STICKING TO THE PLAN

[Bretsky]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/41244677.html

[Bretsky]

Lori fluffy Nickel paints a very good picture
but
The part that jumped out at me was Fan Fest was not sold out


I don't think I ever recall it not selling out early

[cpk1994]

Lori fluffy Nickel paints a very good picture
but
The part that jumped out at me was Fan Fest was not sold out


I don't think I ever recall it not selling out earlyWell, I think the economy and people spending less right now has something to do with it.

[packrulz]

There's no great players in free agency anyway, not unrestricted. M3 says the 2009 season starts Monday: http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090313/PKR01/90313197/1058

[Joemailman]

Lori fluffy Nickel paints a very good picture
but
The part that jumped out at me was Fan Fest was not sold out


I don't think I ever recall it not selling out earlyWell, I think the economy and people spending less right now has something to do with it.

You don't think the recession is TT's fault?

[ND72]

and the fact fan fest is now $85 is rediculous. I went the first 2 years at $40 a crack, and would easily spend between $200-$300 both weekends. All they do is give you "coupons" on % off the pro shop, so any idiot goes, OK, I'll spend a ton and get more off...just like me. Plus, while you're there, you might as well eat there...so that's another easy $40 a day just for 1 person.

[KYPack]

I'd be a lot more fired up if the plan was always right. But the "plan" got us lost in the Woods last year. That doesn't bother Lori Nickel, but it worries me some.

One part of the plan that makes me nervous the whole "kids, kids, kids, grow from within" deal.

Look at the DB's. Williams is holding us up for money and Jarrett Bush will get a million a year from us or Tenn. They have the time in and are going to get the best deal. Williams will get a couple mil a year or so, if we sign him. Bush will get a mil a year. We have to lay out good money to retain both players. Meanwhile, NE just signed Leigh Bodden for $750,000, the beloved veterans minimum for a player of his time and grade.

Leigh Bodden is a comparable player to Williams. He is a much better corner than Bush, doesn't play safety and isn't a ST guy. We could have had a reasonable solution to this problem by signing Bodden and Bush. Let Williams walk and we have two back-up CB's for under two million per year. We won't because Thompson's vision of the plan is to retain his own at all costs. (This ain't no Anti-TT rap here, now).

Sometimes, a vet FA is a better alternative than the "plan". We should get talent from all the streams available. I think it's OK that we don't get "stupid money" vet FA's. But we should get more value FA's. As you can guess, I've always like Leigh Bodden. He's a good young troop. A vet player who got screwed by being with dumb organizations. It isn't his fault that he played for Savage's Browns and Millen's Lions.

NE is the team that uses the value vet FA market the best. They grow their own, but sign vet FA's and make smart trades. I'd like to see us keep our overall approach, but be clever in all areas. Our reluctance to make a deal or sign a value vet is hurting us.

[Bretsky]

I'd be a lot more fired up if the plan was always right. But the "plan" got us lost in the Woods last year. That doesn't bother Lori Nickel, but it worries me some.

One part of the plan that makes me nervous the whole "kids, kids, kids, grow from within" deal.

Look at the DB's. Williams is holding us up for money and Jarrett Bush will get a million a year from us or Tenn. They have the time in and are going to get the best deal. Williams will get a couple mil a year or so, if we sign him. Bush will get a mil a year. We have to lay out good money to retain both players. Meanwhile, NE just signed Leigh Bodden for $750,000, the beloved veterans minimum for a player of his time and grade.

Leigh Bodden is a comparable player to Williams. He is a much better corner than Bush, doesn't play safety and isn't a ST guy. We could have had a reasonable solution to this problem by signing Bodden and Bush. Let Williams walk and we have two back-up CB's for under two million per year. We won't because Thompson's vision of the plan is to retain his own at all costs. (This ain't no Anti-TT rap here, now).

Sometimes, a vet FA is a better alternative than the "plan". We should get talent from all the streams available. I think it's OK that we don't get "stupid money" vet FA's. But we should get more value FA's. As you can guess, I've always like Leigh Bodden. He's a good young troop. A vet player who got screwed by being with dumb organizations. It isn't his fault that he played for Savage's Browns and Millen's Lions.

NE is the team that uses the value vet FA market the best. They grow their own, but sign vet FA's and make smart trades. I'd like to see us keep our overall approach, but be clever in all areas. Our reluctance to make a deal or sign a value vet is hurting us.


One of best posts I've read in a while

:bclap: :knll: :wave:

[Packnut]

I'd be a lot more fired up if the plan was always right. But the "plan" got us lost in the Woods last year. That doesn't bother Lori Nickel, but it worries me some.

One part of the plan that makes me nervous the whole "kids, kids, kids, grow from within" deal.

Look at the DB's. Williams is holding us up for money and Jarrett Bush will get a million a year from us or Tenn. They have the time in and are going to get the best deal. Williams will get a couple mil a year or so, if we sign him. Bush will get a mil a year. We have to lay out good money to retain both players. Meanwhile, NE just signed Leigh Bodden for $750,000, the beloved veterans minimum for a player of his time and grade.

Leigh Bodden is a comparable player to Williams. He is a much better corner than Bush, doesn't play safety and isn't a ST guy. We could have had a reasonable solution to this problem by signing Bodden and Bush. Let Williams walk and we have two back-up CB's for under two million per year. We won't because Thompson's vision of the plan is to retain his own at all costs. (This ain't no Anti-TT rap here, now).

Sometimes, a vet FA is a better alternative than the "plan". We should get talent from all the streams available. I think it's OK that we don't get "stupid money" vet FA's. But we should get more value FA's. As you can guess, I've always like Leigh Bodden. He's a good young troop. A vet player who got screwed by being with dumb organizations. It isn't his fault that he played for Savage's Browns and Millen's Lions.

NE is the team that uses the value vet FA market the best. They grow their own, but sign vet FA's and make smart trades. I'd like to see us keep our overall approach, but be clever in all areas. Our reluctance to make a deal or sign a value vet is hurting us.


One of best posts I've read in a while

:bclap: :knll: :wave:


Yep

[Patler]

Sometimes, a vet FA is a better alternative than the "plan". We should get talent from all the streams available.

You mean like signing Chiller instead of waiting for Hodge to develop??? :) :)

[red]

I'd be a lot more fired up if the plan was always right. But the "plan" got us lost in the Woods last year. That doesn't bother Lori Nickel, but it worries me some.

One part of the plan that makes me nervous the whole "kids, kids, kids, grow from within" deal.

Look at the DB's. Williams is holding us up for money and Jarrett Bush will get a million a year from us or Tenn. They have the time in and are going to get the best deal. Williams will get a couple mil a year or so, if we sign him. Bush will get a mil a year. We have to lay out good money to retain both players. Meanwhile, NE just signed Leigh Bodden for $750,000, the beloved veterans minimum for a player of his time and grade.

Leigh Bodden is a comparable player to Williams. He is a much better corner than Bush, doesn't play safety and isn't a ST guy. We could have had a reasonable solution to this problem by signing Bodden and Bush. Let Williams walk and we have two back-up CB's for under two million per year. We won't because Thompson's vision of the plan is to retain his own at all costs. (This ain't no Anti-TT rap here, now).

Sometimes, a vet FA is a better alternative than the "plan". We should get talent from all the streams available. I think it's OK that we don't get "stupid money" vet FA's. But we should get more value FA's. As you can guess, I've always like Leigh Bodden. He's a good young troop. A vet player who got screwed by being with dumb organizations. It isn't his fault that he played for Savage's Browns and Millen's Lions.

NE is the team that uses the value vet FA market the best. They grow their own, but sign vet FA's and make smart trades. I'd like to see us keep our overall approach, but be clever in all areas. Our reluctance to make a deal or sign a value vet is hurting us.


One of best posts I've read in a while

:bclap: :knll: :wave:

yup, great post ky

[KYPack]

Sometimes, a vet FA is a better alternative than the "plan". We should get talent from all the streams available.

You mean like signing Chiller instead of waiting for Hodge to develop??? :) :)

Yeah.

I equate signing Bodden and letting Williams walk a similar move. I'd really would've liked signing Bodden, paying Williams and letting Bush walk. Bush is a ST terror, but a man with no position on D. He's a weak corner and a mediocre safety.

[Bretsky]

Sometimes, a vet FA is a better alternative than the "plan". We should get talent from all the streams available.

You mean like signing Chiller instead of waiting for Hodge to develop??? :) :)


and Frank Walker for.........aaaaaaa :lol:

of forget it

[Packnut]

Sometimes, a vet FA is a better alternative than the "plan". We should get talent from all the streams available.

You mean like signing Chiller instead of waiting for Hodge to develop??? :) :)

Gee, May-be Hodge was a lousy pick to begin with? IF you draft a good LB with that 3rd pick, then you have no need to sign Chiller. Then you could have spent that money on a position of weakness elsewhere..

I fail to understand why the snow-ball theory is a difficult concept for some. When you miss on a high draft pick, it creates a dominoe effect. Now you have to cover the bad move with another move.

That is why I'm so critical of failed choices. I just don't shrugg it off and say "oh well, ya can't be right on every pick". I see the bigger picture and how bad moves by a GM trickle down. One impact player in 4 seasons is a very poor record and foolish to defend.

That said, Rogers is the wild card. IF he developes into an impact player, then Teddy's draft record improves from abysmal to a tad above ok.

[Patler]

Gee, May-be Hodge was a lousy pick to begin with? IF you draft a good LB with that 3rd pick, then you have no need to sign Chiller. Then you could have spent that money on a position of weakness elsewhere..

I fail to understand why the snow-ball theory is a difficult concept for some. When you miss on a high draft pick, it creates a dominoe effect. Now you have to cover the bad move with another move.

That is why I'm so critical of failed choices. I just don't shrugg it off and say "oh well, ya can't be right on every pick". I see the bigger picture and how bad moves by a GM trickle down. One impact player in 4 seasons is a very poor record and foolish to defend.

That said, Rogers is the wild card. IF he developes into an impact player, then Teddy's draft record improves from abysmal to a tad above ok.

Well of course Hodge was a lousy pick to begin with. Any player who flops is a lousy pick. You are apparently missing the point of discussion, whether TT puts too much into waiting for his picks to develop rather than finding a FA alternative. I simply point out at least one time that he went with the FA alternative.

Do you really expect every pick every year to turn out the way it is hoped? That is unrealistic.

[Bretsky]

Sometimes, a vet FA is a better alternative than the "plan". We should get talent from all the streams available.

You mean like signing Chiller instead of waiting for Hodge to develop??? :) :)

Gee, May-be Hodge was a lousy pick to begin with? IF you draft a good LB with that 3rd pick, then you have no need to sign Chiller. Then you could have spent that money on a position of weakness elsewhere..

I fail to understand why the snow-ball theory is a difficult concept for some. When you miss on a high draft pick, it creates a dominoe effect. Now you have to cover the bad move with another move.

That is why I'm so critical of failed choices. I just don't shrugg it off and say "oh well, ya can't be right on every pick". I see the bigger picture and how bad moves by a GM trickle down. One impact player in 4 seasons is a very poor record and foolish to defend.

That said, Rogers is the wild card. IF he developes into an impact player, then Teddy's draft record improves from abysmal to a tad above ok.


I have a hard time saying his draft record is abysmal

Up to this point
He has produced one star in Jennings
Odds are rising stars in Rodgers and Nick Collins
A decent player in Hawk
Wild Cards that could turn well above average in Spitz, Colledge
And some To be Determined's

At this point there don't seem to be many abysmal picks....maybe Harrell, Hodge (who most in here liked), Lee.

[Patler]

I fail to understand why the snow-ball theory is a difficult concept for some. When you miss on a high draft pick, it creates a dominoe effect. Now you have to cover the bad move with another move.


So is it the "snowball theory" or the "dominoe effect"? :lol: :lol:

[Joemailman]

Sometimes, a vet FA is a better alternative than the "plan". We should get talent from all the streams available.

You mean like signing Chiller instead of waiting for Hodge to develop??? :) :)

Gee, May-be Hodge was a lousy pick to begin with? IF you draft a good LB with that 3rd pick, then you have no need to sign Chiller. Then you could have spent that money on a position of weakness elsewhere..

I fail to understand why the snow-ball theory is a difficult concept for some. When you miss on a high draft pick, it creates a dominoe effect. Now you have to cover the bad move with another move.

That is why I'm so critical of failed choices. I just don't shrugg it off and say "oh well, ya can't be right on every pick". I see the bigger picture and how bad moves by a GM trickle down. One impact player in 4 seasons is a very poor record and foolish to defend.

That said, Rogers is the wild card. IF he developes into an impact player, then Teddy's draft record improves from abysmal to a tad above ok.

I think you're basing too much of your critique of TT on failed draft choices. Ron Wolf drafted Terrell Buckley, George Teague, John Michels, Antuan Edwards, and Jamal Reynolds in the 1st round. Derrick Mayes and Mark D'Onofrio in the 2nd round. Everybody has their big time misses.

I'm not sure what to make of TT's performance thus far. Part of me thinks he hasn't done enough to fill the holes in the roster. Part of me thinks the development of the young players he's brought in has been hampered by what was a mediocre coaching staff, especially on the defensive side. What are the Packers? Are they an 8-8 team, a 13-3 team, or a 6-10 team? I think we're about to find out.

[Patler]

Sometimes, a vet FA is a better alternative than the "plan". We should get talent from all the streams available.
You mean like signing Chiller instead of waiting for Hodge to develop??? :) :)

and Frank Walker for.........aaaaaaa :lol:

of forget it

So true! :lol:

Yet, old Frank was starting for the Ravens at the end of the '08 season. He never got much of a chance in GB. I'm not sure why they even signed him. He never seemed to fit into their plans.

[mission]

Im actually more surprised that 3100 idiots paid $85 to hear TT/M3 talk about nothing ... someone is bankin off chumps. Do the math on that. :lol:

[bobblehead]

Sometimes, a vet FA is a better alternative than the "plan". We should get talent from all the streams available.

You mean like signing Chiller instead of waiting for Hodge to develop??? :) :)

One of the best posts I've read in awhile. I'll skip all the clappy hands, but I was thinking the exact same thing while reading KY's rap.

[bobblehead]

That is why I'm so critical of failed choices. I just don't shrugg it off and say "oh well, ya can't be right on every pick". I see the bigger picture and how bad moves by a GM trickle down. One impact player in 4 seasons is a very poor record and foolish to defend.



I think you are being unrealistic. Many choices will fail. You have to look at the body of work. This is a make or break year for TT. HIs first 2 drafts have had enough time to develope. We must win 9 games minimum this season or you can start to question his ability to hit on players. I will always defend his WAY of building a team, I believe its the best way. The only question at this point is, does he have the eye to pick out players or not. This season tells the tail.

[cpk1994]

That is why I'm so critical of failed choices. I just don't shrugg it off and say "oh well, ya can't be right on every pick". I see the bigger picture and how bad moves by a GM trickle down. One impact player in 4 seasons is a very poor record and foolish to defend.



I think you are being unrealistic. Many choices will fail. You have to look at the body of work. This is a make or break year for TT. HIs first 2 drafts have had enough time to develope. We must win 9 games minimum this season or you can start to question his ability to hit on players. I will always defend his WAY of building a team, I believe its the best way. The only question at this point is, does he have the eye to pick out players or not. This season tells the tail.I agree. And your post should end this thread becuase thats all that needs to be said.

[Fred's Slacks]

That is why I'm so critical of failed choices. I just don't shrugg it off and say "oh well, ya can't be right on every pick". I see the bigger picture and how bad moves by a GM trickle down. One impact player in 4 seasons is a very poor record and foolish to defend.



I think you are being unrealistic. Many choices will fail. You have to look at the body of work. This is a make or break year for TT. HIs first 2 drafts have had enough time to develope. We must win 9 games minimum this season or you can start to question his ability to hit on players. I will always defend his WAY of building a team, I believe its the best way. The only question at this point is, does he have the eye to pick out players or not. This season tells the tail.

Agreed. Couldn't of said it better.

[The Shadow]

The plan is a sound one. Support it 100%.

[texaspackerbacker]

I'd be a lot more fired up if the plan was always right. But the "plan" got us lost in the Woods last year. That doesn't bother Lori Nickel, but it worries me some.

One part of the plan that makes me nervous the whole "kids, kids, kids, grow from within" deal.

Look at the DB's. Williams is holding us up for money and Jarrett Bush will get a million a year from us or Tenn. They have the time in and are going to get the best deal. Williams will get a couple mil a year or so, if we sign him. Bush will get a mil a year. We have to lay out good money to retain both players. Meanwhile, NE just signed Leigh Bodden for $750,000, the beloved veterans minimum for a player of his time and grade.

Leigh Bodden is a comparable player to Williams. He is a much better corner than Bush, doesn't play safety and isn't a ST guy. We could have had a reasonable solution to this problem by signing Bodden and Bush. Let Williams walk and we have two back-up CB's for under two million per year. We won't because Thompson's vision of the plan is to retain his own at all costs. (This ain't no Anti-TT rap here, now).

Sometimes, a vet FA is a better alternative than the "plan". We should get talent from all the streams available. I think it's OK that we don't get "stupid money" vet FA's. But we should get more value FA's. As you can guess, I've always like Leigh Bodden. He's a good young troop. A vet player who got screwed by being with dumb organizations. It isn't his fault that he played for Savage's Browns and Millen's Lions.

NE is the team that uses the value vet FA market the best. They grow their own, but sign vet FA's and make smart trades. I'd like to see us keep our overall approach, but be clever in all areas. Our reluctance to make a deal or sign a value vet is hurting us.

I'm not gonna say it was a bad post. It's better than what most of the professionals write.

Just the same, I disagree with your basic premise. The Packers are one of the very most successful teams over the last couple of decades doing what they do--what Lori said--doing VERY little messing around with free agents from elsewhere/building from within.

I like it like that.

[KYPack]

I'm not gonna say it was a bad post. It's better than what most of the professionals write.

Just the same, I disagree with your basic premise. The Packers are one of the very most successful teams over the last couple of decades doing what they do--what Lori said--doing VERY little messing around with free agents from elsewhere/building from within.

I like it like that.

Well, back at ya, Lone Star.

Our victorious SB team had Reggie White, Sean Jones, Gilbert Brown, Brett Favre, and Santana Dotson on it. All were the result of trades, marquee free agent signings, and value FA pick-ups. We did it then and we can do it now. I'm all for building for the draft, but that ain't the only way to get it done.

Thompson is great at drafting players, managing the cap, and building a team.

He needs to add personnel thru all available channels.

We need some CB help. Leigh Bodden should have been pursued and signed if possible. NE gets him for the minimum? I don't like that one little bit and I don't care what anybody says about it. We should have pursued a solid hand like Leigh. That's a value FA that we need to chase and land on our roster.

[Fritz]

In the vernacular, KY, sounds like you got a boner for Bodden.

So is this post more a result of your admiration of Leigh Bodden's skills (that'd be more my vernacular) and the fact that TT didn't pay him to replace Williams or Bush, or is it simply pointing out that TT leans too much toward development from within?

I can't quite puzzle this one out.

[Brando19]

Sometimes, a vet FA is a better alternative than the "plan". We should get talent from all the streams available.
You mean like signing Chiller instead of waiting for Hodge to develop??? :) :)

and Frank Walker for.........aaaaaaa :lol:

of forget it

So true! :lol:

Yet, old Frank was starting for the Ravens at the end of the '08 season. He never got much of a chance in GB. I'm not sure why they even signed him. He never seemed to fit into their plans.

Didn't Frank start because of injuries to the starters?

[KYPack]

In the vernacular, KY, sounds like you got a boner for Bodden.

So is this post more a result of your admiration of Leigh Bodden's skills (that'd be more my vernacular) and the fact that TT didn't pay him to replace Williams or Bush, or is it simply pointing out that TT leans too much toward development from within?

I can't quite puzzle this one out.

Both, I guess Fritz. I've always thought Bodden was a good young hand. I can't say I saw him play a lot last season, but he was Cleveland's young gun at CB. Then he goes to Detroit in the Rogers trade. Next he's on the waiver wire. NE gets him for the Vet min. That means nobody bid a dime, Other than Billy B. I'm pissed about that.

I don't think we are getting our fair share of value vet FA's. Bodden is exhibit A, but I'd imagine there are others. We should get talent from all available sources and TT is focused on retaining only our young uns. This little scrape with the reserve CB's shows how this won't always work. Williams will probably cost us 1.5 - 2 million a year. Bush for a mil. So growin' your own can be pretty cost prohibitive, too.

I want us to adopt the NE model. Get talent where it is available. Need a WR? Trade for Moss. Need an all-purpose guy to play multiple positions on D? Sign Adalis Thomas, a marquee FA. Need a vet back-up CB? sign Bodden off the waiver wire. Back-up QB? Draft matt Cassell and wind up with a #2 pick out of it.

They can do it, let's us give it a whirl.

[Merlin]

KY - Spot on.

We had better get used to "up and coming" players holding us for ransom. One of the drawbacks of having so many young players is that if a lot of them turn out to be something, or could be something, eventually you will have to pay them something and we are coming full circle on this. This year, next year, the year after, it will never end as long as you refuse to bring in anyone that can actually play, Woodson not withstanding. Some of us warned about this whole approach way back when Thompson took over and look at where we are now, just where many of us said we would be. We all "hoped" it would be different but unfortunately it is not. Switching to the 3-4 buys Thompson a few more years of mediocrity because the argument will be that "change" takes time.

[SnakeLH2006]

That is why I'm so critical of failed choices. I just don't shrugg it off and say "oh well, ya can't be right on every pick". I see the bigger picture and how bad moves by a GM trickle down. One impact player in 4 seasons is a very poor record and foolish to defend.



I think you are being unrealistic. Many choices will fail. You have to look at the body of work. This is a make or break year for TT. HIs first 2 drafts have had enough time to develope. We must win 9 games minimum this season or you can start to question his ability to hit on players. I will always defend his WAY of building a team, I believe its the best way. The only question at this point is, does he have the eye to pick out players or not. This season tells the tail.I agree. And your post should end this thread becuase thats all that needs to be said.

Holy shit...Snake's not even drunk yet and he agrees with your post. That's twice in a week?!!:shock: Snake fears the Rapture. It's coming I tell ya! :shock: :cry:

[gex]

TT's an average GM.... his win-loss record points towards being a below average one at that....Diehard fans on Lions forums were also raving about how good MM was and that NEXT year would prove that his way was the right way... :shock: LOL

[SnakeLH2006]

TT's an average GM.... his win-loss record points towards being a below average one at that....Diehard fans on Lions forums were also raving about how good MM was and that NEXT year would prove that his way was the right way... :shock: LOL

Text link or it's not true.

Snake has it on lock from Joe Arrigo that those Lions "fans" (if that is a term) don't drink Kool-Aid but liquid acid to form that opinion.

[Fritz]

KY - Spot on.

We had better get used to "up and coming" players holding us for ransom. One of the drawbacks of having so many young players is that if a lot of them turn out to be something, or could be something, eventually you will have to pay them something and we are coming full circle on this. This year, next year, the year after, it will never end as long as you refuse to bring in anyone that can actually play, Woodson not withstanding. Some of us warned about this whole approach way back when Thompson took over and look at where we are now, just where many of us said we would be. We all "hoped" it would be different but unfortunately it is not. Switching to the 3-4 buys Thompson a few more years of mediocrity because the argument will be that "change" takes time.

I'll use Merlin's post as a way of responding to KY. I see now that you've used Bodden as an example, so I understand better what you're advocating. I was less inclined to agree with you until I read the italicized line above from Merlin's post. It got me to thinking: traditionally, you keep your young guys because the ones who develop can be retained through their prime years. However, one or two promising-but-not-stone-cold-convincing seasons may give players and their agents the idea that they need to be paid big money sooner than their free agent status (or lack thereof) might allow. Grant and Williams might be cases-in-point.

Thus, TT's stick-to-the-young-'uns philosophy might be encouraging the up-and-comers to hold out sooner than they might otherwise. And as Merlin's line above suggests, in some cases the team might not really even be yet sure what it is they have. That puts the team in a vulnerabale position - do we pay a guy some big money, or fairly big money, based on promise and devel;opment, knowing we're still not quite sure what we have, or do we let some walk or hold out, knowing that we may have developed a Pro Bowl player for someone else to then pick up and use in his prime?

Hmm. You might be onto something, KY. I wonder what Patler, Waldo, Lurk, others might think.

I already know what you think, Bretsky!

[Fritz]

On another front - same idea, sticking to the plan - here's a Thompson quote from Nickel;'s article: "There were a few things that we tried that were a little crazy that just didn't work out"

Hmm...I wonder what Ted would think was something that was "a little crazy."

Having Mckenzie even call Canty's agent?

Allowing himself, in private, in the middle of the night when no one was around, to wonder what it would be like to make an offer to Olshansky?

Calling Carolina to find out what they would want for Peppers?

Hmm...Ted, that crazy guy.

[Joemailman]

I'm guessing MM was referring to the idea of actually wanting to meet Canty in person before offering him tens of millions of dollars.

[wist43]

On another front - same idea, sticking to the plan - here's a Thompson quote from Nickel;'s article: "There were a few things that we tried that were a little crazy that just didn't work out"

Hmm...I wonder what Ted would think was something that was "a little crazy."

Having Mckenzie even call Canty's agent?

Allowing himself, in private, in the middle of the night when no one was around, to wonder what it would be like to make an offer to Olshansky?

Calling Carolina to find out what they would want for Peppers?

Hmm...Ted, that crazy guy.

He had a nightmare that he tried to move up in the draft... woke up in a cold sweat, ran to the bathroom, splashed some water on his face, and realized it was all a bad dream :D

[KYPack]

On another front - same idea, sticking to the plan - here's a Thompson quote from Nickel;'s article: "There were a few things that we tried that were a little crazy that just didn't work out"

Hmm...I wonder what Ted would think was something that was "a little crazy."

Having Mckenzie even call Canty's agent?

Allowing himself, in private, in the middle of the night when no one was around, to wonder what it would be like to make an offer to Olshansky?

Calling Carolina to find out what they would want for Peppers?

Hmm...Ted, that crazy guy.

Fritz, guess you kinda answered your own question. I don't want this to lapse into the usual anti-TT drivel. The plan is largely working. This from the site "Mocking the Draft" analyzing the Packers last 3 drafts ...

These 12 guys [the players drafted in the 1st three rounds in 2006, 2007, and 2008] have played in 314 of a possible 432 games, which is 72.9%. This is the highest we've seen yet. I'm gonna guess this is one of the better percentages in the league, especially with how well they did in 2006.



More about "the plan", this kinda set me back....

"McCarthy said Monday was a key date for the team, as the Packers begin the off season conditioning period. Last year the Packers had 90% attendance for their off season programs and considered the off season work very successful.

"That's something I want to maintain again this off season," McCarthy said."

The Packers considered the off season work very successful, eh?

Our ST's were a disaster, we finished 6-10, and we fired the strength coach and got a new guy who can crack the whip on weight training. Where in that is a successful off season program? Was it successful 'cause everybody completed it, er what?

[Fritz]

i think, KY, that MM might mean that the participation level was excellent and that the players bought into it. Those are important factors for McCarthy.

As to my guesses to what might be considered "crazy" by TT, you know by now I am a proponent of Thompson's way of doing things, so I wanted to have some fun. However, I also wondered if maybe there were some feelers put out that we never learned about. I'm thinking of the Peppers thing - there was one JSO blog, I think, that mentioned whispers of GB being genuinely interested in Peppers.

This leads me to a question: would he play DE or linebacker in a 3-4 scheme? I know little about the guy.

[texaspackerbacker]

I'm not gonna say it was a bad post. It's better than what most of the professionals write.

Just the same, I disagree with your basic premise. The Packers are one of the very most successful teams over the last couple of decades doing what they do--what Lori said--doing VERY little messing around with free agents from elsewhere/building from within.

I like it like that.

Well, back at ya, Lone Star.

Our victorious SB team had Reggie White, Sean Jones, Gilbert Brown, Brett Favre, and Santana Dotson on it. All were the result of trades, marquee free agent signings, and value FA pick-ups. We did it then and we can do it now. I'm all for building for the draft, but that ain't the only way to get it done.

Thompson is great at drafting players, managing the cap, and building a team.

He needs to add personnel thru all available channels.

We need some CB help. Leigh Bodden should have been pursued and signed if possible. NE gets him for the minimum? I don't like that one little bit and I don't care what anybody says about it. We should have pursued a solid hand like Leigh. That's a value FA that we need to chase and land on our roster.

I see your point about Favre, Reggie, and a few others. My point is, though, that the big name signings have been few and far between, and therefore pretty successful/well thought out/whatever. That has been the consistent Packer way all the way from Thompson to Sherman to Thompson.

Some of those you mentioned were cheap free agents. We've always signed our share of those. That along with usually signing and keeping our own are what I like--rather than alwasy seeing what we don't have as better than what we do have,

As for Bodden, I honestly don't know that much about him, but I really don't think we NEED help at Corner. We have five who should be excellent, as well as Bush as the sixth best.

[Pugger]

I'm not gonna say it was a bad post. It's better than what most of the professionals write.

Just the same, I disagree with your basic premise. The Packers are one of the very most successful teams over the last couple of decades doing what they do--what Lori said--doing VERY little messing around with free agents from elsewhere/building from within.

I like it like that.

Well, back at ya, Lone Star.

Our victorious SB team had Reggie White, Sean Jones, Gilbert Brown, Brett Favre, and Santana Dotson on it. All were the result of trades, marquee free agent signings, and value FA pick-ups. We did it then and we can do it now. I'm all for building for the draft, but that ain't the only way to get it done.

Thompson is great at drafting players, managing the cap, and building a team.

He needs to add personnel thru all available channels.

We need some CB help. Leigh Bodden should have been pursued and signed if possible. NE gets him for the minimum? I don't like that one little bit and I don't care what anybody says about it. We should have pursued a solid hand like Leigh. That's a value FA that we need to chase and land on our roster.

However, this isn't the early 90s. You don't see players like the guys Wolf got in the FA market today. Teams tag their impact players thus taking them off the market aka Peppers. After hearing the crap about Haynesworth I'm glad TT stayed away. Canty had his heart set on NY and that Igor guy had maturity issues. So unless you hit on most of your drafts and make trades its not easy today to improve your team in short order. These changes in FA were one of the reasons Wolf retired!

[KYPack]

I see your point about Favre, Reggie, and a few others. My point is, though, that the big name signings have been few and far between, and therefore pretty successful/well thought out/whatever. That has been the consistent Packer way all the way from Thompson to Sherman to Thompson.

Some of those you mentioned were cheap free agents. We've always signed our share of those. That along with usually signing and keeping our own are what I like--rather than alwasy seeing what we don't have as better than what we do have,

As for Bodden, I honestly don't know that much about him, but I really don't think we NEED help at Corner. We have five who should be excellent, as well as Bush as the sixth best.

I imagine you meant Wolf to Sherman to Thompson. That's right, we used to get our share of the street FA's. I'm saying NOW we don't get our proper share of that personnel segment.

As to Pugger, NO, I don't wanna see us get involved in signing a bunch of big ticket, stupid money guys. I don't lamnent that we didn't get Haynesworth or Canty. I want us to get some able spear carrier guys. Players that we are missing out on now. TT does not want to sign those guys. Mainly because they have low ceilings and they will take reps and roster spots from his kids that he drafts.

I wanted to see us cut Juice Coston and sign some ugly, old street FA OL.

Why?

Because that kind of player is a better solution than the kind of player Thompson likes to keep. One of his kiddie corp that well might not pan out.

It's hurting us and it needs to change.

[Waldo]

Why be critical of an unfinished product?

Complain all you want about his methods as an armchair GM (it's fun :lol: ), nobody is right or wrong until the leaves begin to change.

One thing to remember about Ted, he has 10000x the information at his disposal than everyone on this board combined, via a self scout, FA scout, prospects scout, coaches take, $$ projections, etc....

The only difference between ineptitude and genius is the final record, the methodology is unimportant. Complaining over spilled milk before the carton is even opened is rather pointless.

[GrnBay007]

Complaining over spilled milk before the carton is even opened is rather pointless.

How many years do we have to wait to open the carton? :D

[Waldo]

Complaining over spilled milk before the carton is even opened is rather pointless.

How many years do we have to wait to open the carton? :D

It opens the same time every year, the weekend after Labor Day.

[KYPack]

Why be critical of an unfinished product?

Complain all you want about his methods as an armchair GM (it's fun :lol: ), nobody is right or wrong until the leaves begin to change.

One thing to remember about Ted, he has 10000x the information at his disposal than everyone on this board combined, via a self scout, FA scout, prospects scout, coaches take, $$ projections, etc....

The only difference between ineptitude and genius is the final record, the methodology is unimportant. Complaining over spilled milk before the carton is even opened is rather pointless.

Well, on one hand you are 100% right. Any good NFL GM (Which I basically think Thompson is) has the experience, expertise, knowlege, and resources to far eclipse anything the armchair bunch [me] has or might have.

I know Thompson has the smarts and the tools to be a far better shopper than any of us mortals out here possess. I just don't think he is willing to go down all the aisles in the supermarket.

[Waldo]

This type of discussion always centers around 2 fundamental questions.

Are we bad?

Why are we bad?

The answer to the first is simple. Our record stunk last year, yes, we were bad.

To answer the second one, IMO we had 3 primary weaknesses and 4 secondary ones last season, not including any injury issues.

Primarily:
Our Defensive Coaching was awful. Good god, rarely do I have problems with coaching, but I had big problems with our defensive coaching last year. Quite simply there is one fundamental thing that a coordinator has to be able to do. Put his players in the best position to win. Bob simply could not. He and TT/MM have a fundamental disagreement on how things are done. Build the scheme to fit the players, or fit the players into the scheme. Jolly and Cole are not 2 gap players. Why we ran a scheme that required two 2 gap DT's, when we really only had 1 healthy and 1 injured 2 gap DT is beyond words. We didn't have the players for front 4 pressure once Jenkins went down and KGB was proven to be ineffective. Blitzing into a 2 gap scheme is not the answer. Typical things like stunts and zone blitzing isn't possible (at least effective) from the front 4 alignment Bob ran. Our guys trying to win with Bobs coaching was like trying to win the Indy 500 on flat tires.

SS depth was a big issue. After Bigby went down, we really had no SS that was an instinctive box defender. One of the primary draws of man coverage is that you can rotate the SS into the box and run blitz LB's. It worked like a charm in '07, stifling some of the leagues running powerhouses. That didn't exist in '08, by the time Bigby got back, Barnett went down and Bob never sent Hawk on run blitzes from the mike spot. He coached scared.

The punting game was terrible. Frosty the shankman will most likely go down as TT's most impactful mistake.

Secondary weaknesses.
The pass rush. With KGB's routine knee scope turning into a career ending injury and Jenkins going down to injury early, our lack of pass rusher depth was exposed. Bob's scheming did nothing but hurt the problem, but it is pretty safe to say that we could use another rusher or two.

DT depth. Our guys weren't bad, but we needed more of them, at least one more guy to rotate in. Jenkins injury was doubly devastating since he too was a rotational DT. We could definitely use so more 300lb+ defenders.

Offensive Tackles. Both OT's showed their age last year. MM erred on the side of caution, putting his most proven pass blockers on the field as his primary lineup. I'm not so sure that was the right approach, we definitely left a lot of running yards on the field with that lineup, and they showed cracks in the passing game as well. Fortunately IMO we have the players on the roster already to improve by simply adjusting the lineup, and really don't need to add more than depth in the draft.

ST play. The same group of guys took a big step backwards from '07 to '08. The coverage just wasn't very good. We'll see if new coaching is the answer, but the defensive scheme change should pay dividends via player types sought.

TT has already taken steps to address most of what I feel were the biggest issues. Bob is gone, replaced by who IMO was the best DC on the market, one who preaches fitting scheme to players and not vice versa. We've got a new SS (Smith was miscast in Pit, he's a SS not FS), and Frosty the shankman is gone, we are sure to have a spirited punting competition this year.

The pass rush wasn't getting better in FA, draft options are definitely more appealing, same with DT depth (especially at NT), though Canty was a good looking option, at nearly 7M a year though, ouch, he'd be our highest paid defender. I get the sense that without Canty on board, TT wants a DE that he can cut at the end camp if Harrell and Jolly show something, and not be locked in to keeping an inferior player by contract. The OT situation I'm not concerned about at all. IMO we can field a better lineup than we did last year without Tausher on the roster, and can go a few ways in the draft to significantly improve ourselves. ST remains to be seen, but an increase in the number of LB's on the roster and new coaching sure can't hurt.

I'm not panicking at all simply because IMO we have already significantly improved ourselves, and are in prime position in the draft to address the rest of what ailed us. If we come out of the draft with a good pass rusher (a guy that can give us pressure an 3rd and long (at least to begin with)), a solid OL (doesn't matter the position, or versatility allows a T, G, or C to improve us), a rotational NT and a rotational DE, I'll be perfectly content going into the season.

[Patler]

Why be critical of an unfinished product?

Complain all you want about his methods as an armchair GM (it's fun :lol: ), nobody is right or wrong until the leaves begin to change.

One thing to remember about Ted, he has 10000x the information at his disposal than everyone on this board combined, via a self scout, FA scout, prospects scout, coaches take, $$ projections, etc....

The only difference between ineptitude and genius is the final record, the methodology is unimportant. Complaining over spilled milk before the carton is even opened is rather pointless.

Well, on one hand you are 100% right. Any good NFL GM (Which I basically think Thompson is) has the experience, expertise, knowlege, and resources to far eclipse anything the armchair bunch [me] has or might have.

I know Thompson has the smarts and the tools to be a far better shopper than any of us mortals out here possess. I just don't think he is willing to go down all the aisles in the supermarket.

It appears TT has changed. His first couple years in GB he was fairly active in the FA market. Not only did he sign a bunch of veteran FAs (Klemm, O'Dwyer, Arturo Freeeman, Earl Little, Ray Thompson, Marquand Manuel, Kendrick Allen, Pickett, Woodson, Ben Taylor) he also brought in and/or had offers out to a bunch of others like Beisel, Womack, Vinieterri, etc.

Now, he is hardly involved. I can only guess that it is because he is more comfortable with the top 2/3 of his roster now than he was in '05-'06, and he isn't going to pay any significant money to fill in the bottom. He has to be happier with what he has than what is available, because he has shown a willingness to be a player in the FA market when he sees players he wants.

[cpk1994]

Why be critical of an unfinished product?

Complain all you want about his methods as an armchair GM (it's fun :lol: ), nobody is right or wrong until the leaves begin to change.

One thing to remember about Ted, he has 10000x the information at his disposal than everyone on this board combined, via a self scout, FA scout, prospects scout, coaches take, $$ projections, etc....

The only difference between ineptitude and genius is the final record, the methodology is unimportant. Complaining over spilled milk before the carton is even opened is rather pointless.

Well, on one hand you are 100% right. Any good NFL GM (Which I basically think Thompson is) has the experience, expertise, knowlege, and resources to far eclipse anything the armchair bunch [me] has or might have.

I know Thompson has the smarts and the tools to be a far better shopper than any of us mortals out here possess. I just don't think he is willing to go down all the aisles in the supermarket.

It appears TT has changed. His first couple years in GB he was fairly active in the FA market. Not only did he sign a bunch of veteran FAs (Klemm, O'Dwyer, Arturo Freeeman, Earl Little, Ray Thompson, Marquand Manuel, Kendrick Allen, Pickett, Woodson, Ben Taylor) he also brought in and/or had offers out to a bunch of others like Beisel, Womack, Vinieterri, etc.

Now, he is hardly involved.And I think the first two names you mention are why TT has backed off. THey were such spectacular failures that made TT somewhat gunshy, mostly more skeptical of all free agents.

[texaspackerbacker]

One small point: the lack of street free agents in recent years.

My guess is that we have had fewer of those as the depth of the team has gotten better. Also, it may just seem like less signed because less of those who are signed stick on the team due to better talent already here.

Of course, it could be that Thompson, McCarthy, and I just have the false perception that Packer players are more talented ......... but i don't think so.

[Patler]

And I think the first two names you mention are why TT has backed off. THey were such spectacular failures that made TT somewhat gunshy, mostly more skeptical of all free agents.

I wouldn't call either a spectacular failure, especially not O'Dwyer.

Nothing was really expected of O'Dwyer. He basically had a vet minimum contract, as I recall. He was simply brought in as a veteran with 100+ starts to see if he had another year left in him. He didn't, and the Packers released him a couple weeks into TC. No big deal. The guaranteed money was virtually nothing. Of course, O'Dwyer filed a grievance, arguing he was injured in camp, and I believe there was a settlement eventually.

Klemm didn't make the transition to guard that they hoped, but I think he was more of a scapegoat than the reason for the bad play of the line. Wells was no better at guard than Klemm after replacing him, and probably worse in pass protection. Klemm played some at tackle late in the year, and played well, just as he had in NE. He would have made the team as a backup tackle in 2006, but was injured and ended his career. Klemm was more expensive, but not excessively so.

I think both were reasonable chances taken by TT. Neither worked out as hoped for different reasons. At the time, most "experts" gave TT high marks for signing Klemm.

[cpk1994]

And I think the first two names you mention are why TT has backed off. THey were such spectacular failures that made TT somewhat gunshy, mostly more skeptical of all free agents.

I wouldn't call either a spectacular failure, especially not O'Dwyer.

Nothing was really expected of O'Dwyer. He basically had a vet minimum contract, as I recall. He was simply brought in as a veteran with 100+ starts to see if he had another year left in him. He didn't, and the Packers released him a couple weeks into TC. No big deal. The guaranteed money was virtually nothing. Of course, O'Dwyer filed a grievance, arguing he was injured in camp, and I believe there was a settlement eventually.

Klemm didn't make the transition to guard that they hoped, but I think he was more of a scapegoat than the reason for the bad play of the line. Wells was no better at guard than Klemm after replacing him, and probably worse in pass protection. Klemm played some at tackle late in the year, and played well, just as he had in NE. He would have made the team as a backup tackle in 2006, but was injured and ended his career. Klemm was more expensive, but not excessively so.

I think both were reasonable chances taken by TT. Neither worked out as hoped for different reasons. At the time, most "experts" gave TT high marks for signing Klemm.But when Klemm bombed, TT took major heat for it. He and O'Dwyer were pegged to start and were the direct response to not resigning Wahle and Rivera. TT is still taking heat for not resigning Wahle and Rivera. Failing with Klemm and O'Dwyer magnifies it.

[Patler]

But when Klemm bombed, TT took major heat for it. He and O'Dwyer were pegged to start and were the direct response to not resigning Wahle and Rivera. TT is still taking heat for not resigning Wahle and Rivera. Failing with Klemm and O'Dwyer magnifies it.

I agree that TT took heat for it, but unjustifiably I think. He tried to sign both Wahle and Rivera, but simply ran out of cap space to do it with when the bidding got so high. Sharper was unwilling to make changes in his contract to help out, so TT had little choice at the time but to let both leave.

TT's first choice to replace the guards was Womack, and it looked for a couple days like GB would get him. But Seattle came back with a good offer, and Womack even admitted that he didn't want to leave.

Klemm clearly was signed to be one of the starters, His conversion to guard just didn't come off as well as hoped.

Fans and even writers put a lot more into the signing of O'Dwyer than was really there. O'Dwyer himself said at the time of the signing that he just wanted an opportunity to show that he had gotten over the injuries that had kept him off the field for most of 2003 and 2004. From '96 to '02 he had started 102 of 112 games, but hardly played in either '03 or '04. Anyone who thought the signing of O'Dwyer was TT thinking O'Dwyer was a lock to be a starter was naive. The Packers had a need, O'Dwyer wanted a chance, and TT gave it to him for the vet's minimum salary.

[KYPack]

Waldo , this is a helluva analysis. You should have made it a full blown article and have Mad publish the thing. That is the story, I can't really disagree with anything you've written. My comments in bold.

Primarily:
Our Defensive Coaching was awful. Good god, rarely do I have problems with coaching, but I had big problems with our defensive coaching last year. Quite simply there is one fundamental thing that a coordinator has to be able to do. Put his players in the best position to win. Bob simply could not. He and TT/MM have a fundamental disagreement on how things are done. Build the scheme to fit the players, or fit the players into the scheme. Jolly and Cole are not 2 gap players. Why we ran a scheme that required two 2 gap DT's, when we really only had 1 healthy and 1 injured 2 gap DT is beyond words. We didn't have the players for front 4 pressure once Jenkins went down and KGB was proven to be ineffective. Blitzing into a 2 gap scheme is not the answer. Typical things like stunts and zone blitzing isn't possible (at least effective) from the front 4 alignment Bob ran. Our guys trying to win with Bobs coaching was like trying to win the Indy 500 on flat tires.

Agree 100%. That was what happened. Sanders was put on task to develop a more diversified scheme that would allow different looks, especially some blitz looks. He failed miserably. Our run fits were basic, but repetitive. Bob needed firing and he got it.

SS depth was a big issue. After Bigby went down, we really had no SS that was an instinctive box defender. One of the primary draws of man coverage is that you can rotate the SS into the box and run blitz LB's. It worked like a charm in '07, stifling some of the leagues running powerhouses. That didn't exist in '08, by the time Bigby got back, Barnett went down and Bob never sent Hawk on run blitzes from the mike spot. He coached scared.

I think Rouses' injury killed us here. Is he a good kid who was dinged, or a one dimensional, limited guy? Time will tell and Smith will help, even though he was a swing guy in Pitt, he may BE the SS this season.

The punting game was terrible. Frosty the shankman will most likely go down as TT's most impactful mistake.

I felt TT got snookered here by Stock. Ryan was screwing up, but Frost was no help at all. Ryan should have been coached up by Stock instead of cut. Stock's ST troops regressed last season and it killed us, too.

Secondary weaknesses.
The pass rush. With KGB's routine knee scope turning into a career ending injury and Jenkins going down to injury early, our lack of pass rusher depth was exposed. Bob's scheming did nothing but hurt the problem, but it is pretty safe to say that we could use another rusher or two.

That was the worst scope job in NFL history

DT depth. Our guys weren't bad, but we needed more of them, at least one more guy to rotate in. Jenkins injury was doubly devastating since he too was a rotational DT. We could definitely use so more 300lb+ defenders.

We really lost 3 DLine guys. Williams, Jenkins, and KGB. It hurt, bad.

Offensive Tackles. Both OT's showed their age last year. MM erred on the side of caution, putting his most proven pass blockers on the field as his primary lineup. I'm not so sure that was the right approach, we definitely left a lot of running yards on the field with that lineup, and they showed cracks in the passing game as well. Fortunately IMO we have the players on the roster already to improve by simply adjusting the lineup, and really don't need to add more than depth in the draft.

Moll gets his last chance ya think? Or add a body there? Moll is a good fill-in. But if the other team gets to gameplan him as a starter, whooee

ST play. The same group of guys took a big step backwards from '07 to '08. The coverage just wasn't very good. We'll see if new coaching is the answer, but the defensive scheme change should pay dividends via player types sought.

Yeah, with a 3-4, you get more backers. But some of the backers may not be ST demons. 4-3 backers can run the field better than SOLB guys, so we might not add as many troops as you think. The loss of Tracy White hurt like hell here. Without White, our boys were a bunch of headless horsemen. Our team will improve as we will have some new field leaders in 09

TT has already taken steps to address most of what I feel were the biggest issues. Bob is gone, replaced by who IMO was the best DC on the market, one who preaches fitting scheme to players and not vice versa. We've got a new SS (Smith was miscast in Pit, he's a SS not FS), and Frosty the shankman is gone, we are sure to have a spirited punting competition this year.

Capers is a doctor of defense, all right. Darren Perry is a great secondary coach. He knows every trick in the book and can coach DB's with the best of 'em. I caught his act in Cincy with Lewis' staff, he's strong. Kevin Greene was one of the best elephant LB's ever and will add spirit at the minimum. The D should get back on track with these new coaches. We won't be as predictable and obvious, at least.

The pass rush wasn't getting better in FA, draft options are definitely more appealing, same with DT depth (especially at NT), though Canty was a good looking option, at nearly 7M a year though, ouch, he'd be our highest paid defender. I get the sense that without Canty on board, TT wants a DE that he can cut at the end camp if Harrell and Jolly show something, and not be locked in to keeping an inferior player by contract. The OT situation I'm not concerned about at all. IMO we can field a better lineup than we did last year without Tausher on the roster, and can go a few ways in the draft to significantly improve ourselves. ST remains to be seen, but an increase in the number of LB's on the roster and new coaching sure can't hurt.

Getting pass rush help in FA is all but impossible. Everybody will overpay just on the hope that a guy will help.

I keep thinking and hoping that Taush will be back for the last hurrah, but the draft may yield us a guy.

I'm not panicking at all simply because IMO we have already significantly improved ourselves, and are in prime position in the draft to address the rest of what ailed us. If we come out of the draft with a good pass rusher (a guy that can give us pressure an 3rd and long (at least to begin with)), a solid OL (doesn't matter the position, or versatility allows a T, G, or C to improve us), a rotational NT and a rotational DE, I'll be perfectly content going into the season.

Great post, once again Waldo. Where I'm worried about TT is his ignoring street FA's. Is there a 3-4 DE out there coming off a 2 year injury that can help us? Bring him into camp. Street FA's rarely work out, but every once in awhile, you find a Desmond Howard. A vet with talent that will explode at a new job. Bring in 3 or 4 NFL vagabonds and see if one of 'em can do the job. TT did just that with Smith. Let's add a few more "Smiths".

[Waldo]

The cuttable DE I still think is in the cards, with Carter as the most likely guy.

On the OL, there are so many alignments that can work IMO that could yield very good results.

Barbre is moving to T most likely (doesn't have the brains for the interior IMO). I think RT is his best spot, he could be quite good there. Sitton is literally a Tausher clone, in body, skills, and play style. While he has incredible upside at G, he could swing out to RT and probably be Tausher 2 with little issue (Tausher probably could have been an elite RG). He actually was a RT draft day, that we moved inside to RG. Spitz has a lot of upside at C, and most likely would easily beat Wells in a 1 on 1 competition in camp if he stuck to C only. His best value though IMO is the first guy off the bench in the interior. He can do an acceptable job at all 3 interior spots. He's the kind of guy you want when injuries strike. I also think that Colledge is a better LT than Clifton, and would legitimately beat him in open competition. Moll definitely has a shot at RT. Physical ability is definitely not his problem, mental focus is. Breno is a legitamate challenge to start at RT as well.

Getting a guy like Mack or Unger could go a long way for us, or a LT/LG guy like Merideth to play behind Colledge. There's a few solid right side guys (Tupou/Watkins/Kropog/Parrish/etc...) available in the mid-later rounds that would be solid bench options to push Moll, Parrish and Kropog would be solid LT/LG's also to play behind Colledge if Barbre goes to the right side.

IMO a line of Clifton-Colledge-Mack-Sitton-Barbre would be sick, significantly better than what we fielded last year.

[wist43]

One small point: the lack of street free agents in recent years.

My guess is that we have had fewer of those as the depth of the team has gotten better. Also, it may just seem like less signed because less of those who are signed stick on the team due to better talent already here.

Of course, it could be that Thompson, McCarthy, and I just have the false perception that Packer players are more talented ......... but i don't think so.

Tex even implying that the talent level of the Packers "isn't all that" is earth shattering... nothing makes sense anymoe :?: :?:

I'm going home now, no need to work anymore... the apocolypse draweth nigh :D

[texaspackerbacker]

One small point: the lack of street free agents in recent years.

My guess is that we have had fewer of those as the depth of the team has gotten better. Also, it may just seem like less signed because less of those who are signed stick on the team due to better talent already here.

Of course, it could be that Thompson, McCarthy, and I just have the false perception that Packer players are more talented ......... but i don't think so.

Tex even implying that the talent level of the Packers "isn't all that" is earth shattering... nothing makes sense anymoe :?: :?:

I'm going home now, no need to work anymore... the apocolypse draweth nigh :D

I reread my post three times, and I can't for the life of me, figure out where you could read the "isn't all that" from it. Ted and Mike assure me that they can't fathom how you could come to that conclusion either.

[wist43]

One small point: the lack of street free agents in recent years.

My guess is that we have had fewer of those as the depth of the team has gotten better. Also, it may just seem like less signed because less of those who are signed stick on the team due to better talent already here.

Of course, it could be that Thompson, McCarthy, and I just have the false perception that Packer players are more talented ......... but i don't think so.

Tex even implying that the talent level of the Packers "isn't all that" is earth shattering... nothing makes sense anymoe :?: :?:

I'm going home now, no need to work anymore... the apocolypse draweth nigh :D

I reread my post three times, and I can't for the life of me, figure out where you could read the "isn't all that" from it. Ted and Mike assure me that they can't fathom how you could come to that conclusion either.[/quote

"Of course, it could be that Thompson, McCarthy, and I just have the false perception that Packer players are more talented..."

Who are you, and what have you done with Tex??? :smack:

[retailguy]

I'd be a lot more fired up if the plan was always right. But the "plan" got us lost in the Woods last year. That doesn't bother Lori Nickel, but it worries me some.

One part of the plan that makes me nervous the whole "kids, kids, kids, grow from within" deal.

Look at the DB's. Williams is holding us up for money and Jarrett Bush will get a million a year from us or Tenn. They have the time in and are going to get the best deal. Williams will get a couple mil a year or so, if we sign him. Bush will get a mil a year. We have to lay out good money to retain both players. Meanwhile, NE just signed Leigh Bodden for $750,000, the beloved veterans minimum for a player of his time and grade.

Leigh Bodden is a comparable player to Williams. He is a much better corner than Bush, doesn't play safety and isn't a ST guy. We could have had a reasonable solution to this problem by signing Bodden and Bush. Let Williams walk and we have two back-up CB's for under two million per year. We won't because Thompson's vision of the plan is to retain his own at all costs. (This ain't no Anti-TT rap here, now).

Sometimes, a vet FA is a better alternative than the "plan". We should get talent from all the streams available. I think it's OK that we don't get "stupid money" vet FA's. But we should get more value FA's. As you can guess, I've always like Leigh Bodden. He's a good young troop. A vet player who got screwed by being with dumb organizations. It isn't his fault that he played for Savage's Browns and Millen's Lions.

NE is the team that uses the value vet FA market the best. They grow their own, but sign vet FA's and make smart trades. I'd like to see us keep our overall approach, but be clever in all areas. Our reluctance to make a deal or sign a value vet is hurting us.

KY - there are about a 1/2 dozen people in this forum that I really value their advice/opinion and you're one of those guys. This gets my nomination for post of the year. Sincerely.

You nailed it. I tried to express these thoughts over the whole Canty situation, but failed miserably, in fact, Patler thought I'd lost my mind.

You said it for me. This is how I've felt for the last two seasons. Even last year, coming off 13-3, I felt there were a few specific areas we could improve and that drafting was not the solution.

True to form, you can't always land the player you want, but if you need 5, can't you land ONE?

Ted is leaving one tool in the toolbox and it bugs me. Even if he doesn't like to use it, you still pull it out, show it to the cameras and talk a good game. If you don't, that tool becomes WORTHLESS, or at least devalued.

[Guiness]

Capers is a doctor of defense, all right. Darren Perry is a great secondary coach. He knows every trick in the book and can coach DB's with the best of 'em. I caught his act in Cincy with Lewis' staff, he's strong. Kevin Greene was one of the best elephant LB's ever and will add spirit at the minimum. The D should get back on track with these new coaches. We won't be as predictable and obvious, at least.


I love that you mention K. Greene's. I'm very curious to see his impact as a coach. Guy was a great player I loved to watch. I always thought his 'I'm wacko routine' was just that, a routine, but it was fun.

'People generally get out of the way of crazies' - quote from a helicopter pilot of some 80's TV show - maybe Miami Vice?

[Fritz]

So if the entire front seven of the new 3-4 defense runs around in circles and drools before the snap, maybe the offensive line will just step aside!

[SnakeLH2006]

I'd be a lot more fired up if the plan was always right. But the "plan" got us lost in the Woods last year. That doesn't bother Lori Nickel, but it worries me some.

One part of the plan that makes me nervous the whole "kids, kids, kids, grow from within" deal.

Look at the DB's. Williams is holding us up for money and Jarrett Bush will get a million a year from us or Tenn. They have the time in and are going to get the best deal. Williams will get a couple mil a year or so, if we sign him. Bush will get a mil a year. We have to lay out good money to retain both players. Meanwhile, NE just signed Leigh Bodden for $750,000, the beloved veterans minimum for a player of his time and grade.

Leigh Bodden is a comparable player to Williams. He is a much better corner than Bush, doesn't play safety and isn't a ST guy. We could have had a reasonable solution to this problem by signing Bodden and Bush. Let Williams walk and we have two back-up CB's for under two million per year. We won't because Thompson's vision of the plan is to retain his own at all costs. (This ain't no Anti-TT rap here, now).

Sometimes, a vet FA is a better alternative than the "plan". We should get talent from all the streams available. I think it's OK that we don't get "stupid money" vet FA's. But we should get more value FA's. As you can guess, I've always like Leigh Bodden. He's a good young troop. A vet player who got screwed by being with dumb organizations. It isn't his fault that he played for Savage's Browns and Millen's Lions.

NE is the team that uses the value vet FA market the best. They grow their own, but sign vet FA's and make smart trades. I'd like to see us keep our overall approach, but be clever in all areas. Our reluctance to make a deal or sign a value vet is hurting us.

KY - there are about a 1/2 dozen people in this forum that I really value their advice/opinion and you're one of those guys. This gets my nomination for post of the year. Sincerely.

You nailed it. I tried to express these thoughts over the whole Canty situation, but failed miserably, in fact, Patler thought I'd lost my mind.

You said it for me. This is how I've felt for the last two seasons. Even last year, coming off 13-3, I felt there were a few specific areas we could improve and that drafting was not the solution.

True to form, you can't always land the player you want, but if you need 5, can't you land ONE?

Ted is leaving one tool in the toolbox and it bugs me. Even if he doesn't like to use it, you still pull it out, show it to the cameras and talk a good game. If you don't, that tool becomes WORTHLESS, or at least devalued.

Snake agrees wholeheartedly, as I think TT's pattern is this in FA: If he can't get a fill-in, bottom tier guy for cheap he won't do it and will draft the guy he wants...no prob. with that.

But, it looks like FA keeps drying up more and more each year to the point there will be no more bargain Woodson guys for TT to sign to deece deals anymore. That's understandable yet part of that is on him. For not showing a willingness to sign anyone (some argue he does try behind the scenes, yet there's no proof in the pudding) potential FA's see that, thus guys like Burnett, etc. not even coming into GB for a visit cuz they know damn well they will be lowballed, so why waste the time?

TT does well in the draft and esp. in FA rookies, yet he can't fill the holes in FA cuz no one wants to come to GB and waste their prospective time knowing it won't amount to much as of late. He, TT, is leaving a major tool at his disposal at bay in FA, as his reputation as a cheapie now precedes him. TT must now re-up all his "own" guys, and draft like a wizard else we won't have much to show for in the future. That's his fault though. I still like TT, but the FA farce is becoming a dune to our franchise as of late.