A new wrinkle for the 3-4 defense?

[Patler]

Just a thought:

It is doubtful that Capers (or any other DC running a 3-4) has ever had a collection of DBs as skilled at and experienced in man-to-man coverages as Capers will have this year. There aren't all that many CBs that do it real well, and not that many teams use it as much as the Packers have in recent years. The Packers have a stockpile of physical corners, or at least corners that don't mind that style of play.

Capers is said to be a fairly creative guy in molding his defense to the abilities of his players.

Since he will have a somewhat unusual set of skills among his corners, might he now have the opportunity to fashion a new wrinkle for the 3-4 that uses man coverages much more than typical 3-4s? Ten years from now might people talk about the "Capers/Packers 3-4" as another principle variant of the 3-4 concept?

[RashanGary]

The ravens play a lot of man. The pats used to before the bump rule became more strict.

It's not new. The only corner on our roster that is more man than anything is Harris and he's too old to make a full change for.

Blackmon and Bush are useless. I think Lee is useless. I'm all about scrapping those jokers.

[Patler]

Blackmon and Bush are useless. I think Lee is useless. I'm all about scrapping those jokers.

You keep saying it, so I'll keep responding. You are way, way overboard in your criticisms of Blackmon as a corner. He is not nearly as bad as you imply.

[RashanGary]

I'm really looking forward to seeing Underwood play. OSU thought of him as their best corner prospect before the injuries mounted and the academic issue came up. OSU does a great job training and turning out NFL corners. This guy has had a couple good years of training.

He also had a good year Cincinnati last year.


I look forward to seeing how he develops. We're going to need another legit prospect to go along with Tramon. Right now we just don't have one.

[RashanGary]

Blackmon and Bush are useless. I think Lee is useless. I'm all about scrapping those jokers.

You keep saying it, so I'll keep responding. You are way, way overboard in your criticisms of Blackmon as a corner. He is not nearly as bad as you imply.

Patler, do you watch him play? He played a good number of snaps last year, I don't know the exact percentage but it really dropped off toward the end because he was so bad. He NEVER challenged the ball. Woodson, Harris and Tramon all attack routes and really cover their guy. Blackmon trails behind his guy, lets him catch it and then tackles him every time. I tape most games and I've watched him several times. This sounds like an exaggerated statement but I don't think he's ever made a good play unless you count letting a guy catch the ball and tackling him making a good play.

[RashanGary]

Having Blackmon at corner is like playing with 10 and half guys. The half of him that is supposed to cover isn't there but the half of him that is supposed to tackle is. He cannot see the field and with Capers having a lot of experience with secondaries, I don't think he will. I think Capers will spot it immediately.

[Patler]

The ravens play a lot of man. The pats used to before the bump rule became more strict.

It's not new. The only corner on our roster that is more man than anything is Harris and he's too old to make a full change for.


You are missing the point. It's not that the corners are strictly man guys, but that they are very capable of it and very experienced in it from their years with the Packers. Very few teams in recent years have relied as much on man coverages as the Packers, so other CBs simply do not have the same experience level with it. Good man coverage corners are not that prevalent. The Packers do not have the only ones, but they have gotten to the point that all of the corners are capable of it.

I'm not suggesting that the concept of using some man coverage is new, but rarely has a team had as many CBs as experienced in man coverages as the Packers have and be in the midst of converting to a 3-4. This might give Capers a chance to do some things in a different way, simply because he is introducing a new defense to the players. I don't know what those differences might be, but coordinators are constantly looking for new wrinkles, and Capers might have a chance to do that with a little different set of talents and experiences among his DBs than most 3-4 coordinators have had.

[RashanGary]

I never looked this up, I just remembered never seeign him make a play on defense. I mean NEVER make a play. It sounds like an exaggeration but I can honestly say that my impression was that he never made one single play on defense.

I went and looked it up. Last year he had zero passes defensed and zero intereptions. The guy played dime corner a lot of the year and I think may have even played nickle while Harris was down. Holy shit. That's all I can say. That guy cannot play a down for Capers if he's serious about winning.

[Patler]

Having Blackmon at corner is like playing with 10 and half guys. The half of him that is supposed to cover isn't there but the half of him that is supposed to tackle is. He cannot see the field and with Capers having a lot of experience with secondaries, I don't think he will. I think Capers will spot it immediately.

I think you are way over-critical of Blackmon. He is not nearly as bad as you imply. He is not nearly as bad as some of the nickel and dime DBs the Packers had in the recent past.

[Patler]

I went and looked it up. Last year he had zero passes defensed and zero intereptions. The guy played dime corner a lot of the year and I think may have even played nickle while Harris was down. Holy shit. That's all I can say. That guy cannot play a down for Capers if he's serious about winning.

That's not what the Packer stats show. He had one! :lol:

[RashanGary]

A big part of Capers appeal to me is that he's going to be unpredictable. Sometimes you'll see man. Sometimes you'll see zone. We're not going to make it easy on the play caller and QB by running almost all man. That goes against everything Capers talked about "being unpredictable" when he got here.

We don't have to abandon zone or even avoid it. Our two best corners (Woodson and Williams) can play both. Our best man corner (Harris) is 34 years old. Our other corners are awful at man (don't know about zone).

We obviously disagree about how bad the back end is so you think playing a lot of man to take advantage of the talent we have is a good idea.

I think the real talent we have can play either. Harris can't, but he's old. I think the other talent is not there so go with what Capers wants to run. There is only one player good enough to make that adjustment for and that is Harris but he's too damn old.

I'll bet Capers runs less than EDIT half man.

[RashanGary]

If Harris starts, I'll bet he gets shredded in zone all year long.

[Gunakor]

If Harris starts, I'll bet he gets shredded in zone all year long.

If Harris starts, I'll bet he's playing man coverage almost all year long. They can put him man up on an opponents' #1 WR while the other DB's and the cover LB's can drop into a zone. They can do that for 60 minutes. Mix up the zones, vary the blitzes, but leave Harris in man coverage. If anyone could make that work effectively, Dom could. I wouldn't leave Harris out of the picture just because he struggles in zone.

[Joemailman]

When Darren Perry was hired here, I believed he mentioned that they did play a fair amount of man when he coached in Pittsburgh 2004-2006. I don't think he Steelers corners play press coverage though. They back off. Capers spent last year in New England, and they are known for employing a little bit of everything. I don't think the Packers corners can play primarily zone as long as Harris is one of the starters. Once Harris has moved on though, and likely been replaced by Tramon Williams, look for the Packers to play more zone.

[Packnut]

How's this for a new wrinkle:



STOP THE RUN!


PRESSURE THE QB!

[Deputy Nutz]

The ravens play a lot of man. The pats used to before the bump rule became more strict.

It's not new. The only corner on our roster that is more man than anything is Harris and he's too old to make a full change for.

Blackmon and Bush are useless. I think Lee is useless. I'm all about scrapping those jokers.

Only a useless poster would continue to post the same idea over and over again in different threads. Bush has had his shot, sure. Lee was drafted for his potential in the second round, he is developing a bit slower but certainly will play into the plans of the Packers at some point. Blackmon was a receiver his senior year at Boston College, he has yet to fully develop as a defensive back, plus add in the injuries, he is a fantastic athlete and I agree, he might never develop his potential as a defensive back, but this guy will have a spot on this team because of his potential as a kick returner. He is dynamic.

According to your quick assumption about players, we probably should have given up on Collins as well.

[3irty1]

I think its entirely possible Patler. For one this isn't the first time Capers has been charged with turning around this type of defense. I have to imagine that the Guys the Dolphins had under Jim Bates were also used to playing physical man coverage. With the level our guys play at I'm sure Capers had all kinds of ideas in his head before he even set foot in Green Bay.

Most of us here wondered why we didn't blitz more when we had the ability to play reliable man coverage. Maybe Capers will finally use this to his advantage.

[Patler]

A big part of Capers appeal to me is that he's going to be unpredictable. Sometimes you'll see man. Sometimes you'll see zone. We're not going to make it easy on the play caller and QB by running almost all man. That goes against everything Capers talked about "being unpredictable" when he got here.

We don't have to abandon zone or even avoid it. Our two best corners (Woodson and Williams) can play both. Our best man corner (Harris) is 34 years old. Our other corners are awful at man (don't know about zone).

We obviously disagree about how bad the back end is so you think playing a lot of man to take advantage of the talent we have is a good idea.

I think the real talent we have can play either. Harris can't, but he's old. I think the other talent is not there so go with what Capers wants to run. There is only one player good enough to make that adjustment for and that is Harris but he's too damn old.

I'll bet Capers runs less than EDIT half man.

Good God, I'm sorry I even brought this up. You seem to want to argue that the current group can be conformed into tradition 3-4 schemes. Great. Wonderful. They probably can. I never said they couldn't. But what does that get you?

All I was suggesting is that Capers is going to have a little different group of DBs than most would have, and this might let him be creative in ways that you and I have not thought of. That is all I was suggesting. It might not be in just what he does with the DBs, but in how he incorporates that with other aspects of the defense. He may not use man more often, but he may be able to use it in situations that other 3-4 teams do not, because the other teams do not have the same skill level at man coverages as the Packers have.

If the man coverage skills of the Packers allow them to use man coverages in certain blitz packages that other 3-4 teams do not, that gives the Packers an advantage, and puts them a step ahead of the offensive coordinators for a while.

[KYPack]

You know, all blitz cover was man for many years. LeBeau and Capers pioneered playing zone behind the blitz and created (duh) the zone blitz.

Blitz cover (the old style) was all man and was very aggressive. The idea was to cover much tighter, in fact fronting some of the recievers. The QB is pressured to throw early, so you cover the outlet guys. This works real good if the blitzers get through. If they all get picked up, you are in a world of hurt in man behind the blitz.

Caper likes to send 5 in a fire zone. His cover is a 3-3. The up 3 pick up the hooks & blitz control routes and the back 3 protect the deep routes and prevent long tosses. The shallow guys include one or more DLineman. The deep 3 are 2 corners and a safety or 2S's and one corner.

As far as using a man cover behind the blitzs, my first reaction is why? If we can make the 3-3 work, I don't see the percentage in playing man.

Could ya do it?

Sure.

[Gunakor]

You know, all blitz cover was man for many years. LeBeau and Capers pioneered playing zone behind the blitz and created (duh) the zone blitz.

Blitz cover (the old style) was all man and was very aggressive. The idea was to cover much tighter, in fact fronting some of the recievers. The QB is pressured to throw early, so you cover the outlet guys. This works real good if the blitzers get through. If they all get picked up, you are in a world of hurt in man behind the blitz.

Caper likes to send 5 in a fire zone. His cover is a 3-3. The up 3 pick up the hooks & blitz control routes and the back 3 protect the deep routes and prevent long tosses. The shallow guys include one or more DLineman. The deep 3 are 2 corners and a safety or 2S's and one corner.

As far as using a man cover behind the blitzs, my first reaction is why? If we can make the 3-3 work, I don't see the percentage in playing man.

Could ya do it?

Sure.

The point is to find a use for Al that plays to his strengths. Which is why I suggested a man/zone scheme where Al doesn't have to drop into zone very often, and the other cover guys would drop into a zone around him and the guy he's in man coverage with. You could still vary the blitzes to cause confusion up front, and mix different zone coverages around Al to confuse the quarterback. It's not really a new idea...

[Patler]

You know, all blitz cover was man for many years. LeBeau and Capers pioneered playing zone behind the blitz and created (duh) the zone blitz.

Blitz cover (the old style) was all man and was very aggressive. The idea was to cover much tighter, in fact fronting some of the recievers. The QB is pressured to throw early, so you cover the outlet guys. This works real good if the blitzers get through. If they all get picked up, you are in a world of hurt in man behind the blitz.

Caper likes to send 5 in a fire zone. His cover is a 3-3. The up 3 pick up the hooks & blitz control routes and the back 3 protect the deep routes and prevent long tosses. The shallow guys include one or more DLineman. The deep 3 are 2 corners and a safety or 2S's and one corner.

As far as using a man cover behind the blitzs, my first reaction is why? If we can make the 3-3 work, I don't see the percentage in playing man.

Could ya do it?

Sure.

The point sometimes is to do the unexpected, even if it isn't "new" in a strict sense of the word. If it isn't common now, it is "new" even if it was common 25 years ago. After all, this whole 4-3 to 3-4 to 4-3 now back to 3-4 has gone through many cycles already just in my time (and yours! :lol:)

[RashanGary]

Patler,

I watched Blackmon play an invisible version of defense all last year and each and every game I heard about how he was doing a good job. The guy has never made a play (sorry, 1 pass defended in two years). The point is that he's really, really, really consistently bad. If you could put his film in, you'd see the same thing every time. Blackmon backpeddals, making sure to not get beat deep, WR cuts, makes catch, Blackmon tackles. He never challenges the ball. Never makes a play.

It got very frustrating. Bush is no better. Lee, who knows, maybe. The guy wasn't very good at Auburn from what I read. I don't get it. I took that frustration out here, but those guys stink.

I'm a big Tramon fan. I wouldn't be shocked if he made a probowl or two. Woodson is great. Harris is one of the best one trick ponies to play the position, but I see our depth as horrendous and Harris makes coverages very predictable so he's losing his value because good teams know what's coming and victimize him. I really hope this Underwood kid pans out because we're going to need him (or someone other than the jokers on the back end of this roster) sooner than later.

[Deputy Nutz]

I think some of you are looking at this defense as one demensional, looking at the defensive coaching staff as one demensional. It is my belief that Dom Capers was brought in to utilize the best out each and every one of his players.

Harris excels at man coverage, only a half ass defensive coordinator would claim that it is "my way or the highway." especially this year with such a transition with the 3-4. Harris is still going to be a valuable part to this defense. He isn't a moron either, a lot of his mistakes were miscommunications when the Packers had two young safeties two young linebackers and relatively incompetent defensive coordinator. Harris can play zone he is just superior man to man corner. You take advantage of that if you are a defensive coordinator.

[mission]

Patler -- I appreciate you bringing it up, JH is just excited. That's fine.

Um, I love the idea and hope that it goes down like this. I'd rather have our scheme mold to our team than have guys who aren't maybe the top players in there because they're better at a certain something. Hopefully Capers holds true to his word and stays flexible all season long

[rbaloha1]

Having Blackmon at corner is like playing with 10 and half guys. The half of him that is supposed to cover isn't there but the half of him that is supposed to tackle is. He cannot see the field and with Capers having a lot of experience with secondaries, I don't think he will. I think Capers will spot it immediately.

Blackmon is like Hester -- move him to receiver. Bet he makes an excellent slot. Played wr his senior year I believe.

Give Lee a chance.

[Lurker64]

Blackmon is like Hester -- move him to receiver. Bet he makes an excellent slot. Played wr his senior year I believe.

Wasn't Hester moved to receiver out of desperation, i.e. they didn't have any other WRs so why not try out the guy who's dangerous when he has the ball. The last thing we need is more wide receivers. Blackmon is fine as a KR who is somewhere in the DB rotation, and that's where he's most useful.

There isn't any evidence that Hester is any good as a receiver anyway.

[rbaloha1]

Blackmon is like Hester -- move him to receiver. Bet he makes an excellent slot. Played wr his senior year I believe.

Wasn't Hester moved to receiver out of desperation, i.e. they didn't have any other WRs so why not try out the guy who's dangerous when he has the ball. The last thing we need is more wide receivers. Blackmon is fine as a KR who is somewhere in the DB rotation, and that's where he's most useful.

There isn't any evidence that Hester is any good as a receiver anyway.

Hester is improving as per Jaws during the Draft show.

The issue is not desperation -- Blackmon is terrible as a db. The Packers have larger long stride receivers. Blackmon compliments and imo would be a wonderful slot.

[SnakeLH2006]

The ravens play a lot of man. The pats used to before the bump rule became more strict.

It's not new. The only corner on our roster that is more man than anything is Harris and he's too old to make a full change for.

Blackmon and Bush are useless. I think Lee is useless. I'm all about scrapping those jokers.

Only a useless poster would continue to post the same idea over and over again in different threads. Bush has had his shot, sure. Lee was drafted for his potential in the second round, he is developing a bit slower but certainly will play into the plans of the Packers at some point. Blackmon was a receiver his senior year at Boston College, he has yet to fully develop as a defensive back, plus add in the injuries, he is a fantastic athlete and I agree, he might never develop his potential as a defensive back, but this guy will have a spot on this team because of his potential as a kick returner. He is dynamic.

According to your quick assumption about players, we probably should have given up on Collins as well.

Pretty much that. Snake ain't sold on Blackmon as a CB, yet he might have potential (and just beasts as a PR) so why get rid of him JH? Makes no F'n sense. As far as Lee (WTF are you smoking), that kid played one year...ONE, yet you see him as useless? Took Collins what, 4 years to make an impact, and most rookie CB's or even DB's struggle to acclimate to the schemes (as it's proven to be the toughest position outside of QB to learn). Lee (have no idea if he's boom or bust) but let's see what a 2nd year makes before you throw him into the JH Hall O' Shame. BTW, isn't your screenname JH...didn't you learn anything? :roll:

[packrulz]

The Packers won't be lining up in the 3-4 all the time, they will also line up in the 4-3 from time to time.

[Fritz]

A big part of Capers appeal to me is that he's going to be unpredictable. Sometimes you'll see man. Sometimes you'll see zone. We're not going to make it easy on the play caller and QB by running almost all man. That goes against everything Capers talked about "being unpredictable" when he got here.

We don't have to abandon zone or even avoid it. Our two best corners (Woodson and Williams) can play both. Our best man corner (Harris) is 34 years old. Our other corners are awful at man (don't know about zone).

We obviously disagree about how bad the back end is so you think playing a lot of man to take advantage of the talent we have is a good idea.

I think the real talent we have can play either. Harris can't, but he's old. I think the other talent is not there so go with what Capers wants to run. There is only one player good enough to make that adjustment for and that is Harris but he's too damn old.

I'll bet Capers runs less than EDIT half man.

Good God, I'm sorry I even brought this up. You seem to want to argue that the current group can be conformed into tradition 3-4 schemes. Great. Wonderful. They probably can. I never said they couldn't. But what does that get you?

All I was suggesting is that Capers is going to have a little different group of DBs than most would have, and this might let him be creative in ways that you and I have not thought of. That is all I was suggesting. It might not be in just what he does with the DBs, but in how he incorporates that with other aspects of the defense. He may not use man more often, but he may be able to use it in situations that other 3-4 teams do not, because the other teams do not have the same skill level at man coverages as the Packers have.

If the man coverage skills of the Packers allow them to use man coverages in certain blitz packages that other 3-4 teams do not, that gives the Packers an advantage, and puts them a step ahead of the offensive coordinators for a while.

Coupla things. First, as far as Patler's original question, I would say that I sincerely hope that Capers will tweak the defense to the strengths of his team. In my own opinion, that's what makes a good coach a good coach. Sure, you try to acquire players to fit the system you like, but Capers is not in the player acquisition part of the organization. He's got a bunch of guys who've been trained to play the mano-a-mano and do it rather well. So I do hope he plays to those strengths. That's what would be gained by such a move, KY.

As for how new this might be, if as JH suggests, Capers plays "less than half man," I suggest this new defense be called the "Hermaphrodite" defense. Or, if it's simply an experiment for Capers, it could be called the "bi-curious" defense.

[pbmax]

Now this is a thread. Good job Patler!

Capers said during his introductory press conference that when they were known as Blitzburgh, they were actually blitzing on less than 30% of their plays. So even if, as KYP pointed out, that they continue to use the same 3-3 Zone coverage when blitzing, that leaves a lot of leeway even if you assume he doesn't throw in something new as his base pass coverage.

It has also been revealed that the 3-3 zone is favored on earlier downs even for an expected run play as it puts everyone's eyes on the backfield and helps to prevent long runs.

So my guess is that Al will get to play more man as his front 7 gets better at defending the run. Then when you've got a passing down, the game is on.

And I do not think it will be impossible for Al to play zone. He has largely been asked to cover man since his days in Philly. With training, he will adjust better than he has in the past when zone has been thrown in as situation specific coverage. The more he plays it, the better he gets.

As for Blackmon, JH, the exact kinds of plays you expect him to make (jump routes, attack the ball, get out of the backpedal earlier) are all things that are young players struggle with. When they anticipate with little experience, they are just guessing. His plays on the ball/route/receiver will increase with more playing time. As the return man, he is going to get that chance.

[ND72]

I'm really looking forward to seeing Underwood play. OSU thought of him as their best corner prospect before the injuries mounted and the academic issue came up. OSU does a great job training and turning out NFL corners. This guy has had a couple good years of training.

He also had a good year Cincinnati last year.


I look forward to seeing how he develops. We're going to need another legit prospect to go along with Tramon. Right now we just don't have one.


#1 - Nobody has any idea what Lee can do. Given his opportunities to learn, I still think he's going to come through more and more this year into next year.

#2 - Underwood....will play safety. He struggles to cover Middle School receivers, unless he is a full fledged zone, then he's ok, cause the dude can't move laterally or in a back pedal at all. And yes, I know...I've read plenty, and watched ton of file footage of him getting double moved out of his socks, time and time again.

[KYPack]

Coupla things. First, as far as Patler's original question, I would say that I sincerely hope that Capers will tweak the defense to the strengths of his team. In my own opinion, that's what makes a good coach a good coach. Sure, you try to acquire players to fit the system you like, but Capers is not in the player acquisition part of the organization. He's got a bunch of guys who've been trained to play the mano-a-mano and do it rather well. So I do hope he plays to those strengths. That's what would be gained by such a move, KY.

As for how new this might be, if as JH suggests, Capers plays "less than half man," I suggest this new defense be called the "Hermaphrodite" defense. Or, if it's simply an experiment for Capers, it could be called the "bi-curious" defense.

Firstly, "mano-a-mano" means 'hand to hand' not man to man & I'd hope we at least do some of that this season.
Dom Capers is a flat out brilliant DC. He will take our guys and put them in the best positions to cover and make plays, know that.

A lot will be gained by junking the previous system. We did NOT play man to man last year. It was more of a "box and 2" type thing. The corners played up and in press cover. The other 5 were in a zone system. The LB's were deep and sheltered inside the DE's, with the safeties in the middle of the field and half deep. With 2 safeties deep, it was a bastardized type of cover 2. Last year, Sanders made the radical move of moving one safety over to give Al some help against the bigger WR's. But everybody, from Cris Collinsworth on down the line, called it man. But it wasn't. It was a type of zone. Harris and Wood were playing virtual man, with the rest of the cover guys in a 5 man zone.

That all changes with Capers coming to town. However, the base look will make everybody real comfortable right from the jump. Both corners are right up in the WR's face in a 1 yard technique. The two OLB's are right at the line and the two ILB's are also much closer to the LOS. The safeties are staggered with one guy in the robber position, ala Polumalu. It's a real aggressive, and requires instant recognition and solid teamwork. When one guy is off or doesn't know exactly what to do, the whole thing falls apart. There are great strengths in this system and big weaknesses, also.

The big area of vulnerability is the seams. There are ready made gashes in this system. The distance between defenders is more than in conventional cover 2's and strong side rotations. The DC's try to disguise these gaps and change things up, but you still get caught from time to time. When you do, it's f'ing ugly.

The idea that we will implement a whole new scheme and also retain some man cover is nutso to me. There is a lot of virtual man in their base cover, but a lot of this D is dictated by the looks. When a blitz happens on Al's opposite side, he has to roll back in the deep 3. I don't give a shit if he is the press cover king. For this D to function, all 11 guys must know instinctively what to do and where to go, personal skills aside.

There will be a transition period, sure. But over time, the guys must learn this D and have all 11 players move as one creature. Otherwise, it won't work.

Fritz, I do like the idea of the "Hermaphrodite" D.

Skin likes it, too.

[Fritz]

Like many, many phrases in any language, literal meanings get lost and new meanings become conventional. This is the case with "mano a mano," which does literally mean "hand to hand" but has taken on the meaning "man to man" in English. As Christopher Hitchens pointed out recently, the word Romeo now refers to a man who is a philanderer, someone adept at romancing women, yet the Shakespearean character was a devoted, loyal romantic.

So, okay. Enough of that. As for the rest, I bow to your expertise on the matter or coverage. I confess to being a mere fan in that realm - I trust your words on the topic.

And I'm glad your like my phraseology.

[cpk1994]

Like many, many phrases in any language, literal meanings get lost and new meanings become conventional. This is the case with "mano a mano," which does literally mean "hand to hand" but has taken on the meaning "man to man" in English. As Christopher Hitchens pointed out recently, the word Romeo now refers to a man who is a philanderer, someone adept at romancing women, yet the Shakespearean character was a devoted, loyal romantic.

So, okay. Enough of that. As for the rest, I bow to your expertise on the matter or coverage. I confess to being a mere fan in that realm - I trust your words on the topic.

And I'm glad your like my phraseology.This has been "Fritz's Wisdom of the Day".

[Fritz]

Like many, many phrases in any language, literal meanings get lost and new meanings become conventional. This is the case with "mano a mano," which does literally mean "hand to hand" but has taken on the meaning "man to man" in English. As Christopher Hitchens pointed out recently, the word Romeo now refers to a man who is a philanderer, someone adept at romancing women, yet the Shakespearean character was a devoted, loyal romantic.

So, okay. Enough of that. As for the rest, I bow to your expertise on the matter or coverage. I confess to being a mere fan in that realm - I trust your words on the topic.

And I'm glad your like my phraseology.This has been "Fritz's Wisdom of the Day".

Thank you. Thank you all.

[KYPack]

Fritz, I was more trying to smoke out a "Spanish speaking" member who doesn't post much on here anymore, than call you out. You were right, after all, but that don't count much on PR.

As far as "hand to hand" or 'man to man', what does TT say?

Quote on

Fullback Quinn Johnson of Louisiana State in the fifth. The addition of Johnson speaks directly to the desire to be physical.

"SEC football, you hear a lot about it, but it is a physical league," Thompson said, referring to the Southeastern Conference. "And you watch games like LSU against Alabama, and it's mano-a-mano. He's a very, very effective lead blocker. He's a physical presence. He was a running back who rushed for over 1,000 yards (in high school).

"He's got a skill set, and he's a big, physical guy."

Quote off

TT speaks, case closed.

[Maxie the Taxi]

IMHO in today's game it all starts with pressure on the QB. All you have to do is look at last year's post-season. The teams that got to the QB or at least hurried him the most advanced. We expected it out of Pittsburgh, but Arizona was a surprise...at least to me.

I don't know as much about X's and O's as you guys. In fact, I know next to nothing technical.

But I suspect if the Packers can't pressure the QB this year, it won't make a whole lot of difference whether the corners and safeties are playing man or zone. They'll get smoked.

(Very, very interesting thread, though.)

[mraynrand]

I didn't read all of the thread, so if this is redundant, sorry.

One aspect of bringing pressure that cannot be underestimated is down and distance. If you have 3rd and 7 or more, you can being the extra guy, because you almost assuredly force the QB to take the quick read, the dump off and then all you have to do is make the tackle it's a 5 yard gain and they are punting. You cannot do that on third and short. That's just for third down really. But the obvious point is that you have to stop the run on first and second down (or the pass on first and second down). All the other pressure packages and coverages you are talking about here are a bit different for fist and second and long, because you don't want to give up an easy 5-6 yards on 1st or 2nd down.

[KYPack]

IMHO in today's game it all starts with pressure on the QB. All you have to do is look at last year's post-season. The teams that got to the QB or at least hurried him the most advanced. We expected it out of Pittsburgh, but Arizona was a surprise...at least to me.

I don't know as much about X's and O's as you guys. In fact, I know next to nothing technical.

But I suspect if the Packers can't pressure the QB this year, it won't make a whole lot of difference whether the corners and safeties are playing man or zone. They'll get smoked.

(Very, very interesting thread, though.)

100% right, Maxie.

The old saying is, "It ain't the X's and the O's, it's the Jim's and the Joe's".

Forget all the fancy shit, if you can stop the run and pressure the hell out of the QB, you will have a successful defense.

[Fritz]

Fritz, I was more trying to smoke out a "Spanish speaking" member who doesn't post much on here anymore, than call you out. You were right, after all, but that don't count much on PR.

As far as "hand to hand" or 'man to man', what does TT say?

Quote on

Fullback Quinn Johnson of Louisiana State in the fifth. The addition of Johnson speaks directly to the desire to be physical.

"SEC football, you hear a lot about it, but it is a physical league," Thompson said, referring to the Southeastern Conference. "And you watch games like LSU against Alabama, and it's mano-a-mano. He's a very, very effective lead blocker. He's a physical presence. He was a running back who rushed for over 1,000 yards (in high school).

"He's got a skill set, and he's a big, physical guy."

Quote off

TT speaks, case closed.

Hey, where'd my self esteem go?

Oh, there it is - in the toilet.... :cry:

Seriously, though, it'll be interesting to see if this year's version is or is seen as more physical. As Coach Bo used to say, "Let's smaish 'em in the mouf."

[texaspackerbacker]

I will come down squarely on the Patler side of this.What people seem to forget in knocking Packer Corners is where they rank on the team. Show me a team with 3 better man coverage guys than Woodson, Harris, and Williams. Blackmon as a 4th Corner? I doubt many team have better. The much maligned Bush as a 5th or 6th Corner? I would call the guy borderline adequate. A lot of teams start guys like that. As a 5th or 6th best on the team? What do you expect? And Lee? It's perfectly stupid to write him off as a bust when the jury is still completely out on him. He seems to have potential, and he hasn't had enough time on the field.

Some people in this thread have been spewing the old line that it's all about stopping the run and rushing the passer. No Hell no. What it's all about is keeping the other side out of the end zone and generating turnovers. Bend-don't-break pass coverage is far superior to blitz/sack-blitz/sack-blitz/oops bomb for TD.

I have been saying since day one of the 3-4 YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO STUPIDLY BLITZ-HAPPY AND ZONE COVERAGE just because you use 3-4. It is a great run stopping defense--an area where we were admittedly weak last season. A lot of that run-stopping weakness last season, though, was caused by the injuries that ruined the season. Rushing one LB in the 3-4 does NOT constitute relying on the blitz. It merely disguises where the 4 man rush is coming from. Throw in a 5th pass rusher fairly rarely, fine. You do that in a 4-3 too, depending on the circumstance and opposition. The point is, all of that can be done without departing from the traditional man coverage most of the time concept. And even if Capers, creative genius that we all hope he is, comes up with a tricky zone for change of pace, fine too. I just don't want to see the Packers start relying on zone coverage--and I'm pretty sure they won't.

[mraynrand]

Seriously, though, it'll be interesting to see if this year's version is or is seen as more physical. As Coach Bo used to say, "Let's smaish 'em in the mouf."

As Jerry Glandville would say: "I'm all the way up here in the box and I can still hear the smackin'"

[mraynrand]

Bend-don't-break pass coverage is far superior to blitz/sack-blitz/sack-blitz/oops bomb for TD. ... I just don't want to see the Packers start relying on zone coverage--and I'm pretty sure they won't.

I don't see the Packers moving too far away from their press coverage either, but 'bend don't break' pass coverage screams zone.

[Gunakor]

I just don't want to see the Packers start relying on zone coverage--and I'm pretty sure they won't.

I'm pretty sure they will. Eventually. As you say, we have press corners on our roster at the moment. But 2 of those press corners are into the twighlight of their careers, and the guys we draft to replace them are not going to be press corners.

As we move from a hybrid 3-4/4-3 to a more pure 3-4 going forward, I expect to see the exclusive press coverage we've seen for years phazed out in favor of cover 3 type zone coverages. That's not to say we won't ever line our corners up in man coverage, but it's not going to be nearly as often that we do. Once Chuck and Al are done playing then we won't have the 2 best press corners in the NFL anymore.

There's no point in sticking to the press scheme if we don't have the guys to execute that scheme. Tell Tampa's corners to play strictly press and see how good they do. Probably about as well as if you asked our corners to play the Tampa 2. Capers said he's going to mold this defense to fit the strengths of the players, so I'd expect to see plenty of press this year and next given the players we have on our roster. But as TT/MM draft corners who excel in zone, and after Chuck and Al are done playing, molding the defense to the strengths of it's players means we'll be primarily a zone coverage team. And as long as we have the players to execute that zone coverage, there won't be any problem. Right?

[BobDobbs]

I know that the debate on this thread is mostly about our corners. But last year I thought our biggest coverage liability was our line backers combined with the scheme. After the New Orleans game when people wanted to move the ball through the air they ran TE, slot receivers and RBs on short to intermediate routes and ate us up in the middle of the field.

I mean Al had a bad day against Detroit and Woodson got beaten by Steve Smith to cost us the game, but our corners from one to three were really solid and not much responsible for all our late game collapses.

As far as depth rising to a starting position. Bush will never be the preferred starter. I'd be surprised if Blackmon rises further than a nickel. Lee looks like he physically has it. He just had no idea what the fuck was going on last year.

So, we've got two good/great corners for this year and maybe next, an heir apparent at nickel and some developmental guys who can earn their keep on special teams. Also, a coach that may be able to scheme underneath coverage to deny the short routes that killed us last year. Sounds pretty good to me.

[sharpe1027]

I know that the debate on this thread is mostly about our corners. But last year I thought our biggest coverage liability was our line backers combined with the scheme. After the New Orleans game when people wanted to move the ball through the air they ran TE, slot receivers and RBs on short to intermediate routes and ate us up in the middle of the field.


Good point. IMO, requiring your LBers to cover the TE in man coverage for any period of time is asking for trouble. Chillar was actually damn good at coverage, but I got sick of watching teams run their TE across the field until the LBer inevitably got into a trail position. Of course, that usually takes time to develop and with consistent pressure that time might not be there... :wink:

[RashanGary]

I know that the debate on this thread is mostly about our corners. But last year I thought our biggest coverage liability was our line backers combined with the scheme. After the New Orleans game when people wanted to move the ball through the air they ran TE, slot receivers and RBs on short to intermediate routes and ate us up in the middle of the field.


Good point. IMO, requiring your LBers to cover the TE in man coverage for any period of time is asking for trouble. Chillar was actually damn good at coverage, but I got sick of watching teams run their TE across the field until the LBer inevitably got into a trail position. Of course, that usually takes time to develop and with consistent pressure that time might not be there... :wink:

Good observation. Those routes killed us all year. They do take time to develop and they weren't a problem two years ago when we had a pass rush.

[Fritz]

I know that the debate on this thread is mostly about our corners. But last year I thought our biggest coverage liability was our line backers combined with the scheme. After the New Orleans game when people wanted to move the ball through the air they ran TE, slot receivers and RBs on short to intermediate routes and ate us up in the middle of the field.


Good point. IMO, requiring your LBers to cover the TE in man coverage for any period of time is asking for trouble. Chillar was actually damn good at coverage, but I got sick of watching teams run their TE across the field until the LBer inevitably got into a trail position. Of course, that usually takes time to develop and with consistent pressure that time might not be there... :wink:

Good observation. Those routes killed us all year. They do take time to develop and they weren't a problem two years ago when we had a pass rush.

To my untrained eye, this seemed to be so. How many, many times did a running back or tight end trail across the middle, with Desmond Howard or Brady Poppinga or _______ (fill in the blank with the linebacker du jour) dutifully huffing along, a step or two behind....

[SnakeLH2006]

To my untrained eye, this seemed to be so. How many, many times did a running back or tight end trail across the middle, with Desmond Howard or Brady Poppinga or _______ (fill in the blank with the linebacker du jour) dutifully huffing along, a step or two behind....

Desmond's back?? Someone wake up Bretsky, we just signed out first big-name FA!!! Yeah!! :lol:

[Gunakor]

To my untrained eye, this seemed to be so. How many, many times did a running back or tight end trail across the middle, with Desmond Howard or Brady Poppinga or _______ (fill in the blank with the linebacker du jour) dutifully huffing along, a step or two behind....

Desmond's back?? Someone wake up Bretsky, we just signed out first big-name FA!!! Yeah!! :lol:

If we signed Desmond to play linebacker, we're in trouble. Real trouble. That guy is like 160 wearing wet jeans and boots. Probably fast enough to catch Adrian Peterson from behind, but only if the guy blocking him lets him get up off the turf.

[SnakeLH2006]

To my untrained eye, this seemed to be so. How many, many times did a running back or tight end trail across the middle, with Desmond Howard or Brady Poppinga or _______ (fill in the blank with the linebacker du jour) dutifully huffing along, a step or two behind....

Desmond's back?? Someone wake up Bretsky, we just signed out first big-name FA!!! Yeah!! :lol:

If we signed Desmond to play linebacker, we're in trouble. Real trouble. That guy is like 160 wearing wet jeans and boots. Probably fast enough to catch Adrian Peterson from behind, but only if the guy blocking him lets him get up off the turf.

Hate to hijack this thread, but Desmond Howard was far from a burner, just real shifty, as Woodson used to be but looks slow and crafty now (agile gamer I like to say and love him) but look at the speed of young Woody 6 years the junior of Desmond.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQy2ohW9OaI

Desmond couldn't catch AP on his best day, but if he's our 40 year old LB now at 160, we are fucked. Seems all this heat from Bretsky to sign a name guy did us in. TT caved. :lol:

[Gunakor]

To my untrained eye, this seemed to be so. How many, many times did a running back or tight end trail across the middle, with Desmond Howard or Brady Poppinga or _______ (fill in the blank with the linebacker du jour) dutifully huffing along, a step or two behind....

Desmond's back?? Someone wake up Bretsky, we just signed out first big-name FA!!! Yeah!! :lol:

If we signed Desmond to play linebacker, we're in trouble. Real trouble. That guy is like 160 wearing wet jeans and boots. Probably fast enough to catch Adrian Peterson from behind, but only if the guy blocking him lets him get up off the turf.

Hate to hijack this thread, but Desmond Howard was far from a burner, just real shifty, as Woodson used to be but looks slow and crafty now (agile gamer I like to say and love him) but look at the speed of young Woody 6 years the junior of Desmond.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQy2ohW9OaI

Desmond couldn't catch AP on his best day, but if he's our 40 year old LB now at 160, we are fucked. Seems all this heat from Bretsky to sign a name guy did us in. TT caved. :lol:

He was pretty fast back in the mid 90's. Not Devin Hester fast, but he wasn't slow by any means. You didn't see Howard being caught from behind very often at all.

AP was an exaggeration. Though Nick Collins caught him from behind once to prevent a TD. Howard might have back in the day, I don't know. Certainly not today though.