Vote for who TT should draft. (2009)

[packrulz]

I've included candidates who might still be available when the Packers pick at #9, or, none of the above.

[hurleyfan]

I opted for none of the above.. I believe TT will not pick at #9, he'll be trading down and all these guys will be gone..

[Waldo]

I highly doubt TT trades down.

He's never crossed a tier line with a pick and we're right near the end of the top tier.

IMO it's gotta take exceptional value to trade down from where we are.

[red]

if all those guys are there, then i picked raji.

his position is way too important, and there are not a lot of guys out there that can play it

if, and thats a giant if, tt brings in smith and checks him out, and does all his homework on the guy, and if, he deems him to not be the giant shithead like he appears, then i wouldn't mind if he takes smith. the guy has a ton of talent and could be a solid or pro bowl tackle for years, if his head is on right

and i wouldn't mind jenkins either. i'm not too worried about the 40 time. the guy has proven that he can stay with guys and be a damn good corner. against top tier college talent

[Bretsky]

Vote "none of the above" for Michael Crabtree :!:

[wist43]

Josh Freeman... coz it makes the least sense :)

[Waldo]

Josh Freeman... coz it makes the least sense :)

TT's drafting is not nearly as hard to understand as people think it is.

You have to keep a few things in mind:
TT highly values tape
TT highly values position prototype measurables (and severely downgrades otherwise)
TT highly values leaders and team captains
TT only moderately downgrades for injuries
TT seems age indifferent
TT highly values big guys
TT seems to downgrade guys slightly for playing too far from the ball.
He selects close to the BPA, especially in the first.

With that in mind, to construct an approximation of TT's board, start with a board based off production and tape (basically what the national lists looked like right after the final bowl game), try to fit the medical guys in where you think they would be if healthy.

Then modify per the combine. Upgrade the freaks 10-20 picks or so (Hood and Orakpo are the only true freaks (reps+vert+broad>80) in this class IMO). Downgrade everybody harshly based on position prototype measurables they don't meet, based on severity.

For RB's, weight must be 200-210 (haven't pinned it down), 10 yd split must be at least ~1.55.

For DE's, height must be ~6'4", arms must be 34" or longer, vert+broad+reps must equal 70 at least, good 10 yd split a bonus

For CB's, height must be 5'11", must jump well (35"+), must run in the 4.4's at least

For DT's, weight must be 300+, vert+broad+reps must equal 70 at least, arms must be 33" or longer

For OL's height must be at least 6'4", weight must be 300, SS must be at least 4.6, 3C must be at least 7.6, the longer arms the better

WR's must be 5'11, either run sub a sub 4.5 40 or sub 1.5 10, and be known for their hands.

QB's have to be at least 6'2", do well on the wonderlic, and be an accurate passer.

Downgrade all players that run slower than NFL average per unit weight (weight/height) in the 10 yd split

Give a downgrade to all players that were not team leaders
Give a small downgrade to all injured players or players with injury problems
Downgrade all OL who are not "tough guys" (all his OL have been known as being ruffians a little and play nasty).
Downgrade all legal problems attitude issues severely
Downgrade guys for playing too far from the ball (at least high in the draft)

At least that's what I've been able to decipher thus far.

With that in mind, you would have correctly been able to pin down a lot of TT's higher rated guys, and guys that he would definitely pass on.

Guys IMO TT has rated very highly:
J. Smith
Curry
Orakpo
Raji
Maybin

Guys not quite as high as you would think
Crabtree
Maclin
Jenkins
A. Smith
Monroe (still top 10)
Brown
Brace

OL to watch later:
Murtha
Wood
Unger
Parrish
Fulton
Bell

DL/OLB's to watch later:
Gilbert
Sidbury
Barwin
Moala
Scott
Pryor
Hill
Miller
Walters

Darkhorse - Ziggy Hood - He could unexpectedly (to pundits at least) be extremely high on TT's board. He passes every test with flying colors and is elite in all workout categories with a good frame for a swing T. TT watches the 10 yd split quite close, Ziggy posted the same time KGB and Ware did. His tape is so so, but had a great senior bowl, giving a clue that his coaching (or teammates, he's the one the opponents key on) were a big reason for his lack of elite production. Basically healthier than Harrell and better than him across the board.

[Zool]

If we draft a guy named Ziggy, will that automatically make MJ his biggest fan? If it happens will she change her title to Hood Rat?

[Lurker64]

If we draft a guy named Ziggy, will that automatically make MJ his biggest fan? If it happens will she change her title to Hood Rat?

His actual name is Evander, but he goes by Ziggy.

Waldo, do you really think Hood merits a high first by any metric? He seems like a guy who could be there in the 2nd.

[Zool]

If we draft a guy named Ziggy, will that automatically make MJ his biggest fan? If it happens will she change her title to Hood Rat?

His actual name is Evander, but he goes by Ziggy.

Waldo, do you really think Hood merits a high first by any metric? He seems like a guy who could be there in the 2nd.

I realize, but I just wanted to see if she will go by Hood Rat.

[mission]

If we draft a guy named Ziggy, will that automatically make MJ his biggest fan? If it happens will she change her title to Hood Rat?

His actual name is Evander, but he goes by Ziggy.

Waldo, do you really think Hood merits a high first by any metric? He seems like a guy who could be there in the 2nd.

I realize, but I just wanted to see if she will go by Hood Rat.

There's only one... reppin mah block, shawty 8-) :lol:

[Fritz]

Hood...Does he play for Mizzou?

[Waldo]

If we draft a guy named Ziggy, will that automatically make MJ his biggest fan? If it happens will she change her title to Hood Rat?

His actual name is Evander, but he goes by Ziggy.

Waldo, do you really think Hood merits a high first by any metric? He seems like a guy who could be there in the 2nd.

By tape alone he warranted a late 2nd, his team was pretty bad though, guys like him can be a little hidden (a la Jordy). Basically it was written about him pre-combine that he was a Kampman (even though Kamp isn't), a high motor, try hard guy that plays relentless, but with mediocre athleticism. He was a team captain and locker room leader.

At the senior bowl 5 guys really showed up and dominated, Mack, English, Hood, Raji, and Ayers. Mack is limited by position to very late first tops. All of them became first rounders based on superior play against their peers. Raji moved from the 20's to the top 10. Hood basically showed that he is coachable and that he stands out in the crowd and slid in to the bottom half of the first. He looked like a giant DE more than a DT in drills.

At the combine he kinda has flown under the radar since he didn't show up in any of the top 10 lists from the combine since the DT's are mixed in with the DE's, just the bench where he was the 4th best (ahead of Brace and Raji), his 40 was the best of the DT's though. It is a closer inspection of his combine results (plus what he has done at his pro day since), that is most revealing. His 10 yd split (not listed everywhere)(TT's favorite measurable for the DL) is historically good, it might be the best 10 yd split a 300lb+ guy has ever posted (if not it is surely top 3). The rest (aside from bench) is the top across the board. He improved his vert to equal Gilbert's, benches and squats more than Raji, and is faster in all tests than Larry English. The combination of his vert+broad+reps is just over 80, something that is very rare to find (1 or 2 per draft, tops), even rarer when the guy does 35 or less reps. It is rare to find a DT even get to 70 without 35+ reps (Harrell was the only one in his draft), guys that can bench can't jump. What is truly unusual is the explosive guys (what the vert+broad+reps sum is) typically aren't the fast guys, to be in the ultra rare class in speed and explosion is almost unheard of.

So his scouting reports were wrong. A DT as athletic as him hasn't come around in a very long time (I have combine #'s for everybody drafted going back to 2003, nobody is close).

There are basically 4 types of 3-4 lineman, true NT's, true DE's, NT's that can kick out to DE (big frame NT's, run stoppers at DE), and DE's that can swing inside to NT (powerful penetrators). His frame and #'s are of the rarest type, the DE that can swing inside to NT (K Williams did this in Mn for the short time they ran a 3-4).

He's right in that band where's he's a little undersized for DE (Louis Castillo sized almost exactly) but not too small, with decent arm length, yet not too tall or lanky for NT. While he in no way would be an every down NT (not bulky enough), if the team is going to use a 2-4 nickel set, and put a DE in the A gap or over the nose, he's your man to slide in from the DE spot. The fact that we are running a 1 gap scheme just makes his value go that much higher.

TT values position prototype (elite #'s for the prototype), values versatile players, values leaders, and values high motor driven guys and values productive players (here's the thing with Harrell, he wasn't a big sacker, but he was good at batting passes and his team was substantially better against the run with him on the field (this has been true in GB too if anybody has been paying attention)).

Nationally right now Hood is ranked around 20 by most of the more informed pundits, and word at his pro day was that most NFL scouts had him ranked higher than Jerry (GB was well represented at his pro day and met with him at the Senior Bowl).

I think I understand TT's "reaches", people look at it from the wrong direction, it isn't so much that he wants that guy, it is that he doesn't want the others, and his guy is just the highest ranked among those.

When you look at the guys in the 8-20 area:
Brown - Too short, not explosive enough
Sanchez - I don't think he'll pick a QB
Andre - not agile enough, problems with the fork
Crabtree - too far from the ball
Ayers - bad explosion #'s, not agile enough
Oher - not agile enough, inconsistent, probably a G at the pro level
Vontae - too far from the ball, not a physical corner
Jenkins - too slow
Maualuga - a possibility, but I don't think TT will take a 2 down player in the top 10
Freeman - I don't think he'll pick a QB
Moreno - too slow
Britton - too short of arms
Beatty - possibility, fits the prototype
Wells - possibility
Cushing - possibility
Maclin - too far from the ball
Maybin - strong possibility

Basically, if Smith, Raji, Monroe, Orakpo, and Curry are off the board, simply by a process of cancelling who he wouldn't take, the pick is going to come down to:
Maybin
Maualuga
Beatty
Cushing
Wells
Hood

Take away the guys that play at already big money positions (ILB), and you are left with:
Maybin
Wells
Beatty
Hood

If he opts to go defense, we're left with:
Maybin
Hood

It isn't that TT values him super highly, just by process of filtering out the guys he probably wouldn't take, he ends up rising very high, simply because, for some odd reason, this year has a lot of guys in the first whose tape is good, bit whose measurables are poor or don't fit in to position prototypes.

Though I do think Maybin is by far the most likely pick if Smith, Monroe, Raji, Orakpo, and Curry are gone.

He has shown before that he will "reach" big for a guy with very elite measurables and a prototype frame, that didn't have the production to match. (Collins). If he isn't enamored by Maybin don't be too shocked if Hood is the guy, if there is one guy that fits TT"s profile of who he will reach for, Hood is that guy.

I do like Hood, but he is definitely not "my" guy (not that I'd complain though). I don't pick guys I think that we should take so much as try to Sherlock Holmes on TT's pick, since everybody seems to think that he is wildly unpredictable, he isn't, he has patterns, they are just very hard to crack. The key piece of info to know it that TT strongly values players that fit the prototype of a position. One big thing to remember about Hood, his measurables are good enough to justify #1 overall, his tape and position are not.

[KYPack]

Great post Waldo.

I've been saying that quite a bit, lately.

Good stuff, all of it.

You really need to put this shit in order and make an article out of it. I'd read it, for one. These are concepts I've been trying to get my brain around for a few years now. Why does TT draft who he drafts?

These posts are part of the answer, anyway.

[MJZiggy]

Great post Waldo.

I've been saying that quite a bit, lately.

Good stuff, all of it.

You really need to put this shit in order and make an article out of it. I'd read it, for one. These are concepts I've been trying to get my brain around for a few years now. Why does TT draft who he drafts?

These posts are part of the answer, anyway.

Freaks me out when you start reading my mind like that...

[mission]

Great post Waldo.

I've been saying that quite a bit, lately.

Good stuff, all of it.

You really need to put this shit in order and make an article out of it. I'd read it, for one. These are concepts I've been trying to get my brain around for a few years now. Why does TT draft who he drafts?

These posts are part of the answer, anyway.

Freaks me out when you start reading my mind like that...

Is this like eHarmony PR edition? I think we've made a luuuuuuu-uuuuhve connection.

(sorry)

:P

[MJZiggy]

Dude, he's been doing that for years.

[Bossman641]

Great post Waldo

The draft can't come soon enough

[Stevogbfan]

Great post Waldo

The draft can't come soon enough

i agree

[CaliforniaCheez]

THE PACKERS HAVE TO FIND THE NEXT GILBERT BROWN TYPE NOSE TACKLE OR THE 3-4 WILL FAIL.

Maybe not round one but they have to find a Nose Tackle.

[Lurker64]

Why is Nose Tackle such a glaring need, considering that Ryan Pickett will be playing the exact position he did last year, only he'll be on the field for fewer snaps?

It's an important position, but I think we're a little quick to give up on Pickett, who has long been an anchor on the DL.

[packrulz]

Why is Nose Tackle such a glaring need, considering that Ryan Pickett will be playing the exact position he did last year, only he'll be on the field for fewer snaps?

It's an important position, but I think we're a little quick to give up on Pickett, who has long been an anchor on the DL.
I don't think it's a glaring need, and I'm not convinced that Raji is that much better than Jerry or the other NT's in the draft. I think there's a 50-50 chance that TT will trade down because I feel some team desperate for a QB will want to move ahead of San Fran to take Freeman or Sanchez. I voted for Andre Smith because of his potential, long arms, and what he has done on the field. Put him on freeweights with proper training he could be a stud tackle for years to come.

[hoosier]

NT isn't a glaring need for this year but I would certainly hope TT finds someone who can reliably spell Pickett and take over for him in a year or two if Pickett breaks down or starts to decline. Good NTs tend to come from the first round and not so much from developing later round picks.

[KYPack]

You don't see many NT's that productive in their first few years.

We need some back-up at this spot.

[wist43]

I think we desperately need a NT... but need doesn't enter into it for TT. He's said over and over again - and I actually, believe him - that he will take his BPA regardless of position.

[sharpe1027]

I think we desperately need a NT... but need doesn't enter into it for TT. He's said over and over again - and I actually, believe him - that he will take his BPA regardless of position.

Then you are too gullible. :lol:

I've said it before, I don't think anyone can sit there with a straight face and tell me that the Packers Organization does not consider what the team needs. IMHO, the BPA line is a standard company line to derail reporters questions about their personal backseat GMing. Looks like you bought it hook line and sinker.

That is not to say that they never draft players where they already have good players. Drafting a few players at an already strong position is far from taking players without any regard for position. Perhaps if you look past the glitz and glam of the first round picks, you might see that.

[hoosier]

You don't see many NT's that productive in their first few years.

I think this is true of later round draft picks. Jay Ratliff is a good example. But if you look at the AFC, the teams that run effective 3-4 defenses in recent years (take NE, Pitt, Balt and SD) have all devoted high draft picks at that spot, and they've all panned out almost from the first day. Vince Wilfork, Casey Hampton and Haloti Ngata were all first round picks and they were significant contributors from day one. Jamal Williams was a second round pick, and SD used a 4-3 base defense for his first five years as a pro, so his case is unique. When they transitioned to 3-4 in 2004 he was already in his fifth year and was an immediate star.

[wist43]

I think we desperately need a NT... but need doesn't enter into it for TT. He's said over and over again - and I actually, believe him - that he will take his BPA regardless of position.

Then you are too gullible. :lol:

I've said it before, I don't think anyone can sit there with a straight face and tell me that the Packers Organization does not consider what the team needs. IMHO, the BPA line is a standard company line to derail reporters questions about their personal backseat GMing. Looks like you bought it hook line and sinker.

That is not to say that they never draft players where they already have good players. Drafting a few players at an already strong position is far from taking players without any regard for position. Perhaps if you look past the glitz and glam of the first round picks, you might see that.

The top of the draft is what I'm referring to... I think he addresses "need" further down in the draft, and hopes some of those guys work out; but at the top of the draft, where you're more likely to find difference makers, no, TT has proven he doesn't look at position; I couldn't, and you couldn't, give an example of a 1st round pick that addressed need, unless you count Hawk; but since Hawk is so pedestrian, who cares about him.

That said, Harrell and Nelson alone are enough to make the case that TT doesn't give a tinkers damn about what positions are stocked, and what positions have need... the fact that Harrell is a bust and letting Williams walk notwithstanding.

In the end... unless those lower round guys pan out, he'll always have significant holes on the roster, enough to keep us from taking the next step.

I give TT shit about his annual April shopfest, but I'll admit that he has upgraded the roster from top to bottom from what he inherited; however, without making more of an effort to fill specific holes with top end talent at critical positions, and unless he gets lucky multiple times further down in the draft... we're just keep spinning our wheels.

[sharpe1027]

The top of the draft is what I'm referring to... I think he addresses "need" further down in the draft, and hopes some of those guys work out; but at the top of the draft, where you're more likely to find difference makers, no, TT has proven he doesn't look at position; I couldn't, and you couldn't, give an example of a 1st round pick that addressed need, unless you count Hawk; but since Hawk is so pedestrian, who cares about him.

That said, Harrell and Nelson alone are enough to make the case that TT doesn't give a tinkers damn about what positions are stocked, and what positions have need... the fact that Harrell is a bust and letting Williams walk notwithstanding.

In the end... unless those lower round guys pan out, he'll always have significant holes on the roster, enough to keep us from taking the next step.

I give TT shit about his annual April shopfest, but I'll admit that he has upgraded the roster from top to bottom from what he inherited; however, without making more of an effort to fill specific holes with top end talent at critical positions, and unless he gets lucky multiple times further down in the draft... we're just keep spinning our wheels.

You are mixing your arguments with Hawk. It is one thing to say the Packers don't address needs and entirely another to say that the Packers were unsuccessful eventhough they did try to address a need. Two completely unrelated concepts. Actually, you are arguing against yourself. You claim that the only need pick turned out to be pedestrian, suggesting that it was not a good selection.

Regarding your belief that the Packer's Organization doesn't address needs in the first round. Need 1st round picks include: Rodgers, Hawk, Harrell. How can you argue that these guys were not needs?

Last year our DL really needed Harrell = clear need (I realize that many outside of the Packer's Organization did not understand the need on draft day. That doesn't mean it didn't exist, and the facts show just how much of a need it was).

Hawk, starter from day 1, and nobody behind him seems capable = clear need.

Rodgers, current starter and could have been a year before pending the annual Favre wait = clear need. You have repeatedly stated that QB needs to be at a hall-of-fame level of for the Packer's offense. Yet, somehow, Rodgers isn't a need pick?

Seems pretty clear to me that looking back every single 1st round pick was an area of high need. Perhaps you believe that a need pick has to align with what you personally, or the media generally, perceive to be the greatest need? Personally, I think the record has shown the Packers select players that they need at the top of the draft, although often fans and media have no idea what is really needed.

[hoosier]

I think we desperately need a NT... but need doesn't enter into it for TT. He's said over and over again - and I actually, believe him - that he will take his BPA regardless of position.

Then you are too gullible. :lol:

I've said it before, I don't think anyone can sit there with a straight face and tell me that the Packers Organization does not consider what the team needs. IMHO, the BPA line is a standard company line to derail reporters questions about their personal backseat GMing. Looks like you bought it hook line and sinker.

That is not to say that they never draft players where they already have good players. Drafting a few players at an already strong position is far from taking players without any regard for position. Perhaps if you look past the glitz and glam of the first round picks, you might see that.

The top of the draft is what I'm referring to... I think he addresses "need" further down in the draft, and hopes some of those guys work out; but at the top of the draft, where you're more likely to find difference makers, no, TT has proven he doesn't look at position; I couldn't, and you couldn't, give an example of a 1st round pick that addressed need, unless you count Hawk; but since Hawk is so pedestrian, who cares about him.

That said, Harrell and Nelson alone are enough to make the case that TT doesn't give a tinkers damn about what positions are stocked, and what positions have need... the fact that Harrell is a bust and letting Williams walk notwithstanding.

In the end... unless those lower round guys pan out, he'll always have significant holes on the roster, enough to keep us from taking the next step.

I give TT shit about his annual April shopfest, but I'll admit that he has upgraded the roster from top to bottom from what he inherited; however, without making more of an effort to fill specific holes with top end talent at critical positions, and unless he gets lucky multiple times further down in the draft... we're just keep spinning our wheels.

Let's see, who are the "top of the draft" picks you're referring to? I'll assume for sake of argument we're talking about first and second round picks.
2005: Rodgers, Collins, Murphy.
2006: Hawk, Colledge, Jennings.
2007: Harrell, Jackson.
2008: Nelson, Brohm, Lee.

The ones in bold would definitely qualify as "need" picks by any reasonable standard since they started in their first year. Murphy, Jennings, Jackson and Harrell were also expected to be major contributors in their first or second year, so I don't think you can say those picks didn't fill a need. The only cases that stand out to me as times when TT was definitely thinking of the future and not the present were Rodgers, Lee and Brohm. It's too early to make any intelligent judgment about Brohm and Lee. But in Rodgers's case I can definitely say I'm glad TT wasn't just thinking about 2005 when it came time to make his first pick.

Instead of arguing about draft philosophies, let's try a more concrete exercise: Which of these picks do you think were mistakes and why? Who would you have picked instead of the guys TT picked?

[Waldo]

I dunno, going into Jennings first season Turd was the #2 WR, I'd say there was a need for a WR.

Morency was our #1 RB and Herron our #2 when Jackson was taken. Again, a need pick.

On draft day last year we had 1 QB on the roster. Pretty safe to say that Brohm was a need pick.

[Lurker64]

I'm also somewhat bemused by the fact that people who say both

1) Harrell wasn't a need pick since we were stacked at DT in 2007.
2) The defense was so horrible in 2008 because of all of the holes in the middle of the DL.

It seems like that's trying to have it both ways. There are precious few defensive tackles who come in and produce as rookies. It takes all of them a couple years, but that doesn't mean you don't draft them. You draft a DT because you need one the year after next, not next year since just by the nature of the transition from the college game to the pro game, he's not going to do much for you next year.

You can certainly argue that Harrell was a bad pick, but it's hard to say it's not a need pick, particularly due to how badly the defensive line could use a guy like him to come in and be productive.

[hoosier]

I dunno, going into Jennings first season Turd was the #2 WR, I'd say there was a need for a WR.

Morency was our #1 RB and Herron our #2 when Jackson was taken. Again, a need pick.

On draft day last year we had 1 QB on the roster. Pretty safe to say that Brohm was a need pick.

Yeah, I agree, but I was trying to give our resident skeptic the benefit of the doubt by only counting projected starters and immediate major contributors. If a guy is expected to sit on the bench for a couple of years (which is arguably the case for Lee and Brohm) then it's definitely not a need pick. It's true that Jennings started from the get go, and based on the other options I agree he and Jackson count as need picks, even if Jackson didn't exactly fill the need. :lol:

EDIT: Maybe I'm looking at Brohm too much through what we now know about Rodgers. In April 2008 he was an injury waiting to happen and nobody really knew if he would perform over an entire season. In that context, maybe picking Brohm, who was supposed to be the most NFL-ready of college QBs, really was a need pick. Granted, it turned out the Packers didn't need him, and also that he wouldn't have been ready even if they had needed him, but it was still a need pick.

[RashanGary]

Impressive, Waldo. Very impressive.

[Waldo]

Maybin's pro day was today. That whole 4.8 thing from the combine is a thing of the past.

He's gained a little weight, up to 252.

His first run was a 4.59, his second was a 4.63
He jumped 40.5" and 10'10"

[Bossman641]

I'm also somewhat bemused by the fact that people who say both

1) Harrell wasn't a need pick since we were stacked at DT in 2007.
2) The defense was so horrible in 2008 because of all of the holes in the middle of the DL.

It seems like that's trying to have it both ways. There are precious few defensive tackles who come in and produce as rookies. It takes all of them a couple years, but that doesn't mean you don't draft them. You draft a DT because you need one the year after next, not next year since just by the nature of the transition from the college game to the pro game, he's not going to do much for you next year.

You can certainly argue that Harrell was a bad pick, but it's hard to say it's not a need pick, particularly due to how badly the defensive line could use a guy like him to come in and be productive.

This always cracks me up as well. The same people who argue that Harrell was a horrible pick pick because we didn't need a DT at all are the same ones who say TT ignored the DL in FA last offseason.

[RashanGary]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fiWgAZf0v4


Evander Hood highlights. He closes fast for a big guy. He looks very interesting. Like Waldo said, sometimes if you get a great player on an otherwise average unit, the numbers may not be there because of the extra attention.

It's tough to tell. He looks good, but I'd have to see how his film compares to other college DT's over the years and because I don't have a good feel for that, I don't have a good feel for him.

[Waldo]

If there is one solo storyline coming out if it it’s improvement. Both Aaron Maybin and Derrick Williams feel they did just that today with strong showings in front of NFL reps from teams such as the Eagles, Jags, Patriots, Giants, Jets, Chiefs, Saints, Dolphins and Packers.

http://ericthomas.wordpress.com/

[Waldo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fiWgAZf0v4


Evander Hood highlights. He closes fast for a big guy. He looks very interesting. Like Waldo said, sometimes if you get a great player on an otherwise average unit, the numbers may not be there because of the extra attention.

It's tough to tell. He looks good, but I'd have to see how his film compares to other college DT's over the years and because I don't have a good feel for that, I don't have a good feel for him.

I dunno, he definitely isn't "value" at #9, but if TT has a crazy Harrell/Collins/Jones-like "reach", I'd wager this is the guy.

[red]

Why is Nose Tackle such a glaring need, considering that Ryan Pickett will be playing the exact position he did last year, only he'll be on the field for fewer snaps?

It's an important position, but I think we're a little quick to give up on Pickett, who has long been an anchor on the DL.
I don't think it's a glaring need, and I'm not convinced that Raji is that much better than Jerry or the other NT's in the draft. I think there's a 50-50 chance that TT will trade down because I feel some team desperate for a QB will want to move ahead of San Fran to take Freeman or Sanchez. I voted for Andre Smith because of his potential, long arms, and what he has done on the field. Put him on freeweights with proper training he could be a stud tackle for years to come.

peria jerry is not even close to being big enough to be a NT/ only a handfull of guys in the whole draft are.

and raji is by far the best one out there

jerry would be a de for us, as would hood, and gilbert. and any other dt thats's around 300 or less

the guys that are in the draft that have to size, or are close to the size are

raji
ron brace, from what i read he plays very soft. he'll go late first or early second
terrance taylor- he's a little small at 315. and he doesn't like to work too hard
sammie lee hill, i've seen some really bad stuff on him that he doesn't take well to hard coaching, and has been a classic underachiever

khalif mitchell, east carolina about 320

thats about it for the guys that even come close to having the size to play DT

[Joemailman]

Maybin's pro day was today. That whole 4.8 thing from the combine is a thing of the past.

He's gained a little weight, up to 252.

His first run was a 4.59, his second was a 4.63
He jumped 40.5" and 10'10"


The question with Maybin is whether he can keep the weight on as the season progresses. I've read reports that his weight was down to 225 when Penn State played their bowl game.

[Waldo]

Why is Nose Tackle such a glaring need, considering that Ryan Pickett will be playing the exact position he did last year, only he'll be on the field for fewer snaps?

It's an important position, but I think we're a little quick to give up on Pickett, who has long been an anchor on the DL.
I don't think it's a glaring need, and I'm not convinced that Raji is that much better than Jerry or the other NT's in the draft. I think there's a 50-50 chance that TT will trade down because I feel some team desperate for a QB will want to move ahead of San Fran to take Freeman or Sanchez. I voted for Andre Smith because of his potential, long arms, and what he has done on the field. Put him on freeweights with proper training he could be a stud tackle for years to come.

peria jerry is not even close to being big enough to be a NT/ only a handfull of guys in the whole draft are.

and raji is by far the best one out there

jerry would be a de for us, as would hood, and gilbert. and any other dt thats's around 300 or less

the guys that are in the draft that have to size, or are close to the size are

raji
ron brace, from what i read he plays very soft. he'll go late first or early second
terrance taylor- he's a little small at 315. and he doesn't like to work too hard
sammie lee hill, i've seen some really bad stuff on him that he doesn't take well to hard coaching, and has been a classic underachiever

khalif mitchell, east carolina about 320

thats about it for the guys that even come close to having the size to play DT

You are missing a few

Myron Pryor - 6'0, 319
Roy Miller - 6'1, 310
Dorell Scott - 6'3, 312 (more of a swing guy like Hill, but experienced playing in the A gap in college)
Terrence Knighton - 6'3, 321

You also have to consider guys like Pickett, Hampton, J. Williams, Ratliff, none of them were even close to their current weight on draft day (300-310). It is fairly unnatural to weigh 330+ at 21-22 yrs old being an athlete, those big guys typically have pretty severe weight struggles, which is definitely a huge concern for Raji and Brace, it isn't necessarily the bigger the better, most NT's play best in the 330-340 range, anything more and they lose too much quickness. For backup guys, they often don't have to be a giant, and eat their way into that role over time, what they lose in raw weight to anchor with, they gain in quickness and agility, which can be quite beneficial as they learn the position.

Personally I think that Myron Pryor is the 2nd best NT in the draft, by a pretty good margin. Brace is way too slow to be effective at the NFL level, even at NT. Pryor dominated Eric Wood of Louisville when they clashed; Wood is the #2 C in the draft (he'd be a great pick for us in the 2nd, if he is there), and quite close to Mack in ability, Mack was able to handle Raji 1 on 1.

[Waldo]

Maybin's pro day was today. That whole 4.8 thing from the combine is a thing of the past.

He's gained a little weight, up to 252.

His first run was a 4.59, his second was a 4.63
He jumped 40.5" and 10'10"


The question with Maybin is whether he can keep the weight on as the season progresses. I've read reports that his weight was down to 225 when Penn State played their bowl game.

Always a problem with the younger, skinnier guys, but he went into that season at 240 and lost a bunch of weight early on from sickness that he couldn't gain back over the season. As he gets older though he should be able to handle weight better, he's only 20 I believe.

[KYPack]

Think Pryor will last 'til 41, Waldo?

I've been trying to figure out who the #2 NT is for a month.

[wist43]

The top of the draft is what I'm referring to... I think he addresses "need" further down in the draft, and hopes some of those guys work out; but at the top of the draft, where you're more likely to find difference makers, no, TT has proven he doesn't look at position; I couldn't, and you couldn't, give an example of a 1st round pick that addressed need, unless you count Hawk; but since Hawk is so pedestrian, who cares about him.

That said, Harrell and Nelson alone are enough to make the case that TT doesn't give a tinkers damn about what positions are stocked, and what positions have need... the fact that Harrell is a bust and letting Williams walk notwithstanding.

In the end... unless those lower round guys pan out, he'll always have significant holes on the roster, enough to keep us from taking the next step.

I give TT shit about his annual April shopfest, but I'll admit that he has upgraded the roster from top to bottom from what he inherited; however, without making more of an effort to fill specific holes with top end talent at critical positions, and unless he gets lucky multiple times further down in the draft... we're just keep spinning our wheels.

You are mixing your arguments with Hawk. It is one thing to say the Packers don't address needs and entirely another to say that the Packers were unsuccessful eventhough they did try to address a need. Two completely unrelated concepts. Actually, you are arguing against yourself. You claim that the only need pick turned out to be pedestrian, suggesting that it was not a good selection.

Regarding your belief that the Packer's Organization doesn't address needs in the first round. Need 1st round picks include: Rodgers, Hawk, Harrell. How can you argue that these guys were not needs?

Last year our DL really needed Harrell = clear need (I realize that many outside of the Packer's Organization did not understand the need on draft day. That doesn't mean it didn't exist, and the facts show just how much of a need it was).

Hawk, starter from day 1, and nobody behind him seems capable = clear need.

Rodgers, current starter and could have been a year before pending the annual Favre wait = clear need. You have repeatedly stated that QB needs to be at a hall-of-fame level of for the Packer's offense. Yet, somehow, Rodgers isn't a need pick?

Seems pretty clear to me that looking back every single 1st round pick was an area of high need. Perhaps you believe that a need pick has to align with what you personally, or the media generally, perceive to be the greatest need? Personally, I think the record has shown the Packers select players that they need at the top of the draft, although often fans and media have no idea what is really needed.

So you're saying that TT does, in fact, always address need - his own protestations not withwithstanding - and that he sucks as a talent evaluator???

He either doesn't care about needs, and that is why our defense sucks, and OL for that matter; or, he always addresses need, but just plain and simply sucks as a talent evaluator... somehow or another 6-10 has to be accounted for... a bump in the road on the way to winning the next 4 superbowls???

To date, he's a sub .500 GM.

[sharpe1027]

So you're saying that TT does, in fact, always address need - his own protestations not withwithstanding

Yes. I don't feel I am going out on a limb in saying that the Packer's Organization looks at team needs when drafting.



- and that he sucks as a talent evaluator???


Maybe. I think that the finished product didn't add up to what it seemed on paper last year, but two years ago it was the same thing in reverse.



He either doesn't care about needs, and that is why our defense sucks, and OL for that matter; or, he always addresses need, but just plain and simply sucks as a talent evaluator... somehow or another 6-10 has to be accounted for... a bump in the road on the way to winning the next 4 superbowls???

To date, he's a sub .500 GM.

Has to be black and white with you, eh? You seem to ignore the substance of the discussion when you seek a strict yes or no answer. My answer has been a consistent maybe. :)

[red]

Why is Nose Tackle such a glaring need, considering that Ryan Pickett will be playing the exact position he did last year, only he'll be on the field for fewer snaps?

It's an important position, but I think we're a little quick to give up on Pickett, who has long been an anchor on the DL.
I don't think it's a glaring need, and I'm not convinced that Raji is that much better than Jerry or the other NT's in the draft. I think there's a 50-50 chance that TT will trade down because I feel some team desperate for a QB will want to move ahead of San Fran to take Freeman or Sanchez. I voted for Andre Smith because of his potential, long arms, and what he has done on the field. Put him on freeweights with proper training he could be a stud tackle for years to come.

peria jerry is not even close to being big enough to be a NT/ only a handfull of guys in the whole draft are.

and raji is by far the best one out there

jerry would be a de for us, as would hood, and gilbert. and any other dt thats's around 300 or less

the guys that are in the draft that have to size, or are close to the size are

raji
ron brace, from what i read he plays very soft. he'll go late first or early second
terrance taylor- he's a little small at 315. and he doesn't like to work too hard
sammie lee hill, i've seen some really bad stuff on him that he doesn't take well to hard coaching, and has been a classic underachiever

khalif mitchell, east carolina about 320

thats about it for the guys that even come close to having the size to play DT

You are missing a few

Myron Pryor - 6'0, 319
Roy Miller - 6'1, 310
Dorell Scott - 6'3, 312 (more of a swing guy like Hill, but experienced playing in the A gap in college)
Terrence Knighton - 6'3, 321




i only have pryor listed at 310 from a few different sources (mags, net, not people). and i can't find much that has a lot of hope for the guy, what have you seen that's different?

same things have roy miller at 300-302, dorell scott is right, but then they have knighton at 295ish, he must have really balloned before the combine. the temple site even has him at 291 during the season

those guys, for me, are not big enough. unless they go on the double quarter pounder diet

[red]

of course, my ultimate dream would be to pass on raji. find something for a year to help out pickett, maybe grady?

then hope to god we are somehow in a position next year to draft the ultimate mountain of a man............

terrence cody

[Joemailman]

Red, Grady Jackson signed with the Lions

http://www.supplementgenius.com/images/grady.jpeg

[wist43]

Red, Grady Jackson signed with the Lions

http://www.supplementgenius.com/images/grady.jpeg

LMAO... :lol:

[Waldo]

Think Pryor will last 'til 41, Waldo?

I've been trying to figure out who the #2 NT is for a month.

He should be there in the 3rd, but I wouldn't count on him beyond that.

The thing is, none of them are at Raji's level, including Raji, right now his reputation is much better than the player, but he definitely is the best of the bunch, by a good margin.

Play style is more important than ht/wt. Of all the 3-4 NT's, the only 3 that actually weighed 3-4 NT playing weight on draft day are Wilfork, Ngata, and Pouha. Guys that can hold the point, handle getting double teamed, and can manhandle C's one on one against the run, and naturally understand the use of leverage are the guys that you are looking for.

It depends on what you are looking for. For a backup/developmental guy, this is a great class, a lot of the later guys have the physical ability, frame, and correct playing style. They can be rotational guys from day 1 and take a few snaps here and there. In fact this class can move unusually well, one of the things the later guys typically cannot do. There are probably going to be a few good players down the line that come from the later rounds, that need a little experience and coaching to thrive. With good scouting and some luck a team has a decent chance of landing a guy that is starting quality in 2-3 years.

For a starter, there is only 1, Raji. Raji should be able to displace Pickett by later in the season and surely will next year (no way Pickett will be resigned if we draft Raji, so we'll be looking for Raji's backup next year).

[Bretsky]

I highly doubt Raji is even there

I still think Crabtree is a star and if he's there at nine we should be considering him. Then again that's part of why I believe you help your weakensses in free agency so you can draft the BPA without hardly thinking of needs.

[wist43]

So you're saying that TT does, in fact, always address need - his own protestations not withwithstanding

Yes. I don't feel I am going out on a limb in saying that the Packer's Organization looks at team needs when drafting.



- and that he sucks as a talent evaluator???


Maybe. I think that the finished product didn't add up to what it seemed on paper last year, but two years ago it was the same thing in reverse.



He either doesn't care about needs, and that is why our defense sucks, and OL for that matter; or, he always addresses need, but just plain and simply sucks as a talent evaluator... somehow or another 6-10 has to be accounted for... a bump in the road on the way to winning the next 4 superbowls???

To date, he's a sub .500 GM.

Has to be black and white with you, eh? You seem to ignore the substance of the discussion when you seek a strict yes or no answer. My answer has been a consistent maybe. :)

No, not necessarily B/W for me... I'm a middle of the roader with TT, i.e. decent talent evaluator (the Harrell fiasco notwithstanding), average GM.

I'm with you to a certain extent on some of this stuff; however, unless TT changes his stripes I'm pretty sure a SB is a long shot...

He's going to have to land a few ProBowl calibur players later in the draft, and the timing is going to have to be such that they peak at just the right time, i.e. b/4 TT has a chance to push his draft class 4 years removed off the roster. I consider the NFL to be a 4 year cycle league... TT has been here four years. Are we substantially better now than we were four years ago??? I would argue we're better, but not that much better, and certainly not nearly good enough.

My God, how many players has he drafted in the last 4 years??? Most in the NFL I'm sure... with another 10-12 coming this year. If his goal is to remain the youngest team in the league year after year... he's aces.

[sharpe1027]

No, not necessarily B/W for me... I'm a middle of the roader with TT, i.e. decent talent evaluator (the Harrell fiasco notwithstanding), average GM.

I'm with you to a certain extent on some of this stuff; however, unless TT changes his stripes I'm pretty sure a SB is a long shot...

He's going to have to land a few ProBowl calibur players later in the draft, and the timing is going to have to be such that they peak at just the right time, i.e. b/4 TT has a chance to push his draft class 4 years removed off the roster. I consider the NFL to be a 4 year cycle league... TT has been here four years. Are we substantially better now than we were four years ago??? I would argue we're better, but not that much better, and certainly not nearly good enough.

My God, how many players has he drafted in the last 4 years??? Most in the NFL I'm sure... with another 10-12 coming this year. If his goal is to remain the youngest team in the league year after year... he's aces.

Yeah, usually people aren't as far off in their ultimate positions as it might seem. Would you want them trade up from #9 then? Who would you like to see the Packers grab?

I would prefer getting out of the top few picks and maybe getting a pick next year in exchange. Some team always seems to over-value the top few picks, and I don't see the value being that much different at the top this year.

I don't think you remain the youngest team in the league unless the new guys are better, which is a good thing. Now that they have some established guys in there, the competition should be much tougher, and I predict we will see more draft picks that don't make the team this year. That is a good sign, however, and doesn't mean that drafting more guys is a bad thing. As long as the guys that do make it are solid contributers, I could care less what round they came from or how many other guys didn't make the team.

[SnakeLH2006]

Snake is a HUGE fan of getting a BJ...ALWAYS. Yet if Raji ain't there I'd settle for "Manboobs" Smith as he'd be a steal at #9 with his talent. Snake don't care as long as we get a starting/franchise NT or OT. We'd better or TT's parking space will have the stank of urine for most of 2009. :shock:

[TheCheese]

Waldo you are a bad ass poster, very nice work man.

My guy is still Larry English and I'm hoping we trade down to the 16ish area to take him with some team hoping to scoop up Sanchez.

I gotta admit I'm pretty ignorant on Hood but he sounds intriguing and It very well could be that out from no where pick TT often executes.

I just think English is going to be the best pass rusher out of this draft and if we added him across Kampman that would be hugely beneficial. His Pro day is March 27th and its pretty damn important because of his disappointing 40 yard dash at the combine. I'm not too worried about it though because he had an excellent vertical. I have trust in the pick we go for as long as it's not an ILB or QB. But I would be stoked as hell if we got English to be our rush backer.

[Fritz]

Snake is a HUGE fan of getting a BJ...ALWAYS. Yet if Raji ain't there I'd settle for "Manboobs" Smith as he'd be a steal at #9 with his talent. Snake don't care as long as we get a starting/franchise NT or OT. We'd better or TT's parking space will have the stank of urine for most of 2009. :shock:

"Manboobs" Smith.

It's got a ring to it, don't it?

Good work, Snakey boy.

[wist43]

No, not necessarily B/W for me... I'm a middle of the roader with TT, i.e. decent talent evaluator (the Harrell fiasco notwithstanding), average GM.

I'm with you to a certain extent on some of this stuff; however, unless TT changes his stripes I'm pretty sure a SB is a long shot...

He's going to have to land a few ProBowl calibur players later in the draft, and the timing is going to have to be such that they peak at just the right time, i.e. b/4 TT has a chance to push his draft class 4 years removed off the roster. I consider the NFL to be a 4 year cycle league... TT has been here four years. Are we substantially better now than we were four years ago??? I would argue we're better, but not that much better, and certainly not nearly good enough.

My God, how many players has he drafted in the last 4 years??? Most in the NFL I'm sure... with another 10-12 coming this year. If his goal is to remain the youngest team in the league year after year... he's aces.

Yeah, usually people aren't as far off in their ultimate positions as it might seem. Would you want them trade up from #9 then? Who would you like to see the Packers grab?

I would prefer getting out of the top few picks and maybe getting a pick next year in exchange. Some team always seems to over-value the top few picks, and I don't see the value being that much different at the top this year.

I don't think you remain the youngest team in the league unless the new guys are better, which is a good thing. Now that they have some established guys in there, the competition should be much tougher, and I predict we will see more draft picks that don't make the team this year. That is a good sign, however, and doesn't mean that drafting more guys is a bad thing. As long as the guys that do make it are solid contributers, I could care less what round they came from or how many other guys didn't make the team.

I haven't studied the draft much yet... just looked at Orakpo and Raji b/c they fill needs IMO.

In general, I think when you're rebuilding, trading down makes a lot of sense... but once you've reached a level where your roster has been upgraded to a point where you feel like you have competition at every position, and you're backups are legitimately pushing the starters for playing time, then I think you need to look at finding legitimate difference makers.

If that means trading up, then trade up; if it means giving up draft choices for a vet, then do it... TT really hasn't shown a willingness to alter his approach...

Outta time... gotta run... TBC, lol :)

[sheepshead]

GET OUT OF THE FIRST ROUND NOW!

[Fritz]

Why? Are there no players who can help the Packers that will be available in the first round?

What if Raji was available at #9? Would you still want to get out of the first round?

[CaliforniaCheez]

Pickett and Jolly are in the last year of their contracts.

Right now the Packer roster lists at NT:

Pickett
Toribio
Bledsoe


At DE

Harrell
Jolly
Jenkins
Malone
Montgomery


That should tell you enough about the draft. I expect at least 4 of the 9 picks to be D linemen.

[wist43]

Pickett and Jolly are in the last year of their contracts.

Right now the Packer roster lists at NT:

Pickett
Toribio
Bledsoe


At DE

Harrell
Jolly
Jenkins
Malone
Montgomery


That should tell you enough about the draft. I expect at least 4 of the 9 picks to be D linemen.

Devastating, intimidating depth chart... if I were an opposing coach, I would just punt on first down rather than face that murderers row :lol:

Better yet, punting might be fraught with peril as well... just snap it and tell the punter to run into the end zone for a safety.

[red]

for me there are now just two players i would go after

raji, and if he's not there, i'd take tyson jackson at #9. i wouldn't even trade down to get him. we might just end up losing him like we did flowers last year if we did.

we add one of those two guys and i think we're on our way to building a nice d-line

to me those are the 2 most dominate 3-4 linemen in the draft

[Bretsky]

for me there are now just two players i would go after

raji, and if he's not there, i'd take tyson jackson at #9. i wouldn't even trade down to get him. we might just end up losing him like we did flowers last year if we did.

we add one of those two guys and i think we're on our way to building a nice d-line

to me those are the 2 most dominate 3-4 linemen in the draft


I don't think TT thought much of Flowers last year

He was the name who fell and anybody who followed the draft closely would have figured he was going to go at any time. He fell into our lap. And TT traded down.

I just want TT to draft a star; hope Raji is there but highly doubt he will be

[red]

for me there are now just two players i would go after

raji, and if he's not there, i'd take tyson jackson at #9. i wouldn't even trade down to get him. we might just end up losing him like we did flowers last year if we did.

we add one of those two guys and i think we're on our way to building a nice d-line

to me those are the 2 most dominate 3-4 linemen in the draft


I don't think TT thought much of Flowers last year

He was the name who fell and anybody who followed the draft closely would have figured he was going to go at any time. He fell into our lap. And TT traded down.

I just want TT to draft a star; hope Raji is there but highly doubt he will be

no, tt said something about him in an interview after the pick on draft day. he said something a long the lines that they liked him, but something lol. it made it sound like they wanted him, but thought they could trade down and still get him, whichc didn't work.

at least thats what i took from it

[Bretsky]

for me there are now just two players i would go after

raji, and if he's not there, i'd take tyson jackson at #9. i wouldn't even trade down to get him. we might just end up losing him like we did flowers last year if we did.

we add one of those two guys and i think we're on our way to building a nice d-line

to me those are the 2 most dominate 3-4 linemen in the draft


I don't think TT thought much of Flowers last year

He was the name who fell and anybody who followed the draft closely would have figured he was going to go at any time. He fell into our lap. And TT traded down.

I just want TT to draft a star; hope Raji is there but highly doubt he will be

no, tt said something about him in an interview after the pick on draft day. he said something a long the lines that they liked him, but something lol. it made it sound like they wanted him, but thought they could trade down and still get him, whichc didn't work.

at least thats what i took from it



interesting; we were both in the draft room hoping for Brandon Flowers. Man.......if we had only taken him.

We'd be more flexible to draft the top WR in the draft this year then :lol:

[Pugger]

If we draft a guy named Ziggy, will that automatically make MJ his biggest fan? If it happens will she change her title to Hood Rat?

She can change her title?? :?:

[packrulz]

Kind of interesting to look back at last years draft, we voted for the right man!

[Bretsky]

My view stubbornly remains the same that most of you guys were wrong :lol: