36 million in cap room

[pack4to84]

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/ic/blogs/insider/index.shtml

Packers have $36 million in cap room
The NFL has finished calculating teams' salary-cap commitments and credits, and the Green Bay Packers will have about $36 million in salary-cap room when the new fiscal year starts Thursday at 11 p.m., according to a source with access to NFL salary information.

The Packers have about $96 million in cap commitments this year, and the cap limit is $123 million. But they also pick up about $9 million in cap credits carried over from last year via accounting procedures, so their actual cap limit is $132 million. That means they have about $36 million in cap room.

[Joemailman]

I would expect TT to use a lot of that money on contract extensions. There are a bunch of key players whose contracts end in 2009. If 2010 is going to possibly be an uncapped year, TT won't want a bunch of his players becoming free agents at that time.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Not directly related, but probably fits here.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d80eee3f0&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true


Green Bay Packers

Potential key free agents: UFA -- DT Colin Cole, DE Mike Montgomery, OT Mark Tauscher. RFA -- S Atari Bigby, CB Jarrett Bush, TE Tory Humphrey, WR Ruvell Martin.

What worked last year: QB Aaron Rodgers, defensive backfield, WR Greg Jennings.

What needs fixing: The defensive front, OT, late-season gumption.

What's the game plan: A switch to a 3-4 defense under the guidance of Dom Capers could help take advantage of a solid group of linebackers. Though DE Aaron Kampman will play some OLB, the team would like to acquire a veteran OLB and Atlanta UFA Michael Boley could be a fit. Some help at OT could be needed if Mark Tauscher leaves via free agency. Eagles UFA tackle William Thomas is the best on the market.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I would expect TT to use a lot of that money on contract extensions.

Agreed. Jennings, Kampman, and some others.

[Joemailman]

Unofficial list of players whose contracts expire after this season:

Kampman, Clfton, Chillar, Pickett, Collins, Colledge, Jennings, Spitz, Blackmon, Moll, Jolly.

[packers11]

Unofficial list of players whose contracts expire after this season:

Kampman, Clfton, Chillar, Pickett, Collins, Colledge, Jennings, Spitz, Blackmon, Moll, Jolly.

:shock: shit... thats a lot of players ready to hit free agency...

Jennings/Collins is a must lock up...

Kampman is a wait and see (depending how he does in 3-4)

Pickett could still be a sufficient NT (matters how much he wants)

The rest matters how much they want / if they fit ....

[texaspackerbacker]

I would expect TT to use a lot of that money on contract extensions. There are a bunch of key players whose contracts end in 2009. If 2010 is going to possibly be an uncapped year, TT won't want a bunch of his players becoming free agents at that time.

Good observation, Joe. I just hope those players don't see fit to test things in the uncapped year. I think I might be tempted if I were them--especially Jennings and the rest of the best of them.

[red]

Unofficial list of players whose contracts expire after this season:

Kampman, Clfton, Chillar, Pickett, Collins, Colledge, Jennings, Spitz, Blackmon, Moll, Jolly.

kampman and jennings are the only 2 i would even consider redoing this year

they are both proven, and you know they are dependable

the rest of the guys i would wait on

-does clifton have anything left in the tank?

-if they want to keep chillar i don't think that would cost much at all

-pickett would depend on what happens in the draft and if he can handle NT

-collins needs to show it wasn't a one year wonder. maybe redo midseason if he still looks like he did last year

-colledge and spitz still have a long way to go IMO before i would consider them dependable starters



there isn't a lot i would go after in FA. i would like canty, or igore, maybe bart scott, maybe find some new inside o-line guys

none of those, except maybe scott would cost a lot to get

we could maybe sign a couple mid tier Fa's and resign kampman and jenkins and put as much as we can on this years salary cap

or we couple sign and trade for everyone in the world and back load the shit out of all their contracts and hope there isn't a cap or football in a couple years and just put all our chips in for this season

[Waldo]

Colledge looked too good at tackle and put it together last year at LG. This team goes to the playoffs and he has a good chance of going to the pro bowl playing at last years level. Can't wait on that, lock him up now. He moves to T, tack 2M on his contract. He goes to a PB, tack 2M on to his contract. He fills in for Cliffy and goes to a pro bowl, we're looking at Gross money. Not good. Lock him up now for 4-5M/yr and call it good. If we do that and move him to LT (his natural position), we'll have one of the cheapest veteran LT's in the NFL.

If I were Collins or Jennings I would hold out if the team doesn't redo my deal this offseason, if not I probably would walk next year. Just the way the business of the NFL works. We're not immune to it.

[packer4life]

waldo, i read your posts, they are intelligent, but please elaborate on your love for colledge, seeing that this is one of the few times that anyone has spoken of his play as anything more than average.

Did I miss something this season?

[rbaloha1]

Salary cap management is a definite TT strength.

Agreed Jennings should be the #1 priority. Unfortunately GJ is on record stating he wants to test free agency.

Collins should be locked up ASAP. The roughly seven free agents do not need to resigned except for Bigby and Hunter.

With $30 million plus cap space TT can sign 1-2 free agents with enough room to sign draft picks.

[red]

thats the first i've heard that jennings wants to test free agency

i know he didn't want to redo his contract last season because he didn't want to have distractions during the season

[Waldo]

waldo, i read your posts, they are intelligent, but please elaborate on your love for colledge, seeing that this is one of the few times that anyone has spoken of his play as anything more than average.

Did I miss something this season?

Any time a run goes for more than 5 yards, watch for Colledge blowing guys up and pancaking LB's along the way, its almost always there. He's our best run blocker, by far. His pass pro is solid, especially at tackle, he works better in space than in a phone booth. Aaron trusts Calledge far more than Clifton, every time Colledge replaced him, Aaron's happy feet want away and his confidence in the pocket grew. The offense was far more effective with Colledge at LT overall (Clifton is downright dysfunctional agaisnt the run).

The two longest runs of the year; week 1 vs. Mn, Colledge manhandled phat Pat 1 on 1 opening a huge hole for Grant to run through. week 17 vs Detroit, Wynn's long run was behind Colledge steamrolling the D, he destroyed 4 blockers on that play, far better than Tausher has done in years, in his first start at RT. Aaron always follows Colledge on sneaks, and a sneak didn't fail last year.

It was sad how often Clifton got manhandled by an end in the run game, completely negating Colledges path of destruction through the linebackers. If Clifton wouldn't suck so much agaisnt the run, the left side would be dominant to run behind. Jackson was taking advantage of Clifton getting beat though, cutting just outside of Clifton, not following the blocking or the play, assuming Clifton was getting mauled to the interior and just going by it. It worked, a lot, probably got him more than half his yards. Grant can't cut like that to take advantage of it.

[Waldo]

thats the first i've heard that jennings wants to test free agency

i know he didn't want to redo his contract last season because he didn't want to have distractions during the season

Its just rumor mill fodder and runs completely agaisnt everything that has actually come out of Jennings' and TT's mouth in public.

I've come real jaded about the rumor mill crap. 99.9% of the time it isn't true for GB.

[packer4life]

any stats on running average to the left side when colledge is in the game vs clifton? im sure there were far less attempts with colledge at LT but still something that would help prove your point waldo (not that i dont believe it)

[HarveyWallbangers]

thats the first i've heard that jennings wants to test free agency

i know he didn't want to redo his contract last season because he didn't want to have distractions during the season

Its just rumor mill fodder and runs completely agaisnt everything that has actually come out of Jennings' and TT's mouth in public.

I've come real jaded about the rumor mill crap. 99.9% of the time it isn't true for GB.

He even said he'd love to sign a long-term deal with the Packers.

[Bretsky]

they'll get Jennings done; TT will have cap space to burn this year and he'll do the front load thing again

They'll probably sign a role player/backup/body in FA as well

[rbaloha1]

thats the first i've heard that jennings wants to test free agency

i know he didn't want to redo his contract last season because he didn't want to have distractions during the season

I heard Jennings mention in an interview. Basically he stated testing free agency is best for his family. Its not rumor mill.

[Packers4Ever]

waldo, i read your posts, they are intelligent, but please elaborate on your love for colledge, seeing that this is one of the few times that anyone has spoken of his play as anything more than average.

Did I miss something this season?


Have to agree with packer4life, I enjoy your posts too, Waldo,
but I can count on one (1) finger the number of times I've
read any real positive comments on Colledge in this Forum.
Would love to believe it, he's been here long enough to have
become a mighty force ! :?:

[Bossman641]

waldo, i read your posts, they are intelligent, but please elaborate on your love for colledge, seeing that this is one of the few times that anyone has spoken of his play as anything more than average.

Did I miss something this season?


Have to agree with packer4life, I enjoy your posts too, Waldo,
but I can count on one (1) finger the number of times I've
read any real positive comments on Colledge in this Forum.
Would love to believe it, he's been here long enough to have
become a mighty force ! :?:

I think alot of people still have a biased impression of Colledge from his rookie and sophomore years when he was very inconsistent. I thought he was our best OL by far this year.

[Waldo]

The only LT in this draft who has feet that can hang with DC is J. Smith. His movement ability is exceptional, and he doesn't struggle agaisnt one thing, generally just a play of sloppy tech, he can beat power, handle big guys, and take care of speed. Clifton's starting to struggle with speed, especially when they cut inside. Clifton would really struggle with the KGB of old right now.

Colledge has been the whipping boy for a long time because of his consistency. As a rook power beat him. Afterwards it was no one thing, just too much sloppy tech. He cleaned that up a lot this last season and found a great deal of consistency. Every time he replaced a T, he looked better than the guy he replaced, and in Tausher's case, a lot better. But his feet are more valuable on the left, either at LG or LT.

[packer4life]

waldo, i read your posts, they are intelligent, but please elaborate on your love for colledge, seeing that this is one of the few times that anyone has spoken of his play as anything more than average.

Did I miss something this season?


Have to agree with packer4life, I enjoy your posts too, Waldo,
but I can count on one (1) finger the number of times I've
read any real positive comments on Colledge in this Forum.
Would love to believe it, he's been here long enough to have
become a mighty force ! :?:

I think alot of people still have a biased impression of Colledge from his rookie and sophomore years when he was very inconsistent. I thought he was our best OL by far this year.

you might be right...i still have flashbacks of his first game in the preseason against san diego. oh man he looked like an absolute nightmare in that game

[rbaloha1]

Colledge's improved but not enough to warrant a big long term contract.

Believe this is Colledge's money year. Watched Colledge from Boise State and believe left tackle is his best position.

[Waldo]

Colledge's improved but not enough to warrant a big long term contract.

Believe this is Colledge's money year. Watched Colledge from Boise State and believe left tackle is his best position.

Nor is he worth a big long term contract. He is worth a moderate long term contract (J. Scott money). He plays too much more at T or gets some honors, he's no longer a moderate long term guy, he becomes a big long term guy. 4-5M is still feasible, FA left guard money has become Faneca money (6-7M), we wait a year and he doesn't take a home town discount, that is what we're looking at. He moves to RT, we're looking at Tausher money (5.5-6.5M). He moves the LT, 8-9M is what we're talking. He goes to a PB at LT and 10M+ is what we're looking at. IMO it is riskier to wait to pull the trigger as the potiential payday goes through the roof, than it is to do it now. Less than stellar 4-5M/yr performance is far better than looking at 10M, over 3-4 years that's a FA like Woodson we give up by sitting pat.

Carolina balked at signing Gross last year for low end LT money, wanted to wait a year to be safe. Oops. That's a 4M/yr mistake, 24M in the long run. You can get a solid player for 4M/yr.

[Joemailman]

thats the first i've heard that jennings wants to test free agency

i know he didn't want to redo his contract last season because he didn't want to have distractions during the season

I heard Jennings mention in an interview. Basically he stated testing free agency is best for his family. Its not rumor mill.

He would be taking a huge risk if he refused to sign an extension. The best thing for his family would be to accept a big signing bonus now. I'll be surprised if he doesn't sign with the Packers.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I heard Jennings mention in an interview. Basically he stated testing free agency is best for his family. Its not rumor mill.

This came out after those rumors. I doubt you heard him say that he's definitely going to test UFA.


Mike Vandermause, of the Green Bay Press-Gazette, reports Green Bay Packers WR Greg Jennings said he would like to stay with the Packers beyond when his contract expires after the 2009 season. "It's not really all about the money. I'm more concerned about my family and where their comfort level is. We're comfortable here. We like it here. It's close to home for me. It's actually the perfect situation for me and my family. We don't want to leave at all. Hopefully we'd love to get something done, either here now or next year, it doesn't matter. The sooner the better actually," Jennings said.

If he was definitely going to test UFA, then you wouldn't read this:


Pete Dougherty, of the Green Bay Press-Gazette, reports the Green Bay Packers and the agent for WR Greg Jennings will likely begin talks on a contract extension at the NFL Scouting Combine.

[Waldo]

The time to sign for players is right now. Money is worth more right now. 20M last June is worth no more than 12M today (if not kept in a mattress). When this market recovers 20M will turn into 30M real quick. The present value of large amounts of wealth hasn't been higher or decades.

I don't think that it is any coincidence that Aaron signed pretty quick after the market tanked. He's a smart guy, he was probably costing himself long term wealth if he waited until it recovers, even if he became a more accomplished player and worth a larger contract.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I think we should go out and sign at least one quality free agent. With 36 million and Harris, Driver, and Clifton all leaving probably within the next two years I don't think they will be strapped for cash any time soon. This is a good time a sign a decent player.

Re-sign are guys and sign a guy that knows how to play the 3-4

[Guiness]

The only LT in this draft who has feet that can hang with DC is J. Smith. His movement ability is exceptional, and he doesn't struggle agaisnt one thing, generally just a play of sloppy tech, he can beat power, handle big guys, and take care of speed. Clifton's starting to struggle with speed, especially when they cut inside. Clifton would really struggle with the KGB of old right now.

Colledge has been the whipping boy for a long time because of his consistency. As a rook power beat him. Afterwards it was no one thing, just too much sloppy tech. He cleaned that up a lot this last season and found a great deal of consistency. Every time he replaced a T, he looked better than the guy he replaced, and in Tausher's case, a lot better. But his feet are more valuable on the left, either at LG or LT.

Think that highly of him, eh? That's something to say a guy who was bottom of the second round a couple of years ago bears mentioning with guys who are looking to go top 5 in the draft, saying his tools are as good.

So true though, that OT, more than any other position, takes a couple of years to develop. Along with QB, probably the position you're least likely to get instant satisfaction from the draft. Joe Thomas's of the world aside.

[Waldo]

You guys think we're gonna be in the news Fri? We were last year. Maybe this year we're on the opposite end of the same type of deal. It's been eerily silent lately on him.

[Fritz]

Don't be so vague, Waldo. "Him"? Blockheads like me need to be spoon fed.

[Waldo]

Arrington, Vinnitieri, Moss, Gonzales; TT isn't afraid of big moves. He was high bidder on all of them (until NE jumped ahead of us with Moss). Lavarr stayed in-division, Vinny wanted a dome, KC couldn't pull the trigger, NE made an 11th hour deal.

Peppers.

TT chases low level guys and stars. He ignores above average players that are treated like stars in FA. Big Al is a star in a 4-3, he's a pretty bad fit for a 3-4 (at that money, he'd make a fine end, but thats a wee bit too much to pay an end). Elephant OLB is a premium position in a 3-4, worthy of breaking the bank for. With no cap next year, it is a fairly safe move.

[Waldo]

The only LT in this draft who has feet that can hang with DC is J. Smith. His movement ability is exceptional, and he doesn't struggle agaisnt one thing, generally just a play of sloppy tech, he can beat power, handle big guys, and take care of speed. Clifton's starting to struggle with speed, especially when they cut inside. Clifton would really struggle with the KGB of old right now.

Colledge has been the whipping boy for a long time because of his consistency. As a rook power beat him. Afterwards it was no one thing, just too much sloppy tech. He cleaned that up a lot this last season and found a great deal of consistency. Every time he replaced a T, he looked better than the guy he replaced, and in Tausher's case, a lot better. But his feet are more valuable on the left, either at LG or LT.

Think that highly of him, eh? That's something to say a guy who was bottom of the second round a couple of years ago bears mentioning with guys who are looking to go top 5 in the draft, saying his tools are as good.

So true though, that OT, more than any other position, takes a couple of years to develop. Along with QB, probably the position you're least likely to get instant satisfaction from the draft. Joe Thomas's of the world aside.

Daryn had 4 big knocks draft day:
He wasn't very strong
The level of competition he played against was mediocre at best (His team lost 7 games his whole college career, and only 1 game in-division).
He played from a 2 pt stance
His technique was sloppy at times (the inconsistent label that killed Oher's stock)

Because of that he wasn't "safe" enough to be a top pick. Athletically though he's quicker (40, SS) and more agile (3 cone) than any of the first round tackles this draft.

[cpk1994]

Arrington, Vinnitieri, Moss, Gonzales; TT isn't afraid of big moves. He was high bidder on all of them (until NE jumped ahead of us with Moss). Lavarr stayed in-division, Vinny wanted a dome, KC couldn't pull the trigger, NE made an 11th hour deal.

Peppers.

TT chases low level guys and stars. He ignores above average players that are treated like stars in FA. Big Al is a star in a 4-3, he's a pretty bad fit for a 3-4 (at that money, he'd make a fine end, but thats a wee bit too much to pay an end). Elephant OLB is a premium position in a 3-4, worthy of breaking the bank for. With no cap next year, it is a fairly safe move.Problem is Peppers was franchised. TT won't pony up the draft picks to get him, nor should he.

[KYPack]

[Daryn had 4 big knocks draft day:
He wasn't very strong
The level of competition he played against was mediocre at best (His team lost 7 games his whole college career, and only 1 game in-division).
He played from a 2 pt stance
His technique was sloppy at times (the inconsistent label that killed Oher's stock)

Because of that he wasn't "safe" enough to be a top pick. Athletically though he's quicker (40, SS) and more agile (3 cone) than any of the first round tackles this draft.

-He wasn't that strong, but years in an NFL weight room and natural growth have turned that around.

-Didn't know that about "played from a 2 pt stance" deal. He sure is comfortable in a 3 pt stance now.

- There is only one blot on DC's playing resume that bugs me. He had terrible games at LG, but he was a kid. That will happen. He has usually looked very solid at LT, but of course that has only been in spots. The episode that bothered me was the SF Pre-Season games last summer. Cliffy was a late scratch or something. They started DC at tackle in a last minute switch. And Colledge was eaten alive. Blown up against the run, run over in pass pro. Daryn pitched a no-hitter that night.

Was that a one game aberration? I hope so, but it was troubling.

The other thing that drives me nuts is that all of our kiddie corps of Olineman are lousy drive blockers. Moll, Colledge, & Spitz can't root hog anybody. They all have other strengths, but blowing a guy out of the hole on the run ain't one of 'em.

I hope those three and Sitton and Barbre get it together and form an Oline for us.

But, I'm still worried about the whole deal.

[Waldo]

Don't be so sure about that. Peppers isn't worth nearly as much as Allen (who was traded for the equivalent of #9 overall), I think that he can reasonably be had for mid 20's value. Most likely our 2nd and 3rd would get the job done, so would a 2nd and 4th plus 2010 conditional. #9 would surely be off the table.

[Waldo]

[Daryn had 4 big knocks draft day:
He wasn't very strong
The level of competition he played against was mediocre at best (His team lost 7 games his whole college career, and only 1 game in-division).
He played from a 2 pt stance
His technique was sloppy at times (the inconsistent label that killed Oher's stock)

Because of that he wasn't "safe" enough to be a top pick. Athletically though he's quicker (40, SS) and more agile (3 cone) than any of the first round tackles this draft.

-He wasn't that strong, but years in an NFL weight room and natural growth have turned that around.

-Didn't know that about "played from a 2 pt stance" deal. He sure is comfortable in a 3 pt stance now.

- There is only one blot on DC's playing resume that bugs me. He had terrible games at LG, but he was a kid. That will happen. He has usually looked very solid at LT, but of course that has only been in spots. The episode that bothered me was the SF Pre-Season games last summer. Cliffy was a late scratch or something. They started DC at tackle in a last minute switch. And Colledge was eaten alive. Blown up against the run, run over in pass pro. Daryn pitched a no-hitter that night.

Was that a one game aberration? I hope so, but it was troubling.

The other thing that drives me nuts is that all of our kiddie corps of Olineman are lousy drive blockers. Moll, Colledge, & Spitz can't root hog anybody. They all have other strengths, but blowing a guy out of the hole on the run ain't one of 'em.

I hope those three and Sitton and Barbre get it together and form an Oline for us.

But, I'm still worried about the whole deal.

You are thinking of the Miami-GB game his rookie year. That's the only time he looked bad at LT. He played LG in the SF preseason game, and yes, he laid an egg, gave up 2 sacks, one was really ugly (getting pushed over). He played LT later on and looked good. I haven't seen him look bad at LT since Taylor kicked his butt, and I specifically watch him every time he's in there, so that in times like these I know if we "need" a LT or not.

[HarveyWallbangers]

You are thinking of the Miami-GB game his rookie year. That's the only time he looked bad at LT.

He's had other games where he struggled, but overall looks like a good LT. That Miami game wan't that bad. He got last minute notice of starting, and struggled in the first quarter (giving up a couple of sacks to Taylor, I believe), but then settled in nicely in a dominating victory.

[Fritz]

Don't be so sure about that. Peppers isn't worth nearly as much as Allen (who was traded for the equivalent of #9 overall), I think that he can reasonably be had for mid 20's value. Most likely our 2nd and 3rd would get the job done, so would a 2nd and 4th plus 2010 conditional. #9 would surely be off the table.

I'm always one to throw unsubstantiated rumor around, so let me pile on: I believe Philly is the only team with two number ones. What if - what if - they wanted to move up to #9? A shot at Sanchez, maybe?

Or even a trade down to the low 20s plus a second would net you the low 20's you'd need for Peppers - then you'd still have two seconds.

Wild, random, fantasy trades. I love it.

[Fritz]

Hey, is Peppers suited to play opposite Kampman, or would they be at the same position?

[Waldo]

Hey, is Peppers suited to play opposite Kampman, or would they be at the same position?

Kamp wants to stay on the left, where he is best suited. Pep would replace Poppinga on the right, where he is best suited (good god, we currently have Pops penciled in in the most important position on the D).

The best value in trading for Pep is tomorrow. The longer Carolina waits to trade him, the more his value grows until about early-mid April, then it declines again as the draft approaches. They can't do squat in FA until they get him off the books. If they want to be FA players, they've got to move him pronto. That comes at a cost to leverage (hence compensation).

Our 2nd and 3rd is worth #25. Our 2nd, 4th, and conditional 2010 pick (2nd-3rd performance based) is worth #26.

If the Eagles trade up, it will be to take a LT. If Oher falls to us, there is a chance they'd make the move. Otherwise Tampa or the Jets could hop up to get Sanchez, the Redskins could jump up to get Orakpo, the Broncos could move up to get Raji.

[Lurker64]

(good god, we currently have Pops penciled in in the most important position on the D).

He's going to play Nose Tackle? Pretty bad call by McCarthy there ;)

[Waldo]

(good god, we currently have Pops penciled in in the most important position on the D).

He's going to play Nose Tackle? Pretty bad call by McCarthy there ;)

IMO elephant OLB is more important than NT. I have a hard time calling a situational player the most important player. Close though, it is definitely #2, with a long way to #3, but there is a reason elephant OLB's sign 10M/yr contracts, NT's sign 6M/yr contracts.

[Bossman641]

Don't be so sure about that. Peppers isn't worth nearly as much as Allen (who was traded for the equivalent of #9 overall), I think that he can reasonably be had for mid 20's value. Most likely our 2nd and 3rd would get the job done, so would a 2nd and 4th plus 2010 conditional. #9 would surely be off the table.

I'm always one to throw unsubstantiated rumor around, so let me pile on: I believe Philly is the only team with two number ones. What if - what if - they wanted to move up to #9? A shot at Sanchez, maybe?

Or even a trade down to the low 20s plus a second would net you the low 20's you'd need for Peppers - then you'd still have two seconds.

Wild, random, fantasy trades. I love it.

Philly already has Kolb waiting in the wings. I doubt they'd trade up for another QB. I like where your mind is at though.

[3irty1]

Don't be so sure about that. Peppers isn't worth nearly as much as Allen (who was traded for the equivalent of #9 overall), I think that he can reasonably be had for mid 20's value. Most likely our 2nd and 3rd would get the job done, so would a 2nd and 4th plus 2010 conditional. #9 would surely be off the table.

I'm always one to throw unsubstantiated rumor around, so let me pile on: I believe Philly is the only team with two number ones. What if - what if - they wanted to move up to #9? A shot at Sanchez, maybe?

Or even a trade down to the low 20s plus a second would net you the low 20's you'd need for Peppers - then you'd still have two seconds.

Wild, random, fantasy trades. I love it.

Philly already has Kolb waiting in the wings. I doubt they'd trade up for another QB. I like where your mind is at though.

What about the Jets or Tampa Bay? Both of those teams need QBs and could look to move up.

[dtown]

Unofficial list of players whose contracts expire after this season:

Kampman, Clfton, Chillar, Pickett, Collins, Colledge, Jennings, Spitz, Blackmon, Moll, Jolly.

:shock: shit... thats a lot of players ready to hit free agency...

Jennings/Collins is a must lock up...

Kampman is a wait and see (depending how he does in 3-4)

Pickett could still be a sufficient NT (matters how much he wants)

The rest matters how much they want / if they fit ....


Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the case of an uncapped season (requiring 6 years for UFA) then Jennings and Collins (and Spitz, Moll, Colledge, Jolly & Blackmon) wouldn't become UFA's. I'd imagine this uncertainty would give more incentive for both parties to enter into a long term deal before the season.

[Guiness]

As far as trading for Peppers, aside from what Carolina would want, he's guaranteed the amount he was tendered for next season. Even if the team he goes to signs him to a long term deal, it has to include $16-$17 million (whatever the tender was) for this year.

I don't think we want to pay that for him, regardless.

[Waldo]

As far as trading for Peppers, aside from what Carolina would want, he's guaranteed the amount he was tendered for next season. Even if the team he goes to signs him to a long term deal, it has to include $16-$17 million (whatever the tender was) for this year.

I don't think we want to pay that for him, regardless.

That doesn't mean the cap hit has to be 16-17M, it means he physically had to be given that much money.

The minimum deal he can be signed to is a salary of 3.4M this year and a signing bonus of 13.6M, for a 2009 cap hit of 6.8M (about what Kampman makes). He's gonna get a lot more than that. But we have the cap space to frontload the snot out of it this year and next in salary and give him a smaller signing bonus, then come out of the uncapped year with a guy that costs little to the cap and is easy to cut if need be.

IMO it is better to resign the bulk of our guys after the '09 season. Only the vital parts or big savings (Jennings and Colledge IMO) should be resigned now, the rest can get big salaries instead of bonuses next year, and emerge from the uncapped year with very cap cheap contracts.

It is feasible (but rather ludicrous) that for example...say Rodgers didn't get his deal until next year and we allowed his original deal to expire at the end of this year. We could pay him 50M in salary next year (I believe, I don't think the 30% rule applies to guys not under contract), then 2M each successive year, and end up with a QB who got a 60M contract, that counts 2M toward the cap each successive year the rest of its life.

Basically, aside from the huge hit to the liquid bank account and difficulty of negotiating a lot of contracts, it is very advantageous to have a lot of contracts expire after '09. The team can emerge from uncapped into capped football with a very cheap roster (to the cap).

[Guiness]

As far as trading for Peppers, aside from what Carolina would want, he's guaranteed the amount he was tendered for next season. Even if the team he goes to signs him to a long term deal, it has to include $16-$17 million (whatever the tender was) for this year.

I don't think we want to pay that for him, regardless.

That doesn't mean the cap hit has to be 16-17M, it means he physically had to be given that much money.

The minimum deal he can be signed to is a salary of 3.4M this year and a signing bonus of 13.6M, for a 2009 cap hit of 6.8M (about what Kampman makes). He's gonna get a lot more than that. But we have the cap space to frontload the snot out of it this year and next in salary and give him a smaller signing bonus, then come out of the uncapped year with a guy that costs little to the cap and is easy to cut if need be.

IMO it is better to resign the bulk of our guys after the '09 season. Only the vital parts or big savings (Jennings and Colledge IMO) should be resigned now, the rest can get big salaries instead of bonuses next year, and emerge from the uncapped year with very cap cheap contracts.

It is feasible (but rather ludicrous) that for example...say Rodgers didn't get his deal until next year and we allowed his original deal to expire at the end of this year. We could pay him 50M in salary next year (I believe, I don't think the 30% rule applies to guys not under contract), then 2M each successive year, and end up with a QB who got a 60M contract, that counts 2M toward the cap each successive year the rest of its life.[/b]

So part of the guaranteed amount could be signing bonus, i.e. pro-rated. I didn't realize that.

I know there's a mess of rules about the uncapped year - and I've been patently ignoring them. I get a kick out of the financial side of things, have picked it up over time, and don't mind occasionally doing some research on a point...but to try and digest everything that's going to happen in an uncapped year is just too much.

[Fritz]

Dammit, I want Waldo and Patler working in the front office for the Packers.

[falco]

Dammit, I want Waldo and Patler working in the front office for the Packers.

and i want you to be the best man at my wedding

just saying

[Bretsky]

Dammit, I want Waldo and Patler working in the front office for the Packers.


Pictures me in charge of free agency and then Waldo and Patler breaking down numbers I don't want to hear :lol:

[Fritz]

Bretsky, you'd be better suited to work for Daniel Snyder.

[Fritz]

Dammit, I want Waldo and Patler working in the front office for the Packers.

and i want you to be the best man at my wedding

just saying

I'm honored, Falco. Is her sister hot by any chance (I am single now).

[falco]

I'm honored, Falco. Is her sister hot by any chance (I am single now).

http://www.joblog.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/bikerchick-fat.jpg

depends on your definition...

[falco]

also, by my wedding I mean my new packers forum, and by best man i mean moderator, but you get the point... you are my favorite poster.

although waldo has the best combination of avatar and football knowledge

[falco]

also, i could have gone the skinbasket route with that imagine but I kept it pg-13 on purpose

[Bretsky]

Bretsky, you'd be better suited to work for Daniel Snyder.


I'd prefer Jerry Jones cuz Bretsky wants the spotlight when his cream rises to the top :!:

[falco]

Bretsky, you'd be better suited to work for Daniel Snyder.


I'd prefer Jerry Jones cuz Bretsky wants the spotlight when his cream rises to the top :!:

isn't the annual trip to the corporate retreat in hawaii good enough for you? oh, wait.... :oops:

[Bretsky]

Bretsky, you'd be better suited to work for Daniel Snyder.


I'd prefer Jerry Jones cuz Bretsky wants the spotlight when his cream rises to the top :!:

isn't the annual trip to the corporate retreat in hawaii good enough for you? oh, wait.... :oops:

:!: :lol:

[red]

Bretsky, you'd be better suited to work for Daniel Snyder.


I'd prefer Jerry Jones cuz Bretsky wants the spotlight when his cream rises to the top :!:

screw it, lets combine forces and go al davis style all day baby

[SnakeLH2006]

First off I love ya Waldo...your posts have kept this forum afloat for the past month or two, but Snake's sentiments reside with many about Colledge. I HD-DVR'd every game in 2008 to watch each play several times from many angles. Yes, Colledge improved and may be our best LT now as Cliffy was worse than many think last year. He's done. Is Colledge worth a 4-6 year deal...? Perhaps, but only at 4-4.5 million right now. Maybe TT does it, but I'd still upgrade to a true (being 320 lb. mauler) as this finesse OL shit will pass with the zone. I guess I'd do it money-wise, but damn if Colledge is underwhelming game after game.

[Fritz]

Fritz likes how Snake refers to himself in the third person.

It's working for the Snakester.

[Patler]

As far as trading for Peppers, aside from what Carolina would want, he's guaranteed the amount he was tendered for next season. Even if the team he goes to signs him to a long term deal, it has to include $16-$17 million (whatever the tender was) for this year.

I don't think we want to pay that for him, regardless.

That doesn't mean the cap hit has to be 16-17M, it means he physically had to be given that much money.

The minimum deal he can be signed to is a salary of 3.4M this year and a signing bonus of 13.6M, for a 2009 cap hit of 6.8M (about what Kampman makes). He's gonna get a lot more than that. But we have the cap space to frontload the snot out of it this year and next in salary and give him a smaller signing bonus, then come out of the uncapped year with a guy that costs little to the cap and is easy to cut if need be.

I'm not sure I agree, if I understand what is being suggested. So first I want to make sure I understand what you are suggesting.

How did you arrive at the numbers for the minimum deal he could be signed to, $3.4M '08 salary and $13.6M bonus, 4 years?

Are you aware of any legal "requirement" that he be given the tender offer amount in the first year of any longer term deal? I am aware of no legal requirement. I believe (but certainly could be wrong on this) that it is merely a practical consideration. Why would a player sign a long term deal for less $ in hand this year than he would get by accepting the tender offer for one year?

Nothing is yet guaranteed for any of the tagged players, other than Cassel. I believe Cassel is the only one who has accepted the tender. Until the tendered contract is accepted, the designation can be withdrawn. From a practical point of view it is a virtual guarantee, because if withdrawn the player becomes a free agent; however, I believe it has happened once or twice.

[Waldo]

To be traded he has to sign the tender, then sign a new contract (extension). The tender is a contract, a team can't trade a player technically not under contract. Once the tender is signed, the amount is fully guaranteed, so the team that signs them to the new contract must at least guarantee the amount of the tender, since it is an extension to the franchise tag contract, not a new contract. You can't give a player a 2nd contract that is already under contract, by signing the tag to be traded, they are locked in to a contract for that year.

I believe the maximum length a signing bonus can be spread is 4 years this year. I read a rule that only 3 years of it can be charged to uncapped years. Since next year in uncapped and there is no CBA in place afterwards, the maximum amortization is 4 years this league year.

[imscott72]

Fritz likes how Snake refers to himself in the third person.

It's working for the Snakester.

i was going to ask the same thing. What's up with that?

[Patler]

To be traded he has to sign the tender, then sign a new contract (extension). The tender is a contract, a team can't trade a player technically not under contract. Once the tender is signed, the amount is fully guaranteed, so the team that signs them to the new contract must at least guarantee the amount of the tender, since it is an extension to the franchise tag contract, not a new contract. You can't give a player a 2nd contract that is already under contract, by signing the tag to be traded, they are locked in to a contract for that year.

I believe the maximum length a signing bonus can be spread is 4 years this year. I read a rule that only 3 years of it can be charged to uncapped years. Since next year in uncapped and there is no CBA in place afterwards, the maximum amortization is 4 years this league year.

A free agent player has to sign a contract to be traded, that is true; but it doesn't have to be the tendered contract, just a contract. What often happens is that the terms of the trade are agreed on between the teams. The acquiring team then negotiates a contract with the player, and the player signs a contract with his former team that has tradeable terms consistent with the terms he has negotiated with the new team. This is often just a formality, but it is that contract that is traded to the new team. The player then often signs a more detailed contact with the new team thereafter.

If the player actually signs the tendered contract, and the new contract is an extension to the terms of the tendered contract, you can not convert guaranteed contractual salary into bonus to defer the cap effect. Once the tender is signed, and the salary guaranteed, it remains salary. You can do things to various bonuses to convert them into signing bonuses by guaranteeing the bonus before it is due. I know no way of converting salary into bonus after the player is guaranteed the salary. In the off season, when salaries are not yet guaranteed for "regular" players, you can do things, but for veterans who make the opening roster and have guaranteed salaries, any negotiation extending the contract does not alter the salary component. For tagged players the salary is guaranteed from the time they sign the tender, and thus can not be changed to bonus, as I understand it.

[Fritz]

also, by my wedding I mean my new packers forum, and by best man i mean moderator, but you get the point... you are my favorite poster.

although waldo has the best combination of avatar and football knowledge

Does your new forum have a hot sister?

That definition of "hot"would be more consistent with traditional notions of hot...y'now, MILFs and younger hotties - our EC Ladies...nice build, smart, pretty face....

so does your new Packer forum have a sister like that?

[KYPack]

Man,
When Waldo and Patler get in an argument, I feel like the dumb kid on College Jeopardy.

I know some of that stuff, but I feel like if I knew all of it, I'd know too much!

[Guiness]

To be traded he has to sign the tender, then sign a new contract (extension). The tender is a contract, a team can't trade a player technically not under contract. Once the tender is signed, the amount is fully guaranteed, so the team that signs them to the new contract must at least guarantee the amount of the tender, since it is an extension to the franchise tag contract, not a new contract. You can't give a player a 2nd contract that is already under contract, by signing the tag to be traded, they are locked in to a contract for that year.

That's almost exactly my understanding, with the exception that I didn't think part of the tendered contract could be spread out over time by converting it to a signing bonus.

As Waldo said, the player is signing an extension. I seem to remember some rule the PA or the league has that says a player can only sign an extension is more money is added on, i.e. they can't 'give up' money when signing one. That would be re-negotiating, which they view under some other light.


I believe the maximum length a signing bonus can be spread is 4 years this year. I read a rule that only 3 years of it can be charged to uncapped years. Since next year in uncapped and there is no CBA in place afterwards, the maximum amortization is 4 years this league year.

See, this is where I don't get the shit about the lack of a cap. Only three years can be charged to uncapped years? What the hell do you care if there's no cap????

Oh. Wait a minute, I think I see...part of the signing bonus is amortized to '09, which is capped. The league is preventing teams signing longer contracts so only 1/7th or 1/6th of the bonus is in the capped year, forcing them to make it 1/4. That right?

Damn. I feel stupider after talking about this. I'm going to see if Red and Tarlam are around and want to start drinking :oops:

[Fritz]

Man,
When Waldo and Patler get in an argument, I feel like the dumb kid on College Jeopardy.

I know some of that stuff, but I feel like if I knew all of it, I'd know too much!

I know what ya mean...it's kinda like watching King Kong Vs. Godzilla, except Waldo and Patler are civilized.

Maybe it's more like watching Charlie Chan vs. Dr. Who.

[Guiness]

Ok, you were typing this response while I was mine...



To be traded he has to sign the tender, then sign a new contract (extension). The tender is a contract, a team can't trade a player technically not under contract. Once the tender is signed, the amount is fully guaranteed, so the team that signs them to the new contract must at least guarantee the amount of the tender, since it is an extension to the franchise tag contract, not a new contract. You can't give a player a 2nd contract that is already under contract, by signing the tag to be traded, they are locked in to a contract for that year.

I believe the maximum length a signing bonus can be spread is 4 years this year. I read a rule that only 3 years of it can be charged to uncapped years. Since next year in uncapped and there is no CBA in place afterwards, the maximum amortization is 4 years this league year.

A free agent player has to sign a contract to be traded, that is true; but it doesn't have to be the tendered contract, just a contract.

Are you sure of this? Once a tender has been offered, is the team still allowed to negotiate with the player before he signs that tender?

There are some rules about the tag, and I remember teams getting in trouble for bending them in the past. IIRC once you sign a tagged player, you are then free to negotiate a longer term contract. If you do, the player is no longer under the tag, and you can use it again. Some team got in trouble because the league decided they'd negotiated a long term deal with a player during some time period they weren't allowed to.



What often happens is that the terms of the trade are agreed on between the teams. The acquiring team then negotiates a contract with the player, and the player signs a contract with his former team that has tradeable terms consistent with the terms he has negotiated with the new team. This is often just a formality, but it is that contract that is traded to the new team.

See, I'm not so sure about this either, if I understand you correctly. Are you saying the player signs a contract (other than the tender) with the trading team? I can't see how this works, because that contract would have a signing bonus...which would be accelerated into the trading team's cap as soon as the trade went through.


The player then often signs a more detailed contact with the new team thereafter. If the player actually signs the tendered contract, and the new contract is an extension to the terms of the tendered contract, you can not convert guaranteed contractual salary into bonus to defer the cap effect.

Ok, this part is what I initially thought, i.e. guaranteed salary has to remain guaranteed salary.

[Guiness]

Man,
When Waldo and Patler get in an argument, I feel like the dumb kid on College Jeopardy.

I know some of that stuff, but I feel like if I knew all of it, I'd know too much!

I know what ya mean...it's kinda like watching King Kong Vs. Godzilla, except Waldo and Patler are civilized.

Maybe it's more like watching Charlie Chan vs. Dr. Who.

Geez, I guess I'm chopped liver in this discussion. Can I at least be Mothra? Or Sancho Panza?

[KYPack]

Geez, I guess I'm chopped liver in this discussion. Can I at least be Mothra? Or Sancho Panza?

OK.

We don't WTF you're talking about, either!




(Be Mothra. The World's most underrated monster)

[Zool]

I suck at salaries, but can I be Rodan?

[Guiness]

I suck at salaries, but can I be Rodan?

Rodan vs Mothra

http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/technology/watch/v1344143syFexepH

[Lurker64]

I suck at salaries, but can I be Rodan?

Let me think about that, for a bit:

http://photos.igougo.com/images/p303301-Brussels-The_Thinker.jpg

*rimshot*

[Patler]

Are you sure of this? Once a tender has been offered, is the team still allowed to negotiate with the player before he signs that tender?

Yes, they can sign him to a multi-year contract before July 15. Thereafter he can sign only a one year contract, which can not be extended until after the last regular season game.

[KYPack]

This is as good a spot to put this out there as any. The cap amount is up from 123 million to 127. i hadn't seen that before, although I'm sure someone has posted it somewhere

[Freak Out]

Maybe it's more like watching Charlie Chan vs. Dr. Who.

:lol: The Chan family. The original Doctor who show from the BBC was awesome.

[Patler]

What often happens is that the terms of the trade are agreed on between the teams. The acquiring team then negotiates a contract with the player, and the player signs a contract with his former team that has tradeable terms consistent with the terms he has negotiated with the new team. This is often just a formality, but it is that contract that is traded to the new team.

See, I'm not so sure about this either, if I understand you correctly. Are you saying the player signs a contract (other than the tender) with the trading team? I can't see how this works, because that contract would have a signing bonus...which would be accelerated into the trading team's cap as soon as the trade went through.

That is what I meant about signing a contract with "tradeable terms" and that is why a second contract is generally signed with the acquiring team.

The NFL also passed some exceptions at one time for "sign to trade" transactions, but to be honest with you I don't remember if that was under the old CBA or the current one.

[sharpe1027]

Ok, you were typing this response while I was mine...

Are you sure of this? Once a tender has been offered, is the team still allowed to negotiate with the player before he signs that tender?

There are some rules about the tag, and I remember teams getting in trouble for bending them in the past. IIRC once you sign a tagged player, you are then free to negotiate a longer term contract. If you do, the player is no longer under the tag, and you can use it again. Some team got in trouble because the league decided they'd negotiated a long term deal with a player during some time period they weren't allowed to.


I think so. Remember that the RFA signings end before the URFA signings. Maybe the teams you remember getting into trouble where teams negotiating with restricted free agents during the URFA-only period?



See, I'm not so sure about this either, if I understand you correctly. Are you saying the player signs a contract (other than the tender) with the trading team? I can't see how this works, because that contract would have a signing bonus...which would be accelerated into the trading team's cap as soon as the trade went through.

I agree, unless there is some trick to have the signing bonus contingent on the trade, so that it would be paid by the second team. My guess is that are ways to get to whatever end result they want. :)

[Patler]

There are lots of things that can be done, for example:

Have a roster bonus that is due after the trade. It counts nothing against the trading team. Then, after the trade, the acquiring team guarantees the roster bonus, which results in it being treated like a signing bonus for cap purposes.

[sharpe1027]

There are lots of things that can be done, for example:

Have a roster bonus that is due after the trade. It counts nothing against the trading team. Then, after the trade, the acquiring team guarantees the roster bonus, which results in it being treated like a signing bonus for cap purposes.

I didn't think roster bonuses were pro-rated though...

[Guiness]

What often happens is that the terms of the trade are agreed on between the teams. The acquiring team then negotiates a contract with the player, and the player signs a contract with his former team that has tradeable terms consistent with the terms he has negotiated with the new team. This is often just a formality, but it is that contract that is traded to the new team.

See, I'm not so sure about this either, if I understand you correctly. Are you saying the player signs a contract (other than the tender) with the trading team? I can't see how this works, because that contract would have a signing bonus...which would be accelerated into the trading team's cap as soon as the trade went through.

That is what I meant about signing a contract with "tradeable terms" and that is why a second contract is generally signed with the acquiring team.

The NFL also passed some exceptions at one time for "sign to trade" transactions, but to be honest with you I don't remember if that was under the old CBA or the current one.

That's what I thought you meant about tradeable terms.

That would involve a reasonable level of trust between the player and the trading team though. And considering the player is on his way out, I can't see that being there. The player is essentially putting his name on a contract he wants nothing to do with...if I were him, I'd be concerned the team would try and hold me to it.

But maybe this is what goes on, and I've just never heard of it. I'd love to see some examples of how this is done. Did CW sign a contract outside of the franchise tender with GB before heading off to Cleveland last year?

[Guiness]

There are lots of things that can be done, for example:

Have a roster bonus that is due after the trade. It counts nothing against the trading team. Then, after the trade, the acquiring team guarantees the roster bonus, which results in it being treated like a signing bonus for cap purposes.

I didn't think roster bonuses were pro-rated though...

If it is guaranteed before it is due, it can be (is?) pro-rated.

Forgot about that one Patler. This still has a player signing a contract with little or no SB, but it could be done this way.

[Patler]

There are lots of things that can be done, for example:

Have a roster bonus that is due after the trade. It counts nothing against the trading team. Then, after the trade, the acquiring team guarantees the roster bonus, which results in it being treated like a signing bonus for cap purposes.

I didn't think roster bonuses were pro-rated though...

As Guiness stated, by guaranteeing the roster bonus it is treated like a signing bonus. Teams do this quite often to gain cap space.

[sharpe1027]

There are lots of things that can be done, for example:

Have a roster bonus that is due after the trade. It counts nothing against the trading team. Then, after the trade, the acquiring team guarantees the roster bonus, which results in it being treated like a signing bonus for cap purposes.

I didn't think roster bonuses were pro-rated though...

If it is guaranteed before it is due, it can be (is?) pro-rated.

Forgot about that one Patler. This still has a player signing a contract with little or no SB, but it could be done this way.

If it is guaranteed then, by definition, it is not a roster bonus. Right? *edit* Never mind, google helped cure my ignorance. Prorated if:
roster bonus is earned or paid before preseason training camp;
reporting bonuses where the contract is signed after the start of training camp; or
roster bonuses where the contract was signed after the last preseason game.

[Patler]

There are lots of things that can be done, for example:

Have a roster bonus that is due after the trade. It counts nothing against the trading team. Then, after the trade, the acquiring team guarantees the roster bonus, which results in it being treated like a signing bonus for cap purposes.

I didn't think roster bonuses were pro-rated though...

If it is guaranteed before it is due, it can be (is?) pro-rated.

Forgot about that one Patler. This still has a player signing a contract with little or no SB, but it could be done this way.

If it is guaranteed then, by definition, it is not a roster bonus. Right?

it's all in the timing. Teams do this very, very frequently. When the contract is signed, it may contain a roster bonus in year 2, 3, etc. In year 2 or 3 they can guarantee it before it is paid, and thereafter it is treated as a signing bonus.

In my hypothetical, team A franchises the player, and negotiates a trade with team B. Team B negotiates terms with the player, including $15M bonus now. Team A signs a contract with Player that includes a $15M roster bonus due June 1. They execute the trade before June 1. The roster bonus is not yet due, so it counts nothing against Team A's salary cap. Immediately after the trade, Team B guarantees the roster bonus. Player is assured of getting it, and it is now treated as a signing bonus for cap purposes against Team B.

[vince]

That's exactly what the Packers, Browns and Corey Williams did last year - on the first day of free agency period I believe.

[SnakeLH2006]

Fritz likes how Snake refers to himself in the third person.

It's working for the Snakester.

i was going to ask the same thing. What's up with that?

Although Snake feels very intellectual, on forums when scholars like Patler and Waldo go head to head, Snake feels best to use third person, so if anything Snake says is questioned, Snake can say Snake said that, while I, the poster, can breathe easier.

BTW, Fritz, Snake was looking forward to a youtube clip on drunken parade floats..what's up with that? :lol:

Snake does think that the uncapped year will lead to some interesting contract situations with trades, salaries, etc. much like the NBA has become a farce with player movement. Some very good discussion thus far, as Waldo and Patler have once again enlightened Snake with some interesting tidbits on FA and the uncapped saga to come.

Also, Snake is preferential to Mothra....and Mecha-Godzilla. How can you fuck with perfect robotic Godzilla or a massive moth that shoots laser beams?? That's why Patler and Waldo have such good credentials thus far..who wants to mess with that? Snakes are smart, but not enough to mess with robot dinosaurs and laser-shooting giant moths. :shock: :D