seasons?

[Pacopete4]

AP will eat us up in at least one game this next season if not both... if we are worried about Tjack, we have other problems then...

Well, considering in the four games against the Packers so far in his career he has 72 carries for 452 yards, I guess I don't see that things will change much even if you are right. He had one game with 192 yards against the Packers last year, and in '07 112 yards on just 12 carries. Even his "bad" games against the Packers (11/45 and 19/103) were plenty good enough for production.

So just how is it that the Packers will be any worse off than the past 2 seasons?


I think its gonna lead to more big games from AP with that occasional great game by the Packers D... thats all

[Fritz]

Can I collect on that PP vs. Waldo bet I made earlier????

[Harlan Huckleby]

I did'nt see Adrian Peterson's name on that list. My vote is for him.

:lol:

[Fritz]

Smack got smacked too. Yup.

[cpk1994]

The data indicates that the 3-4 defense is superior to the 4-3 for run defense, that AD is not some special 3-4 killer, but had one great statistical outlier of a game, and Tarvaris Jackson absolutely sucks against 3-4 defenses.Now let's be fait to Tarvarius. He sucks against all defenses, not just the 3-4. :lol:

[Waldo]

The data indicates that the 3-4 defense is superior to the 4-3 for run defense, that AD is not some special 3-4 killer, but had one great statistical outlier of a game, and Tarvaris Jackson absolutely sucks against 3-4 defenses.Now let's be fait to Tarvarius. He sucks against all defenses, not just the 3-4. :lol:

LOL, too true, though he does tend to especially suck agaisnt 3-4's.

[DonHutson]

Thompson and Hunter are the guys that should see enhanced playing time. I have more faith in Thompson to figure out what to do with it.

Hawk, Jenkins, and Harrell all have a chance to show great improvement, but in all cases you could argue it's not scheme related.

Hopefully the real answer is the Packers as a whole.

[Bossman641]

BTW,

I have a theory that Waldo and Patler are the same poster. Maybe it is the nerdy glasses.

Interesting, cause I have a theory that Waldo is Woodbuck reincarnated.

[Bossman641]

I said Hawk will benefit the most, but I also admit that is me HOPING that he will benefit the most. I also think Thompson will benefit from the change.

[Lurker64]

Interesting, cause I have a theory that Waldo is Woodbuck reincarnated.

Can't be Woody, he makes too much sense and doesn't RANDOMLY CAPITALIZE or underline or bold things in his posts.

[Bossman641]

Interesting, cause I have a theory that Waldo is Woodbuck reincarnated.

Can't be Woody, he makes too much sense and doesn't RANDOMLY CAPITALIZE or underline or bold things in his posts.

You just wait. That wily Canuck will slip up some time. :D

[Fritz]

Ain't no way it's Woody. Waldo is intelligent and articulate and does his homework.

It's like meeting Patler's long lost brother.

[Partial]

Waldo is a know-it-all who is too wordy. If you can't get your point across in a sentence or two, I'm not going to bother :D

We need to bring back Donkey Nutz. Knowledgeable and to the point.

[Waldo]

I love how me, not the topic of the thread, is the point of the discussion.

I have never been to this board before I signed up. But I do know my way around a message board talking Packer ball.

[MJZiggy]

I love how me, not the topic of the thread, is the point of the discussion.

I have never been to this board before I signed up. But I do know my way around a message board talking Packer ball.

It happens to everyone occasionally. It means the inmates have come to accept you. You're one of us now. The straitjackets are to your left being modeled by that blue mutt over there.

[swede]

I love how me, not the topic of the thread, is the point of the discussion.

I have never been to this board before I signed up. But I do know my way around a message board talking Packer ball.

It happens to everyone occasionally. It means the inmates have come to accept you. You're one of us now. The straitjackets are to your left being modeled by that blue mutt over there.

It's also a good sign if Partial mocks you. It tilts about 80% of the board your way.

[Bretsky]

I love how me, not the topic of the thread, is the point of the discussion.

I have never been to this board before I signed up. But I do know my way around a message board talking Packer ball.


Ya, let's knock this shit off of theorizing/ describing and comparing posters and stick to subject matter

This keeps up and we all know it'll end up turning for the worse somehow

[Bossman641]

Ain't no way it's Woody. Waldo is intelligent and articulate and does his homework.

It's like meeting Patler's long lost brother.

Yea I know. Waldo and Woodbuck are like complete opposites of the spectrum. I do miss Woodbuck though occassionally.

I appreciate Waldo's posts as well. While stats don't always tell the whole story they are a good jumping off point, and Waldo seems to definitely do is HW.

Plus I'm sure Patler enjoys having somebody around to pick up the slack from time to time. :D

[Zool]

I love how me, not the topic of the thread, is the point of the discussion.

I have never been to this board before I signed up. But I do know my way around a message board talking Packer ball.

It happens to everyone occasionally. It means the inmates have come to accept you. You're one of us now. The straitjackets are to your left being modeled by that blue mutt over there.

One of us
One of us
One of us
One of us
One of us

[SnakeLH2006]

I'll go out on a limb and say JH if he ever gets healthy, but my pick was for the Bishop baby! I'd love for this guy to get on the field at LB somewhere as he really seemed to come on in preseason and the few times he got to play in the regular season. Combine numbers aside, dude can can play and make plays (something sorely lacking last year from our front 7)...a playmaker. Let the kid play I say.

[SMACKTALKIE]

This has become a very entertaining thread. Personal ribbing plus team and positional shit as well.

Anyway.....I think that the Packer's run D will be similar, probably improved but by not much. I think moving the best D lineman from a papaer thin D line to LB is a risky move. I also feel that given Hawk's struggles to adjust to MLB, (despite the position's complexities) his adjustment to a 3-4 should be concerning as well.

I feel that the players who will benefit from the 3-4 right away will be the secondary because of the many different blitz and rush options the 3-4 gives a defense.

It may take a couple more free agent periods and drafts to build the personelle adequate to execute the 3-4 to its full potential.

[Iron Mike]

I love how me, not the topic of the thread, is the point of the discussion.

I have never been to this board before I signed up. But I do know my way around a message board talking Packer ball.

It happens to everyone occasionally. It means the inmates have come to accept you. You're one of us now. The straitjackets are to your left being modeled by that blue mutt over there.

One of us
One of us
One of us
One of us
One of us

http://www.olgabaclanova.com/picture_gallery/movies/freaks/104_gooble_gobble_b_6.jpg

[Waldo]

This has become a very entertaining thread. Personal ribbing plus team and positional shit as well.

Anyway.....I think that the Packer's run D will be similar, probably improved but by not much. I think moving the best D lineman from a papaer thin D line to LB is a risky move. I also feel that given Hawk's struggles to adjust to MLB, (despite the position's complexities) his adjustment to a 3-4 should be concerning as well.

I feel that the players who will benefit from the 3-4 right away will be the secondary because of the many different blitz and rush options the 3-4 gives a defense.

It may take a couple more free agent periods and drafts to build the personelle adequate to execute the 3-4 to its full potential.

Last offseason, at least where I was, there was a song that echoed throughout the NFL, even among many Packer fans, that we were going to be on a predictable trajectory, Aaron was a good QB with lots of potential, but would struggle at first before finding his way later, that Brett gave us the best chance to win in '08, that Aaron would run a watered down offense until he had the experience to run something more complex. Some Packer fans were true believers in ARod, but you didn't see it much outside of "the homers". Well the homers were right, Aaron didn't struggle coming out of the gate at all, if anything the playbook expanded with Aaron under center, not contracted. MM called plays for Aaron that he did not for Brett, including the dynamic pocket and compound routes where the ball had to be thrown over the head of a DB.

There are not a lot of case studies of teams transitioning to a 3-4 from a 4-3, and each case is unique.

The Jets made their change overnight when Mangini took over for Herm. Herm was more of a Tampa-2 disciple than anything. In 2005, Herm's final year, they ranked 23rd overall in scoring defense. In Mangini's first season, they ranked 6th in scoring defense. The transition was made on a mediocre at best undersized defense. Their NT was undersized Dewayne Robertson (6-1, 308), backed up by the prototypical but raw 2nd year player Sione Pouha (6-3 325) who was drafted in the 3rd round the previous year. They struggled to stop the run, but finished with a solid overall defensive ranking. They did not invest a draft pick in their defense until the 3rd round the year they made the switch.

Bill Parcells took over the undersized terrible Cowboys defense in 2003, but didn't make the switch from the 4-3 to 3-4 base until 2005. In 2004 they finished 27th in scoring defense. In 2005 they finished 12th in scoring defense. They already had veteran DT La'Roi Glover on the roster, acquired backup NT Jason Ferguson in FA and drafted Jay Ratliff in the 7th round the year they made the switch. They drafted their pass rusher (Ware) in the first round the year they made the switch.

The Chargers made a quick transition as well. In 2003, the final year in a 4-3 base, they finished a god awful 31st in scoring defense. Wade ran a 4-3 in 2003, his first year, making the switch in 2004. 2004 saw dramatic improvement and the team finished 11th in scoring defense. They waited until the 2nd year in the scheme (2005) to draft Merriman, concentrating first on the line in 2004 in the 2nd and 3rd rounds the year they made the switch. The NT (Jamal Williams) was already on the team and broke into the elite ranks of DT's his first year as a 3-4 NT in his 7th year in the league.

The Dolphins switched from a 4-3 base to a hybrid in 2005. The only real difference from a 4-3 was a larger DE on one end and a Joker DE (Taylor) that played hand down or up or down. They didn't switch to a true 3-4 base until 2008 but had been moving that direction since 2005. In 2008 they finished #9 in scoring defense, after finishing #30 in 2007. They brought NT Jason Ferguson in from Dallas to facilitate the switch.

The Cardinals have been in the process of switching from a 4-3 to a 3-4 since 2007 running a hybrid defense. NT Gabe Watson, drafted in 2006 in the 4th round, has not yet developed as hoped into a starting NT.

The 49ers have been trying to implement the 3-4 since 2005, but didn't dedicate to a true 3-4 base until Nolan was fired and Singletary elevated to HC. The defense saw dramatic improvement after moving away from the hybrid big nickel look that they typically ran. They have struggled to find a NT, using later draft picks that haven't panned out as hoped and bringing in mid tier FA NT Aubrayo Franklin in 2007.

The Patriots has played primarily the 4-3 but used occasional 3-4 looks from the time Bill Bellicheck was hired, but didn't really transition to a 3-4 base until the 2003 season. In 2002 they finished 17th in scoring defense, improving to #1 in 2003. They drafted their NT of the future, Vince Wilfork, in the first round of the 2004 draft. All 3 starting D lineman were drafted in the first round. They won the superbowl the year they made the switch.

The Browns made the switch from a 4-3 to a 3-4 in 2005 despite grossly inadequate personnel. They finished 11th in scoring defense in 2005 after finishing 24th in 2004.

The Ravens switched to a 3-4 in 2002 under Nolan after losing several players following the 2001 season. They finished #4 in scoring defense in 2001 and #19 in 2002. Since then they've run a hybrid switching into a 3-4 or 4-3 at will. They drafted their NT of the future, Haloti Ngata in the 1st round of the 2006 draft.

The other team that runs a 3-4 (or hybrid), Pittsburgh, has run it seemingly forever.

It doesn't appear that teams "struggle" when they switch from a 4-3 to a 3-4, unless they are coached by Mike Nolan, though some teams go through a hybrid period or wait until the personnel are in place.

We are definitely in striking distance with our current roster of having the right people in place. And we have the most important piece, a NT, he may not be elite, but he's a lot better than the NT's many teams had the year they made the 4-3 to 3-4 transition. And we are slotted well in the draft to grab an elite caliber NT.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I also feel that given Hawk's struggles to adjust to MLB, (despite the position's complexities) his adjustment to a 3-4 should be concerning as well.

I think Hawk's struggles had more to do with his two injuries that affected him all year more than anything else. He was a solid LB (not elite, but above average) his first two years. The guy was injured and he's a warrior. He tried to battle through them. I don't know any other reason why he would have gotten worse in his third year. Of course, the DL didn't help, but he wasn't able to do things that he did in his first two years. It happens to a lot of players. Donald Driver had a miserable year the year he landed on his neck. Even the Vikings Kevin Williams had this happen. He was awesome his first two years. He was injured his third year and was no more than average.

[vince]

Assuming he's on our roster, whoever ends up gettign the most time at OLB opposite Kampman is the guy who benefits the most. That's who will get the greatest opportunity to make plays coming from a position in which he wasn't given the same opportunities to do so last year. It sounds like it could be Poppinga (the current front-runner I'd say), Chillar, Thompson, Hunter. Or it could be a new guy...

[Harlan Huckleby]

I love how me, not the topic of the thread, is the point of the discussion.

I have never been to this board before I signed up. But I do know my way around a message board talking Packer ball.


Ya, let's knock this shit off of theorizing/ describing and comparing posters and stick to subject matter

This keeps up and we all know it'll end up turning for the worse somehow

My other theory is that Bretsky and Wist are the same person.

[gex]

I think Kampman is gonna absorb the playbook quickly and be an absolute beast. you heard it here first.