Steelers/FA/TT

[cheesner]

Some contend that you have to be involved in FA in order to have success and/or win the SB in the NFL.

As a case example, look at the past SB winners, the Steelers, and how they are put together.:

(starters from Yahoo.com and origination from Lindy's)


Only 4 starters: Carey Davis, Justin Hartwig, James Farrior, and Ryan Clark. Of those, only 2 can be seen as being important contributers.


Ben Roethlisberger d
Hines Ward d
Santonio Holmes d
Willie Parker cfa
Carey Davis fa
Heath Miller d
Max Starks d
Chris Kemoeatu d
Justin Hartwig fa
Darnell Stapleton cfa
Willie Colon d


Aaron Smith d
Casey Hampton d
Brett Keisel d
LaMarr Woodley d
James Farrior fa
James Harrison ufa
Larry Foote d
Ike Taylor d
Deshea Townsend d
Troy Polamalu d
Ryan Clark fa


Of these, only 5 players have been drafted in the same timeframe as TT being GM of the Packers.

Chris Kemoeatu
Heath Miller
LaMarr Woodley
Santonio Holmes
Willie Colon

The Steeler model is perhaps the path that TT is following. Build from within in the draft; resign your own; replace your losses through the developing talent on the roster. The Steelers have been at it for a few years and are farther along in the process, but maybe you don't need to sign FAs to get to the SB. It may also be too soon to judge TTs drafts and there will be more players emerging.

[swede]

Anybody want to take a shot at "how-acquired" testing the Washington Redskins roster? I know they're always preseason favorites due to their willingness to lay out huge money to the glitziest free agents. They must certainly have more players acquired by free agency than the Steelers or the Packers.

Another good game to play might be ranking teams according to how they perform against preseason predictions by the "experts" who sit up in the press boxes.

Let's say USA today predicted that Washington would get 10 wins in an upcoming season based on the amount of free agent $ spent. When they actually go 6-10 their score would be -4. I think members of the sports media are always taken by the movement of free agents and inflate the impact expensive players eventually have on their teams wins and losses.

I'd guess that the Packers would have had a positive score more than any other team in our division over the last ten years because we have been picked frequently to finish 3rd behind the Vikings and Bears.

[RashanGary]

Nice post, Cheesner. It illustrates how good decisions over many years adds up to something great. There are many ways to illustrate this idea (accumulation). This is the most recent, is very applicable to the NFL (obviously) and is pretty clear to see. However, those who cannot see this have had every opportunity. It's been spelled out, explained and shown with examples. Still, they cannot recognize it.

I've concluded, "the ability to see how many small things come together as a whole is something people either have or don't have". It is rarely taught or learned after a certain point. Once proven beyond most doubt, it can be accepted, but the foresight to recognize somewhat complex patterns in a meaningful way is not something a good portion of people can do.

[cpk1994]

Anybody want to take a shot at "how-acquired" testing the Washington Redskins roster? I know they're always preseason favorites due to their willingness to lay out huge money to the glitziest free agents. They must certainly have more players acquired by free agency than the Steelers or the Packers.

Another good game to play might be ranking teams according to how they perform against preseason predictions by the "experts" who sit up in the press boxes.

Let's say USA today predicted that Washington would get 10 wins in an upcoming season based on the amount of free agent $ spent. When they actually go 6-10 their score would be -4. I think members of the sports media are always taken by the movement of free agents and inflate the impact expensive players eventually have on their teams wins and losses.

I'd guess that the Packers would have had a positive score more than any other team in our division over the last ten years because we have been picked frequently to finish 3rd behind the Vikings and Bears.

And while someone is testing 'ol Danny boy. Someone needs to "how-acquired" test 'ol Ziggy the way he is throwing his checkbook around.

[sheepshead]

Ive made this point in an earlier post. In Snyders time(10 years) the Redskins have won 1 playoff game. The Steelers have won 11 including 2 super bowls.

[Rastak]

Anybody want to take a shot at "how-acquired" testing the Washington Redskins roster? I know they're always preseason favorites due to their willingness to lay out huge money to the glitziest free agents. They must certainly have more players acquired by free agency than the Steelers or the Packers.

Another good game to play might be ranking teams according to how they perform against preseason predictions by the "experts" who sit up in the press boxes.

Let's say USA today predicted that Washington would get 10 wins in an upcoming season based on the amount of free agent $ spent. When they actually go 6-10 their score would be -4. I think members of the sports media are always taken by the movement of free agents and inflate the impact expensive players eventually have on their teams wins and losses.

I'd guess that the Packers would have had a positive score more than any other team in our division over the last ten years because we have been picked frequently to finish 3rd behind the Vikings and Bears.

And while someone is testing 'ol Danny boy. Someone needs to "how-acquired" test 'ol Ziggy the way he is throwing his checkbook around.

Good question, how were the division champs constructed.

Drafts
Trades
FA

A balanced diet.

DE Allen Trade
DT P Williams FA
DT K Williams Draft
DE Edwards Draft
LB Greenway Draft
LB Henderson Draft
LB Leber FA
CB Winfield FA
CB Griffin Draft
S Johnson Draft (Sharpers gone)
S Williams FA

OT McKinnie Draft
OT Cook Draft
C Sullivan Draft
OG Hutchinson FA
OG Herrera Undrafted FA (I think)
TE Kleinsasser Drafted
TE Shiancoe FA
WR Berrian FA
WR Wade FA
WR Rice Drafted
QB Rosenfels Trade
QB Jackson Mistake
RB Peterson Drafted
RB Taylor FA

How did Minnesota aquire it's pro Bowl players (last years?)

Peterson Draft
Hutchinson FA
Allen Trade
K Williams Draft
P Williams FA
Winfield FA

So they picked up three probowlers via FA, Drafted 2 and traded for 1. I'm sure you see a huge problem with that but I don't.

[red]

the problem i have with tt's plan is that it still leaves massive holes in the team.

chooseing best player available every time is a great idea, if you already have all your holes filled. we had many holes when TT started here, and we still have many holes.

if you're not going to draft the players that are going to make your team better, then you have to get them from somewhere, either through free agency, or trades

if you have a roster of a and b players, and lets say 5 starting spots filled with d level guys, thats not good enough. he's got to get out there and at least get some d+ or c level players

i agree with leaving the tools in the tool shed. you have multiple options for building a team, and we have a GM that seems scared to death of all but one option

[sharpe1027]

the problem i have with tt's plan is that it still leaves massive holes in the team.

chooseing best player available every time is a great idea, if you already have all your holes filled. we had many holes when TT started here, and we still have many holes.

if you're not going to draft the players that are going to make your team better, then you have to get them from somewhere, either through free agency, or trades

if you have a roster of a and b players, and lets say 5 starting spots filled with d level guys, thats not good enough. he's got to get out there and at least get some d+ or c level players

i agree with leaving the tools in the tool shed. you have multiple options for building a team, and we have a GM that seems scared to death of all but one option

I think this gets blown way out of proportion. Nobody should be able to keep a straight face while they sit there and tell me that the Packers organization doesn't consider what the team needs. No matter what they say publicly, it is a factor. You can see it on draft day, if you look past the first round pick you don't agree with.

You are putting way too much stock into the response they give when the media is prodding with questions about perceived team needs. Seems to me that the Packers have a standard response, much like the player who gives the same corny answer to reporters questions "it is all about the team" or some such.

[cheesner]

Good question, how were the division champs constructed.

Drafts
Trades
FA

A balanced diet.

. . .

How did Minnesota aquire it's pro Bowl players (last years?)

Peterson Draft
Hutchinson FA
Allen Trade
K Williams Draft
P Williams FA
Winfield FA

So they picked up three probowlers via FA, Drafted 2 and traded for 1. I'm sure you see a huge problem with that but I don't.
Wow. All them probowlers, I am sure you must have won the Superbowl last year.

[cheesner]

the problem i have with tt's plan is that it still leaves massive holes in the team.

i agree with leaving the tools in the tool shed. you have multiple options for building a team, and we have a GM that seems scared to death of all but one option

But isn't winning the superbowl the goal? Did the Steelers win the SB? Did the Steelers have 'massive holes'? Did the Steelers need to go after FAs for success?


I think you meant you disagree with leaving tools in the shed. Well, you need to leave the sledge hammer in the shed when you are fixing a watch. Not every tool is practical or helps. Some hurt the cause.

[Waldo]

Incidentally, of GB's 2 pro bowlers, 1 was drafted, one was a FA. Of course the FA one didn't play in the game, leaving space for the first alternate, also of the Packers, who was acquired via trade.

Perfectly balanced. :D

[Waldo]

the problem i have with tt's plan is that it still leaves massive holes in the team.

i agree with leaving the tools in the tool shed. you have multiple options for building a team, and we have a GM that seems scared to death of all but one option

But isn't winning the superbowl the goal? Did the Steelers win the SB? Did the Steelers have 'massive holes'? Did the Steelers need to go after FAs for success?


I think you meant you disagree with leaving tools in the shed. Well, you need to leave the sledge hammer in the shed when you are fixing a watch. Not every tool is practical or helps. Some hurt the cause.

Worst OL in the NFL. No joke.

Every team has big holes. No such thing as a perfect team.

[KYPack]

Waldo, I've been agreeing with you too much lately.

Big Ben was the highest paid player in the NFL. 27 mil. He earned every freakin' nickle.

The Steelers had a shit OLine last year and still won the SB. They got it barely done. They stay with that "Steeler model", boy. Faneca wanted (& deserved the big money. They let him go and never filled the hole he left. Somehow, they find a way to muddle thru anything, those guys.

[wist43]

The Steelers have the proper schemes and philosophies in place, i.e. 3-4 defense and power football... they don't need nearly as many top end skill position players.

The Packers are a finesse team... hard to find that many skill guys to put you over the top. TT has upgraded the toughness of the defense a little bit, but then turned right around wimpified the OL.

Can't compare anything about the Steelers and the Packers... the Steelers are a tough nosed organization, and it shows on the field. The Packers are more cute than tough, and that shows on the field too.

I'll take shit kicking toughness over finesse ball any day... is anyone else sick of seeing Wells and Colledge knocked 5 yards into the backfield on every snap??? It's embarrasing.

[cheesner]

I'll take shit kicking toughness over finesse ball any day... is anyone else sick of seeing Wells and Colledge knocked 5 yards into the backfield on every snap??? It's embarrasing.
Ridiculous.

Why make up stuff? College got knocked back 5 yards into the backfield on every snap? Your warped and sinister view of TT has blinded you to the development of a good player.

Here is a clip from 08. College against Mike Williams in game against Minny. College pushes Williams around.

1:15 in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSc1koUyEYo

[Rastak]

Good question, how were the division champs constructed.

Drafts
Trades
FA

A balanced diet.

. . .

How did Minnesota aquire it's pro Bowl players (last years?)

Peterson Draft
Hutchinson FA
Allen Trade
K Williams Draft
P Williams FA
Winfield FA

So they picked up three probowlers via FA, Drafted 2 and traded for 1. I'm sure you see a huge problem with that but I don't.
Wow. All them probowlers, I am sure you must have won the Superbowl last year.

6 = 10-6
2 - 6-10

:)

[Fritz]

I'll take shit kicking toughness over finesse ball any day... is anyone else sick of seeing Wells and Colledge knocked 5 yards into the backfield on every snap??? It's embarrasing.
Ridiculous.

Why make up stuff? College got knocked back 5 yards into the backfield on every snap? Your warped and sinister view of TT has blinded you to the development of a good player.

Here is a clip from 08. College against Mike Williams in game against Minny. College pushes Williams around.

1:15 in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSc1koUyEYo

What's up with the Irish music in the background of the highlight film?

[KYPack]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSc1koUyEYo

What's up with the Irish music in the background of the highlight film?[/quote]

'Cause it's St Paddy's Day, ye heathen. Where's yer Celtic pride?

[Waldo]

Good question, how were the division champs constructed.

Drafts
Trades
FA

A balanced diet.

. . .

How did Minnesota aquire it's pro Bowl players (last years?)

Peterson Draft
Hutchinson FA
Allen Trade
K Williams Draft
P Williams FA
Winfield FA

So they picked up three probowlers via FA, Drafted 2 and traded for 1. I'm sure you see a huge problem with that but I don't.
Wow. All them probowlers, I am sure you must have won the Superbowl last year.

6 = 10-6
2 - 6-10

:)

Didn't we only have 4 (Favre, Driver, Kamp, Harris) the year we went 13-3, Mn had 6 and they went 8-8. Pit only had 3 and they won the SB.

[wist43]

I'll take shit kicking toughness over finesse ball any day... is anyone else sick of seeing Wells and Colledge knocked 5 yards into the backfield on every snap??? It's embarrasing.
Ridiculous.

Why make up stuff? College got knocked back 5 yards into the backfield on every snap? Your warped and sinister view of TT has blinded you to the development of a good player.

Here is a clip from 08. College against Mike Williams in game against Minny. College pushes Williams around.

1:15 in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSc1koUyEYo

Making a generalization... what if I said he could run like the wind???

[Fritz]

I'll take shit kicking toughness over finesse ball any day... is anyone else sick of seeing Wells and Colledge knocked 5 yards into the backfield on every snap??? It's embarrasing.
Ridiculous.

Why make up stuff? College got knocked back 5 yards into the backfield on every snap? Your warped and sinister view of TT has blinded you to the development of a good player.

Here is a clip from 08. College against Mike Williams in game against Minny. College pushes Williams around.

1:15 in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSc1koUyEYo

Making a generalization... what if I said he could run like the wind???

What if I said he could break like the wind?

[cheesner]

I'll take shit kicking toughness over finesse ball any day... is anyone else sick of seeing Wells and Colledge knocked 5 yards into the backfield on every snap??? It's embarrasing.
Ridiculous.

Why make up stuff? College got knocked back 5 yards into the backfield on every snap? Your warped and sinister view of TT has blinded you to the development of a good player.

Here is a clip from 08. College against Mike Williams in game against Minny. College pushes Williams around.

1:15 in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSc1koUyEYo

Making a generalization... what if I said he could run like the wind???I am making a generalization?!

You stated that Colledge gets 'knocked 5 yards into the backfield on EVERY snap'. Those are your words.

I posted a link to a video where Colledge is not only not getting pushed back 5 yards, he actually takes the upper hand and pushes back a Probowl player.

Who made the inaccurate generalization?

[hoosier]

I think he meant that he was making a generalization about Colledge. It might not look very much like what other people see, but it's definitely a generalization. :lol:

[cheesner]

I think he meant that he was making a generalization about Colledge. It might not look very much like what other people see, but it's definitely a generalization. :lol:
oh - my bad.

Problem with generalizations (especially ones such as this that are way off base) is that it undermines all your credibility. Colledge had a good season where I think he has moved into the 'above average' catagory. He is still young and improving and I look forward to seeing what he can do this year.

[hoosier]

I think he meant that he was making a generalization about Colledge. It might not look very much like what other people see, but it's definitely a generalization. :lol:
oh - my bad.

Problem with generalizations (especially ones such as this that are way off base) is that it undermines all your credibility. Colledge had a good season where I think he has moved into the 'above average' catagory. He is still young and improving and I look forward to seeing what he can do this year.

I think some fans' impressions of Colledge are colored by what they read about him from his rookie year. The early reports made it sound like he was somewhat arrogant and having difficulty making the transitions--the physical transition from T to G, and the mental transition from Boise St the the NFL. I have to admit that I didn't see him play during the second half of 2008 (hard to follow the Packers from southern Indiana), and if it weren't for what I read in PR about his improvement over 2008 I might have similar impressions about him.

[retailguy]

I think he meant that he was making a generalization about Colledge. It might not look very much like what other people see, but it's definitely a generalization. :lol:
oh - my bad.

Problem with generalizations (especially ones such as this that are way off base) is that it undermines all your credibility. Colledge had a good season where I think he has moved into the 'above average' catagory. He is still young and improving and I look forward to seeing what he can do this year.

Cheese,

See, I don't think his generalization is way off base. I think Colledge is AWFUL as a guard, and at best serviceable as a tackle. I still believe that if they left him as a tackle, he'd be ok, but that's about it.

I watched every game this past season, including the end of the season, and I did not see much improvement.

I am ready to label him as a bust. That means he'll have a breakout 2009 campaign and you can remind me of this in week 10.

[Waldo]

Amazing how different people can watch the same thing and take such different impressions away. I'd prefer DC stay at LG because he's so good at it, unless we have a good option at LG, as I think he'd easily beat out Clifton at this point. He could be a dominant RT (far better than Tausher ever was). Colledge has very rare feet and quickness, and has gotten quite strong. J Smith and Beatty are really the only highly rated prospect that compare to his agility, if I had to choose between Colledge and Beatty at LT, I'd probably choose Daryn.

When you watch a big run, nearly always Colledge is dominating somebody clearing the hole (he pancakes A LOT of LB's on the 2nd level). Aaron always snuck behind Daryn. And picked up 100% of his sneaks. I'm pretty sure that he hasn't given up a sack at T since he was a rookie. Aaron played more comfortable (his feet weren't as happy and he was more poised in the pocket) with Daryn at LT than Clifton. The more space DC has to work with, the better he looks.

[wist43]

I'll take shit kicking toughness over finesse ball any day... is anyone else sick of seeing Wells and Colledge knocked 5 yards into the backfield on every snap??? It's embarrasing.
Ridiculous.

Why make up stuff? College got knocked back 5 yards into the backfield on every snap? Your warped and sinister view of TT has blinded you to the development of a good player.

Here is a clip from 08. College against Mike Williams in game against Minny. College pushes Williams around.

1:15 in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSc1koUyEYo

Making a generalization... what if I said he could run like the wind???I am making a generalization?!

You stated that Colledge gets 'knocked 5 yards into the backfield on EVERY snap'. Those are your words.

I posted a link to a video where Colledge is not only not getting pushed back 5 yards, he actually takes the upper hand and pushes back a Probowl player.

Who made the inaccurate generalization?

Good lord... I was making a generalization. Beginning to think most of you got dropped on your heads as children. Damn, get a grip.

[cheesner]

I'll take shit kicking toughness over finesse ball any day... is anyone else sick of seeing Wells and Colledge knocked 5 yards into the backfield on every snap??? It's embarrasing.
Ridiculous.

Why make up stuff? College got knocked back 5 yards into the backfield on every snap? Your warped and sinister view of TT has blinded you to the development of a good player.

Here is a clip from 08. College against Mike Williams in game against Minny. College pushes Williams around.

1:15 in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSc1koUyEYo

Making a generalization... what if I said he could run like the wind???I am making a generalization?!

You stated that Colledge gets 'knocked 5 yards into the backfield on EVERY snap'. Those are your words.

I posted a link to a video where Colledge is not only not getting pushed back 5 yards, he actually takes the upper hand and pushes back a Probowl player.

Who made the inaccurate generalization?

Good lord... I was making a generalization. Beginning to think most of you got dropped on your heads as children. Damn, get a grip.
I noted my error over 3 hrs and 4 posts ago.

You can call it a generalization, but it is just a lie. Facing the silliness of your statement you try to redirect rather than admit you were wrong. Because if you are forced to admit DC isn't bad, then you have to admit that he was a good choice by TT. If you start admitting that TT did anything that was right, you would have to contradict just about every post you have made in the last 3 years.

[Rastak]

Cheesner....how about you....you either:

1) Suggest 6 pro bowlers means automatic superbowl
or
2) Suggest it's bad to have 6 pro bowlers.....


That wasn't the most astute observation I ever saw! :wink:

[wist43]

I'll take shit kicking toughness over finesse ball any day... is anyone else sick of seeing Wells and Colledge knocked 5 yards into the backfield on every snap??? It's embarrasing.
Ridiculous.

Why make up stuff? College got knocked back 5 yards into the backfield on every snap? Your warped and sinister view of TT has blinded you to the development of a good player.

Here is a clip from 08. College against Mike Williams in game against Minny. College pushes Williams around.

1:15 in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSc1koUyEYo

Making a generalization... what if I said he could run like the wind???

What if I said he could break like the wind?

At least someone on this board has a sense of humor... :D

[cheesner]

Cheesner....how about you....you either:

1) Suggest 6 pro bowlers means automatic superbowl
or
2) Suggest it's bad to have 6 pro bowlers.....


That wasn't the most astute observation I ever saw! :wink:
Rastak, my best friend is a Vikes fan, we kid each other often over these issues. It is good to have as many quality players as possible and having 6 does not mean an automatic superbowl. The problem for the Vikings having these players, is they have a lot of money in Hutchinson/Allen/Winfiled. They have 3 draft picks tied up in Allen. They have limited themselves from having a complete team, in my opinion. Couple that with some unfortunate draft picks and you have an average team. When was the last time the Vikings won a single playoff game? Things may improve for the Vikings soon, if a QB comes around, they may be a force to be reckoned with.