TRADE VIEWS

[Bretsky]

Give TT kudos for showing courage to trade up and get a guy he wanted in Clay Matthews. Nearly everybody likes our two new players; both of these guys could start for many years to come and both fill aread of need.

Homerism aside, nearly all of us probably like Clay Matthews; it'd be hard not to. He became a starter early in his senior season and capitalized on every opportunity. He is well spoken, a very hard worker, has a great attitude, and seems to have the intensity and talent to succeed.


This poll will ask you to give your viewpoint of whether Green Bay gave up too much to trade up from pick 41 to pick 26. In other words, who got the better deal with the picks, or did you like what we gave up for the pick we received.

Green Bay gave up their second round pick (41), two third rounders (73,83)
to New England for
New England's first round pick (26) and their fifth round pick (162)


This is probably one legit area to ponder, and I have no issue with the Risky Business mojo of somethings you just have to say WTF and go for it.

[RashanGary]

TT fleeced BB last time. Hard to say.

[red]

tt said himself that it wasn't a good deal for them value wise(trade chart)

but he also siad something along the lines of value is what you think it is

i really would have liked it a lot more if we could have kept one of the thirds and lost a 4th or 5th instead

but maybe TT thinks the talent between rounds 3-5 are all about the same

[Gunakor]

Bill B. just kept trading his picks after that, so if we are talking about player value TT wins. The Pats win on the trade value chart, and of course I'd like at least one of those 3's still, but weighing the players this trade nets each team against each other, Matthews wins. Is that what you were asking?

[digitaldean]

Was at a buddy's house watching this. Initially thought JS Online posted we gave up 2 3rds and a 5th. At the time, I thought they gave up too much.

I think the deal could have been a little better for us, since we now have no 3rds. All in all, it may be a wash.

If we get a starter out of this deal, it's worth it.

[Fritz]

I don't care for trading up, and especially when I saw that Barwin would have been available if TT had just stayed put....I liked Barwin. I'd have been happy with Raji and Barwin.

I just hope Matthews turns out to be really, really good.

It'll be interesting to see what OT's he drafts tomorrow.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think TT saw Clay Mathews' iron-man uncle and father and figured he got a chip off the old block. Durability is a real issue when you put all your eggs in one basket.

[Bretsky]

I don't care for trading up, and especially when I saw that Barwin would have been available if TT had just stayed put....I liked Barwin. I'd have been happy with Raji and Barwin.

I just hope Matthews turns out to be really, really good.

It'll be interesting to see what OT's he drafts tomorrow.


Seems like this is the only legit debate left; everybody has to be happy with our two additions

If we take Barwin we still have the 2 third round picks

Hopefully Matthews is a stud from the start and Raji develops into Ngata so we can all praise TT

[cheesner]

What if the Packers had Matthews ranked in the top 10 this year? Trading up to 10 with SF would have been a good 'value' based on the charts. Getting the same player at 26, if that is the case, is a steal of a pick, and still good value as its the same player.

I am not sure that is the case, but I suspect that Matthews was a couple tiers above what their 2 and 2 thirds would have provided.

[Fosco33]

Posted this before knowing TT's thoughts (and relationship) with Matthews' father/uncle. He obviously rated Matthews more like a 12-16 pick and the 'value' played out even.

On paper - we gave away #83 (in terms of value points).

That just happened to be the Jets pick we got for Favre.

Part of me wanted to see who would be linked to Favre and part of me wanted to fill other areas (RT, DE, CB) in the 2nd/3rd round.

But TT has what like 5 or 6 picks remaining? If we can get a few position players, a punter and maybe a starter out of the group - very successful draft.

[Freak Out]

It's the draft so only time will tell....but right now I would say the deal is even Steven.

[jmbarnes101]

Extremely happy with the day so far and I'm hoping we can get the following players tomorrow; no particular order.

Tony Fiammetta - FB Syracuse
Graham Gano - K Florida State and switch him to punter or another P
Michael Johnson - DE Georgia Tech
Kraig Urbik - G Wisconsin
Duke Preston - G Oklahoma
Everette Pedescleaux - DT Northern Iowa
The Badgers (Beckum, Kemp, Shaughnessy, Casillas, Levy)
Anyone recommended by Waldo

[BZnDallas]

when i first saw the poll question i thought Bill B. got the better of this trade... but after doing a lil reading, i think it was a pretty fair deal (voted fair)... since C. Mathews was rated highly by some experts i think that getting him at 26 when he was rated as low as 12, i think it was a good deal, even though we gave up a lot to get him...

[Noodle]

I say "Atta boy!" to TT for making this move. I have to assume they had Matthews as a top 20 guy. TT had the nutsack to ignore the draft charts and to do what he needed to get a key piece for the new defense.

Today, our GM grew a pair. I'm with him all the way, even if Matthews doesn't pan out.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I love both picks. I really hope both play great. Our defense has I think has 9 first or second round picks now. With the same offense basically from last year we could be very good next season.

The time to win is here!

[BobDobbs]

It's draft day and everybody is really excited about our picks. I am too, but that's alot to give up. I think too much. Clay Matthews has to be really good. Big gamble.

Also, that fifth round pick has to at least make the practice squad other wise we gave up three guys, including our Favre inheritance for one.

TTs 3rd round: Abdul Hodge, Jason Spitz, James Jones, Aaron Rouse, Jermichael Finley

TTs 5th round:Junius Coston, Michael Hawkins, Ingle Martin, Tony Moll, David Clowney, Breno Giancomini

Big Quality difference. on those lists.

Not to mention Ted has done pretty well in the second round so that was a valuable pick to give up. I wonder if this was a case of TT falling in love with someone and doing whatever it takes to get them. You don't want to make desperate moves on draft day.

[packrulz]

I think it was a decent trade, it was surprising that Matthews was still there. TT has probably already selected 2 young starters in this draft, and still has day 2 to go. From GBPG: Trade value

Thompson got the better value in his trade up into the first round to select outside linebacker Clay Matthews, according to one trade-value chart used by NFL teams.

The picks Thompson traded to New England (Nos. 41, 73 and 83) totaled 890 points, and the picks he received (Nos. 26 and 162) totaled 906.6 points. That’s a net gain of 16.6 points, or about the value of a late sixth-round pick.

“We have a couple, three of them,” Thompson said of the trade charts. “One’s a composite thing of different ones, one’s I think the original Cowboy one, and there’s another one. We have (director of research and development) Mike Eayrs, who works in statistics and numbers and he does things like that.

"It wasn’t a great trade, but it wasn’t a horrible trade for us from a numbers standpoint. But again, it gets to how badly do you want the player?”

[Packnut]

Mathews will step in and start day 1. He is a big upgrade over Poppinga. Teddy's 3rd rd picks mostly have pretty much sucked in my eyes (Hodge,Rouse).

It was a FANTASTIC trade. Mathews has a ton of upside.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Teddy's 3rd rd picks mostly have pretty much sucked in my eyes (Hodge,Rouse).

IF you want to play that game, how about Justin Harrell and David Clowney as 1st and 5th rounders? (actually, I guess Clowney is still the league, maybe the packers gave up on him too soon.)

Draft picks are never guaranteed, the odds are just better higher up the ladder. You can't say that Clay Mathews was worth more than his draft positon because his name is Clay Mathews.

[Fritz]

I'm thinking of the song "Ted E.'s in Love..." (You oldsters will remember "Chuck E.'s in Love".)

It sounds like TT kinda fell in love with Matthews. H e gave up an awful lot. Hard not to imagine (or fantasize) that if TT had waited and had Matthews dropped a bit more, TT might've been able to grab him with only the second & third.

But no one knows if Matthews would've fallen. We'll have to wait & see.

[sheepshead]

This is a very rare move for TT. I think Ol' Dom actually really really wanted this guy. This will be nothing but fun watching Matthews enthusiasm with Greenes and Capers tutelage.

[Harlan Huckleby]

This is a very rare move for TT. I think Ol' Dom actually really really wanted this guy .

Ya, it makes sense that TT is inclined to to bend over backwards to make his risks on D pan out.

[sheepshead]

This is a very rare move for TT. I think Ol' Dom actually really really wanted this guy .

Ya, it makes sense that TT is inclined to to bend over backwards to make his risks on D pan out.

Sorry, I dont follow.

[Packnut]

Teddy's 3rd rd picks mostly have pretty much sucked in my eyes (Hodge,Rouse).

IF you want to play that game, how about Justin Harrell and David Clowney as 1st and 5th rounders? (actually, I guess Clowney is still the league, maybe the packers gave up on him too soon.)

Draft picks are never guaranteed, the odds are just better higher up the ladder. You can't say that Clay Mathews was worth more than his draft positon because his name is Clay Mathews.

No, but I can say he's an upgrade over the pos Poppinga. Anyone with doubts about Mathews should watch him against OS.

[packrulz]

Matthews is the total package, he can rush the passer, he can shed blocks to tackle the RB, and he can drop into pass coverage. I like him because he tackles like he's pissed off, he inflicts pain.

[Harlan Huckleby]

This is a very rare move for TT. I think Ol' Dom actually really really wanted this guy .

Ya, it makes sense that TT is inclined to to bend over backwards to make his risks on D pan out.

Sorry, I dont follow.


TT has already taken a big chance on D. It makes sense that he will give Capers what he wants to make that gamble pay off.

[DonHutson]

I don't really care what the draft charts say. It's pretty apparent from taking Raji over Crabtree and from trading up for Matthews that Ted went into this hoping to get two guys that could be meaningful contributors on day one in the new defense. If they feel like Matthews is a safe bet to contribute, and that the 2nd and 3rd rounders would've been spent on guys you're HOPING would offer something - then they made a good trade.

If you come away with two impact payers in what was considered a historically weak draft, then I don't care what strings you pulled to accomplish it.

[Patler]

This poll will ask you to give your viewpoint of whether Green Bay gave up too much to trade up from pick 41 to pick 26. In other words, who got the better deal with the picks, or did you like what we gave up for the pick we received.

Green Bay gave up their second round pick (41), two third rounders (73,83)
to New England for
New England's first round pick (26) and their fifth round pick (162)


What did the Packers give up? - Hardly anything.
Basically they gave up their own third and received a fifth for the right to move from #41 to #26. The #83 pick was a freebie, received for a player they didn't expect to have and didn't want. It took absolutely nothing away from their long range plans.

Wolf once said that the compensatory picks were an opportunity to go for broke, because the pick was a gift you didn't expect to have, it was not in your plans. It didn't matter if you wasted it. NYJ's pick for Favre was even more so, because it wasn't for a player that was lost like a compensatory pick, it was for a player the Packers wanted to retire, encouraged to retire, for which they would have been more than happy to get nothing. Losing that pick in the trade takes nothing away from the Packers long range plan.

To go from #41 to #26, the Packers moved from #73 to #162, and threw in something they didn't want in the first place (Favre).

[Lurker64]

Strictly speaking, Patler, the Favre trade to NY included a provision that if Favre retired after one year, Green Bay owed New York a 2010 6th round pick.

So, in your reasoning (which I agree with) by the way we gave up our 3rd round pick and our 6th round pick in 2010 in order to move up from #41 to #26, and netted a 2009 5th round pick in return.

Still a reasonable price.

[Bretsky]

That was a good dance by Patler but I don't agree at all. Bill Bellichek traded two third round picks for two seconds next year. Not saying TT would ever do that....but those picks have values and I haven't found a draft/point chart that makes the deal seem close.

We gave up a 2nd and two thirds for a 1st and a 5th.

However, as I've said numerous times.....while I feel BB robbed us a bit....if Matthews turns into a stud it was still worth it and I commend TT for being aggressive.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I haven't found a draft/point chart that makes the deal seem close.

Actually, somebody posted that there are three charts. One had it lopsided in favor of New England, one had it favor New England but not by a lot, and one had it even. I think he got the low-end of the trade, but it won't matter when Clay Matthews becomes an All-Pro.
:D

[bobblehead]

My view goes like this. TT was absolutely going to trade the BF pick for multiples or to move up like he did. NO WAY he wanted one single identifiable player linked to BF leaving green bay, and he accomplished that. If he made that pick where he got it we would have NEVER heard anything else about said player.

Part 2. This was a very shallow and somewhat weak draft by most peoples honest account. I think TT did not have any players graded as worth 2nd or 3rd round picks so he used them to move up and pick a guy he did have graded higher than where he went. Probably the last guy of interest he had in this draft. I also think its the reason BB traded for picks next year. Not much to love in this draft as 2-3 round talent, solution, grab the one guy left you like and give up the 2-3 picks.

Will it work?? I think TT's reputation of spotting talent is on the line if Mathews doesn't excel so it better.

[Joemailman]

Without a draft chart, I'd say an even trade would have been a 2nd and a 3rd for the 1st. Aside from that, TT gave up a 3rd and got back a 5th, or the equivalent of giving up a 4th. If Matthews is as good as TT thinks he is, it's worth it.

[Bretsky]

I haven't found a draft/point chart that makes the deal seem close.

Actually, somebody posted that there are three charts. One had it lopsided in favor of New England, one had it favor New England but not by a lot, and one had it even. I think he got the low-end of the trade, but it won't matter when Clay Matthews becomes an All-Pro.
:D


That's what I've been saying all along...but I use an "if" instead of when

TT must've really loved the guy so ya gotta have faith

[HarveyWallbangers]

That's what I've been saying all along...but I use an "if" instead of when

TT must've really loved the guy so ya gotta have faith

Matthews looks a lot like Chad Greenway to me. What do you think Bretsky?

[Patler]

That was a good dance by Patler but I don't agree at all. Bill Bellichek traded two third round picks for two seconds next year. Not saying TT would ever do that....but those picks have values and I haven't found a draft/point chart that makes the deal seem close.

We gave up a 2nd and two thirds for a 1st and a 5th.

However, as I've said numerous times.....while I feel BB robbed us a bit....if Matthews turns into a stud it was still worth it and I commend TT for being aggressive.

So I assume you would disagree with Wolf's view on the value of compensatory picks then? I assume you think a third round compensatory pick should be treated in the same way as any other late third, early fourth round pick?

My comment was no dance. Just a reasoned opinion. The Jet's pick had value, but not as much as you think. Or, do you think every pick at the same position every year in every situation has nearly the same value? The Packers had 0 investment in the Jets pick they traded. Last year at this time they didn't have it, nor did they have the player they "gave up" to get it. He was retired. They got the pick for absolutely nothing, with even less investment than in a compensatory pick. Why not use it to take a shot at something?

I would agree that we have to consider any pick the Packers have to "return" to the Jets in evaluating this trade.

[Joemailman]

Any regrets I had about the trade were erased when the Packers used the 5th they got to draft Jamon Meredith who many had a 2nd or 3rd round grade on. Whether TT was good or lucky, that worked out pretty well.

[Bretsky]

That's what I've been saying all along...but I use an "if" instead of when

TT must've really loved the guy so ya gotta have faith

Matthews looks a lot like Chad Greenway to me. What do you think Bretsky?


Matthews looks very smooth in those drills. I've read about his history and it's clear he's a great guy with a great attitude. So I'd agree he looks comparable to Greenway.

But the question that begs for an answer.........why wasn't he starting at the beginning of his senior year. Once he took over he looked awesome....but when you think about it that's a bit scary and a huge investment for a guy who didn't start the season as a starter.

I hope he's not the classic overachiever with a limited upside.

Right now I'm definitely a fan of his though

[Bretsky]

That was a good dance by Patler but I don't agree at all. Bill Bellichek traded two third round picks for two seconds next year. Not saying TT would ever do that....but those picks have values and I haven't found a draft/point chart that makes the deal seem close.

We gave up a 2nd and two thirds for a 1st and a 5th.

However, as I've said numerous times.....while I feel BB robbed us a bit....if Matthews turns into a stud it was still worth it and I commend TT for being aggressive.

So I assume you would disagree with Wolf's view on the value of compensatory picks then? I assume you think a third round compensatory pick should be treated in the same way as any other late third, early fourth round pick?

My comment was no dance. Just a reasoned opinion. The Jet's pick had value, but not as much as you think. Or, do you think every pick at the same position every year in every situation has nearly the same value? The Packers had 0 investment in the Jets pick they traded. Last year at this time they didn't have it, nor did they have the player they "gave up" to get it. He was retired. They got the pick for absolutely nothing, with even less investment than in a compensatory pick. Why not use it to take a shot at something?

I would agree that we have to consider any pick the Packers have to "return" to the Jets in evaluating this trade.

That would be correct; I don't think we should give a pick at a certain draft position less value because it was ours or we received it on a trade ..etc.
I'd treat it as equally important as the rest.

Every pick has value and part of that equation is the pick number and the year/depth for that year IMO.

[Patler]

Part 2. This was a very shallow and somewhat weak draft by most peoples honest account. I think TT did not have any players graded as worth 2nd or 3rd round picks so he used them to move up and pick a guy he did have graded higher than where he went. Probably the last guy of interest he had in this draft. I also think its the reason BB traded for picks next year. Not much to love in this draft as 2-3 round talent, solution, grab the one guy left you like and give up the 2-3 picks.


That's another key. If TT believed he would be drafting normally 4th or 5th round talent with those third round picks, or even low third round talent in a typical year, the picks didn't have nearly as much value to him as the "charts" might indicate.

[Joemailman]

During the season, I heard several people say the USC defense had the most talent they'd ever seen. I'm guessing they had a number of talented guys who couldn't break the starting lineup who will be stars next year.

[Bretsky]

Part 2. This was a very shallow and somewhat weak draft by most peoples honest account. I think TT did not have any players graded as worth 2nd or 3rd round picks so he used them to move up and pick a guy he did have graded higher than where he went. Probably the last guy of interest he had in this draft. I also think its the reason BB traded for picks next year. Not much to love in this draft as 2-3 round talent, solution, grab the one guy left you like and give up the 2-3 picks.


That's another key. If TT believed he would be drafting normally 4th or 5th round talent with those third round picks, or even low third round talent in a typical year, the picks didn't have nearly as much value to him as the "charts" might indicate.


I'm sure you saw this if you were watching the draft...but NFL Network interviewed New England and their view was the exact opposite of the above. They did not see value at the end of round one but saw a lot of value picks in rounds two to three so they based their strategey on that. I don't know who's right or wrong so I just take it as an average draft.

They ended up with 4 seconds, one third.......and packaged two thirds to get two extra seconds for next year

[Lurker64]

I'm sure you saw this if you were watching the draft...but NFL Network interviewed New England and their view was the exact opposite of the above. They did not see value at the end of round one but saw a lot of value picks in rounds two to three so they based their strategey on that. I don't know who's right or wrong so I just take it as an average draft.

You also have to realize that there is the possibility that Ted Thompson made Belichick an offer he couldn't refuse, and that the Patriots didn't actually believe that the best talent in this draft was in the middle rounds, but they lied and said as much in order to increase the perceived value of their middle round picks when they trade them away for picks in the next draft.

The Pats front office isn't exactly known for being truthful, after all.

[Patler]

But the question that begs for an answer.........why wasn't he starting at the beginning of his senior year. Once he took over he looked awesome....but when you think about it that's a bit scary and a huge investment for a guy who didn't start the season as a starter.

Didn't he have hand surgery and miss some of the off season stuff because of it?

[HarveyWallbangers]

You also have to realize that there is the possibility that Ted Thompson made Belichick an offer he couldn't refuse, and that the Patriots didn't actually believe that the best talent in this draft was in the middle rounds, but they lied and said as much in order to increase the perceived value of their middle round picks when they trade them away for picks in the next draft.

The Pats front office isn't exactly known for being truthful, after all.

This is what I believe. Bill's moves on day two would seem to contradict his statement also. He ended up trading two of his third round picks in 2009 for picks in 2010.

[Patler]

Part 2. This was a very shallow and somewhat weak draft by most peoples honest account. I think TT did not have any players graded as worth 2nd or 3rd round picks so he used them to move up and pick a guy he did have graded higher than where he went. Probably the last guy of interest he had in this draft. I also think its the reason BB traded for picks next year. Not much to love in this draft as 2-3 round talent, solution, grab the one guy left you like and give up the 2-3 picks.


That's another key. If TT believed he would be drafting normally 4th or 5th round talent with those third round picks, or even low third round talent in a typical year, the picks didn't have nearly as much value to him as the "charts" might indicate.


I'm sure you saw this if you were watching the draft...but NFL Network interviewed New England and their view was the exact opposite of the above. They did not see value at the end of round one but saw a lot of value picks in rounds two to three so they based their strategey on that. I don't know who's right or wrong so I just take it as an average draft.

They ended up with 4 seconds, one third.......and packaged two thirds to get two extra seconds for next year

Well OF COURSE New England saw it differently, that's why they made the trade. Would they have done it to help out the Packers? Every team thinks they are doing the right thing when they make a trade, or they wouldn't do it. Normally one is right and one is wrong, and occasionally it is a toss up.

So now we have determined that Bretsky agrees with Belichick and disagrees with Ron Wolf.