Packers watching orakpo closely

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Orakpo Impresses At Texas Pro Day
Posted by Aaron Wilson on March 25, 2009, 7:07 p.m.

Versatile outside linebacker/defensive end Brian Orakpo headlined the University of Texas’ widely attended Pro Day with a strong workout, according to Gil Brandt of NFL.com.

Regarded as a potential target for the Cleveland Browns with the fifth overall pick, Orakpo drew particularly close interest from Green Bay Packers General Manager Ted Thompson and Miami Dolphins defensive coordinator Paul Pasqualoni.

At 6′3″, 262 pounds and with excellent mobility, Orakpo is considered perhaps the top pass rushing talent available in the draft. The Packers are converting to a 3-4 primary defense under the direction of new defensive coordinator Dom Capers, and the Dolphins also run a 3-4 alignment.

At the Longhorns’ campus workout, Orakpo registered a 10′10″ broad jump, a 4.45 in the short shuttle and a 7.26 in the three-cone drill.

“Thompson would never tip his hand, but I think that Green Bay would probably be interested in someone like him for their new scheme,” Brandt wrote. “I know Thompson was impressed with Orakpo and expressed surprise at how big his upper body is.

“Of course, the Dolphins use a 3-4 as well and Pasqualoni seemed to like Orakpo too. I think the consensus on Orakpo is very positive. The one question mark on him is that he’s one of those guys that appears to play hard 90 percent of the time, but takes a vacation the other 10 percent.”

At the NFL Scouting Combine, Orakpo ran the 40-yard dash in 4.63 seconds, bench pressed 225 pounds 31 times and posted an eye-catching 39.5-inch vertical leap.

Meanwhile, running back Chris Ogbonnaya bench pressed 225 pounds 28 times and had a 34.5-inch vertical leap.

Wide receiver Quan Cosby reportedly caught the ball very well from CFL quarterback Drew Tait at the workout.

Offensive tackle Cedric Dockery, the younger brother of Redskins offensive guard Derrick Dockery, pulled his hamstring while running a 5.4 in the 40-yard dash.

Defensive tackle Roy Miller registered an impressive 4.93 in the 40-yard dash at 6-1, 312 pounds.

Plus, defensive end Henry Melton posted a swift 4.64 in the 40-yard dash. He turned in a 10′1″ broad jump and a 34.5-inch vertical leap.

[Dylan McKay]

Write it down, Henry Melton, round 5

[digitaldean]

Write it down, Henry Melton, round 5

Stats on Melton....
Name: Henry Melton
College: Texas Number: 37
Height: 6-4 Weight: 269
Position: DE Pos2: FB/LB
Class/Draft Year: Sr/2009
40 Time: 4.65 40 Low: 4.59 40 High: 4.76

Rated number 28 out of 202 DE's
All Big 12 Honorable Mention.

Was a RB briefly (scored 10 TB as freshman).

[digitaldean]

Honestly, I think Cleve. will have Orakpo before we get a shot at him.

[wist43]

I doubt TT is interested in Orakpo... not his type of pick. I'm expecting TT to do his best to trade down.

[Joemailman]

If Cleveland takes Orakpo, we get Malcolm Jenkins. If they take Jenkins, we'll get Orakpo.

[The Leaper]

I doubt TT is interested in Orakpo... not his type of pick. I'm expecting TT to do his best to trade down.

He's a physical specimen...much like Harrell or Collins, both defenders that Thompson has taken high. How can you say it isn't his type of pick? Hawk was also a pretty solid physical specimen, although certainly not freakish.

[Lurker64]

I'm really thinking that if Thompson decides to go defense in the first (probable if there's not a T there he loves), he'll take either Orakpo or Maybin if he wants an OLB; otherwise Raji or Hood if he wants someone on the DL.

All four of those are picks I'm reasonably comfortable with. I don't see Jenkins as a probable pick.

[Waldo]

I'm really thinking that if Thompson decides to go defense in the first (probable if there's not a T there he loves), he'll take either Orakpo or Maybin if he wants an OLB; otherwise Raji or Hood if he wants someone on the DL.

All four of those are picks I'm reasonably comfortable with. I don't see Jenkins as a probable pick.

I agree. Jenkins is very much not a TT type pick. Orakpo is though. TT's high D picks have all been physical specimens.

Hawk ran one of the fastest SS's a LB has ever recorded (very important test for a LB), the fastest at the combine of all positions that year, and jumped 40". Those are pretty freakish #'s. Hawk ran faster than Malcom did on OSU's track.

[packers11]

pft.com


Dissenting Opinions Emerge On Orakpo Workout
Posted by Mike Florio on March 25, 2009, 10:59 p.m.

Earlier in the day, NFL.com’s Gil Brandt offered up a glowing review of Brian Orakpo’s Pro Day workout.

But not everyone feels that way.

Per one league source, some scouts viewed the linebacker/defensive end’s workout as “brutal.”


According to the source, Orakpo is regarded by some as having “great athletic abilities but bad football skills.” It’s prompting some to question whether Orakpo merits even a first-round pick.

If this sounds familiar, it should. There’s a chance that Orakpo could be the latest in a line of “looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane” players, including past first-rounders like Vernon Gholston and Mike Mamula. (Then there’s Alabama’s Andre Smith, who as one reader pointed out after Smith’s recent shirtless sprint “plays like Tarzan, looks like Jane.”)

Even Gil Brandt, who is regarded by many as having a bias in favor of Texas football, acknowledges that Orakpo is “one of those guys that appears to play hard 90 percent of the time, but takes a vacation the other 10 percent.”

It’s the kind of attitude that could put a coach or a G.M. on vacation 100 percent of the time if they pick Orakpo, and if he doesn’t deliver.

[Tarlam!]

pft.com

[quote]Dissenting Opinions Emerge On Orakpo Workout
Posted by Mike Florio on March 25, 2009, 10:59 p.m.



Ranked 7th overall on this site:

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/top64.php?draftyear=2009

Ranked 10th overall on this site:

http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=127&p=9&c=12&nid=83&lnid=124&yr=2009

[PackerPro42]

From what I've seen of Orakpo, I'd have to say that the scouting reports are right. I don't think he'll be able to transition to an OLB and as a DE he's to small for a 3-4. He also doesn't have a wide array of moves as a 4-3 DE that would warrant his "pass rush specialist" title that so many people give him. In his bowl game he was virtually a non-issue, however he did pick up one meaningless sack at the end of the game.

If TT is going to pursue a DE/OLB prospect I sure hope it's Brown. From what I've seen of him, he has the better first step and a better variety of moves. If anyone should garner the "pass rush specialist" title it should be this guy. I believe he'd play a vital roll as the Packer's rush OLB and he'd play a similar roll that Suggs plays. IMO he's a better football player than Orakpo and a more intriguing prospect for TT to go after with the #9 pick.

[wist43]

Have Brown crossed off my list... and not just b/c he's from Florida State.

He's smaller than listed, and doesn't seem to be able to get the edge consistently... I'll look at him some more as we get closer to the draft, but at this point I certainly don't want him at #9.

[PackerPro42]

I'm not saying that I'd like TT to draft him, but I think he's a better football prospect than Orakpo. I'd don't really like either of them as a #9 pick and you can definitely scratch Maybin off my list.

[DonHutson]

I doubt TT is interested in Orakpo... not his type of pick. I'm expecting TT to do his best to trade down.

He's a physical specimen...much like Harrell or Collins, both defenders that Thompson has taken high. How can you say it isn't his type of pick? Hawk was also a pretty solid physical specimen, although certainly not freakish.

I agree with Leaper. Orakpo is known as a leader and a high character guy. He's been highly productive against elite competition. He seems relatively safe in that he might not have the ceiling that other guys have, but he probably won't be a total bust either.

You could have said all that about Rodgers, Hawk, and Nelson when they came out, so I would tend to think those are the characteristics Ted looks for in that first pick in addition to the physical traits.

I siad it awhile back, and I still think Orakpo is probably the MOST Ted like pick out of the guys that might be there.

[3irty1]

Orakpo as a OLB strikes me as a Shawne Merriman type, kind of a DE that is slightly miscast as an OLB and shouldn't do much more than pass rush. Great player but not a compliment to Kampman.

Brown could be a good player. He does seem to have the most pass rush moves and looks good as a linebackers but doesn't seem to have NFL explosion as a pass rusher. If he succeeds it will be because he's a good technician. Biggest risk of the top three.

I like Maybin the best. He seems like he could do anything and he's a physical specimen and a fluid athlete. He wasn't quite the pass rusher that the others were in college but he'll have time to develop playing opposite of Kampman.

[The Shadow]

Orakpo as a OLB strikes me as a Shawne Merriman type, kind of a DE that is slightly miscast as an OLB and shouldn't do much more than pass rush. Great player but not a compliment to Kampman.

Brown could be a good player. He does seem to have the most pass rush moves and looks good as a linebackers but doesn't seem to have NFL explosion as a pass rusher. If he succeeds it will be because he's a good technician. Biggest risk of the top three.

I like Maybin the best. He seems like he could do anything and he's a physical specimen and a fluid athlete. He wasn't quite the pass rusher that the others were in college but he'll have time to develop playing opposite of Kampman.

Those words often make me nervous. Vernon Davis and Mike Mamula come to mind.

[3irty1]

Orakpo as a OLB strikes me as a Shawne Merriman type, kind of a DE that is slightly miscast as an OLB and shouldn't do much more than pass rush. Great player but not a compliment to Kampman.

Brown could be a good player. He does seem to have the most pass rush moves and looks good as a linebackers but doesn't seem to have NFL explosion as a pass rusher. If he succeeds it will be because he's a good technician. Biggest risk of the top three.

I like Maybin the best. He seems like he could do anything and he's a physical specimen and a fluid athlete. He wasn't quite the pass rusher that the others were in college but he'll have time to develop playing opposite of Kampman.

Those words often make me nervous. Vernon Davis and Mike Mamula come to mind.

I think that's Michael Johnson in the draft. There's nothing wrong with being a monster if you're also a hard worker and a great character.

[wist43]

Hawk may have had good testing numbers, but if you watched him in college... he looked to me then like he does now, i.e. a decent player, a steady player, but certainly not a difference maker. That is TT's kind of guy... a steady, unspectacular performer. I didn't want Hawk at #5... I signed off on the pick eventually, but only b/c I figured he wouldn't be a bust... which he hasn't been, but then again, he wasn't worth the 5th pick either.

Orakpo is an explosive athelete, has some injury history, and while productive in college, I don't think you can say he is destined for the College Football HOF. Hence, he comes with some risk, but his upside could be huge... definitely not a TT type of pick.

As I said, I fully expect TT to be looking to trade down... if he does stay at 9, OT or maybe WR. BPA is TT's MO... regardless of position, and regardless of need... so the odds are, we're not going to get any help for our defensive front seven from that #9 pick.

[Gunakor]

Orakpo is an explosive athelete, has some injury history, and while productive in college, I don't think you can say he is destined for the College Football HOF. Hence, he comes with some risk, but his upside could be huge... definitely not a TT type of pick.

I think you just accurately described Justin Harrell...

Explosive athelete, productive in college, injury history, comes with risk, upside could be huge. That's Justin Harrell, no?

How is this not a TT type pick again?

[rbaloha1]

Orakpo scares me as a physical specimen that does not live up to the hype.

Tyson Jackson, LSU may be a better pick and an instant starter at de.

[3irty1]

Hawk may have had good testing numbers, but if you watched him in college... he looked to me then like he does now, i.e. a decent player, a steady player, but certainly not a difference maker. That is TT's kind of guy... a steady, unspectacular performer. I didn't want Hawk at #5... I signed off on the pick eventually, but only b/c I figured he wouldn't be a bust... which he hasn't been, but then again, he wasn't worth the 5th pick either.

Orakpo is an explosive athelete, has some injury history, and while productive in college, I don't think you can say he is destined for the College Football HOF. Hence, he comes with some risk, but his upside could be huge... definitely not a TT type of pick.

As I said, I fully expect TT to be looking to trade down... if he does stay at 9, OT or maybe WR. BPA is TT's MO... regardless of position, and regardless of need... so the odds are, we're not going to get any help for our defensive front seven from that #9 pick.

This just isn't based in reality. Was Harrell a steady performer that was picked despite his lack of upside? Nick Collins? Colledge?

[Lurker64]

Tyson Jackson, LSU may be a better pick and an instant starter at de.

3-4 DE is not a premium position, worthy of a top 10 pick. 3-4 WOLB is *the* star big money position in that defense, and it's also a position we have a gaping hole in. Unless some tremendous value slips, we should be looking for a WOLB in that spot.

If Thompson wanted to take a DL with his #1 (and Raji is gone), Ziggy Hood is probably the right pick since he can the NT/DE swing position. Tyson is purely a DE in the 3-4 and isn't really any better suited to it than a guy like Jarron Gilbert, who may well be there for us in the 2nd.

You don't spend top 10 picks on pure 3-4 DEs for similar reasons that you don't spend top 10 positions on Punters. You can get considerable value at the position later, for cheaper, and it's not really that much of an impact position. Tyson Jackson's a good player, but Richard Seymour he ain't, and Seymour's impact is significantly greater since he plays in a 2-gap 3-4 than a guy playing in a 1-gap 3-4 (like Capers is installing).

[wist43]

Hawk may have had good testing numbers, but if you watched him in college... he looked to me then like he does now, i.e. a decent player, a steady player, but certainly not a difference maker. That is TT's kind of guy... a steady, unspectacular performer. I didn't want Hawk at #5... I signed off on the pick eventually, but only b/c I figured he wouldn't be a bust... which he hasn't been, but then again, he wasn't worth the 5th pick either.

Orakpo is an explosive athelete, has some injury history, and while productive in college, I don't think you can say he is destined for the College Football HOF. Hence, he comes with some risk, but his upside could be huge... definitely not a TT type of pick.

As I said, I fully expect TT to be looking to trade down... if he does stay at 9, OT or maybe WR. BPA is TT's MO... regardless of position, and regardless of need... so the odds are, we're not going to get any help for our defensive front seven from that #9 pick.

This just isn't based in reality. Was Harrell a steady performer that was picked despite his lack of upside? Nick Collins? Colledge?

Harrell was just a mornic pick all the way around...

[HarveyWallbangers]

Harrell was just a mornic pick all the way around...

Considering his injury history, maybe, but I wouldn't say all the way around. Dude has talent (physical specimen). Let's not forget that he was a high character, team leader at Tennessee. They even gave him Reggie White's number, and I'm not sure they've done that for anybody else. The combination of his physical ability + his leadership at Tennessee, and I just couldn't get too down on the pick at the time.

[Gunakor]

Hawk may have had good testing numbers, but if you watched him in college... he looked to me then like he does now, i.e. a decent player, a steady player, but certainly not a difference maker. That is TT's kind of guy... a steady, unspectacular performer. I didn't want Hawk at #5... I signed off on the pick eventually, but only b/c I figured he wouldn't be a bust... which he hasn't been, but then again, he wasn't worth the 5th pick either.

Orakpo is an explosive athelete, has some injury history, and while productive in college, I don't think you can say he is destined for the College Football HOF. Hence, he comes with some risk, but his upside could be huge... definitely not a TT type of pick.

As I said, I fully expect TT to be looking to trade down... if he does stay at 9, OT or maybe WR. BPA is TT's MO... regardless of position, and regardless of need... so the odds are, we're not going to get any help for our defensive front seven from that #9 pick.

This just isn't based in reality. Was Harrell a steady performer that was picked despite his lack of upside? Nick Collins? Colledge?

Harrell was just a mornic pick all the way around...

So moronic, in fact, that there was a team right behind us licking their chops at the opportunity to draft this guy if we didn't....

While it hasn't worked out, there were many people and many teams involved in that draft that thought Harrell was gonna be a pretty good football player at the NFL level. And you know what? He still might be. It's only been 2 years.

You'd hope to get more out of a first round pick in 2 years time, but if he can get healthy and get back to the form he played at Tennessee in the near future I'll be happy. He was a phenomenal defensive lineman, and we could really use more of those on our football team right now.

[gbpackfan]

Hawk may have had good testing numbers, but if you watched him in college... he looked to me then like he does now, i.e. a decent player, a steady player, but certainly not a difference maker. That is TT's kind of guy... a steady, unspectacular performer. I didn't want Hawk at #5... I signed off on the pick eventually, but only b/c I figured he wouldn't be a bust... which he hasn't been, but then again, he wasn't worth the 5th pick either.

Orakpo is an explosive athelete, has some injury history, and while productive in college, I don't think you can say he is destined for the College Football HOF. Hence, he comes with some risk, but his upside could be huge... definitely not a TT type of pick.

As I said, I fully expect TT to be looking to trade down... if he does stay at 9, OT or maybe WR. BPA is TT's MO... regardless of position, and regardless of need... so the odds are, we're not going to get any help for our defensive front seven from that #9 pick.

This just isn't based in reality. Was Harrell a steady performer that was picked despite his lack of upside? Nick Collins? Colledge?

Harrell was just a mornic pick all the way around...

Sorry, I have to agree with Wist here. Passing on Greg Olson for this turd was a terrible decision. Harrell is a bust. For those of you thinking "this is his year," you need a reality check. But don't worry, you'll get just that in August when he gets injured in training camp.

[Gunakor]

Sorry, I have to agree with Wist here. Passing on Greg Olson for this turd was a terrible decision. Harrell is a bust. For those of you thinking "this is his year" need a reality check. But don't worry, you'll get just that in August when he gets injured in training camp.

See my post above. There were a handful of other teams ready to draft him in the first round if we passed him up. He was a first round prospect. He may turn out to be a bust, but it wasn't like he was drafted unexpectedly in the first round. That's where he was projected to go, and that's where he went. Anyone else not surprised that happened?

[Bretsky]

Sorry, I have to agree with Wist here. Passing on Greg Olson for this turd was a terrible decision. Harrell is a bust. For those of you thinking "this is his year" need a reality check. But don't worry, you'll get just that in August when he gets injured in training camp.

See my post above. There were a handful of other teams ready to draft him in the first round if we passed him up. He was a first round prospect. He may turn out to be a bust, but it wasn't like he was drafted unexpectedly in the first round. That's where he was projected to go, and that's where he went. Anyone else not surprised that happened?

I never heard about a handful of teams. I just heard the Broncos had their eye on three DL they really wanted and traded up to get the 3rd of 3. And two of the three up to this point have been junk.

In reality the Jags were the smart team to steal and extra pick and nab the guy Leaper wanted form the start

[Gunakor]

Sorry, I have to agree with Wist here. Passing on Greg Olson for this turd was a terrible decision. Harrell is a bust. For those of you thinking "this is his year" need a reality check. But don't worry, you'll get just that in August when he gets injured in training camp.

See my post above. There were a handful of other teams ready to draft him in the first round if we passed him up. He was a first round prospect. He may turn out to be a bust, but it wasn't like he was drafted unexpectedly in the first round. That's where he was projected to go, and that's where he went. Anyone else not surprised that happened?

I never heard about a handful of teams. I just heard the Broncos had their eye on three DL they really wanted and traded up to get the 3rd of 3. And two of the three up to this point have been junk.

In reality the Jags were the smart team to steal and extra pick and nab the guy Leaper wanted form the start

You miss the point. Calling him a bust is one thing. Calling him a moronic pick is completely another. Bust means he was a first round projection that didn't turn out, and if anything, that's the fitting description. Moronic pick implies that he was picked out of position. That it was an incredible reach to select him where we did. That wasn't the case. He may end up being a bust, but it wasn't a moronic pick.

[Lurker64]

Why is it that Packer fans are still bent out of shape about the Harrell pick, while Vikings fans aren't bent out of shape on missing on both Troy Williamson and Erasmus James, Bears fans aren't bent out of shape on missing on Cedric Benson, and Lions fans aren't bent out of shape about missing on... well... it's the Lions.

I mean, unlike Williamson, James, and Benson, Harrell is still in the league and with the team that drafted him. He was also a lower pick than Williamson (#7) and Benson (#4).

Sometimes you miss on draft picks, it happens. You shrug your shoulders and move on. It's not as though Harrell couldn't make an impact this year, and it's not as though he didn't make an impact when he was on the field.

Bad pick? Possibly. Moronic pick? Absolutely not, he was drafted to fill the hole that would be created by the departure of Corey Williams, and he was drafted about where he was graded.

[Fritz]

If he doesn't play this year, or plays a bit and gets hurt, you could then say he was a bust - if the injury is the one he had in college.

And you could say he was a bust in hindsight.

So okay, all you smarty pants out there who think it was "moronic." Go ahead. Pick a guy who'll be chosen in, say, the top 20, whom you are sure will be a "moronic" pick.

Surely if TT was making a pick worthy of a moron, it will be easy for you to spot the moronic pick before the season begins, instead of two years later.

Go.

[The Leaper]

In reality the Jags were the smart team to steal and extra pick and nab the guy Leaper wanted form the start

Too early to call Harrell a bust...the guy hasn't been on the field enough to make a fair assessment. I'm willing to give him one more year.

But I'm still missing me some Reggie Nelson.

[Bretsky]

Why is it that Packer fans are still bent out of shape about the Harrell pick, while Vikings fans aren't bent out of shape on missing on both Troy Williamson and Erasmus James, Bears fans aren't bent out of shape on missing on Cedric Benson, and Lions fans aren't bent out of shape about missing on... well... it's the Lions.

I mean, unlike Williamson, James, and Benson, Harrell is still in the league and with the team that drafted him. He was also a lower pick than Williamson (#7) and Benson (#4).

Sometimes you miss on draft picks, it happens. You shrug your shoulders and move on. It's not as though Harrell couldn't make an impact this year, and it's not as though he didn't make an impact when he was on the field.

Bad pick? Possibly. Moronic pick? Absolutely not, he was drafted to fill the hole that would be created by the departure of Corey Williams, and he was drafted about where he was graded.


He was drafted the year before Corey Williams left

If you are arguing that TT drafted him knowing he was going to let Williams leave....some might agree with that

[Tarlam!]

He was drafted the year before Corey Williams left.

Well, I remember vividly the boobirds at Curlies Pub when the pick was anounced.

I remember thinking to myself at the time, if I am Harrell, I only show up in my contract year and until that day, I will hybernate.

Then, I hit UFA one day regardless of what GB offer, collect my payday elsewhere and become all pro.

Then, when I am interviewed, I remind the GBP fans of the boos, and I smile sweatly....

So far, my vision seems to be on track.

[Lurker64]

If you are arguing that TT drafted him knowing he was going to let Williams leave....some might agree with that

That is precisely what I am saying, yes. Thompson correctly predicted that the salary Williams would command on the open market would far outstrip what he's worth (just look at that contract Cleveland gave him!) and that the only way to keep him around would be to tag him (also more than he's worth), and thus anticipated losing him and drafted accordingly.

This is particularly a good idea, because vanishingly few college DTs are successful in their rookie year. It's just that the specific player Thompson picked hasn't worked out, to this point.

[Partial]

Value is relative. If we had a great back-up in place, is CWill worth big bucks? No. But at some point you need to field a competitive team.

[Lurker64]

Value is relative. If we had a great back-up in place, is CWill worth big bucks? No. But at some point you need to field a competitive team.

Williams wasn't even a starter, with the deal he got or the value of the tag, he would have been the highest paid player on the defense. That's not reasonable.

[Partial]

I don't know that I agree.

He was basically a starter. He was a starter in the same sense KGB was a starter. He was the starter and premiere player for his role, which is a very valuable role.

It just so happened that he would be more effective in his role coming off of the bench.

Clearly, when he left, the pass rush took a step down. What changed from the previous year? We had a hurt and ineffective Jenkins both years... so... Uhh... Was Kampman suddenly much worse? Maybe. But I'd say that Williams was pretty important too our team.

[Fritz]

Guess if TT makes a pick @ #9 my favorite pick would be Raji.

[Gunakor]

I don't know...

That's fairly obvious.

Williams was not a starter until mid 2007. Most of his sacks came before that time. After he was named a starter he fell back into mediocrity, where he's lived ever since. When Cleveland offered a 2nd round pick to Green Bay for the rights to pay Williams a starters salary, it didn't make sense for Green Bay to try to keep him here. The second round pick alone carried more value than did Williams, and the fact that we would not have to pay starters salary for a backup made the decision even easier.


It just so happened that he would be more effective in his role coming off of the bench.

Exactly. Which is why when he was offered starters salary we could not afford to keep him here. You don't pay that much money to a backup or situational player. I'd think we fans would have learned that when KGB was given that rediculous contract extension by Sherman. How would giving Williams a similar contract for similar production been any better than that?


Clearly, when he left, the pass rush took a step down. What changed from the previous year? We had a hurt and ineffective Jenkins both years... so... Uhh... Was Kampman suddenly much worse?

In 2007, the final year Williams was a Packer, KGB had something like 9 sacks coming off the other side. That might have had something to do with it. The pressure coming from the other side wasn't there in 2008 either, not just the pressure from up the middle.

But let me ask you this, had we resigned Williams to remain a Packer and made him a starter, do you really think he'd have made that much of a difference? I mean, how much of a difference did he make for the Browns when they made him a starter? That's what you get from him. Which is far less than you'd expect from a starter being paid a starters salary. He is what he is. Overpaid. Be happy it's someone else overpaying for him and not the Packers.

[Tarlam!]

Thanks for posting what I was thinking, Gun.

In fact, most people around here have accepted that williams was doomed as starter, that KGB was going nowhere fast and without Jenkins the DL would struggle.

It amazes me that someone who obviously understands football as well as Partial would profess that letting Williams go under the circumstances was a mistake.

[wist43]

I think the bone of contention in letting Williams go was in terms of not pursueing a preemptive signing... TT made the decision b/4 that draft, when CW still had a year on his contract, that he was going to boot CW out the door.

In the end, and even the homers can't argue against this, a productive member of the DL rototation is gone; and has been replaced by a non-productive blob... and a 1st round pick was used in the process.

You guys keep trying to defend it all... but that's the end result.

[Tarlam!]

In the end, and even the homers can't argue against this, a productive member of the DL rototation is gone

Nope. Disagree. It was known VERY early by the public that Williams was hell bent on becoming a FA. That would mean TT knew even earlier.

William's agent came out and stated TT had approached him, IIRC.

[Gunakor]

I think the bone of contention in letting Williams go was in terms of not pursueing a preemptive signing... TT made the decision b/4 that draft, when CW still had a year on his contract, that he was going to boot CW out the door.

In the end, and even the homers can't argue against this, a productive member of the DL rototation is gone; and has been replaced by a non-productive blob... and a 1st round pick was used in the process.

You guys keep trying to defend it all... but that's the end result.

You keep forgetting about cost here wist. Would you have paid Williams what it would have cost to keep him here, even knowing that his production would not warrant that cost? That's the crux of the deal here. Williams is being overpaid. He was going to be overpaid by us, or be overpaid by someone else. It turns out he's being overpaid by someone else. Isn't that a good thing?

[rbaloha1]

Corey Williams=Cleditus Hunt

[Partial]

Of course his effectiveness went down in playing more. Everyone's does. Look at KGB and how valuable he was in that pass rushing role. When he was a part time player, he was far more effective and more worth his salary.

2nd round pick carrying more value is pure opinion at this point. Did we get more value last year? No way, especially given our poor depth on the line.

Everyone is talking about 'mediocre' he is, yet these same people talk about 3-4 ends and how they are tireless workers doing the dirty work, etc.

Value is relative, as I said. I think Corey Williams would not be worth that money as an every down player. I think he'd be worth every penny if he was used only in passing situations.

Like KGB, when he was started and expected to do everything, he didn't do anything well and his value was diminished. When he was a situational rusher, he was great and his value was through the roof. Williams is a very similiar situation. We cannot all of a sudden neglect his top-tier sack production and pressure for a DT.

That said, had they opted to sign Williams early, they probably could have gotten him cheaper ala Jenkins. In retrospect, give me Williams over walking injured Jenkins any day of the week.

[Guiness]

Corey Williams=Cleditus Hunt

Dunno how you can that. CW kept playing, kept working hard, as far as anyone can tell. He just wanted to go for the max money, and was willing to risk injury while waiting for FA instead of signing early. He got his money (elsewere) and kept playing. As far as I've heard, still a pretty hard worker, etc. The Browns gave him a ridiculous contract for a 3-4 DE (He was paid like a top flight 4-3 DT) but that's not our problem.

CH took his money, sat in a stool in front of his fridge, and got up in time to waddle to TC.

[KYPack]

Corey Williams=Cleditus Hunt

Dunno how you can that. CW kept playing, kept working hard, as far as anyone can tell. He just wanted to go for the max money, and was willing to risk injury while waiting for FA instead of signing early. He got his money (elsewere) and kept playing. As far as I've heard, still a pretty hard worker, etc. The Browns gave him a ridiculous contract for a 3-4 DE (He was paid like a top flight 4-3 DT) but that's not our problem.

CH took his money, sat in a stool in front of his fridge, and got up in time to waddle to TC.

Another thing about the Williams move. Cleve took a serviceable 4-3 DT and made him a LDE in a 3-4. Talk about a fish out of water. Admittedly an end in a 3-4 doesn't do or get a lot. Williams was completely lost at the job. now we are trying to do the same move with Jolly. Makes me wonder if it will work

[Gunakor]

Of course his effectiveness went down in playing more. Everyone's does. Look at KGB and how valuable he was in that pass rushing role. When he was a part time player, he was far more effective and more worth his salary.

2nd round pick carrying more value is pure opinion at this point. Did we get more value last year? No way, especially given our poor depth on the line.

Everyone is talking about 'mediocre' he is, yet these same people talk about 3-4 ends and how they are tireless workers doing the dirty work, etc.

Value is relative, as I said. I think Corey Williams would not be worth that money as an every down player. I think he'd be worth every penny if he was used only in passing situations.

Like KGB, when he was started and expected to do everything, he didn't do anything well and his value was diminished. When he was a situational rusher, he was great and his value was through the roof. Williams is a very similiar situation. We cannot all of a sudden neglect his top-tier sack production and pressure for a DT.

That said, had they opted to sign Williams early, they probably could have gotten him cheaper ala Jenkins. In retrospect, give me Williams over walking injured Jenkins any day of the week.

Partial, Williams' production just didn't go down when named a starter. He disappeared when named a starter. Did next to nothing worthwhile as a starter. As in he wasn't a starter. Isn't a starter. Doesn't deserve a starters salary. Got one from someone else, glad he didn't get one from us.

Give me Jenkins at Jenkins salary over Williams at Williams' salary any day of the week. The Browns regret paying Williams as much as they did, and we would have if we had signed him also. Williams would not have signed for less money with us. You are assuming that without doing any research into the matter whatsoever, just like all of your assumptions. Had we offered him a backups salary he'd have just went to FA where he could get starters money. We tagged him so we could trade him and get something in return.

At no point were we willing to pay him the money he was asking for, because at no point in his career was he worth that salary. Kudos TT for making that trade happen, as we got a highly rated prospect at a much more valuable position in return for dumping that lazy ass.

[rbaloha1]

Corey Williams=Cleditus Hunt

Dunno how you can that. CW kept playing, kept working hard, as far as anyone can tell. He just wanted to go for the max money, and was willing to risk injury while waiting for FA instead of signing early. He got his money (elsewere) and kept playing. As far as I've heard, still a pretty hard worker, etc. The Browns gave him a ridiculous contract for a 3-4 DE (He was paid like a top flight 4-3 DT) but that's not our problem.

CH took his money, sat in a stool in front of his fridge, and got up in time to waddle to TC.

Another thing about the Williams move. Cleve took a serviceable 4-3 DT and made him a LDE in a 3-4. Talk about a fish out of water. Admittedly an end in a 3-4 doesn't do or get a lot. Williams was completely lost at the job. now we are trying to do the same move with Jolly. Makes me wonder if it will work

Check out comments from the Browns questioning CW's heart and commitment.

[Partial]

CAPS...




Partial, Williams' production just didn't go down when named a starter. He disappeared when named a starter. Did next to nothing worthwhile as a starter. As in he wasn't a starter. Isn't a starter. Doesn't deserve a starters salary. Got one from someone else, glad he didn't get one from us.

WHAT DEFINES A STARTER? HE PLAYED A FAIR AMOUNT OF SNAPS, AS WE SPEND MORE TIME IN NICKEL THAN THE BASE DEFENSE ANYWAY. HE'S NOT A GREAT RUN DEFENDER, BUT HE IS AN EXCELLENT PASS RUSHER FROM INSIDE AS HE HAS SHOWN WITH HIS NUMBERS OVER THE COURSE OF TWO YEARS BEING ELITE.

KGB DID NEXT TO NOTHING AS A STARTER. AS A MATTER OF FACT, THERE ARE PLENTY OF PLAYERS IN THE LEAGUE WHO ARE MUCH BETTER PASS RUSHERS THAN RUN DEFENDERS, AND ARE PAID ACCORDINGLY. I THINK YOUR DEFINITION IS REALLY RIGID AND QUITE FRANKLY OUTDATED WITH THE WAY THE GAME IS PLAYED TODAY.

THE FACT IS COREY WILLIAMS WAS A VERY EFFECTIVE PLAYER WHEN IN A SOLID ROTATION. AS WE SAW LAST YEAR, WHEN THERE ISN'T ANY DEPTH, IT IS DIFFICULT FOR ANY PLAYER TO BE EFFECTIVE.

CULLEN JENKINS IS LOVED ON THIS BOARD, YET HE HAS DONE NEXT TO NOTHING AS A STARTER. HE HAD 4 GREAT WEEKS, A YEAR BELOW THE COACHES EXPECTATIONS, AND AN INJURED YEAR. I DON'T SEE HOW ONE CAN LOVE CULLEN AND THINK HE IS A SOLID/GOOD/GREAT PLAYER WHEN SAID PERSON THINKS COREY WILLIAMS WAS A POOR PLAYER AND STARTER.


Give me Jenkins at Jenkins salary over Williams at Williams' salary any day of the week. The Browns regret paying Williams as much as they did, and we would have if we had signed him also.

SOURCE? AGAIN, MORE SPECULATION.

Williams would not have signed for less money with us. You are assuming that without doing any research into the matter whatsoever, just like all of your assumptions. Had we offered him a backups salary he'd have just went to FA where he could get starters money. We tagged him so we could trade him and get something in return.

I AGREE WE DON'T KNOW IF HE'D SIGN FOR LESS THE YEAR BEFORE. I DON'T THINK THEY MADE MUCH ATTEMPT TO. HOW MUCH DOES HE EVEN GET PAID IN GUARANTEES?

YOU'D TAKE A PLAYER WHO CAN'T STAY ON THE FIELD AND PRODUCE OVER A PLAYER WHO HAS BEEN HEALTHY AND PRODUCTIVE HIS ENTIRE CAREER? COREY WILLIAMS WAS A DAMN GOOD PASS RUSHER FOR US... ARE YOU KIDDING ME DUDE?

At no point were we willing to pay him the money he was asking for, because at no point in his career was he worth that salary. Kudos TT for making that trade happen, as we got a highly rated prospect at a much more valuable position in return for dumping that lazy ass.

LAZY? WHERE? I'VE SEEN ZERO INDICATION THAT HE IS LAZY. FAT? HE'S A DEFENSIVE TACKLE. IS HE SUPPOSED TO BE SLIM? BY DEFENSIVE TACKLE STANDARDS, HE IS HARDLY FAT.

YOU'RE RUNNING YOUR MOUTH AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

[Waldo]

Corey Williams=Cleditus Hunt

Dunno how you can that. CW kept playing, kept working hard, as far as anyone can tell. He just wanted to go for the max money, and was willing to risk injury while waiting for FA instead of signing early. He got his money (elsewere) and kept playing. As far as I've heard, still a pretty hard worker, etc. The Browns gave him a ridiculous contract for a 3-4 DE (He was paid like a top flight 4-3 DT) but that's not our problem.

CH took his money, sat in a stool in front of his fridge, and got up in time to waddle to TC.

Another thing about the Williams move. Cleve took a serviceable 4-3 DT and made him a LDE in a 3-4. Talk about a fish out of water. Admittedly an end in a 3-4 doesn't do or get a lot. Williams was completely lost at the job. now we are trying to do the same move with Jolly. Makes me wonder if it will work

They made him a 2 gap DE. It is fairly obvious that Williams in not a 2 gap lineman, he needs to shoot into a single gap the be effective, when asked to control the gaps on both sides of the guy in front of him, he is pretty worthless, which is why Jolly beat him out in the first place.

Our DE's are going to be 1 gap DE's, and aggressively fire into gaps at the snap. Williams would fit this scheme much better than Cleveland's.

[texaspackerbacker]

Corey Williams was like a lot of the stuff you see in those late night infomercials--perfectly fine ........ just way too expensive.

[Zool]

Corey Williams was like a lot of the stuff you see in those late night infomercials--perfectly fine ........ just way too expensive.

If we order a Williams in the next 10 minutes, we get a second one absolutely free. (just pay $7.2mil in shipping and handling)

[wist43]

In the end, and even the homers can't argue against this, a productive member of the DL rototation is gone

Nope. Disagree. It was known VERY early by the public that Williams was hell bent on becoming a FA. That would mean TT knew even earlier.

William's agent came out and stated TT had approached him, IIRC.

Fair enough... don't remember TT approaching his agent though, but that's probably my faulty memory, as the distractions of life have been getting the better of me for the past couple of years :)

Still in Germany Tar??? Get that job you were after??? Last I remember you were lamenting a bad interview... happens to all of us, lol :)

[wist43]

I think the bone of contention in letting Williams go was in terms of not pursueing a preemptive signing... TT made the decision b/4 that draft, when CW still had a year on his contract, that he was going to boot CW out the door.

In the end, and even the homers can't argue against this, a productive member of the DL rototation is gone; and has been replaced by a non-productive blob... and a 1st round pick was used in the process.

You guys keep trying to defend it all... but that's the end result.

You keep forgetting about cost here wist. Would you have paid Williams what it would have cost to keep him here, even knowing that his production would not warrant that cost? That's the crux of the deal here. Williams is being overpaid. He was going to be overpaid by us, or be overpaid by someone else. It turns out he's being overpaid by someone else. Isn't that a good thing?

No I wouldn't have paid him what he ended up getting... but, as I've said about most of these young, productive guys... sign 'em early. If Tar's memory is correct though, and I'm sure it's better than mine, then Williams would have walked under my watch as well...

At this point, the only guy I'm reasonably sure he'll make sure he gets signed early is Jennings... GJ is the only jewel in TT's crown, so he'll likely move heaven and earth to get him signed.

[RashanGary]

gunakor,

You summed up Corey Williams very well. Also, there was talk about resigning Williams, but he refused. He had 8 sacks the year before and wanted to get paid like an 8 sack DT (36 mil). Cleveland did it, and now regrets it. We did not.

Did it hurt to lose him? Yes. Would it have hurt more to resign him? Yes.

Good decision as the pluses outweighed the minuses (like you explained perfectly)

[Partial]

You guys are whack. How do you know they regret it? Have they cut him lose? Have they expressed this at all. Clearly they thought he was worth it 11 months ago, or they wouldn't have traded.

He's playing a different position. His stats are going to be different as he plays a different role.

[RashanGary]

One thing you almost never see the people who are consistently negative do is weight the positives and negatives and come up with their view of a "whole scope" of a decision.

They're very good at harping on the minuses of a decision, but they are unable to see the whole effect of said decision. It's very hard for me to relate to, but it's something many people are not capable of thinking outside of, so the debates roll on.

[Lurker64]

You guys are whack. How do you know they regret it? Have they cut him lose? Have they expressed this at all. Clearly they thought he was worth it 11 months ago, or they wouldn't have traded.

He's playing a different position. His stats are going to be different as he plays a different role.

But at the same time, considering that the Cleveland GM just got fired, that it might have been a slight miscalculation by Cleveland to trade for a 4-3 DT who was absolutely fabulous at shooting a gap, and converting him to a 3-4 DE who is responsible for controlling two gaps?

Williams is a great physical specimen for 3-4 DE, but his skillset makes him much better for a 1-gap 3-4 than a 2-gap 3-4. Cleveland simply doesn't have the personnel for the 2-gap 3-4, but they're unlikely to change since they replaced a New England guy with a New England guy, and the only people running the 2-gap 3-4 in the NFL these days are Belichik and his disciples.

Oddly enough, Corey Williams would be a great guy for us to have now, possibly even at the money he's getting. I'd be happy to give up Brohm for him...

[Gunakor]

CAPS...




Partial, Williams' production just didn't go down when named a starter. He disappeared when named a starter. Did next to nothing worthwhile as a starter. As in he wasn't a starter. Isn't a starter. Doesn't deserve a starters salary. Got one from someone else, glad he didn't get one from us.

WHAT DEFINES A STARTER? HE PLAYED A FAIR AMOUNT OF SNAPS, AS WE SPEND MORE TIME IN NICKEL THAN THE BASE DEFENSE ANYWAY. HE'S NOT A GREAT RUN DEFENDER, BUT HE IS AN EXCELLENT PASS RUSHER FROM INSIDE AS HE HAS SHOWN WITH HIS NUMBERS OVER THE COURSE OF TWO YEARS BEING ELITE.

KGB DID NEXT TO NOTHING AS A STARTER. AS A MATTER OF FACT, THERE ARE PLENTY OF PLAYERS IN THE LEAGUE WHO ARE MUCH BETTER PASS RUSHERS THAN RUN DEFENDERS, AND ARE PAID ACCORDINGLY. I THINK YOUR DEFINITION IS REALLY RIGID AND QUITE FRANKLY OUTDATED WITH THE WAY THE GAME IS PLAYED TODAY.

THE FACT IS COREY WILLIAMS WAS A VERY EFFECTIVE PLAYER WHEN IN A SOLID ROTATION. AS WE SAW LAST YEAR, WHEN THERE ISN'T ANY DEPTH, IT IS DIFFICULT FOR ANY PLAYER TO BE EFFECTIVE.

CULLEN JENKINS IS LOVED ON THIS BOARD, YET HE HAS DONE NEXT TO NOTHING AS A STARTER. HE HAD 4 GREAT WEEKS, A YEAR BELOW THE COACHES EXPECTATIONS, AND AN INJURED YEAR. I DON'T SEE HOW ONE CAN LOVE CULLEN AND THINK HE IS A SOLID/GOOD/GREAT PLAYER WHEN SAID PERSON THINKS COREY WILLIAMS WAS A POOR PLAYER AND STARTER.


Give me Jenkins at Jenkins salary over Williams at Williams' salary any day of the week. The Browns regret paying Williams as much as they did, and we would have if we had signed him also.

SOURCE? AGAIN, MORE SPECULATION.

Williams would not have signed for less money with us. You are assuming that without doing any research into the matter whatsoever, just like all of your assumptions. Had we offered him a backups salary he'd have just went to FA where he could get starters money. We tagged him so we could trade him and get something in return.

I AGREE WE DON'T KNOW IF HE'D SIGN FOR LESS THE YEAR BEFORE. I DON'T THINK THEY MADE MUCH ATTEMPT TO. HOW MUCH DOES HE EVEN GET PAID IN GUARANTEES?

YOU'D TAKE A PLAYER WHO CAN'T STAY ON THE FIELD AND PRODUCE OVER A PLAYER WHO HAS BEEN HEALTHY AND PRODUCTIVE HIS ENTIRE CAREER? COREY WILLIAMS WAS A DAMN GOOD PASS RUSHER FOR US... ARE YOU KIDDING ME DUDE?

At no point were we willing to pay him the money he was asking for, because at no point in his career was he worth that salary. Kudos TT for making that trade happen, as we got a highly rated prospect at a much more valuable position in return for dumping that lazy ass.

LAZY? WHERE? I'VE SEEN ZERO INDICATION THAT HE IS LAZY. FAT? HE'S A DEFENSIVE TACKLE. IS HE SUPPOSED TO BE SLIM? BY DEFENSIVE TACKLE STANDARDS, HE IS HARDLY FAT.

YOU'RE RUNNING YOUR MOUTH AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

DID YOU EVEN WATCH A SNAP OF HIM IN CLEVELAND THIS YEAR? READ ANY REPORTS COMING OUT OF CLEVELAND ABOUT THEIR EVALUATION OF HIM? YOU ARE THE ONE RUNNING YOUR MOUTH!!! GO DO SOME RESEARCH ON THE TOPIC AND GET BACK TO ME!!!!

[Gunakor]

You guys are whack. How do you know they regret it? Have they cut him lose? Have they expressed this at all. Clearly they thought he was worth it 11 months ago, or they wouldn't have traded.

He's playing a different position. His stats are going to be different as he plays a different role.

Well, it seems things have changed in the 11 months since the trade.

They can't get rid of him. They can't afford the cap hit that would come with it. It was a monster contract they signed him to. A monster contract he has not lived up to. A monster contract they are now regretting paying him, a monster contract they cannot get rid of.

Williams had a few descent games last year. I hear that his week 12 game he played alright, as he did not miss a tackle that day. Good for him. But I can't find any other positive articles about him from last year, yet have found several that have labeled him a disappointment from last year. So I guess he's not garbage, but still garbage value for the contract he was signed to. And they're upset about it. And at this point, they are questioning his desire to be the player they paid for.

So the question stands, would you rather it be Cleveland regretting having to pay him a monster contract, or Green Bay?

[Lurker64]

Having spent a half hour or so cruising Browns message boards for opinions on Corey Williams, I've noticed a few trends among fans.

"Williams is only good as a 4-3 DT"

"(Browns GM) Savage doesn't understand the 3-4 defense, that's why he traded for a guy like Corey Williams."

"Williams could be okay, but he was hurt all of last year, and he was really struggling with the adjustment to the 3-4"

"Corey Williams is a question mark: we don't know if he can stay healthy or adjust to the defense."

"I would attempt to move Williams to a 4-3 team looking for a tackle, all guys can't adjust to moving inside from tackle and playing end in a 3-4 and I feel Williams is that type of player and also he does not have the speed we need from the DE position"

"stallworth and corey williams are interesting cases. they're both being paid way too much for what they produce"

"Not sure that Corey Williams was ever great as a 4-3 DT. If you break him down game by game, virtually all of his sacks in '07 came in the games in which he was brought in on passing downs. When he started, he was decent against the run, but he didn't have a lot of sacks."

"Don't be surprised if the Browns try to move Cory Williams. He just isn't a good fit in the 2 gap 3-4 system. Or, maybe he jsut didn't want to be a good fit in the 3-4. "

"Overrating that clown KILLED us because Robaire Smith was on IR so we had no solutions for him. I don't care what excuses are offered - he STUNK in a 3-4 so the idea was atrocious. It also means we didn't feel compelled to draft anyone there. We paid him a Pro Bowl salary and got an exchange value of 0 sacks even though Savage was excited about his ability to rush the passer. When you have more offsides penalties than sacks as a millionaire - let's just say I'm glad the OWNER asked "why the freak am I paying this sweat the GNP of a couple small countries?""

Seems like the affection for Williams is a lot more sincere in Packerdom than it is in Browns-dom. Also, fans are funny...

[Gunakor]

I'd like to challenge you Partial to produce any reports that Williams is somehow worth a 6 year 38 million dollar contract. Show me the production that warrants that type of salary. Doesn't have to be sacks. Tackles, pressures, forced fumbles, whatever. Use anything you want to try to justify his salary. What has he done that is worth that kind of money?

[Waldo]

CAPS...




Partial, Williams' production just didn't go down when named a starter. He disappeared when named a starter. Did next to nothing worthwhile as a starter. As in he wasn't a starter. Isn't a starter. Doesn't deserve a starters salary. Got one from someone else, glad he didn't get one from us.

WHAT DEFINES A STARTER? HE PLAYED A FAIR AMOUNT OF SNAPS, AS WE SPEND MORE TIME IN NICKEL THAN THE BASE DEFENSE ANYWAY. HE'S NOT A GREAT RUN DEFENDER, BUT HE IS AN EXCELLENT PASS RUSHER FROM INSIDE AS HE HAS SHOWN WITH HIS NUMBERS OVER THE COURSE OF TWO YEARS BEING ELITE.

KGB DID NEXT TO NOTHING AS A STARTER. AS A MATTER OF FACT, THERE ARE PLENTY OF PLAYERS IN THE LEAGUE WHO ARE MUCH BETTER PASS RUSHERS THAN RUN DEFENDERS, AND ARE PAID ACCORDINGLY. I THINK YOUR DEFINITION IS REALLY RIGID AND QUITE FRANKLY OUTDATED WITH THE WAY THE GAME IS PLAYED TODAY.

THE FACT IS COREY WILLIAMS WAS A VERY EFFECTIVE PLAYER WHEN IN A SOLID ROTATION. AS WE SAW LAST YEAR, WHEN THERE ISN'T ANY DEPTH, IT IS DIFFICULT FOR ANY PLAYER TO BE EFFECTIVE.

CULLEN JENKINS IS LOVED ON THIS BOARD, YET HE HAS DONE NEXT TO NOTHING AS A STARTER. HE HAD 4 GREAT WEEKS, A YEAR BELOW THE COACHES EXPECTATIONS, AND AN INJURED YEAR. I DON'T SEE HOW ONE CAN LOVE CULLEN AND THINK HE IS A SOLID/GOOD/GREAT PLAYER WHEN SAID PERSON THINKS COREY WILLIAMS WAS A POOR PLAYER AND STARTER.


Give me Jenkins at Jenkins salary over Williams at Williams' salary any day of the week. The Browns regret paying Williams as much as they did, and we would have if we had signed him also.

SOURCE? AGAIN, MORE SPECULATION.

Williams would not have signed for less money with us. You are assuming that without doing any research into the matter whatsoever, just like all of your assumptions. Had we offered him a backups salary he'd have just went to FA where he could get starters money. We tagged him so we could trade him and get something in return.

I AGREE WE DON'T KNOW IF HE'D SIGN FOR LESS THE YEAR BEFORE. I DON'T THINK THEY MADE MUCH ATTEMPT TO. HOW MUCH DOES HE EVEN GET PAID IN GUARANTEES?

YOU'D TAKE A PLAYER WHO CAN'T STAY ON THE FIELD AND PRODUCE OVER A PLAYER WHO HAS BEEN HEALTHY AND PRODUCTIVE HIS ENTIRE CAREER? COREY WILLIAMS WAS A DAMN GOOD PASS RUSHER FOR US... ARE YOU KIDDING ME DUDE?

At no point were we willing to pay him the money he was asking for, because at no point in his career was he worth that salary. Kudos TT for making that trade happen, as we got a highly rated prospect at a much more valuable position in return for dumping that lazy ass.

LAZY? WHERE? I'VE SEEN ZERO INDICATION THAT HE IS LAZY. FAT? HE'S A DEFENSIVE TACKLE. IS HE SUPPOSED TO BE SLIM? BY DEFENSIVE TACKLE STANDARDS, HE IS HARDLY FAT.

YOU'RE RUNNING YOUR MOUTH AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

DID YOU EVEN WATCH A SNAP OF HIM IN CLEVELAND THIS YEAR? READ ANY REPORTS COMING OUT OF CLEVELAND ABOUT THEIR EVALUATION OF HIM? YOU ARE THE ONE RUNNING YOUR MOUTH!!! GO DO SOME RESEARCH ON THE TOPIC AND GET BACK TO ME!!!!

http://media1.guzer.com/pictures/caps-lock.jpg

[Gunakor]

CAPS...




Partial, Williams' production just didn't go down when named a starter. He disappeared when named a starter. Did next to nothing worthwhile as a starter. As in he wasn't a starter. Isn't a starter. Doesn't deserve a starters salary. Got one from someone else, glad he didn't get one from us.

WHAT DEFINES A STARTER? HE PLAYED A FAIR AMOUNT OF SNAPS, AS WE SPEND MORE TIME IN NICKEL THAN THE BASE DEFENSE ANYWAY. HE'S NOT A GREAT RUN DEFENDER, BUT HE IS AN EXCELLENT PASS RUSHER FROM INSIDE AS HE HAS SHOWN WITH HIS NUMBERS OVER THE COURSE OF TWO YEARS BEING ELITE.

KGB DID NEXT TO NOTHING AS A STARTER. AS A MATTER OF FACT, THERE ARE PLENTY OF PLAYERS IN THE LEAGUE WHO ARE MUCH BETTER PASS RUSHERS THAN RUN DEFENDERS, AND ARE PAID ACCORDINGLY. I THINK YOUR DEFINITION IS REALLY RIGID AND QUITE FRANKLY OUTDATED WITH THE WAY THE GAME IS PLAYED TODAY.

THE FACT IS COREY WILLIAMS WAS A VERY EFFECTIVE PLAYER WHEN IN A SOLID ROTATION. AS WE SAW LAST YEAR, WHEN THERE ISN'T ANY DEPTH, IT IS DIFFICULT FOR ANY PLAYER TO BE EFFECTIVE.

CULLEN JENKINS IS LOVED ON THIS BOARD, YET HE HAS DONE NEXT TO NOTHING AS A STARTER. HE HAD 4 GREAT WEEKS, A YEAR BELOW THE COACHES EXPECTATIONS, AND AN INJURED YEAR. I DON'T SEE HOW ONE CAN LOVE CULLEN AND THINK HE IS A SOLID/GOOD/GREAT PLAYER WHEN SAID PERSON THINKS COREY WILLIAMS WAS A POOR PLAYER AND STARTER.


Give me Jenkins at Jenkins salary over Williams at Williams' salary any day of the week. The Browns regret paying Williams as much as they did, and we would have if we had signed him also.

SOURCE? AGAIN, MORE SPECULATION.

Williams would not have signed for less money with us. You are assuming that without doing any research into the matter whatsoever, just like all of your assumptions. Had we offered him a backups salary he'd have just went to FA where he could get starters money. We tagged him so we could trade him and get something in return.

I AGREE WE DON'T KNOW IF HE'D SIGN FOR LESS THE YEAR BEFORE. I DON'T THINK THEY MADE MUCH ATTEMPT TO. HOW MUCH DOES HE EVEN GET PAID IN GUARANTEES?

YOU'D TAKE A PLAYER WHO CAN'T STAY ON THE FIELD AND PRODUCE OVER A PLAYER WHO HAS BEEN HEALTHY AND PRODUCTIVE HIS ENTIRE CAREER? COREY WILLIAMS WAS A DAMN GOOD PASS RUSHER FOR US... ARE YOU KIDDING ME DUDE?

At no point were we willing to pay him the money he was asking for, because at no point in his career was he worth that salary. Kudos TT for making that trade happen, as we got a highly rated prospect at a much more valuable position in return for dumping that lazy ass.

LAZY? WHERE? I'VE SEEN ZERO INDICATION THAT HE IS LAZY. FAT? HE'S A DEFENSIVE TACKLE. IS HE SUPPOSED TO BE SLIM? BY DEFENSIVE TACKLE STANDARDS, HE IS HARDLY FAT.

YOU'RE RUNNING YOUR MOUTH AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

DID YOU EVEN WATCH A SNAP OF HIM IN CLEVELAND THIS YEAR? READ ANY REPORTS COMING OUT OF CLEVELAND ABOUT THEIR EVALUATION OF HIM? YOU ARE THE ONE RUNNING YOUR MOUTH!!! GO DO SOME RESEARCH ON THE TOPIC AND GET BACK TO ME!!!!

http://media1.guzer.com/pictures/caps-lock.jpg

Yeah Waldo, I know. I was only using caps to respond to his post directed at me that was all caps. Hopefully it pissed him off as much as it did you, and he won't do it again.

[Gunakor]

HOW MUCH DOES HE EVEN GET PAID IN GUARANTEES?

16.3 million guaranteed, roughly half his contract total.

[Lurker64]

HOW MUCH DOES HE EVEN GET PAID IN GUARANTEES?

16.3 million guaranteed, roughly half his contract total.

You forgot to scream your answer.

[Gunakor]

HOW MUCH DOES HE EVEN GET PAID IN GUARANTEES?

16.3 million guaranteed, roughly half his contract total.

You forgot to scream your answer.

No, I'm only gonna do that once, and hope realizes that it's best not to scream the question in the first place.

[Fritz]

CAPS...




Partial, Williams' production just didn't go down when named a starter. He disappeared when named a starter. Did next to nothing worthwhile as a starter. As in he wasn't a starter. Isn't a starter. Doesn't deserve a starters salary. Got one from someone else, glad he didn't get one from us.

WHAT DEFINES A STARTER? HE PLAYED A FAIR AMOUNT OF SNAPS, AS WE SPEND MORE TIME IN NICKEL THAN THE BASE DEFENSE ANYWAY. HE'S NOT A GREAT RUN DEFENDER, BUT HE IS AN EXCELLENT PASS RUSHER FROM INSIDE AS HE HAS SHOWN WITH HIS NUMBERS OVER THE COURSE OF TWO YEARS BEING ELITE.

KGB DID NEXT TO NOTHING AS A STARTER. AS A MATTER OF FACT, THERE ARE PLENTY OF PLAYERS IN THE LEAGUE WHO ARE MUCH BETTER PASS RUSHERS THAN RUN DEFENDERS, AND ARE PAID ACCORDINGLY. I THINK YOUR DEFINITION IS REALLY RIGID AND QUITE FRANKLY OUTDATED WITH THE WAY THE GAME IS PLAYED TODAY.

THE FACT IS COREY WILLIAMS WAS A VERY EFFECTIVE PLAYER WHEN IN A SOLID ROTATION. AS WE SAW LAST YEAR, WHEN THERE ISN'T ANY DEPTH, IT IS DIFFICULT FOR ANY PLAYER TO BE EFFECTIVE.

CULLEN JENKINS IS LOVED ON THIS BOARD, YET HE HAS DONE NEXT TO NOTHING AS A STARTER. HE HAD 4 GREAT WEEKS, A YEAR BELOW THE COACHES EXPECTATIONS, AND AN INJURED YEAR. I DON'T SEE HOW ONE CAN LOVE CULLEN AND THINK HE IS A SOLID/GOOD/GREAT PLAYER WHEN SAID PERSON THINKS COREY WILLIAMS WAS A POOR PLAYER AND STARTER.


Give me Jenkins at Jenkins salary over Williams at Williams' salary any day of the week. The Browns regret paying Williams as much as they did, and we would have if we had signed him also.

SOURCE? AGAIN, MORE SPECULATION.

Williams would not have signed for less money with us. You are assuming that without doing any research into the matter whatsoever, just like all of your assumptions. Had we offered him a backups salary he'd have just went to FA where he could get starters money. We tagged him so we could trade him and get something in return.

I AGREE WE DON'T KNOW IF HE'D SIGN FOR LESS THE YEAR BEFORE. I DON'T THINK THEY MADE MUCH ATTEMPT TO. HOW MUCH DOES HE EVEN GET PAID IN GUARANTEES?

YOU'D TAKE A PLAYER WHO CAN'T STAY ON THE FIELD AND PRODUCE OVER A PLAYER WHO HAS BEEN HEALTHY AND PRODUCTIVE HIS ENTIRE CAREER? COREY WILLIAMS WAS A DAMN GOOD PASS RUSHER FOR US... ARE YOU KIDDING ME DUDE?

At no point were we willing to pay him the money he was asking for, because at no point in his career was he worth that salary. Kudos TT for making that trade happen, as we got a highly rated prospect at a much more valuable position in return for dumping that lazy ass.

LAZY? WHERE? I'VE SEEN ZERO INDICATION THAT HE IS LAZY. FAT? HE'S A DEFENSIVE TACKLE. IS HE SUPPOSED TO BE SLIM? BY DEFENSIVE TACKLE STANDARDS, HE IS HARDLY FAT.

YOU'RE RUNNING YOUR MOUTH AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

DID YOU EVEN WATCH A SNAP OF HIM IN CLEVELAND THIS YEAR? READ ANY REPORTS COMING OUT OF CLEVELAND ABOUT THEIR EVALUATION OF HIM? YOU ARE THE ONE RUNNING YOUR MOUTH!!! GO DO SOME RESEARCH ON THE TOPIC AND GET BACK TO ME!!!!

http://media1.guzer.com/pictures/caps-lock.jpg

Yeah Waldo, I know. I was only using caps to respond to his post directed at me that was all caps. Hopefully it pissed him off as much as it did you, and he won't do it again.

The woman in the picture does have a nice rack, though.

[KYPack]

LAZY? WHERE? I'VE SEEN ZERO INDICATION THAT HE IS LAZY. FAT? HE'S A DEFENSIVE TACKLE. IS HE SUPPOSED TO BE SLIM? BY DEFENSIVE TACKLE STANDARDS, HE IS HARDLY FAT.

YOU'RE RUNNING YOUR MOUTH AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

Partial, this just ain't been your year.

Do you have your underwear on too tight or something?

Most of your shit this year has been bad news.

Try to pick it up, willya?

[Rastak]

What I've gotten from this argument is that you can't assume a guy who plays well in a 4-3 can do it in a 3-4.

:wink:

[Partial]

You guys are whack. How do you know they regret it? Have they cut him lose? Have they expressed this at all. Clearly they thought he was worth it 11 months ago, or they wouldn't have traded.

He's playing a different position. His stats are going to be different as he plays a different role.

But at the same time, considering that the Cleveland GM just got fired, that it might have been a slight miscalculation by Cleveland to trade for a 4-3 DT who was absolutely fabulous at shooting a gap, and converting him to a 3-4 DE who is responsible for controlling two gaps?

Williams is a great physical specimen for 3-4 DE, but his skillset makes him much better for a 1-gap 3-4 than a 2-gap 3-4. Cleveland simply doesn't have the personnel for the 2-gap 3-4, but they're unlikely to change since they replaced a New England guy with a New England guy, and the only people running the 2-gap 3-4 in the NFL these days are Belichik and his disciples.

Oddly enough, Corey Williams would be a great guy for us to have now, possibly even at the money he's getting. I'd be happy to give up Brohm for him...

I think this is probably right on. I don't think Cleveland is in any tough position where they are overpaying big time for a horrendous player in Williams. He's a solid starter for them. Maybe not producing to their standards that they paid him, but there are plenty of explanations for that.

[HarveyWallbangers]

What I've gotten from this argument is that you can't assume a guy who plays well in a 4-3 can do it in a 3-4.

:wink:

Or you can expect a pass rushing 4-3 DT to do well as a run stuffing 3-4 DE. I'm not sure we have any good pass rushing 4-3 DTs anymore.
:D

[Gunakor]

Oddly enough, Corey Williams would be a great guy for us to have now, possibly even at the money he's getting. I'd be happy to give up Brohm for him...

Maybe, but not at the money he's getting. 3-4 DE's shouldn't be paid like that. It's not unheard of, but it's more than I'd want to pay at that position. His cap number this year is 8.83 million dollars. Next year his cap number is 8.23 million. That's ALOT of money for a 3-4 DE.

And I'm not so certain I'm ready to give up on Brohm either. Keep in mind it took Rodgers a couple years working with MM before he got it, and that seemed to turn out okay. MM is a fantastic QB coach. He even got a good year or two out of Aaron Brooks in New Orleans, as others have noted. With time I think Brohm could develop into a starting caliber QB. Then, after several years having a pretty good to great backup QB, we can trade him to a QB deprived team (outside the NFC North) to recoup the pick spent on him.

[wist43]

LAZY? WHERE? I'VE SEEN ZERO INDICATION THAT HE IS LAZY. FAT? HE'S A DEFENSIVE TACKLE. IS HE SUPPOSED TO BE SLIM? BY DEFENSIVE TACKLE STANDARDS, HE IS HARDLY FAT.

YOU'RE RUNNING YOUR MOUTH AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

Partial, this just ain't been your year.

Do you have your underwear on too tight or something?

Most of your shit this year has been bad news.

Try to pick it up, willya?

Easy for a 60 year old guy to say... sittin there in ur easy chair :)

[KYPack]

LAZY? WHERE? I'VE SEEN ZERO INDICATION THAT HE IS LAZY. FAT? HE'S A DEFENSIVE TACKLE. IS HE SUPPOSED TO BE SLIM? BY DEFENSIVE TACKLE STANDARDS, HE IS HARDLY FAT.

YOU'RE RUNNING YOUR MOUTH AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

Partial, this just ain't been your year.

Do you have your underwear on too tight or something?

Most of your shit this year has been bad news.

Try to pick it up, willya?

Easy for a 60 year old guy to say... sittin there in ur easy chair :)

I knew I never shudda made that dern post.

Freakin' Crown Royal, anyhow.

That was little harsh on 'ol P, but sheesh! The boy has been on a bad run lately.

[Partial]

For what, exactly? You quoted me saying that Corey Williams isn't fat or lazy by DT standards. Do you have anything to counter that argument?

[Guiness]

The woman in the picture does have a nice rack, though.

Looks like Wonderbra magic to me.

[Tarlam!]

For what, exactly? You quoted me saying that Corey Williams isn't fat or lazy by DT standards. Do you have anything to counter that argument?

Apart from Williams' work ethic, your position in this argument, Partial, is just plain ornery. KY has pointed out that this has become a trend in your posting.

You always have tried to be the devil's advocate, which is fine. But lately, you've really lost a lot of credibility due to what seems to be just plain stubbornness, or, sadly, ignorance.

I have never claimed know much about football, but I read the positions of the posters here quite carefully. You are living on an island with your positions, Mate.

[Fritz]

For what, exactly? You quoted me saying that Corey Williams isn't fat or lazy by DT standards. Do you have anything to counter that argument?

Apart from Williams' work ethic, your position in this argument, Partial, is just plain ornery. KY has pointed out that this has become a trend in your posting.

You always have tried to be the devil's advocate, which is fine. But lately, you've really lost a lot of credibility due to what seems to be just plain stubbornness, or, sadly, ignorance.

I have never claimed know much about football, but I read the positions of the posters here quite carefully. You are living on an island with your positions, Mate.

You could, though, say that his opinions are Partially correct.

[Partial]

Nah, somehow people judge me because I don't think Aaron Rodgers is excellent. That's really what it all comes down to. Corey Williams was a great player for us, and was very successful. He was a better pass rusher than a run defender, and when asked to be a 3 down player (aka not the rotation that the rest of the defensive linemen play in -- outside Kampman), he wasn't as effective. Go figure.

This is a completely logical and fair argument. He was very, very good for us. So much so that he had premiere sack numbers for a defensive tackle in his two years prior to departing.

I'm saying value is relative. Corey Williams was a way more valuable part time player to us, when he could be fresh and excellent at his craft. When he was asked to be an every down player, he became only average at everything.

Everyone says he's not worth it, but inside pass rush is the most difficult thing to find in the NFL. Since he left, we haven't had any, we've had poor depth on the line, and we've had overall poor performances on the line. He certainly brought plenty of value.

So, where, exactly, is the opinion arrogant, or ornery-ness. I don't see it at all.

Was it because I used caps? I did that because it is irritating to break things down by paragraphs and add quote tags to each paragraph.

[Tarlam!]

The fact is, Parsch, value is perception. Perception, in business (especially if your the customer), is truth. That's about the first thing I teach my sales people when they begin their trainingg.

And the perception around these parts is that Cleveland got no value, but the Packers did in the Williams trade.

You've stopped short of saying outrightly TT should have paid Williams all that money that Savage did. But you have insinuated it. Should TT have paid all that money, Partial??

We have already established Williams was never going to extend prior to or during his last season, so, if you continue to claim TT should have re-signed him early, then, that is plain stubborn or ignorant. He tried and was dissed by the agent. It was on JSO.

P.S. Arrogant is your word- Ornery and stubbon with the possibility of ignorance are mine.

[Fritz]

Partial, I don't think people dismiss you because you don't love Aaron Rodgers. I think it's that when people try to point out facts that don't support your assertions, you seem to try to backtrack and claim you meant something else, or that those particular facts don't matter. In other words, you seem unwilling to acknowledge that you might, perhaps, be wrong, or that your opinion is only an opinion and that others' opinions might be as good or perhaps better.

Sometimes people make claims that they just can't support - and that's okay, as long as you can admit to that.

I've seen threads where people completely agree with you. Heck, I've agreed with your opinion on a few occasions.

[Partial]

The fact is, Parsch, value is perception. Perception, in business (especially if your the customer), is truth. That's about the first thing I teach my sales people when they begin their trainingg.

And the perception around these parts is that Cleveland got no value, but the Packers did in the Williams trade.

You've stopped short of saying outrightly TT should have paid Williams all that money that Savage did. But you have insinuated it. Should TT have paid all that money, Partial??

We have already established Williams was never going to extend prior to or during his last season, so, if you continue to claim TT should have re-signed him early, then, that is plain stubborn or ignorant. He tried and was dissed by the agent. It was on JSO.

P.S. Arrogant is your word- Ornery and stubbon with the possibility of ignorance are mine.

No, I don't think he should have paid him that much. Do I think he had to? Not necessarily. Do I think he should have been resigned? Maybe. Not sure.

He was a very good player here and excelled in his defined role. The market dictated a price for him, and Cleveland paid it. Do I think they regret that decision? No, because it shows the fans they're willing to try to improve at the very least.

Chris Canty, a 3-4 end, was significantly less productive # wise than Williams, and he signed for more money a year later.

My point is that value is relative, and Williams was not worthless. In fact, he was very valuable to us, and definitely hurt our team when he left.

[Dylan McKay]

I am trying to follow this thread from the Williams point on, the argument on one side was that he was a valuable player to the Packers, but was he valuable enough to resign? Was his value enough to warrant a trade for 2nd round pick? Was he valuable enough to sign for 7.2 million dollars?

Williams had his role on the Packers and he performed quite well as an inside pass rushers. He wasn't a player that could play 60 snaps a game as a tackle. To me you don't pay him as a top ten tackle if he can't control the line of scrimmage on a full time basis. I think getting a 2nd pick for guy that was a part time player that you weren't interested in signing for the longterm was a damn good move on Thompson's part.

[texaspackerbacker]

In reply to partial's post two up from here:

True, but that only became the case when Jenkins went down--in addition to Harrell not playing, KGB fading away, the LB injuries, the Safety injuries, etc.

Some might call it an injury-ruined season.

[Lurker64]

Chris Canty, a 3-4 end, was significantly less productive # wise than Williams, and he signed for more money a year later.

Chris Canty is no longer a 3-4 End, he was paid to play under tackle in the 4-3, which is a significantly higher money position (it's Kevin Williams' and Albert Haynesworth's position). The Giants are taking the same risk in paying Canty big money for a position switch (Canty had played DE in the 3-4 since College) that the Browns took paying Williams big money for a position switch. I'm not sure how wise either move is.

[Bretsky]

The Williams trade wouldn't chaff nearly as bad if TTT used the pick to select somebody who showed something right off the bat. But he went for a backup QB pretty high when many were high with AROD love...which it looks like was well deserved.

ThAT Brohm looked poor (not that abnormal for a first year QB) and the seventh rounder outperformed him......bites even a bit more in the short term.

I would not have paid Williams the money he received; but he was a valuable part to this defense in that rotation.

So the combo of Harrell sucking wind so far and Brohm being the pick rather than somebody who might help sooner still makes me a bit sick about all of these decisions.

[Gunakor]

The Williams trade wouldn't chaff nearly as bad if TTT used the pick to select somebody who showed something right off the bat. But he went for a backup QB pretty high when many were high with AROD love...which it looks like was well deserved.

ThAT Brohm looked poor (not that abnormal for a first year QB) and the seventh rounder outperformed him......bites even a bit more in the short term.

I would not have paid Williams the money he received; but he was a valuable part to this defense in that rotation.

So the combo of Harrell sucking wind so far and Brohm being the pick rather than somebody who might help sooner still makes me a bit sick about all of these decisions.

Well, we needed a backup for Rodgers. We loved Rodgers, but understood quite clearly his injury history. So we drafted a QB that looked like the steal of the draft when he was selected.

At the very least we'll get a serviceable backup QB for a few years and then trade him away to a QB needy team and get back the draft pick we spent on him. That's plenty enough value for a team's second pick in the second round. Wouldn't you agree?

[Fritz]

Bretsky, how many second round picks can help "right away"? I would argue that very, very few can. Maybe a running back - that position seems to be one that can be learned more quickly than, say, offensive guard or safety - or any other position, for that matter.

You never were going to get someone to help "right away," and so Brohm - a potential starter down the road, for the Pack or for someone - was a good pick. It was a risk to take two rookie QB's into the season last year as your back ups, but it worked. This year, you've got a pretty solid QB group.

How many NFL teams do you know of that have a young, franchise QB AND two young, developing QB's?

Williams prolly woulda helped, yes. But would you like to have that dude locked up for 7 mill or whatever last year and another 7 mill this year, and thus have that much less to re-sign Jennings, Colledge, Collins, Kampman, Spitz, Blackmon, et al?

[Gunakor]

Williams prolly woulda helped, yes. But would you like to have that dude locked up for 7 mill or whatever last year and another 7 mill this year, and thus have that much less to re-sign Jennings, Colledge, Collins, Kampman, Spitz, Blackmon, et al?

Williams was a little less than 3.5 million last year. And I'd have gladly paid that much for him. His cap numbers this year and next year are the ones that are so retarded. 8.6 million this year, 8.3 million next year (approximately). That's a ton of money.

[Fritz]

Even better in terms of my point, then. It's already going to be a challenge to fit Jennings et al under the sal cap - if you had Williams at those numbers, you'd lose someone for sure.

I'd rather have, say, Colledge and Spitz, or Collins and Colledge and Blackmon, or some combination (I'm assuming that Jennings and Kampman will get deals done) than just Williams. Specially now that the team is going to a 3-4, and we already know how Williams did with that.

[texaspackerbacker]

It was an extra pick that we wouldn't even have had without the trade. Thompson treated it that way--using it for what seemed to be a bargain that fell to us in Brohm. Right now, it ain't looking like much of a bargain, but it's way too early to tell with a QB--just look at Rodgers and what people thought of him after one year.

As I said, the only reason Williams was missed at all was because of the horrendous bunch of injuries on defense.

[Bretsky]

The Williams trade wouldn't chaff nearly as bad if TTT used the pick to select somebody who showed something right off the bat. But he went for a backup QB pretty high when many were high with AROD love...which it looks like was well deserved.

ThAT Brohm looked poor (not that abnormal for a first year QB) and the seventh rounder outperformed him......bites even a bit more in the short term.

I would not have paid Williams the money he received; but he was a valuable part to this defense in that rotation.

So the combo of Harrell sucking wind so far and Brohm being the pick rather than somebody who might help sooner still makes me a bit sick about all of these decisions.

Well, we needed a backup for Rodgers. We loved Rodgers, but understood quite clearly his injury history. So we drafted a QB that looked like the steal of the draft when he was selected.

At the very least we'll get a serviceable backup QB for a few years and then trade him away to a QB needy team and get back the draft pick we spent on him. That's plenty enough value for a team's second pick in the second round. Wouldn't you agree?


No, I don't agree with all of this; at worst case Brohm does not perform to his pick and we get little out of him in Green Bay or in a trade. And that would not be much. At this point we have a third stringer.

Most, including me, felt it sensible to get a vet backup so our hand was not forced in the draft. Chad Henne was also considered a steal of the draft. But the Dolphins didn't have a young up and comer.

[Bretsky]

Bretsky, how many second round picks can help "right away"? I would argue that very, very few can. Maybe a running back - that position seems to be one that can be learned more quickly than, say, offensive guard or safety - or any other position, for that matter.

You never were going to get someone to help "right away," and so Brohm - a potential starter down the road, for the Pack or for someone - was a good pick. It was a risk to take two rookie QB's into the season last year as your back ups, but it worked. This year, you've got a pretty solid QB group.

How many NFL teams do you know of that have a young, franchise QB AND two young, developing QB's?

Williams prolly woulda helped, yes. But would you like to have that dude locked up for 7 mill or whatever last year and another 7 mill this year, and thus have that much less to re-sign Jennings, Colledge, Collins, Kampman, Spitz, Blackmon, et al?


At QB, pretty much none. With our DL status I'd bet there would have been help out there. I'd have to look at the guys drafted after Brohm to get you a list. It's not like we are the Patriots or Steelers. We were 6-10. Plenty of holes. I don't think it's unreasonable for fans to think a second rounder.....could....help right away....although you could use our two second round picks last year as evidence to support your case.

[Bretsky]

It was an extra pick that we wouldn't even have had without the trade. Thompson treated it that way--using it for what seemed to be a bargain that fell to us in Brohm. Right now, it ain't looking like much of a bargain, but it's way too early to tell with a QB--just look at Rodgers and what people thought of him after one year.

As I said, the only reason Williams was missed at all was because of the horrendous bunch of injuries on defense.


Williams was missed for plenty of reasons....injuries part of it. Part of it was we had yahoos names Montgomery and Hunter still on the roster instead of better players.

[Joemailman]

It was an extra pick that we wouldn't even have had without the trade. Thompson treated it that way--using it for what seemed to be a bargain that fell to us in Brohm. Right now, it ain't looking like much of a bargain, but it's way too early to tell with a QB--just look at Rodgers and what people thought of him after one year.

As I said, the only reason Williams was missed at all was because of the horrendous bunch of injuries on defense.


Williams was missed for plenty of reasons....injuries part of it. Part of it was we had yahoos names Montgomery and Hunter still on the roster instead of better players.

The biggest problem IMHO was that we had a DC who couldn't make the adjustments necessitated by the injuries. Baltimore had a great defense despite losing some starters to injuries, but they had a great DC.

[Waldo]

Do you guys think that Partial is actually serious?

Or does he just argue for the sake of arguing, and take the punching bag stance on everything because it is fun.

[Partial]

Do you guys think that Partial is actually serious?

Or does he just argue for the sake of arguing, and take the punching bag stance on everything because it is fun.

The problem with this group is its become a bunch of sheep. They all think the same things, very little debate, etc. There is little doubt CWill was a good player. If you guys have convinced yourself otherwise, well, that is your problem.

[Waldo]

My problem is too many people agree with me.

I've always held the opinion that Williams was crap, basically a 300lb KGB, good as a situational rusher and that's it. And was a black sheep for a long time for my view. When Jolly beat him out it was a sign that MM agreed with me too. Since then virtually everybody has come around.

Starters money for him is a joke.

Would you give Rodgers a 5 yr 150M contract?

That is akin to giving Williams 6.5M/yr.

He might be better than we have now, but you still don't give a guy worth 2-3M/yr two to three times as much just to stick around.

[Patler]

Do you guys think that Partial is actually serious?

Or does he just argue for the sake of arguing, and take the punching bag stance on everything because it is fun.

The problem with this group is its become a bunch of sheep. They all think the same things, very little debate, etc. There is little doubt CWill was a good player. If you guys have convinced yourself otherwise, well, that is your problem.

Partial, I agree with your premise. Williams was a good player in GB, and was missed. I think you will find that I argued Williams would be missed long before he was traded. Sure he will never be a HOFer, may not even be a Pro-Bowler. He had several 4 or 5 game "quiet periods" in both '06 and '07, both when starting and when not starting. But, in the end he had more sacks those two seasons than any other DT in the NFL, and almost more importantly, no other Packer DT showed much aptitude those two seasons for getting sacks.

How could he not be missed at least a bit?

But, sometimes helpful players have to be allowed to leave. He became priced out of his value level. Getting a second round pick for him was the right thing to do.

[Partial]

I agree. I also agree he was very expensive for a part time player. My main beef is people saying he's worthless, fat, and lazy, like Gunk. That is a load of BS.

As I said, I have no idea whether we should have resigned him, but he was very good in his situational role, and a marginal starter.

[Gunakor]

I agree. I also agree he was very expensive for a part time player. My main beef is people saying he's worthless, fat, and lazy, like Gunk. That is a load of BS.

As I said, I have no idea whether we should have resigned him, but he was very good in his situational role, and a marginal starter.

When did I call him fat or worthless? Don't put words in my mouth. I said he's lazy and doesn't show the desire to live up to the contract he was signed to. If you don't agree with me, look at what Browns fans have to say about him. Look at what Packers fans have to say about him after being named a starter. I am certainly not the only one who shares this view.

I said, in this very thread one page back, that I'd have gladly paid the 3.5 million he made last year for him - as long as that's all it cost was 3.5 per over the length of the contract. The problem I have, and I thought I made it clear, was that his cap number jumps to 8.6 million this year. That would have made him the highest paid 3-4 end in the NFL last year, and it might this year too.

[Tarlam!]

Do you guys think that Partial is actually serious?

Yes. I've hung out with Partial and I know he is a very passionate GBP fan that takes a position and defends it vigorously. It's nearly impossible to budge him, once he's made his mind up about something, even if logic or facts tell a different story. His last position on Williams has somewhat been put into perspective and is now less extreme.

He is quite young compared to say, KY or OPF. He isn't the type to shy away from a controversy and is self confident enough in (verbal) conflict situations to stand his ground.

Frankly, Partial and I had a good time together and at the first Packer Rats Game Day, he contributed to the great time that was had by all.

I appreciate Partial's PR contributions, even though I rarely share his opinions completely. Yet, he forces me to think "outside of the box", which is a good thing.

[Bretsky]

My problem is too many people agree with me.

I've always held the opinion that Williams was crap, basically a 300lb KGB, good as a situational rusher and that's it. And was a black sheep for a long time for my view. When Jolly beat him out it was a sign that MM agreed with me too. Since then virtually everybody has come around.

Starters money for him is a joke.

Would you give Rodgers a 5 yr 150M contract?

That is akin to giving Williams 6.5M/yr.

He might be better than we have now, but you still don't give a guy worth 2-3M/yr two to three times as much just to stick around.

Williams was still a wonderful part to that group; what he added made Jenkins more effecive and vise versa. Was he a starter ? No. But he was much better than a reserve as well. He just found a sucker to pay him like a legit starter. As for Jolly, I'm not convinced his beating out Williams, so to speak...has shown me anything that leaves hope for calling Jolly a legitimate starter as well. They were all a good rotation. Colin Cole got 4 MIL per year. In today's market Williams is not a 2-3 million dollar player.
He's not worth 6 MIL either but IMO well over the 2-3 range. As I noted, I'm glad he went elsewhere. Never too fond of the Brohm pick though.
The homers IMO bag on him too much because TT chose to let him fly. Seeing Jolly play more has not convinced me he's any better, and CW definitely added more that guys like Cole and Montgomery.

[Lurker64]

When did I call him fat or worthless? Don't put words in my mouth. I said he's lazy and doesn't show the desire to live up to the contract he was signed to. If you don't agree with me, look at what Browns fans have to say about him. Look at what Packers fans have to say about him after being named a starter. I am certainly not the only one who shares this view.

The thing is though, that there are almost no players who are quite as bad as fans think they are if they aren't particularly good players, and there are almost no players who are quite as good as fans think they are if they are good players. Fans are almost always wrong about this sort of thing.

You come off a bad year, and you're garbage. You come off a good year and you're a hall of famer. You see it in every fan community, including this one.

I do not personally think that Williams is quite as bad a player as Browns fans appear to think he is (though I definitely agree with you, in that Browns fans think he's terrible and would like their second round pick back), as there are a few mitigating circumstances:
a) Williams was playing with a separated shoulder last year, which limited his effectiveness.
b) Williams is playing in a scheme that he is not suited for.

But it's a bad idea to look at what fans say and take that as the truth. When the Browns traded for Williams they thought he was "a starter and a pro bowler" when in fact he is neither. Currently, they think he is lazy, useless, and a bad player when he may not be any of those things. I think we can all agree that Williams's contract is too fat for what he was accomplishing in Green Bay, let alone what he has accomplished in Cleveland. Whether or not he's a good player, bad player, injured, healthy, in a good scheme, in a bad scheme... who knows. But he is currently set to be overpaid as a function of his productivity and position.

I think we can also all agree that, since Williams was unwilling to negotiate a contract with Green Bay before hitting free agency, getting a 2nd round pick out of a player who were were either going to have to overpay (like Cleveland did) or let walk was a good move on the part of our General Manager; even though we may not like how that pick was spent.

[Patler]

I do not understand why some are so fascinated by, impressed with or put so much emphasis on who was on the field at DT for the Packers on the first defensive play. With as much as they rotated DTs what did it matter who started?

Williams wasn't a "starter"? - He started 20 of 32 games in '06 & '07.

Jolly "beat him out"? Not really. Jolly may have been the guy who played 1st down in the first series, but when Jolly was lost for the season, an article showed that when both were available in '07, Williams played a lot more snaps per game than Jolly did. Jolly started. Williams played more. Does it really matter who played on the 1st snap?

[HarveyWallbangers]

Williams was still a wonderful part to that group; what he added made Jenkins more effecive and vise versa. Was he a starter ? No. But he was much better than a reserve as well. He just found a sucker to pay him like a legit starter. As for Jolly, I'm not convinced his beating out Williams, so to speak...has shown me anything that leaves hope for calling Jolly a legitimate starter as well. They were all a good rotation. Colin Cole got 4 MIL per year. In today's market Williams is not a 2-3 million dollar player.

He's not worth 6 MIL either but IMO well over the 2-3 range. As I noted, I'm glad he went elsewhere. Never too fond of the Brohm pick though.
The homers IMO bag on him too much because TT chose to let him fly. Seeing Jolly play more has not convinced me he's any better, and CW definitely added more that guys like Cole and Montgomery.

I'm not going to bag on him. He was a helpful member of the rotation and he was better than Cole and Montgomery. Two issues (with your take and Patler's take):

1) His sacks compared to the number of QB pressures he provided was extremely high. If you judge him by his sack totals, you overrate him immensely. He was a solid rotation player.
2) I'm not sure he was good enough that he helped other players that much. For Jenkins, it's all about his health. He didn't have Williams early last year, and he played at Pro Bowl level before getting injured yet again. So, Jenkins appeared to be better without Williams.

[Zool]

1) His sacks compared to the number of QB pressures he provided was extremely high. If you judge him by his sack totals, you overrate him immensely. He was a solid rotation player.


Exactly. Its like a guy in baseball who for a 1-2 year span has a crazy high BA for balls in play. Meaning that an extremely high number of balls he makes contact with land in play. History has shown that number will eventually come back to earth and show how average the guy really is. Williams was an average player with really good stats for a couple years. Obviously with all the injuries last year he would have been good to have around, but the odds are his sack totals would have been pedestrian much like the second half of the '07 season when he was thrust into the starting position.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/gamelog?playerId=5704&sYear=2007

[texaspackerbacker]

The problem with too many around here is it's all or nothing.

Sure, Williams was a "good player". He just was not worth the money it would have taken to re-sign him. The "all" position--that he was worth the money is simply wrong; The "nothing" position--that he is total crap--is also just wrong.

Bottom line is that the trade Thompson made seemed like a good deal when it was made; It seemed like a better deal when Williams bombed in Cleveland; And hindsight about the series of injuries where Williams would have gotten more playing time in Green Bay doesn't diminish that; And the selection of Brohm with the pick--whether it turns out good or bad in the long run--is totally irrelevant to whether the trade was a good deal.

[Patler]

1) His sacks compared to the number of QB pressures he provided was extremely high. If you judge him by his sack totals, you overrate him immensely. He was a solid rotation player.


Exactly. Its like a guy in baseball who for a 1-2 year span has a crazy high BA for balls in play. Meaning that an extremely high number of balls he makes contact with land in play. History has shown that number will eventually come back to earth and show how average the guy really is. Williams was an average player with really good stats for a couple years. Obviously with all the injuries last year he would have been good to have around, but the odds are his sack totals would have been pedestrian much like the second half of the '07 season when he was thrust into the starting position.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/gamelog?playerId=5704&sYear=2007

You could argue that he "finished" better than the others :D

But, it is a legitimate question, best answered by looking at "pressures/snap". That looks at the total of sacks, knockdowns and hurries.

In 2006, Williams had 1 pressure for every 28.5 snaps. The leader was Jenkins at 1/15.5. Kampman was next at 1/17.7; Montgomery 1/19.7 and KGB 1/20.8. Following Williams' 1/28.5 was Pickett at 1/86 and Cole 1/89.3

2007 - KGB 1/13.2; Kampman 1/17.2; Jenkins 1/30, Williams 1/37; Jolly 1/66.8; Montgomery 1/105; Cole 1/130.

Did Williams provide pressure like the DEs? No, but would you have expected him to? It is apparent though that after Williams the pass rush ability of the others dropped significantly.

BTW - in response to Tex, I think Williams was a good player, brought value to the team. I also think, and stated, that Williams contract escalated beyond his value and the trade was the right thing to do. I think quite a few others have said as much, including Partial, who has at least waivered in whether or not Williams should have been kept at the price.

[Partial]

1) His sacks compared to the number of QB pressures he provided was extremely high. If you judge him by his sack totals, you overrate him immensely. He was a solid rotation player.


Exactly. Its like a guy in baseball who for a 1-2 year span has a crazy high BA for balls in play. Meaning that an extremely high number of balls he makes contact with land in play. History has shown that number will eventually come back to earth and show how average the guy really is. Williams was an average player with really good stats for a couple years. Obviously with all the injuries last year he would have been good to have around, but the odds are his sack totals would have been pedestrian much like the second half of the '07 season when he was thrust into the starting position.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/gamelog?playerId=5704&sYear=2007

Probably. That happens with most players when they're not fresh. Unless you're a superb performer, you're going to have a rough time when you're playing just about every snap. Note that Kampman has worn down at the end of seasons for three years straight now, and wasn't very effective at all this season at getting to the passer.

The guys that have the skills to get after the passer and play every down get paid the big bucks, like Peppers or Super Mario, or Tommie Harris(who has a significant injury history, but finding the consistent ability to get after the passer is worth the 10-12 mil he's going to get paid BEFORE he hits the open market)

[Partial]

My problem is too many people agree with me.

I've always held the opinion that Williams was crap, basically a 300lb KGB, good as a situational rusher and that's it. And was a black sheep for a long time for my view. When Jolly beat him out it was a sign that MM agreed with me too. Since then virtually everybody has come around.

Starters money for him is a joke.

Would you give Rodgers a 5 yr 150M contract?

That is akin to giving Williams 6.5M/yr.

He might be better than we have now, but you still don't give a guy worth 2-3M/yr two to three times as much just to stick around.

Williams was still a wonderful part to that group; what he added made Jenkins more effecive and vise versa. Was he a starter ? No. But he was much better than a reserve as well. He just found a sucker to pay him like a legit starter. As for Jolly, I'm not convinced his beating out Williams, so to speak...has shown me anything that leaves hope for calling Jolly a legitimate starter as well. They were all a good rotation. Colin Cole got 4 MIL per year. In today's market Williams is not a 2-3 million dollar player.
He's not worth 6 MIL either but IMO well over the 2-3 range. As I noted, I'm glad he went elsewhere. Never too fond of the Brohm pick though.
The homers IMO bag on him too much because TT chose to let him fly. Seeing Jolly play more has not convinced me he's any better, and CW definitely added more that guys like Cole and Montgomery.

Right, I tend to agree with this. His worth is determined by the market, not by us fans.

Also, I believe that Jolly started because he was the bigger and better run defender, and not nearly as good at rushing the passer.

Once the injuries started hitting the line and everyone was playing more

[3irty1]

My problem is too many people agree with me.

I've always held the opinion that Williams was crap, basically a 300lb KGB, good as a situational rusher and that's it. And was a black sheep for a long time for my view. When Jolly beat him out it was a sign that MM agreed with me too. Since then virtually everybody has come around.

Starters money for him is a joke.

Would you give Rodgers a 5 yr 150M contract?

That is akin to giving Williams 6.5M/yr.

He might be better than we have now, but you still don't give a guy worth 2-3M/yr two to three times as much just to stick around.

Williams was still a wonderful part to that group; what he added made Jenkins more effecive and vise versa. Was he a starter ? No. But he was much better than a reserve as well. He just found a sucker to pay him like a legit starter. As for Jolly, I'm not convinced his beating out Williams, so to speak...has shown me anything that leaves hope for calling Jolly a legitimate starter as well. They were all a good rotation. Colin Cole got 4 MIL per year. In today's market Williams is not a 2-3 million dollar player.
He's not worth 6 MIL either but IMO well over the 2-3 range. As I noted, I'm glad he went elsewhere. Never too fond of the Brohm pick though.
The homers IMO bag on him too much because TT chose to let him fly. Seeing Jolly play more has not convinced me he's any better, and CW definitely added more that guys like Cole and Montgomery.

Right, I tend to agree with this. His worth is determined by the market, not by us fans.

Also, I believe that Jolly started because he was the bigger and better run defender, and not nearly as good at rushing the passer.

Once the injuries started hitting the line and everyone was playing more

Ditto.

That said I think Jolly is the better player overall. He holds his ground better against the run and although he's not as slippery inside he gets a good enough push to complicate things and has a knack for getting his hands up and batting shit down.

Hopefully a healthier Cullen Jenkins in 2009 will make us forget about what CW did as a Packer.

[Zool]

1) His sacks compared to the number of QB pressures he provided was extremely high. If you judge him by his sack totals, you overrate him immensely. He was a solid rotation player.


Exactly. Its like a guy in baseball who for a 1-2 year span has a crazy high BA for balls in play. Meaning that an extremely high number of balls he makes contact with land in play. History has shown that number will eventually come back to earth and show how average the guy really is. Williams was an average player with really good stats for a couple years. Obviously with all the injuries last year he would have been good to have around, but the odds are his sack totals would have been pedestrian much like the second half of the '07 season when he was thrust into the starting position.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/gamelog?playerId=5704&sYear=2007

Probably. That happens with most players when they're not fresh. Unless you're a superb performer, you're going to have a rough time when you're playing just about every snap. Note that Kampman has worn down at the end of seasons for three years straight now, and wasn't very effective at all this season at getting to the passer.

The guys that have the skills to get after the passer and play every down get paid the big bucks, like Peppers or Super Mario, or Tommie Harris(who has a significant injury history, but finding the consistent ability to get after the passer is worth the 10-12 mil he's going to get paid BEFORE he hits the open market)

My point is that he's being paid big dollars to be very average now. He's a really good guy to have in a rotation at the right price but at his current cost, its not a good investment.

[Bretsky]

1) His sacks compared to the number of QB pressures he provided was extremely high. If you judge him by his sack totals, you overrate him immensely. He was a solid rotation player.


Exactly. Its like a guy in baseball who for a 1-2 year span has a crazy high BA for balls in play. Meaning that an extremely high number of balls he makes contact with land in play. History has shown that number will eventually come back to earth and show how average the guy really is. Williams was an average player with really good stats for a couple years. Obviously with all the injuries last year he would have been good to have around, but the odds are his sack totals would have been pedestrian much like the second half of the '07 season when he was thrust into the starting position.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/gamelog?playerId=5704&sYear=2007

Probably. That happens with most players when they're not fresh. Unless you're a superb performer, you're going to have a rough time when you're playing just about every snap. Note that Kampman has worn down at the end of seasons for three years straight now, and wasn't very effective at all this season at getting to the passer.

The guys that have the skills to get after the passer and play every down get paid the big bucks, like Peppers or Super Mario, or Tommie Harris(who has a significant injury history, but finding the consistent ability to get after the passer is worth the 10-12 mil he's going to get paid BEFORE he hits the open market)

My point is that he's being paid big dollars to be very average now. He's a really good guy to have in a rotation at the right price but at his current cost, its not a good investment.


Colin Cole is getting paid over 4MIL per year; I think CW contract over the years was 6.5MIL per year. I wonder what his real value is in todays' market ?

Before this year I'd have said 4 MIL but now I'm not sure anymore.

[Partial]

6.5 isn't bad considering he's leaps and bounds better than Cole all around, and very solid as a pass rusher. Both are overpaid, but relative to Cole, Williams is a pretty good deal imo.

[Joemailman]

So....what are the chances that Brian Orakpo will be available when the Packers pick?

[texaspackerbacker]

So....what are the chances that Brian Orakpo will be available when the Packers pick?

Probably better than a lot of people think, as Orakpo isn't as good as a lot of people seem to think.

Hopefully, Thompson isn't even tempted to go in that direction--not for Orakpo, not even for the position he plays.

[Lurker64]

I think, quite probably, Thompson has Maybin higher on his board than Orakpo.

[Joemailman]

The fact that Maybin was below 230 in January before beefing up makes me a little nervous. Can he keep the weight on? Does he have the frame to support the extra weight? We don't need another Jamal (Too Small) Reynolds. I'd feel better with Everette Brown or Orakpo, or hope to get Sintim in round 2.

[bobblehead]

The fact that Maybin was below 230 in January before beefing up makes me a little nervous. Can he keep the weight on? Does he have the frame to support the extra weight? We don't need another Jamal (Too Small) Reynolds. I'd feel better with Everette Brown or Orakpo, or hope to get Sintim in round 2.

Depends...did he use Anavar or Nandrolone?? Guys that use anavar tend to keep the gains much better.

[Lurker64]

The fact that Maybin was below 230 in January before beefing up makes me a little nervous. Can he keep the weight on? Does he have the frame to support the extra weight? We don't need another Jamal (Too Small) Reynolds. I'd feel better with Everette Brown or Orakpo, or hope to get Sintim in round 2.

I think the fact that when Maybin gained a bunch of weight, he actually got faster and improved both his vert and his broad point to the fact the probably just didn't have a very good training regimen or diet beforehand. With some professional advice and a full time training regimen, he's bigger, faster, and stronger. Maybin is in every way a better prospect than Brown immediately, and almost certainly better than Orakpo longterm.

There were never any concerns about his frame, since one of his biggest assets was that he had an amazing frame (tall, great wingspan) etc. The concern was that whether he would retain his speed and quickness when he grows into that frame, and the fact that he gained weight and got faster at the same time points to the fact that he can, in fact, do so.

[Partial]

How is he better than Orakpo? Orakpo was way more productive, and is strong as an ox. No weight concerns with Orakpo. Maybin... maybe.

Top 10 is too high. He's a good athlete so 25-30 I'd consider taking him. I haven't seen him play a lot, but I'm just not feelin' it.

[Waldo]

How is he better than Orakpo? Orakpo was way more productive, and is strong as an ox. No weight concerns with Orakpo. Maybin... maybe.

Top 10 is too high. He's a good athlete so 25-30 I'd consider taking him. I haven't seen him play a lot, but I'm just not feelin' it.

Do you think before you write?

2008:
Maybin - 49 tackles, 30 solo, 12 Sacks, 20 TFL's, 3FF's, 3 PD's
Orakpo - 40 tackles, 32 solo, 12 Sacks, 17.5 TFL's, 4 FF's, 2 PD's

Way more productive. :lol:

Orakpo is just as injury prone as Harrell. Heck he even got hurt running at the combine.

[Bretsky]

So....what are the chances that Brian Orakpo will be available when the Packers pick?\

I'd say 50-50 at best; and I'd be glad to have him if he was there

[Partial]

How is he better than Orakpo? Orakpo was way more productive, and is strong as an ox. No weight concerns with Orakpo. Maybin... maybe.

Top 10 is too high. He's a good athlete so 25-30 I'd consider taking him. I haven't seen him play a lot, but I'm just not feelin' it.

Do you think before you write?

2008:
Maybin - 49 tackles, 30 solo, 12 Sacks, 20 TFL's, 3FF's, 3 PD's
Orakpo - 40 tackles, 32 solo, 12 Sacks, 17.5 TFL's, 4 FF's, 2 PD's

Way more productive. :lol:

Orakpo is just as injury prone as Harrell. Heck he even got hurt running at the combine.

I didn't know of the injury history, but Maybin is a one year starter, correct? It's my understanding that Orakpo has had 4 years with significant playing time and great success, including DFOY.

TT really loved Hawk. Orakpo is the same type of 4 year player, workout warrior, etc.

[Joemailman]

Orakpo missed 4 games in 2007 due to a right knee injury. He missed 1.5 games in 2008 due to a knee sprain. Not sure if it was the same knee.

[Lurker64]

I didn't know of the injury history, but Maybin is a one year starter, correct? It's my understanding that Orakpo has had 4 years with significant playing time and great success, including DFOY.

TT really loved Hawk. Orakpo is the same type of 4 year player, workout warrior, etc.

Honestly, given your love of ridiculous athletes (c.f. Vince Young), I'm surprised you're not higher on Maybin. The kid has some sick athleticism and is just coming into his physical prime (he'll be 21 in April). Assuming he's clean of the juice (which is plausible, considering how young he is, and considering that what he recently just bulked up to is about the high range of his playing weight this season.) His ceiling is a mile high, he could easily be Terrell Suggs or better.

As per Orakpo's injury history, he missed playing time in 2008 due to a knee injury, he missed four games in 2007 due to a knee injury, and he missed 1/3 of his senior season in high school due to... you guessed it, a knee injury! He also got hurt at the combine. You worry about how much he'll actually see the field. He's a team leader, high effort, high character guy with all the physical tools in the world... but so was Harrell.

I've had enough high character, high effort, team leader guys with all the physical tools in the world but with a troubling injury history. It would be nice to get a guy who's a sick athlete with a mile high ceiling, even though he might not be quite as safe of a pick.

[Partial]

I really don't see where Maybin is the better athlete than Orakpo. I would like you to show me some evidence of this, as I have not done the research. I could get behind that, ala Bill Shattner.

[Bretsky]

I have a sick feeling we're getting the OT with character/work ethic concerns anyways.

[Lurker64]

I really don't see where Maybin is the better athlete than Orakpo. I would like you to show me some evidence of this, as I have not done the research. I could get behind that, ala Bill Shattner.

Full Comparison of their measurables:

40 yard dash.
Orakpo: 4.70
Mayin: 4.59

10 yard split:
Orakpo: 1.58"
Maybin 1.55"

Vert:
Orakpo: 39.5"
Maybin: 40.5"

Broad:
Orakpo: 10'-10"
Maybin: 10'-10"

Arm Length:
Maybin: 35 3/4"
Orakpo: 35"

Short Shuttle:
Orakpo: 4.45
Maybin: 4.38

3-Cone
Orakpo: 7.26
Maybin: 7.52

Bench:
Orakpo: 31
Maybin: 22

Height:
Orakpo: 6'3"
Maybin: 6'4"

Weight:
Orakpo: 263
Maybin: 252

Now take into account that Orakpo is 22, and Maybin is 20. Orakpo is close to maxed out, Maybin is far, far from it. Either would be reasonable picks, but Maybin has a higher ceiling and no troubling injury history. Maybin also has a much better first step.

[Partial]

Maybin ran a 4.9ish at the combine I thought.

Otherwise, they look about even, but it does look to me that Orakpo is better laterally judging from the 3 cone drill, which will help him in coverage.

[Lurker64]

Maybin ran a 4.9ish at the combine I thought.

Otherwise, they look about even, but it does look to me that Orakpo is better laterally judging from the 3 cone drill, which will help him in coverage.

He ran a 4.89 at 225 at the combine and 4.59 at 252 at his pro day, after a considerable workout regimen.

The things to keep in mind are that:
a) Maybin is far from physically maxed out, Orakpo is close to it.
b) Maybin's first step is ridiculous, it's faster than Brown's and more explosive than Orakpo's.
c) Maybin has no injury history, Orakpo has recurring knee problems. He was a starter for 2 years, and missed games in both of them due to that knee.
d) Maybin dropped back into zone coverage frequently at Penn State, and was good at it. He was decisive, got into his zone in a hurry, and could change directions very well to adjust to misdirection. Orakpo was much less fluid and decisive in space, and did less of it in Texas. Orakpo is more indecisive, less aware, and less instinctive in space, he has more to learn in order to play coverage. Maybin has much less to learn, he just has some growing to do.

[Waldo]

You hit on a key word that describes Maybin, decisive. It is a very good trait to have. I noticed that as well about him, and it is a stark contrast, to Orakpo. In fact it is because of Orakpo's lack of that that PFT wrote a piece, basically saying that some scouts that left Orakpo's pro day questioning whether Orakpo was a football player, or just a good athlete going through the motions, that he did not show to be a decisive, instinctive player to scouts.

That is Hawk and Kampman's biggest weakness, and what made Hodge look so good at times. He made up his mind fast, and did it, right or wrong.

[Waldo]

Maybin ran a 4.9ish at the combine I thought.

Otherwise, they look about even, but it does look to me that Orakpo is better laterally judging from the 3 cone drill, which will help him in coverage.

He ran a 4.89 at 225 at the combine and 4.59 at 252 at his pro day, after a considerable workout regimen.

The things to keep in mind are that:
a) Maybin is far from physically maxed out, Orakpo is close to it.
b) Maybin's first step is ridiculous, it's faster than Brown's and more explosive than Orakpo's.
c) Maybin has no injury history, Orakpo has recurring knee problems. He was a starter for 2 years, and missed games in both of them due to that knee.
d) Maybin dropped back into zone coverage frequently at Penn State, and was good at it. He was decisive, got into his zone in a hurry, and could change directions very well to adjust to misdirection. Orakpo was much less fluid and decisive in space, and did less of it in Texas. Orakpo is more indecisive, less aware, and less instinctive in space, he has more to learn in order to play coverage. Maybin has much less to learn, he just has some growing to do.

Maybin's corrected combine time is 4.78. They had to use the hand clocks for Maybin as the electronic times were way off from the stopwatches. NFLDS lists the hand clocks from this combine, they threw out the electronic times because of how inconsistent they were this year. Same as the vert last year, basically the official combine results were garbage. There is no official time from the combine, each team is given 6 times, in addition to any they may clock themselves. Two runs, two hand times and an electronic for each one are provided to the teams. Each has their own method of extracting a time. I'm not sure which one NFLDS uses, but they use the hand clock times for this combine, they were more accurate.

[Lurker64]

I think also the "one year wonder" tag is applied to Maybin, perhaps erroneously. Maybin was born in April of 1988, and came to Penn State in 2006 when he Redshirted, which is reasonable because he was 18 at the time. In the 2007 season, at the age of 19, he still managed to play in every single game on both defense and special teams. His junior year, the most recent one, he finally cracked the starting lineup and he became an all American with 12 sacks and 20 TFL. He didn't dominate before then, because the 2007 season was his very first year after his redshirt year and very few defensive lineman dominate as redshirt freshmen, particularly at 19 years old.

If Maybin had gone back to Penn State and continued to improve, he probably would have been looked at as the very best defensive player in the 2009 or 2010 draft, and a candidate for #1 overall, no joke. If you draft him now, you get him when he's very, very raw but you can pay him much less and get him with a much lower draft pick. Remember, young defensive line guys who are already productive, can become ridiculously productive once they finish growing. If y'all remember correctly, that's why a lot of us wanted Okoye, who's becoming an important part of a very scary Texans Defensive line.

The WOLB is the star, key cog, and most important pass rusher in the 3-4 defense (at least the brand we run) and we don't really have one. It's worth taking a shot on a guy who can be out of this world in a year or two.

[Waldo]

I talk to another scout elsewhere, one rule of thumb he goes by, that he claims others (including most pro team scouts) do as well, is first tape is just as important as the last, especially on the OL and DL. The guys that really are special, who are born to do it, can play from the day they step on campus and look good at a very young age.

You have to question how raw one of the NCAA's most productive rusher's and DE's is. Sure he needs tech work I'm sure, they all do, and he may be a smidge behind the other guys in that arena, but he is still just as productive as they were. How raw can he really be?

[Partial]

See DFOY Orakpo :D

Maybin does sound like he has a lot of potential. Wouldn't be too upset over that pick, I guess.

[TheCheese]

My guy English had his pro day on the 27th, heres a little update below.


Northern Illinois held its pro day this afternoon at the DeKalb Sports and Recreation Center in front of 15 NFL teams.

Defensive end Larry English ran the 40-yard dash and the 60-yard shuttle. He also participated in the broad jump and did positional drills. English said his fastest time according to one scout was 4.62 seconds and his slowest time according to another scout was 4.75 seconds. English ran the 40 in 4.77 seconds at the NFL Combine.

English said he improved on everything from the combine. He also revealed that he scored a 34 on the Wonderlic test.

Wide receiver Matt Simon ran the 40 in 4.48 seconds and said he was pleased with how the day went for him. Simon also had former NIU quarterback Dan Nicholson throwing him passes.

Britt Davis, Melvin Rice, Bradley Pruitt, Brandon Beal, Chase Carter, Alex Krutsch and Andy Dittbenner also participated in pro day. Former Huskies Brandon Davis and Chris Nendick also were there, along with a few small college players.

There were 15 NFL teams in attendance, including the Bears. The Carolina Panthers had three representatitves there. Carolina's first pick in the NFL draft is in the second round, No. 59 overall. Below is the list of all the NFL teams at DeKalb today:

Baltimore Ravens, Pittsburgh Steelers, Houston Texans, Indianapolis Colts, Jacksonville Jaguars, Buffalo Bills, Carolina Panthers, Denver Broncos, Chicago Bears, Detroit Lions, Green Bay Packers, Atlanta Falcons, New Orleans Saints, Tampa Bay Buccaneers and San Francisco 49ers. The New York Giants are scheduled to come out to scout English next week.

There is so many damn directions we could go with our 9th pick it's not even funny. The one I hope the most we do is trade back in the first round and draft English. If we don't I hope we get a hell of a player at 9.

[wist43]

I don't trust Maybin or Brown, and while Orakpo is my preference, his injury history is a bit of a concern... English I'm okay with to this point, but that would be in a trade down.

In the end, TT will likely go in a completely different direction... I'd be okay with Crabtree or Macklin, or if one of the OT's fell, sans Smith from Bama.

[Dylan McKay]

I think if Crabtree fell to 9 or if the linebacker from Wake Forest fall to 9 I would be happy with either of those two, but other than that I ain't sold on anyone else at 9. A trade down would make the most sense, but what do I know, I am a member, a lowly member on a forum, I ain't no Jerry Jones.

[wist43]

While Curry may be the best LB on the board, he is what he is... a chase and tackle guy. As I've said b/4, and others have pointed out, his major weakness is pass rushing... which is our primary need.

Curry won't drop to us though.

[RashanGary]

I'm not a big Orakpo fan. He's stiff, plays high and can't really round the corner in college. Oh yeah, and wasn't very productive in college.

YOu'd think a guy who's can't threaten the edge would be powerful enough to bull rush or mix it up inside, but he can't really do that either.

Looks like Tarzan. Plays like Jane.



I don't know much about Maybin. I tend to like pass rushers that can use their hands well and really get low to pry or twist their way through a blocker. Everything I read abotu Maybin, he doesn't get low and isn't great at using his hands. They say he runs right by blockers, which sounds great except that he'll never be doing that on the next level. He's tough for me to judge because I've never seen him play. If he's good at coverage and decent at rushing the passer, maybe. I just don't know enough.

My favorite pass rusher is Everette Brown. He attacks OT's like an NFL pass rusher. He comes with a aggression and determination, has great hands for a college player and excels in prying through a blocker more so than running around him. If you think Brown can cover flats and curls, he has to be considered the best 3-4 OLB in this draft. If he's not an every down player, I feel strongly that he'll rack up a good number of sacks in the NFL as a specialist in either a 3-4 or 4-3.

[Partial]

Orakpo wasn't productive in college? You mean like being named the best defensive linemen and defensive player in the country as a senior, and a freshman of the year?

[RashanGary]

Low sack and TFL totals.

More hype than substance.

[rbaloha1]

According to the most recent Sporting News, if TT keeps #9 slot in keeping with best player available TT may select Andre Smith or the OSU te Pettigrew.

My knee jerk reaction to Smith was to stay away. But after reading articles about his religious background, Smith is just immature and not a bad kid like Clarett. Too good to pass up. Same with Pettigrew --too good to pass up.

TT may be bluffing on Orakpo. Recall Hawk was surprised by the Packers selection since he had virtually no contact prior to the draft.

[Lurker64]

I don't know much about Maybin. I tend to like pass rushers that can use their hands well and really get low to pry or twist their way through a blocker. Everything I read abotu Maybin, he doesn't get low and isn't great at using his hands. They say he runs right by blockers, which sounds great except that he'll never be doing that on the next level. He's tough for me to judge because I've never seen him play. If he's good at coverage and decent at rushing the passer, maybe. I just don't know enough.

My favorite pass rusher is Everette Brown. He attacks OT's like an NFL pass rusher. He comes with a aggression and determination, has great hands for a college player and excels in prying through a blocker more so than running around him. If you think Brown can cover flats and curls, he has to be considered the best 3-4 OLB in this draft. If he's not an every down player, I feel strongly that he'll rack up a good number of sacks in the NFL as a specialist in either a 3-4 or 4-3.

The thing to look at here is that Everette Brown has a year's more experience perfecting his craft as a pass-rusher than Maybin, and he was barely more productive:

Brown: 21.5 TFL, 13.5 Sacks (0-fer in 7/12 games), 29 solo tackles, 2 passes defensed, 3 forced fumbles.
Maybin: 20 TFLs, 12 sacks, (0-fer in 4/12 games), 30 solo tackles, 3 passes defensed, and 3 forced fumbles.

Now consider that Maybin was up against superior competition, considering that the Big Ten has many warts, but one thing it is still outstanding at is "producing offensive linemen". The ACC just has a lot of warts, being one of the weakest conferences in college football this season.

Most of the problems with Maybin are that his technique is raw and unpolished, which is reasonable since he's a redshirt sophomore and 20 years old. But he's a very hard worker and driven to self-improvement, and technique can be learned. Maybin's instincts are top notch, and he's much better in coverage than Brown. If with raw, unpolished technique Maybin is just as productive as Brown (who by all accounts, has excellent technique), what's the competition going to be when Maybin polishes his technique?

Also, consider their relative levels of athleticism (taking each player's best time from either pro day or combine):

40 yard dash.
Brown: 4.66
Maybin: 4.59

10 yard split:
Brown: 1.59"
Maybin 1.55"

Vert:
Brown: 34"
Maybin: 40.5"

Broad:
Brown: 9'-9"
Maybin: 10'-10"

Arm Length:
Maybin: 35 3/4"
Brown: 33"

Short Shuttle:
Brown: 4.53
Maybin: 4.38

3-Cone
Brown: 7.55
Maybin: 7.52

Bench:
Brown: 29
Maybin: 22

Height:
Brown: 6'2"
Maybin: 6'4"

Weight:
Brown: 256
Maybin: 252

Maybin has the edge in every test, except the bench, and while Maybin's is reasonable, the discrepancy is easly attributed to Brown having spent a year more of his life in the weight room, and Maybin's ridiculously long arms. The fact that Maybin has a 6" advantage in the vert and a 13" advantage in the broad is very significant from an "evaluating pass rushers" perspective, since those numbers measure lower body explosion which is incredibly important for pass rushers.

[mission]

OSU te Pettigrew.

Are you serious? Talk about overrated hype! I can get down with the A.Smith pick, I think he'll turn out just fine ... but I caught two OSU games this year and the guy dropped 4-5 passes that I can remember. Physical specimen with rock hard hands. I don't get the hype. He doesn't look like a football player ... just a beast.

[Lurker64]

OSU te Pettigrew.

Are you serious? Talk about overrated hype! I can get down with the A.Smith pick, I think he'll turn out just fine ... but I caught two OSU games this year and the guy dropped 4-5 passes that I can remember. Physical specimen with rock hard hands. I don't get the hype. He doesn't look like a football player ... just a beast.

Pettigrew at 9 is an amazing reach, for a player we don't need. Finley may already be a better receiving threat, and you don't draft a blocking TE in the top 10. Plus, the odds of Finley improving as a blocker and maturing as a route runner are worlds better than the odds of Pettigrew becoming fast and learning how to catch.

Plus, Pettigrew has hands of stone, he drops everything, and the one common factor for virtually all the receivers and TEs Thompson has drafted is that they can catch. Jordy Nelson, great hands; Jermichael Finley, great hands; Brett Swain, good hands; James Jones, great hands; David Clowney, great hands; Clark Harris, decent hands; Greg Jennings, great hands; Terrence Murphy, great hands; Craig Bragg, decent hands.

The one notable exception is Cory Rodgers, who was cut very early in TC and was drafted primarily as a punt returner. You'll notice that all the guys who have anything less than "great hands" (Harris, Bragg, Rodgers), didn't even make the roster and were late round picks.

0% chance Thompson takes Pettigrew.

About Andre Smith, my being okay with the pick is contingent on Thompson and the rest of the scouts being okay with the pick. That is to say "if they pick A. Smith, I wouldn't be too upset since I trust their ability to evaluate talent more than mine" , but I'm not going to come out and argue that it's a good pick. For one thing, a lot of the knocks about him are that he's a knucklehead... but Thompson has talked to him, while I haven't.

[Waldo]

What about the POV.....

Say you knew you had to give 5M/yr to a guy, what guy in the draft (aside from the top 5 picks) would you feel most confident giving it to, that he wouldn't let you down on or off the field?

[Joemailman]

Who are the top 5 picks?

[Waldo]

J. Smith, E. Monroe, A. Curry, B. Orakpo, and M. Stafford almost surely without a doubt will be gone by our pick. Raji and A. Smith are fairly doubtful as well.

[PlantPage55]

The Vegas line for the Packers first pick is 20:1 for "The Field"

4:1 for Orakpo and 7:1 for Raji

I'm thinking seriously about putting a 20 spot on that. Aaron Maybin, baby. ;)

[Joemailman]

Unlike a lot of people around here, I like Everette Brown. He didn't need to hire a trainer and go on a special diet to get his weight in the 250's like Maybin. He doesnt have the injury history of Orakpo. He's just a damn good football player who keeps getting better. 3 sacks in 2006, 6 in 2007, 13 in 2008.

[Partial]

Unlike a lot of people around here, I like Everette Brown. He didn't need to hire a trainer and go on a special diet to get his weight in the 250's like Maybin. He doesnt have the injury history of Orakpo. He's just a damn good football player who keeps getting better. 3 sacks in 2006, 6 in 2007, 13 in 2008.

Manhandled by a Badger tight end in 2009!!

[Joemailman]

2 tackles, 1 sack in a 42-13 win. he was probably bored playing a team like Wisconsin.

[RashanGary]

Maybin has the edge in every test, except the bench, and while Maybin's is reasonable, the discrepancy is easly attributed to Brown having spent a year more of his life in the weight room, and Maybin's ridiculously long arms. The fact that Maybin has a 6" advantage in the vert and a 13" advantage in the broad is very significant from an "evaluating pass rushers" perspective, since those numbers measure lower body explosion which is incredibly important for pass rushers.


I'm open to this guy being better. I haven't seen any of his sacks. It's tough for me to gauge.

You make a good point about the Big 10 OL. The other point for Maybin is his advanced coverage skills. They say he played quite a bit of coverage at Penn State and did very well in his zone responsibilities.

I don't know enough about him, but maybe you are right. Maybe he's the guy. I wouldn't be surprised if he was a great pro, I just don't know much about him.

[Partial]

The word I would use is exhausted, not bored.