Packers' FA re-signing dilemma

[Patler]

We all know that the Packers have a large group of FAs-to-be, with contracts expiring after 2009. Re-signing all may not be possible, and it would be preferable to attempt to sign them in order of value or importance. It would also be desirable to start early. It would be next to impossible to work deals with all of them after the 2009 season ends but before FA starts. Besides, the closer it gets to FA, the less incentive there is for the player to sign without testing FA.

Unfortunately, it will not be easy for several reasons. The problems faced by the Packers for players in the order that I think they should be in for re-signing:

Jennings - no issues. Try to work out a deal.
Kampman - what is he worth? Will he fit as a LB in a 3-4? You really have to wait and see.
Collins - a one year wonder? How quickly can he pick up the new D? Is he a good fit?
Pickett - is he a good fit in the new D? Is he breaking down?
Colledge - pay as a G? LT? RT? Could be the one you let leave when evaluating the cost/value to the team.
Spitz - is he a guard or center? How much are the years invested in him worth?
Jolly - does he fit the new D? and end? NT? does he go to jail?
Clifton - anything left worth bringing back?

The others you would want to sign with money "left over" from the more critical signings. But even they have questions about them:
Chiller - does he fit the new "D"?
Blackmon - just a returner? Just punts? KO return value?
Moll - do you want him back? At what price?

It would be good to get a head start on dealing with this group. Unfortunately, except for Jennings, you almost have to wait until well into the season before dealing with most of the others.

[wist43]

The only guy I care about on that list is Jennings... TT will likely take a big swing at Colledge though. I don't like Colledge, too much of a punk, and too inconsistent.

I love Kamp, but the protestations of the homers on this board notwithstanding, he simply isn't a fit in a 3-4, unless he bulks up and plays end... but then the salary he could command doesn't fit that slot. That said, I think they will resign him to a big contract, and his effectiveness in relation to his contract will be marginal.

TT's mantra all along has been to resign "his" own... so I would expect that he would try to resign most of those guys. Clifton is at the end though, so I don't expect him back.

[Packnut]

Jennings and Colledge are the only must signs on the list. Like Wist, I'm not enamored with Colledge either, but there is no other choice due to poor drafting.

Blackmon is important in the fact that I don't worry about him dropping a punt and he'll be cheap to re-sign.

Kampman must prove he can play in the new system, so discussing him is a mute point right now.

Collins was so horrible before last season that he has no right to be playing hardball at this point.

[RashanGary]

Jennings, Kampman, Colledge, Pickett and Spitz I'd lock up right away. Collins I would be more stubborn with. I'd use the franchise tag if he thinks he should be paid like Bob Sanders or Troy Polamolu. If his agent is reasonable, I'd do something right away, but I think his is going to be the stickiest because of the probowl and him really not being a great player.

I'd consider Jolly at the right (pay as you go) deal.

[RashanGary]

I was one of the biggest Colledge detractors here. When the pick was first made, I said it was a desperation pick and a reach because of need.

After the first two years, I said he was junk. I said he gets pushed around inside and beat badly when he played outside. He was definitly not a LT and it was looking like he was junk at guard. I was still one of the biggest detractors, saying "he's not going to come around".

But, after all of that, he came back and had a great season. He's not an elite drive blocker, but he did a solid job and he's really good at everything else.He can move. He can drive block. He can pull. He's a hell of a pass protector inside. First and second impression aside, I've been saying for a few months now that Colledge is a bonafide Tausher level lineman and should be paid as such. I'd love it if Sitton becomes legit because Sitton is more of a road grader type and it would be a good match with Colledge, who is more of the athletic, versatile type.

[red]

kampman is an interesting situation.

i think they need to figure out pretty quick if he can play olb. if he can't then maybe they need to trade him while his value is still sky high. if he plays a season at olb and sucks then his value will probably go down.

its tough, on one hand he's the best defensive player we have, and the exact kind of player you would want on your team. on the other hand, if he can't play in the new system, you're looking at something like what the allen trade brought

[sheepshead]

Good post. Nice to see something other than all the free agent drooling and TT bashing.

[Patler]

I am hopeful that Kampman will show very quickly that he can play in the new D
The knock against Collins coming out was that he would be slow in grasping the D. He was. Will he be starting all over in the 3-4?

[Patler]

I was one of the biggest Colledge detractors here. When the pick was first made, I said it was a desperation pick and a reach because of need.

After the first two years, I said he was junk. I said he gets pushed around inside and beat badly when he played outside. He was definitly not a LT and it was looking like he was junk at guard. I was still one of the biggest detractors, saying "he's not going to come around".

But, after all of that, he came back and had a great season. He's not an elite drive blocker, but he did a solid job and he's really good at everything else.He can move. He can drive block. He can pull. He's a hell of a pass protector inside. First and second impression aside, I've been saying for a few months now that Colledge is a bonafide Tausher level lineman and should be paid as such. I'd love it if Sitton becomes legit because Sitton is more of a road grader type and it would be a good match with Colledge, who is more of the athletic, versatile type.

Colledge improved a lot, but he still has a long way to go to be considered a cornerstone to build around. At least last year he started making plays at times like they hoped he would. He was still annoyingly inconsistent. He was no where near the "hell ofa pass protector" you described. He gave up more sacks than anyone but Clifton, and gave up more pressures than either Wells or Spitz.

I would not consider Colledge for any sizable contract until he proves in '09 that the good parts of '08 were not flukes, and that the bad parts of '08 will continue to diminish.

[Patler]

Blackmon is important in the fact that I don't worry about him dropping a punt and he'll be cheap to re-sign.

It is nice finally having a guy who can both catch and run, isn't it? Chatman could catch it. Running was a different matter!

I wonder if Nelson would be an alternative to Blackmon? I expect to see him get lots of preseason opportunities.

[texaspackerbacker]

A lot depends on this season.

Go all out for Jennings; Probably the same for Kampman unless he flops in the 3-4--which I doubt; Ditto that for Collins; Try, but don't sell the farm for Colledge, Spitz, and Jolly; Lowball Pickett unless he has a really outstanding season; Lowball Clifton if he seems worth a contract at all; Don't offer Chillar much unless he comes through bigger than I expect; Keep Blackmon unless the price gets too outlandish; Lowball Moll.

[Partial]

Good post Patler. Jennings is the real deal and needs to be locked up, but their are a lot of questions with the others.

[bobblehead]

I think its going to be a busy '09. Basically I think everyone on this list needs to be resigned if possible and reasonable. I think Clifton is the only exception as he is finished imo. Pickett might prove to be done as well, but I want to see this year before determining that.

Like JH I am high on college. I think he is a natural tackle and I want to see him play there this season (right or left). You raise valid questions for many of them and I think other than jennings you make everyone play a few games this season before reworking anyone unless they sign a very friendly deal.

If collins starts out like he finished last year (and TWill) then try and get them done quick. If Kampman looks comfortable and effective he has to be done fast too.

College, Spitz, and Jolly would be the next three to extend if they answer the questions. The rest can wait until the end of the season I think.

No matter how you slice it, we could win 14 games and someone will be calling for TT's head when he is unable to sign at least one of these guys.

[Joemailman]

I was one of the biggest Colledge detractors here. When the pick was first made, I said it was a desperation pick and a reach because of need.

After the first two years, I said he was junk. I said he gets pushed around inside and beat badly when he played outside. He was definitly not a LT and it was looking like he was junk at guard. I was still one of the biggest detractors, saying "he's not going to come around".

But, after all of that, he came back and had a great season. He's not an elite drive blocker, but he did a solid job and he's really good at everything else.He can move. He can drive block. He can pull. He's a hell of a pass protector inside. First and second impression aside, I've been saying for a few months now that Colledge is a bonafide Tausher level lineman and should be paid as such. I'd love it if Sitton becomes legit because Sitton is more of a road grader type and it would be a good match with Colledge, who is more of the athletic, versatile type.

Colledge improved a lot, but he still has a long way to go to be considered a cornerstone to build around. At least last year he started making plays at times like they hoped he would. He was still annoyingly inconsistent. He was no where near the "hell ofa pass protector" you described. He gave up more sacks than anyone but Clifton, and gave up more pressures than either Wells or Spitz.

I would not consider Colledge for any sizable contract until he proves in '09 that the good parts of '08 were not flukes, and that the bad parts of '08 will continue to diminish.

The key to making a decision on Colledge is determining whether he is the heir apparent to Clifton. If they are convinced he is, I think they have to pay him accordingly. If Clifton doesn't look any better in training camp than he did last year, I think they should consider releasing him so they can see what Colledge can do if given the starting LT job consistently.

[red]

realistically, what are we looking at to resign jennings

something like 9-10 million a year? 20 million bonus money?

last year lee evan signed a 4 year 37 million dollar deal with 18 million in guaranteed money. that made him the 3rd highest paid wr at the time

IMO

jennings > evens. with more potential

would TT even keep him if he costs that much? honestly, if we sign all our own free agents to market value then we'll be right back up against the cap and maybe back in cap hell. if we can even sign them all

right back where we started

[Patler]

realistically, what are we looking at to resign jennings

something like 9-10 million a year? 20 million bonus money?

last year lee evan signed a 4 year 37 million dollar deal with 18 million in guaranteed money. that made him the 3rd highest paid wr at the time

IMO

jennings > evens. with more potential

would TT even keep him if he costs that much? honestly, if we sign all our own free agents to market value then we'll be right back up against the cap and maybe back in cap hell. if we can even sign them all

right back where we started

I kind of doubt that TT will spend that to keep Jennings.

I have always felt that the top WRs are among the most overpaid positions in football. I know many will disagree with me, but I have a hard time understanding why a guy who touches the ball just 7 or 8 times a game is worth that kind of money, when if you don't have him someone else will get many of those receptions anyway. I also think you can be effective with a much less expensive, second level talent at WR. Your passing game may change, but can still be productive.

[Bretsky]

realistically, what are we looking at to resign jennings

something like 9-10 million a year? 20 million bonus money?

last year lee evan signed a 4 year 37 million dollar deal with 18 million in guaranteed money. that made him the 3rd highest paid wr at the time

IMO

jennings > evens. with more potential

would TT even keep him if he costs that much? honestly, if we sign all our own free agents to market value then we'll be right back up against the cap and maybe back in cap hell. if we can even sign them all

right back where we started

I kind of doubt that TT will spend that to keep Jennings.

I have always felt that the top WRs are among the most overpaid positions in football. I know many will disagree with me, but I have a hard time understanding why a guy who touches the ball just 7 or 8 times a game is worth that kind of money, when if you don't have him someone else will get many of those receptions anyway. I also think you can be effective with a much less expensive, second level talent at WR. Your passing game may change, but can still be productive.



When I saw that Evens deal I was sick; Jennings is far better. If you believe TT takes care of his own, you'd believe TT will make the highest priority to sign Jennings. He can frontload a bunch into next year if he chooses.

Then again if TT drafts Crabtree............

[Patler]

When I saw that Evens deal I was sick; Jennings is far better. If you believe TT takes care of his own, you'd believe TT will make the highest priority to sign Jennings. He can frontload a bunch into next year if he chooses.

Then again if TT drafts Crabtree............

I doubt it will be Crabtree, but I wouldn't be surprised to see another first day pick at WR. If you can keep a steady stream of players like Murphy, Jennings, Jones, Nelson coming along with rookie contracts, and you keep one as the next generation of Donald Driver at a reasonable cost, you might never have to pay the outlandish cost for a top veteran.

[red]

realistically, what are we looking at to resign jennings

something like 9-10 million a year? 20 million bonus money?

last year lee evan signed a 4 year 37 million dollar deal with 18 million in guaranteed money. that made him the 3rd highest paid wr at the time

IMO

jennings > evens. with more potential

would TT even keep him if he costs that much? honestly, if we sign all our own free agents to market value then we'll be right back up against the cap and maybe back in cap hell. if we can even sign them all

right back where we started

I kind of doubt that TT will spend that to keep Jennings.

I have always felt that the top WRs are among the most overpaid positions in football. I know many will disagree with me, but I have a hard time understanding why a guy who touches the ball just 7 or 8 times a game is worth that kind of money, when if you don't have him someone else will get many of those receptions anyway. I also think you can be effective with a much less expensive, second level talent at WR. Your passing game may change, but can still be productive.

ok, so lets say TT doesn't want to pay him what he's worth

what do we o with him then?

try and trade him now? what would we be looking at in return?

or do we keep him this year and slap the tag on him next year, and then try and trade him?

has there been anything like that recently? a very good looking very young wr being traded?

[red]

I was one of the biggest Colledge detractors here. When the pick was first made, I said it was a desperation pick and a reach because of need.

After the first two years, I said he was junk. I said he gets pushed around inside and beat badly when he played outside. He was definitly not a LT and it was looking like he was junk at guard. I was still one of the biggest detractors, saying "he's not going to come around".

But, after all of that, he came back and had a great season. He's not an elite drive blocker, but he did a solid job and he's really good at everything else.He can move. He can drive block. He can pull. He's a hell of a pass protector inside. First and second impression aside, I've been saying for a few months now that Colledge is a bonafide Tausher level lineman and should be paid as such. I'd love it if Sitton becomes legit because Sitton is more of a road grader type and it would be a good match with Colledge, who is more of the athletic, versatile type.

Colledge improved a lot, but he still has a long way to go to be considered a cornerstone to build around. At least last year he started making plays at times like they hoped he would. He was still annoyingly inconsistent. He was no where near the "hell ofa pass protector" you described. He gave up more sacks than anyone but Clifton, and gave up more pressures than either Wells or Spitz.

I would not consider Colledge for any sizable contract until he proves in '09 that the good parts of '08 were not flukes, and that the bad parts of '08 will continue to diminish.

i'm with you on colledge

is there anyway you can find out howmany times he was flagged last year? it seemed to be quite a bit

[Patler]

i'm with you on colledge

is there anyway you can find out howmany times he was flagged last year? it seemed to be quite a bit

Six in total, four false starts, 2 holds.

[red]

i'm with you on colledge

is there anyway you can find out howmany times he was flagged last year? it seemed to be quite a bit

Six in total, four false starts, 2 holds.

well, i guess that isn't a lot

[vince]

I think a lot of these deals will be done during the season, because so much is unknowable until after the draft and things shake out a bit more through training camp and early season.

TT's going to have to open up the coffers to land Jennings, and the numbers that I've seen in the past seem fair. He's a legit homerun threat, and that helps make everyone on the offense a bit better.

McCarthy has said that both Giacomini and Barbre will get first look at RT, assuming Tausch doesn't return, and he also said that Clifton should be healthier than last year after getting his knees cleaned out.

Obviously, we'll see about all that, but that means Colledge is slated at this point to stay at guard, which is what his contract should be based on. His deal may need to be adjusted if/when he proves himself at tackle, but not until then. That may be 2 years yet, and may never happen.

I'd like to see Spitz retained and take over the Center spot so Wells can provide experienced backup play and incur less wear and tear on his undersized frame. Spitz' size, attitude, and now experience in this offense make him valuable to the team.

Kampman isn't exactly a speed rusher, and it's possible that a stud OLB is selected early in the draft who performs at a high level and a guy like Thompson could respond well to the scheme change. That scenario would dramatically reduce the need to give Kampman the kind of deal he might think he could get with guys like Dan Snyder out there.

I'd like to see the team get in position to let Jolly move on after this year. He's proven little beyond average run-stuffing and pass-rushing ability and has also proven to lack the desire for greatness based on his off-the-field behavior. This makes him a high-risk second-contract guy.

Re-up Pickett to a fair deal, as he can be transitioned in the next few years into more of a rotation at NT as hopefully a young player or two develops there.

We will likely draft at least one O-lineman, who hopefully shows more potential than Moll has.

I'd like to see Blackmon retained (as long as he's realistic about his value) because he's at minimum serviceable as a dimeback and explosive as a returner.

[Patler]

Vince;

I agree with all that you wrote. It looks like it will be a very busy time in season for Russ Ball. I expect little to get done with the FA list until during the season. Maybe Jennings, maybe some of the lower end guys on low level contracts. Not much with the starters.

[RashanGary]

Vince;

I agree with all that you wrote. It looks like it will be a very busy time in season for Russ Ball. I expect little to get done with the FA list until during the season. Maybe Jennings, maybe some of the lower end guys on low level contracts. Not much with the starters.

That is a big mistake IMO. You or I might not be sold on any one but Jennings, but Thompson is paid to have foresight. Waiting till a guy breaks out and becomes a proven commodity as they hit UFA is a disaster. Waiting half the season as he becomes a proven commodity is a disaster because why not wait 8 more games till the monster pay day.

As far as I'm concerned, whatever players Ted Thompson believes are long term starters need to be locked up before the season starts. I would not be surprised if 3 or 4 of the top 5 are signed before the season. Rodgers got locked up a year and half before his contract expired and that was before he even had a full season in. Thompson is perfectly comfortable locking up a player he thinks is on the rise for a big pay day. Why? Because if you wait you either lose that same player or you get crippled paying him the UFA price of a proven commodity. Using foresight is bold, but it saves huge money and we all know that having the most talent gives you the best chance at a SB and overpaying talent makes it nearly impossible to compete with the Blitzburghs that don't overpay. If you know enough to make a move early and save money, you need to do that. UFA is absolutely crippling.

If Ted does not have a couple of these guys locked up before the season and most of the ones that turn out to be good ones early in the season, then he should be fired. You don't get paid to sit with your thumb up your ass when it's time to take advantage of your leverage.

[Lurker64]

I think it would be a good idea to pay Colledge (as a Guard) now, so when he moves out to Tackle full time he'll be a comparative bargain. If you wait to pay him after he's installed at T, he's going to cost a lot more.

[RashanGary]

I think it would be a good idea to pay Colledge (as a Guard) now, so when he moves out to Tackle full time he'll be a comparative bargain. If you wait to pay him after he's installed at T, he's going to cost a lot more.

That's true. Waiting till guys become proven to everyone is the absolute worst time to pay them (esspecially when proven and UFA come at the same time). Look at NIck Collins he and his agent think they are all proven. Now it's a nightmare. You have to have foresight to avoid things like that. Look at that fat deal he gave Kampman just before he broke out and made the deal look tiny. That is what a GM is paid to do. He's paid to pay a guy before he breaks out and reap the benefits of the good contract.

We might not have enough info, but Ted should. He gets paid to project college talent. He should be a fucking ace at projecting the guys he's watched every day at practice and in every NFL game for 3 years. There is no way he should wait until the middle or end of next season. That is asking for disaster and proves he's a coward that should not be an NFL GM. It's not time to let these guys get away and it's not time to sit on your hands so you can overpay them in UFA and cripple your franchise. IT's time to lock our guys up and grow together as a team. It's time to shed that youngest team in the league title. Now is the time for Ted Thompson to win.

[Guiness]

i'm with you on colledge

is there anyway you can find out howmany times he was flagged last year? it seemed to be quite a bit

Six in total, four false starts, 2 holds.
well, i guess that isn't a lot

You sure on the two holds? I see a couple places that say he had two holds, but the Green Bay Press Gazette said he had 6 penalties, but only one hold, one ineligible man downfield (which was a bogus call). I think other places just lumped those together.

One hold on the year is pretty good - except that he was charged with allowing 6 sacks! I'd rather a couple more hold, and a couple less sacks, all things considered.

[Patler]

i'm with you on colledge

is there anyway you can find out howmany times he was flagged last year? it seemed to be quite a bit

Six in total, four false starts, 2 holds.
well, i guess that isn't a lot

You sure on the two holds? I see a couple places that say he had two holds, but the Green Bay Press Gazette said he had 6 penalties, but only one hold, one ineligible man downfield (which was a bogus call). I think other places just lumped those together.

One hold on the year is pretty good - except that he was charged with allowing 6 sacks! I'd rather a couple more hold, and a couple less sacks, all things considered.

I got my info form the Packer website. They list accepted penalties by type/person/game.

[vince]

I think it would be a good idea to pay Colledge (as a Guard) now, so when he moves out to Tackle full time he'll be a comparative bargain. If you wait to pay him after he's installed at T, he's going to cost a lot more.

That's true. Waiting till guys become proven to everyone is the absolute worst time to pay them (esspecially when proven and UFA come at the same time). Look at NIck Collins he and his agent think they are all proven. Now it's a nightmare. You have to have foresight to avoid things like that. Look at that fat deal he gave Kampman just before he broke out and made the deal look tiny. That is what a GM is paid to do. He's paid to pay a guy before he breaks out and reap the benefits of the good contract.

We might not have enough info, but Ted should. He gets paid to project college talent. He should be a fucking ace at projecting the guys he's watched every day at practice and in every NFL game for 3 years. There is no way he should wait until the middle or end of next season. That is asking for disaster and proves he's a coward that should not be an NFL GM. It's not time to let these guys get away and it's not time to sit on your hands so you can overpay them in UFA and cripple your franchise. IT's time to lock our guys up and grow together as a team. It's time to shed that youngest team in the league title. Now is the time for Ted Thompson to win.
I agree that GM's get paid to have foresight and TT knows his guys. It's as much about the draft and which first and second year guys do or don't step up as it is about the guys whose contracts are coming up. Their value to the team is as dependant on who might be ready to step in as it is on their respective skills.

For instance, Jolly is a lot more valuable to the team right now than he hopefully will be in six to nine months after a rookie or two come in and show equal or greater promise, or Malone continues to develop. Neither of those things are knowable right now, and Jolly's negotiation position won't change one iota between now and the beginning of the season.

GMs get paid to have foresight. They also get paid to be right when they are negotiating big second and third contracts for players entering and/or exiting their prime years. They need to know what their options are.

Ted is not a GM who is motivated by fear or desparation, and rushing these contracts would tend to favor the player at this point. He also isn't afraid to pay players what he thinks they're worth, regardless of how early or late in the game it is.

Barring injury, which would pose a red flag to renegotiating anyway, none of these players agents opinion of their worth is going to change between now and early in the year anyway, so nothing changes until free agency hits. Many of these guys - Jennings, Colledge and Spitz included - will be RFA's if the cap is not instituted in 2010, so that takes any leverage the threat of free agency might pose anyway.

The combination of upcoming draft, followed by negotiations with a likely 9 picks, ongoing evaluations and roster decisions as we enter training camp, and the shear number and importance of the existing player contracts all indicate that it will take some time to execute these negotiations and re-up or not.

Ted Thompson is nothing if not thorough, methodical and true to his principles and processes. None of this would be evidence that Ted has his thumb up his ass, IMO, if many of these guys are not re-upped before the start of camp.

[RashanGary]

Winning a SB involves talent, coaching, health and a few things aligning the right way.

Thompson can control the talent and coaching. In a round about way, they can control health with a good offseason and training program.



Talent, IMO, is the biggest factor in great teams. However, each team is given the same amount of money to work with so how money is spent indirectly, but profoundly, effects how much talent a team has.


If we can accept that talent plays a big role in winning championships and how money is spent effects how much talent can be afforded, then we agree than finding ways to lock up players to good, fair (but not overpriced) contracts is critical in building a championship team. Look at recent SB winners. They all have good, healthy contracts with several players over performing.

UFA, by nature, drives prices through the roof. Everyone is bidding. Agents use fear (the same type that has people panicking here) to drive prices up even further with harmful bidding wars. Avoiding UFA is key in not crippling your franchise with bad contracts.

Letting your own good players get to UFA will, undoubtedly, lead to prices being driven through the roof. Having the foresight to recognize a quality, core player before he's completely estabished and proven, and then locking him up early to a good (but not overpriced) contract will, undoubtedly, lead to you having more talent, paying less and being able to continue to afford even more on your way to a SB championship.



Ted Thompson has several good, young draft picks and other players coming up. Jennings is a star. Kampman is a star. There are a bunch of good, solid players as well. Good solid players in UFA get a lot of money. Stars get a ton of money. You were an advocate of paying Ryan Grant 3 years before he had any leverage but now you don't want to pay these guys 12 mos before they have all of the leverage. Excuse me while I think that sounds insane.

Ted Thompson has a good situation set up. He's been patient in getting it to the point it is, but making it better is going to take more than waiting till the last minute. Sometimes not getting something done is the right thing when it's way too much money, but when you can do something to help the team today when waiting will hurt the team, it's not time to sit with your thumb in your ass. This is time for Ted to act. I will not be a big supporter if he lets all of these players get to UFA. I will esspecially not be a fan if he lets them go, they perform well else where and we have 22 year old junk replacing them. This pattern of forever young is not what I support. The way the team was built, it's been the right thing and understandable but that is no longer the case. He better act or this team will not be on track for a SB. It's time for time for this team to grow together. He doesn't have to keep them all, but in hidsight, he better make the right decisions at the right time or someone who did will end up winning and he'll be a loser looking for a new job.

[bobblehead]

realistically, what are we looking at to resign jennings

something like 9-10 million a year? 20 million bonus money?

last year lee evan signed a 4 year 37 million dollar deal with 18 million in guaranteed money. that made him the 3rd highest paid wr at the time

IMO

jennings > evens. with more potential

would TT even keep him if he costs that much? honestly, if we sign all our own free agents to market value then we'll be right back up against the cap and maybe back in cap hell. if we can even sign them all

right back where we started

Evans was overpaid a bit, but if you look at his career vs. Jennings career objectively they would be similar, but Evans hasn't had a decent QB yet.

[bobblehead]

realistically, what are we looking at to resign jennings

something like 9-10 million a year? 20 million bonus money?

last year lee evan signed a 4 year 37 million dollar deal with 18 million in guaranteed money. that made him the 3rd highest paid wr at the time

IMO

jennings > evens. with more potential

would TT even keep him if he costs that much? honestly, if we sign all our own free agents to market value then we'll be right back up against the cap and maybe back in cap hell. if we can even sign them all

right back where we started

I kind of doubt that TT will spend that to keep Jennings.

I have always felt that the top WRs are among the most overpaid positions in football. I know many will disagree with me, but I have a hard time understanding why a guy who touches the ball just 7 or 8 times a game is worth that kind of money, when if you don't have him someone else will get many of those receptions anyway. I also think you can be effective with a much less expensive, second level talent at WR. Your passing game may change, but can still be productive.



When I saw that Evens deal I was sick; Jennings is far better. If you believe TT takes care of his own, you'd believe TT will make the highest priority to sign Jennings. He can frontload a bunch into next year if he chooses.

Then again if TT drafts Crabtree............

You're being a homer. Jennings is good, but has exactly one thousand yard season to his credit.

[bobblehead]

I think it would be a good idea to pay Colledge (as a Guard) now, so when he moves out to Tackle full time he'll be a comparative bargain. If you wait to pay him after he's installed at T, he's going to cost a lot more.

That's true. Waiting till guys become proven to everyone is the absolute worst time to pay them (esspecially when proven and UFA come at the same time). Look at NIck Collins he and his agent think they are all proven. Now it's a nightmare. You have to have foresight to avoid things like that. Look at that fat deal he gave Kampman just before he broke out and made the deal look tiny. That is what a GM is paid to do. He's paid to pay a guy before he breaks out and reap the benefits of the good contract.

We might not have enough info, but Ted should. He gets paid to project college talent. He should be a fucking ace at projecting the guys he's watched every day at practice and in every NFL game for 3 years. There is no way he should wait until the middle or end of next season. That is asking for disaster and proves he's a coward that should not be an NFL GM. It's not time to let these guys get away and it's not time to sit on your hands so you can overpay them in UFA and cripple your franchise. IT's time to lock our guys up and grow together as a team. It's time to shed that youngest team in the league title. Now is the time for Ted Thompson to win.

Did you feel this way when Sherman gave Hunt the big bucks and let Holliday walk??

[bobblehead]

i'm with you on colledge

is there anyway you can find out howmany times he was flagged last year? it seemed to be quite a bit

Six in total, four false starts, 2 holds.
well, i guess that isn't a lot

You sure on the two holds? I see a couple places that say he had two holds, but the Green Bay Press Gazette said he had 6 penalties, but only one hold, one ineligible man downfield (which was a bogus call). I think other places just lumped those together.

One hold on the year is pretty good - except that he was charged with allowing 6 sacks! I'd rather a couple more hold, and a couple less sacks, all things considered.

well, if it was one hold, then it was zero holds as that one was a phantom call in the second minnesota game where he executed a perfect engage and cut block. Even Troy Aikman said it was a horrible call.

[Fritz]

Patler, the thing about paying a wide receiver big bucks can be tied to the word "playmaker." Lots of guys seem to be able to catch the ball, but Jennings can catch the ball on a slant and turn it into a touchdown - seemingly much more often than guys like, say, Ruvell Martin Every time Jennings touches the ball, it seems possible that a TD could be the result, whereas other receivers have yet to show that kind of touchdown-making ability, except maybe DD.

[Patler]

Patler, the thing about paying a wide receiver big bucks can be tied to the word "playmaker." Lots of guys seem to be able to catch the ball, but Jennings can catch the ball on a slant and turn it into a touchdown - seemingly much more often than guys like, say, Ruvell Martin Every time Jennings touches the ball, it seems possible that a TD could be the result, whereas other receivers have yet to show that kind of touchdown-making ability, except maybe DD.

I understand the difference, I just don't think it is worth the big money these guys are paid. That's why I said the offense may have to be different without them, but it can still function well. It's just more exciting for the fans with a receiver like that on the team.

[Waldo]

Patler, the thing about paying a wide receiver big bucks can be tied to the word "playmaker." Lots of guys seem to be able to catch the ball, but Jennings can catch the ball on a slant and turn it into a touchdown - seemingly much more often than guys like, say, Ruvell Martin Every time Jennings touches the ball, it seems possible that a TD could be the result, whereas other receivers have yet to show that kind of touchdown-making ability, except maybe DD.

I understand the difference, I just don't think it is worth the big money these guys are paid. That's why I said the offense may have to be different without them, but it can still function well. It's just more exciting for the fans with a receiver like that on the team.

Only star QB's and star RB's are better for selling jerseys and filling stands.

[Patler]

Patler, the thing about paying a wide receiver big bucks can be tied to the word "playmaker." Lots of guys seem to be able to catch the ball, but Jennings can catch the ball on a slant and turn it into a touchdown - seemingly much more often than guys like, say, Ruvell Martin Every time Jennings touches the ball, it seems possible that a TD could be the result, whereas other receivers have yet to show that kind of touchdown-making ability, except maybe DD.

I understand the difference, I just don't think it is worth the big money these guys are paid. That's why I said the offense may have to be different without them, but it can still function well. It's just more exciting for the fans with a receiver like that on the team.

Only star QB's and star RB's are better for selling jerseys and filling stands.

What? :shock:
You don't think fans are attracted to the play of the guards? :lol: :lol:

[vince]

Winning a SB involves talent, coaching, health and a few things aligning the right way.

Thompson can control the talent and coaching. In a round about way, they can control health with a good offseason and training program.



Talent, IMO, is the biggest factor in great teams. However, each team is given the same amount of money to work with so how money is spent indirectly, but profoundly, effects how much talent a team has.


If we can accept that talent plays a big role in winning championships and how money is spent effects how much talent can be afforded, then we agree than finding ways to lock up players to good, fair (but not overpriced) contracts is critical in building a championship team. Look at recent SB winners. They all have good, healthy contracts with several players over performing.

UFA, by nature, drives prices through the roof. Everyone is bidding. Agents use fear (the same type that has people panicking here) to drive prices up even further with harmful bidding wars. Avoiding UFA is key in not crippling your franchise with bad contracts.

Letting your own good players get to UFA will, undoubtedly, lead to prices being driven through the roof. Having the foresight to recognize a quality, core player before he's completely estabished and proven, and then locking him up early to a good (but not overpriced) contract will, undoubtedly, lead to you having more talent, paying less and being able to continue to afford even more on your way to a SB championship.



Ted Thompson has several good, young draft picks and other players coming up. Jennings is a star. Kampman is a star. There are a bunch of good, solid players as well. Good solid players in UFA get a lot of money. Stars get a ton of money. You were an advocate of paying Ryan Grant 3 years before he had any leverage but now you don't want to pay these guys 12 mos before they have all of the leverage. Excuse me while I think that sounds insane.

Ted Thompson has a good situation set up. He's been patient in getting it to the point it is, but making it better is going to take more than waiting till the last minute. Sometimes not getting something done is the right thing when it's way too much money, but when you can do something to help the team today when waiting will hurt the team, it's not time to sit with your thumb in your ass. This is time for Ted to act. I will not be a big supporter if he lets all of these players get to UFA. I will esspecially not be a fan if he lets them go, they perform well else where and we have 22 year old junk replacing them. This pattern of forever young is not what I support. The way the team was built, it's been the right thing and understandable but that is no longer the case. He better act or this team will not be on track for a SB. It's time for time for this team to grow together. He doesn't have to keep them all, but in hidsight, he better make the right decisions at the right time or someone who did will end up winning and he'll be a loser looking for a new job.
Glad you're back in action JH. I agree with what you've posted, except with what you're suggesting I'm saying, and with your assertion that the team has its greatest negotiating leverage right now.

I'm not advocating for waiting until the last minute or until (some of) these guys become free agents, as you're suggesting I am. I too hope a number of these guys can be re-upped (including those you suggested, except possibly Jolly) to the best possible contracts for the team. I agree that Thompson should negotiate when he has the greatest advantage. While that isn't at the very end of their contract term, that isn't right now either.

Thompson should wait until at least after the draft to be able to project with any level of accuracy whatsoever what the overall makeup of the team will be moving forward. Once the draft is over, there is a big spike in information available to him where it will enable the team to negotiate from a position of far greater strength then it has now.

If he lands B.J. Raji for example, that could change the complexion of the Pickett negotiations, don't you agree? I already mentioned Jolly's current negotiating leverage. Moll is another one. The same can be said for most of these guys, with the probable exception of Jennings.

It would be foolish to be in a rush to re-sign a bunch of guys to sizable contracts when there may well be cheaper and perhaps even more talented options ready to step in somewhere that could alter the roles - and reduce the value - of the guys in question.

Given the complexities of optimizing the value and talent of an NFL franchise, completing the process for many of these guys may take a bit into training camp. And given that there are a high number of guys with contracts coming due, and given that they are likely going to have differing opinions of their worth than the team does, the process may well go into the season for many of them - but hopefully not until the next free agency period - at least for the guys Thompson truly feels the need to keep. Many of these guys may well maintain an elevated view of their worth, and even though Thompson would like to sign them, he may have to refuse to overpay. Based on what you're saying here, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't advocate Ted giving in to players overinflated demands just to sign them early. That's the opposite of what I understand you to be saying here.

With the draft, then draftpick signings, then training camp and roster analysis and decisions, and the negotiating positioning on the part of player agents, it's going to take some time to work through all these negotiations JH. The sooner the better for Jennings, Colledge and Spitz as far as I'm concerned because I think their general roles are determined with relative certainty, but they may be overvaluing themselves right now relative to the team's needs.

I agree that Ted should be workign on these deals (which he is from what I've read) while also preparing for the draft and getting the draftpicks signed so they can get into camp, and while he's evaluating throughout training camp (which I'm sure he will be), but give Ted the time it will take to reach agreement with these guys to optimize the team's talent level per dollar of investment as you're rightfully (IMO) suggesting he should.

And about Grant, I did think the team had more leverage with him than they exercized, but I think the Favre fiasco played a part in that, and they did end up with a performance and incentive laden deal that will ultimately pay him what he's worth - with a little more up front than I'd hoped for. I suspect many of these guys will also end up with performance-based deals, but I suspect they're a bit tougher to come up with mutually agreeable benchmarks for offensive linemen than running backs.

[Patler]

Patler, the thing about paying a wide receiver big bucks can be tied to the word "playmaker." Lots of guys seem to be able to catch the ball, but Jennings can catch the ball on a slant and turn it into a touchdown - seemingly much more often than guys like, say, Ruvell Martin Every time Jennings touches the ball, it seems possible that a TD could be the result, whereas other receivers have yet to show that kind of touchdown-making ability, except maybe DD.

I understand the difference, I just don't think it is worth the big money these guys are paid. That's why I said the offense may have to be different without them, but it can still function well. It's just more exciting for the fans with a receiver like that on the team.

Only star QB's and star RB's are better for selling jerseys and filling stands.

What? :shock:
You don't think fans are attracted to the play of the guards? :lol: :lol:

All kidding aside Waldo, that is true, but there seems to be more reluctance to lavishing money on RBs than there was in the past. It used to be that only LTs of the O-line were paid real high. Now, select players anywhere along the O-line can be paid quite well. I think the money should come from the overpaid WRs.

[Waldo]

There is something to be said though for a WR that forces the S to nervously cheat to his side a bit and forces the playcaller to avoid excessively loading the box with defenders, that can still be productive in the face of the best the defense can throw at him.

Even though they may only catch a handful of balls a game, their impact on every play is only second to the QB in the way the defense aligns itself to defend against the offense. Only with a stud back and inept QB will a defense be concerned with a back more than a stud WR.

[RashanGary]

We're near the same page, Vince.

That is also a good point, to wait until after the draft. I think some time in TC, before the season starts is ideal. After the season starts, a player (and agent) will want to jsut wait and get full value on the open market. That point is getting close.


The Steelers let Burris go. They let Randel-el go. They kept Ward. It's OK to lose good players. I am OK with that. I'm more OK with letting a good one go than overpaying, in fact. With that said, Thompson is paid to know which are good and which are needed. I agree there is a balance, but of the ones he chooses to work out, they all better be done or damn near done before the season (unless they are demanding too much, but I doubt very many of our guys coming up have that type of entitlement just yet). Collins could be difficult. Outside of that, I would expect most of the contracts to be doable and I'd expect Thompson to have a damn good idea before the season starts which ones he wants to keep.