13-3 season for the Pack? Read this optimistic assessment

[Willard]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/163832-packers-position-battles-resulting-from-the-2009-draft#comments

Highlights:
- Thompson bashers will be silenced with this excellent draft.
- BJ & Clay turn weakness into strength.
- Al Harris' days in GB are numbered. Trade bait?
- Pack's passing game the envy of most other teams.
- Chad Clifton's days in GB are numbered.
- Wells and Poppinga in for a fight for their careers.
- The Pack in the discussion for most talented in NFC (w/ NYG, Panthers).

[vince]

This will no doubt be dismissed as kool-aid chugging homerism by some, but I think its reasonable to have very high expectations of this team going into the season. A few of the pieces need a bit more seasoning, but the potential for greatness is certainly in place - assuming the team can maintain reasonable health at the right positions.

On a side note, I liked the author's retort to one of the responders to the article. A few posters come to mind who might do well for themselves to heed his advice.


PS. Here are some general guidelines for not looking like a fool when posting in an online community:

1. Make arguments, not attacks. An argument is based on facts, attacks usually fail to acknowledge facts and are usually based on emotion.
1b. Don't call names, it just makes you look childish.
2. Take some time to do some research. Old or outdated information is useless when discussing current topics.
3. Make sure you've actually read, and understand, what was being said before making rushing to respond.

These are very basic, once you've mastered them, let me know, and I can share some advanced argumentative techniques.

[oregonpackfan]

I do see a significant turnaround for the Packers. A 13-3 record, however, is unlikely. I think a 10-6 season is more realistic.

[HarveyWallbangers]

That article seemed to be written by a fan. An overly optimistic one. He also repeatedly spelled Tauscher's name incorrectly.

[cpk1994]

I do agree that 13-3 probably won't happen. But this writer is out of his retarded mind if he thinks that TT will get rid of Harris, Chillar and Clifton. Clifton maybe, but Harris? He really is smoking the hard stuff.

[Patler]

I do agree that 13-3 probably won't happen. But this writer is out of his retarded mind if he thinks that TT will get rid of Harris, Chillar and Clifton. Clifton maybe, but Harris? He really is smoking the hard stuff.

Harris might be a fish out of water on occasion in the new D. Besides, they might not have room for him with:

1. Woodson being Woodson
2. Williams, if he is ready to start full time
3. Blackmon, the returning return man
4. Lee if he is ready to be the nickel back; and
5. Underwood as the new CB in training

Which do you release just to hang on to the oldest CB on the roster?

Then throw in Bush as a wild card multi-position deep roster backup, but ST performer. A trade for Harris, getting a low round draft pick would not be the worst thing to do. It would not surprise me one bit if #2 and #4 above are true.

[cpk1994]

I do agree that 13-3 probably won't happen. But this writer is out of his retarded mind if he thinks that TT will get rid of Harris, Chillar and Clifton. Clifton maybe, but Harris? He really is smoking the hard stuff.

Harris might be a fish out of water on occasion in the new D. Besides, they might not have room for him with:

1. Woodson being Woodson
2. Williams, if he is ready to start full time
3. Blackmon, the returning return man
4. Lee if he is ready to be the nickel back; and
5. Underwood as the new CB in training

Which do you release just to hang on to the oldest CB on the roster?

Then throw in Bush as a wild card multi-position deep roster backup, but ST performer. A trade for Harris, getting a low round draft pick would not be the worst thing to do. It would not surprise me one bit if #2 and #4 above are true.I'd release Pat Lee. You are trying to implement a new D. Capers needs to have the best talent available to him. Harris is still one of the best on the roster. I trust that Capers will maximize his use of Harris and would be better served year one to have another vet over Lee who would have to have major significant improvemnt to even think about moving Harris.

[vince]

While I agree that it's unlikely that Cliffy, Harris and Chillar are all gone before the start of training camp, the general tenor of the article regarding the team's depth and talent are, at minimum, a reasonable take on the state of the Packers.

Not many projected the Cardinals to be NFC representatives in the Super Bowl last year, and fewer yet projected the Giants the year before. Most predicted Coughlin to be fired by mid-season that year.

Those who projected anywhere near 13-3 two year ago for the Packers were also roundly dismissed as unrealistic homers. But it was the self-proclaimed "realists" who were soundly wrong.

Of course, injuries, lack of DL depth, ease of scheming versus the Packer pass rush, and poor special teams reared its ugly head last year. It seems reasonable to project - and only time will tell - that this team has taken strong steps to correct that which ailed them last year.

[HarveyWallbangers]

1. Woodson being Woodson
2. Williams, if he is ready to start full time
3. Blackmon, the returning return man
4. Lee if he is ready to be the nickel back; and
5. Underwood as the new CB in training

Keep Harris. Underwood can be kept as the 4th safety/6th corner.

[RashanGary]

I wouldn't be shocked if Harris is gone. HE's old. He's not a great fit in this defense.

I'd rather see him as nickle, but that is my preference.


Blackmon is awful.

Bush is awful.

Lee was awful. Lee appears dumb. This defense seems to rely on smart players being in the right spot at the right time. Lee's best skill coming out was man coverage and this defense should play very little man coverage\

Underwood is a rookie and should be bad at best in year 1


If I had to guess who makes it, I'd go like this:

Woodson
Williams
Harris
Underwood
Lee (ST's)
Bush (ST's)

I really hope Underwood pans out because I have little to no confidence in Blackmon or Lee panning out and Woodson is getting older.

[bobblehead]

I love April when 2 rookies step right in to perform at a high level and transform a defense by themselves.

If I were a betting man (or more specifically if I could find a line on it) I would bet that Raji doesn't even start. Don't get me wrong, he will get a lot of snaps, but probably won't start. Mathews is harder to tell. I still think if Barnett is healthy the 4 will be Kamp, Barnett, Hawk, Chillar, but that is just me.

[wist43]

Even I've upped my expectations... but they still have a lot of work to do.

Raji will make everyone better on D... Capers will devise game plans that will generate more pressure, and hopefully the OL will be improved.

Add all that together, and you get a contender for the division... not a SB contender though. Although, with an improved defense, the could have a "punchers chance" of making some noise in the playoffs.

[Zool]

What he ^ said.

No reason to not contend for the division this season. Should be a fun season. I hope the D starts knocking the snot out of some people this year.

[RashanGary]

Even I've upped my expectations... but they still have a lot of work to do.

Raji will make everyone better on D... Capers will devise game plans that will generate more pressure, and hopefully the OL will be improved.

Add all that together, and you get a contender for the division... not a SB contender though. Although, with an improved defense, the could have a "punchers chance" of making some noise in the playoffs.

This is where I am. I like the defense, but we'll be kidding ourselves if we think, in one year, we're going to get everyone playing as seamlessly as NE and Pittsburgh do.

Capers is a great coach though. I expect a huge turn around with that unit and I really hope the ST's is also greatly improved with the extra linebackers and what looks like a deeper roster.

Let's remember, we were a top 5 offense a year ago. IF the D and ST's do better, it will give the offense more easy shots a points, more opportunities with the ball and will wear defenses down more. A good defense instead of a bad one will send a huge ripple through this whole team. Plus, the schedule looks much better than a year ago.

I'm very optimistic. I even think this team could contend. I'm skeptical that it will all come together, but I'd be less surprised with a SB than I would be with 5-11.

[Patler]

I'd release Pat Lee. You are trying to implement a new D. Capers needs to have the best talent available to him. Harris is still one of the best on the roster. I trust that Capers will maximize his use of Harris and would be better served year one to have another vet over Lee who would have to have major significant improvemnt to even think about moving Harris.

Pat Lee? He gets released only if they are convinced he will never put it together. Otherwise, the guy gets more than a single season to prove himself. I agree, he has to show marked improvement from what he showed in pre-season last year, but it could happen. It was said last year that he showed good improvement during the season, and the coaches were anxious to get him on the field, but he had the knee injury and ended up on IR for the last 4 games instead of being able to show what he had learned.

They always say it is better to get rid of a player a year too soon than a year too late. This could be Harris' "year too soon".

[boiga]

I'm optimistic, but really trying to keep my expectations low after last season's disappointment.

Considering all the defensive readjustment and the comparative lack of experience on the offensive line, we shouldn't be shocked if we stumble a little out of the gate. I'm hoping for a 5-5 record going into the Thanksgiving Day game, and then a late season push once things start really clicking.



I'm saddened by your guys' analysis of Al's future here. although it is hard to counter. During the second half of last season, Harris played as well as at any point in his entire career. I hope he finds a niche in our new defense to continue that degree of dominance.

Also, I'm really looking forward to having Al trash talk Harvin into the ground. Harvin's a punk so being tossed on his ass by a bump would be a great introduction to the NFL.

[Patler]

.


Blackmon is awful.

Woodson
Williams
Harris
Underwood
Lee (ST's)
Bush (ST's)

I really hope Underwood pans out because I have little to no confidence in Blackmon or Lee panning out and Woodson is getting older.

Blackmon is no where near as bad as you make him out to be, not compared to what the Packers have had in the recent past. As for ST's, I don't recall Lee showing anything there, nor do I recall him being "advertised" as a ST prospect. Blackmon is the best return man the Packers have had in a while. It would be hard to throw that away so soon. With all the LBs that will be on the roster, it will be less necessary to keep DBs just for STs.

[vince]

I love April when 2 rookies step right in to perform at a high level and transform a defense by themselves.
Dom Capers and the rest of the defensive coaching staff, the prospects of an improved scheme, and the hope for a healthy veteran group (Hawk, Jenkins, Harrell, Woodson, Harris, Bigby, Rouse, Barnett, Pickett) have far more to do with prospects of an improved defense than the two rooks, who will also add much needed depth at important positions to the group.

[Patler]

1. Woodson being Woodson
2. Williams, if he is ready to start full time
3. Blackmon, the returning return man
4. Lee if he is ready to be the nickel back; and
5. Underwood as the new CB in training

Keep Harris. Underwood can be kept as the 4th safety/6th corner.

Ya, with a couple cross-over guys like Bush and Underwood, you have to kind of look at the last few spots for CBs and safeties as a group. The DBs are going to be interesting to watch during pre-season.

[rbaloha1]

The article is much too optimistic. Yes, The Packers are going to be improved especially in stopping the run.

ARod and the running game shall also be improved. The Packers could reach the Super Bowl in 2010.

[Guiness]

If they think Harris has another year, and Lee is a year away, would it be unheard of to trade Lee for a second (where he was taken) after he's been on the roster for a year? That seems high, but he's still a young guy with a lot of promise.

BTW Lee did play ST in college

He also totaled 299 yards on twelve kickoff returns (24.9 avg).

[Bossman641]

Even I've upped my expectations... but they still have a lot of work to do.

Raji will make everyone better on D... Capers will devise game plans that will generate more pressure, and hopefully the OL will be improved.

Add all that together, and you get a contender for the division... not a SB contender though. Although, with an improved defense, the could have a "punchers chance" of making some noise in the playoffs.

I feel like I'm living in bizarro world here.

Wist and Packnut optimistic? Tex negative about the Packers?

What the hell is going on out there??

[rbaloha1]

If they think Harris has another year, and Lee is a year away, would it be unheard of to trade Lee for a second (where he was taken) after he's been on the roster for a year? That seems high, but he's still a young guy with a lot of promise.

BTW Lee did play ST in college

He also totaled 299 yards on twelve kickoff returns (24.9 avg).

Why the disrespect for Harris from other posters? Generally, Harris is at the age where corners are replaced.

However Harris's skills are still top notch. Realize its the Pro Bowl but Harris was running well with all the wrs.

Lee was lost last season. Expect improvement and maybe in 2 seasons be a contributor.

[Gunakor]

If they think Harris has another year, and Lee is a year away, would it be unheard of to trade Lee for a second (where he was taken) after he's been on the roster for a year? That seems high, but he's still a young guy with a lot of promise.

BTW Lee did play ST in college

He also totaled 299 yards on twelve kickoff returns (24.9 avg).

Why the disrespect for Harris from other posters? Generally, Harris is at the age where corners are replaced.

However Harris's skills are still top notch. Realize its the Pro Bowl but Harris was running well with all the wrs.

Lee was lost last season. Expect improvement and maybe in 2 seasons be a contributor.

That's fine. Harris will be okay at least this year, and I expect at least 2 more good years out of Woodson. If Harris retires or is traded/cut after this season, T-Will seems ready to step in and be a starter. There'd be a dropoff, certainly, but I don't think Williams is that much worse than most of the starting corners in the NFL as is. So if it takes Pat Lee 2 more years to get up to NFL speed and become a legitimate starting cornerback for us, I think we have enough left in our current starters to facilitate that. I have not yet given up hope on Lee in the least.

[Partial]

I'd release Pat Lee. You are trying to implement a new D. Capers needs to have the best talent available to him. Harris is still one of the best on the roster. I trust that Capers will maximize his use of Harris and would be better served year one to have another vet over Lee who would have to have major significant improvemnt to even think about moving Harris.

And you like to tell me that I'm retarded :lol: :lol:

[Patler]

Why the disrespect for Harris from other posters? Generally, Harris is at the age where corners are replaced.

However Harris's skills are still top notch. Realize its the Pro Bowl but Harris was running well with all the wrs.

Lee was lost last season. Expect improvement and maybe in 2 seasons be a contributor.

What disrespect? It's roster management. As I wrote before, better to replace a player one year too soon than one year too late. It all depends on whether they have suitable replacements or not. If not, sure, you keep Harris for another year. But, if Williams is ready to start full time, AND if another DB is ready to step into the nickel role, what would be so wrong with moving Harris for a draft pick? No one is suggesting getting rid of Harris just for the heck of it. It depends on what is behind him on the roster.

Teams all over the NFL do that with veterans that are getting up in age, why shouldn't the Packers?

[cpk1994]

I'd release Pat Lee. You are trying to implement a new D. Capers needs to have the best talent available to him. Harris is still one of the best on the roster. I trust that Capers will maximize his use of Harris and would be better served year one to have another vet over Lee who would have to have major significant improvemnt to even think about moving Harris.

And you like to tell me that I'm retarded :lol: :lol:So you are willing to keep an absolute nobody over Harris? If Harris was a shell of himself I would agree. Harris can still go. Lee hasn't shown a reason to keep him yet. If Lee doesn't improve, yes he should be released, especially if it comes down to him or Harris. You are the retarded one letting Harris go while you can still use him.

[3irty1]

I can't say I'd be surprised if Harris were moved but I expect them to keep him on. Sanders may be gone but a press coverage specialist can still earn his check especially against the less physical WR that all our division rivals have as their top weapon.

[boiga]

Teams all over the NFL do that with veterans that are getting up in age, why shouldn't the Packers?

Because Al is by far the coolest Packer.

Materialist logic isn't the greatest factor in regards to fans' perspectives.

[mission]

I didn't think it was age as much as it is Age X Salary ... Al's not getting paid SO MUCH where we have to cut him. I don't know the numbers but it's not an LT type situation we have.

[Gunakor]

I'd release Pat Lee. You are trying to implement a new D. Capers needs to have the best talent available to him. Harris is still one of the best on the roster. I trust that Capers will maximize his use of Harris and would be better served year one to have another vet over Lee who would have to have major significant improvemnt to even think about moving Harris.

And you like to tell me that I'm retarded :lol: :lol:So you are willing to keep an absolute nobody over Harris? If Harris was a shell of himself I would agree. Harris can still go. Lee hasn't shown a reason to keep him yet. If Lee doesn't improve, yes he should be released, especially if it comes down to him or Harris. You are the retarded one letting Harris go while you can still use him.

Cpk, Tramon Williams would step in as the starter should Harris be let go or traded, not Pat Lee. Don't forget about T-Will. Lee might - might - be the one to step in at nickel for Tramon. There'd be a battle for that and the dime spot in camp between him, Bush, Blackmon, and the rookie Underwood. That battle would determine the depth chart behind the starters Williams and Woodson, should Harris not be a Packer for 2009, but would have no influence on the starters either way.

[bobblehead]

I love April when 2 rookies step right in to perform at a high level and transform a defense by themselves.
Dom Capers and the rest of the defensive coaching staff, the prospects of an improved scheme, and the hope for a healthy veteran group (Hawk, Jenkins, Harrell, Woodson, Harris, Bigby, Rouse, Barnett, Pickett) have far more to do with prospects of an improved defense than the two rooks, who will also add much needed depth at important positions to the group.

I agree. I have said many times that we will win 10-11 games this year, but it won't be because we drafted raji and mathews and they make all the difference.

I think we have a lot of talent and if we can avoid the strife we had with the D coaching staff last year we should be very good.

[Partial]

I'd release Pat Lee. You are trying to implement a new D. Capers needs to have the best talent available to him. Harris is still one of the best on the roster. I trust that Capers will maximize his use of Harris and would be better served year one to have another vet over Lee who would have to have major significant improvemnt to even think about moving Harris.

And you like to tell me that I'm retarded :lol: :lol:So you are willing to keep an absolute nobody over Harris? If Harris was a shell of himself I would agree. Harris can still go. Lee hasn't shown a reason to keep him yet. If Lee doesn't improve, yes he should be released, especially if it comes down to him or Harris. You are the retarded one letting Harris go while you can still use him.

Harris is strictly a man on man match-up corner imo and most peoples as well. Playing off in a zone is going to expose his lack of speed.

They drafted Lee to be the future, knowing he was a project. Why would you give up on that for one season when Harris is 34 and best days are clearly behind him.

I'm not advocating getting rid of Harris, but there is no way I'm cutting Lee. That'd be like cutting Rodgers before year two.

[Gunakor]

Teams all over the NFL do that with veterans that are getting up in age, why shouldn't the Packers?

Because Al is by far the coolest Packer.

Materialist logic isn't the greatest factor in regards to fans' perspectives.

Fans perspectives aren't the greatest factor in winning football games either. If trading Al to get something for his departure and starting Tramon Williams at that cornerback spot will help us win more football games, I'm all for it.

[cpk1994]

I'd release Pat Lee. You are trying to implement a new D. Capers needs to have the best talent available to him. Harris is still one of the best on the roster. I trust that Capers will maximize his use of Harris and would be better served year one to have another vet over Lee who would have to have major significant improvemnt to even think about moving Harris.

And you like to tell me that I'm retarded :lol: :lol:So you are willing to keep an absolute nobody over Harris? If Harris was a shell of himself I would agree. Harris can still go. Lee hasn't shown a reason to keep him yet. If Lee doesn't improve, yes he should be released, especially if it comes down to him or Harris. You are the retarded one letting Harris go while you can still use him.
Cpk, Tramon Williams would step in as the starter should Harris be let go or traded, not Pat Lee. Don't forget about T-Will. Lee might - might - be the one to step in at nickel for Tramon. There'd be a battle for that and the dime spot in camp between him, Bush, Blackmon, and the rookie Underwood. That battle would determine the depth chart behind the starters Williams and Woodson, should Harris not be a Packer for 2009, but would have no influence on the starters either way.I think you misunderstand me. Patler asked me who I would let go to make room for Harris and I said Lee. One of the reasons that Lee was drafted was to be a press corner in Vanilla Bob's worthless system. I am willing to go with Underwood, who was drafted for the sytem, over Lee who was drafted for the old system.

[3irty1]

Press coverage is something that occurs in all systems by all corners. Pat Lee is still a raw talent with the physical tools to do anything he's coached into doing. You don't go cutting a 2nd round talent after their rookie year without a very good reason. If he weren't capable of playing in another system then he shouldn't have been selected in the 2nd round in the first place.

[KYPack]

I didn't think it was age as much as it is Age X Salary ... Al's not getting paid SO MUCH where we have to cut him. I don't know the numbers but it's not an LT type situation we have.

Al's signed thru 2011 (remember when that seemed so far off in the future?). His base is 2.8 mil and he counts 4.8 mil against the CAP w/ bonuses. He'd be a 6-7 million dollar cap hit if cut. I think we need him for one more season. The problem is, there is a lot of off and deep zone cover in this zone blitz. When they fire zone, Al will sometimes be in that deep 3 and he hates that kind of cover.

'OL Dom (the comb-over kid) will have to scheme his brains out to keep Al happy.

[3irty1]

I didn't think it was age as much as it is Age X Salary ... Al's not getting paid SO MUCH where we have to cut him. I don't know the numbers but it's not an LT type situation we have.

Al's signed thru 2011 (remember when that seemed so far off in the future?). His base is 2.8 mil and he counts 4.8 mil against the CAP w/ bonuses. He'd be a 6-7 million dollar cap hit if cut. I think we need him for one more season. The problem is, there is a lot of off and deep zone cover in this zone blitz. When they fire zone, Al will sometimes be in that deep 3 and he hates that kind of cover.

'OL Dom (the comb-over kid) will have to scheme his brains out to keep Al happy.

You'd think that if you've got the ability to man up your blitzes would be exponentially better. I think Dom will appreciate the current skill set of Harris and all the Packers corners.

[The Shadow]

I love the direction of the Packers over the past few years.
Very optimistic!

[Deputy Nutz]

I love the direction of the Packers over the past few years.
Very optimistic!

what 31-33?

[mission]

I love the direction of the Packers over the past few years.
Very optimistic!

what 31-33?

Yup, I'm very optimistic despite that!

Wow.


:roll:

[Deputy Nutz]

What leads anyone to think that all of a sudden this team is going to jump to the top of the NFL? Offensively they are a lot of question marks at offensive tackle. This after the offense gave up what(?) 30 something sacks in 2008.

The whole defense is getting moved to a new defense that this team isn't exactly suited to play personnel wise.

I am not a huge Thompson fan, I still want to know what he has done in the 2009 off season to make this team better? Drafted a couple of kids? That isn't special all GMs right now are high on their picks, it is what they are supposed to do. I like the picks that Thompson made but that certainly doesn't mean that they are going to contribute enough to impact the outcome of the season in a positive way.

This draft like all other drafts are for the next couple of years, not for a current impact and if a GM is relying on their picks from the current to become game changers in their first year, that GM should lose his job.

So I guess if I am just being a downer to everyone because everyone is all jazzed on the kool-aid after the draft, then I apologize.

But again reality Thompson is a GM that has under a .500 record as a GM in Green Bay. I like some of the things that he has done, some things I think he could have made better choices. I guess you can say that for any GM.

I am approaching this season with optimism but cautiously.

[Partial]

Nutz, I'm with you on that one. A lot of people here have optimism for reasons that are unknown to me. Some reasons are legit, like young blossoming players like Collins and Jennings. Some are not so much.

To argue the team is on the up and up and is significantly more talented now that before TT got here is simply ignoring facts. Their are virtually the same amount of blue and red chippers on the roster, and the fact that are one blue chipper is at a skill position instead of a core position like it previously was, we're probably actually worse.

[Joemailman]

The hiring of Capers, and some of the other defensive coaches hired is what has me optimistic about 2009, not the draft. Despite the whole Favre saga, the Packers were so close last year. They lost 7 games in which they had the lead with 5 minutes left. With a record of just 4-3 in those games, they would have been in the playoffs. I believe if Capers had been the Packers DC last year, the Packers would have been a playoff team. I see no reason to expect less this year. Capers has a good record of success in his first year as a team's DC. This suggests he is very good at putting together a defense with enough flexibility that it takes advantage of the talent available. Call it 3-4, 4-3, hybrid, or whatever you want. Doesn't matter.

[KYPack]

Well Nutz, I'm like this,

'07 I thought we were starting to gel, but still had a lot of holes. I figured 9-7, 10-6.
We were 13-3 and made the NFC Championship game

'08 We overachieved in '07, new QB, figured we'd come back to earth and go 10-6.
We were 6-10 and basically took a trip to the shitter.

'09? We have kept this group together and have added an aggressive DC. I don't think any of the rooks will add all that much, but our core group should mature and play quite well. THIS year, I think we'll go 10-6

[Partial]

So we'll either be really good or really bad :D

[Joemailman]

The last 2 seasons, I've predicted 10-6, and they've gone 13-3 and 6-10. That pretty much averages out to 10-6, so that's where I'm thinking they'll be this year.

[Deputy Nutz]

The hiring of Capers, and some of the other defensive coaches hired is what has me optimistic about 2009, not the draft. Despite the whole Favre saga, the Packers were so close last year. They lost 7 games in which they had the lead with 5 minutes left. With a record of just 4-3 in those games, they would have been in the playoffs. I believe if Capers had been the Packers DC last year, the Packers would have been a playoff team. I see no reason to expect less this year. Capers has a good record of success in his first year as a team's DC. This suggests he is very good at putting together a defense with enough flexibility that it takes advantage of the talent available. Call it 3-4, 4-3, hybrid, or whatever you want. Doesn't matter.

I am not disagreeing with this, I think this team is going to improve record wise in 2009 from 2008, but I don't see them contending for the conference championship or anything. I am not drinking the kool aid, but I am also not jumping off a bridge calling for anyone's head at the moment. Capers was a great hire, does he have all the pieces, no.

There is some real talent on this team, no doubt. I don't agree with Partial on that. This team has some holes starting at offensive tackle, if Thompson is the GM that everyone he claims he is, he should have someone on the roster that he has drafted that should be capable of filling the spot vacated by Mark Tauscher. He has certainly drafted enough offensive linemen that one can be called a diamond in the rough.

You look at the rest of the offense and the team is pretty stacked. Wide receiver I don't see a team deeper in the NFC. Running back is finally secured with Grant being signed for the long term, coming into camp on time injury free. Jackson looked really good last year, and Wynn??? Who knows maybe Sutton can challenge him. Rodgers will be good, is he cut out of the same mold as Joe Montana, Brett Favre, and John Elway? Or is he more of a Donovan McNabb, Matt Hasselbeck, Jim Kelly quarterback, good numbers but just isn't a QB that you can count on with the ball with two minutes left in the game? Regardless I am happy with Rodgers at qb top ten in the league in 2009.

Defense they are going to slowly get away from the team that was built to run a 4-3. There are going to be adjustments and rough spots, but I think in 2010 this defense is going to be one of the best in the NFC.

[Partial]

Blue Chippers:
2009 - Jennings
2004 - Favre

Red Chippers:
2009 - Driver, Woodson, Harris, Clifton, Kampman, Rodgers
2004 - Driver, Walker, Green, Clifton, Harris, Wahle, Tauscher

I don't see an immense amount of more talent on the roster now than 2004, for example. If Rodgers can develop into a blue chip talent, we'll have a chance annually like we did with Favre.

[Deputy Nutz]

Whats with the chips? Are we playing poker with these guys?

[SnakeLH2006]

I wouldn't be shocked if Harris is gone. HE's old. He's not a great fit in this defense.

I'd rather see him as nickle, but that is my preference.


Blackmon is awful.

Bush is awful.

Lee was awful. Lee appears dumb. This defense seems to rely on smart players being in the right spot at the right time. Lee's best skill coming out was man coverage and this defense should play very little man coverage\

Underwood is a rookie and should be bad at best in year 1


If I had to guess who makes it, I'd go like this:

Woodson
Williams
Harris
Underwood
Lee (ST's)
Bush (ST's)

I really hope Underwood pans out because I have little to no confidence in Blackmon or Lee panning out and Woodson is getting older.

Well you got your 2nd and 3rd chance, eh? Why hate on Lee? One year and didn't really play. Really? Ok?

But Al ain't going anyway unless he really declines, and kinda pushed it last year (did Snake) yet he played as well as EVER in his late games push. He's a guy who may be a service for years as a coach (as a player, you need those old vets who know all the intricitries to help out the young 'uns..) and TWill might step in to start this year, but it's not like Al at $5 million a year will handicap this team. Trading him for a late rounder is a mistake unless TWill really goes nuts in the preseason...else hold onto him. Al's value is far better than a 5th or 6th.

[3irty1]

Nutz you watched the games last year. 6-10 doesn't tell the whole story. Its very doom and gloom to predict that it will continue to rain shit on the Packers.

[Maxie the Taxi]

The hiring of Capers, and some of the other defensive coaches hired is what has me optimistic about 2009, not the draft. Despite the whole Favre saga, the Packers were so close last year. They lost 7 games in which they had the lead with 5 minutes left. With a record of just 4-3 in those games, they would have been in the playoffs. I believe if Capers had been the Packers DC last year, the Packers would have been a playoff team. I see no reason to expect less this year. Capers has a good record of success in his first year as a team's DC. This suggests he is very good at putting together a defense with enough flexibility that it takes advantage of the talent available. Call it 3-4, 4-3, hybrid, or whatever you want. Doesn't matter.

Well said. With all NFL teams able to win or lose on any given Sunday, games are won or loss "on the margin." If a team can fix a particularly vulnerable area, they get marginally better and have a better chance winning the close games.

Offensively, the Packers will score points. Their vulnerability has been defense. If Capers' new scheme can improve our run defense, the entire defense will get marginally better and the Pack will be in a better position to win the close ones in the last minutes. Let's face it, in the NFL most every game is close in the last minutes.

[Deputy Nutz]

Nutz you watched the games last year. 6-10 doesn't tell the whole story. Its very doom and gloom to predict that it will continue to rain shit on the Packers.

We if you read what I wrote in reference to the "mailman's" post, it isn't all doom and gloom. We are one year further ahead on offense, we just don't have an actual right tackle and our left tackle is a boarderline cripple who can manage one maybe two practices a week and it is really starting to get under the skin of McCarthy.

The defense had two really big problems last year, injuries, and Bob Sanders. The loss of Jenkins really put this team in poor position, the consistent injuries and lackluster performances from Harrell really created a hole at tackle, Barnett blew his knee out, but he really wasn't playing all that well to begin the season. The Packers had a revolving door at strong safety due to injuries. Bob Sanders was simply overmatched as a coordinator in 2008. 90% of the time he was in a straight up 4-3, no different alignment from his line, not twists, no stunts, no zone blitz. Thats what I noticed, not the lack of blitzing, but the lack of creativity with the defensive line that every program from high school on up does.

Well injuries were last year, and Sanders is gone, but there is a whole new scheme to etch out. It is not going to be easy, Capers is a great coach, but a lot of the first year is going to be teaching, locking down responsibilities to memory. I hope it is a slow process, meaning the transition to the 3-4, I think he really needs to bastardize it to give guys like Kampman a chance of being productive. I am not sold on Hawk being a middle linebacker in this scheme, and I am certainly not pleased with seeing Barnett in this scheme. I understand the concept of one gap responsibility in Capers 3-4, but Barnett is still going to need to take on blockers something he fails at regularly.

Offensively if this team can get the tackles straightened out, something no team wants on their "to do" list at the beginning of the season, but if they can get some consistent production out of Clifton and the new right tackle this offense is going to be fun to watch. It could be the next "Greatest Show on Turf".

[Partial]

Nutz you watched the games last year. 6-10 doesn't tell the whole story. Its very doom and gloom to predict that it will continue to rain shit on the Packers.

How doesn't that tell the story? They started out hot then faded big time. It's a very accurate representation because it IS the only representation.

[Fritz]

I don't think Clifton was a red chipper last year. I do think Collins was, however.

I believe that the core of this team will improve, mostly, and this team will be successful this year. I think we're going to be feeling good next offseason.

[sharpe1027]

Blue Chippers:
2009 - Jennings
2004 - Favre

Red Chippers:
2009 - Driver, Woodson, Harris, Clifton, Kampman, Rodgers
2004 - Driver, Walker, Green, Clifton, Harris, Wahle, Tauscher

I don't see an immense amount of more talent on the roster now than 2004, for example. If Rodgers can develop into a blue chip talent, we'll have a chance annually like we did with Favre.

Woodson was in the running for Defensive player of the year. Collins had a great year, even if it was only one good year after several shaky ones, you gave J. Walker credit for one good year. Clifton was not very good last year.

[Gunakor]

What leads anyone to think that all of a sudden this team is going to jump to the top of the NFL?

I can't be sure if it happens all of a sudden. I kinda doubt it. But I am encouraged by the direction the team has taken defensively this offseason, and I do expect remarkable improvement. We don't have to be the #1 ranked defense in the NFL right away for me to be satisfied with the work done over the past couple of months. If we become a top 10 defense in the next year or two, partly as a result of the moves made both on the coaching staff and the roster this offseason, I'm happy.

I expect us to contend for a division title this year, but that's the extent of my expectation for this season. Anything beyond that is, as you say, just hope. But, looking forward, taking into account the expected development of the players we have now in addition to further expected upgrades at certain positions in upcoming seasons, that hope should become expectation sooner rather than later. That seems reasonable.

[Deputy Nutz]

I guess I would have liked our moves on defense a little bit better if Thompson would have brought in a couple of free agents that have worked in a 3-4 system, and I am not talking about a third rate safety either. This whole roster is filled with defensive players that have only played in a 3-4 at the NFL level. I think they can transition but not completely in one year. More bads than good in my opinion.

I love Dom Capers and was the guy I wanted to be hired, and again he is a great coach, but 2009 is carrying way too many expectations based on just the hire and two draft picks.

[Gunakor]

I guess I would have liked our moves on defense a little bit better if Thompson would have brought in a couple of free agents that have worked in a 3-4 system, and I am not talking about a third rate safety either. This whole roster is filled with defensive players that have only played in a 3-4 at the NFL level. I think they can transition but not completely in one year. More bads than good in my opinion.

I love Dom Capers and was the guy I wanted to be hired, and again he is a great coach, but 2009 is carrying way too many expectations based on just the hire and two draft picks.

2009 isn't the year of expectations. If you expect us to dominate everyone that lines up across from us THIS year, you are likely setting yourself up for disappointment. This particular season - the 2009 season - isn't the one I'm looking forward to. My hope and expectation is that this season shows real improvement, making future seasons worth looking forward to.

To anyone who thinks this draft and this coaching staff is going to amount to an immediate turnaround and make this team a SB contender right away, Nutz is right. We just switched over to a hybrid look on defense, and will probably phase the hybrid out as we become more of a pure 3-4 team. It's gonna take some time to iron out the wrinkles. I warn you not to place too much expectation on 2009 alone.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I expect us to compete for a playoff spot this year. If we don't, then I'll be disappointed. That's my expectation. My hope is that the offense remains top 10, the defense climbs into the top half of the league, and the special teams is helped by all of the LBs and we are at least average. That would make us an above average team. Super Bowl contender? That's tough. We've only been a legit Super Bowl contender about 4 or 5 times in the last 40+ years.

[RashanGary]

I expect us to compete for a playoff spot this year. If we don't, then I'll be disappointed. That's my expectation. My hope is that the offense remains top 10, the defense climbs into the top half of the league, and the special teams is helped by all of the LBs and we are at least average. That would make us an above average team. Super Bowl contender? That's tough. We've only been a legit Super Bowl contender about 4 or 5 times in the last 40+ years.

That's realistic. I'm hoping slightly better, but I'd understand this if there were signs that it would be continually getting better (ie, Jennings and all of the important FA's are signed before the season is over so we don't lose people next year) (and we see more young players step up, maybe one more stepping into "playmaker" category)

[Gunakor]

More playmakers emerging, especially on defense, is one area I do have expectations for this season. Mostly because this new aggressive scheme allows for more opportunities for players in our front 7 to make impact plays, and partly because I see the two players we drafted in the first round this year as being impact players.

Raji and Matthews are going to have their growing pains, but by the end of the season I expect to see them both playing like they belong out there starting. You can't understand how excited I am about those two being Green Bay Packers. It could very well end up being like the Sapp-Brooks draft that vaulted the Bucs into SB contention - but remember, that didn't happen right away. Which is why I warn everyone to temper their expectations for 2009.

[cpk1994]

More playmakers emerging, especially on defense, is one area I do have expectations for this season. Mostly because this new aggressive scheme allows for more opportunities for players in our front 7 to make impact plays, and partly because I see the two players we drafted in the first round this year as being impact players.

Raji and Matthews are going to have their growing pains, but by the end of the season I expect to see them both playing like they belong out there starting. You can't understand how excited I am about those two being Green Bay Packers. It could very well end up being like the Sapp-Brooks draft that vaulted the Bucs into SB contention - but remember, that didn't happen right away. Which is why I warn everyone to temper their expectations for 2009.I'm with you on this, and for the most part on this fourm, 10-6 seems to be the norm in terms of predictions so I don't think expectations are too far out there.

[Fritz]

Expectations are always molded by circumstances, so I'm hesitant to have specific expectations regarding records.

I will say though that IF this team stays healthy - that is so, so important - then I have hopes that this team will qualify for the playoffs this year. I would almost say "expectations," but what if they did a New England and went 11-5 and missed the playoffs?

But I am jacked about this team and this season. No BF distractions this time, a real defensive coordinator, A-Rod in year two as a starter - man, this is looking like it could be fun.

[3irty1]

Nutz you watched the games last year. 6-10 doesn't tell the whole story. Its very doom and gloom to predict that it will continue to rain shit on the Packers.

How doesn't that tell the story? They started out hot then faded big time. It's a very accurate representation because it IS the only representation.

I know you feel that way. I personally think everything that went wrong last year did. We may have been 6-10 but we were tragically close to 10-6. Some of it was in their control but lady luck sure didn't do they any favors. Maybe they are all a pile of losers led by a loser QB and a bunch of loser coaches who will always find a way to lose a close game but I'd like to think not.

[rbaloha1]

Expectations are always molded by circumstances, so I'm hesitant to have specific expectations regarding records.

I will say though that IF this team stays healthy - that is so, so important - then I have hopes that this team will qualify for the playoffs this year. I would almost say "expectations," but what if they did a New England and went 11-5 and missed the playoffs?

But I am jacked about this team and this season. No BF distractions this time, a real defensive coordinator, A-Rod in year two as a starter - man, this is looking like it could be fun.

Agreed. The BF saga may not be over though. After all its only April.

[Lurker64]

Agreed. The BF saga may not be over though. After all its only April.

It's over for us though. If he ends up playing for another team, all we have to do is beat him in case we end up playing.

[Deputy Nutz]

Expectations are always molded by circumstances, so I'm hesitant to have specific expectations regarding records.

I will say though that IF this team stays healthy - that is so, so important - then I have hopes that this team will qualify for the playoffs this year. I would almost say "expectations," but what if they did a New England and went 11-5 and missed the playoffs?

But I am jacked about this team and this season. No BF distractions this time, a real defensive coordinator, A-Rod in year two as a starter - man, this is looking like it could be fun.

Agreed. The BF saga may not be over though. After all its only April.


It is over with the Packers though, they have no control over what Favre does, it will have little impact on the organization's prep for the season.

[Deputy Nutz]

I expect us to compete for a playoff spot this year. If we don't, then I'll be disappointed. That's my expectation. My hope is that the offense remains top 10, the defense climbs into the top half of the league, and the special teams is helped by all of the LBs and we are at least average. That would make us an above average team. Super Bowl contender? That's tough. We've only been a legit Super Bowl contender about 4 or 5 times in the last 40+ years.

Well in the last 49 years the Packers have been contenders for the title for 7 years, so basically one out of ever 7 year the Packers have a chance to make the super bowl

two super bowls in 66 and 67, I assume they were contenders a year after they went to Super Bowl II, although I know they had a bunch of injuries, but I am sure they were predicted to finish high.

Then in 1996 they won it. then in 1997 they went to the Super Bowl and were the best team in the NFL. 1995 they were one of the top three out of the NFC to go to the Super Bowl, and also in 1998 as well.


Anyways I agree that they are playoff contender in 2008, that is as high as my expectations go.

[cpk1994]

Agreed. The BF saga may not be over though. After all its only April.

It's over for us though. If he ends up playing for another team, all we have to do is beat him in case we end up playing.Exactly If Favre stays retired, Arron Rodgers is our QB. If Brett plays, Arron Rodgers is our starting QB. He is someone elses headache.