Free Agents List with Comments

[rbaloha1]

http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20090212/?sub_id=xD87fQsn5lsg&folio=CGI

Which players should the Packers legitimately pursue?

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

?

[HarveyWallbangers]

If you go to page 10, you will see the list.

[Waldo]

1a) Igor Olshansky (DE)
or
1b) Chris Canty (DE)

2) Jon Stinchcomb (RT)
or
2b) Jason Brown (C/G)

3a) Gerald Sensebaugh (SS)
or
3b) Sean Smith (SS)
or
3c) Jermaine Phillips (SS)

[KYPack]

Could somebody purloin the list and post it?

I can't get to pp 1.

[HarveyWallbangers]

TE
Owen Daniels would be nice, but I believe he's only a restricted FA. Possibly take a flier on L.J. Smith.

OL
Jordan Gross is a pipedream. I think the Panthers will do everything they can to keep him.

DE
Chris Canty or Igor Olshansky would be nice.

DT
I'm not high on Tank Johnson, but there aren't many good 3-4 NTs available.

LB
Lots of good LBs available (Lewis, Scott, Suggs, Boley, Dansby, Davis)

S
Sean Jones, James Butler, James Sanders, Jermaine Phillips, Dawan Landry

[Zool]

http://sportingnewstoday-cdn.texterity.com/tcprojects/sportingnewstoday/sportingnewstoday/inbox/59267/imgpages/115/snt20090212_0009_fg.png

[Waldo]

I'm not sure why they didn't list Jason Brown, G/C for the Raven on there, he's a solid young lineman that will be tough for them to keep in Baltimore given the LB situation. Same with Gerald Sensebaugh, he's probably the most athletic SS in the NFL and is young, finally cracking the starting lineup for good in '08 and playing great (70 tkl, 8 PDs, 4 ints). He runs a legit 4.45 and holds the combine record for highest vert for a DB, and is only 25 (yet a UFA).

Stinchcomb has been starting at RT 3 years for the Saints (he's 29). Last year Gross (LT) was penalized 10 times and gave up 3 sacks. Jon was penalized 3 times and gave up 1.5 sacks as a RT. Kamp's worst game last year was against him, 1 assist, no sacks. The Saints are going to have a hard time keeping him because of their $$ situation.

[rbaloha1]

1a) Igor Olshansky (DE)
or
1b) Chris Canty (DE)

2) Jon Stinchcomb (RT)
or
2b) Jason Brown (C/G)

3a) Gerald Sensebaugh (SS)
or
3b) Sean Smith (SS)
or
3c) Jermaine Phillips (SS)

Nice List. The 2 DEs are instant starters and why potentially trading Jenkins is preferable. Both des have played in the 3-4 scheme. What about Tank Johnson as nt?

Stinchcomb is also a good pickup given Tausher's status. What about Matt Birk?

Bigby and Rosuse may not fit in the system. Good fa selection of solid all around safeties.

Expect a fairly significant defensive roster turnover after free agency and draft. Bubble players are probably nervous.

[Lurker64]

Nice List. The 2 DEs are instant starters and why potentially trading Jenkins is preferable. Both des have played in the 3-4 scheme. What about Tank Johnson as nt?

Jenkins will be just fine in the 3-4, considering 3-4 DE will not differ much from his initial position of 4-3 UT, very much. I don't think anybody is suggesting we sign both Olshansky and Canty, but signing one of the two would be good because we have a need at DE. We're unlikely to be able to sign both, as we're probably not the only team looking for a 3-4 DE these days.

[Waldo]

I'm not too high on Birk since he's old and declining. He's more of a guy that you sign because of what he has done moreso than what he will do. I've tried to weed through for the value guys that are in there prime (with a few years left in their prime) or young guys on the rise that are under the radar. Vernon Carey, RT for the Dolphins (6-5, 350) is another solid young (27) RT that might hit the market that would be a good replacement/upgrade (at this point) over Tausher.

[rbaloha1]

Nice List. The 2 DEs are instant starters and why potentially trading Jenkins is preferable. Both des have played in the 3-4 scheme. What about Tank Johnson as nt?

Jenkins will be just fine in the 3-4, considering 3-4 DE will not differ much from his initial position of 4-3 UT, very much. I don't think anybody is suggesting we sign both Olshansky and Canty, but signing one of the two would be good because we have a need at DE. We're unlikely to be able to sign both, as we're probably not the only team looking for a 3-4 DE these days.

Not suggesting both be signed. Prefer a proven commodity over a player returning from injury and unproven in the 3-4.

One needs to be signed. Either a high draft pick, Jolly or Harrell should start at the other de. Again trade Jenkins.

[Lurker64]

Not suggesting both be signed. Prefer a proven commodity over a player returning from injury and unproven in the 3-4.

One needs to be signed. Either a high draft pick, Jolly or Harrell should start at the other de. Again trade Jenkins.

Okay, putting aside the fact that Jenkins is the one player on this defense who is actually perfectly suited to the new position he's going to be playing, and is a better fit for that position than anybody else is for the new defense, I'd like to point out that "trading a guy when he's coming off an injury" is the dumbest possible time to trade somebody.

I mean, all the other teams are going to know the player is coming off an injury, and they're going to have the same doubts about his recovery you do. You're advocating the equivalent of "Sell low, buy high" here.

If we end up having too many DEs through some fluke, you trade or fail to resign one of them after this season. There's no way trading Jenkins this year makes any sense at all.

[Waldo]

Jenkins>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jolly and Harrell right now. We want to acquire better players, not get rid of our good ones and keep the mediocre ones. Jolly is the defensive lineman most likely to be traded.

[rbaloha1]

Jenkins>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jolly and Harrell right now. We want to acquire better players, not get rid of our good ones and keep the mediocre ones. Jolly is the defensive lineman most likely to be traded.

How much trade value does Jolly have given the legal issues?

[HarveyWallbangers]

How much trade value does Jolly have given the legal issues?

He'd have little value without the legal issues.

[rbaloha1]

How much trade value does Jolly have given the legal issues?

He'd have little value without the legal issues.

Exactly. Jenkins has more trade value.

[Lurker64]

Exactly. Jenkins has more trade value.

Why are you in such a hurry to get rid of him? He's the best DE on the team right now and no matter who we sign, we're going to need backups. Plus, his trade value is the lowest it will be right now, I doubt we could get a 4th round pick for him. Knowing Thompson it's not as though we actually need to trade decent starters for late round picks.

[Waldo]

He also has a lot more value on the field.

[rbaloha1]

Exactly. Jenkins has more trade value.

Why are you in such a hurry to get rid of him? He's the best DE on the team right now and no matter who we sign, we're going to need backups. Plus, his trade value is the lowest it will be right now, I doubt we could get a 4th round pick for him. Knowing Thompson it's not as though we actually need to trade decent starters for late round picks.

Not in hurry. Only consider trading if one of the fa des is signed or a draft pick/Harrell/Jolly shows starting capabilities.

Unfortunately Jenkins is akin to a light heavy weight trying to move up to the heavy weight class. Is Jenkins capable of playing olb.

Recall Jenkins was unexcited about the 3-4 switch. MM is attempting to "sell" Jenkins on the scheme. Recall Corey Williams comments to Jenkins about the 3-4. As a matter of fact Williams is probably a better fit for the 3-4 than Jenkins.

[steve823]

Exactly. Jenkins has more trade value.

Why are you in such a hurry to get rid of him? He's the best DE on the team right now and no matter who we sign, we're going to need backups. Plus, his trade value is the lowest it will be right now, I doubt we could get a 4th round pick for him. Knowing Thompson it's not as though we actually need to trade decent starters for late round picks.

Not in hurry. Only consider trading if one of the fa des is signed or a draft pick/Harrell/Jolly shows starting capabilities.

Unfortunately Jenkins is akin to a light heavy weight trying to move up to the heavy weight class. Is Jenkins capable of playing olb.

Recall Jenkins was unexcited about the 3-4 switch. MM is attempting to "sell" Jenkins on the scheme. Recall Corey Williams comments to Jenkins about the 3-4. As a matter of fact Williams is probably a better fit for the 3-4 than Jenkins.

You have no idea what your talking about. Trade jenkins? NO. Move Jenkins to olb. NO. Hes our best D-linmen as of now.

[Guiness]

Garcia is an interesting name on that list. Not to us, of course, but where will that journeyman land next? The new coach in TB likely won't want him, because he should have a couple years anyways, so he'll prefer to bring along his own guy. And it sure seems he's got a bit left.

He could well land in our division wearing purple. He'd be a fit for the Bears as well, but they're too stupid to realize Orton is not 'it'.

Two high profile names to add to the list - Jax cut Joey Porter and Drayton Florence. Again, neither are guy's we'd be interested in. Question is, will anyone be interested in Porter?

[Zool]

Jerry Porter or Joey Porter?

[Fritz]

http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20090212/?sub_id=xD87fQsn5lsg&folio=CGI

Which players should the Packers legitimately pursue?

I would like to know which players people think the Packers should illegitimately pursue.

[Guiness]

Jerry Porter or Joey Porter?

Jax WR. Ya, Jerry.

[Lurker64]

Unfortunately Jenkins is akin to a light heavy weight trying to move up to the heavy weight class. Is Jenkins capable of playing olb.

Okay, let's do a little comparison here. We have three players:

Player A is 6'6" and 309 pounds
Player B is 6'2" and 304 pounds
Player C is 6'7" and 306 pounds.

Do any of these players seem "akin to a lightweight" to be playing 3-4 DE, a position roughly comparable to 4-3 UT? Certainly, one is shorter than the other two, but the shorter one is likely more densely built and would be difficult to move. Do you really believe that any of these players are too small to play inside?

Player A is Olshansky, Player B is Jenkins, Player C is Canty. (For comparison purposes, both Justin Harrell and Corey Williams are 6'4" 320)

[mission]

Jenkins ain't gonna get you anything higher than a 5th or 6th ... maybe a 7th considering the injury factor

Are you going to get anything close to Jenkins in the 5th round or higher? Maybe in 3 years but even that's a stretch.

Any trades on the defensive line just aren't gonna add up right now.

[red]

well first, you just don't get rid of jenkins, he is exactly the perfect fit for a 3-4 DE. it would be insane to trade him

second, i would really like to see us go after canty. we need depth at DE and it would be nice if we filled that depth with a starter and let the other guys back him up

third. for the peeps that are still in love with haynesworth. he is a complete ass and a total turd that will blow up in the face of whatever team decides to make him the highest paid defensive player in the nfl. want proof? pft is reporting that a couple months ago he ran someone of the road while going around 100 mph, he did this while already on probation for going over 100. the guys just a time bomb

[Lurker64]

second, i would really like to see us go after canty. we need depth at DE and it would be nice if we filled that depth with a starter and let the other guys back him up

I'm happy with landing either Olshansky or Canty, but is the decision of "Canty or Olshansky?" really clear cut.

If everything else is equal, I'd think the guy from Dnipropetrovsk might be happier in Green Bay than the guy from the Bronx.

[red]

i would honestly be happy with either one

both would be an big improvement over whoever we currently have to play that other DE spot

[Waldo]

second, i would really like to see us go after canty. we need depth at DE and it would be nice if we filled that depth with a starter and let the other guys back him up

I'm happy with landing either Olshansky or Canty, but is the decision of "Canty or Olshansky?" really clear cut.

If everything else is equal, I'd think the guy from Dnipropetrovsk might be happier in Green Bay than the guy from the Bronx.

Canty might be a little better player, but I don't think the difference is that great between the two, even though the FA $$ will say otherwise. I see GB as a great fit for him, his personality seems to be in line with the guys on our D.

Igor is definitely more of a 3-4 guy than 4-3. Of the 3-4 teams:
Dallas - Possibly, though cap space is a problem in big D
Miami - They would probably bring in Canty (who wants to play there)
Baltimore - Broke
Pittsburgh - They don't sign FA's, no need
NE - No need
Jets - Broke
Cleveland - Just went on DL spending spree last year
Broncos - Chargers divisional rival, Igor has no love for the horses
SF - Bigger needs than DE, especially on offense
SD - not pursuing him
Ari - possible, though $$ is possibly an issue

I just don't see a huge amount of competition for his services, whereas he makes tons of sense to bring in to GB. Possibly the Cowboys, Browns, SF, Ari, Miami, but with each situation in mind, plus Canty on the market, I've gotta think that GB is his most likely landing spot for him.

http://www.pulsedenergytech.com/images/igor_1.jpg

[rbaloha1]

Exactly. Jenkins has more trade value.

Why are you in such a hurry to get rid of him? He's the best DE on the team right now and no matter who we sign, we're going to need backups. Plus, his trade value is the lowest it will be right now, I doubt we could get a 4th round pick for him. Knowing Thompson it's not as though we actually need to trade decent starters for late round picks.

Not in hurry. Only consider trading if one of the fa des is signed or a draft pick/Harrell/Jolly shows starting capabilities.

Unfortunately Jenkins is akin to a light heavy weight trying to move up to the heavy weight class. Is Jenkins capable of playing olb.

Recall Jenkins was unexcited about the 3-4 switch. MM is attempting to "sell" Jenkins on the scheme. Recall Corey Williams comments to Jenkins about the 3-4. As a matter of fact Williams is probably a better fit for the 3-4 than Jenkins.

You have no idea what your talking about. Trade jenkins? NO. Move Jenkins to olb. NO. Hes our best D-linmen as of now.

Okay. Please provide an analysis of Jenkins playing a 3-4 end lined up somewhere between the guard and tackle in a one or two gap scheme versus lining up on the left shoulder of the left tackle in a 4-3 scheme.

Recall Jenkins joined the Packers as a free agent undersized defensive tackle with excellent pass rushing ability. Jenkins was moved to de to size and KGB's inability to play the run consistently. The 3-4 olb lines up where the 4-3 de lines up. But you said Jenkins can not play olb.

Please resolve. Thank you.

[red]

are we all talking about the same jenkins here?

the 305 pound run stuffing DE, the jenkings that moved from DT to DE to stuff the run?

CULLEN jenkins?

you want him to play OLB? are you fucking kidding us?

jenkins id the one guy that this switch fits perfectly, its like the staff saw the switch coming a few years ago and wanted cullen to get a head start. he is the one player that i have no questions about in the 3-4 switch.

3-4 DE is exactly what god put him on this earth to play

and excellent pass rushing skills is a tad bit of a stretch, he had a decent pass rush for a DT. 17.5 sacks in 66 games over 5 years is far from excellent

[mission]

3-4 DE is exactly what god put him on this earth to play

Exactly why trade suggestions are way outta control!

[rbaloha1]

are we all talking about the same jenkins here?

the 305 pound run stuffing DE, the jenkings that moved from DT to DE to stuff the run?

CULLEN jenkins?

you want him to play OLB? are you fucking kidding us?

jenkins id the one guy that this switch fits perfectly, its like the staff saw the switch coming a few years ago and wanted cullen to get a head start. he is the one player that i have no questions about in the 3-4 switch.

3-4 DE is exactly what god put him on this earth to play

Where did I say Cullen is a 3-4 olb? The point is Cullen is a 4-3 de.

Failed to see any analysis of what makes Cullen a 3-4 de other than God says so.

[red]

are we all talking about the same jenkins here?

the 305 pound run stuffing DE, the jenkings that moved from DT to DE to stuff the run?

CULLEN jenkins?

you want him to play OLB? are you fucking kidding us?

jenkins id the one guy that this switch fits perfectly, its like the staff saw the switch coming a few years ago and wanted cullen to get a head start. he is the one player that i have no questions about in the 3-4 switch.

3-4 DE is exactly what god put him on this earth to play

Where did I say Cullen is a 3-4 olb? The point is Cullen is a 4-3 de.

Failed to see any analysis of what makes Cullen a 3-4 de other than God says so.

and i would agrue jenkins is only half of a good 4-3 de. all he is, is a run stuffer. he played the ruching downs, kgb was the pass rusher.

i would argue he is a 4-3 dt forced to play DE because we had no other decent option. or a 3-4 DE that has been playing in the wrong system

i took this line. it made it seem like you were trying to make the jump


The 3-4 olb lines up where the 4-3 de lines up. But you said Jenkins can not play olb.

i think you're really way off on this one, to tell the truth. if it wasn't for jenkins we mihgt not even be making the change to 3-4. he is a big part of the puzzle that was already in place

[Lurker64]

Where did I say Cullen is a 3-4 olb? The point is Cullen is a 4-3 de.

No. Cullen Jenkins is a 4-3 defensive tackle (specifically an under-tackle) who has the quickness to play outside as a run-stopping specialist at defensive end in the 4-3 defense. That's precisely the sort of player you want at a 3-4 DE.

[texaspackerbacker]

We really don't have hardly any significant needs. RT might be the exception, and Stinchcomb might be a worthwhile investment. I'd be well satisfied, though, to see the Packers go into the season with what we have: Spitz at Center, Colledge and Sitton at the Guards, Clifton one last hurrah at LT and maybe Giacomeini at RT.

I also would not be opposed to the Packers picking up a 3-4 DE--I'd put Canty at the top of the list. Just the same, we will be fine without outside help also.

Beyond that, I really don't see anybody on that list that I would want the Packers to go after.

[rbaloha1]

Where did I say Cullen is a 3-4 olb? The point is Cullen is a 4-3 de.

No. Cullen Jenkins is a 4-3 defensive tackle (specifically an under-tackle) who has the quickness to play outside as a run-stopping specialist at defensive end in the 4-3 defense. That's precisely the sort of player you want at a 3-4 DE.

The point is Cullen is most effective in space. Cullen is physically not like brother Kris -- physically equipped to play double teams inm traffic.

Again Cullen is an effective run stuffer and pass rusher playing in space playing outside the offensive tackle. Expecting Cullen to consistently take on multiple blockers in line traffic is a stretch imo.

[Waldo]

Where did I say Cullen is a 3-4 olb? The point is Cullen is a 4-3 de.

No. Cullen Jenkins is a 4-3 defensive tackle (specifically an under-tackle) who has the quickness to play outside as a run-stopping specialist at defensive end in the 4-3 defense. That's precisely the sort of player you want at a 3-4 DE.

The point is Cullen is most effective in space. Cullen is physically not like brother Kris -- physically equipped to play double teams inm traffic.

Again Cullen is an effective run stuffer and pass rusher playing in space playing outside the offensive tackle. Expecting Cullen to consistently take on multiple blockers in line traffic is a stretch imo.

1 gap 5 technique DE's do not take on multiple blockers, otherwise the OLB has an unblocked run to either the QB or back.

4-3 DE's do not play in space. Cullen is equally as effective as a 3 tech DT as at RDE. 5 tech is a blend of those two positions, and he will have a clear gap between him and the QB (B gap) that a blocker will have to step into, as opposed to him having to go around someone.

[Lurker64]

The point is Cullen is most effective in space. Cullen is physically not like brother Kris -- physically equipped to play double teams inm traffic.

Again Cullen is an effective run stuffer and pass rusher playing in space playing outside the offensive tackle. Expecting Cullen to consistently take on multiple blockers in line traffic is a stretch imo.

I'm not sure you've ever seen Cullen Jenkins. He's not on the end because he's good in space. In the Bates defense he was hardly ever asked to play in space. He was a tackle you could move outside because he was very quick off the snap.

Comparing him to Kris is not accurate, because Kris is a NT and not a 3-4 DE. You don't expect your 3-4 DEs to be able to play NT, it's a fundamentally different position.

Moreover, considering that the Capers 3-4 is a one-gap system, he will not be expected to face consistent double teams. If they elect to double team him, frequently, that will not be a problem as that will result in one or more rushers being unblocked. The point of the Capers 3-4 is to confuse blocking systems with switches, slants, gap charges, and loops to create confusion in blocking assignments.

Moreover, Jenkins was never a particularly good pass-rusher from the outside. The bulk of his sacks over his career were when he was playing as a defensive tackle. In 2004, 2005, and 2006 when he was a DT he recorded 4.5, 3.0, and 6.5 sacks. In 2007 when he was moved to DE he recorded 1 sack and in 2008 at DE he recorded 2.5 sacks. I don't know where you get this "effective at playing in space" line. He was an effective pass rusher inside, and a good run-stopper outside. This is why 3-4 DE is such a perfect position for him since "inside pass rush" and "outside run stopping" are precisely his responsibilities in the scheme.

[rbaloha1]

Lots of mumble jumble terminology. (sorry) Cullen was initially effective as a situational pass rushing specialist in the 4-3 scheme.

KGB's ineffectiveness prompted Cullen inserted into the lineup against the 49ers in the 06 season after Frank Gore had a big run. Cullen performed well and was rewarded with a large contract.

Space means as a de in the 4-3 no player is to Cullen's right side.

In the 3-4 Cullen will continually be surrounded in traffic (no space). IMO not Cullen strength. The referral to his brother is showing Cullen may not be physically equipped to handle the continual pounding inside.

Recall Chewy predicted Kampy was not a good fit at olb due Kampy's great ability play in space as a 4-3 end.

[KYPack]

The point is Cullen is most effective in space. Cullen is physically not like brother Kris -- physically equipped to play double teams inm traffic.

Again Cullen is an effective run stuffer and pass rusher playing in space playing outside the offensive tackle. Expecting Cullen to consistently take on multiple blockers in line traffic is a stretch imo.

I'm not sure you've ever seen Cullen Jenkins. He's not on the end because he's good in space. In the Bates defense he was hardly ever asked to play in space. He was a tackle you could move outside because he was very quick off the snap.

Comparing him to Kris is not accurate, because Kris is a NT and not a 3-4 DE. You don't expect your 3-4 DEs to be able to play NT, it's a fundamentally different position.

Moreover, considering that the Capers 3-4 is a one-gap system, he will not be expected to face consistent double teams. If they elect to double team him, frequently, that will not be a problem as that will result in one or more rushers being unblocked. The point of the Capers 3-4 is to confuse blocking systems with switches, slants, gap charges, and loops to create confusion in blocking assignments.

Moreover, Jenkins was never a particularly good pass-rusher from the outside. The bulk of his sacks over his career were when he was playing as a defensive tackle. In 2004, 2005, and 2006 when he was a DT he recorded 4.5, 3.0, and 6.5 sacks. In 2007 when he was moved to DE he recorded 1 sack and in 2008 at DE he recorded 2.5 sacks. I don't know where you get this "effective at playing in space" line. He was an effective pass rusher inside, and a good run-stopper outside. This is why 3-4 DE is such a perfect position for him since "inside pass rush" and "outside run stopping" are precisely his responsibilities in the scheme.

Lurk, where did you get the data that listed the player's production at the respective position's? That's good stuff.

I also would like to know how you could figure out which teams played a 3-4 at a particular time. I've wondered how teams fared in their first season with the 3-4.

I'd just like to read somebody else's work, I don't feel like doing all that shit myself! (insert wimpy smiley here)

[sheepshead]

Partial says we need a quarterback.

[Waldo]

I also would like to know how you could figure out which teams played a 3-4 at a particular time. I've wondered how teams fared in their first season with the 3-4.

I'd just like to read somebody else's work, I don't feel like doing all that shit myself! (insert wimpy smiley here)

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?t=16743&start=40

I did that the other day in that thread for all of the current 3-4 and hybrid teams.

I was actually pretty stunned. Unless coached by Mike Nolan, all of them improved significantly their first year running a 3-4 over the previous year as a 4-3 or hybrid.

[KYPack]

I also would like to know how you could figure out which teams played a 3-4 at a particular time. I've wondered how teams fared in their first season with the 3-4.

I'd just like to read somebody else's work, I don't feel like doing all that shit myself! (insert wimpy smiley here)

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?t=16743&start=40

I did that the other day in that thread for all of the current 3-4 and hybrid teams.

I was actually pretty stunned. Unless coached by Mike Nolan, all of them improved significantly their first year running a 3-4 over the previous year as a 4-3 or hybrid.

Yeah, that was some good stuff.

I was gonna make a reply, yelling at Partial for saying your replies were too "wordy".

Then I went and yelled at him in the QB thread.

How'd you figure which team was running the 3-4?

Teams with NT's on their roster?

[ND72]

Personally, I think we have to make a run at a OLB, DE, & DT, besides drafting all 3 areas, & another CB, but I'd rather draft a CB/S.

[rbaloha1]

Personally, I think we have to make a run at a OLB, DE, & DT, besides drafting all 3 areas, & another CB, but I'd rather draft a CB/S.

Agreed. Defense, Defense, Defense.

[Waldo]

Well I know off the top of my head which teams run which base D in the NFL right now and which of the variants they run. That was my starting point, so I limited the scope to only current 3-4 teams and hybrid teams. Figuring out when the switch was made was just a matter of asking, google has all the answers if you know how to ask the question. Just like the press for the Packers right now, there are loads of old articles out there about the move to the 3-4 and what it means for each team. I also cross checked with historical depth charts to make sure. I used NFL.com for all the stats since their historical record goes back to the early 90's.

The one defense to really keep in mind if we don't full bore convert overnight is Miami's D. When they made the switch from the base 4-3 of Bates and began moving toward the 3-4, they ran a hybrid and Capers was part of the staff. He was under a defensive HC, so I'm not sure how much overall say he had in the base scheme, I get the sense in GB that he has 100% free reign. When he took over in Jax they had a similar situation and he went straight from the 4-3 to the 3-4 with no hybrid period (I don't see a lot of worth to the hybrid period, the results of an overnight switch speak for themselves, though some coaches are prudent and wait until they have most/all of the pieces lined up, I think we have enough of the important ones that an overnight switch is fine).

Miami's hybrid was the Joker DE type. If we have a hybrid period, IMO that is what we'll run. Kamp is comfortable on the left, whereas Taylor spent time on the right, so it'd be a mirror image. To do so they'd reverse the alignment of the DT's, with Pickett playing 1-tech in the right A gap and Jolly (or other) playing 3-tech outside shade over the RG, a reverse of what we ran under Sanders. Jenkins' alignment would be moved inwards slightly, back to normal DE alignment as opposed to the wide Bates thing, with an outside shade of the LT. Kamp then would be the Joker DE. Free to play hands up or down and free to pick his launch point.

The line could then shift in-stance into a true 3-4 alignment by stepping one half gap to the defensive left, with the SLB walking up to the line in OLB alignment. Pops already has DE and SLB experience so it is no stretch for him. Really the only difference is Kamp's freedom and the reversed interior, a pretty negligible difference. The other switch that may occur is Hawk moving to 4-3 mike and Barnett to 4-3 will. When executing the hybrid switch, Hawk then becomes the jack and Barnett the mike without switching location. If a pass rusher is drafted in this scenario (likely) he would replace Poppinga at 4-3 SLB (or sub in for on the job training), similar to the SLB's that the NYG and Eagles choose. With these alignment changes (which really are pretty minor), the defensive front could change between a 4-3 and 3-4 front at will, even in-stance, which is the type of hybrid that Miami ran under Capers (but a 100% mirror image of it). Doing so if they want to run a 3-4, over time they'll line up in the 3-4 alignment more than the 4-3 and the switch will be done.

A lot of people are far too worried about this switch, it really is a pretty smooth transition done the way that Capers did it in Miami, though they never did transition fully to a true 3-4, they stayed in the hybrid stage for 3 years until Parcells came in and finished the transition. Is it really a big deal if Pickett and Jolly switch sides (but keep the same job), Kamp has freedom of stance and can move around as he sees fit, Barnett and Hawk change places, and the SLB does more rushing and less covering? There really isn't much more too it than that. A half gap step to the left by the big boys up front and we are in a true 3-4.

[Packnut]

Can't remember the last time so many quality players were available. It would make no sense to give Capers all that money and not give him something to work with.

Thompson by all accounts is feeling a moderate degree of heat so I would expect him to go after a few guys on the defensive side. That would make everyone happy. We have huge need's at LB and DE so those are the two positions that common sense says should be targeted.

[Zool]

Can't remember the last time so many quality players were available. It would make no sense to give Capers all that money and not give him something to work with.

Thompson by all accounts is feeling a moderate degree of heat so I would expect him to go after a few guys on the defensive side. That would make everyone happy. We have huge need's at LB and DE so those are the two positions that common sense says should be targeted.

I wonder how much a players decision is based on his respect level for his position coach/coordinator. It would seem like Capers is pretty well liked and respected around the league. Maybe that will help sway a guy or 2 our way?

[rbaloha1]

Can't remember the last time so many quality players were available. It would make no sense to give Capers all that money and not give him something to work with.

Thompson by all accounts is feeling a moderate degree of heat so I would expect him to go after a few guys on the defensive side. That would make everyone happy. We have huge need's at LB and DE so those are the two positions that common sense says should be targeted.

I wonder how much a players decision is based on his respect level for his position coach/coordinator. It would seem like Capers is pretty well liked and respected around the league. Maybe that will help sway a guy or 2 our way?

Absolutely. Its probably not a reach stating free agents with prior 3-4 experience respect Capers.

Trust TT acquires the proper players to make the scheme work.

[sharpe1027]

If a pass rusher is drafted in this scenario (likely) he would replace Poppinga at 4-3 SLB (or sub in for on the job training), similar to the SLB's that the NYG and Eagles choose.

Or simply put J. Thompson opposite Kampman. They could then shift the line either way with JT or AK taking the open DL spot...or neither of them when they want to run the 3-4. Maybe that would be too complicated, but it sounds decent on paper.

[vince]

1. Hopefully either Clifton has some legs left or Tauscher is re-signed. I'm not convinced that it's not in our best interests to go after someone (1 guy with Colledge moving to Tackle) younger than both of those guys in FA.

2. Then Olshansky or Canty in FA.

3. Re-up these existing guys: Kampman, Chillar, Pickett, Collins, Colledge, Jennings, Spitz, Blackmon, Hunter, Kuhn, Martin, Bigby, Williams

4. Target a NT to rotate with Pickett as soon as you can fit one into the BPA slot in the draft (and don't miss on the guy), and let the rest of the talented draft picks fight for their spots on the roster.

That'd likely take up all the cap space we got - and I think make a team - if it can stay reasonably healthy - that can put itself in position for the playoffs for the foreseeable future.

[BZnDallas]

1. Hopefully either Clifton has some legs left or Tauscher is re-signed. I'm not convinced that it's not in our best interests to go after someone (1 guy with Colledge moving to Tackle) younger than both of those guys in FA.

2. Then Olshansky or Canty in FA.

3. Re-up these existing guys: Kampman, Chillar, Pickett, Collins, Colledge, Jennings, Spitz, Blackmon, Hunter, Kuhn, Martin, Bigby, Williams

4. Target a NT to rotate with Pickett as soon as you can fit one into the BPA slot in the draft (and don't miss on the guy), and let the rest of the talented draft picks fight for their spots on the roster.

That'd likely take up all the cap space we got - and I think make a team - if it can stay reasonably healthy - that can put itself in position for the playoffs for the foreseeable future.


i love the idea of olshansky being signed... he seems like a perfect fit for the city of GB... i'm not too sure about canty... i heard on the radio down here in dallas that he wants a similar contract that was signed by that raider dline man last year.. (Kelly?)... in my opinion that is waaaaay to much to money to give to a 3-4 de... and lets face it, doing anything the raiders do is questionable at best... :wink:

[run pMc]

The one defense to really keep in mind if we don't full bore convert overnight is Miami's D. When they made the switch from the base 4-3 of Bates and began moving toward the 3-4, they ran a hybrid and Capers was part of the staff.

This might be a very important factor -- Capers has already seen the Bates D and worked on a staff that transitioned from it. I'm sure he learned some things that will help the transition go faster/more smooth for GB.

I don't see a lot of names that TT will go after aggressively, but I agree Olshanky could be one. Having played for PIT, I wonder about Haggans, but I don't know if he has anything left or what his contract demands are.

I think this is a year where TT loads up on D in the draft.

[Guiness]

1 gap 5 technique DE's do not take on multiple blockers, otherwise the OLB has an unblocked run to either the QB or back.


5 tech DE? What does that mean? I've never heard of a '5 tech'

[Guiness]

Dewayne Robertson was released by Denver - big name on a horrible defense. He had a $16million cap number this coming year!!!

Guy's 27yrs old. Got to be a spot for him on our line...

[BZnDallas]

Dewayne Robertson was released by Denver - big name on a horrible defense. He had a $16million cap number this coming year!!!

Guy's 27yrs old. Got to be a spot for him on our line...

i had read that the other day and thought the same thing... most of the time when a guy is supposed to get paid that kind of money he has some skill... maybe TT brings him in under a smaller pay check and Dom can get him to play up to his $16 milllion potential... that would be sweet!!!!

but am i hoping for too much???... probably :oops:

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think Robertson was run out of New York because he was a bad fit for their 3-4 defense. Isn't Denver moving to the 3-4 this year as well?

[Guiness]

I think Robertson was run out of New York because he was a bad fit for their 3-4 defense. Isn't Denver moving to the 3-4 this year as well?

Yes, rumours are they and KC will both be switching.

Robertson got run out, or let go? Pretty different of course. I wonder if it's more the former...Jets got a low round pick for him, which is pretty poor for any starter, let alone a good DT who is worthy of a contract like he signed.

BTW Wiki tells me he signed a 5yr, $24mil contract. How the f does he end up with a $16mil cap number in year 2?????

I don't like this switch to 3-4. The NFL is a copycat league, and Pitt just won with a dominant 3-4 defense. I have a lot of trouble believing it is inherently better, and am more inclined to think it's a flavour of the month thing.