Our backup NTs

[Lurker64]

What are the odds we get anything out of Anthony Toribio or Fred Bledsoe this year? A lot of us believe that if we don't draft Raji (more likely than unlikely) we should pick up a backup NT prospect to develop behind Pickett in the later rounds, which is a sound decision since in a lot of ways the best way to develop a NT is to draft a guy with sufficient quickness and the frame to grow and get the guy a gift certificate to Old Country Buffet and a key to the weight room.

Both Toribio and Bledsoe were signed as UDFAs last year, and both have stuck with the team so far. So they've both had at least a year of buffets and weights under their belts, but are they anything close to ready (or are they LNFLT guys to begin with?)? I know Bledsoe comes from the SEC so he's faced a high degree of talent already and by all accounts didn't embarass himself. Toribio hails from division II Carson-Newman, but did get signed as a UDFA by the Dolphins and later claimed by the Packers after the Dolphins cut him, so he has to have enough potential for two NFL teams to take a good look at him.

I've never seen either of these guys play a snap though, so I'm not sure if we have anything here. Anybody know if they could potentially be counted on, either in this year or a couple years down the line? Both guys seem to be pure NTs at 6'1", so it would take a stretch for either to make the roster unless nobody is drafted at that position (3-4 teams usually keep 1 NT, 1 backup NT, and 1 swing tackle who can play both DE and NT (that would probably be Harrell for us)).

[SnakeLH2006]

What are the odds we get anything out of Anthony Toribio or Fred Bledsoe this year? A lot of us believe that if we don't draft Raji (more likely than unlikely) we should pick up a backup NT prospect to develop behind Pickett in the later rounds, which is a sound decision since in a lot of ways the best way to develop a NT is to draft a guy with sufficient quickness and the frame to grow and get the guy a gift certificate to Old Country Buffet and a key to the weight room.

Both Toribio and Bledsoe were signed as UDFAs last year, and both have stuck with the team so far. So they've both had at least a year of buffets and weights under their belts, but are they anything close to ready (or are they LNFLT guys to begin with?)? I know Bledsoe comes from the SEC so he's faced a high degree of talent already and by all accounts didn't embarass himself. Toribio hails from division II Carson-Newman, but did get signed as a UDFA by the Dolphins and later claimed by the Packers after the Dolphins cut him, so he has to have enough potential for two NFL teams to take a good look at him.

I've never seen either of these guys play a snap though, so I'm not sure if we have anything here. Anybody know if they could potentially be counted on, either in this year or a couple years down the line? Both guys seem to be pure NTs at 6'1", so it would take a stretch for either to make the roster unless nobody is drafted at that position (3-4 teams usually keep 1 NT, 1 backup NT, and 1 swing tackle who can play both DE and NT (that would probably be Harrell for us)).

Nil...both those guys are project guys that take a long time to develop. How many of these guys with "no snaps" other than rooks contribute much if any other than ST? None. Snake expects both are cut early in camp as I'm sure TT's trade down goldmine nets us about 5 DL rooks whether it be draft picks or rook FA's that stick. I pray we get a nice BJ, but when's the last time TT gave us what we wanted on draft day?

[KYPack]

This is what the NFL Post had on NT prospects:

Nose Tackles

B.J. Raji, Boston College (6-2, 337)
Ron Brace, Boston College (6-3, 330)
Dorell Scott, Clemson (6-3, 312)
Chris Baker, Hampton (6-2, 326)
Roy Miller, Texas (6-1, 310)
Sammie Lee Hill, Stillman (6-4, 329)
Vaughn Martin, Western Ontario (6-3, 331)
Myron Pryor, Kentucky (6-0, 319)
Terrance Taylor, Michigan (6-0, 306)
Antonio Dixon, Miami (6-3, 324)

Pryor from KY is way too small to be a 3-4 NT. Kid's got a vicious motor, but he's not NFL size, yet.

[texaspackerbacker]

Backup NT is one of very very few actual NEEDS that the Packers have.

I don't think Toribio or Bledsoe amount to anything. Harrell would be my candidate among what we have to rotate with Pickett. I like the idea of Brace in the second round; If not that, it's very possible Thompson can find somebody decent in the 3rd - 5th. I like the idea of getting Roy Miller from Killeen, Texas--where I live--and the U.T. Longhorns.

[Waldo]

Actually early in camp several Dolphins fans thought that Toribio had a legit shot to make the team. Made it to the PS, if injuries wouldn't have caused a PS shakeup they probably would have kept him.

I get the sense Bill P tried to steal Lansanah as retaliation for our stealing Toribio, that Toribio was a cut and resign move for them and we snagged him while on the street. (we signed him to our PS almost immediately after being cut).

He was actually signed to our active roster late last year. Must have been a little something there.

[Lurker64]

Pryor from KY is way too small to be a 3-4 NT. Kid's got a vicious motor, but he's not NFL size, yet.

He's 6'0 319, and a couple of the taller guys ranked ahead of him are lighter. What do you expect him to do? Get taller?

[Waldo]

Pryor from KY is way too small to be a 3-4 NT. Kid's got a vicious motor, but he's not NFL size, yet.

He's 6'0 319, and a couple of the taller guys ranked ahead of him are lighter. What do you expect him to do? Get taller?

I don't know how many times I've tried to explain this, it's how they play, not how much they weight. Pit and NE both have 300lb backup NT's. An A gap tackle is an A gap tackle, if they are good at it, they can do it. The mass is more important for the starter, they can loaf a bit and use their weight to augment their muscles, in order to sustain a whole game.

[Lurker64]

Pryor from KY is way too small to be a 3-4 NT. Kid's got a vicious motor, but he's not NFL size, yet.

He's 6'0 319, and a couple of the taller guys ranked ahead of him are lighter. What do you expect him to do? Get taller?

I don't know how many times I've tried to explain this, it's how they play, not how much they weight. Pit and NE both have 300lb backup NT's. An A gap tackle is an A gap tackle, if they are good at it, they can do it. The mass is more important for the starter, they can loaf a bit and use their weight to augment their muscles, in order to sustain a whole game.

I was just dubious by what standards Pryor was not yet "NFL Size". He may not be strong enough, or technique perfect enough to play in the NFL, but he certainly looks big enough.

[Waldo]

This season Harrell>Raji at NT without question. Harrell noticeably improved against doubles last year and can anchor fine, he's show that he can handle a consistent double at the NFL level, something that he couldn't do early his rookie year, and doubtful that Raji could either. Yet he doesn't weigh 340. I doubt he could sustain it for 30 snaps a game, but for 10-15 or so, he's fine.

How they play not how much they weight.

Pryor has a ton of natural leverage. His smaller size makes it hard to get under him. He naturally has "good pad level".

[SnakeLH2006]

This season Harrell>Raji at NT without question. Harrell noticeably improved against doubles last year and can anchor fine, he's show that he can handle a consistent double at the NFL level, something that he couldn't do early his rookie year, and doubtful that Raji could either. Yet he doesn't weigh 340. I doubt he could sustain it for 30 snaps a game, but for 10-15 or so, he's fine.

How they play not how much they weight.

Pryor has a ton of natural leverage. His smaller size makes it hard to get under him. He naturally has "good pad level".

That's fine and all, but Snake is confused and needs clarification. Waldo, are you willing to stand by that claim that Harrell will have a better 2009 than Raji? I'm floored, but please elaborate.

Harrell might do well, if EVER healthy, but BJ is ready to play (and several top pick DT's do well) unlike Harrell. Yeah, he was/is/and is ALWAYS hurt, but Snake's chips are on Raji till proven otherwise. Quite the bold claim though, sir.

[Lurker64]

That's fine and all, but Snake is confused and needs clarification. Waldo, are you willing to stand by that claim that Harrell will have a better 2009 than Raji? I'm floored, but please elaborate.

I'm not Waldo, but I think I know this one. The key difference between Harrell and Raji at this point is that Harrell has 13 games of NFL experience while Raji has 0. One of the key adjustments that defensive tackles need to make in coming to the pros is that DTs in college rarely face double teams, most of the time the elite DTs just have to beat their man one on one through natural physical ability and they can do just fine. But in the NFL, defensive tackles will face a chip or or a double team consistently, and the ones with the best physical talent will command one on almost every play. This is the reason why almost no DTs are effective as DTs in their rookie season. they need to learn to handle the double team. Harrell struggled with it as a rookie, Dorsey struggled with it as a rookie, Okoye struggled with it as a rookie, Ryan Pickett struggled with it as a rookie, basically go down the entire list and you'll find that virtually every hot DT prospect had issues with a double team as a rookie. It's only something you learn how to handle from experience, the experience of going up against a situation where you simply cannot win through pure physical ability. Raji's going to have trouble with this too.

Now, Harrell's 7 games last year wasn't entirely encouraging, but one encouraging thing we did see is that unlike in his rookie year, Harrell could hold the point against a double-team. So presumably he will not have forgotten how to do this in the meantime.

Basically, in 2009 one-on-one Raji may be better than Harrell, but when double-teamed Harrell is going to be a lot better than Raji since he has 13 games of NFL experience on Raji. Since you can make Raji a lot less effective by putting two blockers on him, expect a lot of teams to do that this year.

[Waldo]

Everybody goes gaga over prospects on draft day. The fact is Harrell is a 3rd year football player, has had a lot of NFL coaching, has played a couple hundred NFL snaps, and has lined up closer to 0 tech than anybody on the roster in the last 2 years. Raji has barely played in the A gap, even as a college player, he was more of a B gap player. Brace was the guy that got doubled in the run. Brace is the guy that played agaisnt the natural leverage of centers. Raji is not a polished player yet. He's definitely a year or two away from being a reliable man in the middle. It is projected that he can handle doubles agaisnt the run based on his measurables. He's barely had to do it.

Aside from health, Harrell has shown that he can take doubles, anchor, shed and flow to the play, to naturally let the blocking take you to the ball, at the NFL level. He was an A gap tackle his whole college career. Harrell showed great improvement between his first and second years in technique. As a rookie he played his man. As a 2nd year player he played his gaps, no matter who blocked him, and was generally doubled in the run. He learned to square up, move and shed laterally, and keep his pads down, what is needed to handle double blocks. His finest attribute has always been his football sense, kid has a feel for where a play is going. You just can't teach that. That's why he's been such a high tackle/snap guy his whole time in GB.

[KYPack]

Actually early in camp several Dolphins fans thought that Toribio had a legit shot to make the team. Made it to the PS, if injuries wouldn't have caused a PS shakeup they probably would have kept him.

I get the sense Bill P tried to steal Lansanah as retaliation for our stealing Toribio, that Toribio was a cut and resign move for them and we snagged him while on the street. (we signed him to our PS almost immediately after being cut).

He was actually signed to our active roster late last year. Must have been a little something there.

There was a whole deal going on with Miami last season.

First Bill P & his minions signed that kid, Haynos, a good young TE off our practice squad. TT tried to bribe Haynos with some extra $ to stay on our PS. Haynos correctly signed with the Dolphins, to their active roster.

10 days or so later, Miami approached Lansanah to sign with em off our PS (again). This time TT realized the bribe 'em trick wouldn't work and signed Lansanah to our active roster. To make room, the Packers cut Tracy White. White wasn't much of a position player, but he was an ST terror.

Lansanah? he didn't much of anything. So TT lost two guys who could play and kept the kid with potential, who didn't do much.

Lesson learned, I guess, is don't mess with Bill the Tuna

[SnakeLH2006]

Actually early in camp several Dolphins fans thought that Toribio had a legit shot to make the team. Made it to the PS, if injuries wouldn't have caused a PS shakeup they probably would have kept him.

I get the sense Bill P tried to steal Lansanah as retaliation for our stealing Toribio, that Toribio was a cut and resign move for them and we snagged him while on the street. (we signed him to our PS almost immediately after being cut).

He was actually signed to our active roster late last year. Must have been a little something there.

There was a whole deal going on with Miami last season.

First Bill P & his minions signed that kid, Haynos, a good young TE off our practice squad. TT tried to bribe Haynos with some extra $ to stay on our PS. Haynos correctly signed with the Dolphins, to their active roster.

10 days or so later, Miami approached Lansanah to sign with em off our PS (again). This time TT realized the bribe 'em trick wouldn't work and signed Lansanah to our active roster. To make room, the Packers cut Tracy White. White wasn't much of a position player, but he was an ST terror.

Lansanah? he didn't much of anything. So TT lost two guys who could play and kept the kid with potential, who didn't do much.

Lesson learned, I guess, is don't mess with Bill the Tuna

True, yet Snake loves Italian food anyday, yet even a good Lansanah (he looked the beast in 2008 PS) is not enough to fuck with Bill. I really liked the LB, but it's moot...he's not an NFL player....and all these guys talked about are not NFL players (when Snake says NFL player, he means difference makers). Dime a fucking dozen yo.

[Partial]

I think for year one we'll be ok knowing their will be bumps and bruises at the spot. Truth be told I'm more concerned about end, as I believe Harrell will be a better NT than DE, and will be a suitable substitute if necessary.

[RashanGary]

Back injuries can obviously be nagging and end careers. Harrell is a naturally big, naturally powerful, instinctive defensive lineman with a good character and a drive to succeed. He was a great pick in theory that didn't pan out because of his nagging back injury that he didn't have until coming to the NFL.

It's too bad. I obviously thought he was going to be something special, but right now, I just don't know if he's ever going to get on the field consistently or ever be able to really lift the way he needs to, to be NFL strong.

We'll see. This might be the year. I have some hope. Listening to Waldo brings it back.

[KYPack]

Pryor from KY is way too small to be a 3-4 NT. Kid's got a vicious motor, but he's not NFL size, yet.

He's 6'0 319, and a couple of the taller guys ranked ahead of him are lighter. What do you expect him to do? Get taller?

Pryor isn't really a NT player. He's a 3 technique. This kid has an NFL motor. He hustles and gets the odd sack by using that hustle. He's the kind of guy who will root around and find a niche in the line and squirt thru. He uses everything he's got to make plays. Great attitude and all. He is not a power player. Has lots of trouble on a double team and doesn't really like playing on the centers hat.

Another thing about him that was troubling was his inability to play hurt. He would go when he was in there, but takes himself out with small hurts. if his toe or elbow is bothering him, he doesn't wanna play.

Now this is one of the few guys I saw play in college last year. You draft experts gotta give me some leeway. I watch about 90% less college ball than I used to. This is a guy I saw play, gimme my local knowlege on him.

You, Waldo, B-man, Harve and others are the draft kings, I yield to your power. Get outta my way and let me have my say on this one prospect, boys.

[rbaloha1]

Unsure if the backup nt are viable players for the scheme.

IMO Pickett should be fine at nt. How many plays per game RP is able to contribute given age and injury history remains to be seen.

Harrell is a de for this scheme due to his good feet for the position. DEs need to tie up blockers and keep feet moving allowing the lbs to fill gaps and make tackles. IMO Harrell fits the criteria and is wasted at ng.

NG is the key position in the 3-4. Height is irrelevant but weight matters due to the continual pounding on every play.

That was a nice list of prospects and maybe as the Sporting News projects Ron Brace is the pick in round 3.
Is Brace capable of playing nt?

The Kentucky player was a top performer in the SEC and faced continual double teams since he was their best player. Made plays and would be thrilled if selected. However does need to bulk up but appears to have the frame. Plays big as well.

[Lurker64]

Pryor isn't really a NT player. He's a 3 technique. This kid has an NFL motor. He hustles and gets the odd sack by using that hustle. He's the kind of guy who will root around and find a niche in the line and squirt thru. He uses everything he's got to make plays. Great attitude and all. He is not a power player. Has lots of trouble on a double team and doesn't really like playing on the centers hat.

But in Capers 3-4 defense, since it's a 1-gap assignment system for all of the DL, all Pryor would have to do is line up in either the 0-tech or the 1-tech and hit one A-gap or the other. Since you're not expecting him to control two gaps, wouldn't "rooting around and finding a niche to squirt though" be an advantage? I would venture that "has a lot of trouble on a double team" is something you can say about virtually every DT or NT prospect coming out in the draft, in all honesty.

Certainly, he's not as strong as he could be, but no rook is and they all get more powerful. But guys who can shoot gaps are valuable to a 1-gap 3-4 system (like Capers runs), but not so valuable to a 2-gap 3-4 system (like Belichick and his disciples run.)


Harrell is a de for this scheme due to his good feet for the position. DEs need to tie up blockers and keep feet moving allowing the lbs to fill gaps and make tackles. IMO Harrell fits the criteria and is wasted at ng.

Harrell actually fills a really valuable role in the 3-4, he's the DE that you can line up at NT for 10-20 plays a game in a pressure package or just to give the starting NT a breather, and he won't get you killed playing that spot. He's not going to be able to hold up at the nose the whole game, but he's going to be fine for a couple of dozen plays a game. Assuming Harrell is healthy, with the roster the way it is now, if Pickett has to come out for some reason, Harrell's the guy they slide in at Nose to replace him. He's probable that guy no matter who we draft at the NT position (Harrell handles a double team a lot better than any of the other NT prospects.)

[texaspackerbacker]

I like the fact that people are finally coming around to a positive point of view on Harrell, especially the dual use thing--rotating at both DE and NT.

We can still probably use a backup in the 3rd - 5th round in case Harrell can't stay healthy and to develop for after Pickett is gone.

[KYPack]

Pryor isn't really a NT player. He's a 3 technique. This kid has an NFL motor. He hustles and gets the odd sack by using that hustle. He's the kind of guy who will root around and find a niche in the line and squirt thru. He uses everything he's got to make plays. Great attitude and all. He is not a power player. Has lots of trouble on a double team and doesn't really like playing on the centers hat.

But in Capers 3-4 defense, since it's a 1-gap assignment system for all of the DL, all Pryor would have to do is line up in either the 0-tech or the 1-tech and hit one A-gap or the other. Since you're not expecting him to control two gaps, wouldn't "rooting around and finding a niche to squirt though" be an advantage? I would venture that "has a lot of trouble on a double team" is something you can say about virtually every DT or NT prospect coming out in the draft, in all honesty.

Certainly, he's not as strong as he could be, but no rook is and they all get more powerful. But guys who can shoot gaps are valuable to a 1-gap 3-4 system (like Capers runs), but not so valuable to a 2-gap 3-4 system (like Belichick and his disciples run.)



Yeah, maybe.

Who really knows, Pryor is a motor rather than power DT. He's the kind of kid who you really like, but he then you wonder where he went.

I know the party line is that Capers one gaps the DLine in his 3-4. I've mainly watched a lot of LeBeau's 3-4. LeBeau 2 gaps his interior guys, the NT and 1 or 2 DE's. The interior guys for LeBeau are spear carriers. The 2 OLB's are basically DLineman who one gap, blitz, and cover a little. I probably have to wait until i see some more on what Don is running now. I've always thought Capers and LeBeau ran the same scheme, but Don may have evolved to a different scheme since they've been apart. Hell, it's been 15 years since they coached together.

[pbmax]

I know the party line is that Capers one gaps the DLine in his 3-4. I've mainly watched a lot of LeBeau's 3-4. LeBeau 2 gaps his interior guys, the NT and 1 or 2 DE's. The interior guys for LeBeau are spear carriers. The 2 OLB's are basically DLineman who one gap, blitz, and cover a little. I probably have to wait until i see some more on what Don is running now. I've always thought Capers and LeBeau ran the same scheme, but Don may have evolved to a different scheme since they've been apart. Hell, it's been 15 years since they coached together.
Have you seen any one-gap? Because one of the tidbits Darren Perry revealed at his hiring was that the Steelers had not two gapped exclusively for a while, though that change had happened after Dom left. From a distance, that makes some sense since Harrison and esp.Woodley have good weight/size, the starting lineman are not huge by 3-4 standards. I know height/weight is not completely determinative. But when I read Perry's comment, I thought it explained the size chart Harvey came up with early, that showed esp. the Steelers playing a little lighter than the rest.