VICK DA GREAT

[MOBB DEEP]

now that he's released from prison hopefully he can get his life back in order and be given a chance to continue his career

i think it was awesome that the great man tony dungy visited him a couple of weeks ago to discuss life after jail (1st book quiet strength is excellent and is one of the publications we've read and continue to reference in my small group at church). there are more important things in life than sports and im sure dungy addressed that with vick; he's a creation of God first and foremost and im sure he's seeking HIS forgiveness.

unfortunately, it will be MUCH harder obtaining the forgiveness of many individuals who will continue to despise him as a result of his previous behaviors. im grossed out by dog fighting, as well as any other killings and macabre undertakings (including hunting).

personally, i feel spousal abuse and even infidelity are more deleterious acts perpetrated by many athletes and laymen alike. many ppl who probably want him banned for life do and have done worse things depending on one's moral compass.

here's to vick having learned his lesson and getn back on the right track; would love to see him entertaining me with his dazzln ahtleticism again. just PLEASE not in a playoff game at lambeau; dayum, that still stings - sherman was terrible......unless, of course, he's wearing green....its going to take a strong owner to bring him in for sure. or one who's not as concerend about his peer's opinion of him ala al davis

.....anyway....


GET VICK!!!

[Scott Campbell]

many ppl who probably want him banned for life do and have done worse things depending on one's moral compass.


We shouldn't listen to these people. They're naughty.

[MOBB DEEP]

he he....it's actually kinda amazn how folk rallied so ardently against vick da great but SO many other injustices, to numerous to list, go overlooked ...they act like he molested boys or beat rodney king to a bloody pulp

[Scott Campbell]

Ok. So he should be allowed to play football because he's not an ax murderer or a pedophile.

Let's not go setting the bar too high for these guys.

[Zool]

I still want to go to one of these anti-Vick rallies and say the name Rae Carruth and see how many people there even know who he is.

[Scott Campbell]

I still want to go to one of these anti-Vick rallies and say the name Rae Carruth and see how many people there even know who he is.


God, would you let it go already?

Carruth hasn't had any pregnant women murdered for years.

[Zool]

I still want to go to one of these anti-Vick rallies and say the name Rae Carruth and see how many people there even know who he is.


God, would you let it go already?

Carruth hasn't murdered any pregnant women for years.

Fixed

[Harlan Huckleby]

I certainly hope Vick gets a new start.

We allow hunting of animals that are as smart as dogs. Pigs are smarter than dogs, and their killings have not always been so sensitive in slaughter houses.

What Vick did was disgusting and a crime. His punishment was about right and the matter is over. IT would be hypocritical to turn his actions into a capital crime when most of us accept that animals are there for our use.

[mraynrand]

I think Vick could benefit from the love of a companion animal. Choose one:

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254/mraynrand/goldenpuppiescopy.jpg

[ND72]

We allow hunting of animals that are as smart as dogs. Pigs are smarter than dogs, and their killings have not always been so sensitive in slaughter houses.



So I know where you're going with this...but in no way is hunting and what Vick did comparable in any thought. dog fighting is disgusting, and I would prefer we let those dogs go off on the people who did this to them, and just let them be eatten, but that's me.

I would prefer Vick be banned for life from the NFL, and anything else, and he just fades away and has to live on the streets. But I would find it a bit funny if he ended up playing for the Browns.

[Fritz]

What about cock fighting? Is that okay?

[Harlan Huckleby]

Fritz, there was a pic in the garbage can recently, you'll have to judge for yourself.

[Zool]

(queue up pic by Skin in 5.....4.....3)

[Harlan Huckleby]

So I know where you're going with this...but in no way is hunting and what Vick did comparable in any thought.

I guess that depends on your point of view. I'm thinking of the first "Planet of the Apes" movie where the hairy apes hunt the humans.

That movie was deep, man.

[Gunakor]

many ppl who probably want him banned for life do and have done worse things depending on one's moral compass.


Ah, yes. Most likely. Depending on one's moral compass.

But according to the law, most of us have not. Moral compass is irrelevant where the law is concerned. He spent a year and a half in a federal prison, something most of us who want him banned for life have not experienced. That means he fucked up way worse than we have, regardless of one's moral compass.

Ban him. Though, I don't think they'll have to. What team is in such dire need of an average QB with exceptional running ability that they'd put up with the amount of publicity that would come with it?

[Scott Campbell]

I certainly hope Vick gets a new start.


He is getting a new start. But that may, or may not include the privilege of playing in the NFL. I don't want him on our team.

[Scott Campbell]

What team is in such dire need of an average QB with exceptional running ability that they'd put up with the amount of publicity that would come with it?


The Raiders? The Broncos?

[Scott Campbell]

I think Vick could benefit from the love of a companion animal. Choose one:

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254/mraynrand/goldenpuppiescopy.jpg


My choice:

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/images/avatars/145672441549bb3f3e9aff7.gif

[swede]

Roger Goodell is a pretty high bar to get over.

If Roger is satisfied, I'm satisfied. The judicial system acted, Vick paid his debt, and he is free to go where anyone wants him IF anyone wants him.

[Gunakor]

What team is in such dire need of an average QB with exceptional running ability that they'd put up with the amount of publicity that would come with it?


The Raiders? The Broncos?

The Raiders are still paying JaMarcus Russell a gazillion dollars. They wouldn't look at Vick. Not because they don't like bad character guys, but because they have the QB Mr. Davis covets already.

The Broncos never struck me as a team Vick would be a good fit for. Both Kyle Orton and Chris Simms are better fits for the offense they prefer to run. They are both better passers. Vick is an incredible athlete, but he's not the greatest passer. I think Vick to Denver is an experiment doomed to fail.

[Scott Campbell]

Roger Goodell is a pretty high bar to get over.

If Roger is satisfied, I'm satisfied. The judicial system acted, Vick paid his debt, and he is free to go where anyone wants him IF anyone wants him.


Agreed Mr. Swede. Though I don't want him in GB.

[Scott Campbell]

What team is in such dire need of an average QB with exceptional running ability that they'd put up with the amount of publicity that would come with it?


The Raiders? The Broncos?

The Raiders are still paying JaMarcus Russell a gazillion dollars. They wouldn't look at Vick. Not because they don't like bad character guys, but because they have the QB Mr. Davis covets already.

The Broncos never struck me as a team Vick would be a good fit for. Both Kyle Orton and Chris Simms are better fits for the offense they prefer to run. They are both better passers. Vick is an incredible athlete, but he's not the greatest passer. I think Vick to Denver is an experiment doomed to fail.


My point is that I think it's pretty likely that some QB desperate team will bite if he gets reinstated.

[Cheesehead Craig]

I think a team will take a gamble with him and sign him should he get reinstated, which I think he should be.

[Scott Campbell]

I think a team will take a gamble with him and sign him should he get reinstated, which I think he should be.

The question is when. I'd be a bit surprised if Roger let him play this year.

[Patler]

I think a team will take a gamble with him and sign him should he get reinstated, which I think he should be.

But when should he be reinstated? For 2009? Why?

Maybe he has "paid his debt to society" but does that mean he has paid his debt to the NFL? The NFL routinely suspends players for things for which they pay no debt to society. Isn't it reasonable that his debt to the riches of the NFL is greater than what he has paid already? After all, the success of the NFL is based a lot on public relations, image, etc. Isn't it reasonable to require that Vick prove he is a new person for some period of time outside of the prison environment before the NFL opens their arms to him?

I'm not in favor of a lifetime ban, and I understand how short a span of time that an NFL career encompasses. Nevertheless, I will be disappointed if he is reinstated before the 2010 season, and if he screws up at all before then, delay it at least another year.

He has to earn his right back in to the NFL, not simply receive it for having sat in the controlled environment of a Federal prison.

[Pacopete4]

I think a team will take a gamble with him and sign him should he get reinstated, which I think he should be.

The question is when. I'd be a bit surprised if Roger let him play this year.


I'm not sure I'd really be surprised because I saw that Goodel is going to take the advice of others when making his decision and it seems as though Dungy, who is a highly respected man in the NFL, will give Vick his blessing to be reinstated. That could really go a long way.

My take is, the guy has been away long enough, let him try to piece back his life. As brutal as the dog killing stuff was, its not the worst anyones done and hes probably been away longer.

[Scott Campbell]

I think a team will take a gamble with him and sign him should he get reinstated, which I think he should be.

The question is when. I'd be a bit surprised if Roger let him play this year.


I'm not sure I'd really be surprised because I saw that Goodel is going to take the advice of others when making his decision and it seems as though Dungy, who is a highly respected man in the NFL, will give Vick his blessing to be reinstated. That could really go a long way.

My take is, the guy has been away long enough, let him try to piece back his life. As brutal as the dog killing stuff was, its not the worst anyones done and hes probably been away longer.



If I'm Roger I wouldn't put any stock in Dungy's lobbying. Who asked him anyway? I woudn't want to encourage any other guys to butt in on NFL business.

[Pacopete4]

If I'm Roger I wouldn't put any stock in Dungy's lobbying. Who asked him anyway? I woudn't want to encourage any other guys to butt in on NFL business.

Well, Roger is going to be the one asking him haha. I think he'll be asking others along with Dungy too. I think its more that hes asking if they think hes remorse and ready to become apart of society again as a positive person. I'm not sure if hes going to flat out ask him if he would reinstate him. I'm the kinda guy that agrees with using all of your resources I guess.

[Scott Campbell]

I'm the kinda guy that agrees with using all of your resources I guess.


And I'm the kind of guy that wouldn't allow a convicted felon to play in my league immediately upon his release from federal prison.

[Patler]

I'm the kinda guy that agrees with using all of your resources I guess.


And I'm the kind of guy that wouldn't allow a convicted felon to play in my league immediately upon his release from federal prison.

The ankle bracelet will probably violate the NFL uniform dress code anyway.

[Scott Campbell]

I'm the kinda guy that agrees with using all of your resources I guess.


And I'm the kind of guy that wouldn't allow a convicted felon to play in my league immediately upon his release from federal prison.

The ankle bracelet will probably violate the NFL uniform dress code anyway.


Does he really have an ankle bracelet?

[Patler]

I'm the kinda guy that agrees with using all of your resources I guess.


And I'm the kind of guy that wouldn't allow a convicted felon to play in my league immediately upon his release from federal prison.

The ankle bracelet will probably violate the NFL uniform dress code anyway.


Does he really have an ankle bracelet?

I don't know, but supposedly he was released this morning, and is under house arrest for a month at least. They often use the bracelet in those situations, but it would probably be gone by camp time. I was just kidding.

[Cheesehead Craig]

I think a team will take a gamble with him and sign him should he get reinstated, which I think he should be.

But when should he be reinstated? For 2009? Why?

Maybe he has "paid his debt to society" but does that mean he has paid his debt to the NFL? The NFL routinely suspends players for things for which they pay no debt to society. Isn't it reasonable that his debt to the riches of the NFL is greater than what he has paid already? After all, the success of the NFL is based a lot on public relations, image, etc. Isn't it reasonable to require that Vick prove he is a new person for some period of time outside of the prison environment before the NFL opens their arms to him?

I'm not in favor of a lifetime ban, and I understand how short a span of time that an NFL career encompasses. Nevertheless, I will be disappointed if he is reinstated before the 2010 season, and if he screws up at all before then, delay it at least another year.

He has to earn his right back in to the NFL, not simply receive it for having sat in the controlled environment of a Federal prison.
Whoa Whoa Whoa there big fella. I just said I'm for the NFL reinstating him and that some team will sign him. No need to get all jumpy on me.

The NFL certainly has suspended players for far lesser crimes. Would they be willing to continue a suspension for a player coming out of a 23 mo prison sentence is the question. On that I don't know. I would certainly agree that he'll have to still prove himself to teams (and the NFL corporate) to show he's been "rehabilitated" and still has the skills for the position.

I do think though that a league that reinstated Ricky Williams certainly has room to bring in Vick.

[Patler]

I think a team will take a gamble with him and sign him should he get reinstated, which I think he should be.

But when should he be reinstated? For 2009? Why?

Maybe he has "paid his debt to society" but does that mean he has paid his debt to the NFL? The NFL routinely suspends players for things for which they pay no debt to society. Isn't it reasonable that his debt to the riches of the NFL is greater than what he has paid already? After all, the success of the NFL is based a lot on public relations, image, etc. Isn't it reasonable to require that Vick prove he is a new person for some period of time outside of the prison environment before the NFL opens their arms to him?

I'm not in favor of a lifetime ban, and I understand how short a span of time that an NFL career encompasses. Nevertheless, I will be disappointed if he is reinstated before the 2010 season, and if he screws up at all before then, delay it at least another year.

He has to earn his right back in to the NFL, not simply receive it for having sat in the controlled environment of a Federal prison.
Whoa Whoa Whoa there big fella. I just said I'm for the NFL reinstating him and that some team will sign him. No need to get all jumpy on me.

The NFL certainly has suspended players for far lesser crimes. Would they be willing to continue a suspension for a player coming out of a 23 mo prison sentence is the question. On that I don't know. I would certainly agree that he'll have to still prove himself to teams (and the NFL corporate) to show he's been "rehabilitated" and still has the skills for the position.

I do think though that a league that reinstated Ricky Williams certainly has room to bring in Vick.

Who was getting all jumpy? I just wanted to expand the discussion to a timing issue and the factors to be considered. You had the most recent post in favor of reinstatement, so I used it to raise the questions. I would suggest that perhaps you shouldn't be all jumpy! :lol:

That being said, as I wrote, I am in favor of reinstatement, but not before 2010 at the earliest. Sitting in prison for 2 years proved nothing. The last thing the NFL needs is to reinstate him, only to discover that he has not been rehabilitated. They can never be sure, but a years' history of him in a regular society will at least give them something upon which to base their decision.

[mraynrand]

I'm the kinda guy that agrees with using all of your resources I guess.


And I'm the kind of guy that wouldn't allow a convicted felon to play in my league immediately upon his release from federal prison.

The ankle bracelet will probably violate the NFL uniform dress code anyway.

No worries - after all, 'Ole Cleedeeus never got any troubles for wearing his bling

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254/mraynrand/CleditusBling.jpg

[Scott Campbell]

No worries - after all, 'Ole Cleedeeus never got any troubles for wearing his bling.


That was Greenday's favorite picture.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Who was getting all jumpy? I just wanted to expand the discussion to a timing issue and the factors to be considered. You had the most recent post in favor of reinstatement, so I used it to raise the questions. I would suggest that perhaps you shouldn't be all jumpy! :lol:

Let's all get jumpy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHmYMLflRGk&feature=related

[Chevelle2]

I too, think he should be allowed back in.

But I wonder if whichever team picks him up will keep him at the QB position? Thoughts?

[DonHutson]

I still want to go to one of these anti-Vick rallies and say the name Rae Carruth and see how many people there even know who he is. years.

I don't get it. It's not like they let Carruth play and not Vick. If people don't recognize the name its because killing somebody is the only noteworthy thing Carruth ever did.

[Zool]

I still want to go to one of these anti-Vick rallies and say the name Rae Carruth and see how many people there even know who he is. years.

I don't get it. It's not like they let Carruth play and not Vick. If people don't recognize the name its because killing somebody is the only noteworthy thing Carruth ever did.

Michael Vick killed dogs and there was a huge outcry. Rae Carruth took 2 human lives and it was barely a blip on the radar of the world.

[Joemailman]

I think Vick could benefit from the love of a companion animal. Choose one:

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254/mraynrand/goldenpuppiescopy.jpg

Can they fight?

[SkinBasket]

I too, think he should be allowed back in.

But I wonder if whichever team picks him up will keep him at the QB position? Thoughts?

I think Oakland needs to pick him up, trade for the benched Vince Young, and run the Three Fanged Blackcat offense with Russell.

[cpk1994]

I still want to go to one of these anti-Vick rallies and say the name Rae Carruth and see how many people there even know who he is. years.

I don't get it. It's not like they let Carruth play and not Vick. If people don't recognize the name its because killing somebody is the only noteworthy thing Carruth ever did.

Michael Vick killed dogs and there was a huge outcry. Rae Carruth took 2 human lives and it was barely a blip on the radar of the world.It's all PETA's fault. Damn them to hell.

[Patler]

Michael Vick killed dogs and there was a huge outcry. Rae Carruth took 2 human lives and it was barely a blip on the radar of the world.

I remember a lot of coverage about Carruth. But with Carruth it seemed pretty clear what his fate would be from the day he skipped out on bail. He would be going to prison for a long time. With Vick there was an initial concern that he would get only a slap on the wrist. Once Carruth was sentenced to a minimum of 20 years people felt a certain amount of justice, although I am sure it will resurface when a parole hearing is held. NFL fans knew he would never be back, Vick of course might be.

On a side note, wasn't there only one death? Didn't they save the baby, but with significant health problems? I think only the mother died, but I could be wrong.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

This is ridiculous. Mike Vick should be allowed to return to the NFL.

How long was Leonard Little prevented from playing after he killed a person drunk driving? :roll:

BTW, Mr. Little had another DUI after the incident...NFL did nothing.

[Joemailman]

Michael Vick killed dogs and there was a huge outcry. Rae Carruth took 2 human lives and it was barely a blip on the radar of the world.

I remember a lot of coverage about Carruth. But with Carruth it seemed pretty clear what his fate would be from the day he skipped out on bail. He would be going to prison for a long time. With Vick there was an initial concern that he would get only a slap on the wrist. Once Carruth was sentenced to a minimum of 20 years people felt a certain amount of justice, although I am sure it will resurface when a parole hearing is held. NFL fans knew he would never be back, Vick of course might be.

On a side note, wasn't there only one death? Didn't they save the baby, but with significant health problems? I think only the mother died, but I could be wrong.

The baby survived, but has cerebral palsy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rae_Carruth

[Zool]

Michael Vick killed dogs and there was a huge outcry. Rae Carruth took 2 human lives and it was barely a blip on the radar of the world.

I remember a lot of coverage about Carruth. But with Carruth it seemed pretty clear what his fate would be from the day he skipped out on bail. He would be going to prison for a long time. With Vick there was an initial concern that he would get only a slap on the wrist. Once Carruth was sentenced to a minimum of 20 years people felt a certain amount of justice, although I am sure it will resurface when a parole hearing is held. NFL fans knew he would never be back, Vick of course might be.

On a side note, wasn't there only one death? Didn't they save the baby, but with significant health problems? I think only the mother died, but I could be wrong.

If you are an NFL fan you knew all about the Carruth case. Otherwise it would be a mystery to about 95% of the rest of the population. There were no Rae Carruth chew toys etc.....The Vick case was much more wide spread. The point I'm trying to make is how people seem to value the lives of dogs more than people when it comes to their outrage. People are dying daily from gang violence but I don't see nearly as many people outraged by that as were by Vick killing dogs. I have friends who couldnt care less about sports who knew tons of details about the case. When I asked them what they thought should be done about the Detroit and DC murder rates, they pretty much said nothing.

[Freak Out]

If he can survive a pit fight with White Fang he should be allowed to play again.

http://www.ukwolf.org/content/product_images/xlarge/thumbs/white-fang_thumb_609.jpg

[Joemailman]

And Cujo

http://powxxa.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pNYaQ9hz-J_4whNyi_9tmLyW2ry1s6Su1JLcf5mWtoM716W6EQz8q4nmxcG C55jajog0O4yAqZWI/Cujo_El_Perro_Infernal.jpg

[mraynrand]

Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war!

[MJZiggy]

Michael Vick killed dogs and there was a huge outcry. Rae Carruth took 2 human lives and it was barely a blip on the radar of the world.

I remember a lot of coverage about Carruth. But with Carruth it seemed pretty clear what his fate would be from the day he skipped out on bail. He would be going to prison for a long time. With Vick there was an initial concern that he would get only a slap on the wrist. Once Carruth was sentenced to a minimum of 20 years people felt a certain amount of justice, although I am sure it will resurface when a parole hearing is held. NFL fans knew he would never be back, Vick of course might be.

On a side note, wasn't there only one death? Didn't they save the baby, but with significant health problems? I think only the mother died, but I could be wrong.

If you are an NFL fan you knew all about the Carruth case. Otherwise it would be a mystery to about 95% of the rest of the population. There were no Rae Carruth chew toys etc.....The Vick case was much more wide spread. The point I'm trying to make is how people seem to value the lives of dogs more than people when it comes to their outrage. People are dying daily from gang violence but I don't see nearly as many people outraged by that as were by Vick killing dogs. I have friends who couldnt care less about sports who knew tons of details about the case. When I asked them what they thought should be done about the Detroit and DC murder rates, they pretty much said nothing.

I think that's because it's easier to have a point to focus your rage upon--say Vick rather than a generalized notion of whoever it might be that's killing folks. The other thing to consider is that "hang 'em" is an easy answer whereas figuring out what to do about DC and Detriot murder rates would take some analysis into the causes and possible solutions, intellect, and psychological skill.

[Zool]

Michael Vick killed dogs and there was a huge outcry. Rae Carruth took 2 human lives and it was barely a blip on the radar of the world.

I remember a lot of coverage about Carruth. But with Carruth it seemed pretty clear what his fate would be from the day he skipped out on bail. He would be going to prison for a long time. With Vick there was an initial concern that he would get only a slap on the wrist. Once Carruth was sentenced to a minimum of 20 years people felt a certain amount of justice, although I am sure it will resurface when a parole hearing is held. NFL fans knew he would never be back, Vick of course might be.

On a side note, wasn't there only one death? Didn't they save the baby, but with significant health problems? I think only the mother died, but I could be wrong.

If you are an NFL fan you knew all about the Carruth case. Otherwise it would be a mystery to about 95% of the rest of the population. There were no Rae Carruth chew toys etc.....The Vick case was much more wide spread. The point I'm trying to make is how people seem to value the lives of dogs more than people when it comes to their outrage. People are dying daily from gang violence but I don't see nearly as many people outraged by that as were by Vick killing dogs. I have friends who couldnt care less about sports who knew tons of details about the case. When I asked them what they thought should be done about the Detroit and DC murder rates, they pretty much said nothing.

I think that's because it's easier to have a point to focus your rage upon--say Vick rather than a generalized notion of whoever it might be that's killing folks. The other thing to consider is that "hang 'em" is an easy answer whereas figuring out what to do about DC and Detriot murder rates would take some analysis into the causes and possible solutions, intellect, and psychological skill.

I think its because people who dont live in a ghetto don't care to attempt to relate to or empathize with the people living there, but everyone has or knows someone who has a dog. Its really too bad.

[mission]

As a Pit Bull owner and breeder of some of the best temperament dogs known in Atlanta, I was very against Vick and just about everything about him ... was glad to see him the Falcons cut ties with him.

That said, he did his time. He should be reinstated immediately. Any time you do time ... that's gotta be it. Come on, that shit is hell, even for Vick... :evil:

I wish him the best.

[th87]

Whoops

[Lurker64]

That said, he did his time. He should be reinstated immediately. Any time you do time ... that's gotta be it. Come on, that shit is hell, even for Vick... :evil:

I think he should be reinstated, but not immediately. The man has black marks against him in the eyes of the NFL that are separate from the legal charges, notably lying to Goodell's face about his involvement (or lack thereof) in the activities he eventually pled guilty to. I would say "time served" is good enough for the suspension for what he was actually guilty of, but I would suspend him for another year to see how he readjusts to civilian life. If he behaves himself, let him back in immediately.

[th87]

Michael Vick killed dogs and there was a huge outcry. Rae Carruth took 2 human lives and it was barely a blip on the radar of the world.

I remember a lot of coverage about Carruth. But with Carruth it seemed pretty clear what his fate would be from the day he skipped out on bail. He would be going to prison for a long time. With Vick there was an initial concern that he would get only a slap on the wrist. Once Carruth was sentenced to a minimum of 20 years people felt a certain amount of justice, although I am sure it will resurface when a parole hearing is held. NFL fans knew he would never be back, Vick of course might be.

On a side note, wasn't there only one death? Didn't they save the baby, but with significant health problems? I think only the mother died, but I could be wrong.

If you are an NFL fan you knew all about the Carruth case. Otherwise it would be a mystery to about 95% of the rest of the population. There were no Rae Carruth chew toys etc.....The Vick case was much more wide spread. The point I'm trying to make is how people seem to value the lives of dogs more than people when it comes to their outrage. People are dying daily from gang violence but I don't see nearly as many people outraged by that as were by Vick killing dogs. I have friends who couldnt care less about sports who knew tons of details about the case. When I asked them what they thought should be done about the Detroit and DC murder rates, they pretty much said nothing.

I think that's because it's easier to have a point to focus your rage upon--say Vick rather than a generalized notion of whoever it might be that's killing folks. The other thing to consider is that "hang 'em" is an easy answer whereas figuring out what to do about DC and Detriot murder rates would take some analysis into the causes and possible solutions, intellect, and psychological skill.

I think its because people who dont live in a ghetto don't care to attempt to relate to or empathize with the people living there, but everyone has or knows someone who has a dog. Its really too bad.

Spot on. It's really a cultural thing.

In a certain subset of southern Black culture, fighting dogs is a common form of recreation. He probably grew up with it all around him. This caused a desensitization, and he, and people around him just got used to it and accepted it.

In China, people eat dogs. It's normal - no big deal. People in one place do things that people in other places wouldn't dream of doing. I think this is ultimately what was Vick's undoing.

Of course, I'm sure Vick knew that it wasn't right, but I'd bet he was pretty surprised at the extent of the backlash that he had to deal with. It was a clash of two cultures. As a result, he paid his debt, and should now be allowed to live his life again.

Further, there is a matter of his actual involvement in the killing of dogs. He says that he was never the one who actually perpetrated it, but instead was aware of it, and funded it. Not that that's any better, obviously, but I think some of his buddies definitely let him take the fall for some things.

[SnakeLH2006]

Snake used to say FUCK VICK. He's a gansta beyotch and overrated...but it looks like he learned his lesson..$10 an hour for a 40 hour a week job in construction. Used to do that shit. It's hard work, but hey, he did his time. Snake is all about 2nd chances. Let's see Vick with his 4.2 speed at WR or RB. He could be a beast and a Kordell Stewart change of pace at QB if so desired. He just sucks at QB. Love the NFL media. Favre...Vick...it's all fun. :shock:

[MOBB DEEP]

Snake used to say FUCK VICK. He's a gansta beyotch and overrated...but it looks like he learned his lesson..$10 an hour for a 40 hour a week job in construction. Used to do that shit. It's hard work, but hey, he did his time. Snake is all about 2nd chances. Let's see Vick with his 4.2 speed at WR or RB. He could be a beast and a Kordell Stewart change of pace at QB if so desired. He just sucks at QB. Love the NFL media. Favre...Vick...it's all fun. :shock:

qft

[Gunakor]

People think that his doing time in a federal prison was his paying his debt to society. That because he has been released, that means his debt has been paid.

False.

His prison term was not his making amends for what he did. It was merely serving his punishment. His release means he can just now start to make amends. Now is the time for him to START paying his debt to society.

(Sorry, I was listening to a talk radio segment concerning this issue a week or two ago and heard a caller state they thought Vick had repaid his debt to society by serving his prison term, and had come out with a clean slate - thus deserving of any second chances that anyone else would be afforded, NFL or otherwise. I disagree with this caller 100%, and just thought of it again just now seeing this thread brought back to the top.)

[Chevelle2]

People think that his doing time in a federal prison was his paying his debt to society. That because he has been released, that means his debt has been paid.

False.

His prison term was not his making amends for what he did. It was merely serving his punishment. His release means he can just now start to make amends. Now is the time for him to START paying his debt to society.

(Sorry, I was listening to a talk radio segment concerning this issue a week or two ago and heard a caller state they thought Vick had repaid his debt to society by serving his prison term, and had come out with a clean slate - thus deserving of any second chances that anyone else would be afforded, NFL or otherwise. I disagree with this caller 100%, and just thought of it again just now seeing this thread brought back to the top.)

At what point was "making amends" part of his criminal sentence?

[Gunakor]

People think that his doing time in a federal prison was his paying his debt to society. That because he has been released, that means his debt has been paid.

False.

His prison term was not his making amends for what he did. It was merely serving his punishment. His release means he can just now start to make amends. Now is the time for him to START paying his debt to society.

(Sorry, I was listening to a talk radio segment concerning this issue a week or two ago and heard a caller state they thought Vick had repaid his debt to society by serving his prison term, and had come out with a clean slate - thus deserving of any second chances that anyone else would be afforded, NFL or otherwise. I disagree with this caller 100%, and just thought of it again just now seeing this thread brought back to the top.)

At what point was "making amends" part of his criminal sentence?

Well, it's not, I guess. I'd consider it part of his charge as a human being, but that's just me. If he chooses not to make amends, that's his choice. But he shouldn't expect much sympathy if he doesn't.

This is more speaking to the issue of people believing that when you go to prison, you are serving a debt owed to society. That when you are released, that means your debt has been paid. A significant portion of our society feels this way. I'd guess that anyone clammoring for Vick to get a second chance in the NFL feels this same way too.


That said, he did his time. He should be reinstated immediately. Any time you do time ... that's gotta be it.

No, that's not "it". All he did is serve his punishment. He did not earn any second chances just by doing his time. Spend a couple years actually making amends, making things right, and EARN your second chance. Don't just assume it's owed to you because you spend a year and a half in a federal prison.

[MOBB DEEP]

im envisioning vick da great backing up lord favre and running that wildcat o with a. peterson and p. harvin. whew...

with our weak linebackers it could be a long day "ALL DAY"!

dayum..

hey tt, GET PLAXICO...!!!

[Gunakor]

im envisioning vick da great backing up lord favre and running that wildcat o with "all day" and p. harvin.

Favre AND Vick? You don't think Favre alone is a big enough circus? And the Williamses legal battles on top of it? Poor bastards...

[MJZiggy]

Anything to screw up the Vikings...Can you IMAGINE the catfights over playing time?

[cpk1994]

many ppl who probably want him banned for life do and have done worse things depending on one's moral compass.


Ah, yes. Most likely. Depending on one's moral compass.

But according to the law, most of us have not. Moral compass is irrelevant where the law is concerned. He spent a year and a half in a federal prison, something most of us who want him banned for life have not experienced. That means he fucked up way worse than we have, regardless of one's moral compass.

Ban him. Though, I don't think they'll have to. What team is in such dire need of an average QB with exceptional running ability that they'd put up with the amount of publicity that would come with it?You need to remember that Al Davis is still running a football team. Also, any team that runs the wildcat could be real interested.

[MOBB DEEP]

man, i LOVE watchn vick perform fellas

except when sherman screwed us over by not game-planning for him properly in that playoff game

STILL stings

[Scott Campbell]

now that he's released from prison hopefully he can get his life back in order and be given a chance to continue his career.



Florio wrote this at the end of his piece on Goodall's ruling on Stallworth yesterday:

"Wow.

Somewhere, Mike Vick and Plaxico Burress just peed a little."

[MOBB DEEP]

now that he's released from prison hopefully he can get his life back in order and be given a chance to continue his career.



Florio wrote this at the end of his piece on Goodall's ruling on Stallworth yesterday:

"Wow.

Somewhere, Mike Vick and Plaxico Burress just peed a little."

he he.....

[MOBB DEEP]

my man FINALLY gonna be "free" tomorrow

clearly vick's conviction shed light on an activity that was/is strictly underground and amongst disenfranchised african-american folk who dont understand the barbarism

it was a black/urban thing and mike was the most popular person to get involved

i would LOVE to know what led him to invest in this atrocious endeavor...

alas, redemption song!

[Scott Campbell]

my man FINALLY gonna be "free" tomorrow

clearly vick's conviction shed light on an activity that was/is strictly underground and amongst disenfranchised african-american folk who dont understand the barbarism

it was a black/urban thing and mike was the most popular person to get involved

i would LOVE to know what led him to invest in this atrocious endeavor...

alas, redemption song!


I think there are lots of "disenfranchised african-american folk" who don't resort to killing and mutilating dogs just for the entertainment value of it. And it's certainly not just a black thing. The people who do this are just ordinary run of the mill assholes.

[Rastak]

my man FINALLY gonna be "free" tomorrow

clearly vick's conviction shed light on an activity that was/is strictly underground and amongst disenfranchised african-american folk who dont understand the barbarism

it was a black/urban thing and mike was the most popular person to get involved

i would LOVE to know what led him to invest in this atrocious endeavor...

alas, redemption song!


I think it may have been that he was an asshole to the core. Actually, I'm pretty sure. He didn't invest, he PARTICIPATED in it. He ADMITTED it.


Also, don't use a great tune by Bob Marley (Redemption Song) in the same sentence as a shithead like Vick.

I hope he can find gainful employment, somewhere far away from the NFL.

[MichiganPackerFan]

What Vick did was wrong. Obviously. But he has paid his debt. It is time to move forward. If he can find a job in the NFL, best of luck to him.

[Brando19]

What Vick did was wrong. Obviously. But he has paid his debt. It is time to move forward. If he can find a job in the NFL, best of luck to him.

Agreed...he did something absolutely sick and horrible...but he has paid for it. Hell...Stallworth got 24 days in jail for killing a man! WTF? Vick deserves another opportunity.

[Rastak]

What Vick did was wrong. Obviously. But he has paid his debt. It is time to move forward. If he can find a job in the NFL, best of luck to him.

Agreed...he did something absolutely sick and horrible...but he has paid for it. Hell...Stallworth got 24 days in jail for killing a man! WTF? Vick deserves another opportunity.


Stallworth got 24 days for being a dumbass for drinking and driving and having somebody run right in front of his car from what I have read regarding the video of the incident. The dude literally ran right out in front of his car.

Vick, on the other hand, with his free will tortured dogs. It was a business yet he found inventive ways to kill dogs, which makes one think he enjoyed it. I have no idea if he did or not but if it was strictly business, a lehtal injection would have sufficed.


Anyway, on to Mr. Vick's reinstatement. I personally would not count one day of his prison time toward his suspension. The guy could not have played ANYWAY! He was in the federal prison! He could not honor his contract. I would say his NFL punishment starts when he is eligible to actually play, which sounds like now.

My personal opinion is that I would suspend him for a year and re-evaluate him at the end of that time period to see if he is still a sociaopath.

One last note Brando, I was indeed just giving you some shit about West Virigina criminals in another thread....does seem like a rather high ratio but I have nothing against WV. From what I have heard, it is a very nice place although with a bit of a depressed economy.

[Rastak]

People think that his doing time in a federal prison was his paying his debt to society. That because he has been released, that means his debt has been paid.

False.

His prison term was not his making amends for what he did. It was merely serving his punishment. His release means he can just now start to make amends. Now is the time for him to START paying his debt to society.

(Sorry, I was listening to a talk radio segment concerning this issue a week or two ago and heard a caller state they thought Vick had repaid his debt to society by serving his prison term, and had come out with a clean slate - thus deserving of any second chances that anyone else would be afforded, NFL or otherwise. I disagree with this caller 100%, and just thought of it again just now seeing this thread brought back to the top.)

At what point was "making amends" part of his criminal sentence?


No where. It only comes into play when the NFL decides if they should take the dude back as an employee. Has nothing to do with his legal status but everything to do with his employment status.

[Gunakor]

What Vick did was wrong. Obviously. But he has paid his debt. It is time to move forward. If he can find a job in the NFL, best of luck to him.

No, he hasn't. He has merely served his punishment. No debts have been paid as far as society should be concerned. It is indeed time to move forward, but moving forward should begin with making amends and actually repaying that debt. It shouldn't start with a new NFL career. That much he should have to earn, and it shouldn't be earned simply by serving time in a federal prison.

[NewsBruin]

okay, legal/suspension issues aside, I wanted to address my good friend Mr. Deep's affection for Mike Vick:

While Mobb may like Mike and his video-game moves, Mr. Vick wasn't lighting up the league in passing numbers or postseason win%. Take a quarterback with a cannon arm who takes lots of hits from linemen, and you have a guy who subtly loses his scrambling ability and has to rely on eye-fakes and passing accuracy.

Vick was never good in either aspect, and he was frustrating his coaches with his inability to grow as a passer or a field leader (Vick was one of those players who has the annual "He knows it's his time to be a leader and he's going to take it seriously" stories like Allen Iverson and Matt Leinert). Oh, and his darling run-with-the-ball-in-one-hand-away-from-my-body style looks great, but cranks his fumble numbers into Daunte Culpepper's ZIP code.

I think that a wildcat-style feature position would be best for Vick, as I don't trust him to win a game all by himself -- not with modern scouting. Even change-of-pace roles get the mess scouted out of them and become less effective with each game.

I also think that Vick's best chance to extend his career would be to learn FG holding and possibly try to learn punting. Putting him in an open backfield against ST-level talent would play to Vick's strengths.

[Brando19]

What Vick did was wrong. Obviously. But he has paid his debt. It is time to move forward. If he can find a job in the NFL, best of luck to him.

Agreed...he did something absolutely sick and horrible...but he has paid for it. Hell...Stallworth got 24 days in jail for killing a man! WTF? Vick deserves another opportunity.


Stallworth got 24 days for being a dumbass for drinking and driving and having somebody run right in front of his car from what I have read regarding the video of the incident. The dude literally ran right out in front of his car.

Vick, on the other hand, with his free will tortured dogs. It was a business yet he found inventive ways to kill dogs, which makes one think he enjoyed it. I have no idea if he did or not but if it was strictly business, a lehtal injection would have sufficed.


Anyway, on to Mr. Vick's reinstatement. I personally would not count one day of his prison time toward his suspension. The guy could not have played ANYWAY! He was in the federal prison! He could not honor his contract. I would say his NFL punishment starts when he is eligible to actually play, which sounds like now.

My personal opinion is that I would suspend him for a year and re-evaluate him at the end of that time period to see if he is still a sociaopath.

One last note Brando, I was indeed just giving you some shit about West Virigina criminals in another thread....does seem like a rather high ratio but I have nothing against WV. From what I have heard, it is a very nice place although with a bit of a depressed economy.

I agree with all you say. It just seems if me or you would have been high/drunk and killed someone...even if they just ran out in front of us...we would have received a harsher punishment.

No offense taken AT ALL in the other thread about WV criminals. Pacman was a thug at WVU. Owen Schmitt was above the legal alcohol limit in Seattle...but he claimed the test was wrong.

[Fritz]

okay, legal/suspension issues aside, I wanted to address my good friend Mr. Deep's affection for Mike Vick:

While Mobb may like Mike and his video-game moves, Mr. Vick wasn't lighting up the league in passing numbers or postseason win%. Take a quarterback with a cannon arm who takes lots of hits from linemen, and you have a guy who subtly loses his scrambling ability and has to rely on eye-fakes and passing accuracy.

Vick was never good in either aspect, and he was frustrating his coaches with his inability to grow as a passer or a field leader (Vick was one of those players who has the annual "He knows it's his time to be a leader and he's going to take it seriously" stories like Allen Iverson and Matt Leinert). Oh, and his darling run-with-the-ball-in-one-hand-away-from-my-body style looks great, but cranks his fumble numbers into Daunte Culpepper's ZIP code.

I think that a wildcat-style feature position would be best for Vick, as I don't trust him to win a game all by himself -- not with modern scouting. Even change-of-pace roles get the mess scouted out of them and become less effective with each game.

I also think that Vick's best chance to extend his career would be to learn FG holding and possibly try to learn punting. Putting him in an open backfield against ST-level talent would play to Vick's strengths.

Bruin! How cool to see you here!

[mraynrand]

man, i LOVE watchn vick perform fellas

except when sherman screwed us over by not game-planning for him properly in that playoff game

STILL stings

I just saw this. Right. The Packers lost that playoff game because of lack of game planning for Vick. LOL.

[MichiganPackerFan]

Stallworth got 24 days for being a dumbass for drinking and driving and having somebody run right in front of his car from what I have read regarding the video of the incident. The dude literally ran right out in front of his car.

I think the biggest fact that supports his sentence and the contributory negligence is it is my understanding that the family of the man who was killed agreed to the amount of time served, did not push for a harsher sentence, understanding that it was completely an accident. And while stallworth had exceeded the legal alcohol limits, it wasn't by much. It's not like he was falling over himself drunk.

In regard to Vick's debt, there is a lot of debate and differing thought on the matter of incarceration and corrections in this country. I am not arrogant enough to say that I know the answers to it all, but it seems to me that punishment and the debt are integrally linked. And if the state's punishment is not sufficient for the debt, a civil suit often follows. Imposed community service is often used as a means of satisfying that debt. I do not recall, is Vick obligated to perform community service? Regardless, once Vick has fulfilled the punishment and paid the debt as established by the courts, he is a free man and should be allowed to move forward. I will not be the one standing and judging. The court has already done that.

[th87]

Whoa, MPF - welcome back.

Gunakor, as far as Vick goes, what debt does he have yet to pay to society? How can he go about doing that?

I don't think he ever admitted to actually killing the dogs. Those allegations were brought on by his former cohorts looking for plea deals. So I have to reserve judgment on that particular point.

Further, he's partly a victim of his culture. In his particular cultural subset, fighting dogs aren't a big deal. Just part of an everyday thing. As a result, he probably grew desensitized to the whole thing.

What sounds shocking to you and I is probably just an idle diversion to him. As other examples, there are cultures that eat dogs. That sounds appalling to us, but acceptable to them. We are okay with killing animals to eat. That would be appalling to certain other cultures.

The point is, in judging his character, we can't look through our lens. We have to take into account the other cultural factors.

Of course, he did commit a crime, and for that, he has to pay. But I'll stop short of calling him a scumbag, because I don't think even he was able to grasp the seriousness of his actions.

[MichiganPackerFan]

Whoa, MPF - welcome back....

Thanks TH! And nicely put. The Vick ordeal is done. Let's move forward. Any further judgement should be for what happens in the future and on the field. Let bygones be bygones, especially when the punishment is complete.

[MOBB DEEP]

my man FINALLY gonna be "free" tomorrow

clearly vick's conviction shed light on an activity that was/is strictly underground and amongst disenfranchised african-american folk who dont understand the barbarism

it was a black/urban thing and mike was the most popular person to get involved

i would LOVE to know what led him to invest in this atrocious endeavor...

alas, redemption song!

u misunderstood me; i wasnt sayn all poor black folk engage in this nonsense...shoot! i grew up poor and knew fools who did dog fightn..i couldnt even stomach it

and ur right, some white folk do it do but i would bet 75% or better are black folk
I think there are lots of "disenfranchised african-american folk" who don't resort to killing and mutilating dogs just for the entertainment value of it. And it's certainly not just a black thing. The people who do this are just ordinary run of the mill assholes.

[MOBB DEEP]

my man FINALLY gonna be "free" tomorrow

clearly vick's conviction shed light on an activity that was/is strictly underground and amongst disenfranchised african-american folk who dont understand the barbarism

it was a black/urban thing and mike was the most popular person to get involved

i would LOVE to know what led him to invest in this atrocious endeavor...

alas, redemption song!


I think it may have been that he was an asshole to the core. Actually, I'm pretty sure. He didn't invest, he PARTICIPATED in it. He ADMITTED it.


Also, don't use a great tune by Bob Marley (Redemption Song) in the same sentence as a shithead like Vick.

I hope he can find gainful employment, somewhere far away from the NFL.

hate the sin NOT the sinner; WWJD? He would redeem vick da great since His mission is to save the sinner and reclaim the backslidder (from my pastor's sermon yesterday GLORY!)

[Scott Campbell]

u misunderstood me; i wasnt sayn all poor black folk engage in this nonsense...shoot! i grew up poor and knew fools who did dog fightn..i couldnt even stomach it

and ur right, some white folk do it do but i would bet 75% or better are black folk


I just don't see it is a race issue Mobb.

[MOBB DEEP]

u misunderstood me; i wasnt sayn all poor black folk engage in this nonsense...shoot! i grew up poor and knew fools who did dog fightn..i couldnt even stomach it

and ur right, some white folk do it do but i would bet 75% or better are black folk


I just don't see it is a race issue Mobb.

not race "issue" SC

im just sayn i see more of the hip-hop nation types (mainly down south) and black folk on the fringe as participating in dog fighting as opposed to trailer park trash in old smokie country

[MOBB DEEP]

a lehtal injection would have sufficed.




i TOTALLY concur (cept for the spelln)..so weird to have to be SO brutal with slamming dogs on ground, drowning, electricuting, etc...why the brutality? i dont get it....

man's mind can be SO sick at times ala chattel slavery, tar and feathering, castrating, rapping sistas, rodney king, jasper texas, emmitt till, water hoses, sicking dogs on protesters, etc

Jesus, SOON come...

[MOBB DEEP]

whoa, thy're sayn vick da great may end up with brady and moss

imagine him faking a run and throwing bomb to moss?? whew

hey tt, GET VICK....!!!

[MOBB DEEP]

okay, legal/suspension issues aside, I wanted to address my good friend Mr. Deep's affection for Mike Vick:

While Mobb may like Mike and his video-game moves, Mr. Vick wasn't lighting up the league in passing numbers or postseason win%. Take a quarterback with a cannon arm who takes lots of hits from linemen, and you have a guy who subtly loses his scrambling ability and has to rely on eye-fakes and passing accuracy.

Vick was never good in either aspect, and he was frustrating his coaches with his inability to grow as a passer or a field leader (Vick was one of those players who has the annual "He knows it's his time to be a leader and he's going to take it seriously" stories like Allen Iverson and Matt Leinert). Oh, and his darling run-with-the-ball-in-one-hand-away-from-my-body style looks great, but cranks his fumble numbers into Daunte Culpepper's ZIP code.

I think that a wildcat-style feature position would be best for Vick, as I don't trust him to win a game all by himself -- not with modern scouting. Even change-of-pace roles get the mess scouted out of them and become less effective with each game.

I also think that Vick's best chance to extend his career would be to learn FG holding and possibly try to learn punting. Putting him in an open backfield against ST-level talent would play to Vick's strengths.

its pretty elementary NB...

for the record, other than the packers or lord favre i CARE NOT about wins and losses just ENTERTAINMENT...i like watchn certain players make plays PERIOD....im not a kobe fan AT ALL but LOVE his moves

funny u mention A.I. b/c he's my 3rd all time fav behind bird and ewing (im a Hoya for life!)...not b/c he won championship but b/c i dig how he ENTERTAINS me my friend

it is what it is; everone cant win so why not just enjoy what each individual brings to the game??!! vick = sean penn basicaly, great ENTERTAINER

[Scott Campbell]

vick = sean penn basicaly, great ENTERTAINER


I bet Sean is more accurate.

[mraynrand]

Stallworth got 24 days for being a dumbass for drinking and driving and having somebody run right in front of his car from what I have read regarding the video of the incident. The dude literally ran right out in front of his car.

I think the biggest fact that supports his sentence and the contributory negligence is it is my understanding that the family of the man who was killed agreed to the amount of time served, did not push for a harsher sentence, understanding that it was completely an accident. And while stallworth had exceeded the legal alcohol limits, it wasn't by much. It's not like he was falling over himself drunk.



All true, but we got to get tougher on the DUI folks. If we were tougher on first timers, McNair would be alive and fulfilling the young ladies today.

[MOBB DEEP]

vick = sean penn basicaly, great ENTERTAINER


I bet Sean is more accurate.

he he...probably SC

[MOBB DEEP]

Stallworth got 24 days for being a dumbass for drinking and driving and having somebody run right in front of his car from what I have read regarding the video of the incident. The dude literally ran right out in front of his car.

I think the biggest fact that supports his sentence and the contributory negligence is it is my understanding that the family of the man who was killed agreed to the amount of time served, did not push for a harsher sentence, understanding that it was completely an accident. And while stallworth had exceeded the legal alcohol limits, it wasn't by much. It's not like he was falling over himself drunk.



All true, but we got to get tougher on the DUI folks. If we were tougher on first timers, McNair would be alive and fulfilling the young ladies today.

dont jinx me; i got DUI 2 months ago and have driven WAY more wasted than i was then...my first time drinking in almost 2 years DAYUM...

court date in september so dont be urging powers that be to throw book at me

[MOBB DEEP]

espn poll:

65% of ppl want to see vick da great play this season

what do the other 35% want? him banned for life??

[SkinBasket]

What Vick did was wrong. Obviously. But he has paid his debt. It is time to move forward. If he can find a job in the NFL, best of luck to him.

It doesn't matter what debt he's paid to society. His actions damaged the image and marketability of not only the Falcons, but the entire league as well. He lied to his team, his fans, and Goodell personally. There's no obligation to allow him to play another day in the league, and as of right now, I don't any reason why he should be allowed to play football in the NFL again.

[pbmax]

What Vick did was wrong. Obviously. But he has paid his debt. It is time to move forward. If he can find a job in the NFL, best of luck to him.

It doesn't matter what debt he's paid to society. His actions damaged the image and marketability of not only the Falcons, but the entire league as well. He lied to his team, his fans, and Goodell personally. There's no obligation to allow him to play another day in the league, and as of right now, I don't any reason why he should be allowed to play football in the NFL again.
You don't think money is a motivating factor here at all for the league or teams? Or do you wish that it wasn't going to be a factor?

[SkinBasket]

funny u mention A.I. b/c he's my 3rd all time fav behind bird and ewing (im a Hoya for life!)...not b/c he won championship but b/c i dig how he ENTERTAINS me my friend

it is what it is; everone cant win so why not just enjoy what each individual brings to the game??!! vick = sean penn basicaly, great ENTERTAINER

Not everyone can drown, electrocute, and hang dogs like Vick did. Has anyone considered the impact his imprisonment has had on dog murder? I bet it hasn't been nearly as fun or entertaining without "da great" around.

[SkinBasket]

What Vick did was wrong. Obviously. But he has paid his debt. It is time to move forward. If he can find a job in the NFL, best of luck to him.

It doesn't matter what debt he's paid to society. His actions damaged the image and marketability of not only the Falcons, but the entire league as well. He lied to his team, his fans, and Goodell personally. There's no obligation to allow him to play another day in the league, and as of right now, I don't any reason why he should be allowed to play football in the NFL again.
You don't think money is a motivating factor here at all for the league or teams? Or do you wish that it wasn't going to be a factor?

You mean money generated by allowing him to play again? Like ticket and jersey sales?

[pbmax]

What Vick did was wrong. Obviously. But he has paid his debt. It is time to move forward. If he can find a job in the NFL, best of luck to him.

It doesn't matter what debt he's paid to society. His actions damaged the image and marketability of not only the Falcons, but the entire league as well. He lied to his team, his fans, and Goodell personally. There's no obligation to allow him to play another day in the league, and as of right now, I don't any reason why he should be allowed to play football in the NFL again.
You don't think money is a motivating factor here at all for the league or teams? Or do you wish that it wasn't going to be a factor?

You mean money generated by allowing him to play again? Like ticket and jersey sales?
Yes. Additionally, advertising and marketing for the team, league and networks. And higher ratings for a while at least.

[KYPack]

u misunderstood me; i wasnt sayn all poor black folk engage in this nonsense...shoot! i grew up poor and knew fools who did dog fightn..i couldnt even stomach it

and ur right, some white folk do it do but i would bet 75% or better are black folk
I think there are lots of "disenfranchised african-american folk" who don't resort to killing and mutilating dogs just for the entertainment value of it. And it's certainly not just a black thing. The people who do this are just ordinary run of the mill assholes.

I doubt there is any census data to back this up, but dog fighting is not 75% Black. It's a dirty Southern thing. They show raids of dog fighting places all the time on TV around here. It's all hillbillies that they arrest. I'd say it's a 60-40 or 70-30 or more to the poor white trash side of the ledger as to who fights dogs.

I guess Vick should be allowed to come back. The Leonard Little case is the bad example that's often cited there, but it's true. If a guy kills people and gets a second chance, vick outta get one too.

I own 3 big dogs and work with a few animal rescue places. Some of the people in that movement also belong to PETA. Believe me, PETA is laying in the weeds to come after both Vick and the NFL if Mike gets re-instated. His case creates hoopla and that equals donation $ to PETA. PETA does not squander those kinds of opportunities. They will make Vick national cause & it will be rough on the guy.

[SkinBasket]

What Vick did was wrong. Obviously. But he has paid his debt. It is time to move forward. If he can find a job in the NFL, best of luck to him.

It doesn't matter what debt he's paid to society. His actions damaged the image and marketability of not only the Falcons, but the entire league as well. He lied to his team, his fans, and Goodell personally. There's no obligation to allow him to play another day in the league, and as of right now, I don't any reason why he should be allowed to play football in the NFL again.
You don't think money is a motivating factor here at all for the league or teams? Or do you wish that it wasn't going to be a factor?

You mean money generated by allowing him to play again? Like ticket and jersey sales?
Yes. Additionally, advertising and marketing for the team, league and networks. And higher ratings for a while at least.

Honestly, I don't think Vick has any kind of staggering value. Sure, he still has his "fan base" that will defend him as another beaten down brotha and will take great pride in sticking it to the man by wearing new Vick gear. But on the larger scale, I find it hard to believe that many sane people will want themselves or their children to carry his brand.

Sure, there's some revenue created by the dramatic story of his return - assuming he can secure a starting job after his time away. But no more than the couple dozen stories that are played up by the league to sell games and tickets in any given season.

The guy wasn't that good. Some people might find him exciting - in that he was good at doing some things that didn't translate into winning football games while being absolutely pedestrian in those things which were expected of him. Brutally slaying dogs is what he is currently best known and remembered for. If I'm the league, I simply don't want that story played out again and again each week he takes the field - reminding advertisers, fans, casual observers, and drunken bar sluts alike that one of the NFL's previously most visible and marketable players killed a bunch of dogs, lied about it, then spent time in federal prison.

[Gunakor]

Stallworth got 24 days for being a dumbass for drinking and driving and having somebody run right in front of his car from what I have read regarding the video of the incident. The dude literally ran right out in front of his car.

I think the biggest fact that supports his sentence and the contributory negligence is it is my understanding that the family of the man who was killed agreed to the amount of time served, did not push for a harsher sentence, understanding that it was completely an accident. And while stallworth had exceeded the legal alcohol limits, it wasn't by much. It's not like he was falling over himself drunk.

In regard to Vick's debt, there is a lot of debate and differing thought on the matter of incarceration and corrections in this country. I am not arrogant enough to say that I know the answers to it all, but it seems to me that punishment and the debt are integrally linked. And if the state's punishment is not sufficient for the debt, a civil suit often follows. Imposed community service is often used as a means of satisfying that debt. I do not recall, is Vick obligated to perform community service? Regardless, once Vick has fulfilled the punishment and paid the debt as established by the courts, he is a free man and should be allowed to move forward. I will not be the one standing and judging. The court has already done that.

Vick can begin repaying that debt by working with and donating to animal rights groups, going to schools and youth groups and talking about the atrocities he's committed and why it was a mistake, things like that. Whether legally obligated to do so or not. In fact, it would make more of an impact if he were not ordered to do so by the courts, instead doing so on his own accord.

I don't think the courts should be the ones to establish debt to society. The courts can only judge the crime and establish punishment for that crime. Only the punishment is mandatory. Debt to society should be established by society, and repayment of that debt is not mandatory. As repayment of that debt is optional, Vick should have to make that repayment before being afforded the privilege of a new NFL career.

Put it like this: If Vick were to go right back to dogfighting, what good has the year and a half he spent in prison done for society? That's what I'm talking about. Prison is just punishment, it is not actual rehabilitation or repayment of debt. That path starts afterwards, should he choose to follow that path. Otherwise he's just another guy who went to prison yet didn't learn a damn thing. In that case, no debt has been paid no matter how many days he spent behind bars. I hope he does make the effort to continue the down the right path to make amends for what he's done, and if he does I absolutely agree he should get another shot at an NFL career. But second chances have to be earned, they should not be just given away. He has to earn that chance and he hasn't done that yet.

[MOBB DEEP]

this cat on jim rome today said that he would take vick da great over favre b/c he's fresher

[Gunakor]

Gunakor, as far as Vick goes, what debt does he have yet to pay to society?

Prove that he's done dogfighting, talk to and work with organizations to stop others who are engaged in dogfighting, work with animal rights groups, etc.

Let me ask you this: What debt has Vick paid to society simply by spending time behind bars? How does one make things right in the eyes of society while incarcerated? What has Vick done specifically? I would think that those of us who have NOT spent time behind bars have paid more towards society than anyone who has. I give no credit to a criminal simply for serving his punishment.

[Gunakor]

for the record, other than the packers or lord favre i CARE NOT about wins and losses just ENTERTAINMENT

You are in the extreme minority here Mobb. Most of us - probably 99% of us - do care a great deal about wins and losses. Our loyalty is to the team, and wins are much more entertaining than loses. If our opponent makes 100 great plays and defeats us, it isn't entertaining. No matter how exciting the other team's great plays were, they were the opponents plays and the opponents victory. A great majority of us could not and would not be entertained in that scenario.

[Gunakor]

espn poll:

65% of ppl want to see vick da great play this season

what do the other 35% want? him banned for life??

I can't speak for all 35% of us, but what I want is for him to earn his chance to come back.

If I got arrested today and went to prison for a year, I wouldn't be given my job back when I got out. I dont' think there's even any amount of reconciliation or making amends that would convince my hotel to hire me back. It just wouldn't happen. So Vick already has an opportunity that wouldn't be afforded to most people, that being the opportunity to actually get his job back. I truly hope he takes full advantage of that opportunity and does all the right things and stays the right course so he can get his job back.

[MOBB DEEP]

u misunderstood me; i wasnt sayn all poor black folk engage in this I doubt there is any census data to back this up, but dog fighting is not 75% Black. It's a dirty Southern thing. They show raids of dog fighting places all the time on TV around here. It's all hillbillies that they arrest. I'd say it's a 60-40 or 70-30 or more to the poor white trash side of the ledger as to who fights dogs.



thanks for info; i woulda never guessed

they use pitbulls too?

[MOBB DEEP]

for the record, other than the packers or lord favre i CARE NOT about wins and losses just ENTERTAINMENT

You are in the extreme minority here Mobb. Most of us - probably 99% of us - do care a great deal about wins and losses. Our loyalty is to the team, and wins are much more entertaining than loses. If our opponent makes 100 great plays and defeats us, it isn't entertaining. No matter how exciting the other team's great plays were, they were the opponents plays and the opponents victory. A great majority of us could not and would not be entertained in that scenario.

Gun, when i say im more interested in the ENTERTAINMENT component i dont mean in a game in which my fav team or player is playn....im speaking only about the OTHER games played that week or season...i said that in response to a poster pointing out that Vick da great doesnt/hasnt won enough....moss aint won jack but i LOVE watchn him play (now that ive evolved into an individual that puts pro sports in perspective - i used to HATE moss! but for what? being drafted by another team as if he had control over it??!! elementary compared to real life issues)...like some poster said, these guys bash each other's heads in on sundays but are friends off-field...its only the lunatic fringe/FANatics that take this mess personally as if their life will change either way...btw, i give ALL the glory to God b/c i had to pray to develop my current mindset b/c i used to be broken up for DAYS after a packer loss; foolish, b/c life goes on...now im distraught only until the next morn lol

if im not pulln for a team i dont care if theyve made the best personnel moves; just show me the highlights

hope i made my point better

[Gunakor]

for the record, other than the packers or lord favre i CARE NOT about wins and losses just ENTERTAINMENT

You are in the extreme minority here Mobb. Most of us - probably 99% of us - do care a great deal about wins and losses. Our loyalty is to the team, and wins are much more entertaining than loses. If our opponent makes 100 great plays and defeats us, it isn't entertaining. No matter how exciting the other team's great plays were, they were the opponents plays and the opponents victory. A great majority of us could not and would not be entertained in that scenario.

Gun, when i say im more interested in the ENTERTAINMENT component i dont mean in a game in which my fav team or player is playn....im speaking only about the OTHER games played that week or season...i said that in response to a poster pointing out that Vick da great doesnt/hasnt won enough....moss aint won jack but i LOVE watchn him play (now that ive evolved into an individual that puts pro sports in perspective - i used to HATE moss! but for what? being drafted by another team as if he had control over it??!! elementary compared to real life issues)...like some poster said, these guys bash each other's heads in on sundays but are friends off-field...its only the lunatic fringe/FANatics that take this mess personally as if their life will change either way...btw, i give ALL the glory to God b/c i had to pray to develop my current mindset b/c i used to be broken up for DAYS after a packer loss; foolish, b/c life goes on...now im distraught only until the next morn lol

if im not pulln for a team i dont care if theyve made the best personnel moves; just show me the highlights

hope i made my point better

My mistake then, sorry for the misunderstanding.

[KYPack]

u misunderstood me; i wasnt sayn all poor black folk engage in this I doubt there is any census data to back this up, but dog fighting is not 75% Black. It's a dirty Southern thing. They show raids of dog fighting places all the time on TV around here. It's all hillbillies that they arrest. I'd say it's a 60-40 or 70-30 or more to the poor white trash side of the ledger as to who fights dogs.



thanks for info; i woulda never guessed

they use pitbulls too?

Mobb, this is how it's supposed to work. You are the hip, urban black man who explains all of this stuff to his naive Whiteboy net buddies. Somehow with you, the process is backwards.

Hell Yeah they fight pit bulls!

Quote on

Kentucky and Indiana have more lenient penalties for dog fighting.
Even so, the practice seems to have grown in recent years as it has moved into urban areas, said Norma Woolf, editor of Dog Owners' Guide, a regional newsletter based in Cincinnati. ''The pit bull seems to be the dog of choice of young men who want to prove how macho they are: 'My dog can beat your dog,''' she said.
Dog fights can last for as long as two hours, until one dog either turns away or dies fighting. Even the winner may die hours or days after a battle from blood loss, shock, dehydration, exhaustion or infection.
LOUISVILLE (WAVE) -- Four men are behind bars after a suspected dog fighting ring was busted in south Louisville early Monday morning.
Police say they found one injured pit bull, a bloody plywood ring and a large amount of cash in a garage off Camden Avenue.
Louis Fields, Andre Judkins, Joseph Taylor, Jr., and Jerry Watkins, Jr. are all charged with cruelty to animals.

Quote off

The whole deal started YEARS ago in the country. (There are Black Hillbillies, too, ya know.) It's gradually moved into the city and got urbanized, but it's an equal opportunity perversion. Blacks, whites, & other lowlifes do it all over the country.

[Packnut]

IF there was any justice on this earth, anyone participating in dog fighting in any way shape or form, should be thrown into a cage with a lion or tiger and see what it feels like to be torn apart.

I hope Michael Vick dies a horrible death at some point in time.........

[pbmax]

If I got arrested today and went to prison for a year, I wouldn't be given my job back when I got out. I dont' think there's even any amount of reconciliation or making amends that would convince my hotel to hire me back. It just wouldn't happen. So Vick already has an opportunity that wouldn't be afforded to most people, that being the opportunity to actually get his job back. I truly hope he takes full advantage of that opportunity and does all the right things and stays the right course so he can get his job back.
But is that a function of the crime you (theoretically) committed or a function of being replaceable?

You may not get your job back. But if you were so good at it that only 31 other people in the country could do it and be profitable, I would say there is a much better chance of you returning to the hotel.

You see justice being served by losing the job. But it might be supply and demand.

[Gunakor]

If I got arrested today and went to prison for a year, I wouldn't be given my job back when I got out. I dont' think there's even any amount of reconciliation or making amends that would convince my hotel to hire me back. It just wouldn't happen. So Vick already has an opportunity that wouldn't be afforded to most people, that being the opportunity to actually get his job back. I truly hope he takes full advantage of that opportunity and does all the right things and stays the right course so he can get his job back.
But is that a function of the crime you (theoretically) committed or a function of being replaceable?

You may not get your job back. But if you were so good at it that only 31 other people in the country could do it and be profitable, I would say there is a much better chance of you returning to the hotel.

You see justice being served by losing the job. But it might be supply and demand.

It's a function of both. Everyone is replaceable here so of course that's part of it. But beyond that, we simply do not employ people with a felony conviction, regardless of the actual crime or how long they've sat for. Especially if that felony occured while employed here.

I think you're overstating Vick's production anyway. If Vick is so good that only 31 other people in the country can do it like he does then he might just get a job in the NFL this year. But that's not the case and both of us know it. He might have a gift that few others have, but that didn't translate to Super Bowl caliber play. It took the Falcons all of 2 years to find a better quarterback than Vick, and he would go on to lead them to the playoffs in his rookie season. There's a handful of teams that have better backup QB's than Vick, and a backup is all he'd be this year anyway. Besides that, even if I didn't have a QB as effective as Vick I'd still rather take a temporary loss in production from the QB position and look for a different solution than willingly employ a man with a felony conviction.

I don't see justice being served simply by losing the job. He's already lost his job, that part I'm not concerned with. My concern is his getting the job back in time for the 2009 season, which doesn't seem very just to me at all. Nor does it seem like a wise thing for an NFL GM to do without allowing at least a year for Vick to show what he has learned from this ordeal and his ability to apply those lessons to his everyday life. I wouldn't take any chances. I'd just assume the number of games I'd lose if he got into trouble again is greater than the number of games I'd win if he doesn't and decide it's not worth the risk. But that's me.

[th87]

IF there was any justice on this earth, anyone participating in dog fighting in any way shape or form, should be thrown into a cage with a lion or tiger and see what it feels like to be torn apart.

I hope Michael Vick dies a horrible death at some point in time.........

This is like hoping that we all get bred, held captive, and then eaten by cows.

(Not saying eating meat is anywhere close to equal to dog-fighting, of course, but it's not without its barbarity either.)

[th87]

This got me thinking - why so much outrage for dog fighting specifically?

1. Humans hunt foxes with dogs. They are chased down, mauled, and destroyed by the dogs. Is the fox's pain any less than that of Vick's dogs?

2. How about deer hunting? Gunmen go out, chase the deer, shoot at them, and put them up in the living room. Don't the deer feel fear? Aren't they being put in distress? Don't they feel the loss of a family member in their own primitive way?

3. And in the meat industry, cows, chickens, etc. are held captive and raised in small pens, in the dark, in their own feces and urine. They are pumped with hormones to keep them growing, and then with antibiotics to deal with the illnesses that their feces give them. And then when it's time to go they are hauled off screaming and then we all know what happens.

4. Horses get their genitals removed so they behave. Then they are trained so they can be raced to make money for the owners. If the horse suffers an injury, they are shot.
___

One might argue that eating meat and hunting is for food purposes. But do we really NEED to eat meat? There are substitutes available. I realize this is societally infeasible, and I personally eat a lot of meat. But for the sake of argument, why is killing animals for food some absolute necessity?

My point is, humans treat all kinds of animals badly universally (to varying degrees). But the only moral outrage is about dogs. Dogs, for whatever reason, are placed on a higher pedestal. And I'm guessing that that's because they are our pets, and we're culturally conditioned to consider them our friends and loved ones.

Of course, dog fighting is reprehensible. The manner in which they are treated is barbaric and inhumane. But so too, to a lesser extent, are the other things I listed above. This is to a lesser extent, definitely, but there are certainly some not-so-nice elements there.

Just so there's no mistake, I'm not equating dog fighting to any of the things listed above. And of course, not condoning Vick's actions.

I'm raising the question of if we want to show outrage, we should show it for all animal suffering. Dog fighting is among the worst, so it should get the most outrage, and farming cows in that fashion should get outrage, but slightly less. And so on.

Or we can accept the fact that humanity universally treats its animals badly, and while Vick's actions were definitely bad, the unscrupulous farmer's is also somewhat bad. And since we don't wish harm on said farmer, we shouldn't on Vick either. He was simply a product of culture and desensitization. Not some evil guy (as far as I know).

He paid his debt to society. Now should be the time for repentance and becoming a better person.

[Gunakor]

He paid his debt to society. Now should be the time for repentance and becoming a better person.

Repentance and becoming a better person is part of his debt to society as far as I'm concerned. Same goes for any other criminal as it does for Vick. Which is why I feel that debt has yet to be fully paid. That's the point I've been trying to make.

[SkinBasket]

3. And in the meat industry, cows, chickens, etc. are held captive and raised in small pens, in the dark, in their own feces and urine. They are pumped with hormones to keep them growing, and then with antibiotics to deal with the illnesses that their feces give them. And then when it's time to go they are hauled off screaming and then we all know what happens.


Seriously. Thanks for the laugh.

[th87]

:lol: Yeah, I know. It was a dramatization. But they do say cows sometimes "know" and voice their distress.

[KYPack]

:lol: Yeah, I know. It was a dramatization. But they do say cows sometimes "know" and voice their distress.

If God didn't want us to eat cows, then why are they made out of all that good meat?

'Course, people are made out of meat, too, but that's a touchier issue.

[Zool]

If cows don't want to be eaten, they should stop tasting so good.

[GrnBay007]

I won't eat veal or lamb.....just can't do it. :oops:

[SkinBasket]

I won't eat veal or lamb.....just can't do it. :oops:

I laugh while I digest them. Poor little tasty bastards.

There used to be a wonderful restaurant in Madison called Top of the Park or something on the top floor of the Best Western on the capital square. It closed long ago, but it had a wonderful veal oscar dish covered in a delicious crab meat sauce. A lot of places try to pawn off shrimp as "oscar." Low budget. This place also had a spectacular banana foster desert with the open flame and everything.

[MichiganPackerFan]

I won't eat veal or lamb.....just can't do it. :oops:

Both delicious! Que the Alton Brown Good Eats! theme music!

[Waldo]

The NFL is in the entertainment business and not the feel good, high moral, good people business.

The NFL is full of free agent (independent contractors in a way) that sign with teams for a fixed length of time to provide entertainment services. Like actors, and musicians, etc... Lets not forget what this thing is. And sorry but Michael Vick is a lot more entertaining than at least 80% of the players in the league.

While whether his time in prison can count toward NFL mandated punishment is certainly debatable, to suspend a guy (first time offender) any more than 4 games for what he did is an absolute joke. Pac Man, Henry, and Marshall should have received lifetime bans long ago if Vick is "worthy" of any more suspension time.

I think GB would be great place for him. We have an unquestioned starter QB. We have an atmosphere where guys tend to stay out of trouble. If Vick isn't a starting QB (he won't be, at least right away, thus he'd have to take a shorter contract as a backup QB somewhere first), MM is easily in my top 3 of OC/HC's that would be able to get the most out of him as a backup QB. He would probably come very cheap relative to his quality (music to TT's ears), as he is a bit of a pariah (kinda like Koren was).

And Vick would be a very good backup QB, especially if there is a situation where he can heavily augment a pure passer backup. If we were to take him on, instead of moving one of the other QB's in a forced manner (poor trade value), I'd almost be inclined to skip on the 2 FB thing and replace 1 of the FB's with the X factor in Vick, and use Vick in place of one of the FB's in the same 2 FB formation. The stuff that MM could think up for Vick.....

[Harlan Huckleby]

I won't eat veal or lamb.....just can't do it. :oops:

lamb? what is so sacred about lamb? I can see not eating squirrel, those little buggers are cute.


P.E.T.A. - People Eating Tasty Animals.

[Packnut]

This got me thinking - why so much outrage for dog fighting specifically?

1. Humans hunt foxes with dogs. They are chased down, mauled, and destroyed by the dogs. Is the fox's pain any less than that of Vick's dogs?

2. How about deer hunting? Gunmen go out, chase the deer, shoot at them, and put them up in the living room. Don't the deer feel fear? Aren't they being put in distress? Don't they feel the loss of a family member in their own primitive way?

3. And in the meat industry, cows, chickens, etc. are held captive and raised in small pens, in the dark, in their own feces and urine. They are pumped with hormones to keep them growing, and then with antibiotics to deal with the illnesses that their feces give them. And then when it's time to go they are hauled off screaming and then we all know what happens.

4. Horses get their genitals removed so they behave. Then they are trained so they can be raced to make money for the owners. If the horse suffers an injury, they are shot.
___

One might argue that eating meat and hunting is for food purposes. But do we really NEED to eat meat? There are substitutes available. I realize this is societally infeasible, and I personally eat a lot of meat. But for the sake of argument, why is killing animals for food some absolute necessity?

My point is, humans treat all kinds of animals badly universally (to varying degrees). But the only moral outrage is about dogs. Dogs, for whatever reason, are placed on a higher pedestal. And I'm guessing that that's because they are our pets, and we're culturally conditioned to consider them our friends and loved ones.

Of course, dog fighting is reprehensible. The manner in which they are treated is barbaric and inhumane. But so too, to a lesser extent, are the other things I listed above. This is to a lesser extent, definitely, but there are certainly some not-so-nice elements there.

Just so there's no mistake, I'm not equating dog fighting to any of the things listed above. And of course, not condoning Vick's actions.

I'm raising the question of if we want to show outrage, we should show it for all animal suffering. Dog fighting is among the worst, so it should get the most outrage, and farming cows in that fashion should get outrage, but slightly less. And so on.

Or we can accept the fact that humanity universally treats its animals badly, and while Vick's actions were definitely bad, the unscrupulous farmer's is also somewhat bad. And since we don't wish harm on said farmer, we shouldn't on Vick either. He was simply a product of culture and desensitization. Not some evil guy (as far as I know).

He paid his debt to society. Now should be the time for repentance and becoming a better person.

You make some valid points. However, not one of them is an excuse for what Vick did. Michael Vick is pond scum period.

[Packnut]

The NFL is in the entertainment business and not the feel good, high moral, good people business.

The NFL is full of free agent (independent contractors in a way) that sign with teams for a fixed length of time to provide entertainment services. Like actors, and musicians, etc... Lets not forget what this thing is. And sorry but Michael Vick is a lot more entertaining than at least 80% of the players in the league.

While whether his time in prison can count toward NFL mandated punishment is certainly debatable, to suspend a guy (first time offender) any more than 4 games for what he did is an absolute joke. Pac Man, Henry, and Marshall should have received lifetime bans long ago if Vick is "worthy" of any more suspension time.

I think GB would be great place for him. We have an unquestioned starter QB. We have an atmosphere where guys tend to stay out of trouble. If Vick isn't a starting QB (he won't be, at least right away, thus he'd have to take a shorter contract as a backup QB somewhere first), MM is easily in my top 3 of OC/HC's that would be able to get the most out of him as a backup QB. He would probably come very cheap relative to his quality (music to TT's ears), as he is a bit of a pariah (kinda like Koren was).

And Vick would be a very good backup QB, especially if there is a situation where he can heavily augment a pure passer backup. If we were to take him on, instead of moving one of the other QB's in a forced manner (poor trade value), I'd almost be inclined to skip on the 2 FB thing and replace 1 of the FB's with the X factor in Vick, and use Vick in place of one of the FB's in the same 2 FB formation. The stuff that MM could think up for Vick.....

Felony convictions are different than mis-demeanors and should be treated as such. While I whole-heartedly agree with your first statement (especially as it concerns Favre), this is an exception.

You can't always use the liberal bible of turning the other cheek and everybody deserves to be forgiven and given a second chance.

There are crimes that can never be forgiven and this is one of them. Michael Vick does not deserve another chance, and your Vick scenario in GB is freakin ludicrous.

And if you wanna take the emotion out and look at it as a pure football move, it's just plain stupid. I'm sure there are several dog owners on the Packers and no way a dog owner is gonna forgive and forget. Team chemistry is important.

[Waldo]

There are crimes that can never be forgiven and this is one of them.

LOL, mmmk. Vick did not get into the bulk of his trouble for killing dogs.

Vick's rap sheet is not huge. It pretty much has 1 item on it. And the harshness of the sentence and his punishment by the league has absolutely nothing to do with dogs and everything to do with being the primary financier of an illegal interstate gambling ring.

The Golden Boy was only suspended for a year for betting ON FOOTBALL.

The next player to be suspended for a full season for non-drug related items was Pac Man in 2007, by then he had a huge rap sheet.

Do you boycott movies like Iron Man? After all, Robert Downey Jr's rap sheet is as long as all members of the 2006 Bengals team. Combined.


You can't always use the liberal bible of turning the other cheek and everybody deserves to be forgiven and given a second chance.

Bring back firing squads and massively expand capitol punishment. Break the law, off with their head. If people aren't worthy of a second chance, why keep them around? "Liberal bible"? Who's the extreme one here. "Liberal" nowadays means moderate right. "Conservative" means crazy looney bin right. True liberalism died long ago.


And if you wanna take the emotion out and look at it as a pure football move, it's just plain stupid. I'm sure there are several dog owners on the Packers and no way a dog owner is gonna forgive and forget. Team chemistry is important.

Absolutely retarded to put a guy on the roster that can out throw all of your backup QB's, and outrun every RB on the roster, that at one time was the highest paid and most exciting player in the NFL, that may have some skill degradation, but could be used as a backup player and paid backup prices, that is still relevant NFL age. Vick is one of the only players to ever suit up in the NFL that could actually generate all of a teams offense by himself, with absolutely no help from teammates.

Any team that at one time had or flirts with the idea of Brett Favre really doesn't care about chemistry either.

Ahman Green beat his wife. Many Packer players had wives and loved them. Chemistry is important.

You act like he'd be handed the keys to the team, and not be a backup player that gets in for a few plays here and there. Guys as important as and paid like Ruvell Martin don't screw with team chemistry. People have a problem with Vick, beat the crap out of him in practice.

[SkinBasket]

The NFL is full of free agent (independent contractors in a way) that sign with teams for a fixed length of time to provide entertainment services. Like actors, and musicians, etc... Lets not forget what this thing is. And sorry but Michael Vick is a lot more entertaining than at least 80% of the players in the league.

I would rather we focus on guys who are 80% more focused on playing winning football than guys who are 80% more entertaining in losing games and murdering dogs. I find winning entertaining so matter how fast the players run or how many tackles they evade before being sacked.

Not sure if that net 78% gain in entertainment over a player like Flynn would be worth the 96% more baggage and distraction than any other player he brings.

[Patler]

IF there was any justice on this earth, anyone participating in dog fighting in any way shape or form, should be thrown into a cage with a lion or tiger and see what it feels like to be torn apart.

I hope Michael Vick dies a horrible death at some point in time.........

I understand your feelings about dogs, I really do. But ..... the being "torn apart" type of death is fairly natural in the animal world. Isn't that the exact way that most carnivorous animals feed themselves? That's what makes this activity so controversial. The participants argue that the dog fight is no different than what happens in the animal world constantly, one killing another in a vicious manner. In my mind what sets it apart is that humans do it for entertainment. But we have a long history of being entertained by the suffering of both animals and other humans.

[Waldo]

The NFL is full of free agent (independent contractors in a way) that sign with teams for a fixed length of time to provide entertainment services. Like actors, and musicians, etc... Lets not forget what this thing is. And sorry but Michael Vick is a lot more entertaining than at least 80% of the players in the league.

I would rather we focus on guys who are 80% more focused on playing winning football than guys who are 80% more entertaining in losing games and murdering dogs. I find winning entertaining so matter how fast the players run or how many tackles they evade before being sacked.

Not sure if that net 78% gain in entertainment over a player like Flynn would be worth the 96% more baggage and distraction than any other player he brings.

Do you have any idea what Vick's focus is? I would think that a second chance and a stepping stone contract (1-2 yr at vet min) to to prove to the rest of the league that he is a viable player is a chance worth taking.

Vick has won a lot of football games. Remember GB's first ever loss at Lambeau in the playoffs. That was Vick.

He isn't a pocket passer. Nor should he be made into one. MM has flirted with the wildcat in the past (he ran it with Brett and Driver). Vick is by far, heads and tails above all others, the best wildcat QB the NFL has ever seen.

MM has shown a penchant for exotic formations and exotic things. Vick wouldn't even have to take a QB roster spot. If I had to make a choice and could keep 2 between Kuhn, Hall, Moore, Butler, Humphrey, or Vick, and was keeping Johnson, Lee, and Finley, it really wouldn't be a question, Vick would be one of the ones kept unless he was an absolute shell of his former self.

Thing is, Vick's final offense, the WCO with ZBS running, is what we run. Vick wasn't and never will be in AR's league passing, nor probably Brohm or Flynn. But we run what he formerly ran, likely with very similar terminology (the Jags connection)

But it is not too hard to imagine our backups running a wishbone offense with a RB/FB and Vick in the backfield and a QB under center. When handing off/tossing to Vick (or faking), the S's and CB's cannot drop coverage on the WR's (LOL at double fake possibilities, Vick faking running it). You couldn't do this with Vick before because he cost too much. Now also you can use your QB as a weak lead blocker. You normally couldn't do this, but being a backup QB, the guy isn't priced out of that duty, and having 3 backup QB's, injury isn't the end of the world. The whole backup offense would be totally different than the starting offense and fairly sustainable, even with a less than susperstar QB.

Heck with AR we could run the Wildcat and a number of crazy variations (plus the wishbone, minus AR blocking unless it were the playoffs). AR is very athletic, and Vick has enough arm that AR would have to be respected far more than Chad was last year. Our our athletic OL is just meant for crazy wildcat variations.

[Fritz]

Here's what you do. Sign Vick up, and call it the "wild dog" instead of the "wild cat" formation.

Good pub for the dogs.

[Zool]

Here's what you do. Sign Vick up, and call it the "wild dog" instead of the "wild cat" formation.

Good pub for the dogs.

Or if he signed in GB, it could be the Dog Pack formation.

[SkinBasket]

The NFL is full of free agent (independent contractors in a way) that sign with teams for a fixed length of time to provide entertainment services. Like actors, and musicians, etc... Lets not forget what this thing is. And sorry but Michael Vick is a lot more entertaining than at least 80% of the players in the league.

I would rather we focus on guys who are 80% more focused on playing winning football than guys who are 80% more entertaining in losing games and murdering dogs. I find winning entertaining so matter how fast the players run or how many tackles they evade before being sacked.

Not sure if that net 78% gain in entertainment over a player like Flynn would be worth the 96% more baggage and distraction than any other player he brings.

Do you have any idea what Vick's focus is? I would think that a second chance and a stepping stone contract (1-2 yr at vet min) to to prove to the rest of the league that he is a viable player is a chance worth taking.

Vick has won a lot of football games. Remember GB's first ever loss at Lambeau in the playoffs. That was Vick.

He isn't a pocket passer. Nor should he be made into one. MM has flirted with the wildcat in the past (he ran it with Brett and Driver). Vick is by far, heads and tails above all others, the best wildcat QB the NFL has ever seen.

MM has shown a penchant for exotic formations and exotic things. Vick wouldn't even have to take a QB roster spot. If I had to make a choice and could keep 2 between Kuhn, Hall, Moore, Butler, Humphrey, or Vick, and was keeping Johnson, Lee, and Finley, it really wouldn't be a question, Vick would be one of the ones kept unless he was an absolute shell of his former self.

Thing is, Vick's final offense, the WCO with ZBS running, is what we run. Vick wasn't and never will be in AR's league passing, nor probably Brohm or Flynn. But we run what he formerly ran, likely with very similar terminology (the Jags connection)

But it is not too hard to imagine our backups running a wishbone offense with a RB/FB and Vick in the backfield and a QB under center. When handing off/tossing to Vick (or faking), the S's and CB's cannot drop coverage on the WR's (LOL at double fake possibilities, Vick faking running it). You couldn't do this with Vick before because he cost too much. Now also you can use your QB as a weak lead blocker. You normally couldn't do this, but being a backup QB, the guy isn't priced out of that duty, and having 3 backup QB's, injury isn't the end of the world. The whole backup offense would be totally different than the starting offense and fairly sustainable, even with a less than susperstar QB.

Heck with AR we could run the Wildcat and a number of crazy variations (plus the wishbone, minus AR blocking unless it were the playoffs). AR is very athletic, and Vick has enough arm that AR would have to be respected far more than Chad was last year. Our our athletic OL is just meant for crazy wildcat variations.

Do we play the unicorn at WR or TE? If he's at TE, where do we move the leprechaun? If we're changing offenses, bringing in another "ex" QB a year after the Favre fiasco, Vick is willing to play for cheap in a non QB role, the NFL reinstates him, no other team wants him, he's still the same athlete, he's still effective as a rusher/sometime passer/sometime receiver despite not having the advantage of being the primary QB, and GB is willing to ignore or deal with the negative publicity and traveling circus atmosphere this is going to attract the entire season and perhaps beyond, I figure we may as well go all the way.

[Waldo]

I think that you big time overestimate "the circus".

Brett Favre is the traveling circus. Once reinstated, you might see it a little bit in preseason. It might actually be helpful to have an actual suspension then of a few games. By the time he gets back, and suited up on the sidelines, it is old news and not a big deal as long as he stays relatively quiet.

There was no circus and very little negative backlash over Koren Robinson.

The one team thought to be courting Vick moreso than any other is actually the New England Patriots, for the same reason. He is a valuable x factor weapon, a valuable backup QB, and would come very cheap relative to his ability. Bill B. has never been concerned with "the circus". And he's been studying the spread and its derivatives (which the Wildcat is) with Meyer for the last 2 offseasons.

Imagine Vick in the backfield with Maroney, behind Brady, with Moss and Welker outside and Watson at TE. 16-0 yet again. Because nobody else had the nuts to give Vick a chance.

[SkinBasket]

I think that you big time overestimate "the circus".

Brett Favre is the traveling circus. Once reinstated, you might see it a little bit in preseason. It might actually be helpful to have an actual suspension then of a few games. By the time he gets back, and suited up on the sidelines, it is old news and not a big deal as long as he stays relatively quiet.

There was no circus and very little negative backlash over Koren Robinson.

The one team thought to be courting Vick moreso than any other is actually the New England Patriots, for the same reason. He is a valuable x factor weapon, a valuable backup QB, and would come very cheap relative to his ability. Bill B. has never been concerned with "the circus". And he's been studying the spread and its derivatives (which the Wildcat is) with Meyer for the last 2 offseasons.

Imagine Vick in the backfield with Maroney, behind Brady, with Moss and Welker outside and Watson at TE. 16-0 yet again. Because nobody else had the nuts to give Vick a chance.

No one else may want to deal with the signs and chants directed at Vick in their home stadium. No one else may want their brand and logo associated with murdering dogs. No one else may want PETA protesting outside the stadium every week. No one else may want their players, coaches, and administration answering questions every week about Vick and the continued attention he will bring to any team he signs on with.

Brett Favre's circus was worn out before the season even started and it appeared the Jets were worn out with what was left of it at the conclusion of last season. Koren Robinson was guilty of something that, like it or not, a lot of people, especially in Wisconsin, are familiar with and can "relate to."

You've seen it everywhere from these boards to the national media: People are not going to let this go. You can argue that isn't fair compared to other players, but it's undeniable that the feelings that Vick's crime instills in people has failed to diminish over the time he's spent in prison.

[Waldo]

It has been opined several times that Mike Vick is Peta's biggest blessing and its biggest curse.

At first Vick was a blessing. It brought a hotbutton topic to the fore, and attracted more supporters to their cause, in manpower and money.

But, their success, and object of hate, will be their undoing. They will BIG TIME overstep their welcome when it comes to protesting, and embarrass themselves into oblivion in the press.

Protesting doesn't work unless it is short but powerful.

Half the stadium protests for one game.....there is a problem.

Peta shows up at games with 500 people every darn week. By week 4 annoyed drunk tailgaters are throwing beer at them, and it has zero effect on the game being played inside the stadium. The lunatic fringe of their group is exposed to the mainstream by the press. Peta's own success becomes its undoing. Its spotlight and reason to protest, they go too far, and a negative public reaction ensues.

[Lurker64]

Certainly, the Packers would be a reasonable landing spot for Vick since the team is going to have no problem selling out games no matter how many protestors there are.

The question I have, is that if Thompson were to sign Vick this year, whose roster spot does he take? Flynn, Brohm, Lumpkin, Wynn, Ruvell?

[Waldo]

Certainly, the Packers would be a reasonable landing spot for Vick since the team is going to have no problem selling out games no matter how many protestors there are.

The question I have, is that if Thompson were to sign Vick this year, whose roster spot does he take? Flynn, Brohm, Lumpkin, Wynn, Ruvell?

#3 TE or #2 FB IMO, luxury positions IMO.

Which is what a wildcat QB is.

I think year 1, Vick is a wildcat QB for whoever takes him, and he only gets a 1 or 2 year deal (2 year would be ideal IMO because of the tradability if he plays well). He is Pat White x10. If the Wildcat is a fad, the short contract protects the team.

I just hope that he doesn't fall into the Pats hands. Seriously. Anybody else.

[pbmax]

IF there was any justice on this earth, anyone participating in dog fighting in any way shape or form, should be thrown into a cage with a lion or tiger and see what it feels like to be torn apart.

I hope Michael Vick dies a horrible death at some point in time.........

I understand your feelings about dogs, I really do. But ..... the being "torn apart" type of death is fairly natural in the animal world. Isn't that the exact way that most carnivorous animals feed themselves? That's what makes this activity so controversial. The participants argue that the dog fight is no different than what happens in the animal world constantly, one killing another in a vicious manner. In my mind what sets it apart is that humans do it for entertainment. But we have a long history of being entertained by the suffering of both animals and other humans.
The participant's argument might be compelling if it wasn't humans arranging the fights, but the dogs instead. No consent or choice exists to the animal when it exists in these circumstances.

In the wild, the fight over food, territory or mates is determined by the two competitors, no one else normally intervenes. And unless its being filmed by National Geographic, there is no betting.

I'd be surprised if Vick even looks at the Packers under the scenario laid out earlier. Mainly because he will be looking for a one year, incentive laden prove it deal. He might have to take two years if there isn't a clear shot at starting. But what Vick will want is the chance to have a good season, followed by a big time starter sized contract. He would not get that as a Wildcat QB in Green Bay.

[th87]

IF there was any justice on this earth, anyone participating in dog fighting in any way shape or form, should be thrown into a cage with a lion or tiger and see what it feels like to be torn apart.

I hope Michael Vick dies a horrible death at some point in time.........

I understand your feelings about dogs, I really do. But ..... the being "torn apart" type of death is fairly natural in the animal world. Isn't that the exact way that most carnivorous animals feed themselves? That's what makes this activity so controversial. The participants argue that the dog fight is no different than what happens in the animal world constantly, one killing another in a vicious manner. In my mind what sets it apart is that humans do it for entertainment. But we have a long history of being entertained by the suffering of both animals and other humans.
The participant's argument might be compelling if it wasn't humans arranging the fights, but the dogs instead. No consent or choice exists to the animal when it exists in these circumstances.

In the wild, the fight over food, territory or mates is determined by the two competitors, no one else normally intervenes. And unless its being filmed by National Geographic, there is no betting.

I'd be surprised if Vick even looks at the Packers under the scenario laid out earlier. Mainly because he will be looking for a one year, incentive laden prove it deal. He might have to take two years if there isn't a clear shot at starting. But what Vick will want is the chance to have a good season, followed by a big time starter sized contract. He would not get that as a Wildcat QB in Green Bay.

But what would dogs consent to?

Dogs also do not consent to losing their genitals, and becoming someone's pet. It might look really nice and make us feel good that we're taking a dog into our family, but this involves changing a dog's will as well. Are we really doing it for their benefit? Or ours?

How can we be so sure that we're doing dogs such huge favors by taking them in (not counting situations where dogs were abused or abandoned, and the owner is picking them up from the shelter). Maybe they were meant to be wild, fighting, and running around freely. Maybe we're roping them into something akin to a dull marriage - stable, but not preferred.

Of course, again, this does not equate the two situations. One results in dying, and another results in living pretty well. But both situations upset the natural instinct of the dog.

So to which extreme would dogs gravitate if they had their own choices? I don't know.

[th87]

The last post also underscores the fact that we as humans use animals to our own ends all the time, good or bad.

Rats are bred and pumped with all kinds of diseases to test certain drugs. They suffer through cancer and the rest of our worst ailments. Then they are discarded when their purpose is met.

These rats are used purely for our benefit. There is no consideration whatsoever of the well-being and lives of the rats. Therefore, we use the rats to benefit our own lives.

Vick and co. used and abused dogs purely for their own benefit, without consideration of their well-being and lives. They benefited their own lives by partaking in recreation and making money.

So of course, it is good to save human lives at the expense of a rat's. And it is bad to gamble at the expense of a dog.

But would we be outraged if dogs were used to conduct lab experiments? I would guess yes. And would we be outraged if Vick ran a rat-fighting ring? I highly doubt it.

So this would seem to suggest that we have an arbitrary cultural bias towards dogs. This is ONLY because Americans (primarily) consider dogs as their friends. And because Vick grew up in a culture that doesn't consider dogs as their friends, he saw them as disposable as we do the lab rats (or the rat-fighters in the hypothetical example).

This does not make Vick evil. It makes him a person who was conditioned differently from the rest of us. And I think he's learned his lesson.

[th87]

Gunakor, as far as Vick goes, what debt does he have yet to pay to society?

Prove that he's done dogfighting, talk to and work with organizations to stop others who are engaged in dogfighting, work with animal rights groups, etc.

Let me ask you this: What debt has Vick paid to society simply by spending time behind bars? How does one make things right in the eyes of society while incarcerated? What has Vick done specifically? I would think that those of us who have NOT spent time behind bars have paid more towards society than anyone who has. I give no credit to a criminal simply for serving his punishment.

There are far more pressing issues on this planet than curbing dog-fighting. I would prefer that he devote his time to educating the youth or feeding the hungry.

Technically, Vick incurred a debt to the justice system that he subsequently paid. The justice system represents our society, and is the entity that exacts payback for society when society has been wronged.

You can say that by serving his sentence, he now has a society-account balance of 0.00. If it goes negative, he's back in jail, and if it goes positive, he'll stay free.

So outside of this accounting system, he owes me nothing. I'm not emotionally invested in his career. I have no problem with him playing football even if he doesn't repent - I just won't like him. And if that does occur, the system will correct itself. He'll lose money for his franchise and will be dismissed.

But if he shows repentance and wanting to do right after his reinstatement, I'd have great respect for him. I'm okay with him taking those steps even after he starts playing again, because right now, I'm assuming that he's changed after his humbling experience, and am willing to give him a chance to see if he did.

[th87]

If God didn't want us to eat cows, then why are they made out of all that good meat?


So true! :)

[mraynrand]

So to which extreme would dogs gravitate if they had their own choices? I don't know.

They would want to sniff other dog's rear ends.

[mraynrand]

Rats are bred and pumped with all kinds of diseases to test certain drugs. They suffer through cancer and the rest of our worst ailments. Then they are discarded when their purpose is met.

This sort of reminds me reminds me of Cleft Crusty. But really, do rats 'suffer?'

[mraynrand]

There is no consideration whatsoever of the well-being and lives of the rats.

You should see the write up an IRB (institutional review board) on animal research. Research rats are treated better than geezers in a nursing home (well, except for the actual experiment and the sacrificing, but you get the point).

[ThunderDan]

I think the big issue with dogfighting and animal cruelty in general is that it usually is the doorway to lifetime/hard criminals.

While it doesn't happen in every case, a large majority of the prison population at one time or another purposely hurt animals. (I am not talking about hunting, medical research or food production) Research suggests that if you can disregard the damage to the animal it is easier to disassociate with the damage done to humans.

[pbmax]

But what would dogs consent to?

Dogs also do not consent to losing their genitals, and becoming someone's pet. It might look really nice and make us feel good that we're taking a dog into our family, but this involves changing a dog's will as well. Are we really doing it for their benefit? Or ours?
I doubt the dogs would choose to die by electrocution or losing their genitals. But because we find one option necessary doesn't mean the other must be permitted. Because humans find uses for domesticated animals doesn't permit any treatment.

No animal chooses to be domesticated. Which means we assume some responsibility for their well being. Somehow, I can't see how dog fighting contributes to the well being of dogs. And unlike spaying or neutering, it is not necessary to keep a healthy population level.

[Patler]

But would we be outraged if dogs were used to conduct lab experiments? I would guess yes. And would we be outraged if Vick ran a rat-fighting ring? I highly doubt it.

So this would seem to suggest that we have an arbitrary cultural bias towards dogs. This is ONLY because Americans (primarily) consider dogs as their friends. And because Vick grew up in a culture that doesn't consider dogs as their friends, he saw them as disposable as we do the lab rats (or the rat-fighters in the hypothetical example).

This does not make Vick evil. It makes him a person who was conditioned differently from the rest of us. And I think he's learned his lesson.

I think there clearly is a cultural bias towards dogs. Cock fighting is just as illegal, and while people object to it, there is not the same passion as for stories about dog fighting. But then, the average rooster is not nearly as cuddly as a dog.

[Zool]

I would go to a rat fight.

[Deputy Nutz]

I would go to a rat fight.

I would go see you fight a rat.

[Deputy Nutz]

The last post also underscores the fact that we as humans use animals to our own ends all the time, good or bad.

Rats are bred and pumped with all kinds of diseases to test certain drugs. They suffer through cancer and the rest of our worst ailments. Then they are discarded when their purpose is met.

These rats are used purely for our benefit. There is no consideration whatsoever of the well-being and lives of the rats. Therefore, we use the rats to benefit our own lives.

Vick and co. used and abused dogs purely for their own benefit, without consideration of their well-being and lives. They benefited their own lives by partaking in recreation and making money.

So of course, it is good to save human lives at the expense of a rat's. And it is bad to gamble at the expense of a dog.

But would we be outraged if dogs were used to conduct lab experiments? I would guess yes. And would we be outraged if Vick ran a rat-fighting ring? I highly doubt it.

So this would seem to suggest that we have an arbitrary cultural bias towards dogs. This is ONLY because Americans (primarily) consider dogs as their friends. And because Vick grew up in a culture that doesn't consider dogs as their friends, he saw them as disposable as we do the lab rats (or the rat-fighters in the hypothetical example).

This does not make Vick evil. It makes him a person who was conditioned differently from the rest of us. And I think he's learned his lesson.

I think you are a sick fuck regardless of culture when you decide to torture an animal, and beat an animal to death because of your own personal gain.

i get dog fighting, what I don't get is the poor fucking treatment of these animals before and after the fight. I guess using the cultureral outlet means that African Americans are sick fucks that love to kick the shit out of dogs. Excuse me, African Americans in the South. Is Virginia even considered the South anymore? Where does the blame get shifted to next? I know you didn't specifically blame the Black Culture for dog fighting, you just said he is conditioned differently. Well I guess it would be an argument if you said that the culture that he was raised in were indifferent to dogs. Not a culture that abused animals.

[Freak Out]

Is Virginia even considered the South anymore?

Go to Richmond.

[Patler]

I think you are a sick fuck regardless of culture when you decide to torture an animal, and beat an animal to death because of your own personal gain.

i get dog fighting, what I don't get is the poor fucking treatment of these animals before and after the fight. I guess using the cultureral outlet means that African Americans are sick fucks that love to kick the shit out of dogs. Excuse me, African Americans in the South. Is Virginia even considered the South anymore? Where does the blame get shifted to next? I know you didn't specifically blame the Black Culture for dog fighting, you just said he is conditioned differently. Well I guess it would be an argument if you said that the culture that he was raised in were indifferent to dogs. Not a culture that abused animals.

Yet bullfighting has been practiced openly and accepted as a cultural ritual for a very long time. The bull is openly maimed in a traditional Spanish style bullfight by severing muscle with a lance and inserting barbs into the muscles to keep the bulls head low during the "fight" with the matador. The fight can go on for a long time from the first lancing, with the bull suffering and bleeding profusely before he is killed. Again, all for the entertainment of the spectators.

Instead of one dog maiming another, we have humans maiming a bull. Is it really so different?

[Scott Campbell]

I think you are a sick fuck regardless of culture when you decide to torture an animal, and beat an animal to death because of your own personal gain.

i get dog fighting, what I don't get is the poor fucking treatment of these animals before and after the fight. I guess using the cultureral outlet means that African Americans are sick fucks that love to kick the shit out of dogs. Excuse me, African Americans in the South. Is Virginia even considered the South anymore? Where does the blame get shifted to next? I know you didn't specifically blame the Black Culture for dog fighting, you just said he is conditioned differently. Well I guess it would be an argument if you said that the culture that he was raised in were indifferent to dogs. Not a culture that abused animals.

Yet bullfighting has been practiced openly and accepted as a cultural ritual for a very long time. The bull is openly maimed in a traditional Spanish style bullfight by severing muscle with a lance and inserting barbs into the muscles to keep the bulls head low during the "fight" with the matador. The fight can go on for a long time from the first lancing, with the bull suffering and bleeding profusely before he is killed. Again, all for the entertainment of the spectators.

Instead of one dog maiming another, we have humans maiming a bull. Is it really so different?


Neither form of entertainment is acceptable, or legal here.

[pbmax]

African Americans are hardly the only race/ethnicity to practice dog fighting in this country. KYPack posted on the number of reports he sees locally (he specifically mentions Kentucky and Indiana as having laws preventing the fights that are less strict than other jurisdictions) are more often poor whites engaging in this activity.

And as Patler points out about bullfighting, it can affect any culture. Economic status probably is a better indicator in dog or cockfighting. And as with anything, cultural conditioning might explain the behavior across a large population of people, it doesn't make any individual guiltless of acting inhumanely.

[Patler]

I think you are a sick fuck regardless of culture when you decide to torture an animal, and beat an animal to death because of your own personal gain.

i get dog fighting, what I don't get is the poor fucking treatment of these animals before and after the fight. I guess using the cultureral outlet means that African Americans are sick fucks that love to kick the shit out of dogs. Excuse me, African Americans in the South. Is Virginia even considered the South anymore? Where does the blame get shifted to next? I know you didn't specifically blame the Black Culture for dog fighting, you just said he is conditioned differently. Well I guess it would be an argument if you said that the culture that he was raised in were indifferent to dogs. Not a culture that abused animals.

Yet bullfighting has been practiced openly and accepted as a cultural ritual for a very long time. The bull is openly maimed in a traditional Spanish style bullfight by severing muscle with a lance and inserting barbs into the muscles to keep the bulls head low during the "fight" with the matador. The fight can go on for a long time from the first lancing, with the bull suffering and bleeding profusely before he is killed. Again, all for the entertainment of the spectators.

Instead of one dog maiming another, we have humans maiming a bull. Is it really so different?


Neither form of entertainment is acceptable, or legal here.

Sure, but are our standards necessarily the right standards?

Is it OK to raise dogs, butcher them humanely and eat them? Some people do it, but I suspect most Americans find it reprehensible. Yet we raise, butcher and eat cows without a second thought for most of us.

[MOBB DEEP]

Is Virginia even considered the South anymore?

Go to Richmond.

exactly! or roanoke....

[MichiganPackerFan]

I just moved to the area, but am I right that Northern Virginia (NOVA) bears no resemblence whatsoever to the rest of the state?

[Scott Campbell]

I think you are a sick fuck regardless of culture when you decide to torture an animal, and beat an animal to death because of your own personal gain.

i get dog fighting, what I don't get is the poor fucking treatment of these animals before and after the fight. I guess using the cultureral outlet means that African Americans are sick fucks that love to kick the shit out of dogs. Excuse me, African Americans in the South. Is Virginia even considered the South anymore? Where does the blame get shifted to next? I know you didn't specifically blame the Black Culture for dog fighting, you just said he is conditioned differently. Well I guess it would be an argument if you said that the culture that he was raised in were indifferent to dogs. Not a culture that abused animals.

Yet bullfighting has been practiced openly and accepted as a cultural ritual for a very long time. The bull is openly maimed in a traditional Spanish style bullfight by severing muscle with a lance and inserting barbs into the muscles to keep the bulls head low during the "fight" with the matador. The fight can go on for a long time from the first lancing, with the bull suffering and bleeding profusely before he is killed. Again, all for the entertainment of the spectators.

Instead of one dog maiming another, we have humans maiming a bull. Is it really so different?


Neither form of entertainment is acceptable, or legal here.

Sure, but are our standards necessarily the right standards?

At this point in time I think the answer is yes.

[Patler]

Neither form of entertainment is acceptable, or legal here.
Sure, but are our standards necessarily the right standards?

At this point in time I think the answer is yes.

Perhaps then you would like to address the second part of my last post, of which you repeated only the easily answered part?:


Is it OK to raise dogs, butcher them humanely and eat them? Some people do it, but I suspect most Americans find it reprehensible. Yet we raise, butcher and eat cows without a second thought for most of us.

[MOBB DEEP]

I just moved to the area, but am I right that Northern Virginia (NOVA) bears no resemblence whatsoever to the rest of the state?

BINGO!

fairfax county is probably top 5 most affluent counties in the country

start traveling south and its worlds apart

same as maryland; the counties closet to the DC metropolitan area are nice but travel past charles county u run into some impoverished rural folk who some times dont have running water!

i used to live in alexandria, va for 2 years off of route 1....u near there?

[hoosier]

I think you are a sick fuck regardless of culture when you decide to torture an animal, and beat an animal to death because of your own personal gain.

i get dog fighting, what I don't get is the poor fucking treatment of these animals before and after the fight. I guess using the cultureral outlet means that African Americans are sick fucks that love to kick the shit out of dogs. Excuse me, African Americans in the South. Is Virginia even considered the South anymore? Where does the blame get shifted to next? I know you didn't specifically blame the Black Culture for dog fighting, you just said he is conditioned differently. Well I guess it would be an argument if you said that the culture that he was raised in were indifferent to dogs. Not a culture that abused animals.

Yet bullfighting has been practiced openly and accepted as a cultural ritual for a very long time. The bull is openly maimed in a traditional Spanish style bullfight by severing muscle with a lance and inserting barbs into the muscles to keep the bulls head low during the "fight" with the matador. The fight can go on for a long time from the first lancing, with the bull suffering and bleeding profusely before he is killed. Again, all for the entertainment of the spectators.

Instead of one dog maiming another, we have humans maiming a bull. Is it really so different?


Neither form of entertainment is acceptable, or legal here.

Sure, but are our standards necessarily the right standards?

Is it OK to raise dogs, butcher them humanely and eat them? Some people do it, but I suspect most Americans find it reprehensible. Yet we raise, butcher and eat cows without a second thought for most of us.

If only they could learn to stop asking what's in the funny looking dish with water chestnuts and bean sprouts! :lol:

[MJZiggy]

Patler, to answer the whole question, how 'bout this?

I think that dog fighting and the associated mistreatment is reprehensible. Same with bullfighting. They just torture and disable the thing making it an unfair fight to begin with. I've never seen a bullfight but have known people who went and left disgusted after a short while. I think if I were to go, I'd sort of be rooting for the bull. Not that it will help him any. I feel the same way about cockfighting and ratfighting. There's no purpose and our entertainment is not worth killing.

That said, we are carnivores and animals raised for the purpose of feeding us and killed humanely are a different story. I have dogs as companions and would not choose to eat them, nor do I eat lamb or veal or goose liver pate. I would never hunt, but the folks who do who then eat their quarry are not the same as people who senselessly torture animals.

I do go to the state fair and have seen the cows (usually with a superimposed steak cut drawing--think cartoon reaction here). I choose not to become buddies with them, because really I need my protein.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I hope Vick makes a successful comeback.

I read columns today suggesting that Vick become a spokesperson for animal rights. Gag me with a spoon. Why pretend?

I hope Vick is a changed person, but I doubt our ability to tell.

[Harlan Huckleby]

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/07/22/sports/22williams_600.jpg

Ricky Williams is doing well, he's training to be an acupuncturist and massage therapist for his after-football career.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/22/sports/football/22williams.html

[Patler]

Patler, to answer the whole question, how 'bout this?

I think that dog fighting and the associated mistreatment is reprehensible. Same with bullfighting. They just torture and disable the thing making it an unfair fight to begin with. I've never seen a bullfight but have known people who went and left disgusted after a short while. I think if I were to go, I'd sort of be rooting for the bull. Not that it will help him any. I feel the same way about cockfighting and ratfighting. There's no purpose and our entertainment is not worth killing.

That said, we are carnivores and animals raised for the purpose of feeding us and killed humanely are a different story. I have dogs as companions and would not choose to eat them, nor do I eat lamb or veal or goose liver pate. I would never hunt, but the folks who do who then eat their quarry are not the same as people who senselessly torture animals.

I do go to the state fair and have seen the cows (usually with a superimposed steak cut drawing--think cartoon reaction here). I choose not to become buddies with them, because really I need my protein.

That's where I draw the line too, intentionally causing severe harm and/or death for entertainment versus death for food. The first is a complete waste, the second a legitimate use.

I have no objection to those who eat dog. I don't think it is up to me to decide which animals should be eaten and which not.

[KYPack]

nor do I eat lamb or veal or goose liver pate.

WTF, Zig?

It's Braunschweiger, but from geese.

What's the big deal?

[Harlan Huckleby]

they force-feed the geese in a pretty brutal manner to get their livers to enlarge.

or some such thing.

[SkinBasket]

they force-feed the geese in a pretty brutal manner to get their livers to enlarge.

or some such thing.

Foie gras. More common with ducks than geese. Ducks are idiots so it's okay to stuff them full of liver-enlarging food. Geese are smarter, but I don't care about them. I've had one of each attempt to bite me with their stupid bills in my life, so I say fuck em in the ass if that makes them taste better.

I don't eat foie gras because I think it's gross. I do eat non-enlarged turkey heart, but none of that other garbage they call giblets. I currently hold the captured souls of at least three dozen turkeys in my stomach. Maybe that's why I don't like foie gras. Stupid birds.

[mraynrand]

they force-feed the geese in a pretty brutal manner to get their livers to enlarge.

So what's wrong with that?

http://australian-bodybuilding.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/alexander-draper.jpg

[bobblehead]

I think you are a sick fuck regardless of culture when you decide to torture an animal, and beat an animal to death because of your own personal gain.

i get dog fighting, what I don't get is the poor fucking treatment of these animals before and after the fight. I guess using the cultureral outlet means that African Americans are sick fucks that love to kick the shit out of dogs. Excuse me, African Americans in the South. Is Virginia even considered the South anymore? Where does the blame get shifted to next? I know you didn't specifically blame the Black Culture for dog fighting, you just said he is conditioned differently. Well I guess it would be an argument if you said that the culture that he was raised in were indifferent to dogs. Not a culture that abused animals.

Yet bullfighting has been practiced openly and accepted as a cultural ritual for a very long time. The bull is openly maimed in a traditional Spanish style bullfight by severing muscle with a lance and inserting barbs into the muscles to keep the bulls head low during the "fight" with the matador. The fight can go on for a long time from the first lancing, with the bull suffering and bleeding profusely before he is killed. Again, all for the entertainment of the spectators.

Instead of one dog maiming another, we have humans maiming a bull. Is it really so different?


Neither form of entertainment is acceptable, or legal here.

Sure, but are our standards necessarily the right standards?

Is it OK to raise dogs, butcher them humanely and eat them? Some people do it, but I suspect most Americans find it reprehensible. Yet we raise, butcher and eat cows without a second thought for most of us.

If only they could learn to stop asking what's in the funny looking dish with water chestnuts and bean sprouts! :lol:

way to perpetuate racial/cultural stereotypes....I know, your a liberal so its okay.

[Fritz]

Patler, to answer the whole question, how 'bout this?

I think that dog fighting and the associated mistreatment is reprehensible. Same with bullfighting. They just torture and disable the thing making it an unfair fight to begin with. I've never seen a bullfight but have known people who went and left disgusted after a short while. I think if I were to go, I'd sort of be rooting for the bull. Not that it will help him any. I feel the same way about cockfighting and ratfighting. There's no purpose and our entertainment is not worth killing.

That said, we are carnivores and animals raised for the purpose of feeding us and killed humanely are a different story. I have dogs as companions and would not choose to eat them, nor do I eat lamb or veal or goose liver pate. I would never hunt, but the folks who do who then eat their quarry are not the same as people who senselessly torture animals.

I do go to the state fair and have seen the cows (usually with a superimposed steak cut drawing--think cartoon reaction here). I choose not to become buddies with them, because really I need my protein.

That's where I draw the line too, intentionally causing severe harm and/or death for entertainment versus death for food. The first is a complete waste, the second a legitimate use.

I have no objection to those who eat dog. I don't think it is up to me to decide which animals should be eaten and which not.

No, it's not. I believe McDonald's is making those decisions... :D

[Lurker64]

they force-feed the geese in a pretty brutal manner to get their livers to enlarge.

I just don't eat liver. It's a filter for poisons, why would I put it in my body?

[Tarlam!]

...Same with bullfighting. They just torture and disable the thing making it an unfair fight to begin with. I've never seen a bullfight but have known people who went and left disgusted after a short while. I think if I were to go, I'd sort of be rooting for the bull. Not that it will help him any. I feel the same way about cockfighting and ratfighting. There's no purpose and our entertainment is not worth killing.

My kids and some friends had a vigorous discussion about bullfighting and to a person concluded that the "sport" is actually a good thing for the bulls involved.

I have attended a bullfight. Appreciating it is probably impossible if you don't know the "rules". A lot like Chess, Cricket or, dare-I-say, Gridiron? Aesthetics aside, here's what I think about bullfighting and by default, why there is no comparison to dog/cockfighting:

Ultimately, fighting bulls owe their very existence to the "sport" and what an existence it is (in bull terms). They are pampered their entire very long bull lives, eat only the finest, roam only the grassiest, breed with only the "sexiest" etc etc etc. Then, they are killed in "battle", which, BTW, is what bulls live to do. Bulls, in general, have a very short agenda; they want to eat, drink, produce compost, mate and fight. They love to fight. The adrenalin they produce during a fight (either against another bull or a human) nullifies their ability to properly perceive, acknowledge and, ultimately, accept pain.

Fighting bulls may know they are in a fight to the death, but it isn't fear that grips them; I believe they always engage ready to die defending their turf. Fear is not in their limited vocabulary.

Nor is it pain that has them attack the Picadores' horses or make runs at the various capes. Bulls charge habitually.

Compare the fighting bull's existence to that of a bull bred for it's meat only. The term "meat production" does not inspire me with a gushy warm glow with regard to a bull's life and death here. In most parts of the world, such animals are kept in pens their entire lives to ease the load on the producers' lives, are shot full of hormones to "enhance" growth, antibiotics to prohibit infection and are slaughtered before they ever "meet" a cow. Then, they are consumed. The domestic food-type bull owes it's very short bull existence to satisfying my desire to eat it.

Scientific evidence concludes that pigs "know" they are about to be slaughtered and many suffer heart failures before the actual slaughtering (scared to death, as it were). I suspect cattle also have an inkling of what's to come and that simply cannot be pleasant.

Wild bulls (Ox, buffaloes) often fight and mortally wound each other. Their death can take days or weeks to set in and must be painful indeed!

In essence, the "death by sword" is comparatively humane.

Ask yourself this, Ziggy (et al): If you were a bull, would you rather live and die like the fighting bull, the wild bull or the domestic food bull?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullfighting
http://www.expatica.com/es/essentials_moving_to/essentials/Bullfighting-in-Spain_13768.html

Fighting dogs are "animated" to fight during their "training" which is where any comparison to bulls ends; cocks and siamese fighting fish naturally fight, but I don't know that betting on the outcome of a bullfight makes much sense.

[Patler]

I just don't eat liver. It's a filter for poisons, why would I put it in my body?

Because it tastes really good with onions?

[MichiganPackerFan]

I just don't eat liver. It's a filter for poisons, why would I put it in my body?

Because it tastes really good with onions?

Nice use of the Delicious Strategy. Hard to argue with Delicious. :drma:

[Zool]

Tar, do they tie rope around the bullfighters nuts too or just the bull?

[SkinBasket]

Tar, do they tie rope around the bullfighters nuts too or just the bull?

Go hug a tree you hippie.

[Tarlam!]

Tar, do they tie rope around the bullfighters nuts too or just the bull?

You've seen the tight pants they wear and still you gotta ask?

[Zool]

Tar, do they tie rope around the bullfighters nuts too or just the bull?

Go hug a tree you hippie.

Inquiring minds what to know. I figured you might want some new knot tying techniques for your Tuesday nights.

[MOBB DEEP]

the herd on espn is reporting that Vick allegedly went to a strip club the day he got off of house arrest! foolish....why do these cats find those places such a draw? thats something that i did when i was 23 years old and was urged by my frat brothers (youthful indescretions)

its not a place that a super grown man should find appealing in my opinion; especially someone in vicks situation...not to sound holier than thou b/c we ALL have our shortcomings and fall short of the glory of god (i.e., porn and strippers arent MY struggle but pre-marital sex and lust has been. and we cant weigh sins or judge), but some things u CANT do (break the law) and some things u SHOULDNT do (immoral activities), especailly in public....not like its illegal but if u live with your fiance (she's hot btw), are trying to be reinstated, have the money to do other FUN and wholesome things, and have the privilege of being a role model, why would naked, self-deprecating women be of interest?

go visit family and/or take your woman out...seems double minded to meet with the great tony dungy and then turn around and go to a house of ill repute.....sigh....i dont get it....well at least he wasnt breakn the law again

hope GODdell doesnt use it against him

[Fritz]

the herd on espn is reporting that Vick allegedly went to a strip club the day he got off of house arrest! foolish....why do these cats find those places such a draw? thats something that i did when i was 23 years old and was urged by my frat brothers (youthful indescretions)

its not a place that a super grown man should find appealing in my opinion; especially someone in vicks situation...not to sound holier than thou b/c we ALL have our shortcomings and fall short of the glory of god (i.e., porn and strippers arent MY struggle but pre-marital sex and lust has been. and we cant weigh sins or judge), but some things u CANT do (break the law) and some things u SHOULDNT do (immoral activities), especailly in public....not like its illegal but if u live with your fiance (she's hot btw), are trying to be reinstated, have the money to do other FUN and wholesome things, and have the privilege of being a role model, why would naked, self-deprecating women be of interest?

go visit family and/or take your woman out...seems double minded to meet with the great tony dungy and then turn around and go to a house of ill repute.....sigh....i dont get it....well at least he wasnt breakn the law again

hope GODdell doesnt use it against him

Or take your woman to the strip club?

[Tarlam!]

Or take your woman to the strip club?

That'd work for me. :?:

[Waldo]

I don't think that Vick has a woman.

After 2 years of prison.....I can understand where he is coming from. It is possible to behave and be a gentleman in a place like that (mind you I've only ever been to one of those places once in my life, though it didn't strike me as a crime ridden slum house).

It is probably better for him that he doesn't go hunting the bar scene looking for easy girls right now. That whole Big Ben thing comes to mind.

Pac Man kinda ruined it. Most guys can behave in places like that. Pac Man couldn't.

[Fritz]

I don't think that Vick has a woman.

After 2 years of prison.....I can understand where he is coming from. It is possible to behave and be a gentleman in a place like that (mind you I've only ever been to one of those places once in my life, though it didn't strike me as a crime ridden slum house).

It is probably better for him that he doesn't go hunting the bar scene looking for easy girls right now. That whole Big Ben thing comes to mind.

Pac Man kinda ruined it. Most guys can behave in places like that. Pac Man couldn't.

Was Cory Rodgers at a strip club when the gun incident occurred? Or was that just a nightclub?

Most guys can behave in places like that mostly because there's huge bouncers there to make sure people do behave. If you have a "posse" and you're built like an NFL player, and you've been told all your football life you can pretty much have what you want, it might be tough to behave. It's one of those instances were the potential media glare is probably useful. Do you really want the world - and your wife/girlfriend/mom - to know you were urinating on a stripper while you shot your pistol into the sky down in Georgia last week?

Not I. I prefer that only my close associates be aware of these things.

[SkinBasket]

I don't think that Vick has a woman.

After 2 years of prison.....I can understand where he is coming from. It is possible to behave and be a gentleman in a place like that (mind you I've only ever been to one of those places once in my life, though it didn't strike me as a crime ridden slum house).

It is probably better for him that he doesn't go hunting the bar scene looking for easy girls right now. That whole Big Ben thing comes to mind.

Pac Man kinda ruined it. Most guys can behave in places like that. Pac Man couldn't.

That's the thing. Besides the naked women, strip clubs are pretty lame. They aren't the dirty dangerous places that are depicted in the movies. Especially not the ones where you're going to find someone like Vick.

I think it was a stupid thing to do as far as his hopes for reinstatement go - but wholly and entirely understandable on a human level for a guy who's being who's been banging an asscrack (not judging) or nothing for 20 some odd months. Really, going to a strip club is like taking a shit. You should be able to go do it without everyone asking where you where and what you did. It's not like went out and hired a she-male prostitute then murdered her in the morning.

[Freak Out]

If the guy is looking for sex he should be able to pay for the service legally if he so chooses.

Maybe making a strip joint his first stop after getting out was not the smartest thing for him to do but perhaps that was the only place he knew of where he could get some nookie. As anyone knows who has spent even a little time in a strip club there is lots of wheeling and dealing going on for "special" services. After being locked up for a couple years I'd be looking for some action as well.

My Grandfather was the territorial police chief of ketchikan Alaska for a few years and he knew the importance of prostitutes. :lol: Without them there would have been chaos in what then was a logging/fishing town full of hard working single men.

[Rastak]

Per PFT.com, looks like Vick might get off with a mere 4 game suspension for the whole thing. Amazing.

[Fritz]

Per PFT.com, looks like Vick might get off with a mere 4 game suspension for the whole thing. Amazing.

If he'd known he'd get off with that, he might not've gone to the strip club at all! :rs:

[Brando19]

Per PFT.com, looks like Vick might get off with a mere 4 game suspension for the whole thing. Amazing.

Not to mention the time he spent in prison and the millions and millions he lost.

[Rastak]

Per PFT.com, looks like Vick might get off with a mere 4 game suspension for the whole thing. Amazing.

Not to mention the time he spent in prison and the millions and millions he lost.


Not relevent to any punishment by the NFL. That was the US legal system. He couldn't play anyway while in prison. That's why he lost millions. That's what happens you do illegal things.

[Gunakor]

Per PFT.com, looks like Vick might get off with a mere 4 game suspension for the whole thing. Amazing.

Not to mention the time he spent in prison and the millions and millions he lost.


Not relevent to any punishment by the NFL. That was the US legal system. He couldn't play anyway while in prison. That's why he lost millions. That's what happens you do illegal things.

Exactly. His legal punishment and financial loss were beyond the control of the NFL. They should not be linked to league discipline whatsoever. Goodell should not feel "sorry" for Vick, and neither should the NFL or any of it's teams or their fans. This is an outrage if Vick is playing football in the NFL by October. Especially considering the hard stance Goodell has taken with other players guilty of lesser crimes.

[Freak Out]

What kind of probation rules is Vick under? I take it he has community service to do? That would probably stop him from playing for a while.

[Deputy Nutz]

I think you are a sick fuck regardless of culture when you decide to torture an animal, and beat an animal to death because of your own personal gain.

i get dog fighting, what I don't get is the poor fucking treatment of these animals before and after the fight. I guess using the cultureral outlet means that African Americans are sick fucks that love to kick the shit out of dogs. Excuse me, African Americans in the South. Is Virginia even considered the South anymore? Where does the blame get shifted to next? I know you didn't specifically blame the Black Culture for dog fighting, you just said he is conditioned differently. Well I guess it would be an argument if you said that the culture that he was raised in were indifferent to dogs. Not a culture that abused animals.

Yet bullfighting has been practiced openly and accepted as a cultural ritual for a very long time. The bull is openly maimed in a traditional Spanish style bullfight by severing muscle with a lance and inserting barbs into the muscles to keep the bulls head low during the "fight" with the matador. The fight can go on for a long time from the first lancing, with the bull suffering and bleeding profusely before he is killed. Again, all for the entertainment of the spectators.

Instead of one dog maiming another, we have humans maiming a bull. Is it really so different?


Neither form of entertainment is acceptable, or legal here.

Sure, but are our standards necessarily the right standards?

Is it OK to raise dogs, butcher them humanely and eat them? Some people do it, but I suspect most Americans find it reprehensible. Yet we raise, butcher and eat cows without a second thought for most of us.

They do eat the bull afterwards if that makes you feel any better. I don't think Vick, and company ate dogs, at the very least I don't even think they sent them to Korea.

[Fritz]

I think you are a sick fuck regardless of culture when you decide to torture an animal, and beat an animal to death because of your own personal gain.

i get dog fighting, what I don't get is the poor fucking treatment of these animals before and after the fight. I guess using the cultureral outlet means that African Americans are sick fucks that love to kick the shit out of dogs. Excuse me, African Americans in the South. Is Virginia even considered the South anymore? Where does the blame get shifted to next? I know you didn't specifically blame the Black Culture for dog fighting, you just said he is conditioned differently. Well I guess it would be an argument if you said that the culture that he was raised in were indifferent to dogs. Not a culture that abused animals.

Yet bullfighting has been practiced openly and accepted as a cultural ritual for a very long time. The bull is openly maimed in a traditional Spanish style bullfight by severing muscle with a lance and inserting barbs into the muscles to keep the bulls head low during the "fight" with the matador. The fight can go on for a long time from the first lancing, with the bull suffering and bleeding profusely before he is killed. Again, all for the entertainment of the spectators.

Instead of one dog maiming another, we have humans maiming a bull. Is it really so different?


Neither form of entertainment is acceptable, or legal here.

Sure, but are our standards necessarily the right standards?

Is it OK to raise dogs, butcher them humanely and eat them? Some people do it, but I suspect most Americans find it reprehensible. Yet we raise, butcher and eat cows without a second thought for most of us.

They do eat the bull afterwards if that makes you feel any better. I don't think Vick, and company ate dogs, at the very least I don't even think they sent them to Korea.

I don't know why, but I love that line - "butcher them humanely."

[MOBB DEEP]

I don't think that Vick has a woman.



he has a fiance'

[Freak Out]

It looks like Ron could end up playing this year after all.

[pbmax]

Per PFT.com, looks like Vick might get off with a mere 4 game suspension for the whole thing. Amazing.

Not to mention the time he spent in prison and the millions and millions he lost.


Not relevent to any punishment by the NFL. That was the US legal system. He couldn't play anyway while in prison. That's why he lost millions. That's what happens you do illegal things.

Exactly. His legal punishment and financial loss were beyond the control of the NFL. They should not be linked to league discipline whatsoever. Goodell should not feel "sorry" for Vick, and neither should the NFL or any of it's teams or their fans. This is an outrage if Vick is playing football in the NFL by October. Especially considering the hard stance Goodell has taken with other players guilty of lesser crimes.
So the alternative is to pretend Vick has been playing football all along for the last two years? Why must the commissioner of the NFL be mandated to suspend players consecutive to their sentence? Courts can sentence criminals to concurrent terms, why shouldn't a private enterprise?

Some of the players suspended by Goodell have not been sentenced to jail time (Pac Man's original suspension). It is clear he does take that into consideration. Does anyone believe that if Pac Man had done a year for the strip club incidents that he would do another year for the NFL?

[Rastak]

Per PFT.com, looks like Vick might get off with a mere 4 game suspension for the whole thing. Amazing.

Not to mention the time he spent in prison and the millions and millions he lost.


Not relevent to any punishment by the NFL. That was the US legal system. He couldn't play anyway while in prison. That's why he lost millions. That's what happens you do illegal things.

Exactly. His legal punishment and financial loss were beyond the control of the NFL. They should not be linked to league discipline whatsoever. Goodell should not feel "sorry" for Vick, and neither should the NFL or any of it's teams or their fans. This is an outrage if Vick is playing football in the NFL by October. Especially considering the hard stance Goodell has taken with other players guilty of lesser crimes.
So the alternative is to pretend Vick has been playing football all along for the last two years? Why must the commissioner of the NFL be mandated to suspend players consecutive to their sentence? Courts can sentence criminals to concurrent terms, why shouldn't a private enterprise?

Some of the players suspended by Goodell have not been sentenced to jail time (Pac Man's original suspension). It is clear he does take that into consideration. Does anyone believe that if Pac Man had done a year for the strip club incidents that he would do another year for the NFL?


I'll take this one PB. Since I've been old enough to understand the concept, I've yet to figure out why the idea of concurrent terms even exists. I beat you senseless and take your wallet. I get sentenced for 2 years for beating the hell out of you. I get 6 months for stealing your money and spending it. I get to serve concurrently. I essentially get nothing for stealing your money. Hell if I just felt like beating the hell out of you and letting you keep your cash it's all the same with the justice system.

[mraynrand]

I'll take this one PB. Since I've been old enough to understand the concept, I've yet to figure out why the idea of concurrent terms even exists. I beat you senseless and take your wallet. I get sentenced for 2 years for beating the hell out of you. I get 6 months for stealing your money and spending it. I get to serve concurrently. I essentially get nothing for stealing your money. Hell if I just felt like beating the hell out of you and letting you keep your cash it's all the same with the justice system.

I agree with you in spirit, but if I recall correctly, there is a distinction. If you beat the hell out of someone AND steal from them, then get cheaged for both - even though you serve concurrently, both offenses are registered. So if you steal another wallet, it counts as a second offense.

[Rastak]

True enough, so it's only a freebie if I don't do it again.

Still strikes me as the dumbest damn thing.

[pbmax]

I'll take this one PB. Since I've been old enough to understand the concept, I've yet to figure out why the idea of concurrent terms even exists. I beat you senseless and take your wallet. I get sentenced for 2 years for beating the hell out of you. I get 6 months for stealing your money and spending it. I get to serve concurrently. I essentially get nothing for stealing your money. Hell if I just felt like beating the hell out of you and letting you keep your cash it's all the same with the justice system.
I understand your concern. But it still doesn't (nor do I think should) apply to a private enterprise. And unlike your example, Vick hasn't committed additional crimes.

I think concurrent sentences exist for the same reason most laws carry a range of recommended incarceration for violations. To be sure the punishment fits the crime according to the jury and judge. Not all crimes charged under similar statutes are identical. Its a tool to shape the penalty.

I think one iron-clad way Goodell can justify this six games (or more) is that Vick lied to both the league and the team. That must carry some weight. But I doubt its the sole reason.

[pbmax]

I'll take this one PB. Since I've been old enough to understand the concept, I've yet to figure out why the idea of concurrent terms even exists. I beat you senseless and take your wallet. I get sentenced for 2 years for beating the hell out of you. I get 6 months for stealing your money and spending it. I get to serve concurrently. I essentially get nothing for stealing your money. Hell if I just felt like beating the hell out of you and letting you keep your cash it's all the same with the justice system.

I agree with you in spirit, but if I recall correctly, there is a distinction. If you beat the hell out of someone AND steal from them, then get cheaged for both - even though you serve concurrently, both offenses are registered. So if you steal another wallet, it counts as a second offense.
The incarceration and record of the charge are also only two parts of the penalty. Fines can be assessed for both incidents. And probation, house arrest or parole options can be affected by the second charge. I strongly doubt conviction on a second charge carries as little weight as the example suggests.

[Rastak]

Not bad points PB. I'm not sure I agree but it caused me to pause and consider.

[Patler]

So if a player tears up his knee in TC, goes on IR and then commits some punishable offense while on IR. Should his suspension be served while he can't play anyway? It would take his money away from him, which he would get on IR.

Or, more on point, he is on active duty (doesn't happen now, I know, except for Academy grads) but commits a suspendable offense. Should his time an active duty be applied to his suspension?

To my way of thinking, his NFL suspension should be applied during a period in which he was eligible and available to play. Vick was not available to play while incarcerated, so any suspension warranted should apply after he comes back.

BTW - suspensions are usually for a given number of games, and players whose suspension span their Bye week actually serve an extra week to get in the requisite number of games. Vick just had a super long bye! :)

[pbmax]

So if a player tears up his knee in TC, goes on IR and then commits some punishable offense while on IR. Should his suspension be served while he can't play anyway? It would take his money away from him, which he would get on IR.

Exactly what do you see as the point of a suspension? Aside from the public remonstration, how does it affect the player? Do most die a little on the inside not being part of the team? Perhaps, but to find that group, you might need a battery of psychological examinations. I think the far more common reaction is to miss the money, which the Commish can get at no matter when the suspension is applied. The other factor is the effect of not having the player on the team. A postponed suspension would increase that negative effect on the team. Which entity should be punished more?

Suspending the player while on IR (not limiting it to IR time but including it) might be more effective than postponement. It won't just cost him salary (or recoverable bonuses) but it would also remove him from the team's training complex. Meaning he might have to foot the bill personally to rehab. My answer would be that if you do this while on IR, it will cost you double the cash and loss of access to NFL facilities.

And if any of these hypothetical crimes involve even the suspicion of drug abuse, the player, regardless of status, could be moved up a Stage in the Drug Policy. And that could cost you additional games (as you mentioned byes don't count in the Drug Policy) and additional scrutiny of your output.


Or, more on point, he is on active duty (doesn't happen now, I know, except for Academy grads) but commits a suspendable offense. Should his time an active duty be applied to his suspension
Given the circumstances, I am not sure this would even make the news. Wahle was dropped from his team for a positive drug test. He was drafted in the supplemental draft and missed no time. If the player is under contract, the options above would be available. If he was simply on the reserve list, no action would be taken. There would be no money to recover.

[Patler]

So if a player tears up his knee in TC, goes on IR and then commits some punishable offense while on IR. Should his suspension be served while he can't play anyway? It would take his money away from him, which he would get on IR.

Exactly what do you see as the point of a suspension? Aside from the public remonstration, how does it affect the player? Do most die a little on the inside not being part of the team? Perhaps, but to find that group, you might need a battery of psychological examinations. I think the far more common reaction is to miss the money, which the Commish can get at no matter when the suspension is applied. The other factor is the effect of not having the player on the team. A postponed suspension would increase that negative effect on the team. Which entity should be punished more?

Suspending the player while on IR (not limiting it to IR time but including it) might be more effective than postponement. It won't just cost him salary (or recoverable bonuses) but it would also remove him from the team's training complex. Meaning he might have to foot the bill personally to rehab. My answer would be that if you do this while on IR, it will cost you double the cash and loss of access to NFL facilities.

And if any of these hypothetical crimes involve even the suspicion of drug abuse, the player, regardless of status, could be moved up a Stage in the Drug Policy. And that could cost you additional games (as you mentioned byes don't count in the Drug Policy) and additional scrutiny of your output.


Or, more on point, he is on active duty (doesn't happen now, I know, except for Academy grads) but commits a suspendable offense. Should his time an active duty be applied to his suspension
Given the circumstances, I am not sure this would even make the news. Wahle was dropped from his team for a positive drug test. He was drafted in the supplemental draft and missed no time. If the player is under contract, the options above would be available. If he was simply on the reserve list, no action would be taken. There would be no money to recover.

Well, if its just the money as you seem to suggest, why not do as they did with Barnett and just fine them all the appropriate pay for the number of games, but just let them play?

[MichiganPackerFan]

One thing that really bothers me about suspensions in the NFL is that it seems if a player loses a game for a dirty hit, the usually end up missing the game against your rival. Therefore the hit hurts your team and the suspension can hurt your standings. I think it would be more fair if the team who absorbed the cheap shot chose when the player sat out.

[MOBB DEEP]

cant believe goddell is piling on the Vickster; its like "kicking a dead horse in the ground"

whose idea was it to give this cat SO much power anyway??

i agree with TO (cant blieve i said that) that the players union should step in and that other players around NFL should speak out!

FREE VICK DA GREAT

[Gunakor]

cant believe goddell is piling on the Vickster; its like "kicking a dead horse in the ground"

whose idea was it to give this cat SO much power anyway??

i agree with TO (cant blieve i said that) that the players union should step in and that other players around NFL should speak out!

FREE VICK DA GREAT

Why shouldn't Vick be suspended for a clear violation of the NFL's personal conduct policy? Why should the NFLPA speak out about it? 4 games for a felony conviction seems pretty light as a matter of fact. Others have gotten 4 games for FAR less serious violations than Vick.

No league discipline had even been determined much less handed down during his incarceration, it's only been determined following his release. They can't just sentence him to "time served" because he hasn't served any time for the NFL yet. If he were allowed to play in week 1 it would be akin to receiving no punishment whatsoever from the NFL. The NFL is not the US Justice system.

[pbmax]

Well, if its just the money as you seem to suggest, why not do as they did with Barnett and just fine them all the appropriate pay for the number of games, but just let them play?
Appearances. Even if fines are more effective, suspensions make better sound bites and news reports. No one believes that fines actually impact the player because they make so much money. And there is no website to do the math and proclaim the percentage of income involved.

And tradition. Back in the day, before astronomical salaries and bonuses, game checks were sufficient deterrents.

My guess is that Goodell, when or if this crops up, will mitigate the suspension based on the length of unavailability, then tack on games at the end. The time on IR won't count one for one, but some credit would be applied.

[Scott Campbell]

Who is going to sign this guy? It looks to me like it may take an injury for him to find his way onto a NFL roster this year.

[Gunakor]

Who is going to sign this guy? It looks to me like it may take an injury for him to find his way onto a NFL roster this year.

Imagine Vick in Miami lining up in the shotgun with Ronnie Brown on his right side and Ricky Williams on his left.

[pbmax]

No league discipline had even been determined much less handed down during his incarceration, it's only been determined following his release. They can't just sentence him to "time served" because he hasn't served any time for the NFL yet. If he were allowed to play in week 1 it would be akin to receiving no punishment whatsoever from the NFL. The NFL is not the US Justice system.
According to the explanations after the press release, Vick could be suspended anywhere from 0-5 games.

There is no reason for his time in jail not to count as part of his punishment from the league. They don't need to count it, but to exclude it as a rule is arbitrary. I think the punishment from the league should conform to the damage done to the league and team, and not be tied directly to the criminal justice system.

But the major issue here has so far been avoided. As every self-important crank that has called up Talk Radio in the last two years has pointed out, many people would be unable to return to their original place of work. The reason Vick can is not a matter of justice, but a matter of supply and demand. There are less than 40 people in the world that can do what Vick does. By comparison, there are large numbers or teachers, nurses, doctors and lawyers available.

If you were that valuable to your employer, they would find a way to bring you back.

[Gunakor]

No league discipline had even been determined much less handed down during his incarceration, it's only been determined following his release. They can't just sentence him to "time served" because he hasn't served any time for the NFL yet. If he were allowed to play in week 1 it would be akin to receiving no punishment whatsoever from the NFL. The NFL is not the US Justice system.
According to the explanations after the press release, Vick could be suspended anywhere from 0-5 games.

There is no reason for his time in jail not to count as part of his punishment from the league. They don't need to count it, but to exclude it as a rule is arbitrary. I think the punishment from the league should conform to the damage done to the league and team, and not be tied directly to the criminal justice system.

But the major issue here has so far been avoided. As every self-important crank that has called up Talk Radio in the last two years has pointed out, many people would be unable to return to their original place of work. The reason Vick can is not a matter of justice, but a matter of supply and demand. There are less than 40 people in the world that can do what Vick does. By comparison, there are large numbers or teachers, nurses, doctors and lawyers available.

If you were that valuable to your employer, they would find a way to bring you back.

4 games is awfully light for what he did, but if that's what the NFL decides is fair then that's what it should be. I don't agree, but it's not my league.

I just can't believe the people who think the NFL should turn a blind eye toward the deal and simply invite Vick back to play in week 1, as if nothing ever happened and Vick was just on a 2 year sabbatical. Vick broke the law, he went to prison. Vick violated league policy, and he should be suspended for it. 2 separate violations, 2 separate punishments. If Vick serves both punishments and fulfills his obligations both to the NFL and the United States, he absolutely should be afforded a second chance. I don't think the obligations were stiff enough, but again, it's not my league. It is what it is.

[Patler]

To me it is very simple. If an NFL suspension is justified, it should be applied when the player is otherwise available to play. Otherwise, the NFL has applied no suspension at all because the player will have played in all games in which he was available to play.

That's like a parent telling their kid he is grounded for a week, but since he was sick last week and didn't go anywhere, last week will count as the punishment. I'm not sure the kid would feel that his parents punished him at all.

[MOBB DEEP]

cant believe goddell is piling on the Vickster; its like "kicking a dead horse in the ground"

whose idea was it to give this cat SO much power anyway??

i agree with TO (cant blieve i said that) that the players union should step in and that other players around NFL should speak out!

FREE VICK DA GREAT

Why shouldn't Vick be suspended for a clear violation of the NFL's personal conduct policy? Why should the NFLPA speak out about it? 4 games for a felony conviction seems pretty light as a matter of fact. Others have gotten 4 games for FAR less serious violations than Vick.

No league discipline had even been determined much less handed down during his incarceration, it's only been determined following his release. They can't just sentence him to "time served" because he hasn't served any time for the NFL yet. If he were allowed to play in week 1 it would be akin to receiving no punishment whatsoever from the NFL. The NFL is not the US Justice system.

let me guess Gun, ure not a Vick fan??!!

there's the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. no sane person would feel that vick got off EASY if he were allowed to play now

i think each case should be treated differently; others didnt spend 2 years in fed prison and/or suffer the same imaqe and financial backlash either

and wasnt he suspended indefintely BEFORE going to jail?

[MOBB DEEP]

There is no reason for his time in jail not to count as part of his punishment from the league. They don't need to count it, but to exclude it as a rule is arbitrary. I think the punishment from the league should conform to the damage done to the league and team, and not be tied directly to the criminal justice system.

But the major issue here has so far been avoided. As every self-important crank that has called up Talk Radio in the last two years has pointed out, many people would be unable to return to their original place of work. The reason Vick can is not a matter of justice, but a matter of supply and demand. There are less than 40 people in the world that can do what Vick does. By comparison, there are large numbers or teachers, nurses, doctors and lawyers available.

If you were that valuable to your employer, they would find a way to bring you back.

good post PB

[Gunakor]

cant believe goddell is piling on the Vickster; its like "kicking a dead horse in the ground"

whose idea was it to give this cat SO much power anyway??

i agree with TO (cant blieve i said that) that the players union should step in and that other players around NFL should speak out!

FREE VICK DA GREAT

Why shouldn't Vick be suspended for a clear violation of the NFL's personal conduct policy? Why should the NFLPA speak out about it? 4 games for a felony conviction seems pretty light as a matter of fact. Others have gotten 4 games for FAR less serious violations than Vick.

No league discipline had even been determined much less handed down during his incarceration, it's only been determined following his release. They can't just sentence him to "time served" because he hasn't served any time for the NFL yet. If he were allowed to play in week 1 it would be akin to receiving no punishment whatsoever from the NFL. The NFL is not the US Justice system.

let me guess Gun, ure not a Vick fan??!!

there's the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. no sane person would feel that vick got off EASY if he were allowed to play now

i think each case should be treated differently; others didnt spend 2 years in fed prison and/or suffer the same imaqe and financial backlash either

and wasnt he suspended indefintely BEFORE going to jail?

Let me guess, you ARE a Vick fan?

You're right, he wouldn't have gotten off easy. But he wouldn't have gotten off easy had he not been an NFL quarterback, either.

Others didn't spend 2 years in a federal prison, which meant they were free to start their league discipline right away. Why do you feel so strongly that Vick's prison sentence should satisfy the NFL's position on the mater? He was in jail, how was he supposed to serve his punishment handed down by the NFL (which, again, hadn't even been determined yet)?

Yes he was suspended indefinitely before going to jail. But he was IN jail before the next season started, so he hasn't served a day of that indefinite suspension from league perspective. Unless you have convinced yourself that he was serving his prison sentence and his NFL suspension at the same time. I don't think that's fair at all, and I can't agree that should be allowed for anyone no matter what their name or occupation is.

[Scott Campbell]

The reason Vick can is not a matter of justice, but a matter of supply and demand. There are less than 40 people in the world that can do what Vick does. By comparison, there are large numbers or teachers, nurses, doctors and lawyers available.

If you were that valuable to your employer, they would find a way to bring you back.


Brian Griese wouldn't bring 5000 angry PETA protesters with him. And I'm not sure that Vick is better than Brian Griese.

[Patler]

Vick was suspended by the NFL only after he entered his guilty plea, and admitting that he funded the gambling part of the operation. That alone could have earned a lifetime ban for him. Don't forget, while awaiting sentencing, he also failed a drug test, testing positive for marijuana. Throw this on top of circumstantial situations of Vick's truck being used by men arrested for distributing marijuana, and a couple other situations alleged but not proven, I think the NFL is justified in a cautious approach to reinstatement.

[Pugger]

Who is going to sign this guy? It looks to me like it may take an injury for him to find his way onto a NFL roster this year.

My hubby jokingly said Vick should sign with Cleveland! :rs:

Dog fighting is repugnant but often there is more going on during these events than just the maiming and killing of dogs and that is why is it illegal along with cock fighting. Gambling and drug running is found when the police raid these operations. And you have to wonder about people who find these barbaric fights "entertaining" in the first place.

The NFLPA may not be saying much because Goodell might be doing what is in the collective bargaining agreement about suspensions of players breaking personal conduct codes and/or going to jail.

[MOBB DEEP]

whose idea was it to give this cat SO much power anyway??



the more i think about it, there needs to be a system of checks and balances.....goddell has far too much power and i blieve (like the two live stews state) the players cant think its fair

even judges in the court system hear arguments from both sides before making a ruling

i suggest there be a panel that goddell consults before handing out punishment...and i feel that the panel should be made of AT LEAST half black folk like dungy and art shell

[MOBB DEEP]

[quote="Gunakor"] He spent a year and a half in a federal prison, something most of us who want him banned for life have not experienced.

wow, Gun u want him banned for life?! i guessed right...

[SkinBasket]

whose idea was it to give this cat SO much power anyway??



the more i think about it, there needs to be a system of checks and balances.....goddell has far too much power and i blieve (like the two live stews state) the players cant think its fair

even judges in the court system hear arguments from both sides before making a ruling

i suggest there be a panel that goddell consults before handing out punishment...and i feel that the panel should be made of AT LEAST half black folk like dungy and art shell

I suggest the players live up to the code of conduct, their contractual obligations, and maybe even consider being decent human beings.

Where hasn't Goodell "heard both sides of the argument?" In fact, he's heard more than both sides, he's also heard the side that doesn't exist when Vick lied to his face.

[Scott Campbell]

...and i feel that the panel should be made of AT LEAST half black folk like dungy and art shell


I think they should all be Asian. Let's play this thing out on a neutral court.

[pbmax]

Vick was suspended by the NFL only after he entered his guilty plea, and admitting that he funded the gambling part of the operation. That alone could have earned a lifetime ban for him. Don't forget, while awaiting sentencing, he also failed a drug test, testing positive for marijuana. Throw this on top of circumstantial situations of Vick's truck being used by men arrested for distributing marijuana, and a couple other situations alleged but not proven, I think the NFL is justified in a cautious approach to reinstatement.
Football has a different tradition in dealing with gambling allegations than baseball. Karras and Hornung as prime examples. I do think that might be the second most damning thing here.

I forgot about the positive drug test. Assuming he was not in the program before, he is in stage 1 now. That should definitely be a part of the NFL's calculus about his suspension. And keep in mind, we are assuming Vick meets the requirements the Commish laid down. But there is no guarantee that Goodell approves him after Week 5.

[pbmax]

...and i feel that the panel should be made of AT LEAST half black folk like dungy and art shell


I think they should all be Asian. Let's play this thing out on a neutral court.
You are stepping into another stereotype problem there, Scott. Unless that was intentional, then take a dollar from petty cash.

[Patler]

whose idea was it to give this cat SO much power anyway??



the more i think about it, there needs to be a system of checks and balances.....goddell has far too much power and i blieve (like the two live stews state) the players cant think its fair

even judges in the court system hear arguments from both sides before making a ruling

i suggest there be a panel that goddell consults before handing out punishment...and i feel that the panel should be made of AT LEAST half black folk like dungy and art shell


Gee, Mobb, wasn't this enough for you?

"Roger listened to ownership, NFL employees, friends, relatives, players, counselors, people from animal rights groups. In his typical fashion, he sought input and listened to all before acting."

Obviously, just an arbitrary decision from Goodell.

[MadScientist]

...and i feel that the panel should be made of AT LEAST half black folk like dungy and art shell


I think they should all be Asian. Let's play this thing out on a neutral court.
So he would be suspended for playing with his food? :twisted:

[ThunderDan]

whose idea was it to give this cat SO much power anyway??



the more i think about it, there needs to be a system of checks and balances.....goddell has far too much power and i blieve (like the two live stews state) the players cant think its fair

even judges in the court system hear arguments from both sides before making a ruling

i suggest there be a panel that goddell consults before handing out punishment...and i feel that the panel should be made of AT LEAST half black folk like dungy and art shell

If I was a player I would have lobbied Goddell to suspend him for a year. Vick brings bad publicity to the game and hurts the owners and players chance of making money.

My prediction is that whoever signs Vick will feel a lot of pressure. People will call the local FOX/NBC/cable TV advertisors and say if they air commercials during the game that they will boycot their business.

What business wants to be associated with a dog abuser/killer?

[Scott Campbell]

...and i feel that the panel should be made of AT LEAST half black folk like dungy and art shell


I think they should all be Asian. Let's play this thing out on a neutral court.
You are stepping into another stereotype problem there, Scott. Unless that was intentional, then take a dollar from petty cash.



I was trying intentionally to be more ridiculous than MOBB.

[MOBB DEEP]

over half of the people responding to an espn poll voted that they feel Vicks suspension is too harsh

[MOBB DEEP]

...and i feel that the panel should be made of AT LEAST half black folk like dungy and art shell


I think they should all be Asian. Let's play this thing out on a neutral court.

rofl

[Scott Campbell]

over half of the people responding to an espn poll voted that they feel Vicks suspension is too harsh



I will not tell an inappropriate joke.
I will not tell an inappropriate joke.
I will not tell an inappropriate joke.

[ThunderDan]

over half of the people responding to an espn poll voted that they feel Vicks suspension is too harsh

Technically speaking, he could be reinstated before the season starts.

[MOBB DEEP]

whose idea was it to give this cat SO much power anyway??



the more i think about it, there needs to be a system of checks and balances.....goddell has far too much power and i blieve (like the two live stews state) the players cant think its fair

even judges in the court system hear arguments from both sides before making a ruling

i suggest there be a panel that goddell consults before handing out punishment...and i feel that the panel should be made of AT LEAST half black folk like dungy and art shell


Gee, Mobb, wasn't this enough for you?

"Roger listened to ownership, NFL employees, friends, relatives, players, counselors, people from animal rights groups. In his typical fashion, he sought input and listened to all before acting."

Obviously, just an arbitrary decision from Goodell.

im not talking about the vick case in a vacuum; i just think his approach in general has been dictatorial

im not alone in this line of thinking and ive heard several talking heads concur

[MOBB DEEP]

I was trying intentionally to be more ridiculous than MOBB.

u think it would be ridiculous to have a panel or a panel including black professionals?

[MOBB DEEP]

over half of the people responding to an espn poll voted that they feel Vicks suspension is too harsh



I will not tell an inappropriate joke.
I will not tell an inappropriate joke.
I will not tell an inappropriate joke.

u gota tell it SC

[Scott Campbell]

over half of the people responding to an espn poll voted that they feel Vicks suspension is too harsh


That should even itself out once the white folk get home from work.





Yeah, I know. I'll burn in hell.

[MOBB DEEP]

over half of the people responding to an espn poll voted that they feel Vicks suspension is too harsh


That should even itself out once the white folk get home from work.





Yeah, I know. I'll burn in hell.


lol.....but black folk are working, just selling drugs and fighting dogs tho so no punchn the clock required

[Freak Out]

over half of the people responding to an espn poll voted that they feel Vicks suspension is too harsh


That should even itself out once the white folk get home from work.





Yeah, I know. I'll burn in hell.


lol.....but black folk are working, just selling drugs and fighting dogs tho so no punchn the clock required

Bwahh...

So has anyone signed him yet?

[pbmax]

The reason Vick can is not a matter of justice, but a matter of supply and demand. There are less than 40 people in the world that can do what Vick does. By comparison, there are large numbers or teachers, nurses, doctors and lawyers available.

If you were that valuable to your employer, they would find a way to bring you back.


Brian Griese wouldn't bring 5000 angry PETA protesters with him. And I'm not sure that Vick is better than Brian Griese.
Well, time will tell. But my dollar is on Vick signing before Griese. For more money too.

[Patler]

im not talking about the vick case in a vacuum; i just think his approach in general has been dictatorial

im not alone in this line of thinking and ive heard several talking heads concur

I disagree. I think he has been quite methodical in his decision process and has talked to the people involved. Barnett was even able to convince him to modify the original punishment from a game suspension to a fine equal to a game's pay. That isn't very dictatorial in my opinion.

[SkinBasket]

I was trying intentionally to be more ridiculous than MOBB.

u think it would be ridiculous to have a panel or a panel including black professionals?

No more ridiculous than suggesting the NFLPA should have a similar panel including white people that would lobby for the owners in every decision they make.

[Patler]

I was trying intentionally to be more ridiculous than MOBB.

u think it would be ridiculous to have a panel or a panel including black professionals?

Why, because a black professional coming from his/her background and experiences is more likely give a well informed opinion than a white professional? :wink:

[ThunderDan]

I was trying intentionally to be more ridiculous than MOBB.

u think it would be ridiculous to have a panel or a panel including black professionals?

Why, because a black professional coming from his/her background and experiences is more likely give a well informed opinion than a white professional? :wink:

Who is that Tony Dungy character? Isn't he black?