What Caused the Demise of the 60's Packers?

[Fritz]

Okay, I'm soaked in Brett Favre drama and I can't debate any more whether Brady Poppinga will be a starter this year. So . . .

I've been wondering about this. My first memories of specific Packers were the players who were supposed to take over for the Hornungs and McGees and so on. Starr was in his last couple of years, and the Pack had drafted the "Gold Dust Twins," Anderson and, I think, Grabowski.

But that next generation of Packers didn't work out. They had that one 10-4 year, but that was it.

I'm curious about who was the GM in charge of drafts - did that change toward the end of the glory years and is that why the team went south? Was Lombardi also the GM the last few years? Did Lombardi - if he was in charge - start having crappy drafts? Did the team hang on to guys too long?

I'm curious what people out there think happened.

[sheepshead]

Phil Bengsten happened. Good x's and o's guy. Not a great judge of personnel or motivator. Then it took years to cut the "Lombardi Cord". Wasnt until Lindy Infante was that accomplished.

[hoosier]

Loss of Lombardi + aging players that didn't get replaced. The 1967 Pack, the team that beat Dallas in the Ice Bowl and then went on to win SBII, was already a team in decline. They had lost Hornung and Taylor by then, and the guy drafted to replace them, Jim Grabowski (1st round, 1966), never developed into more than a role player. Lombardi's later drafts, dating even back to 1964, really didn't reproduce the great success the team had in the late 50s and early 60s.

[AtlPackFan]

Loss of Lombardi + aging players that didn't get replaced. The 1967 Pack, the team that beat Dallas in the Ice Bowl and then went on to win SBII, was already a team in decline. They had lost Hornung and Taylor by then, and the guy drafted to replace them, Jim Grabowski (1st round, 1966), never developed into more than a role player. Lombardi's later drafts, dating even back to 1964, really didn't reproduce the great success the team had in the late 50s and early 60s.

I read a book awhile back that stated that a lot of the players from those 60s teams were already in place when Lombardi took over. It took his coaching and motivational skills to make them a winner.

[oregonpackfan]

I think Hoosier and AtlPack make strong points that the Packers had a basic core of strong players who just could not get replaced through the draft and trades.

Lombardi had an incredible ability to get the most out of his players through motivation. He was tireless both as a coach and GM.

Toward the end of his regime, I think Lombardi was becoming physically and emotionally drained. His whole life was focused around the Packers. A longtime chain smoker, I suspect the beginning stages of cancer, which was to take his life, began to set in.

Someone also made the good point that the Packers did not seem able to draft the talented players to take the place of aging veterans. They did draft well for a few young players like offensive tackle Gale Gillingham and halfback Donny Anderson, but many of their top draft picks simply did not pan out.

Another reason may be the difficulty is continually being at top form for regular games. After the Packers established themselves at the top team in the NFL, it seemed that every team billed the regular season game against the Packers as their most important game of the season. Even poor teams played their best against the Packers. They played hard and well into the 4th quarter, often to lose in the last 5-10 minutes of the game. I think in the long term, that continual weekly challenge was also draining on the Packers.

In any event, it was a remarkable and glorious stretch, perhaps one of the best ever seen in the history of the NFL.

[Pack-man]

I would say that aging players really caused the demise. Lombardi left IMO because he saw the writing on the wall. This team was getting old and winning was going to be difficult. He left Bengston in a extremely difficult situation. Not only did he have to replace a living legend, but he inherited an old team.

[hoosier]

Loss of Lombardi + aging players that didn't get replaced. The 1967 Pack, the team that beat Dallas in the Ice Bowl and then went on to win SBII, was already a team in decline. They had lost Hornung and Taylor by then, and the guy drafted to replace them, Jim Grabowski (1st round, 1966), never developed into more than a role player. Lombardi's later drafts, dating even back to 1964, really didn't reproduce the great success the team had in the late 50s and early 60s.

I read a book awhile back that stated that a lot of the players from those 60s teams were already in place when Lombardi took over. It took his coaching and motivational skills to make them a winner.


Here is a link to a site that lists every Packer draft; before the 1960s the lists seem to be incomplete. It's quite remarkable how three years in particular--1956, 57 and 58--really provided the core of what would become the great Packer teams of the 1960s. Verne Lewellen was the Packer GM at the time, and presumably played the biggest role in those drafts. Meanwhile, the 1956-58 Packer teams (pre-Lombardi) were truly horrible, and it wasn't until 1959 that those draft picks began to blossom. It does raise the question of how much of that team's success was talent and how much good coaching, motivation (and fear).

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?teamId=1800&type=team

[Packnut]

I don't think it was any one particular reason that caused the down-fall but rather a combination of circumstances. Core players getting older played a part in it. If your looking for one specific reason, an arguement could be made it was Lombardi. The man had a special talent using fear, love, respect and installing an insaitable appetite to win.

The Lombardi era will never again be duplicated in any sport. In the age of parity, no team will ever dominate a decade like the 60's Packers. Not just the winning, but the "mystique" of it all. The combination of opposite spectrum personalities was unique to say the least. The soldier type mentality of a Nitschke. The methodical mentality of a Starr. The fun loving gambling womanizing ways of Hornung and Max. I mean really, has there ever been a more lovable group of players on one team in any sport at any time?

[MadScientist]

The death of scout / draft guru Jack Vainisi in 1960 hurt the flow of studs to the Packers.

http://www.madison.com/tct/sports/packers/448144

[hoosier]

The death of scout / draft guru Jack Vainisi in 1960 hurt the flow of studs to the Packers.

http://www.madison.com/tct/sports/packers/448144

Thank you. I knew I was leaving someone out when giving credit to Lewellen, but I couldn't remember who. Vainisi had the eye for talent, and Lombardi knew what to do with it.

[Waldo]

.....and then Devine was hired as GM, and made the 2nd worst trade in NFL history, setting the franchise in a hole for at least half a decade in the pre FA era.

[Fritz]

Second worst trade? Is the Herschel Walker trade the worst, or the Ricky Williams?

Didn't the Pack give up two first rounders - and more - for Hadl? In my book, that about tops the list. Hadl was 36 years old at the time of the trade. WTF???

Thanks for the info on Vainisi. I've never heard of him before, and it would seem he really was the guy who made the picks. Thus, when Lombardi was doing it on his own, it seems clear he didn't have the drafting skills that Vainisi did.

So Lombardi was dual coach/GM. Did Bengston get this same dual title?

[Waldo]

Second worst trade? Is the Herschel Walker trade the worst, or the Ricky Williams?

Hershel is the worst. That compensation is just ludicrous for a RB. 3 firsts, 3 seconds, a third and a sixth. Loco. Though Hershel was OK for the Vikes.

Hadl was almost just as bad though, 2 firsts, 2 seconds, and a third. But unlike Walker, he was basically a complete bust with the Packers and totally unproductive.

Bad part about it, Devine got extremely close to trading for Archie Manning before he established himself in NO, before an injury shut that down and he had to resort to Hadl.

Ricky cost a whole draft plus a first and third. But Ricky was a pretty good back for the Saints in his time there.

[Packgator]

Vince and age. How do you replace 9 Hall of Famers.....Starr, Horning, Taylor, Adderley, Wood, Nitschke, Davis, Gregg, and Jordan. (Ringo also in the hall.....but he was replaced well enough to win 3 championships without him).

Throw in Dowler, Dale, Kramer, Thurston, Jeter, Robinson, Caffey, and any others I've missed. That's almost every starter.

What a team!

[Fritz]

That's my thinking - that Walker, though clearly past his prime, wasn't as far past his prime as Hadl was. He was done like a piece of toast. I can't fathom how Devine coulda even considered such a ridiculous trade.

I did not know he was thinking about getting Manning. What was he prepared to offer? Any details on that story, Waldo?

Oh, man, that would've been great. A whole different Packer history for the 70's and early 80's, perhaps. And maybe better fortunes for Archie, too. Maybe.

[Freak Out]

Devine was under the sway of Satan and was in place to destroy the Packers....that's the only reason anyone makes that trade. :)

Loco is right...

[cheesner]

That's my thinking - that Walker, though clearly past his prime, wasn't as far past his prime as Hadl was. He was done like a piece of toast. I can't fathom how Devine coulda even considered such a ridiculous trade.

I did not know he was thinking about getting Manning. What was he prepared to offer? Any details on that story, Waldo?

Oh, man, that would've been great. A whole different Packer history for the 70's and early 80's, perhaps. And maybe better fortunes for Archie, too. Maybe.
Walker was around 25 and only in his 5th season when the trade was done. He was coming off an injury and had a big season (1500ish yards) the season before. He wasn't past his prime, it is just that he had not lived up to the college hype at that point, and as a running back, never really did although he did play a long time and had some decent career stats.

As far as Hadl goes, he was a slightly above average at QB. He wasn't worth the trade value even in his prime.

[Pacopete4]

no good thing can last forever

[CaptainKickass]

Great insight, great Packer Football topic for the offseason.

Mad props to Mad Scientist and his Davros avatar for the link to the Vainisi article. I simply didn't even know.

I can only remember as far back as Eddie Lee Ivory - and I was just a whee lad at the time so I find almost everything regarding the Packers Legends and its history posted on here to be of high edu-tainment value.

We learn from the past, that people seldom learn from the past. So if you want to improve your future - pay attention to your history.


The Captain

[Scott Campbell]

The death of scout / draft guru Jack Vainisi in 1960 hurt the flow of studs to the Packers.

http://www.madison.com/tct/sports/packers/448144


It bugged me when I first read it, and it bugs me again today. Did you click on the links to the Packers website, and look him up under their HOF inductees? Pretty pathetic. With somebody like Lee Remmel working for them all those years, you'd think they could do these guys justice. Most of the posts in this forum are more thorough.

http://www.packershalloffame.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=39&Itemid=62

[pbmax]

Walker was around 25 and only in his 5th season when the trade was done. He was coming off an injury and had a big season (1500ish yards) the season before. He wasn't past his prime, it is just that he had not lived up to the college hype at that point, and as a running back, never really did although he did play a long time and had some decent career stats.
Walker was traded in the middle of his fourth year but he was 27 at the time. He had played a couple of years in the USFL for the New Jersey Generals. He was also a traditional SEC I back, and that was not the offense the Vikings were running at the time (Darrin Nelson anyone? Alfred Anderson?).

The Vikings sank like a stone after this trade, and part of it was fitting Walker into the offense. They rebounded after Walker was gone and they added Terry Allen, among a lot of other changes (Dennis Green era).

[falco]

Shit, I would think at this point old age is starting to become a factor.

[Joemailman]

As great a coach as he was, Lombardi didn't draft very well his last 3-4 years.
http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?teamId=1800&type=team The team got old as a result. It also didn't help that the QB situation after Starr was a horror show for may years.

[falco]

As great a coach as he was, Lombardi didn't draft very well his last 3-4 years.
http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?teamId=1800&type=team The team got old as a result. It also didn't help that the QB situation after Starr was a horror show for may years.

I wonder how different scouting was back in the 60s. I have to imagine that back then there were far fewer players that distinguished themselves as athletes, but more had mental toughness and football smarts.

[pbmax]

As great a coach as he was, Lombardi didn't draft very well his last 3-4 years.
http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?teamId=1800&type=team The team got old as a result. It also didn't help that the QB situation after Starr was a horror show for may years.

I wonder how different scouting was back in the 60s. I have to imagine that back then there were far fewer players that distinguished themselves as athletes, but more had mental toughness and football smarts.
The Steeler drafts in the early 70s were successful to a large degree because they sank a lot of money into sending their own scouts to schools, even the smaller ones. They outworked other teams and did not rely on the Blesto Scouting Service, even though they were a charter member. Other teams caught on (while having their heads beaten in for a decade) and the Scouting services became less important except for the Scouting Combine every year.


The NFL's first scouting organization, LESTO (Lions Eagles Steelers Talent Organization), was started in 1963 by the teams mentioned in its name. It became BLESTO when the Bears joined the following year and BLESTO-V when the Vikings came on board later in the decade. It is now known simply as BLESTO despite the Bears and Eagles having gone their separate ways.

CEPO (Central Eastern Personnel Organization), formed in 1964, was a joint endeavor between the Colts (Baltimore-based at the time), the original Browns, the Packers and the Cardinals (St. Louis-based at the time). Its name was changed twice, first to United Scouting after the Falcons, Giants and Redskins joined its ranks, then finally to National Football Scouting in 1983 to avoid any confusion associated with the United States Football League, the NFL's direct competitor that began its operations that year. National Football Scouting is now known simply as The National.

Also formed in 1964 was Troika by the Cowboys, Rams (based in Los Angeles at the time) and 49ers. It was renamed Quadra when the Saints joined in 1967. Quadra is no longer in existence.

[The Leaper]

The death of scout / draft guru Jack Vainisi in 1960 hurt the flow of studs to the Packers.

As I've read...Vainisi wasn't necessarily a guy with a ridiculous eye for talent. He simply developed a SYSTEM before anyone else, one which took the vast amount of information that we see flying around in the spring regarding college players and organized it. He was basically Mel Kiper...but in 1955.

That allowed the Packers to get ahead of the game...but other teams eventually caught up. I think that would've happened even if Vainisi didn't die an untimely death.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Packgator has the right answer. You can't replace Hall of Famers.

I still remember them asking Vince how the team would do with Bengtson. He said the Packers would be all right.

We all knew they wouldn't be because all the stars were aging.

Not only were those teams stocked with Hall of Famers as starters, but they were deep. My memory may be failing me, but guys like Zeke Bratkowski, Elijah Pitts, Tom Moore, Travis Williams, Norm Masters, Bill Curry, Tommy Crutcher, Marv Fleming, and Maxie the Taxi were HUGE factors in backup roles compensating for injuries.

Because of free agency, there will never be another team like them. Sort of like the Yankess of the same era.

[MadScientist]

The death of scout / draft guru Jack Vainisi in 1960 hurt the flow of studs to the Packers.

As I've read...Vainisi wasn't necessarily a guy with a ridiculous eye for talent. He simply developed a SYSTEM before anyone else, one which took the vast amount of information that we see flying around in the spring regarding college players and organized it. He was basically Mel Kiper...but in 1955.

That allowed the Packers to get ahead of the game...but other teams eventually caught up. I think that would've happened even if Vainisi didn't die an untimely death.

I agree up to a point. He did put the Packers ahead of the game and the others were catching up, so it's unlikely that they would have pulled off another multi-HOF draft. But he still did have an eye for talent. He still had to put all the information he gathered together in the right way. I guess I'm saying that the system he developed is a reflection of his eye for talent, extended to an almost mass produced level.

[vince]

Good stuff guys. Thanks. Obviously you gotta have the horses, but I'd attribute half the downfall of the Packers to losing Lombardi.

The foundations of success in football that the Packers dynasty perfected in many ways - dedication, hard work, mastery of fundamentals, understanding and accepting individual responsibilities within the team structure, and of course the skills and ability to execute - was lost after Lombardi left.

I was just born at the time of his death, but like many Packer faithful, I've read the books written about him and watched the numerous video tributes and biographies. In fact, I collect them. His name as my monicker here is my tribute to his contributions not only to Packer history, but to the history of football and of history itself for that matter.

Vince's unique ability as a coach to get maximum performance out of his players - to channel and emit from each player the absolute most he had to give - was perhaps greater than any other coach in history. He used both positive and negative motivational tactics, and he knew how to get a team to gel. His players knew he loved them, and he scared the shit out of them at the same time. He was without a doubt one of the most powerful leaders that has ever lived.

One of Vince's more famous quotes is "Fatigue makes cowards of us all." He made sure that his team would always be the team that was in better shape and had more fight in it at the end of the game. Unlike today, Vince worked his players hard from day 1 of training camp right through the end of the year - particularly at the end of their reign as his core guys were aging. He kept getting his players ready for the "Big Push" over and over throughout the season on their road to their third straight championship in '67. The players recall that every time they thought they had nothing left to give, Vince knew just how to get them to reach deeper to find more and assume their place in history. Playing the games was the easy part.

Off topic, but it's also interesting to note the dramatic cultural changes that have taken place in the generation since that time. OPF made reference to Vince's smoking habit that ultimately took his life. I collect old Packer video clips and I have one where Max McGhee is interviewed in the locker room after a game while getting dressed, and he, and many other players, are smoking a cig right in the locker room, on film while being interviewed. It seems strange to me today to know that was common practice back then. What would happen today if James Jones or AJ Hawk lit up after the game while being interviewed on Packers.com?

[packrulz]

A lot of the problems had to do with Packers management, they had a board of directors and a president, too many chefs spoil the soup. They hired ex-packers like "Scooter" McLean, Bart Starr, & Forrest Gregg to coach and while popular to fans, they weren't X's & O's type coaches. Bob Harlan was elected president and chief executive officer of Packer Corporation, succeeding Judge Parins (June 5, 1989), and they finally had one man running the show, and that's when they started to become competitive again. Interesting with all those losing seasons they sold out every game and had a waiting list for season tickets.

[hoosier]

Off topic, but it's also interesting to note the dramatic cultural changes that have taken place in the generation since that time. OPF made reference to Vince's smoking habit that ultimately took his life. I collect old Packer video clips and I have one where Max McGhee is interviewed in the locker room after a game while getting dressed, and he, and many other players, are smoking a cig right in the locker room, on film while being interviewed. It seems strange to me today to know that was common practice back then. What would happen today if James Jones or AJ Hawk lit up after the game while being interviewed on Packers.com?

Not to nitpick, but didn't Lombardi die of colon cancer?

[vince]

Yes that's right. My bad.


During the summer, the hearty Lombardi suddenly began to feel less than his vigorous self. He was diagnosed with colon cancer in late June 1970, weeks before training camp for his second season in Washington. Although a long-time sufferer of digestive tract problems, Lombardi had avoided going to the doctor for colonoscopies, and this delay may have hastened his illness and eventual death. He was treated at the Georgetown University Hospital, but by the time it was discovered, the cancer had rapidly spread from his colon to his liver, peritoneum, and lymph nodes. The attending oncologist described it as the most virulent case he had ever witnessed (Maraniss, "When Pride Still Mattered"). He died ten weeks later on September 3, 1970 at the age of 57.

[Scott Campbell]

Because of free agency, there will never be another team like them. Sort of like the Yankess of the same era.

I think expansion is even a bigger factor than free agency. I can't remember how many teams were in the league back then, but with 32 teams chasing the trophy, it's much harder to win one now.

[pbmax]

Because of free agency, there will never be another team like them. Sort of like the Yankess of the same era.

I think expansion is even a bigger factor than free agency. I can't remember how many teams were in the league back then, but with 32 teams chasing the trophy, it's much harder to win one now.
And the number of games prior to the Championship Game. Used to be one step, I believe. Now its 3 games minimum.

[Waldo]

I think that the scouting point played a huge role. Over the years, the teams that were the real scouting powerhouses became powerhouses.

I didn't know that the late 50's Packers were pioneers is systemmatic scouting. Makes sense.

The 70's Steelers powerhouses were built on the back of total scouting saturation, especially at smaller black colleges where many of the players were better than their big college counterparts. Back then scholarship was more important to the big colleges than it is today. On some of the real gems they discovered, they purposely "lost" game tape to prevent other teams from seeing their finds so they could draft them later than they should be.

The 70's Cowboys team that dominated was built on the back of a huge scouting department that would look under any rock. They also were pioneers in the use of measurables to evaluate players.

The 80's 49ers really rose to prominence on the back of their scouting department. Another feature of the early WCO incarnations that isn't talked about much is that Walsh was a huge believer in measurables and sought players with particular measurables for a position (he was a big time position prototype drafter, one of the first, and the first real voice to give credence to the Vertical Jump, not the 40, as the best measurable test as it relates to football). He was heavily involved with the creation of the scouting service NFL Draft Scout after retiring from coaching.

If there is any legacy that Ron Wolf created in GB that continues to this day actually on the team is the scouting department that he built. GB today is one of the most dominant presences in the college player scouting arena, and just like Walsh, TT is a position prototype drafter.

[Fritz]

What a great thread! First, re the "which trade was the worst?" - I do think Walker was past his prime, and Waldo's point was that the Q's gave up so much. I still maintain the Hadl trade was worse - a frickin' 36 year old QB? Now Favre is better than Hadl, but when Favre was 36 would anyone have given up that many picks - what was it, two first rounders and a second and third? for even Favre, much less John Hadl?

The Devine-as-Satan theory seems the only logical explanation. I mean, I was 14 when that trade happened and even I knew then that the Packers were screwed for the next several years. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

As for Vainisi, I like the idea mentioned in the thread here that the guy created a system. That makes sense. However, I don't think Mel Kiper is a good comparison. I don't think Mel Kiper created any system. He just tapped into one of the biggest aspect of fan-hood - hope. He understood that the draft is about hope, and he rode that baby, hard.

As for Lombardi, as great as he was, I'm not sure I'm ready to give him motivational sainthood. I think there have been other great, great coaches over the years, and the truth is that had Lombardi not had the talent he did there wouldn't be a trophy named after him. You've got to know what to do with talent, but you've got to have it first.

BTW, what was the sense of the job he was doing in Washington? I know he was only there one year, but was there a sense he was turning things around?

[hoosier]

As for Lombardi, as great as he was, I'm not sure I'm ready to give him motivational sainthood. I think there have been other great, great coaches over the years, and the truth is that had Lombardi not had the talent he did there wouldn't be a trophy named after him. You've got to know what to do with talent, but you've got to have it first.

BTW, what was the sense of the job he was doing in Washington? I know he was only there one year, but was there a sense he was turning things around?

True, but look at what that talent was doing in GB before Lombardi arrived. Tee tee, very little. Granted, the Packers were still a work in progress, but who's to say they would have gelled if Lombardi hadn't come aboard?

As for what he did with the Redskins in 1969, they improved from 5-9 to 7-5-2. According to Wikipedia he also coaxed Sam Huff out of retirement, whipped Sonny Jergensen into shape, diagnosed RB Larry Brown's deafness and set the stage for George Allen's dominant Skins teams in the 70s.

I know, this all sounds like Vince hagiography. Take it with a grain of salt. But at least they're not claiming he made paraplegics walk again.


After stepping down as head coach of the Packers following the 1967 NFL season, a restless Lombardi returned to coaching in 1969 with the Washington Redskins, where he broke a string of 14 losing seasons. The 'Skins would finish with a record of 7-5-2, significant for a number of reasons. Lombardi discovered that rookie running back Larry Brown was deaf in one ear, something that had escaped his parents, schoolteachers, and previous coaches. Lombardi had observed Brown's habit of tilting his head in one direction when listening to signals being called, and walked behind him during drills and said "Larry". When Brown did not answer, the coach asked him to take a hearing exam. Brown was fitted with a hearing aid, and with this correction he would enjoy a successful NFL career. Lombardi was the first coach to get soft-bellied quarterback Sonny Jurgensen, one of the league's premier forward passers, to get into the best condition he could. He coaxed former All-Pro linebacker Sam Huff out of retirement. He even changed the team's uniform design to reflect that of the Packers, with gold and white trim along the jersey biceps, and later a gold helmet. The foundation Lombardi laid was the groundwork for Washington's early 1970s success under former L.A. Rams Coach George Allen. Lombardi had brought a winning attitude to the Nation's Capital, in the same year that the nearby University of Maryland had hired "Lefty" Driesell to coach basketball and the hapless Washington Senators named Ted Williams as manager. It marked a renaissance in sports interest in America's most transient of cities.

[Fritz]

As for Lombardi, as great as he was, I'm not sure I'm ready to give him motivational sainthood. I think there have been other great, great coaches over the years, and the truth is that had Lombardi not had the talent he did there wouldn't be a trophy named after him. You've got to know what to do with talent, but you've got to have it first.

BTW, what was the sense of the job he was doing in Washington? I know he was only there one year, but was there a sense he was turning things around?

True, but look at what that talent was doing in GB before Lombardi arrived. Tee tee, very little. Granted, the Packers were still a work in progress, but who's to say they would have gelled if Lombardi hadn't come aboard?

As for what he did with the Redskins in 1969, they improved from 5-9 to 7-5-2. According to Wikipedia he also coaxed Sam Huff out of retirement, whipped Sonny Jergensen into shape, diagnosed RB Larry Brown's deafness and set the stage for George Allen's dominant Skins teams in the 70s.

I know, this all sounds like Vince hagiography. Take it with a grain of salt. But at least they're not claiming he made paraplegics walk again.


After stepping down as head coach of the Packers following the 1967 NFL season, a restless Lombardi returned to coaching in 1969 with the Washington Redskins, where he broke a string of 14 losing seasons. The 'Skins would finish with a record of 7-5-2, significant for a number of reasons. Lombardi discovered that rookie running back Larry Brown was deaf in one ear, something that had escaped his parents, schoolteachers, and previous coaches. Lombardi had observed Brown's habit of tilting his head in one direction when listening to signals being called, and walked behind him during drills and said "Larry". When Brown did not answer, the coach asked him to take a hearing exam. Brown was fitted with a hearing aid, and with this correction he would enjoy a successful NFL career. Lombardi was the first coach to get soft-bellied quarterback Sonny Jurgensen, one of the league's premier forward passers, to get into the best condition he could. He coaxed former All-Pro linebacker Sam Huff out of retirement. He even changed the team's uniform design to reflect that of the Packers, with gold and white trim along the jersey biceps, and later a gold helmet. The foundation Lombardi laid was the groundwork for Washington's early 1970s success under former L.A. Rams Coach George Allen. Lombardi had brought a winning attitude to the Nation's Capital, in the same year that the nearby University of Maryland had hired "Lefty" Driesell to coach basketball and the hapless Washington Senators named Ted Williams as manager. It marked a renaissance in sports interest in America's most transient of cities.

On the whole I agree with you, Hoosier. I would only suggest that perhaps part - just part - of the reason the talent wasn't producing before Lombardi arrived is because it was young talent. No doubt in my mind that without Lombardi there would've been no Packer dynasty; I'm only suggesting that success is a combination of hard work, organization, and a combination of circumstances - some of which is good fortune.

But that's not a criticism of Lombardi. Many people have been handed that same combination but could do nothing with it.

I did like the "over-the-hill" gang in the 70's.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Vince, I respect Lombardi as much as anyone. His contribution cannot be denied. He often took players who were unsuccessful or moderately successful on other teams and then they "blossomed" under Lombardi's coaching. Willie Davis was the prime example:


At the time, it was quite likely that the Browns, who had selected Davis in the 15th round of the 1956 draft and intended to use him as an offensive tackle, didn't know what they were giving up. But Packers GM/Head Coach Vince Lombardi apparently knew what he was getting.

Once asked to describe the attributes of a great player, Lombardi said, "You look for speed, agility and size. You may get two of these qualities in one man and when you have three, you have a great player. In Willie Davis, we have a great one. For a big man, 6-3 and 240 pounds, he has excellent agility and he has great sincerity and determination."

And then there was Henry Jordan:


Jordan started his career with the Cleveland Browns as a fifth-round draft pick out of the University of Virginia, and, like Nitschke and Davis, came to the Packers via trade.

In 1959, Lombardi sent a fourth-round pick to the Browns to acquire Jordan in one of his first moves as general manager and head coach.

Standing 6-foot-2 and weighing 248 pounds, Jordan wasn't necessarily a physically intimidating defensive tackle. However, the former collegiate wrestler, who earned runner-up status in the heavyweight class of the 1957 NCAA Championships, used his speed, strength and determination to be a menace in the trenches.

(I'm tempted to say the Cleveland Browns were most responsible for the Packers' success in the 60's :) )

And then there was Carroll Dale, the unsung hero the Pack picked up from the Rams.

Another of Lombardi's strengths was sizing up a man and then entrusting that man to be "the" man in a certain position. There was Bart Starr, a QB who drifted in an out of the starting lineups of Blackburn and McLean. Lombardi told Starr he was his man at QB and the rest is history:


Standing 6-foot-1 and weighing 197 pounds, Starr wasn't a physically intimidating quarterback, and in the early part of his career he was hardly dominant. In his first five seasons, Starr's interceptions (41) were almost double his touchdowns (23).

But Vince Lombardi's 1959 arrival in Green Bay sparked Starr's dramatic evolution. From studying game tapes of Starr's first three seasons, Lombardi saw potential in the University of Alabama alumnus' mechanics. He also loved Starr's ability to manage a game.

The classic example is Paul Hornung. He was probably the most talented football player on the Packers' roster at several positions (DB, QB and HB) before Lombardi's arrival. Still, he was a man without a position and was ready to hang up his spikes in GB. Lombardi changed all that by entrusting Hornung to the HB position where he flourished:


Primarily a quarterback in college, the 6-foot-2, 215-pound Hornung made his reputation in the NFL as halfback under head coach Vince Lombardi. But as talented as he was carrying the football, Hornung remained dangerous with his arm and was an outstanding lead blocker, receiver and kicker.

(The "dangerous with his arm" thing is a bit exagerated. Hornung's arm was a wet noodle. He was famous for his "Alley Oop" passes to Ron Kramer. It was surprise that made his passing "dangerous."

All that said, Lombardi owes a huge debt of gratitude to Lisle Blackburn and Scooter McLean. Their lousy performances ensured the Pack the cream of the college crop of talent for several years prior to Lombardi's arrival.

Look at all the powerhouses in the NFL of that era, and their powerhouse seasons almost always followed years in the NFL basement. Dallas, Minnesota and Pittsburgh are prime examples.

You need a great driver, but without the horsepower the driver's skills are not as effective. Lombardi found that out with the Gold Dust twins and Bob Long, among others.

A lot of us back then suspected that aging talent and mediocre replacement talent was the main reason Lombardi left Green Bay when he did. That was probably an unfounded suspicion, but it did say something about the state of the Packers as a lot of people assessed it when Lombardi left.

[woodbuck27]

Good stuff guys. Thanks. Obviously you gotta have the horses, but I'd attribute half the downfall of the Packers to losing Lombardi.

The foundations of success in football that the Packers dynasty perfected in many ways - dedication, hard work, mastery of fundamentals, understanding and accepting individual responsibilities within the team structure, and of course the skills and ability to execute - was lost after Lombardi left.

I was just born at the time of his death, but like many Packer faithful, I've read the books written about him and watched the numerous video tributes and biographies. In fact, I collect them. His name as my monicker here is my tribute to his contributions not only to Packer history, but to the history of football and of history itself for that matter.

Vince's unique ability as a coach to get maximum performance out of his players - to channel and emit from each player the absolute most he had to give - was perhaps greater than any other coach in history. He used both positive and negative motivational tactics, and he knew how to get a team to gel. His players knew he loved them, and he scared the shit out of them at the same time. He was without a doubt one of the most powerful leaders that has ever lived.

One of Vince's more famous quotes is "Fatigue makes cowards of us all." He made sure that his team would always be the team that was in better shape and had more fight in it at the end of the game. Unlike today, Vince worked his players hard from day 1 of training camp right through the end of the year - particularly at the end of their reign as his core guys were aging. He kept getting his players ready for the "Big Push" over and over throughout the season on their road to their third straight championship in '67. The players recall that every time they thought they had nothing left to give, Vince knew just how to get them to reach deeper to find more and assume their place in history. Playing the games was the easy part.

Off topic, but it's also interesting to note the dramatic cultural changes that have taken place in the generation since that time. OPF made reference to Vince's smoking habit that ultimately took his life. I collect old Packer video clips and I have one where Max McGhee is interviewed in the locker room after a game while getting dressed, and he, and many other players, are smoking a cig right in the locker room, on film while being interviewed. It seems strange to me today to know that was common practice back then. What would happen today if James Jones or AJ Hawk lit up after the game while being interviewed on Packers.com?

Yes motivation, conditioning and practise counts a long ways towords consistent winning. Talent has to be qickened and inspired.

On this:

'' Off topic, but it's also interesting to note the dramatic cultural changes that have taken place in the generation since that time. OPF made reference to Vince's smoking habit that ultimately took his life. I collect old Packer video clips and I have one where Max McGhee is interviewed in the locker room after a game while getting dressed, and he, and many other players, are smoking a cig right in the locker room, on film while being interviewed. It seems strange to me today to know that was common practice back then. What would happen today if James Jones or AJ Hawk lit up after the game while being interviewed on Packers.com? '' Vince

I watched a special on the new and great young Canadian Pop singer Michael Buble - 'Live at Madison Sqare Gardens' this past Wed. evening. The first thing this young man with a real gift of a voice did was light up a cigarette. Maybe he doesn't inhale? :D

[Maxie the Taxi]

"I watched a special on the new and great young Canadian Pop singer Michael Buble - 'Live at Madison Sqare Gardens' this past Wed. evening. The first thing this young man with a real gift of a voice did was light up a cigarette. Maybe he doesn't inhale?"

Woodbuck, listen to his voice. If it wasn't for cigarettes, he'd be a soprano.

[cheesner]

Packgator has the right answer. You can't replace Hall of Famers.

I still remember them asking Vince how the team would do with Bengtson. He said the Packers would be all right.

We all knew they wouldn't be because all the stars were aging.

Not only were those teams stocked with Hall of Famers as starters, but they were deep. My memory may be failing me, but guys like Zeke Bratkowski, Elijah Pitts, Tom Moore, Travis Williams, Norm Masters, Bill Curry, Tommy Crutcher, Marv Fleming, and Maxie the Taxi were HUGE factors in backup roles compensating for injuries.

Because of free agency, there will never be another team like them. Sort of like the Yankess of the same era.
Those players are in the HOF because they were great players and because the Packers were successful. I feel Lombardi was a big part of making those players great and winning. Had Lombardi continued, the Packers would have still likely experienced a lag as the legends were replaced by youngsters, but that the youngsters would have been 'coached up' to be great players also.

The subsequent coaches were simply not Lombardi and the teaching, motivating, and the 'strategery' decreased. And in the NFL, a smidgen of advantage is all that is needed to go from an average team to a great team.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Woodbuck, another point... Did you ever listen to the difference between the young Sinatra and the old Sinatra? The young voice was pure and innocent sounding. The old voice had character and a deeper register.

It was the cigarettes.

[pbmax]

One of us should check on Waldo, he's been logged in all day with no posts. He might need medical attention, or help with Excel.

[Waldo]

One of us should check on Waldo, he's been logged in all day with no posts. He might need medical attention, or help with Excel.

Or use Firefox, and have 'Rats open on one of the tabs. :wink:

[Fritz]

Woodbuck, another point... Did you ever listen to the difference between the young Sinatra and the old Sinatra? The young voice was pure and innocent sounding. The old voice had character and a deeper register.

It was the cigarettes.

Maybe Woodbuck needs to buy Celine Dion a carton of Camels.

[Freak Out]

Off topic, but it's also interesting to note the dramatic cultural changes that have taken place in the generation since that time. OPF made reference to Vince's smoking habit that ultimately took his life. I collect old Packer video clips and I have one where Max McGhee is interviewed in the locker room after a game while getting dressed, and he, and many other players, are smoking a cig right in the locker room, on film while being interviewed. It seems strange to me today to know that was common practice back then. What would happen today if James Jones or AJ Hawk lit up after the game while being interviewed on Packers.com?

Not to nitpick, but didn't Lombardi die of colon cancer?

My father has had both bladder and colon cancer and both were directly related to his years of smoking.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Off topic, but it's also interesting to note the dramatic cultural changes that have taken place in the generation since that time. OPF made reference to Vince's smoking habit that ultimately took his life. I collect old Packer video clips and I have one where Max McGhee is interviewed in the locker room after a game while getting dressed, and he, and many other players, are smoking a cig right in the locker room, on film while being interviewed. It seems strange to me today to know that was common practice back then. What would happen today if James Jones or AJ Hawk lit up after the game while being interviewed on Packers.com?

Not to nitpick, but didn't Lombardi die of colon cancer?

My father has had both bladder and colon cancer and both were directly related to his years of smoking.

http://s.bebo.com/app-image/7947923862/5411656627/PROFILE/i.quizzaz.com/img/q/u/08/04/18/DaleGribble1.JPG

Whoa! Hold on, son! I want you to keep an open mind so you can make an informed decision! If you want, you can read a bloated government report on smoking, or go straight to the horse's mouth and get the facts from the tobacco industry.

[hoosier]

Off topic, but it's also interesting to note the dramatic cultural changes that have taken place in the generation since that time. OPF made reference to Vince's smoking habit that ultimately took his life. I collect old Packer video clips and I have one where Max McGhee is interviewed in the locker room after a game while getting dressed, and he, and many other players, are smoking a cig right in the locker room, on film while being interviewed. It seems strange to me today to know that was common practice back then. What would happen today if James Jones or AJ Hawk lit up after the game while being interviewed on Packers.com?

Not to nitpick, but didn't Lombardi die of colon cancer?

My father has had both bladder and colon cancer and both were directly related to his years of smoking.

But the difference is that lots of nonsmokers get colon cancer too. Lung cancer not so much. There's definitely a correlation between smoking and colon and bladder cancers, yes. But based on the numbers, smoking clearly isn't the main cause with many people.

[oregonpackfan]

My own mother, a smoker of unfiltered cigararettes, also had bladder cancer. She had two other forms of cancer--both smoking related.

In a local science museum, I remember showing my daughter a display of a h lung from a non-smoker and a lung from a smoker. The lung from the non-smoker was a healthy pinkish color. The lung from the smoker was charcoal gray. Hopefully, it made an impression on my daughter.

[MJZiggy]

My brother, while recovering from his heart attack and bypass surgery at 39 years old, showed his sons the fresh surgical scars that resulted from his smoking. Funny, none of them smoke...