Changes to the offense?

[Lurker64]

Press Gazzette (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090415/PKR01/90415165/1058&located=RSS)


Though it’s not as grandiose as the defense switching to the 3-4 under new coordinator Dom Capers or even as comprehensive as the overhaul on special teams under new coach Shawn Slocum, there are subtle changes taking place in the running and passing games.

Every team tweaks their offense somewhat during the offseason, but the fact that McCarthy made a point of mentioning it leads me to believe that possibly they are changing it a bit more than usual. My guess is maybe McCarthy is changing the offense in place that was sort of "optimized for Favre" to an offense that is "optimized for Rodgers", but McCarthy also alluded to changes to the running game. We really had only one successful running play last year (the inside zone run), so some tweaks may actually be necessary... then again, we might just need someone at RT (and maybe LT) that would allow us to run the Outside Zone.

Anybody have any inkling about what's about to change?

[Waldo]

Hard to say with McCarthy, IMO he's one of the few offensive coaches at the NFL that is able to incorporate fairly novel concepts into his offense rapidly, his scheme is so fluid and oddball, it's hard to say.

Some things however that wouldn't surprise me:

Incorporation of some wildcat concepts into our offense.

A further refinement on the NFL spread (which IMO MM has at the cutting edge in GB, I think that he runs the most advanced version of the spread in the NFL).

When you look at the spread at the NFL level, it's very different than it's NCAA counterparts due to the protections involved. MM has hit on 2 novel protections/concepts that allow the 5 WR set or 4 WR run n' gun set to be more of a base offense than a situational play.

The slants that MM used early in '07 where Greg and DD tag teamed on the slants, actually seemed as sort of a built in protection. A quick slant route is hard as hell for a CB to cover, but easy for a LB to shut down. By freezing the backers with slants, they can't blitz the empty set, they blitz and chances are there is a wide open quick slant. The regular use of those routes actually made the WR's part of the protection package in a way, and made the empty set much more sustainable.

The concept of WR's in the backfield was a new wrinkle MM tried out last year with Jordy. It has been common practice to take a TE, drop him back as an H Back, and use him to pick up the blitz or run block, or split the TE wide. However you aren't gaining much in the way of an advantage unless your TE is blazing fast, most teams match LB's with TE's in personnel substitutions. On the flipside if you put a big strong WR back there, like Jordy or Jones, the defense has it's pants down having subbed a CB in with the WR substitution. One of our better run plays late last year was out of the run n' gun formation, Jordy would presnap motion into the backfield, the whole offensive line would slant away from Jordy, and Jordy would slow up the unblocked DE. This was a big time overload of the POA, where there were 5 OL's blocking 3 DL's and 1 lb (dime defense). With an athletic OT that play could be wicked good, basically pulling the OT as a lead blocker through the hole. Jordy also motioned in to do some blitz pickup blocking a couple of times. This wrinkle could make the 4 WR run n' gun set very lethal, as both Jones and Jordy are unusually big and strong for WR's.

I think also that MM could be rather giddy about what he can do with his new toy. Lee is good and all and reliable, but Finley is basically a 6'6" 250lb WR. He's as fast as a possession WR and has WR hands/catching ability. With an offseason to tinker with the offense having Finley in the fold, it'll be interesting to see what he comes up with.

The more useful players the better for MM. When things are humming he keeps the defense constantly substituting by rapidly moving guys in and out virtually every play, the faster Aaron keeps thing going the harder time the defense has getting set for each play.

The best drive we had last year (the long one vs. Carolina) was almost purely out of a 4 WR, 1 RB run n' gun set after formation break, but other formations were motioned to at the line.

[pittstang5]

Waldo,

Your knowledge fascinates me. I love your posts and always look forward to what you have to say. We're you a coach or are you just a fan that knows a ton.

[Waldo]

Waldo,

Your knowledge fascinates me. I love your posts and always look forward to what you have to say. We're you a coach or are you just a fan that knows a ton.

Just a fan. Heck I barely played in HS, though when I have deeper questions my brother played FB for the Gophers and shared the backfield with Tapeh, Barber, Maroney, and Russell, I can always ask him. On other sites I know of a legit scout that happens to be a Packer fan that posts (he avoids spreading any rumors to anybody, even if he knows them), and T. Williams agent posts at a site as well (crazy guy) on rare occasions (again, no rumor stuff, though he talks up his boy to no end).

Though I'm a bit of a junkie, when I get a chance to Tivo games, I typically will watch them several times, and rewatch some plays over and over to watch individual guys and to take in individual plays. Of all teams, MM's offense is definitely my favorite to watch (Pit's defense is my favorite). MM does some crazy things that nobody else does, as does Pit on defense. I'm downright giddy at the prospect of getting to watch both (Capers defense in GB that should be similar to Pit's defense), though MM vs. Lebeau this year is going to be strategically epic IMO.

[texaspackerbacker]

I like the idea of some "wildcat" type stuff, but who would run it? Rodgers probably could, but it would be a great way to get him hurt; Flynn did it once or twice last year, but he's not really enough of a runner; Do we have any other skill players with a known ability to throw it a little bit?

I've been talking about drafting a Pat White type player for this purpose; The Duke BBall player, Paulus might also be good for this.

I agree with Waldo, some slants or outside zones would really be welcome. It kinda depends on who ends up at the tackles for that, though.

It sounds to me like the main change to make it more Rodgers-friendly would be more rollouts and moving pockets--take advantage of the fact he is a lot more mobile than Favre at the end.

[Lurker64]

I like the idea of some "wildcat" type stuff, but who would run it? Rodgers probably could, but it would be a great way to get him hurt; Flynn did it once or twice last year, but he's not really enough of a runner; Do we have any other skill players with a known ability to throw it a little bit?

Ruvell Martin was a QB in high school before being converted to a WR in college, so that's more QB than Dolphins Wildcat QB Ronnie Brown has played in his life. His straight line speed has always been a weakness as a WR, but he's big, physical, and he makes plays and as a wildcat QB he's not really significantly slower than Pat White (4.55). Plus, he won't cost a draft pick.

Ruvell was already the emergency QB on the roster when we just had Favre and Rodgers as the QBs.

I just don't see the Packers drafting Pat White, as much as I like him as a prospect. He's valuable to a team who can use him as both a QB and a WR/KR which will probably lead to him going in the 2nd or 3rd to a team like Dallas, and I just don't think we have any room for wide receivers who don't actually know how to run a route. We've got five guys who already know how to play WR in this offense, and he's not going to beat out any of them.

[Joemailman]

I think it means he's bringing back Kevin Barry and the U-89 Package. Out of this package, they will utilize the shovel pass to the fullback option.

[Lurker64]

I wonder if McCarthy knows who he has in mind for Right Tackle yet.

[Joemailman]

My guess is he is hoping Barbre or Giacomini can win the job. Sitton would be the fallback option, but I suspect he's rather have Sitton at RG.

[Waldo]

I wonder if McCarthy knows who he has in mind for Right Tackle yet.

I've read elsewhere that we just had private workouts (or are about to) with Oher, A. Smith, and Britton. Sounds a lot like our first rounder is gonna be an OT, every year the Packers tip their hand as to their first pick with their late workouts, if the guy is there. It was Cason and Otah last year (both were gone, we actually had Cason on the phone when SD picked him, if you believe some of the rumors), and Harrell 2 years ago. My guess is our RT will come in the draft.

[Lurker64]

I've read elsewhere that we just had private workouts (or are about to) with Oher, A. Smith, and Britton. Sounds a lot like our first rounder is gonna be an OT, every year the Packers tip their hand as to their first pick with their late workouts, if the guy is there. It was Cason and Otah last year (both were gone, we actually had Cason on the phone when SD picked him, if you believe some of the rumors), and Harrell 2 years ago. My guess is our RT will come in the draft.

Eek, I would hate to take Britton in the top ten, that's a hell of a reach. Hopefully one of Smith or Oher are there, if that's the direction we're going.

[Waldo]

I've read elsewhere that we just had private workouts (or are about to) with Oher, A. Smith, and Britton. Sounds a lot like our first rounder is gonna be an OT, every year the Packers tip their hand as to their first pick with their late workouts, if the guy is there. It was Cason and Otah last year (both were gone, we actually had Cason on the phone when SD picked him, if you believe some of the rumors), and Harrell 2 years ago. My guess is our RT will come in the draft.

Eek, I would hate to take Britton in the top ten, that's a hell of a reach. Hopefully one of Smith or Oher are there, if that's the direction we're going.

I hope they are only seriously considering him if they trade down. He's a very solid technician and a polished tackle, but alligator arms will always hold him back. Oher's a pretty good fit for this newer direction that TT is taking the line, same ZBS athleticism as before, but bigger guys that are 310+. His ceiling is absurdly high, I would definitely not be disappointed in the pick. The nice thing about LT's, if they bust they still tend to be real good RT's or G's.

[gbgary]

i hope he changes a lot because the offense, to me anyway, sucked for the most part. i know injuries and inexperience was a big factor but we were very predictable. as for anything wildcat...i'd be very surprised to see anything more than the odd play here and there...maybe a dozen plays the whole year.

[Waldo]

i hope he changes a lot because the offense, to me anyway, sucked for the most part. i know injuries and inexperience was a big factor but we were very predictable. as for anything wildcat...i'd be very surprised to see anything more than the odd play here and there...maybe a dozen plays the whole year.

There is next to nothing gained by being unpredictable......(if pass/run is what you define as predictable)

The offense is already unpredictable. The ZBS by it's nature does not define the hole until the back finds it, there is no set hole. There is very little advantage to knowing that we are running, as any attempt to correct for it leads to an audible or a different read by the back. Our passing game, predicated on audibles and option routes, with reads determined under center, likewise is completely unpredictable, there is no advantage to knowing that we are passing, adjust toward defending one thing, something else opens up.

[rbaloha1]

i hope he changes a lot because the offense, to me anyway, sucked for the most part. i know injuries and inexperience was a big factor but we were very predictable. as for anything wildcat...i'd be very surprised to see anything more than the odd play here and there...maybe a dozen plays the whole year.

There is next to nothing gained by being unpredictable......(if pass/run is what you define as predictable)

The offense is already unpredictable. The ZBS by it's nature does not define the hole until the back finds it, there is no set hole. There is very little advantage to knowing that we are running, as any attempt to correct for it leads to an audible or a different read by the back. Our passing game, predicated on audibles and option routes, with reads determined under center, likewise is completely unpredictable, there is no advantage to knowing that we are passing, adjust toward defending one thing, something else opens up.

If this was true a touchdown would happen on every drive. Ivory tower stuff.

A-Rod uses audibles very little due to a lack of game time experience.

My guess is more bootlegs, reverses, screens and 5 wr sets. Maybe MM trusts AR to call a run and pass play on every snap allowing AR to audible based on defense.

[Waldo]

i hope he changes a lot because the offense, to me anyway, sucked for the most part. i know injuries and inexperience was a big factor but we were very predictable. as for anything wildcat...i'd be very surprised to see anything more than the odd play here and there...maybe a dozen plays the whole year.

There is next to nothing gained by being unpredictable......(if pass/run is what you define as predictable)

The offense is already unpredictable. The ZBS by it's nature does not define the hole until the back finds it, there is no set hole. There is very little advantage to knowing that we are running, as any attempt to correct for it leads to an audible or a different read by the back. Our passing game, predicated on audibles and option routes, with reads determined under center, likewise is completely unpredictable, there is no advantage to knowing that we are passing, adjust toward defending one thing, something else opens up.

If this was true a touchdown would happen on every drive. Ivory tower stuff.

A-Rod uses audibles very little due to a lack of game time experience.

My guess is more bootlegs, reverses, screens and 5 wr sets. Maybe MM trusts AR to call a run and pass play on every snap allowing AR to audible based on defense.

Do you actually watch the Packers, or just make stuff up because it sounds good? How many times did we have illegal man downfield because Aaron nodded to a WR and ran a pass play, while the rest of the team run blocked. Aaron calls a fair # of audibles, he actually audibles into runs, something that Brett pretty much didn't do. If Aaron calls his own protections (he does), he surely is free to audible as he sees fit.

A TD would not happen every drive. This is the same way the offense was for Brett. Execution wins football games, not unpredictability.

[Lurker64]

i hope he changes a lot because the offense, to me anyway, sucked for the most part. i know injuries and inexperience was a big factor but we were very predictable. as for anything wildcat...i'd be very surprised to see anything more than the odd play here and there...maybe a dozen plays the whole year.

There is next to nothing gained by being unpredictable......(if pass/run is what you define as predictable)

The offense is already unpredictable. The ZBS by it's nature does not define the hole until the back finds it, there is no set hole. There is very little advantage to knowing that we are running, as any attempt to correct for it leads to an audible or a different read by the back. Our passing game, predicated on audibles and option routes, with reads determined under center, likewise is completely unpredictable, there is no advantage to knowing that we are passing, adjust toward defending one thing, something else opens up.

If this was true a touchdown would happen on every drive. Ivory tower stuff.

A-Rod uses audibles very little due to a lack of game time experience.

My guess is more bootlegs, reverses, screens and 5 wr sets. Maybe MM trusts AR to call a run and pass play on every snap allowing AR to audible based on defense.

To echo what Waldo was saying:

Just because the offense is always unpredictable doesn't mean that it is always successful. Just because a passing play puts the defense on the disadvantage because it's nearly impossible for the defense to shut down every one of Rodgers's options doesn't mean that every pass will be completed. A defensive lineman can always make a play forcing a hasty throw, recording a sack, or batting down the ball. A defensive back can always make a play on the ball. The QB could always pick the wrong target or simply not throw the ball as well as he could. The WR could always stumble or drop the ball. Just because it's frequently impossible for the defense to take advantage of knowing what's coming doesn't mean the defense is hapless or the offense is supremely confident.

Zone runs by their nature don't have a specific hole picked out. The offensive lineman execute their blocks and the running back chooses the hole based on how the blocking goes. Knowing that it's coming doesn't mean that you can necessarily stop it since the only reliable way to stop it is to control all of the gaps, but if you control all of the gaps, you can stop any running play. By contrast, if the defense knows for certain that the next running play is a draw (or a trap/counter/dive/sweep/toss) means that the defense should be able to stop it almost all of the time, since if they know the play and they know what hole it's going through, you just make sure there's no hole there and the play is broken.

What McCarthy's offense does is minimize the opportunities where the defense will defeat the offense on the field simply by having the correct defense called. In that sense it is unpredictable, since in general there are no "silver bullet" defensive calls that defeat specific plays. The success or failure of the play just comes down to offensive talent and execution vs. defensive talent and execution.

[SnakeLH2006]

I think it means he's bringing back Kevin Barry and the U-89 Package. Out of this package, they will utilize the shovel pass to the fullback option.'

U-89 is the shit yo. Bring that back. Keep the zone scheme obviously cuz we don't have the "big" players suited for a "true" gap scheme ala Sherman, but the short yardage under MM has been a joke. Use Preston off the bench to augment the OL at TE. Snake would love to see that....

Just something great about running your play knowing damn well the D knows it, yet they can't stop it. Gary Payton (Seattle PG NBA) used to call out the plays he was gonna run in his prime to his opponents, yet they rarely could stop him. Just something awesome about that.

Snake does that in Madden to his buddies, saying "hey I'm throwing to TO on the left with a post on this play" (yet no one stops Snake or Chuck Norris)....followed by heated words, and many more beers getting drank. Just fun stuff, yet I don't get paid like Gary Payton or even Kevin Barry. WTF!!!?? :x

[Fritz]

Punt on first down!

To call an audible from the shotgun, have Aaron Rodgers grind his hips with his hands cupped over his crotch, calling out women's body parts to signify plays.

These are possibilities. But my favorite is to bring back the fullback. Give him more than one or two carries on third and short. Give him enough carries to that the defense at least has to account for the guy.

This might mean Green Bay needs a more athletic fullback on the team. But draft gurus from 'rats have found one - I forget his name. So draft him, and while he develops give Kuhn or Hall some carries - I don't know, four or five or six - and give them a chance to catch the ball occasionally - more than before. Show them tapes of Hondo's classic move - jumping over the would-be tackler.

That's my "tweak."

[Waldo]

Punt on first down!

To call an audible from the shotgun, have Aaron Rodgers grind his hips with his hands cupped over his crotch, calling out women's body parts to signify plays.

These are possibilities. But my favorite is to bring back the fullback. Give him more than one or two carries on third and short. Give him enough carries to that the defense at least has to account for the guy.

This might mean Green Bay needs a more athletic fullback on the team. But draft gurus from 'rats have found one - I forget his name. So draft him, and while he develops give Kuhn or Hall some carries - I don't know, four or five or six - and give them a chance to catch the ball occasionally - more than before. Show them tapes of Hondo's classic move - jumping over the would-be tackler.

That's my "tweak."

Tony Fiammetta from Syracuse

[Joemailman]

I wonder if McCarthy knows who he has in mind for Right Tackle yet.

I've read elsewhere that we just had private workouts (or are about to) with Oher, A. Smith, and Britton. Sounds a lot like our first rounder is gonna be an OT, every year the Packers tip their hand as to their first pick with their late workouts, if the guy is there. It was Cason and Otah last year (both were gone, we actually had Cason on the phone when SD picked him, if you believe some of the rumors), and Harrell 2 years ago. My guess is our RT will come in the draft.

I'm starting to think Oher might be the most likely pick at #9. All the DE/OLB's have issues, Andre Smith has the weight, Raji might be gone, Tyson Jackson might be a reach etc. If they don't draft a OT high this year, they would probably have to next year, and this is a good year for OT's.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think it means he's bringing back Kevin Barry and the U-89 Package.

U-71. A U-89 package would have featured Robert Ferguson. Bretsky would have gone crazy over the U-89 package.