Nelson or Jones

[HarveyWallbangers]

I suspect Nelson will go more votes, but I know there are some who like Jones. I see Nelson's upside of being a good #2 WR with Jones upside being a serviceable #2 or good #3 receiver.

[Joemailman]

I went with Jones. More of a hunch than anything else. I love his ability to get YAC, and his ability to look the ball in when closely covered. It's a nice problem to have though. I'm glad Jay Cutler doesn't have our receivers.

[Harlan Huckleby]

This is an easy one. Even I know enough to vote for the promising white boy.

[Bretsky]

pretty close and a good poll

I think both are probably guys who shoud be 3's

Maybe Nelson develops into a 2

[Harlan Huckleby]

I wonder if Driver worries about Nelson on his heels.

Driver has got a lot of mileage on that body. I think Nelson is going to be outstanding.

[Pacopete4]

I wonder if Driver worries about Nelson on his heels.

Driver has got a lot of mileage on that body. I think Nelson is going to be outstanding.


heels? haha if we are going by what we saw last season even, hes so far from his heels he cant even smell his feet... Driver was, and will still be an above average WR who gets the job done when the game is on the line..

[Ryche]

I feel Jones will be the 3rd untill someone gets hurt then we will see Jordy also.. What ever the case there will be alot of receiving yards this year.. Unless Grant kicks ass but thats good too.

[Lurker64]

Jordy's going to get the #3 spot simply because he's the best blocker among all of our WRs by a wide margin. McCarthy loves that, since you can spread out the defense, put Nelson in motion, and have him block for the RB.

[pbmax]

I say Jones because if healthy, he has had the more productive season. What is hard to judge is the leap that Nelson might make in year 2.

[gex]

Gotta go with the white boy....Jeff Queary anyone? 8-)

[Harlan Huckleby]

I wouldn't rule out Nelson winning the #2 job.

[Freak Out]

They both could develop into very good receivers and battle for that spot.

[bobblehead]

outside the fumbles in that bears game and then getting hurt until week 14 last year I think Jones has been a beast. This is really gonna be interesting if Jordy improves and earns some playing time. sorta like am/pm stores....too much good stuff.

[RashanGary]

I voted Nelson because he's so complete (like Lurker said). Jones is a hell of a receiver though. He's more than a career #3. Jones is a big play dude. Hard to stop. His rookie season was damn impressive.

[Harlan Huckleby]

..

[Harlan Huckleby]

As always, injuries will undoubtably solve this terrible dilemma. Even if they have 5 starter-quality guys they would like on the field, only 3 are full strength on any given week.

[]{ilr]3]

Jordy's going to get the #3 spot simply because he's the best blocker among all of our WRs by a wide margin. McCarthy loves that, since you can spread out the defense, put Nelson in motion, and have him block for the RB.

I like them both, a lot!

Jones has the size and Jordy has great hands. If I am not mistaken, he only had one drop all last year.

[Partial]

Jordy's going to get the #3 spot simply because he's the best blocker among all of our WRs by a wide margin. McCarthy loves that, since you can spread out the defense, put Nelson in motion, and have him block for the RB.

Source? I've never heard this before. It was my understanding that Martin was the best blocker followed by Driver.

[Partial]

Jordy's going to get the #3 spot simply because he's the best blocker among all of our WRs by a wide margin. McCarthy loves that, since you can spread out the defense, put Nelson in motion, and have him block for the RB.

Source? I've never heard this before. It was my understanding that Martin was the best blocker followed by Driver.

[Zool]

Jordy is a deceptively fast guy especially for his size. I hope he puts it all together and makes a push for the #2 spot this season.

[HarveyWallbangers]

{ilr]3]I like them both, a lot!

Jones has the size and Jordy has great hands. If I am not mistaken, he only had one drop all last year.

The thing about Jordy is that he's bigger, faster, and has better hands than Jones. Jones has strength, but he hasn't shown that he can use that strength to muscle corners for the ball AND make yards after contact. Jordy shows the ability in both aspects. Jones hasn't shown the ability to make yards after contact that his strength would lead you to believe. There are two things that I think Jones has to dramatically improve on. The first is focus. For a guy with such good hands, he drops too many balls. He lacks focus at times. The second is yards after contact. He goes down too easily too often. With his strength, he should be better at that.

[vince]

Jones hasn't shown the ability to make yards after contact that his strength would lead you to believe.
That was fairly manly. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCnJpjj5jHk)

Although I'd take Jordy because of his speed, hands, blocking and consistency.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Jones hasn't shown the ability to make yards after contact that his strength would lead you to believe.
That was fairly manly. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCnJpjj5jHk)

Although I'd take Jordy because of his speed, hands, blocking and consistency.

One time doesn't mean he does it a lot. In fact, that play shows the kind of strength he has. He should be better after contact.

[sheepshead]

I hope this becomes a very very tough decision!

[vince]

Jones hasn't shown the ability to make yards after contact that his strength would lead you to believe.
That was fairly manly. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCnJpjj5jHk)

Although I'd take Jordy because of his speed, hands, blocking and consistency.

One time doesn't mean he does it a lot. In fact, that play shows the kind of strength he has. He should be better after contact.
Agreed. He has shown the ability though... just sayin' :wink:

[HarveyWallbangers]

Agreed. He has shown the ability though... just sayin' :wink:

Maybe I didn't say that in a way that could be easily understood. Just looking at him, you see that he has the ability to do it. However, through two years in the league he's seldom actually done it in games. I can remember a couple of plays, but I remember a lot more plays where he seemed to go down too easily. Maybe it's a speed thing with him. Although he has a little "shakeability," it seems it's too easy to tackle him below the waist in the open field. Notice in that video that he was hit high--because the defenders were going for the knockout blow.

[rbaloha1]

Close call. Nelson is more consistent and instinctive. Jones has too many lapses in concentration.

Nelson is the choice by a hair.

[Gunakor]

Jordy dropped 1 pass thrown in his direction all season last year. One. He's got hands of glue. I'm hopeful that he'll not only be the #3 this year, but the eventual #2 behind Jennings going forward. I like Jones, and I hope he remains a Packer beyond his rookie contract, but I don't think he'd beat out Nelson in a fair competition. JMO of course.

[RashanGary]

The thing about Jordy is that he's bigger, faster, and has better hands than Jones. Jones has strength, but he hasn't shown that he can use that strength to muscle corners for the ball AND make yards after contact. Jordy shows the ability in both aspects. Jones hasn't shown the ability to make yards after contact that his strength would lead you to believe. There are two things that I think Jones has to dramatically improve on. The first is focus. For a guy with such good hands, he drops too many balls. He lacks focus at times. The second is yards after contact. He goes down too easily too often. With his strength, he should be better at that.

We definitely have different impressions of James Jones. I agree Jordy is better, but I don't agree that Jones has all of the problems you listed.

[HarveyWallbangers]

We definitely have different impressions of James Jones. I agree Jordy is better, but I don't agree that Jones has all of the problems you listed.

I like Jones as a third WR and maybe a serviceable 2nd WR eventually. He has his strengths and weaknesses--just like most 3rd WRs. You seem to think he's on the path to greatness. He has strong hands, but drops too many because he lacks focus at times. He runs pretty good routes. He has good shakeability. He generally isn't that good after contact.

[Partial]

Don't see what you guys see with Nelson. I think he was very underwhelming, and far less impressive as a rookie than Jones was.

[Gunakor]

Don't see what you guys see with Nelson. I think he was very underwhelming, and far less impressive as a rookie than Jones was.

He's consistent. He's not as tough a SOB as Jones is, but you can throw the ball to him and expect he'll catch it nearly every time. One dropped ball in 16 games played as a rookie is extremely impressive IMO.

[RashanGary]

We definitely have different impressions of James Jones. I agree Jordy is better, but I don't agree that Jones has all of the problems you listed.

I like Jones as a third WR and maybe a serviceable 2nd WR eventually. He has his strengths and weaknesses--just like most 3rd WRs. You seem to think he's on the path to greatness. He has strong hands, but drops too many because he lacks focus at times. He runs pretty good routes. He has good shakeability. He generally isn't that good after contact.


I see him as a guy who could put up a few 70 catch, 900 yard seasons. I don't think he's Greg Jennings. I like Nelson better because he's so reliable and well rounded. I think Nelson is the perfect compliment to Jennngs as a starter. Jones is going to make a lot of plays though. As soon as Driver steps aside, you'll see big numbers from Jones.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Don't see what you guys see with Nelson. I think he was very underwhelming, and far less impressive as a rookie than Jones was.

He's consistent. He's not as tough a SOB as Jones is, but you can throw the ball to him and expect he'll catch it nearly every time. One dropped ball in 16 games played as a rookie is extremely impressive IMO.

Great hands. Great size. He made a few people miss--although he's no Greg Jennings. Jordy Nelson = future Kevin Walter, and that wouldn't be bad.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Nelson looked polished as a rookie. None of the recievers on the Packers roster showed as much talent in their rookie season. Nelson is smooth, elusive and plenty fast enough. A natural.

I think Nelson will be one of the key playmakers, head and shoulders ahead of Jones.

[Bossman641]

We definitely have different impressions of James Jones. I agree Jordy is better, but I don't agree that Jones has all of the problems you listed.

I like Jones as a third WR and maybe a serviceable 2nd WR eventually. He has his strengths and weaknesses--just like most 3rd WRs. You seem to think he's on the path to greatness. He has strong hands, but drops too many because he lacks focus at times. He runs pretty good routes. He has good shakeability. He generally isn't that good after contact.

I can't figure out what the deal with Jones is, if the dropped passes are a result of lack of focus or if his hands aren't that great. He seems to pluck the ball from the air really well on occassion, so I don't think it's hands, but then again even on some of the balls he did catch he sorta double-caught them a little bit.

[RashanGary]

HH and Harvey. On a scale of 1-10, what kind of a player do you think James Jones is and what kind of player do you think Jordy Nelson is? You make the contrast sound very sharp and I'm not so sure I agree. Also, what kind of seasons can we expect out of Nelson (production) and what out of Jones?

[HarveyWallbangers]

HH and Harvey. On a scale of 1-10, what kind of a player do you think James Jones is and what kind of player do you think Jordy Nelson is? You make the contrast sound very sharp and I'm not so sure I agree. Also, what kind of seasons can we expect out of Nelson (production) and what out of Jones?

Right now, I like Nelson slightly more. I don't think his upside is significantly higher than Jones, but I think the gap between them will increase slightly as we go forward. I think Nelson has better hands--although I think Jones has the potential to clean up the drops. Nelson has better deep speed. Jones has a bit more suddenness. I think Nelson has shown a bit more potential to use his size and speed to make yards after the catch. I'm not saying there's a huge difference between them, but that's how I see it.

[Harlan Huckleby]

you can't directly compare a rookie season with a 3rd year pro. The rookie year is just a flash of their potential that may or may not flourish. I think Nelson is going to be the pick of the litter, but that is speculation.

[RashanGary]

you can't directly compare a rookie season with a 3rd year pro. The rookie year is just a flash of their potential that may or may not flourish. I think Nelson is going to be the pick of the litter, but that is speculation.

I'm a big Nelson fan too. I think he's the perfect compliment to Jennings. That doesn't mean I don't think Jones can be a 1000 yard receiver. Jones has that type of potential. If you think Jones is a #3 that's not capable of 700-1000 yard seasons consistently then we greatly disagree on James Jones. If you think Jones can put up those types of numbers but still like Nelson better then we're in general agreement.

[Joemailman]

Jones had nearly 700 yards receiving in 2007, before running into the proverbial rookie wall. Yes, the same one that Jennings ran into in 2006. It remains to be seen if he can make the next step up as Jennings did, but what he did in 2007 was very impressive. There is little reason to think he can't top 2007 if given the chance, and provided he stays healthy.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Always bet on black!

[HarveyWallbangers]

I'm a big Nelson fan too. I think he's the perfect compliment to Jennings. That doesn't mean I don't think Jones can be a 1000 yard receiver. Jones has that type of potential. If you think Jones is a #3 that's not capable of 700-1000 yard seasons consistently then we greatly disagree on James Jones. If you think Jones can put up those types of numbers but still like Nelson better then we're in general agreement.

Jones is unlikely to put up 700-1000 yards as the #3--unless there are injuries. It isn't too tough to put up 700 yards as a #2 receiver. That wouldn't make him any more than average. Heck, as a #2 receiver, Ruvell could probably put 700 yards as a starter. Even as a #2, I don't see him putting up 1000 yards consistently. Maybe he does it as a fluke one year because there isn't much else around him (ala Bill Schroeder). Of course, a lot depends on the offense and who is throwing the ball. I think he's limited by his below average speed. I tried to think of a comparison, but I'm not sure there really is one. His game maybe resembles the older Muhsin Muhammad, but he doesn't quite have Muhsin's size.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Jones had nearly 700 yards receiving in 2007, before running into the proverbial rookie wall. Yes, the same one that Jennings ran into in 2006. It remains to be seen if he can make the next step up as Jennings did, but what he did in 2007 was very impressive. There is little reason to think he can't top 2007 if given the chance, and provided he stays healthy.

I think he can be a good #3 or serviceable #2, but I think he caught some people by surprise that year. He had 432 yards the first half of that year, but only had 244 yards the second half. I think teams caught up with him a bit.

[RashanGary]

33 receivers had over 800 yards last season. If James Jones can be 125 yards better than he was in his rookie season as a 22 year old kid out of San Jose State, then he'll be in the top 33. That's not borderline legit #3 receiver numbers unless you think borderline #1 WR numbers are what you should expect out of your #3/#4 WR.

I'd call Jones a legit starting talent.

[RashanGary]

Straight line speed is overrated. Jones can get up and go and plays fast on the field.

[RashanGary]

And I'm not Jones biggest fan or anything, but damn, what do you expect? The guy showed he was a starting caliber WR as a rookie. Sure he had some inconsistencies as a rookie and was injured last year, but any reasonable thinking person has to expect that those are things he can be expected to overcome. Liking Nelson is one thing, but calling Jones a #3 receiver and not much more is just not true IMO. He'll shatter that opinion.

[HarveyWallbangers]

33 receivers had over 800 yards last season. If James Jones can be 125 yards better than he was in his rookie season as a 22 year old kid out of San Jose State, then he'll be in the top 33. That's not borderline legit #3 receiver numbers unless you think borderline #1 WR numbers are what you should expect out of your #3/#4 WR.

I'd call Jones a legit starting talent.

I don't judge receivers purely on numbers. It's also apples to oranges. Hard to compare the numbers for receivers on the 2007 Packers compared to the 2008 Ravens, for example. A lot depends on QB, system, number of passing attempts. Jones got a lot of PT as a rookie (lots of multi-receiver, Jennings got nicked a couple of times).

Based purely on numbers, Bill Schroeder was a solid starting WR for a few years. Don't buy it. Like I said, Jones surprised some people his rookie year. You could look at the numbers like this: since the midway point of his rookie year, he has less than 500 yards receiving.

I'd like to point out again that I don't think he's a bad receiver. I just don't see the upside that you do. He certainly can get better on his focus and yards after catch. If he does that, I expect him to reach his potential as a decent #2 WR. I still think his speed limits his upside.

[RashanGary]

Anquan Boldin was a 4.7 guy coming out of college. Jones is a 4.6 guy. Why is speed a limiting factor for our guy but not for Boldin?

[HarveyWallbangers]

Straight line speed is overrated. Jones can get up and go and plays fast on the field.

It can be, but there aren't that many guys who have below average speed and average height who turn into stars.

[Partial]

Always bet on black!

2nded.

[RashanGary]

We're just going to disagree all day on this. I think 4.6 speed is solid for a WR and if the WR is as supremely talented as Jones in every other area, it's a complete non-issue. Completely overblown.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Anquan Boldin was a 4.7 guy coming out of college. Jones is a 4.6 guy. Why is speed a limiting factor for our guy but not for Boldin?

How many guys like Boldin are out there? Boldin is much better after the catch than Jones. Not even in the same league.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

33 receivers had over 800 yards last season. If James Jones can be 125 yards better than he was in his rookie season as a 22 year old kid out of San Jose State, then he'll be in the top 33. That's not borderline legit #3 receiver numbers unless you think borderline #1 WR numbers are what you should expect out of your #3/#4 WR.

I'd call Jones a legit starting talent.

Even for you, this is some pretty poor logic.

For instance, there are different offenses and how much they throw...so, not all yards are the same. Some teams also use their WRs more than their TEs..or some use their rbs more than others.

Your 800 number essentially means nothing. You can't compare our offense directly to others...doing so devalues other teams like Pitt who dont' throw the ball like we do.

Or would you like to argue that Donnie Avery is 126 yards from being a #1 receiver, Bobby Wade is 150 or so, Dom Hixon is a mere 200 or so, etc. :wink:

Mr. Jones has yet to show or prove that he is a starting talent. He had one nice season...one that more fumbles than tds..and one that also includes fading down the stretch. And, he had one sub optimal season...20 receptions in 10 games.

Mr. Jones would appear to have the ability to start, but so did Derrick Mayes. He needs to cut down on the drops, tighten his routes, improve his blocking, and run more aggressively after the catch.

[RashanGary]

For a WR, height has to be the most overrated measurable there is.

James Jones 6'1"


Steve Smith 5'9"
Roddy White 6'0"
Greg Jennings 5'11"
Antonio Bryant 6'1"
Wes Welker 5'9"
Reggie Wayne 6'0"

6 of the top 10 receivers from last year are James Jones height or shorter. Welker runs a 4.6 and is shorter. Jennings runs high 4.45+. Roddy White 4.45+. Antonio Bryant 4.57. Wayne and Smith are burners.


Bryant is the same height and speed
Welker is shorter and slower

And that's just looking in last years top 10 WR's.



There is a give take with height. It's nice to find tall guys who can move. They are the rarest, but there are a lot more great WR's that are about Jones height than there are great WR's that are 6'5". The shorter you are, the lower your center of gravity and better your change of direction. Last I checked, football was a game of agility more than it is a track meet and I think the stats of the top WR's would echo that.

[pbmax]

Source? I've never heard this before. It was my understanding that Martin was the best blocker followed by Driver.
In the writeups I just perused (McGinn on JSO end of season tallies), Martin is listed as the best blocker followed by Nelson. If you recall, McCarthy spent some serious time devising formations to get Martin and Nelson in at WR at the same time and running with them blocking.

[RashanGary]

Ty and HW, I agree. The numbers do not tell the whole story, but Jones is an impressive dude. He's a good starter, I really believe that. It's our deepest position, so he's not starting for us, but he'd start for every one of our divisional opponents IMO.

And I agree. He needs to tighten his routes, clean up the mental errors and improve hsi ball security from his rookie year. All of those things, I see as probably to improve. I see that as him just being a rook.

And he tailed off because Favre loved Koren. It was stupid IMO. JOnes was better.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Anquan Boldin was a 4.7 guy coming out of college. Jones is a 4.6 guy. Why is speed a limiting factor for our guy but not for Boldin?

Are you seriously going to compare these 2? Look, it is a game called football, and Q is, was and most likely always will be a better football player than Jones, not to mention WR.

Q was Mr. Football in Florida.
Q played QB in high school, transitioned to WR in college
Q is on the Florida all century high school team
Q played WR and QB at FSU
Q played TWENTY THREE games at WR at FSU, ran a slow combine and still went in the 2nd.
FSU>SJS

Jones was a good high school athlete and played QB.
Jones was "good" enough to be recruited by noted power..San Jose State
Jones was "a guy" for 3 years at SJS
Jones had ONE good/great year as a senior
Jones was 2nd team WAC (what does that tell you)

He played in the WAC. Can you be a good player from the WAC, yes. Is it a hotbed of NFL talent, no. Bet you are still waiting for Lelie to be great, Paul Williams, Davone Bess, Caleb Spencer (2nd team like jones in 06), Legedu Naanee, etc.

The race isn't always to the swift and strong, but that is the way to bet!

[RashanGary]

The point was that "Q" was slow and no taller than Jones yet he is a great player. Then I showed all the other players that were in the same height/speed range. There are a lot of top receivers in that range.

Harvey's main point is Jones is limited by speed and height. I disagree with that and I don't think he's anquan Boldin. I don't think I ever made that point.

[HarveyWallbangers]

For a WR, height has to be the most overrated measurable there is.

Unless, you're not very fast. Traits I look for in a WR - hands, route running, size, speed, quickness, toughness, ability after the catch. How do you think JJ rates in each of these?

[HarveyWallbangers]

The point was that "Q" was slow and no taller than Jones yet he is a great player. Then I showed all the other players that were in the same height/speed range. There are a lot of top receivers in that range.

Harvey's main point is Jones is limited by speed and height. I disagree with that and I don't think he's anquan Boldin. I don't think I ever made that point.

Some guys run 4.6/4.7 but have football speed. Remember that Jerry Rice didn't run a good 40, but he was fast on the football field. Boldin also has that. Jones doesn't. Some guys run well with pads on. Some don't.

[RashanGary]

My main belief is that Jones is a starting caliber WR.

My evidence is that his rookie season was among the best ever in Packer history. I believe is play is impressive (strictly opinion). I believe his inconsistencies and ball control issues from his rookie season are very correctable.

That's what I believe. That's why I believe it. I've argued that his height and speed are in the ranges of other top WR's. I'm not calling him a top WR, just pointing out that nothing about his physical upside prevents him from being great. I just think he's good, but if you want to talk about ceiling based on measurables he could definitely be great too.

[RashanGary]

Jones doesn't.

I disagree. Time will tell. Hopefully I"m right, but if not, I'll be here to give you props :)

[HarveyWallbangers]

My main belief is that Jones is a starting caliber WR.

I never argued that he couldn't be a starter. I see a guy you'd always be looking to upgrade though.

[RashanGary]

My main belief is that Jones is a starting caliber WR.

I never argued that he couldn't be a starter. I see a guy you'd always be looking to upgrade though.

And I disagree with that. We definitely disagree. I think he's going to put up 1000 yard seasons in his career. I think he's very talented.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Ty and HW, I agree. The numbers do not tell the whole story, but Jones is an impressive dude. He's a good starter, I really believe that. It's our deepest position, so he's not starting for us, but he'd start for every one of our divisional opponents IMO.

And I agree. He needs to tighten his routes, clean up the mental errors and improve hsi ball security from his rookie year. All of those things, I see as probably to improve. I see that as him just being a rook.

And he tailed off because Favre loved Koren. It was stupid IMO. JOnes was better.

If the numbers dont' tell the story, then what are you basing it off. All i can say is he looks good in a jersey..he has some guns.

Starter on every other team in the division. Justin..you are going down the partial track with this..i want you to really think about the position you are taking. I like you, that is why i'm giving you the heads up. Don't make Jones your Money Morency!

Detroit: Calvin Johnson and Shaun McDonald and they just drafted Williams of PSU..who looked in college way better than jones in a much tougher conf. No way does he for sure start on the lions.

Vikes: Berrian and Wade. They have Rice and now Harvin. Doubt he beats out 3 of those 4..since there ain't a chance he beats out berrian.

Bears: Hester, Rashied Davis, Brandon Lloyd, and Booker if he is still there. Just spent 3 and 4 this draft...can he beat out those guys? I can't even see him starting there.

BTW, Davis is another of the long line of illustrios SJS receivers. :lol:

How can he be a good starter when he doesn't start? :lol:

You can wish, hope, and dream all you want, but his pedigree doesn't suggest that he will be great. He hasn't been great at any level.

But, i'm sure you were convinced that Derrick Mayes was gonna be the shit.

[RashanGary]

Starter on every other team in the division. Justin..you are going down the partial track with this..i want you to really think about the position you are taking. I like you, that is why i'm giving you the heads up. Don't make Jones your Money Morency!


haha. I'm happy to put my eggs in his basket. I'm very excited about James Jones. I think he's talented. I think he's exciting. I'm in his corner all the way. There are a lot of footballs to share, but he's going to make some big plays this year. He's that kind of player. He's a big play guy.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

The point was that "Q" was slow and no taller than Jones yet he is a great player. Then I showed all the other players that were in the same height/speed range. There are a lot of top receivers in that range.

Harvey's main point is Jones is limited by speed and height. I disagree with that and I don't think he's anquan Boldin. I don't think I ever made that point.

Harv didn't say that. He also mentioned a ton of other things. You are focusing on the two that you choose.

By talking about successful players with the same measurebles you are creating a false argument. Jones has never been a succesful player, cept for one year.

You shouldn't be looking at guys like Q, etc, because they are the statistical outliers....go and look at the tons of mediocre players with Jones' measureables.

[RashanGary]

You shouldn't be looking at guys like Q, etc, because they are the statistical outliers....go and look at the tons of mediocre players with Jones' measureables.

That's why I went and looked at the top 10 last year. I'd say that's a pretty good group to use as comparsion (even though I don't consider him great, only really good).

[RashanGary]

There is evidence on both sides. I've made my case. It has some holes in it. It's not proven. Neither of you have a proven point either. Time will tell. I'm tied to James Jones now. I think he's really good and if he's an unspectacular nobody I'll take the verbal assault that I have coming.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Starter on every other team in the division. Justin..you are going down the partial track with this..i want you to really think about the position you are taking. I like you, that is why i'm giving you the heads up. Don't make Jones your Money Morency!


haha. I'm happy to put my eggs in his basket. I'm very excited about James Jones. I think he's talented. I think he's exciting. I'm in his corner all the way. There are a lot of footballs to share, but he's going to make some big plays this year. He's that kind of player. He's a big play guy.

that is fine, but dont' start arguing to prove your point. You have nothing but your opinion. Say you think he is great or can be a good starter and then shut up and let him prove it.

Otherwise you are down the wrong road..a road that has you proclaiming, "jones has it." :roll:

BTW, having a great rookie season doesn't mean that much...one good season is one good season, regardless of the year.

And, talking about it now...foolish, the game has changed as well as the packers.

But, his pales in comparison to Mr. Hutson's. Also better Lofton, Sharpe, Dowler, Mcgee, Howton, Jennings.

[RashanGary]

Otherwise you are down the wrong road..a road that has you proclaiming, "jones has it." :roll:

Never set out to prove anything. I set out to disprove the "he doesn't have it" sentiment and expressed the opinion that I think he does. I think I did a fine job.

Now, as far as if he turns out to be the big play I guy I think he is, time will tell. I don't expect big time yardage totals this year (not enough footballs to go around) but I do expect big, memorable plays; several of them.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

You shouldn't be looking at guys like Q, etc, because they are the statistical outliers....go and look at the tons of mediocre players with Jones' measureables.

That's why I went and looked at the top 10 last year. I'd say that's a pretty good group to use as comparsion (even though I don't consider him great, only really good).

You dont' understand outliers then. And you certainly dont' see his marginal playing speed..which was a criticism coming out of college

1. Andre Johnson..bigger and faster.
2. Fitz..bigger and slightly faster
3. Smith...faster
4. Roddy White..faster
5. Jennings...faster
6. Brandon Marshall...bigger
7. Bryant...same
8. Welker...smaller
9. Wayne..faster
10. Vincent Jacson...bigger

So, out of the top ten, you have one that has the same measurements in Bryant, and 2 that are smaller.

Sorry, but that doesn't bode well for your argument.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Otherwise you are down the wrong road..a road that has you proclaiming, "jones has it." :roll:

Never set out to prove anything. I set out to disprove the "he doesn't have it" sentiment and expressed the opinion that I think he does. I think I did a fine job.

Now, as far as if he turns out to be the big play I guy I think he is, time will tell. I don't expect big time yardage totals this year (not enough footballs to go around) but I do expect big, memorable plays; several of them.

And the partial transformation is nearly complete.

Stats...stats don't mean anything.

Use stats...ooops you used them incorrectly and were wrong.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Never set out to prove anything. I set out to disprove the "he doesn't have it" sentiment and expressed the opinion that I think he does. I think I did a fine job.

It was fun arguing with you. Actually, things remained civil. We tried to use some facts to prove our point. It comes down to what you see. I see Jones for what he is now--which isn't bad. I don't see him getting a lot better. Nah, I wish you'd be this civil when arguing about Brett--instead of trying to get a rise out of "the Others."

[HarveyWallbangers]

I'd add.


1. Andre Johnson..bigger and much faster
2. Fitz..bigger and slightly faster with elite ball skills and body control
3. Smith...faster with elite quickness and route running ability
4. Roddy White..faster
5. Jennings...faster with elite route running and yards after catch ability
6. Brandon Marshall...bigger and faster
7. Bryant...same
8. Welker...smaller with elite quickness and hands
9. Wayne..faster with elite route running ability and Peyton Manning :)
10. Vincent Jacson...much bigger and maybe faster also

[Partial]

You shouldn't be looking at guys like Q, etc, because they are the statistical outliers....go and look at the tons of mediocre players with Jones' measureables.

That's why I went and looked at the top 10 last year. I'd say that's a pretty good group to use as comparsion (even though I don't consider him great, only really good).

You dont' understand outliers then. And you certainly dont' see his marginal playing speed..which was a criticism coming out of college

1. Andre Johnson..bigger and faster.
2. Fitz..bigger and slightly faster
3. Smith...faster
4. Roddy White..faster
5. Jennings...faster
6. Brandon Marshall...bigger
7. Bryant...same
8. Welker...smaller
9. Wayne..faster
10. Vincent Jacson...bigger

So, out of the top ten, you have one that has the same measurements in Bryant, and 2 that are smaller.

Sorry, but that doesn't bode well for your argument.

LOL Jennings at 5 despite you saying he wasn't even top 15 a month or so ago. Ty, you crack me up bro.

With that said, I still didn't see anything great out of whitey this year. He didn't have a stand out game that I can recall, yet I can recall many games where Jones was an X factor to start last year.

The dude was injured last year. Let it go. I also don't understand the comparison to top 10 receivers. That's a little premature, dontchathink?

To me, Jordy looks taller, but lankier and slower. Better hands? I'm not so sure as James Jones is known for his hands.

[HarveyWallbangers]

LOL Jennings at 5 despite you saying he wasn't even top 15 a month or so ago. Ty, you crack me up bro.

That's the top 10 statistically last year, I believe.


With that said, I still didn't see anything great out of whitey this year. He didn't have a stand out game that I can recall, yet I can recall many games where Jones was an X factor to start last year.


To me, Jordy looks taller, but lankier and slower. Better hands? I'm not so sure as James Jones is known for his hands.

LOL. I wish you scouted for the Vikings.


The wide receivers dropped 24 of 359 targeted passes for a drop rate of 6.69%, their poorest since 7.87% in 2002. The unit dropped 4.11% in 2006 and 5.63% in '07.

Jordy Nelson had the best hands, dropping just one ball in 53 attempts (1.89%). Donald Driver dropped seven of 113 (6.2%), Greg Jennings dropped nine of 138 (6.52%), Ruvell Martin dropped three of 26 (11.54%) and James Jones dropped four of 29 (13.8%). Lee dropped four of 49 (8.16%), Brandon Jackson dropped two of 39 (5.1%) and Grant dropped two of 22 (9.1%).

[Partial]

Surprised by those numbers. Jones is known for his hands. Very surprised they're that poor.

[Lurker64]

Surprised by those numbers. Jones is known for his hands. Very surprised they're that poor.

I don't think you're giving Jordy enough credit, leading up to the draft the scouting report on him was essentially:

1) Amazing hands.
2) Gives 100% on every play.
3) Excellent blocker, and a physical player.
4) Has some good moves, and does well in traffic.
5) Great intangibles , A+ character, a self made guy and a hard worker.
6) Not ideally fast (4.5) or quick, but good enough to play in the NFL.

Seriously, watch one of his senior year highlight videos on youtube (I like This one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIUu-nLx0lw), despite the stupid title) and let me know what you think of his hands.

From my own experience watching the games, James Jones has very strong hands, but Nelson's hands aren't much less strong and he's got a softer touch when he catches the ball ( and he shows really good concentration when catching the ball too.)

Regardless though, it's not really who's "the #3 receiver" as the past couple years with McCarthy have demonstrated that he likes to have receivers with different skillsets and he runs plays to take advantage of those skills. So you'll see all mixtures of however many receivers we have active on game day. Last year, McCarthy liked to have both Nelson and Martin in as the WRs in short yardage because both those guys are very physical so you can throw to them in traffic, and both are excellent run blockers, even though they're not the #1 and #2 guys.

Hell, if you want to take 6 WRs into the season, can you imagine the running plays McCarthy would devise out of the four WR set formation when 3 of his WRs are Nelson (6-3 220), Martin (6-4 220), and Jamarko Simmons (6-2 230), plus Driver or Jennings to keep the defense honest? Aside from Jennings and Driver, we do have an unusually beefy WR core.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

You shouldn't be looking at guys like Q, etc, because they are the statistical outliers....go and look at the tons of mediocre players with Jones' measureables.

That's why I went and looked at the top 10 last year. I'd say that's a pretty good group to use as comparsion (even though I don't consider him great, only really good).

You dont' understand outliers then. And you certainly dont' see his marginal playing speed..which was a criticism coming out of college

1. Andre Johnson..bigger and faster.
2. Fitz..bigger and slightly faster
3. Smith...faster
4. Roddy White..faster
5. Jennings...faster
6. Brandon Marshall...bigger
7. Bryant...same
8. Welker...smaller
9. Wayne..faster
10. Vincent Jacson...bigger

So, out of the top ten, you have one that has the same measurements in Bryant, and 2 that are smaller.

Sorry, but that doesn't bode well for your argument.

LOL Jennings at 5 despite you saying he wasn't even top 15 a month or so ago. Ty, you crack me up bro.

With that said, I still didn't see anything great out of whitey this year. He didn't have a stand out game that I can recall, yet I can recall many games where Jones was an X factor to start last year.

The dude was injured last year. Let it go. I also don't understand the comparison to top 10 receivers. That's a little premature, dontchathink?

To me, Jordy looks taller, but lankier and slower. Better hands? I'm not so sure as James Jones is known for his hands.

Do you work at being an idiot.

I am working with the criteria presented to me by Justin. He is using the stats presented by ESPN. :oops:

Does it ever get tiring removing your head from your ass?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Surprised by those numbers. Jones is known for his hands. Very surprised they're that poor.

Stick to your position. Stats mean nothing. :lol:

[RashanGary]

I remember Jones having great hands his rookie year (although he did have fumble problems). I thought Jones hands were better than Jennings and Drivers two years ago (just my impression).

Last year I do remember him dropping a lot of balls and getting tackled by air. That injury hurt him badly IMHO. It appeared that he was constantly worried about the pain and never himself.

[HarveyWallbangers]

That injury hurt him badly IMHO. It appeared that he was constantly worried about the pain and never himself.

I would agree with this. I think he'll bounce back and play like his rookie year. Maybe he'll play a little better. Just don't see greatness. But I guess we know where each other stands now.
:D

[RashanGary]

That injury hurt him badly IMHO. It appeared that he was constantly worried about the pain and never himself.

I would agree with this. I think he'll bounce back and play like his rookie year. Maybe he'll play a little better. Just don't see greatness. But I guess we know where each other stands now.
:D

I don't think greatness either. A notch below Driver is my prediction of him. Good #2 receiver caliber.

[Scott Campbell]

Can he hold on to the ball?

[sharpe1027]

Trying to predict just how good Jones will end up being is one thing. Comparing him to Jordy is another.

My take. Jones has shown more than Jordy. I like them both, but I was rather underwhelmed by Jordy. He was consistent at catching the ball and a good blocker, but did he have much YAC? Did he get separation? Was he a target the red zone? Did he make many big plays?

Pretty much a big fat NO across the board. Not saying he can't do those things, but given equal oppurtunitites and health, Jones showed me more. Maybe he looks slow sometimes, maybe he went down easy on some plays, but damn if he doesn't find a way to get open down the field and make some plays with the ball in his hands (assuming he doesn't drop the ball). :lol:

[rbaloha1]

Trying to predict just how good Jones will end up being is one thing. Comparing him to Jordy is another.

My take. Jones has shown more than Jordy. I like them both, but I was rather underwhelmed by Jordy. He was consistent at catching the ball and a good blocker, but did he have much YAC? Did he get separation? Was he a target the red zone? Did he make many big plays?

Pretty much a big fat NO across the board. Not saying he can't do those things, but given equal oppurtunitites and health, Jones showed me more. Maybe he looks slow sometimes, maybe he went down easy on some plays, but damn if he doesn't find a way to get open down the field and make some plays with the ball in his hands (assuming he doesn't drop the ball). :lol:

IMO you are being too critical of Nelson. The dude was a rookie on a team with established veterans.

The question who has more upside and eventually the starter opposite Jennings.

[sharpe1027]

Trying to predict just how good Jones will end up being is one thing. Comparing him to Jordy is another.

My take. Jones has shown more than Jordy. I like them both, but I was rather underwhelmed by Jordy. He was consistent at catching the ball and a good blocker, but did he have much YAC? Did he get separation? Was he a target the red zone? Did he make many big plays?

Pretty much a big fat NO across the board. Not saying he can't do those things, but given equal oppurtunitites and health, Jones showed me more. Maybe he looks slow sometimes, maybe he went down easy on some plays, but damn if he doesn't find a way to get open down the field and make some plays with the ball in his hands (assuming he doesn't drop the ball). :lol:

IMO you are being too critical of Nelson. The dude was a rookie on a team with established veterans.

The question who has more upside and eventually the starter opposite Jennings.

I don't get all the excuses for Nelson but not for Jones. It seems that being critical of Nelson is wrong, while being critical of Jones is just good analysis. Sure Nelson was on team with some Vets ahead of hime, but wasn't Nelson on the same team as Jones?

I don't doubt that Nelson might end up being good or even better than Jones, but there are a couple pages of posters being critical of Jones. I don't disagree that Jones has some big question marks, however, those critical of Jones should be equally critical of Nelson.

It is a close call, due to Jone's inconsistencies, but I just didn't see enough to make Nelson stand out. I voted Jones.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Go ahead. What would you criticize Nelson on? What abilities is he lacking? What are his strengths? I think I stated several times what I did and didn't like about both guys.

[Scott Campbell]

I don't doubt that Nelson might end up being good or even better than Jones, but there are a couple pages of posters being critical of Jones. I don't disagree that Jones has some big question marks, however, those critical of Jones should be equally critical of Nelson.


Jordy hasn't cost us a game yet - the way Jones did with his 2 fumbles against the Bears in 07. Jordy stayed healthy too.

[sharpe1027]

Go ahead. What would you criticize Nelson on? What abilities is he lacking? What are his strengths? I think I stated several times what I did and didn't like about both guys.

Harv,

I explained both sides already, and was told I was being too critical of Nelson. There is no right or wrong answer. To summarize, IMO, Jones shows some promise but some problems. Jordy just seems average, no problems, no great plays. Either one could be considered more valuable depending upon your perspective.

Maybe we should just flip a coin?

[sharpe1027]

Jordy hasn't cost us a game yet - the way Jones did with his 2 fumbles against the Bears in 07. Jordy stayed healthy too..

Yes. I still like Jones, but that makes it a close call for me. Jones was health his first year too...

[rbaloha1]

I don't doubt that Nelson might end up being good or even better than Jones, but there are a couple pages of posters being critical of Jones. I don't disagree that Jones has some big question marks, however, those critical of Jones should be equally critical of Nelson.

Jordy hasn't cost us a game yet - the way Jones did with his 2 fumbles against the Bears in 07. Jordy stayed healthy too.

Good point. So far, Nelson has not screwed up as much as Jones with fumbles, drops and excuses. Jones is still a good player but needs to show more consistency.

[Scott Campbell]

Go ahead. What would you criticize Nelson on? What abilities is he lacking? What are his strengths? I think I stated several times what I did and didn't like about both guys.

Harv,

I explained both sides already, and was told I was being too critical of Nelson. There is no right or wrong answer. To summarize, IMO, Jones shows some promise but some problems. Jordy just seems average, no problems, no great plays. Either one could be considered more valuable depending upon your perspective.

Maybe we should just flip a coin?


I haven't done the research, but it seems to me like Jordy was a very frequent target on critical 3rd downs. I know what you're saying about him looking average, but it was his 3rd down receptions that impressed me most about him last year.

[sharpe1027]

I haven't done the research, but it seems to me like Jordy was a very frequent target on critical 3rd downs. I know what you're saying about him looking average, but it was his 3rd down receptions that impressed me most about him last year.

Good point, I can remember a few for sure. Another plus is that a QB having confidence that you will catch anything goes a long way to getting more balls thrown your way.

Maybe I am rooting for the underdog, but there are plenty of good players that had some ball-control issues early in their careers. Sometimes it is an easy fix, sometimes it is just bad luck. other times the guy gets shown the door. I am hoping for the first two times.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I'm not sure there is even an underdog. Both were unheralded coming out of high school. Sort of unheralded coming out of college... Jordy in the 2nd round and JJ in the 3rd round. Both had solid rookie seasons. People think both are solid players but likely won't be stars. The vote is close.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think I need to adjust my TV set. I saw Jones drop ball after ball last season. I can't believe so many people see him as having the same upside as Nelson.

[chain_gang]

Overall, it's a flip of the coin, I think both can be a valuable at #3. That being said, I voted for Jones. Jones seem to have more of a knack for making big plays, sure he had a terrible game against the bears his rookie year, but he also played a huge part in our win at Denver, I believe he beat Bailey badly for a 79 yard TD during that game, and even last year when he was healthy is still a threat for big plays(Jacksonville game). His route running is also pretty impressive to me. Also, anyone that can do this gets the nod in my book.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCnJpjj5jHk



As for Jordy, he does have talent, and size, but until I can see some explosiveness out of him, I gotta give the nod to Jones, barring injury.

[SkinBasket]

Does James Jones even still play for the Packers?

[Gunakor]

Does James Jones even still play for the Packers?

Yes, and I'm glad. I agree with the sentiment expressed here that Jones could be a legitimate #2 caliber WR, and thus am very pleased that he'll be our #4. Both Jones and Nelson would make outstanding #2's on most other teams. I just don't think that, even considering his ability to make plays from time to time, he'll overtake Nelson for the #3 spot on OUR team due to his inconsistency.

[sharpe1027]

I think I need to adjust my TV set. I saw Jones drop ball after ball last season. I can't believe so many people see him as having the same upside as Nelson.

No, you have it all wrong. Jones has more upside than Nelson, not the same.

Nelson was more consistent with less upside, Jones was less consistent with more upside.

Where exactly are you coming from regarding Nelson's upside? He seemed to be able to block and catch the ball when it was thrown his way. Nothing else stood out to me.

The answer to the question is unkowable, unprovable and highly-subjective. I won't be the least bit surprised if I end up being completely wrong. For the sake of this discussion, however, I still vote for Jones to do more this coming year.

[Ryche]

Jones is a beast... Nelson will needs to show me more before i call him a beast. ...

[rbaloha1]

I think I need to adjust my TV set. I saw Jones drop ball after ball last season. I can't believe so many people see him as having the same upside as Nelson.

Jones probably has more upside. The question is will Jones reach upside like Freeman, Brooks, Sharpe, Driver and Jennings or be a Schroeder?

My guess is more a Schroeder type rather than an elite receiver.

[woodbuck27]

Jordy Nelson has the draft position, the tools and the reputation out of college. He will step it up this season.

[SkinBasket]

Jordy Nelson has the draft position

I know whenever I catch a football, I just recall my draft position and it seems to fall into my hands.

[Scott Campbell]

For all the hype about Jordy's speed and play making capability, I didn't see him get great separation on most of his routes. He looked like a crafty good hands guy to me.

[rbaloha1]

For all the hype about Jordy's speed and play making capability, I didn't see him get great separation on most of his routes. He looked like a crafty good hands guy to me.

So what is the point? Jordy does not have stopwatch speed (4.52 in the 40 I believe Jones is around 4.62 I believe) but football speed. Recall Jordy making some big plays on double moves.

[Scott Campbell]

For all the hype about Jordy's speed and play making capability, I didn't see him get great separation on most of his routes. He looked like a crafty good hands guy to me.

So what is the point? Jordy does not have stopwatch speed (4.52 in the 40 I believe Jones is around 4.62 I believe) but football speed. Recall Jordy making some big plays on double moves.


I guess my point is that I don't think the he has the tools to become a #1. We passed on Eddie Royal and DeSean Jackson, and those guys look like they could become legit #1's.

[The Leaper]

I really like Jones...and he should really be able to put everything together this season.

I think both guys can be starting caliber WRs in the NFL. Jones has the size to be a major threat on 3rd downs and in the redzone. I also like him in the slot with his size...3rd and 4th string DBs would get abused by him.

Nelson has the sneaky speed and hands...he needs a little more polish at this point, but with Robinson coaching him up he will get there in time.

As Driver declines, you will see both of these guys step up IMO...and you need both of them because they bring different components to the passing game.

[Scott Campbell]

As Driver declines, you will see both of these guys step up IMO...and you need both of them because they bring different components to the passing game.


I really agree with this. Jones gets good separation deep - despite his 40 time.

[Partial]

Surprised by those numbers. Jones is known for his hands. Very surprised they're that poor.

Stick to your position. Stats mean nothing. :lol:

Some stats are more telling than others. It's much harder to come up with an argument for drops than some other stats.

I didn't read the whole thread so I had no idea that list was Harrell provided. My bad.

That said, I didn't see much from Whitey last year. Perhaps I'm remembering incorrectly, but I didn't see a lot of the things others are claiming.

[GrnBay007]

JJ!! :clap:

[SnakeLH2006]

Jordy will be the 3rd WR, yet much more upside to JJ. Seen JJ make crazy plays (ala Sterling) and Jordy looks the part as just a guy. Love JJ, yet BS will make Jordy (draft status, politics) the default #3. It's too bad as JJ, when healthy, looks like a helluva NFL WR. Jordy...not saying he can't be, but the jury is out. Haven't seen him do anything to get excited about.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Surprised by those numbers. Jones is known for his hands. Very surprised they're that poor.

Stick to your position. Stats mean nothing. :lol:

Some stats are more telling than others. It's much harder to come up with an argument for drops than some other stats.

I didn't read the whole thread so I had no idea that list was Harrell provided. My bad.

That said, I didn't see much from Whitey last year. Perhaps I'm remembering incorrectly, but I didn't see a lot of the things others are claiming.

Stats: And, i'm sure that you will tell us which ones are and which ones aren't...flipping each time to support your position. :lol:

Thread: Ok. Maybe you have recognized a flaw. Best not to enter a discussion till you know all the facts.

Whitey: I dont' expect much from rookie WRs. Hard position to learn and to get on the field. You will, if you read back, notice i have said nothing about who was better, who will be better, or jordie's production, future, etc.

Ty watches and waits.

[Cornholio]

James Jones is the more athletically gifted of the 2 and the one who is more apt to get you YAC. That being said, his mental state and not being able to stay healthy are what have really hurt his development in his 1st two seasons. If he can stay healthy and in the right frame of mind it's no contest who the better WR is, IMO.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

James Jones is the more athletically gifted of the 2 and the one who is more apt to get you YAC. That being said, his mental state and not being able to stay healthy are what have really hurt his development in his 1st two seasons. If he can stay healthy and in the right frame of mind it's no contest who the better WR is, IMO.

Based on what? :lol:

Jordy holds the Kansas High School State Track Record in Class 3A in the 100m...Jones..nadda.

High School: Jones middling athlete who attends San Jose State. Jordy is second-team all-state selection for all divisions as a senior at both quarterback and defensive back.

Jones did nothing for 3 years in college. Jordy walks on, and by his soph year had 45 catches and 8 tds. The following year..he is on the Biletnikoff watch list.

Jordy is faster. Jordy in college produced more. He is more decorated athlete.

You really don't know shit.

[Partial]

It's absolutely fair to compare a Cali athlete to a Kansas athlete, too, while we're at it with the eye rolling :roll: :roll: Might as well start comparing some of the oak creek boys to the football players of Florida or Texas...

Jones stayed close to home for school. I really don't have a problem with that and neither should you. That's the only reason he was the more decorated college receiver. That, and the fact Jordy played in a pass first offense with a quarterback who went as a #1.

I cannot remember a single big play that Jordy made where I thought "wow". I remember several from Jones. I have no idea who will be the better player, hopefully they're both great, but to this point I think Jones has shown more and I don't see the "awesomeness" some of you see in Jordy. I might rank Ruvell ahead of him to be honest. I at least remember Ruvell stepping up and making some plays.

[pbmax]

James Jones is the more athletically gifted of the 2 and the one who is more apt to get you YAC.

It's absolutely fair to compare a Cali athlete to a Kansas athlete, too, while we're at it with the eye rolling

Beautiful. Absent facts, one person compares "athletics" and the other their state. More and more I am surprised that we all don't still believe the world is flat.

Wide Receivers...School.........Ht......Wt 40 20 10 Vert. Broad Shuttle 3Cone
Jordy Nelson Kansas State 6'3 217 4.51 2.64 1.57 31 10'03" 4.35 7.03
Jones, James San Jose St. 6'1" 207 4.54 2.65 1.54 34" 9'11" 4.20 7.06

[SkinBasket]

I might rank Ruvell ahead of him to be honest.

That is not surprising. Is Ruvell revolutionizing the position of WR from the bench? If only we ran the wildcat...

[Fritz]

Interesting. The above stats suggest that each player has specific strengths and weaknesses...looks like Jones can jump higher and has a better burst and shuttle, but that Nelson is faster and taller.

Don't know what that means in terms of football skills, but real information during a debate - how cool is that? Thanks, PB, for attempting to inject some fact into this discussion.

[pbmax]

Quoted from earlier, replies in bold:

Jones stayed close to home for school.
Jones is from San Jose, he went to San Jose St.
Nelson is from Manhattan Kansas and went to Kansas St. Which is located in Manhattan, Kansas.

I really don't have a problem with that and neither should you.
No one has a problem with it because no one else has mentioned it, except for now. But the beauty is that one receiver is named, and then the fact associated with it is used to question someone else's credentials. Despite the fact that both stayed close home. And that this point makes no sense.

That's the only reason he was the more decorated college receiver.
So receivers who play close to home always have tremendous success. Of course, it all makes perfect sense.

That, and the fact Jordy played in a pass first offense with a quarterback who went as a #1.
Did you ever see San Jose St. play?

As for your memories, of course you will have more of them for Ruvell and James. They have been here longer.

[Partial]

Are you implying that San Jose State is as good of a football school as KS?

I have seen SJS play. They're on ESPN a lot on Friday nights I feel like. I certainly don't think they've had a Josh Freeman type QB, though.

[MJZiggy]

THE QB ISN'T EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!

Good Lord, it's a team sport. Dilfer went to a SuperBowl remember...

[Partial]

James Jones is the more athletically gifted of the 2 and the one who is more apt to get you YAC.

It's absolutely fair to compare a Cali athlete to a Kansas athlete, too, while we're at it with the eye rolling

Beautiful. Absent facts, one person compares "athletics" and the other their state. More and more I am surprised that we all don't still believe the world is flat.

Wide Receivers...School.........Ht......Wt 40 20 10 Vert. Broad Shuttle 3Cone
Jordy Nelson Kansas State 6'3 217 4.51 2.64 1.57 31 10'03" 4.35 7.03
Jones, James San Jose St. 6'1" 207 4.54 2.65 1.54 34" 9'11" 4.20 7.06


And as you can see, they're close. My point is saying the state was it takes a heck of a lot more to be recognized in Cali than it does in Kansas. Far more good athletes due to higher population.

[Partial]

THE QB ISN'T EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!

Good Lord, it's a team sport. Dilfer went to a SuperBowl remember...

Yes, with an all-world defense. QB is by far the most important position. Don't be ignorant. Put a good quarterback on the Badgers and they're a contender. Leave Sherer as the starter and they're a below .500 club.

I've posted this time and time again, but look at the super bowl winners of the past 20 years and you tell me theirs not a trend of star QBs.

[MJZiggy]

Is it a trend of star QBs, or are the QBs stars for having won Super Bowls? Put a stellar QB on a team with a crappy WR corps and see how much success he has and then have him hit free agency and move to a team with a better set of WRs or a better line or killer RBs and see how much more success he has. Suddenly he's "broken out" and is a "star QB." Don't kid yourself.

[Gunakor]

Is it a trend of star QBs, or are the QBs stars for having won Super Bowls? Put a stellar QB on a team with a crappy WR corps and see how much success he has and then have him hit free agency and move to a team with a better set of WRs or a better line or killer RBs and see how much more success he has. Suddenly he's "broken out" and is a "star QB." Don't kid yourself.

Good point. Did the star QB make the team a Super Bowl winner, or did a Super Bowl winning team make the QB a star?

[MJZiggy]

Is it a trend of star QBs, or are the QBs stars for having won Super Bowls? Put a stellar QB on a team with a crappy WR corps and see how much success he has and then have him hit free agency and move to a team with a better set of WRs or a better line or killer RBs and see how much more success he has. Suddenly he's "broken out" and is a "star QB." Don't kid yourself.

Good point. Did the star QB make the team a Super Bowl winner, or did a Super Bowl winning team make the QB a star?

Never mind. P has such a QB hard on that he'll never think critically enough to see the distinction. Not sure why I'm wasting my time with it.

And by the way, I'm thinking it will truly depend on what they want the #3 receiver to do. I see Jones as being a more finesse receiver and Nelson able to absorb and blow off a hit. The #3 decision will ultimately depend on how they decide to use #3 in this offense. I think the bigger question is whether this is the year Jennings fully supplants Driver in the #1 spot.

[Gunakor]

Is it a trend of star QBs, or are the QBs stars for having won Super Bowls? Put a stellar QB on a team with a crappy WR corps and see how much success he has and then have him hit free agency and move to a team with a better set of WRs or a better line or killer RBs and see how much more success he has. Suddenly he's "broken out" and is a "star QB." Don't kid yourself.

Good point. Did the star QB make the team a Super Bowl winner, or did a Super Bowl winning team make the QB a star?

Never mind. P has such a QB hard on that he'll never think critically enough to see the distinction. Not sure why I'm wasting my time with it.

And by the way, I'm thinking it will truly depend on what they want the #3 receiver to do. I see Jones as being a more finesse receiver and Nelson able to absorb and blow off a hit. The #3 decision will ultimately depend on how they decide to use #3 in this offense. I think the bigger question is whether this is the year Jennings fully supplants Driver in the #1 spot.

I honestly don't think it matters w/ Jennings and Driver being #1 or #2. They'll likely both be on the field together for most offensive snaps, and MM will probably have them each playing both sides of the line on occasion. They to me are more like 1a and 1b. And if the Packers were regularly going with 4 WR sets, you could make the argument that Jones and Nelson are 3a and 3b.

The question here is, in 3 WR sets, who's the 3rd guy? The reason I'd go with Nelson in this formation is because Nelson provides a much more reliable pair of hands, but the truth is I'd rather spread the field early and often (like 2007) so that I can get them both on the field.

[Partial]

Is it a trend of star QBs, or are the QBs stars for having won Super Bowls? Put a stellar QB on a team with a crappy WR corps and see how much success he has and then have him hit free agency and move to a team with a better set of WRs or a better line or killer RBs and see how much more success he has. Suddenly he's "broken out" and is a "star QB." Don't kid yourself.

Your thought process doesn't make a lot of sense here. I'm sure Steve Young, Brett Favre, Troy Aikman, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, and Big Ben are all just average players... Not playmakers at all! Hell, plug in Heath Shuler and you'd still win the big game!

You can tout the ravens card, but anyone who has any understanding of statistics at all can look at the raw data and decipher that is clearly a statistically anomaly.

This is the kind of stuff that makes me realize why people around here think Rodgers is such a stud. They think every QB in the NFL is average and don't understand the importance.

Having a quality QB makes an even bigger difference in college than it does in the NFL imo.

With that said, Jones is a finesse receiver and Nelson can absorb the blows? I've seen Jones take far more big hits and stay upright than Nelson. I've also seen Jones produce in the NFL, which I haven't seen from Nelson. Like I said, I have no idea who's going to be better, but there isn't anything that stands out to me about Nelson the way there is about Jones.

[Scott Campbell]

Your knowledge of football is clearly limited.


:shock:


:lol:

[pbmax]

Your knowledge of football is clearly limited. I'm sure Steve Young, Brett Favre, Troy Aikman, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, and Big Ben are all just average players... Not playmakers at all!
Archie Manning, Bert Jones, Jim Plunkett (the Patriots version) Steve Young (prior to the 49ers), Johnny Unitas (after being cut by the Steelers) and the collegiate Tom Brady would all like a word with you. :)

[pbmax]

Are you implying that San Jose State is as good of a football school as KS?

I have seen SJS play. They're on ESPN a lot on Friday nights I feel like. I certainly don't think they've had a Josh Freeman type QB, though.

I don't know how they would compare straight up, but they don't compete against the same quality of opposition as Kansas St. would either. WAC versus Big 12. And the pass first K State offense isn't quite as pass first as you seem to imply. And San Jose St. isn't exactly 3 yards and a cloud of dust either.

And so we are left with an argument that A is better than B because of Factor Y. Yet it is ignored that Factor Y cuts for and against both sides of the argument. So as per usual, we are left with nothing but heated words and a position unestablished by any fact.

And by the way, if Nelson can produce numbers at the combine while 2 inches taller and 10 lbs heavier, I think by definition he might be the better athlete and again by definition, a better pro prospect.

Which was my original point. Jones has done more so far and has two years in. I think he has the inside position to be #3. But Nelson is going to make a leap this year and next, and if he capitalizes on his gifts, he stands to be the better pro.

[pbmax]

Attempts:

Kansas St.
2008
425 pass
408 rush
2007
510 pass
351 rush
2006
415 pass
372 rush

San Jose St.
2008
383 pass
386 rush
2007
450 pass
385 rush
2006
294 pass
489 rush
2005
360 pass
389 rush

[SkinBasket]

This is the kind of stuff that makes me realize why people around here think Rodgers is such a stud. They think every QB in the NFL is average and don't understand the importance.

We're all idiots. Football is the game with the pointy ball right?

[Partial]

Are you implying that San Jose State is as good of a football school as KS?

I have seen SJS play. They're on ESPN a lot on Friday nights I feel like. I certainly don't think they've had a Josh Freeman type QB, though.

I don't know how they would compare straight up, but they don't compete against the same quality of opposition as Kansas St. would either. WAC versus Big 12. And the pass first K State offense isn't quite as pass first as you seem to imply. And San Jose St. isn't exactly 3 yards and a cloud of dust either.

And so we are left with an argument that A is better than B because of Factor Y. Yet it is ignored that Factor Y cuts for and against both sides of the argument. So as per usual, we are left with nothing but heated words and a position unestablished by any fact.

And by the way, if Nelson can produce numbers at the combine while 2 inches taller and 10 lbs heavier, I think by definition he might be the better athlete and again by definition, a better pro prospect.

Which was my original point. Jones has done more so far and has two years in. I think he has the inside position to be #3. But Nelson is going to make a leap this year and next, and if he capitalizes on his gifts, he stands to be the better pro.

I don't disagree with you at all :D

The only comment on the athleticism was stating that comparing a guy in a huge, competitive state like Cali to Kansas is a bit unfair.

I have no idea who's going to be better. Jones seems to be a play maker though thus far imo. As I've noted, I haven't seen anything stick out from Nelson the way I saw Jones in his rookie year. That could be any number of factors.

We're in agreement :wink:

[SkinBasket]

There's more footballs in California than there are in Kansas, therefore California footballs are better. Lesson learned. Buy California footballs. The pointy ones.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I don't know what point being made was, but Kansas State hasn't traditionally nor recently been a football factory. Historically, they haven't been good. Then, they went through a period where they were good. However, considering their record the last several years, I'm thinking they are back to being not very good.

2004 - 4-7
2005 - 5-6
2006 - 7-6
2007 - 5-7
2008 - 5-7

They are 26-33 over the last 5 years.

[CaptainD]

Nelson not even close.

[Lurker64]

I think Partial has a point re: Kansas vs. California insofar as we're comparing statewide competition. Nelson having the High School State Track Record in the 100m would be more impressive if he held it in California than if he held it in Kansas. Since there are more people in California, so you have a lot more competition to be the very best at something.

On the other hand, insofar as football competitions are concerned, it's hard to argue that there isn't a higher level of football played in the Big 12 than there is in the WAC. The Big 12 is a very good conference historically, the WAC has only recently featured 2-3 good teams whose impressive records are somewhat indicted by their suspect competition.

I like the WAC a lot, but it's nowhere near in the class of the Big 12.

[pbmax]

I think Partial has a point re: Kansas vs. California insofar as we're comparing statewide competition. Nelson having the High School State Track Record in the 100m would be more impressive if he held it in California than if he held it in Kansas. Since there are more people in California, so you have a lot more competition to be the very best at something.
Agreed. But even better would be a number to compare the two and not just inferring by population.

Jordy Nelson: 3A - Jordy Nelson, Riley-Riley County, 10.63—2003

At his size, I think Jordy has better upside athletically and pointy-ballly (thanks Skin). But like everyone else, he has got to do it on the field.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

It's absolutely fair to compare a Cali athlete to a Kansas athlete, too, while we're at it with the eye rolling :roll: :roll: Might as well start comparing some of the oak creek boys to the football players of Florida or Texas...

Jones stayed close to home for school. I really don't have a problem with that and neither should you. That's the only reason he was the more decorated college receiver. That, and the fact Jordy played in a pass first offense with a quarterback who went as a #1.

I cannot remember a single big play that Jordy made where I thought "wow". I remember several from Jones. I have no idea who will be the better player, hopefully they're both great, but to this point I think Jones has shown more and I don't see the "awesomeness" some of you see in Jordy. I might rank Ruvell ahead of him to be honest. I at least remember Ruvell stepping up and making some plays.

Who is comparing athletes by state. I am merely pointing out that jordy was an athlete...and asking for the basis of his judgement.

But, your point is dumb. Recruiters do evaluate players across the states and compare them. Yes, you do compare a wisco athlete with a florida. That is why we recruit in multiple states..but, that doesn't mean that wisco can't produce a 5 star recruit.

Stayed home: Yeah, that is what happened. Get serious. He went to SJS because that was his best option. Just like Jordy went to Kansas..because he walked on.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I might rank Ruvell ahead of him to be honest.

That is not surprising. Is Ruvell revolutionizing the position of WR from the bench? If only we ran the wildcat...

Fuck, you are dumb.

Ruvell wouldn't run the wildcat...they are working on a whole new offense that compliments his skillset.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

James Jones is the more athletically gifted of the 2 and the one who is more apt to get you YAC.

It's absolutely fair to compare a Cali athlete to a Kansas athlete, too, while we're at it with the eye rolling

Beautiful. Absent facts, one person compares "athletics" and the other their state. More and more I am surprised that we all don't still believe the world is flat.

Wide Receivers...School.........Ht......Wt 40 20 10 Vert. Broad Shuttle 3Cone
Jordy Nelson Kansas State 6'3 217 4.51 2.64 1.57 31 10'03" 4.35 7.03
Jones, James San Jose St. 6'1" 207 4.54 2.65 1.54 34" 9'11" 4.20 7.06


And as you can see, they're close. My point is saying the state was it takes a heck of a lot more to be recognized in Cali than it does in Kansas. Far more good athletes due to higher population.

Cept you are wrong, as usual.

Jordy despite being a kansas record holder in track and various accolades in football....walked on.

College recruiters find you..if you are in cali, hawaii, or kansas.

[ThunderDan]

You can tout the ravens card, but anyone who has any understanding of statistics at all can look at the raw data and decipher that is clearly a statistically anomaly.


Sorry Partial, but this line from you is a complete laugher!!

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I think Partial has a point re: Kansas vs. California insofar as we're comparing statewide competition. Nelson having the High School State Track Record in the 100m would be more impressive if he held it in California than if he held it in Kansas. Since there are more people in California, so you have a lot more competition to be the very best at something.

On the other hand, insofar as football competitions are concerned, it's hard to argue that there isn't a higher level of football played in the Big 12 than there is in the WAC. The Big 12 is a very good conference historically, the WAC has only recently featured 2-3 good teams whose impressive records are somewhat indicted by their suspect competition.

I like the WAC a lot, but it's nowhere near in the class of the Big 12.

Lurker,

This is a false argument created by Partial.

Cornholio posited that Jones was a better athlete. I merely listed Jordy's accomplishments. That wasnt' to say they were better or worse than Jones...only to say that anyone who is all state and is a record holder is prolly a good athlete...and that he had no basis for his statement.

You will notice in my post i never made the jump to..because he did this..he is better. I merely poked a little hole in the argument.

And, then boom..pb comes in with the facts..and behold..jordy is comparable.

[ThunderDan]

I think Partial has a point re: Kansas vs. California insofar as we're comparing statewide competition. Nelson having the High School State Track Record in the 100m would be more impressive if he held it in California than if he held it in Kansas. Since there are more people in California, so you have a lot more competition to be the very best at something.


The problem with that logic is the following:

I'd rather have the US 100m champion over Bolt from Jamaica because the US has a much larger population and therefore harder to win the national 100m record.

I would look at times not how many people competed in a specific area.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

You can tout the ravens card, but anyone who has any understanding of statistics at all can look at the raw data and decipher that is clearly a statistically anomaly.


Sorry Partial, but this line from you is a complete laugher!!

Paging partial, mr. madoff needs new analysts.

[Lurker64]

Ruvell wouldn't run the wildcat...they are working on a whole new offense that compliments his skillset.

Wait, if you were going to use anybody as your Wildcat QB, why wouldn't it be Ruvell? Back in 2007, when the only players listed as QB on the roster were Favre and Rodgers, Ruvell Martin was penciled in as the emergency 3rd string backup QB (as well as Charles Woodson, some weeks), and it probably wasn't due to his passing ability (though he was an all-state QB in high school, I don't have a clue what offense he played in).

Note that I don't see the Packers running the Wildcat with anybody... though they did occasionally run that play in 2007 where Favre split out wide and Driver lined up as the QB...

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I think Partial has a point re: Kansas vs. California insofar as we're comparing statewide competition. Nelson having the High School State Track Record in the 100m would be more impressive if he held it in California than if he held it in Kansas. Since there are more people in California, so you have a lot more competition to be the very best at something.


The problem with that logic is the following:

I'd rather have the US 100m champion over Bolt from Jamaica because the US has a much larger population and therefore harder to win the national 100m record.

I would look at times not how many people competed in a specific area.

Yeah, i'm not a stat person...but, i would have to guess that whatever the top deviation is...that most of the top runners would fall into it from most states.

For example, Nelson ran i think a 10.63 and this year, Cali in 09 had someone named Carroll who was a national leader....he ran a 10.30.

Clearly he is faster than jordy. However, that isn't the point. The point is whether you can compare a kansas athlete to a cali...and how do they compare. Hmm.

The #10 runner in Cali ran a 10.63...so jordy would be pretty damn good in Cali. And, it wouldn't be far off to say that his time is even more impressive considering that most likely he didn't get the training in track that cali students get, competed in football which is at odds with track...and for sure didn't get pushed by other competitors like those in cali do.

http://www.dyestatcal.com/Forms/Leaders.htm

What is funny is that partial is so clueless that he made this argument, when he lives in a state that has produced amazing track athletes/olympic class..floyd heard, michael bennett, etc.

BTW, bennett's 100m record...10.33. :oops:

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Ruvell wouldn't run the wildcat...they are working on a whole new offense that compliments his skillset.

Wait, if you were going to use anybody as your Wildcat QB, why wouldn't it be Ruvell? Back in 2007, when the only players listed as QB on the roster were Favre and Rodgers, Ruvell Martin was penciled in as the emergency 3rd string backup QB (as well as Charles Woodson, some weeks), and it probably wasn't due to his passing ability (though he was an all-state QB in high school, I don't have a clue what offense he played in).

Note that I don't see the Packers running the Wildcat with anybody... though they did occasionally run that play in 2007 where Favre split out wide and Driver lined up as the QB...

I was being sarcastic. Joking about Ruvell the way ballhawk does. Like he is so unique they were working on a whole new offense based on him.

BTW, just because he was a backup QB and black...doesn't mean he can run the wildcat.

Ruvell has yet to show shifyness, elusiveness, running ability etc...that is why he wouldn't be good in the wildcat.

P.S. We had Nall for awhile in 07..but, TT wouldnt' let him compete. :roll:

[Partial]

You can tout the ravens card, but anyone who has any understanding of statistics at all can look at the raw data and decipher that is clearly a statistically anomaly.


Sorry Partial, but this line from you is a complete laugher!!

What is the highest level of formal mathematics or statistics you have completed?

[Partial]

I think Partial has a point re: Kansas vs. California insofar as we're comparing statewide competition. Nelson having the High School State Track Record in the 100m would be more impressive if he held it in California than if he held it in Kansas. Since there are more people in California, so you have a lot more competition to be the very best at something.


The problem with that logic is the following:

I'd rather have the US 100m champion over Bolt from Jamaica because the US has a much larger population and therefore harder to win the national 100m record.

I would look at times not how many people competed in a specific area.

Certain states are good at certain things. The Wisconsin high school tennis champion gets killed by any state champ from the south or the west.

Ohio, Florida, Texas, a few other southern states and Cali are football factories..

Illinois, West Virginia, Indiana, etc are all basketball power houses...

The point was that it's pretty unfair to say he's better than another guy by simple saying "guy 1 has no acolades.. guy 2 is a state champ in a below average state", when guy 1 is from the state with the cream of the crop.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I think Partial has a point re: Kansas vs. California insofar as we're comparing statewide competition. Nelson having the High School State Track Record in the 100m would be more impressive if he held it in California than if he held it in Kansas. Since there are more people in California, so you have a lot more competition to be the very best at something.


The problem with that logic is the following:

I'd rather have the US 100m champion over Bolt from Jamaica because the US has a much larger population and therefore harder to win the national 100m record.

I would look at times not how many people competed in a specific area.

Certain states are good at certain things. The Wisconsin high school tennis champion gets killed by any state champ from the south or the west.

Ohio, Florida, Texas, a few other southern states and Cali are football factories..

Illinois, West Virginia, Indiana, etc are all basketball power houses...

The point was that it's pretty unfair to say he's better than another guy by simple saying "guy 1 has no acolades.. guy 2 is a state champ in a below average state", when guy 1 is from the state with the cream of the crop.

Factually wrong again. The top wisco tennis players are often ranked as int he top in their region and often in the nation.

The point isn't whether the top beats the top..it is whether they are in the same deviation..which they are or can be.

Lastly, nobody said one guy had accolades therefore he is better. You have created a strawman.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

You can tout the ravens card, but anyone who has any understanding of statistics at all can look at the raw data and decipher that is clearly a statistically anomaly.


Sorry Partial, but this line from you is a complete laugher!!

What is the highest level of formal mathematics or statistics you have completed?

Why ask? Certainly your stats at milwaukee and platteville dont' compete with Madison or better schools.

[ThunderDan]

You can tout the ravens card, but anyone who has any understanding of statistics at all can look at the raw data and decipher that is clearly a statistically anomaly.


Sorry Partial, but this line from you is a complete laugher!!

What is the highest level of formal mathematics or statistics you have completed?

500 level math and statistics from the University of Wisconsin - Madison, where I have my first degree a BS-Chemistry (223 or 227 was 3rd semester calc just so you will understand)

I had two semesters of calc completed upon graduating high school.

[Zool]

You can tout the ravens card, but anyone who has any understanding of statistics at all can look at the raw data and decipher that is clearly a statistically anomaly.


Sorry Partial, but this line from you is a complete laugher!!

What is the highest level of formal mathematics or statistics you have completed?

500 level math and statistics from the University of Wisconsin - Madison, where I have my first degree a BS-Chemistry (223 or 227 was 3rd semester calc just so you will understand)

I had two semesters of calc completed upon graduating high school.

I'm still confused. Who has the bigger penis?

[Bossman641]

You can tout the ravens card, but anyone who has any understanding of statistics at all can look at the raw data and decipher that is clearly a statistically anomaly.


Sorry Partial, but this line from you is a complete laugher!!

What is the highest level of formal mathematics or statistics you have completed?

500 level math and statistics from the University of Wisconsin - Madison, where I have my first degree a BS-Chemistry (223 or 227 was 3rd semester calc just so you will understand)

I had two semesters of calc completed upon graduating high school.

I'm still confused. Who has the bigger penis?

I think Partial does because he stayed closer to home....or something like that

[Tyrone Bigguns]

You can tout the ravens card, but anyone who has any understanding of statistics at all can look at the raw data and decipher that is clearly a statistically anomaly.


Sorry Partial, but this line from you is a complete laugher!!

What is the highest level of formal mathematics or statistics you have completed?

500 level math and statistics from the University of Wisconsin - Madison, where I have my first degree a BS-Chemistry (223 or 227 was 3rd semester calc just so you will understand)

I had two semesters of calc completed upon graduating high school.

I'm still confused. Who has the bigger penis?

Fuck you are dumb. They both have small penises..they are from wisco. Only cali, tex, fl have large penises.

[MJZiggy]

You can tout the ravens card, but anyone who has any understanding of statistics at all can look at the raw data and decipher that is clearly a statistically anomaly.


Sorry Partial, but this line from you is a complete laugher!!

What is the highest level of formal mathematics or statistics you have completed?

500 level math and statistics from the University of Wisconsin - Madison, where I have my first degree a BS-Chemistry (223 or 227 was 3rd semester calc just so you will understand)

I had two semesters of calc completed upon graduating high school.

I'm still confused. Who has the bigger penis?

At this point, I'd have to say me. Partial, formal education on mathematics and statistics doesn't do you a damn bit of good if you're too lazy to actually look up and actually analyze the raw data instead of making assumptions about it. At best, you're making a guess based on what you think the data would support, but until you look, you're just as clueless as us English majors...

[pbmax]

I think Partial has a point re: Kansas vs. California insofar as we're comparing statewide competition. Nelson having the High School State Track Record in the 100m would be more impressive if he held it in California than if he held it in Kansas. Since there are more people in California, so you have a lot more competition to be the very best at something.
Still agreed, but there is one more factor. There are MANY more football programs in California. Nelson making the team (walkon or not) in a state with fewer spots also counts for something. Of course, this doesn't take into account the number of slots filled by out of state recruits.

[Lurker64]

What is the highest level of formal mathematics or statistics you have completed?

Ooh, is this an open question? I have a master's degree in Mathematics and I'm ABD working on a PhD thesis about adapting Robinson's model of Brownian motion as a random walk on hyperreal coin-flipping space to operator theory to construct a tensor-free model of Free Brownian Motion using infinite random matrices (as opposed to Voiculescu's Fock Space model.)

The last math class I took, I think, was a course on the K-Theory of C* Algebras. Either that or a course on L-functions (I hate L-functions), I forget.

[SkinBasket]

What is the highest level of formal mathematics or statistics you have completed?

Ooh, is this an open question? I have a master's degree in Mathematics and I'm ABD working on a PhD thesis about adapting Robinson's model of Brownian motion as a random walk on hyperreal coin-flipping space to operator theory to construct a tensor-free model of Free Brownian Motion using infinite random matrices (as opposed to Voiculescu's Fock Space model.)

The last math class I took, I think, was a course on the K-Theory of C* Algebras.

Dork.


PS.
I used to love math. She never loved me back.

[MJZiggy]

Lurker, will you do my taxes next year? I need someone who can add...

[SkinBasket]

Fuck, you are dumb.

No shit? I already made that clear in this thread. Now let's talk some pointy-ball!!!

[ThunderDan]

You can tout the ravens card, but anyone who has any understanding of statistics at all can look at the raw data and decipher that is clearly a statistically anomaly.


Sorry Partial, but this line from you is a complete laugher!!

What is the highest level of formal mathematics or statistics you have completed?

500 level math and statistics from the University of Wisconsin - Madison, where I have my first degree a BS-Chemistry (223 or 227 was 3rd semester calc just so you will understand)

I had two semesters of calc completed upon graduating high school.

I'm still confused. Who has the bigger penis?

I just answered the boys question with the truth. I am sure he was ready to try and rub it in my face if I only had one semester of stats or calc.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I think Partial has a point re: Kansas vs. California insofar as we're comparing statewide competition. Nelson having the High School State Track Record in the 100m would be more impressive if he held it in California than if he held it in Kansas. Since there are more people in California, so you have a lot more competition to be the very best at something.
Still agreed, but there is one more factor. There are MANY more football programs in California. Nelson making the team (walkon or not) in a state with fewer spots also counts for something. Of course, this doesn't take into account the number of slots filled by out of state recruits.

PB,

Go back and read my posts.

Jordy's track numbers would put him in the top 10 in Cali.

The elite, for the most part, are pretty damn close..regardless of state.

[Deputy Nutz]

You are all gay nerds. Even Ziggy.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Jones has strength, but he hasn't shown that he can use that strength to muscle corners for the ball AND make yards after contact. Jones hasn't shown the ability to make yards after contact that his strength would lead you to believe. There are two things that I think Jones has to dramatically improve on. The first is focus. For a guy with such good hands, he drops too many balls. He lacks focus at times. The second is yards after contact. He goes down too easily too often. With his strength, he should be better at that.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/51639017.html


Jones immediately passes the eyeball test. Yet, for all his muscle and bulk, he isn't physical either running after the catch or blocking.

The strength and softness of Jones' hands have been evident by how he tries to catch almost every pass away from his body. Nevertheless, he has dropped 12 of 117 passes in two seasons, a rate of 10.3% that is unacceptable.

[SnakeLH2006]

Jones in a fucking heartbeat. He made plays to WIN games. Put up much better numbers in his rook season. I like Jordy, but this man-love needs to stop. This is like White Lightning 2. Prove something Jordy, else get off the wagon. JJ is twice the player in the NFL than Jordy has proven thus far.

Maybe I'm wrong...maybe Jordy is the best WHITE WR in the NFL right now....but JJ is so much better right now till stats/games say otherwise....ALWAYS like JJ. Want to like Jordy, but he hasn't done one thing to make Snake like him, unlike JJ. JJ is a beast, Jordy is just a guy so far.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Maybe I'm wrong...maybe Jordy is the best WHITE WR in the NFL right now....but JJ is so much better right now till stats/games say otherwise....ALWAYS like JJ. Want to like Jordy, but he hasn't done one thing to make Snake like him, unlike JJ. JJ is a beast, Jordy is just a guy so far.

We must have watched different guys last year. Thinking about white WRs, I'd have to give the nod to Wes Welker. Different player than Nelson though. The season can't come soon enough, but I'll give my observation again. If you want to compare Nelson to a white WR, I see him becoming something similar to Kevin Walter, and that's a pretty good player. I don't see the stud that you see in Jones (nor do I see it in Jordy really). He makes some good plays, but he won't last in the league very long dropping over 10% of the balls thrown his way and not using his strength to the utmost. On the plus side, although he lacks deep speed, he should have good hands and good yards after the catch ability. From the article, the coaches apparently were more impressed with Nelson during the offseason. Should be one of the better battles in camp though.

[Gunakor]

Prove something Jordy, else get off the wagon. JJ is twice the player in the NFL than Jordy has proven thus far.

What is the first and most important job asked of a wide receiver? Catch the ball. All other things aside, let's focus on that, since a WR isn't doing a whole lot when he drops that many passes thrown in his direction. Jordy Nelson dropped just one pass in 50 some balls thrown his way last year. Just one. Jones and his 10% drop rate has some proving of his own to do, or he'll quickly be passed on the depth chart by a guy who doesn't drop the ball.

A drop rate of under 2% in one's rookie season proves a great deal. What has Jones proven in his 2 years that's of greater value than that? TWICE the player Nelson is? How so?

[SkinBasket]

A drop rate of under 2% in one's rookie season proves a great deal. What has Jones proven in his 2 years that's of greater value than that? TWICE the player Nelson is? How so?

The darker the berry the sweeter the juice?

[Packgator]

I see Nelson becoming the #2........and much sooner than later. Is this the year Driver drops to #3 (or lower)? I hope not......but when that day comes Nelson will be a very capable replacement.

[DonHutson]

Who has the bigger penis?

There's the question that you can be sure raised it's ugly head (no pun intended) every time an innocuous, just passing the time of day thread explodes to 174 pages.

[MJZiggy]

You are all gay nerds. Even Ziggy.

Quit teasing Bretsky like that!

[Fritz]

What, Bretsky likes nerdy chicks??? :D

[Waldo]

For how much "drops" are talked up regarding Jones (even that BS crap in the JSO), there is one measure of "hands" that Jones excels at. Catch%, or Receptions/Targets, not Drops/Target, the JSO's measure.

James Jones catches passes (or gets his hands on and gets reasonably close to catching) that no other Packer can hope to catch (Finley though is surprisingly good as well). His ball tracking ability is ridiculously good (he find and pinpoint landing spots very fast relative to the average WR), and he has outstanding body control, being able and willing to wildly contort his body and leap to get his hands in position, and can catch well with his hands away from his body. I really don't give a crap if Jones dropped a few more % of passes than Jennings did, several of them Jennings would not have seen or would have watched sail away, while not getting even close enough to catching it for his miss to be considered a "drop". WR's like Jones are QB's best friends, they can catch any pass no matter how shitty, as long as it gets near him. The increased level of difficulty of some of them leads to a higher drop rate.

Last year Jennings' drop rate was 6.52% of the balls thrown to him, Jones' was 13.8% of the balls thrown to him. Last year James caught 69.0% of the passes Aaron threw to him, Greg caught 60.6% of the passes Aaron threw to him. You decide which is more important to the team. This trend held true in 2007 too, Jones led the WR's in catch %.

Jones and Jordy are very different players. One thing to note about them that has been brought up by professional draft scouts, neither of them participated in pre-draft speed camps. While they may (probably) worked on their own, neither participated in a targeted workout program designed to help them run a fast 40, or perform well on the other drills. Scouts (and teams) weight and value this differently, TT seems to put a bit of emphasis on it.

Jones is more quick than fast (though his top gear is decent, not a burner though), and knows how to use his body and strength to get off the line and shield the throwing lane from defenders. He is taller, but not what would be considered a tall guy. His threat as a deep guy comes from immediately burning the coverage at the line, and he can cut very fast. His play is like an overall very fast guy that only has a 4 speed transmission. And he is exceptionally good at catching passes (even if his deceptive drop rate may say otherwise).

Jordy OTOH is more fast than quick. Sticking with the transmission theme, he is like a 6 speed with a shot first gear. His quick acceleration isn't that great, but once he gets up to top speed, his top gear is faster than everybody else's. He isn't really a precision cutter. I did see him however modulate his body language in an attempt to get open, Greg didn't really start until his 2nd year, and none of our other WR's do it (switching from nonchalant to determined mid-route, etc...). His hands are like glue, once the ball touches his hands, he has it, but he isn't nearly as good as James at going and getting tough passes. His is easy for Aaron to find however, and built for success in the red zone.

IMO Jones is built to be one of the best slot WR's in the league. Jordy is built to excel at full time flanker (the reason he cost more draft capitol) (Greg and Driver are both prototype split end WR's, Greg moreso). Currently Driver is a slot/flanker hybrid, he plays slot in 3+ WR sets and flanker in 2 WR sets. Jones and Jordy cover both those skill sets. Jones could play flanker, but he just isn't built for success like Jordy, likewise Jordy just isn't built to excel in the slot like Jones.

Which will see the field first as a starter (our 3rd WR pretty much is a starter)? Nelson IMO. It is about time to make Driver a full time slot WR. He kinda sucks at flanker, and does his best work in the slot. We usually run on 2 WR sets anyway.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Last year Jennings' drop rate was 6.52% of the balls thrown to him, Jones' was 13.8% of the balls thrown to him. Last year James caught 69.0% of the passes Aaron threw to him, Greg caught 60.6% of the passes Aaron threw to him. You decide which is more important to the team. This trend held true in 2007 too, Jones led the WR's in catch %.

Isn't this misleading if you aren't taking into consideration where the catches are being made (e.g. did Jennings have a bigger percentage of deep balls thrown his way, where you'd expect the catch % to be lower)?

[Scott Campbell]

Last year Jennings' drop rate was 6.52% of the balls thrown to him, Jones' was 13.8% of the balls thrown to him. Last year James caught 69.0% of the passes Aaron threw to him, Greg caught 60.6% of the passes Aaron threw to him. You decide which is more important to the team. This trend held true in 2007 too, Jones led the WR's in catch %.

Isn't this misleading if you aren't taking into consideration where the catches are being made (e.g. did Jennings have a bigger percentage of deep balls thrown his way, where you'd expect the catch % to be lower)?


I think Jennings presents a bit smaller target. And I think Waldo is making the case that Jones body control allows him to get his hands on a greater number of poorly thrown balls. I buy that.

I can't help thinking about Jones and the 2 fumbles against the Bears in 07. He's got to get that under control.

[Waldo]

Last year Jennings' drop rate was 6.52% of the balls thrown to him, Jones' was 13.8% of the balls thrown to him. Last year James caught 69.0% of the passes Aaron threw to him, Greg caught 60.6% of the passes Aaron threw to him. You decide which is more important to the team. This trend held true in 2007 too, Jones led the WR's in catch %.

Isn't this misleading if you aren't taking into consideration where the catches are being made (e.g. did Jennings have a bigger percentage of deep balls thrown his way, where you'd expect the catch % to be lower)?

Sure, I guess it is a little, Jones catches a fair # of deep balls too though. Greg is OK at catching passes, but he drops a few and isn't a "tough catch" guy. If the QB throws a ball to Greg that is darn near uncatchable, Greg won't catch it. I don't know that there is a Packer fan that would argue otherwise.

Perhaps Jordy is a better example. Ultra low drop rate. He worked the same area of the field that Jones often does (actually more underneath, Jones' YPR was identical to Driver's in '08 and darn close in '07, Jordy's was lower) Jones' catch % was 69.0% in '08, Jordy's was 62.3%.

[Waldo]

I can't help thinking about Jones and the 2 fumbles against the Bears in 07. He's got to get that under control.

He's fumbled 3 balls in his career and lost 2 of them, both in the same game. It isn't like they were dropped, they were ripped from his arms by the best DB in the NFL at ripping balls from guys arms.

I just can't buy that something is a problem that occurred in a small part (a quarter) of one game, during a guys rookie year. He's played in about 100 quarters of professional football, and fumbled twice in one quarter, within 3:40 on the clock of each other.

Fans latch on to one bad thing like an obsession. Jones could go through his whole career and never fumble again, 5 years from now people would still be harping on his fumbling problem. He had a bad 5 minutes thanks to Peanut.

It isn't just body control. It isn't always easy for WR's to find the football. Jones is really good at this, and being able to project the landing spot of a ball just leaving the QB's hands.

[Scott Campbell]

Fans latch on to one bad thing like an obsession.


Understandably - it was against the Bears, and his poor play single-handedly took them out of that game IMO. After that happened, he didn't seem to be the same player. And his number seemed to get called much less. And then he spent most of last year dinged up.

IMO, he still hasn't fully rebounded from that one outing.

[Scott Campbell]

Sure, I guess it is a little, Jones catches a fair # of deep balls too though. Greg is OK at catching passes, but he drops a few and isn't a "tough catch" guy. If the QB throws a ball to Greg that is darn near uncatchable, Greg won't catch it. I don't know that there is a Packer fan that would argue otherwise.

Perhaps Jordy is a better example. Ultra low drop rate. He worked the same area of the field that Jones often does (actually more underneath, Jones' YPR was identical to Driver's in '08 and darn close in '07, Jordy's was lower) Jones' catch % was 69.0% in '08, Jordy's was 62.3%.



I agree on Jennings. He seems to routinely get great separation.

[Waldo]

Fans latch on to one bad thing like an obsession.


Understandably - it was against the Bears, and his poor play single-handedly took them out of that game IMO. After that happened, he didn't seem to be the same player. And his number seemed to get called much less. And then he spent most of last year dinged up.

IMO, he still hasn't fully rebounded from that one outing.

Drive 1 - GB TD (7-0)
Drive 2 - Chi Punt
Drive 3 - Jones Fumble
Drive 4 - Chi Punt
Drive 5 - Jones Fumble
---end of Q1---
Drive 6 - Chi Punt
Drive 7 - GB Punt
Drive 8 - Bears TD (7-7)

Play by play (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay?game_id=29269&displayPage=tab_play_by_play&season=2007&week=REG5&override=true)

Saying Jones "single handedly took them out of the game" is a bit of a stretch. GB led through both of them, Chi got zero points off of them, and GB had another chance after both of them before Chicago had a drive that put points on the board.

GB was up 17-7 at the half. GB did nothing in the second half and let Chicago put 20 on the board, with Brett throwing 2 interceptions in the second half, including one that hit Urlacher in the numbers with no WR in the area.

[Scott Campbell]

Saying Jones "single handedly took them out of the game" is a bit of a stretch.


That's why I said IMO.

[CaptainKickass]

So after reading all of this, and recalling the games...

I'm still undecided as to which player I like better.

Seems like it's one of those "happy problems" where you have 2 very qualified guys with slightly different strengths battling for the same position. Oh woe is the Pack for having such a problem.

I'm pretty damn sure it will sort itself out this season. Either by performance or "other".


.

[sharpe1027]

Last year Jennings' drop rate was 6.52% of the balls thrown to him, Jones' was 13.8% of the balls thrown to him. Last year James caught 69.0% of the passes Aaron threw to him, Greg caught 60.6% of the passes Aaron threw to him. You decide which is more important to the team. This trend held true in 2007 too, Jones led the WR's in catch %.


I am a Jones fan, but I am not sure I buy this entirely. It would seem that many factors that have little to do with the WR go into that stat. Did they play the same positions, come in during the same situations or run similiar routes? I would think that all of those factors contribute as much or more than Jones' ability to get to badly-thrown balls.

I would also say that Jennings has quicker feet than Jones. So given the same off-the-mark pass, Jones may have to stretch and make an outstanding catch when Jennings could get himself into position and make the catch look relatively ordinary.

That being said, I have to agree that what I saw on the field was Jones consistently making plays that threaten the defense, whereas Nelson's catches were more mundane plays.

[Waldo]

Last year Jennings' drop rate was 6.52% of the balls thrown to him, Jones' was 13.8% of the balls thrown to him. Last year James caught 69.0% of the passes Aaron threw to him, Greg caught 60.6% of the passes Aaron threw to him. You decide which is more important to the team. This trend held true in 2007 too, Jones led the WR's in catch %.


I am a Jones fan, but I am not sure I buy this entirely.

If you don't than why are you a Jones fan? It is by far his best trait, the one thing that he is truly elite at. The guy can catch garbage, stuff that none of our other WR's have a chance to catch.

Like I said:

Perhaps Jordy is a better example. Ultra low drop rate. He worked the same area of the field that Jones often does (actually more underneath, Jones' YPR was identical to Driver's in '08 and darn close in '07, Jordy's was lower), Jones' catch % was 69.0% in '08, Jordy's was 62.3%.

[Scott Campbell]

...........whereas Nelson's catches were more mundane plays.


They were mundane plays, but not necessarily mundane situations. I'll leave it to the stat guys to correct me, but it seemed that Jordy was a frequent 3rd down target. Moving the chains may not be sexy, but it's critical to sustaining drives.

[sharpe1027]

If you don't than why are you a Jones fan? It is by far his best trait, the one thing that he is truly elite at. The guy can catch garbage, stuff that none of our other WR's have a chance to catch.

Like I said:

Perhaps Jordy is a better example. Ultra low drop rate. He worked the same area of the field that Jones often does (actually more underneath, Jones' YPR was identical to Driver's in '08 and darn close in '07, Jordy's was lower), Jones' catch % was 69.0% in '08, Jordy's was 62.3%.

Meh, I like him for the reasons I said, he threatens the defense more with big plays getting open downfield or making a play with the ball in his hand. I disagree that his garbage catching is necessarily his best trait, but I think you are perfectly reasonable to believe it is. Perhaps, though, you can see my point that it is also reasonable to believe that it is not, far and way, his best trait.

I guess my point is this. I think that the stat is simply too weakly correlated to prove or disprove your point, i.e., there too many variables unaccounted for to claim that all things being equal, Jones would catch more balls. If my math is correct, two bad passes by Rodgers last year would have resulted in Jones also being at 62%. Moreover, it could be any combination of bad passes, wrong routes, great defensive plays or other things I can't think of right now. Odds are, all things were probably not equal.

I realize you made some general observations about routes and such, but we are talking about a difference of only two passes. Maybe those two passes were the result of Jones making great plays on the ball where Nelson would not have; however, maybe it was just a better pass by Rodgers.

[sharpe1027]

...........whereas Nelson's catches were more mundane plays.


They were mundane plays, but not necessarily mundane situations. I'll leave it to the stat guys to correct me, but it seemed that Jordy was a frequent 3rd down target. Moving the chains may not be sexy, but it's critical to sustaining drives.

Absolutely. IMO, the big question is whether or not you believe that had Jones been given the same oppurtunity, he would have made those 3rd down plays. If so, Jones should be the clear choice. If not, then you have two complimentary players, but not a single complete player.

[Scott Campbell]

...........whereas Nelson's catches were more mundane plays.


They were mundane plays, but not necessarily mundane situations. I'll leave it to the stat guys to correct me, but it seemed that Jordy was a frequent 3rd down target. Moving the chains may not be sexy, but it's critical to sustaining drives.

Absolutely. IMO, the big question is whether or not you believe that had Jones been given the same oppurtunity, he would have made those 3rd down plays. If so, Jones should be the clear choice. If not, then you have two complimentary players, but not a single complete player.


I got the impression that Jordy's play kept Jones from being able to get back on the field much.

[Patler]

Jones and Nelson will be receivers "3a" and "3b". If both are healthy, I don't expect either one to separate himself form the other. Each will be the third receiver in some situations.

[Scott Campbell]

Jones and Nelson will be receivers "3a" and "3b". If both are healthy, I don't expect either one to separate himself form the other. Each will be the third receiver in some situations.



As it stands now, I could see that. But 2nd year receivers often make a big strides. I'd almost rate both of them as 2nd year wideouts, as Jones season seemed kind of wasted last year.

[sharpe1027]

I got the impression that Jordy's play kept Jones from being able to get back on the field much.

I feel that they may have lost confidence after the Bears game and his subesquent injuries gave Nelson the oppurtunity to show he was more than adequate. Rather than pull a solid performer mid-season for a guy that you are unsure of, they left things as they were.

I expect that Jones be given more chances in preseason than he was in the middle of the year. Just a guess.

[Waldo]

If you don't than why are you a Jones fan? It is by far his best trait, the one thing that he is truly elite at. The guy can catch garbage, stuff that none of our other WR's have a chance to catch.

Like I said:

Perhaps Jordy is a better example. Ultra low drop rate. He worked the same area of the field that Jones often does (actually more underneath, Jones' YPR was identical to Driver's in '08 and darn close in '07, Jordy's was lower), Jones' catch % was 69.0% in '08, Jordy's was 62.3%.

Meh, I like him for the reasons I said, he threatens the defense more with big plays getting open downfield or making a play with the ball in his hand. I disagree that his garbage catching is necessarily his best trait, but I think you are perfectly reasonable to believe it is. Perhaps, though, you can see my point that it is also reasonable to believe that it is not, far and way, his best trait.

I guess my point is this. I think that the stat is simply too weakly correlated to prove or disprove your point, i.e., there too many variables unaccounted for to claim that all things being equal, Jones would catch more balls. If my math is correct, two bad passes by Rodgers last year would have resulted in Jones also being at 62%. Moreover, it could be any combination of bad passes, wrong routes, great defensive plays or other things I can't think of right now. Odds are, all things were probably not equal.

I realize you made some general observations about routes and such, but we are talking about a difference of only two passes. Maybe those two passes were the result of Jones making great plays on the ball where Nelson would not have; however, maybe it was just a better pass by Rodgers.

This is actually not an observation based on any stats, it just so happens that stats show it. I always noticed Favre's brand of shit that was supposedly "accurate", and pointed it out to people, and probably notice it quicker because I'm so used to looking at/for it, while everybody else was busy fawning over god, I saw the old man slipping (the decline has been noticable to me since ~2001).

It isn't always easy to identify an inaccurate pass off the television. A ball is either defended, caught, dropped, or misses. A lot more than just the misses are inaccurate. WR's adjust to errant passes. Some are better than others at it. Too many times fans would go gaga over a "great" play by Favre, when in reality he missed by about 10 yards, his WR made a huge adjustment to get to the ball and catch it. Who really made the great play?

Ferguson was actually a lot better than fans remember. With a well thrown ball he was fairly reliable, he was a good blocker and pretty good at getting open. He couldn't catch a crappy pass to save his life, his adjustment ability was terrible. Favre and his coaches though hadn't yet figured out what areas of the field he sucked on, it took MM for that, too often Ferguson was in the area where Brett sucked.

Jones has made some crazy good catches in his time in GB. Huge adjustments that just were not supposed to be caught. Some of the stuff he gets his hands on just isn't supposed to happen.

How many WR's other than Jones have people seen make catches while jumping/laying out for a pass in GB lately?

[CaptainKickass]

Ferguson was actually a lot better than fans remember.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Rolling on the floor, spitting coffee out my nose at that one.

Waldo - You're contributions here have been more than educational for me. And now you wanna branch out into comedy too?

Hahahahaha!

Ok, ok

In all seriousness - I do remember a game, a MNF Game I believe, when Fergie was still in the lineup, where Madden or Al cited some incrdible stat that the Pack was 6-0 when Robert Ferguson catches a TD pass.

I'm no stat guy - but I'm pretty sure he didn't catch much more than 6 TD's. Or is that just a reflection of my lack of faith in that guy? What was his nickname again? "Alligator arms" or something?


.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I'm not necessarily buying this. A little bit, but not totally. If he started and had to run every route that Jennings has to make against the same level of competition, I doubt that catch % would remain that high.

The other part of this is: he needs to make some great catches because he's not as good at getting in position to make the catch more easily. Reminds me of a centerfielder in baseball who makes a lot of difficult catches, but he has to because he gets a poor jump, is slow, or isn't great at judging the ball in the air. Jennings is elite at that.

I'm not trying to knock Jones too much. I think he has shown he could have great hands, if he quits dropping the easy ones. I think he lacks concentration at times. He also can do some things after the catch. He makes sharp cuts with the ball in his hands--although I think he should be better breaking tackles for how strong he is. If he can utilize his strength a bit more and eliminate the drops, he can be very effective.

I don't buy the insinuation that other guys can't make tough catches either. It might be that Jones just gets more opportunities to make tough catches because of the other factors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIUu-nLx0lw

[sharpe1027]

This is actually not an observation based on any stats, it just so happens that stats show it.

Do they? While the stats are indeed consistent with your observation, I just don't think they add much.



Jones has made some crazy good catches in his time in GB. Huge adjustments that just were not supposed to be caught. Some of the stuff he gets his hands on just isn't supposed to happen.

How many WR's other than Jones have people seen make catches while jumping/laying out for a pass in GB lately?

Not going to argue this, as Jones has shown incredible ability to catch the ball away from his body. I do think that Jennings is better at adjusting to a poorly thrown ball by changing his route. One play stands out. I remember Jones getting turned around and looking pretty foolish trying to adjust to a terribly thrown Favre pass deep down the field.

[CaptainKickass]

I'm not necessarily buying this. A little bit, but not totally. If he started and had to run every route that Jennings has to make against the same level of competition, I doubt that catch % would remain that high.

The other part of this is: he needs to make some great catches because he's not as good at getting in position to make the catch more easily. Reminds me of a centerfielder in baseball who makes a lot of difficult catches, but he has to because he gets a poor jump, is slow, or isn't great at judging the ball in the air. Jennings is elite at that.

I'm not trying to knock Jones too much. I think he has shown he could have great hands, if he quits dropping the easy ones. I think he lacks concentration at times. He also can do some things after the catch. He makes sharp cuts with the ball in his hands--although I think he should be better breaking tackles for how strong he is. If he can utilize his strength a bit more and eliminate the drops, he can be very effective.

I don't buy the insinuation that other guys can't make tough catches either. It might be that Jones just gets more opportunities to make tough catches because of the other factors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIUu-nLx0lw

Harv -

That Youtube vid is pretty cool, although the Queen music is a bit "flamboyant". The best part of the vid is the ending:

"Thanks for not sucking like everyone else did"

Nobody's ready to call this kid "Jerry Rice". If he can put up highlights like that vid, except in the NFL - then he might be pretty damn good. But there's no comparing him to the GOAT at this point.

Is it football season yet?

[Scott Campbell]

Ferguson was actually a lot better than fans remember.


I remember Ferguson being awful as a rookie, but then progressing to adequate and more. And then he took that horrific shot from Darien over the middle, and they guy never looked the same.

[Waldo]

Ferguson was actually a lot better than fans remember.


I remember Ferguson being awful as a rookie, but then progressing to adequate and more. And then he took that horrific shot from Darien over the middle, and they guy never looked the same.

He got the yips. But he wasn't bad out near the edges with well thrown balls.

Brett Favre doesn't throw many well thrown balls out near the edges.

[Patler]

He got the yips. But he wasn't bad out near the edges with well thrown balls.

Brett Favre doesn't throw many well thrown balls out near the edges.

Anybody who lasts any time at that level can catch a well thrown ball. It hardly makes Ferguson better than we remember. In fact, it makes him just as I do remember, a guy that made the easy catch, who would take a hit; until he got the big one. The fact that he wasn't able to get over that hit, even as bad as it was, detracts from his "legacy". Others get over big hits, even if it takes a season to do it. Ferguson never did.

[MichiganPackerFan]

I even got myself a Ferguson jersey before the season of the Darius hit. He certainly never recovered from that shot. Prior to that he was fearless over the middle. While the NFL is certainly violent, I wonder how many players have to recover from a shot like that, which resulted in not only being knocked unconscious, but also temporarily paralysis.

[Bretsky]

I even got myself a Ferguson jersey before the season of the Darius hit. He certainly never recovered from that shot. Prior to that he was fearless over the middle. While the NFL is certainly violent, I wonder how many players have to recover from a shot like that, which resulted in not only being knocked unconscious, but also temporarily paralysis.



Are you drunk again ? :lol: :wink:

Fergie was Da Fraud Before and After the hit

[bobblehead]

I've seen driver take some sick hits...granted never was paralyzed. Eric Dickerson lost feeling and movement for about 10 minutes once and came back and was still awesome. Fergie flashed brilliance at times, but so did Frankie Neal....if I remember the quote after he scored a game winning touchdown was "Mr. All Pro....Albeerrrtt Lewis" Yea, keep talking frankie.

[MichiganPackerFan]

Are you drunk again ? :lol: :wink:

Fergie was Da Fraud Before and After the hit

No - Unfortunately they frown upon that at work. Bastards.

:glug:

I guess I always have a weak spot for the try-hard underdog and love seeing a player who everyone counted out tremendously exceed expectations and perform at a high level. I had hoped that Ferguson would be one of these, but I was certainly wrong on that!

[SnakeLH2006]

Fergie was Da Fraud Before and After the hit

Yeppers...Whoever made Fergy jerseys out to be fired. No really. No place for that guy in the Packer Jersey Authority Department. I'm still waiting on my TJ Rubley jersey I ordered a decade ago. :shock:

Other than the Fergie mention by Waldo...Snake is all aboard the Waldo train that JJ makes plays happen (crappy passes, big plays) vs. catching catchable balls and a nil YAC (I read somewhere maybe JSO that it was an abysmal 2 yards after contact) for Jordy. I wanna like Jordy, but I don't see the big play guy. So far, I've seen a faster Ruvell Martin out of Jordy. A guy who makes some easy Red Zone catches, but no plays. Hope I'm wrong as maybe he gets better in year 2.


I have to agree that what I saw on the field was Jones consistently making plays that threaten the defense, whereas Nelson's catches were more mundane plays.

...Yep...about like that...Moving the chains is fine, but those guys don't deserve to start, as they don't do much for elite teams as a #2. Welker is a beast for what he does. Jordy has a long way to go to get there though (albeit totally diff. type of WR). If JJ is healthy, he outta get the nod, as his ability to stretch the D and make plays out of nothing take stature over a sure catch and get tackled....Sanjay Beach comes to mind. :shock:

[HarveyWallbangers]

Apparently, the coaches even have a hard time choosing which player is better.
:D

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/59088257.html


Tight battle

The coaching staff has been trying to divvy up snaps between wide receiver James Jones and Jordy Nelson, who are behind Greg Jennings and Donald Driver.

"Jordy's really come on," McCarthy said. "He had a heck of a camp the last two weeks.

"I don't have a problem with either one of them."

[Waldo]

It is a problem that it doesn't suck to have.

Before he got dinged, Jones looked better than ever. He' even quicker than I remember. He could be a superstar a la Boldin if he wants to be. Big strong guy that plays like a big strong guy, with great hands. Jones has special in him, if the keys are found to unleash it.


And Jordy, he showed off just how fast he is. He isn't quick at all. That boy's acceleration is slowwww. But once he gets up to top speed, I think that he's the fastest guy on the team. That was 4.35 DRC that he smoked, that couldn't catch him. Jordy has a 6th gear few can match. And he plays like he is tall, unlike Ruvell, the tall guy that played like he was a short guy.

[bobblehead]

It is a problem that it doesn't suck to have.

Before he got dinged, Jones looked better than ever. He' even quicker than I remember. He could be a superstar a la Boldin if he wants to be. Big strong guy that plays like a big strong guy, with great hands. Jones has special in him, if the keys are found to unleash it.


And Jordy, he showed off just how fast he is. He isn't quick at all. That boy's acceleration is slowwww. But once he gets up to top speed, I think that he's the fastest guy on the team. That was 4.35 DRC that he smoked, that couldn't catch him. Jordy has a 6th gear few can match. And he plays like he is tall, unlike Ruvell, the tall guy that played like he was a short guy.

I may have bumped heads with you lately waldo, but this is spot on imo. I am thinking big things for jones this year even as a #3. And with jordy, I think the slant is such a good route for him cuz he gets his speed built up just like you say and when he actually catches it he is nearing full speed, and at that point, not many can catch him.

Boldin is a great comparison in that he does the dirty work, and when he collides with a DB, he is rarely the loser. He is a man's man.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

It is a problem that it doesn't suck to have.

Before he got dinged, Jones looked better than ever. He' even quicker than I remember. He could be a superstar a la Boldin if he wants to be. Big strong guy that plays like a big strong guy, with great hands. Jones has special in him, if the keys are found to unleash it.


And Jordy, he showed off just how fast he is. He isn't quick at all. That boy's acceleration is slowwww. But once he gets up to top speed, I think that he's the fastest guy on the team. That was 4.35 DRC that he smoked, that couldn't catch him. Jordy has a 6th gear few can match. And he plays like he is tall, unlike Ruvell, the tall guy that played like he was a short guy.

I may have bumped heads with you lately waldo, but this is spot on imo. I am thinking big things for jones this year even as a #3. And with jordy, I think the slant is such a good route for him cuz he gets his speed built up just like you say and when he actually catches it he is nearing full speed, and at that point, not many can catch him.

Boldin is a great comparison in that he does the dirty work, and when he collides with a DB, he is rarely the loser. He is a man's man.

I like'em both, but Boldin.

When Jones starts catching 8 yarders and blowing DBs up...we can talk. Let's just see him make it thru the season and do well. then we can start comparing him to a pro bowl player and potential HOF.

[Waldo]

Anquan Bolin (6'-1", 217) and Josh Morgan (6'-0", 219) are definitely the best comparisons to Jones (6'-1", 218) in the NFL.

All 3 play a similar game, all 3 are built like a brick shithouse. Similar size, similar quickness and speed (Jones is the fastest of the 3).

Obviously Anquan is a stud compared to the other two, but if James and Josh "break out", it will look a lot like Anquan.

Anquan isn't close to a HOF. It is very rare for a player to make the hall that isn't widely considered to be the best player at his position for at least a year. Anquan isn't even the best on his own team.

[bobblehead]

It is a problem that it doesn't suck to have.

Before he got dinged, Jones looked better than ever. He' even quicker than I remember. He could be a superstar a la Boldin if he wants to be. Big strong guy that plays like a big strong guy, with great hands. Jones has special in him, if the keys are found to unleash it.


And Jordy, he showed off just how fast he is. He isn't quick at all. That boy's acceleration is slowwww. But once he gets up to top speed, I think that he's the fastest guy on the team. That was 4.35 DRC that he smoked, that couldn't catch him. Jordy has a 6th gear few can match. And he plays like he is tall, unlike Ruvell, the tall guy that played like he was a short guy.

I may have bumped heads with you lately waldo, but this is spot on imo. I am thinking big things for jones this year even as a #3. And with jordy, I think the slant is such a good route for him cuz he gets his speed built up just like you say and when he actually catches it he is nearing full speed, and at that point, not many can catch him.

Boldin is a great comparison in that he does the dirty work, and when he collides with a DB, he is rarely the loser. He is a man's man.

I like'em both, but Boldin.

When Jones starts catching 8 yarders and blowing DBs up...we can talk. Let's just see him make it thru the season and do well. then we can start comparing him to a pro bowl player and potential HOF.

I definately agree. Didn't mean to say he is anywhere near Boldins class yet, just that he plays a lot the same. As waldo said, if he breaks out and has a good year it will look a lot like boldin. If it ever gets all the way to where boldin is I'll be thrilled with him.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Jones has size, quickness, and strong hands. He lacks top end speed and concentration (he shouldn't drop as many balls as he does). He also doesn't use his strength to break tackles like he should. He looks much better (healthier) this year, so maybe he's ready to reach his full potential. I think he's a good #3 WR who could turn into a solid starter. I'll state again that I think Nelson reminds me of Kevin Walter. I'm excited to see what this receiving corps can do with a healthy Jones, a more experienced Nelson, and a maturing Jermichael Finley.

[Partial]

Jones has size, quickness, and strong hands. He lacks top end speed and concentration (he shouldn't drop as many balls as he does). He also doesn't use his strength to break tackles like he should. He looks much better (healthier) this year, so maybe he's ready to reach his full potential. I think he's a good #3 WR who could turn into a solid starter. I'll state again that I think Nelson reminds me of Kevin Walter. I'm excited to see what this receiving corps can do with a healthy Jones, a more experienced Nelson, and a maturing Jermichael Finley.

That said, I read that Jones dropped one ball all of camp, leading all receivers in completion %. That's a positive sign fo' sho'. This offense will be disgustingly good this year imo.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Anquan Bolin (6'-1", 217) and Josh Morgan (6'-0", 219) are definitely the best comparisons to Jones (6'-1", 218) in the NFL.

All 3 play a similar game, all 3 are built like a brick shithouse. Similar size, similar quickness and speed (Jones is the fastest of the 3).

Obviously Anquan is a stud compared to the other two, but if James and Josh "break out", it will look a lot like Anquan.

Anquan isn't close to a HOF. It is very rare for a player to make the hall that isn't widely considered to be the best player at his position for at least a year. Anquan isn't even the best on his own team.

Similar game. Bullshit. Jones isn't catching passes right off the LOS and blowing people up. How they are built isn't the issue, it is how they play. Q is the most physical receiver in the game.

HOF: There are many who, previous to Fitz in the playoffs, thought Q was better.

I said potential. And, your eval is well off. Hines ward is a potential HOF..and he is far from being the best in one year. there are way more receivers...game is changing and the criteria is as well.

Q:

Offensive rookie of the year
Pro bowl his rookie year
3x Pro Bowl
Captain

Give him 2 or 3 more pro bowls..and he will be best WR on his NEW team.

Give him 6 more years and he will eclipse Michael Irvin..with worse QBing, worse coaching, etc.

Please stop. You are talking about a pro bowler in his first year, a warrior...and comparing him to Jones...who has accomplished practically nothing and isn't a warrior.

When Jones comes close to Q's average year...80 or so catches, 1000 plus yards, 7 tds...then we can start with comparisons.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

It is a problem that it doesn't suck to have.

Before he got dinged, Jones looked better than ever. He' even quicker than I remember. He could be a superstar a la Boldin if he wants to be. Big strong guy that plays like a big strong guy, with great hands. Jones has special in him, if the keys are found to unleash it.


And Jordy, he showed off just how fast he is. He isn't quick at all. That boy's acceleration is slowwww. But once he gets up to top speed, I think that he's the fastest guy on the team. That was 4.35 DRC that he smoked, that couldn't catch him. Jordy has a 6th gear few can match. And he plays like he is tall, unlike Ruvell, the tall guy that played like he was a short guy.

I may have bumped heads with you lately waldo, but this is spot on imo. I am thinking big things for jones this year even as a #3. And with jordy, I think the slant is such a good route for him cuz he gets his speed built up just like you say and when he actually catches it he is nearing full speed, and at that point, not many can catch him.

Boldin is a great comparison in that he does the dirty work, and when he collides with a DB, he is rarely the loser. He is a man's man.

I like'em both, but Boldin.

When Jones starts catching 8 yarders and blowing DBs up...we can talk. Let's just see him make it thru the season and do well. then we can start comparing him to a pro bowl player and potential HOF.

I definately agree. Didn't mean to say he is anywhere near Boldins class yet, just that he plays a lot the same. As waldo said, if he breaks out and has a good year it will look a lot like boldin. If it ever gets all the way to where boldin is I'll be thrilled with him.

Ok. But they don't even play the same game. Q isn't running the same routes as Jones. Q is a chain mover.

Jones has the same body type, but how they play the game is worlds apart.

Q is a monster. Q can and will play any position. Q has openly lobbied the Cards to let him play defense. Q has said he wants to play DE and rush the passer. Now, would he succeed, i don't know...but, i guarantee you that Jones aint' that type of ballplayer.

I watched Q all the way back in high school. I watched him at FSU where he started as a qB.

Q has been at the top since high school, mr. football in high school. He is a member of the florida high ALL CENTURY TEAM. Do you realize how good you have to be to be on that list?

Q is a football player. Jones is a Wide Receiver.

[RashanGary]

Jones has size, quickness, and strong hands. He lacks top end speed and concentration (he shouldn't drop as many balls as he does). He also doesn't use his strength to break tackles like he should. He looks much better (healthier) this year, so maybe he's ready to reach his full potential. I think he's a good #3 WR who could turn into a solid starter. I'll state again that I think Nelson reminds me of Kevin Walter. I'm excited to see what this receiving corps can do with a healthy Jones, a more experienced Nelson, and a maturing Jermichael Finley.


I recall Jones had really good hands his rookie year. Better than Driver and Jennings.

What he lacked last year was health and it effected his whole game. It's harder to catch when you're afraid to go down. I think you might have a misread on this, Harv.

I guess the proof will be whether he steps it up this year. If it was health, he'll be the playmaker he was as a rookie and then some. If that was a fluke and last years injury season is who he really is, then he'll stink. We'll find out.

[RashanGary]

Here's another way to look at it:

When not injured;


Jones floor is his rookie year

Jones cieling is the sky



Go somewhere in between that and I think you have a #1 reciever. I'm more convinced of Jones now than when this conversation went on last time. Now I can't split the two. Then I liked Jordy's completeness to his game better. Now Jones' "playmaker" evens it out.

[RashanGary]

If I had to make the most optimistic comparisons, I'd do this:

Jones is to Boldin
as
Nelson is to Hines Ward

[Pugger]

What an interesting thread here. Both players bring their own unique talents to the table and we are lucky, frankly, to have both! I'm sure there are several teams out there that would LOVE to have Jones and Nelson as their STARTERS.

[bobblehead]

What an interesting thread here. Both players bring their own unique talents to the table and we are lucky, frankly, to have both! I'm sure there are several teams out there that would LOVE to have Jones and Nelson as their STARTERS.

HOMER post. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but I doubt there is ONE team that would be happy with those 2 as starters at this point.

[BallHawk]

What an interesting thread here. Both players bring their own unique talents to the table and we are lucky, frankly, to have both! I'm sure there are several teams out there that would LOVE to have Jones and Nelson as their STARTERS.

HOMER post. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but I doubt there is ONE team that would be happy with those 2 as starters at this point.

I think the Giants, 49ers, and Jaguars may argue that point.

[Pugger]

And the Bears????

[Tony Oday]

Vikings...

[Partial]

What an interesting thread here. Both players bring their own unique talents to the table and we are lucky, frankly, to have both! I'm sure there are several teams out there that would LOVE to have Jones and Nelson as their STARTERS.

HOMER post. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but I doubt there is ONE team that would be happy with those 2 as starters at this point.

agreed.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

What an interesting thread here. Both players bring their own unique talents to the table and we are lucky, frankly, to have both! I'm sure there are several teams out there that would LOVE to have Jones and Nelson as their STARTERS.

HOMER post. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but I doubt there is ONE team that would be happy with those 2 as starters at this point.

I think the Giants, 49ers, and Jaguars may argue that point.

giants: Smith and Hixon. Nope. Love, no.
Jags: Holt and Troy. Prolly love to have them compete for the other job.
Niners: isaac bruce and Josh morgan. Doubt they would love for them to be their starters. They would love for Crabtree to sign.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Vikings...

Homer post, redux.

Yeah, those two are better and more accomplished than Berrian and Rice.

Ridiculous.

Same crowd that overrates Ruvell.

[Lurker64]

Vikings...

Homer post, redux.

Yeah, those two are better and more accomplished than Berrian and Rice.

I would say that Jones and Nelson don't necessarily compare unfavorably to Rice.

In his rookie year Rice had 31 receptions for 396 yards and 4 TDs.
In his rookie year Jones had 47 receptions for 676 yards and 2 TDs.
In his rookie year Nelson had 33 receptions for 366 yards and 2 TDs.

In an injury marked sophomore season, Rice had 15 receptions for 141 yards and 4 TDs.
In an injury marked sophomore season, Jones had 20 receptions for 274 yards and a Touchdown.

Certainly there are a lot of other factors to consider, but it's not as though it's clear cut.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Vikings...

Homer post, redux.

Yeah, those two are better and more accomplished than Berrian and Rice.

I would say that Jones and Nelson don't necessarily compare unfavorably to Rice.

In his rookie year Rice had 31 receptions for 396 yards and 4 TDs.
In his rookie year Jones had 47 receptions for 676 yards and 2 TDs.
In his rookie year Nelson had 33 receptions for 366 yards and 2 TDs.

In an injury marked sophomore season, Rice had 15 receptions for 141 yards and 4 TDs.
In an injury marked sophomore season, Jones had 20 receptions for 274 yards and a Touchdown.

Certainly there are a lot of other factors to consider, but it's not as though it's clear cut.

That is why i listed as a pair.

Would the vikes like for those two to compete against Rice to win the job? Prolly. See, i'm no homer. But, talking as if Jones or Jordy is the greatest when they haven't proven anything is foolish. The same optimism we have about them is the same the vikes have about Rice.

Would they be justified in saying we would love to have Rice rather than Jones or Jordy...no.

But, that wasn't the statement. It was LOVE to have them as starters..and then someone suggested vikings.

[Gunakor]

Vikings...

Homer post, redux.

Yeah, those two are better and more accomplished than Berrian and Rice.

Ridiculous.

Same crowd that overrates Ruvell.

What about the crowd that overrates Rice?

Edit: sorry, didn't get to the end of the thread to see your response to this already. My apologies.

Jones AND Nelson wouldn't be great starters as a 1-2 combo. But either would make a productive #2 on most NFL squads that have a legitimate #1 already.

[bobblehead]

Vikings...

Homer post, redux.

Yeah, those two are better and more accomplished than Berrian and Rice.

I would say that Jones and Nelson don't necessarily compare unfavorably to Rice.

In his rookie year Rice had 31 receptions for 396 yards and 4 TDs.
In his rookie year Jones had 47 receptions for 676 yards and 2 TDs.
In his rookie year Nelson had 33 receptions for 366 yards and 2 TDs.

In an injury marked sophomore season, Rice had 15 receptions for 141 yards and 4 TDs.
In an injury marked sophomore season, Jones had 20 receptions for 274 yards and a Touchdown.

Certainly there are a lot of other factors to consider, but it's not as though it's clear cut.

My guess is if they had Jones and Jordy that Jones would win the job....but I highly doubt they would love that fact at this point.

If you are saying they would trade their pair for ours you might make a case, but saying they would love to have them as the starters...nah, they would immediately be looking to upgrade while those 2 develope, or patiently wait, but they would in no way love it.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Vikings...

Homer post, redux.

Yeah, those two are better and more accomplished than Berrian and Rice.

Ridiculous.

Same crowd that overrates Ruvell.

What about the crowd that overrates Rice?

Edit: sorry, didn't get to the end of the thread to see your response to this already. My apologies.

Jones AND Nelson wouldn't be great starters as a 1-2 combo. But either would make a productive #2 on most NFL squads that have a legitimate #1 already.

I think even saying #2 on most clubs is an overstatement. Until they actually do something they are what they are...a 3 and 3a. When there is talk about how they are pushing DD...and if one of them should replace DD..then i think it is fair to talk about starting.

[Waldo]

I love this circular logic as it relates to James and Jordy.

They aren't that good until they prove that they are.

Well, there is only one way to do that.

Send DD or GJ to the bench.

Neither plays enough snaps or is high enough in the read progression to become "proven".

A #3 WR has hit 1000 yds 4 times in the history of the NFL.

Unless of course, you grade their effectiveness instead of volume of production.

DD and JJ are virtually indistinguishable via effectiveness stats. Jordy lags behind.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I love this circular logic as it relates to James and Jordy.

They aren't that good until they prove that they are.

Well, there is only one way to do that.

Send DD or GJ to the bench.

Neither plays enough snaps or is high enough in the read progression to become "proven".

A #3 WR has hit 1000 yds 4 times in the history of the NFL.

Unless of course, you grade their effectiveness instead of volume of production.

DD and JJ are virtually indistinguishable via effectiveness stats. Jordy lags behind.

Nope. You make a poor interpretation of what i'm saying.

First, how about a couple of years of production. If you aren't playing on the field you aren't producing. Jones fails on this because of being injured. Jordy fails because he is in his second year.

Second, show me something, show improvement. Jones had some issues his first year. Until he shows that he has improved, it is speculation. Jordy is in the same boat.

Nobody is suggesting 1000 yards, but consecutive 50 catch seasons might be nice. How about playing so well in limited time that you hear the coaches saying "we gotta get him on the field more...or something to that effect"

How about watching them and saying to yourself, wow, maybe Jones should start over DD. Or, jones needs to start so that he can take over..cause DD ain't gonna be around forever. Nobody is saying that. Or, watching and saying..."i wonder what we could get for DD cause we are missing X and i think we have enough at WR to get by, but X position is kinda weak and could be a problem."

please dont' put your values of how to judge a player on me or others. What you value or how you value isn't universal, nor is it the only way.

What i see is rampant homerism regarding our players, but especially our WRs. Ruvell was just the tip of the iceberg.

Fans on this board saying that the Vikes would LOVE to have J&J starting for them is beyond ridiculous. Perhaps this is an area that you can educate some on, instead of focusing on how j&j can prove themselves. :wink:

[Waldo]

I love this circular logic as it relates to James and Jordy.

They aren't that good until they prove that they are.

Well, there is only one way to do that.

Send DD or GJ to the bench.

Neither plays enough snaps or is high enough in the read progression to become "proven".

A #3 WR has hit 1000 yds 4 times in the history of the NFL.

Unless of course, you grade their effectiveness instead of volume of production.

DD and JJ are virtually indistinguishable via effectiveness stats. Jordy lags behind.

Nope. You make a poor interpretation of what i'm saying.

First, how about a couple of years of production. If you aren't playing on the field you aren't producing. Jones fails on this because of being injured. Jordy fails because he is in his second year.

Second, show me something, show improvement. Jones had some issues his first year. Until he shows that he has improved, it is speculation. Jordy is in the same boat.

Nobody is suggesting 1000 yards, but consecutive 50 catch seasons might be nice. How about playing so well in limited time that you hear the coaches saying "we gotta get him on the field more...or something to that effect"

How about watching them and saying to yourself, wow, maybe Jones should start over DD. Or, jones needs to start so that he can take over..cause DD ain't gonna be around forever. Nobody is saying that. Or, watching and saying..."i wonder what we could get for DD cause we are missing X and i think we have enough at WR to get by, but X position is kinda weak and could be a problem."

please dont' put your values of how to judge a player on me or others. What you value or how you value isn't universal, nor is it the only way.

What i see is rampant homerism regarding our players, but especially our WRs. Ruvell was just the tip of the iceberg.

Fans on this board saying that the Vikes would LOVE to have J&J starting for them is beyond ridiculous. Perhaps this is an area that you can educate some on, instead of focusing on how j&j can prove themselves. :wink:

I think that Jones should start over Donald, and that Donald should be our slot WR. He is showing decline at getting open, MM is hiding it somewhat (kinda the same way that MM hid Favre's ever declining piss poor accuracy outside). He is doing the slant stuff and the deep seam stuff, and doing it well, but thing like deep ins, outs, and curls, Don just isn't playing like he used to, he almost never has "separation". Jones looked better than he ever has before in PS, and all it took IMO was a slight improvement in Jones, or slight decline in Don, for Jones to be better than Don. Jones runs a more complete route tree and tends to get more separation than Don. And Don has a bad flag problem that showed up again in PS, on 2 WR base sets we largely run, which has been where Don has been getting flagged.

What do you value in WR's? The ability to catch, the ability to gain yards, and ability to score is what I value.

I've always thought that Ruvell sucked. I don't think that Jordy is very good yet either. Jones is a different story.

I really don't care what you think about them. Don't say wow though, if one of our starters goes down, when Jones comes in and plays just as well. The signs are there if you look for them.

[RashanGary]

Agreed, Waldo. Jones was a playmaker and very consistent with his hands as a rookie. Last years injury hurt, but all signs point to him being 100% back this year.

Something you don't get to watch, that you may not know is that Jones half asses it on ST's. I've paid attention to him at the 10 or so minicamps and TC practices I've been to and there is a "I don't give a shit" attitude that Jones shows when blocking gunners or trying to be a gunner. I don't like it. It seems like he doesn't want to be there, like he thinks he should be strictly offense like Jennings or Driver.

Jones might have a little more raw talent, but I like Jordy's consistency, toughness, completeness and attitude better. This is underrated, but a receiver like Jordy really helps the run game too.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I love this circular logic as it relates to James and Jordy.

They aren't that good until they prove that they are.

Well, there is only one way to do that.

Send DD or GJ to the bench.

Neither plays enough snaps or is high enough in the read progression to become "proven".

A #3 WR has hit 1000 yds 4 times in the history of the NFL.

Unless of course, you grade their effectiveness instead of volume of production.

DD and JJ are virtually indistinguishable via effectiveness stats. Jordy lags behind.

Nope. You make a poor interpretation of what i'm saying.

First, how about a couple of years of production. If you aren't playing on the field you aren't producing. Jones fails on this because of being injured. Jordy fails because he is in his second year.

Second, show me something, show improvement. Jones had some issues his first year. Until he shows that he has improved, it is speculation. Jordy is in the same boat.

Nobody is suggesting 1000 yards, but consecutive 50 catch seasons might be nice. How about playing so well in limited time that you hear the coaches saying "we gotta get him on the field more...or something to that effect"

How about watching them and saying to yourself, wow, maybe Jones should start over DD. Or, jones needs to start so that he can take over..cause DD ain't gonna be around forever. Nobody is saying that. Or, watching and saying..."i wonder what we could get for DD cause we are missing X and i think we have enough at WR to get by, but X position is kinda weak and could be a problem."

please dont' put your values of how to judge a player on me or others. What you value or how you value isn't universal, nor is it the only way.

What i see is rampant homerism regarding our players, but especially our WRs. Ruvell was just the tip of the iceberg.

Fans on this board saying that the Vikes would LOVE to have J&J starting for them is beyond ridiculous. Perhaps this is an area that you can educate some on, instead of focusing on how j&j can prove themselves. :wink:

I think that Jones should start over Donald, and that Donald should be our slot WR. He is showing decline at getting open, MM is hiding it somewhat (kinda the same way that MM hid Favre's ever declining piss poor accuracy outside). He is doing the slant stuff and the deep seam stuff, and doing it well, but thing like deep ins, outs, and curls, Don just isn't playing like he used to, he almost never has "separation". Jones looked better than he ever has before in PS, and all it took IMO was a slight improvement in Jones, or slight decline in Don, for Jones to be better than Don. Jones runs a more complete route tree and tends to get more separation than Don. And Don has a bad flag problem that showed up again in PS, on 2 WR base sets we largely run, which has been where Don has been getting flagged.

What do you value in WR's? The ability to catch, the ability to gain yards, and ability to score is what I value.

I've always thought that Ruvell sucked. I don't think that Jordy is very good yet either. Jones is a different story.

I really don't care what you think about them. Don't say wow though, if one of our starters goes down, when Jones comes in and plays just as well. The signs are there if you look for them.

It is just amazing how you can jump in the middle of a discussion, not address the issue but create another, and then when asked to discuss it....you do everything but address it. :lol:

P.S. I won't need to say Wow, because i haven't said what i think about Jones. All i have addressed is the foolishness of saying some teams would LOVE to have him and Jordy as a starters.

P.P.S. Yeah, it was by accident that i mentioned Don. :roll: