JS Jolly article

[DonHutson]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/50494897.html

Nice. well rounded article by Greg Bedard. Maybe when he does some research and takes the time to put a story together, instead of merely spouting off in his blog, he can actually do some good work.

And there was a line at the end that caught my attention as it confirmed what I've always suspected regarding the resigning of Corey Williams. The Packers thought he was a character risk and had no intention of giving him a long term deal. I always assumed that had to be the case, but I don't know that I've ever seen that so explicitly stated.

[packrulz]

Yes, interesting article. Jolly shouldn't be hanging around with punks like that, and I don't want to excuse stupid behavior, but he had a bottle of cough syrup for cryin' out loud, big frickin' deal! The passenger with the semiautomatic weapon had his charges dismissed. I'll be surprised if it does go to trial, Jolly has a clean record, and to my knowledge they never tested Jolly for traces of codeine in his system.

Under the Controlled Substances Act, the state must prove Jolly had knowledge of the drug's presence and exercised some control over it. The attorneys for both Lee and Dallas said no request has been made for their clients to testify against Jolly.

Jolly told the Journal Sentinel that he had passed all the drug tests he was required to take as part of his bond agreement, which likely will help his case.

[]{ilr]3]

After reading through that article I am starting to wonder how much longer he will be on the roster. I think he will be a restricted free agent next year.

Seems to be the coaching staff have real questions about his character


Jolly was far from well-paid - as a sixth-round pick in '06, he received a four-year, $1.705 million contract from the Packers, which included a modest signing bonus of $94,600 - but it didn't stop him from acting, according to one teammate, as if he was "big money."



The way he carried himself and his conduct led the Packers to question how Jolly would handle being given a contract extension, a source said. The Packers held the same concerns about Corey Williams, another defensive lineman. He was traded in '08 by the Packers and given his big contract by the Cleveland Browns.

Even if he plays well, I bet he gets offered up as trade bait like Corey Williams

[bobblehead]

I have always like Bedard...you gotta remember a blog is just a quick note of whats on the top of your head. No research or in depth reporting.

Jolly...well, I actually will guess he cleans it up and works hard to have a good season. I don't think TT will give him a blockbuster deal, but I could see a sizeable contract. Just my impression from what I've seen so far and the information in the article. (this is a blog :P its just my quick opinion).

[pbmax]

I have always like Bedard...you gotta remember a blog is just a quick note of whats on the top of your head. No research or in depth reporting.

Jolly...well, I actually will guess he cleans it up and works hard to have a good season. I don't think TT will give him a blockbuster deal, but I could see a sizeable contract. Just my impression from what I've seen so far and the information in the article. (this is a blog :P its just my quick opinion).
No problem on the blogging, but when you are doing both, then the opinions expressed on the blog become a prism to deconstruct his writing, especially his opinion/analysis pieces. He has proven to be misinformed on the blog and also to hold solid opinions on matters that are quite unclear (anyone remember that Favre had additional problems with the shoulder that might prevent him from playing outside of the injured tendon?)

[woodbuck27]

WOW! That report is full of contradictions.

a) a good teammate with an excellent attitude or

b) a man with a mysterious dark and disturbing personality and disruptive on the field?

As to the warnings of how Johnny Jolly must conduct himself when away from Lambeau Field:

Is it really a case of ''you are who you hang with?'' It seems so with Packer management and Johnny Jolly will soon not be a Green Bay Packer.

PACKERS!

[Fritz]

WOW! That report is full of contradictions.

a) a good teammate with an excellent attitude or

b) a man with a mysterious dark and disturbing personality and disruptive on the field?

As to the warnings of how Johnny Jolly must conduct himself when away from Lambeau Field:

Is it really a case of ''you are who you hang with?'' It seems so with Packer management and Johnny Jolly will soon not be a Green Bay Packer.

PACKERS!

Human beings are full of cntradicitons. Steve McNair did great charity work in his community, he apprently was a kind person, loved his community - but he also cheated on his wife (and cheated himself in the process, I would argue) with not only the 20 year old supposedly. He was a complex man, like all human beings are complex.

Johnny Jolly might be, at times, a penis and an idiot, but he may also be quiet about himself and pretty hardworking and sometimes and in some ways a good teammate.

[woodbuck27]

WOW! That report is full of contradictions.

a) a good teammate with an excellent attitude or

b) a man with a mysterious dark and disturbing personality and disruptive on the field?

As to the warnings of how Johnny Jolly must conduct himself when away from Lambeau Field:

Is it really a case of ''you are who you hang with?'' It seems so with Packer management and Johnny Jolly will soon not be a Green Bay Packer.

PACKERS!

Human beings are full of cntradicitons. Steve McNair did great charity work in his community, he apprently was a kind person, loved his community - but he also cheated on his wife (and cheated himself in the process, I would argue) with not only the 20 year old supposedly. He was a complex man, like all human beings are complex.

Johnny Jolly might be, at times, a penis and an idiot, but he may also be quiet about himself and pretty hardworking and sometimes and in some ways a good teammate.

Yes Fritz isn't that the truth :D .

Looking at this young man (as private or mysterious) and especially after reading your response Fritz. I hope that Johnny Jolly gets no or the lightest slap on the wrist by ' the Law '.

If that's the case I hope Packer management just measures Jolly's work in TC and on the field as a football player worthy or not of wearing the Green and Gold.

GO PACKERS!

[DonHutson]

No problem on the blogging, but when you are doing both, then the opinions expressed on the blog become a prism to deconstruct his writing, especially his opinion/analysis pieces.

I guess my problem with him, and others that do both, is that my perception is that when he feels like doing his homework, it's an article. If he's being lazy and just surfing the web for rumors it's a blog.

Maybe I'm fighting the wave of the future, but I feel like if you call yourself a journalist, and you're posting on a website operated by an organization that considers itself a legitimate news source, then you should have the same journalistic standards whether you call it a blog or a column.

And I understand that the problem is bigger than Greg Bedard. The newspaper sites are competing with non-traditional sites and the result is that to compete in a never ending news-cycle you get more business when you post a lot of new crap than when you post a little bit of quality work.

But since I find myself thinking about the fall of legitimate journalism most often when I read Bedard, I'll make him my scapegoat.

[MJZiggy]

And now you understand why newspapers are failing. At least one big reason why.

Postman was right. News has become entirely entertainment--integrity be damned.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

And now you understand why newspapers are failing. At least one big reason why.

Postman was right. News has become entirely entertainment--integrity be damned.

Newspapers aren't dying because of this type of stuff..hell the NYT site is top 10 for news.

Papers are in trouble because the cost of newsprint went up, ad revs are down, and because papers were generalists. The internet enabled specificity to become profitable.

Look at Politico. The site drove the creation of a newspaper. Not vice versa.

[MJZiggy]

I said ONE reason. When a paper loses its cred, it's dead in the water. No one thinks NYT is there for entertainment which is why it's surviving as well as it is. It's kept its reputation as a more serious news outlet.

[cpk1994]

I said ONE reason. When a paper loses its cred, it's dead in the water. No one thinks NYT is there for entertainment which is why it's surviving as well as it is. It's kept its reputation as a more serious news outlet.I know this maybe a shock, but the NYT isn't surviving well. Their paper is gong down the crapper, losing subscribers left and right, because of its far left tatics.

[pbmax]

I said ONE reason. When a paper loses its cred, it's dead in the water. No one thinks NYT is there for entertainment which is why it's surviving as well as it is. It's kept its reputation as a more serious news outlet.I know this maybe a shock, but the NYT isn't surviving well. Their paper is gong down the crapper, losing subscribers left and right, because of its far left tatics.
So all newspapers are suffering for the reasons listed by Ty (please also add the decline in Classfied Ads specifically-Craig's List) but the NYT is suffering especially for its far left tactics? Please provide links to back this up.

[falco]

While the NYT does enjoy a slight "left of center" view, I believe only the "silent majority" views their writing as "far left."

[cpk1994]

I said ONE reason. When a paper loses its cred, it's dead in the water. No one thinks NYT is there for entertainment which is why it's surviving as well as it is. It's kept its reputation as a more serious news outlet.I know this maybe a shock, but the NYT isn't surviving well. Their paper is gong down the crapper, losing subscribers left and right, because of its far left tatics.
So all newspapers are suffering for the reasons listed by Ty (please also add the decline in Classfied Ads specifically-Craig's List) but the NYT is suffering especially for its far left tactics? Please provide links to back this up.Their subscriber base has been dropping faster than any other newspaper. Especially after the beating Abu Garaib into the ground well after every other news outlet quit reporting on it and after being caught outright making up stories.

[cpk1994]

And I am going to drop the politcal stuff right here before it gets out of hand.

[Waldo]

{ilr]3]After reading through that article I am starting to wonder how much longer he will be on the roster. I think he will be a restricted free agent next year.

Seems to be the coaching staff have real questions about his character


Jolly was far from well-paid - as a sixth-round pick in '06, he received a four-year, $1.705 million contract from the Packers, which included a modest signing bonus of $94,600 - but it didn't stop him from acting, according to one teammate, as if he was "big money."



The way he carried himself and his conduct led the Packers to question how Jolly would handle being given a contract extension, a source said. The Packers held the same concerns about Corey Williams, another defensive lineman. He was traded in '08 by the Packers and given his big contract by the Cleveland Browns.

Even if he plays well, I bet he gets offered up as trade bait like Corey Williams

Big difference though between Williams and Jolly is that Williams was a sack artist DT, Jolly is more of a run stuffer type.

Williams is worth WAY more. Heck Cole was at least capable (generously overstating) of playing both DT positions and really has it in him (size/strength) to be OK at NT with more experience. Jolly is a 2 down UT or backup 3-4 DE. He's not worth a whole lot on the market even with a clean record.

I think the biggest reason Corey wasn't extended had less to do with character than it did magnitude. The team can write a 2-3M/yr pay as you go deal with without batting an eye (see Pops, a contract the team could dump whenever with few repercussions), but when it comes to things like 6M+ for 4+ years, that player has to be a little more safe to extend, both on and off the field, and Corey priced himself out of safety both places. If Corey could have been kept for what Cole got in Seattle (~3M/yr), I have no doubt that Corey would still be a Packer. Too bad sacks cost more than that, as the rest of Corey's game is no more than a 2-3M/yr DT.

[pbmax]

And I am going to drop the politcal stuff right here before it gets out of hand.
Then PM me the link please.

[pbmax]

Big difference though between Williams and Jolly is that Williams was a sack artist DT, Jolly is more of a run stuffer type.

Williams is worth WAY more. Heck Cole was at least capable (generously overstating) of playing both DT positions and really has it in him (size/strength) to be OK at NT with more experience. Jolly is a 2 down UT or backup 3-4 DE. He's not worth a whole lot on the market even with a clean record.
I must be missing it with Cole as you and several of the newspaper types have remarked that his game has improved on the anchor front. I still only see him go backwards or sideways at the discretion of the O Line everytime I see him double-teamed. He just seems to get washed out faster than everyone else at that DT position. (was it a 1 or 3 in Sanders scheme?)

Jolly has some pass rush in him, esp. compared to Cole but he has never put together a stretch like Williams had in the first half of '07. So I agree with the general contract parameters you foresee.

[Fritz]

PB, if I have read Waldo correctly in the past and in this link, I think he's not making any claims of magnitude about Cole. I don't think he thinks all that much of Cole as a player - I think he uses Cole here as a baseline comparison of what a minimum NFL player might be like and earn. I never felt like Waldo was a big Cole fan.

And if I'm reading this wrong, Waldo, tell me.

[Waldo]

Cole sucks. He is terrible.

However there are four types of DT's in the NFL:

1) Pass rushing NT's - Ultra rare and desirable. Few players ever sustained it for any period of time. Haynesworth is one, Raji was drafted to be one.

2) Pass rushing UT's - Guys that can quickly get into the backfield and disrupt plays, but are going to get pushed around when run doubled. Corey Williams was one, as is T. Harris.

3) Run stuffing NT's - 2 down players that eat 2 blockers and plug the middle, in a 3-4 or 4-3, the 3-4 NT being more desirable (often just playing in a 3-4 makes a guy more desirable). Most teams will look to replace these guys on passing downs though. Pickett is an example.

4) Run stuffing UT's - Guys that aren't much in the pass rushing department, and can't anchor against a double block, however when single blocked they can hold their ground and make plays. The least desirable type of DT's. Jolly is an example.

Jolly just doesn't have it in him to be a K. Williams or T. Harris type, he doesn't have the quickness to be a disruptive pass rusher from the UT spot. Nor does he have the size, power, or frame to be a good NT. He could in several years, but there is a lot of effort between where he is now, and where he needs to be.

Cole OTOH, aside from the suck, has it in him to be a run stuffing NT. He is big enough. He has the frame. He has the power. He's a little on the slow side, but he could at least be effective. I'm not sure why he is so terrible, but every now and then he made good plays. If I had to guess at one being an above average player someday, Cole would definitely be my choice over Jolly.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Cole is terrible, horrible yet he is better than Jolly and attracted a high bid in the free agency market.

I think any player who stays on a roster for several seasons has got to be OK. There is a fine line between good and OK, you never know when or if a player will take that step. I doubt there is much difference between Williams, Cole and Jolly. They are OK players that have shown signs of being good.

[pbmax]

Cole is terrible, horrible yet he is better than Jolly and attracted a high bid in the free agency market.

I think any player who stays on a roster for several seasons has got to be OK. There is a fine line between good and OK, you never know when or if a player will take that step. I doubt there is much difference between Williams, Cole and Jolly.
Most players who sign early in FA get a high bid, but his offer was nowhere near what Corey Williams got. So even the Seahawks don't see him as the same.

I think Jolly has some pass rush, but he's been wildly inconsistent. When he filled in for Williams in 07, he looked like a house on fire, but he got banged up and has not looked the same since.

Cole looks the part, but he rarely makes a play and is usually being pushed the wrong way. I could see him succeeding when he does not need to take a double team, but since he is not quick, I can't see him starting as a UT (3 technique, right?).

[Waldo]

I think Jolly has some pass rush, but he's been wildly inconsistent. When he filled in for Williams in 07, he looked like a house on fire, but he got banged up and has not looked the same since.

Jolly outright won the starting spot in TC.

For one simple reason. He could stop the run OK and provide a figment of a pass rush.

Williams was a very good pass rusher, but terrible against the run. Not what you want in a starting DT. But a good situational DT.

Cole was pretty good against the run, but useless as a rusher. A good rotational base DT.

Harrell was a rookie that was not ready. Also a rotational base DT.

[pbmax]

I think Jolly has some pass rush, but he's been wildly inconsistent. When he filled in for Williams in 07, he looked like a house on fire, but he got banged up and has not looked the same since.

Jolly outright won the starting spot in TC.

For one simple reason. He could stop the run OK and provide a figment of a pass rush.

Williams was a very good pass rusher, but terrible against the run. Not what you want in a starting DT. But a good situational DT.

Cole was pretty good against the run, but useless as a rusher. A good rotational base DT.

Harrell was a rookie that was not ready. Also a rotational base DT.
Excellent memory. And then Jolly got hurt well after the start of the season, where I remember him hurt early. Looking at the NFL gamebook's for 2007 Williams started over Jolly for the first time in Week 3, then again in 8, 9. 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 and 17. Jolly started Week 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 10 and 11.

Week 7 was the bye and Week 17 might not count as they had some injured guys sit out.

[KYPack]

Jolly's charges were dropped today.

Houston DA's ofc states they may file again later.

[CaptainKickass]

Jolly's charges were dropped today.

Houston DA's ofc states they may file again later.


Source? Linkage? I wanna read the article. Oh wait. I forgot. There won't be an article as this is news about a Packer Football player. (this is an example of sarcasm for all you who may be a bit slow today)

[CaptainKickass]

Nevermind -

I found it:


http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090716/GPG0101/90716087/1058/PKR01

[swede]

I'm glad that Houston is taking a stand against cough syrup wherever it raises its ugly purple head.

[CaptainKickass]

This more closely resembles an article:

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/ic/blogs/insider/index.shtml

In it they speculate that this could be drawn out so as not to affect this season. Meaning - Jolly is good to go for this year.

.

[Freak Out]

They will refile the case after police "are trained on the new equipment and learn to testify about the results"? WTF did he do again? Drive around with spiked kool aid? Just say no........

[woodbuck27]

Jolly's charges were dropped today.

Houston DA's ofc states they may file again later.

Good for Johnny Jolly. Now he has to hang with cooler people or hot dames. :D

Waldo. Solid info. offered by you in this thread Re: the different skills needed by DT's for various degrees of success or not stopping the run and pass, being a two or three down DT and containing the QB.

GO PACK GO!

[MadScientist]

They will refile the case after police "are trained on the new equipment and learn to testify about the results"? WTF did he do again? Drive around with spiked kool aid? Just say no........
They are trying to figure out what to do because they know they are trying to gin up the charge by a factor of 1000, and their new equipment proves it all too well. I suspect the next charge will be much lower, and maybe not at all if the statute of limitations is up for a smaller charge.

[Waldo]

They will refile the case after police "are trained on the new equipment and learn to testify about the results"? WTF did he do again? Drive around with spiked kool aid? Just say no........
They are trying to figure out what to do because they know they are trying to gin up the charge by a factor of 1000, and their new equipment proves it all too well. I suspect the next charge will be much lower, and maybe not at all if the statute of limitations is up for a smaller charge.

He was charged as if he had pure Codeine in the cups (measuring by weight of liquid). The stupid GB newpaper (I forget which one (edit, the one that is the OP of this thread)) recently had "no doctor would proscribe that much....." in an article after interviewing a pharmacist, I am inclined to think that those morons have yet to realize that the cops weighed all of the liquid, not just the Codiene, and charged him as if all the liquid were pure Codiene.

With this reworking of the charge, IMO it will shift from a felony to a petty misdemeanor.

There are other oddities in this case, like the cops found multiple cups, but 1 less than the number of people in the car. They approached the car because of loud music, an inference that the keys were in the ignition (most cars need the keys to run the subs, even if the radio can do without, and most cars don't have radios that attract cops without subs), if that is the case, where is the DUI, driver seat+keys+under influence = DUI. How did he pass the NFL drug tests that he surely got? Always dicey with a vehicle search, Cops always screw up a technicality, few people busted can afford the lawyer to screw the cops on that through, Jolly can. Plus the BS quantities he was being charged with....

Lotta things aren't right in this case.

I said from day 1 when the first figments of details were leaked out, that I would be shocked if he was actually found guilty of anything more than a petty misdemeanor, and that most likely he would be found not guilty or the charges dropped. If he was actually guilty of anything, he would have done a plea deal. He's taking it to court convinced he is getting off scott free.

[packrulz]

Ruling likely pushes case past this season
Even if prosecutors refile a drug charge against Packers lineman Johnny Jolly within 90 days, there is a strong likelihood the case won't end up in a courtroom until after the 2009 season.

According to those who know more on the topic than I, the use of a chemical analyzer opens the door to a raft of expert testimony, all of which would have to be vetted before trial. A single motion from Jolly's attorneys easily could push the case into January or beyond.

Unless NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell changes his stance regarding first-time offenders of the personal conduct policy, Jolly likely would also avoid league discipline until the new case is resolved.

So, at this stage, the smart money is on Jolly being available for the entire season.

UPDATE: Said Packers linebacker Nick Barnett via Twitter: "Congrats to jolly!!! Yes !!! Need that guy!!!"

-- Tom Pelissero, tpelisse@greenbaypressgazette.com
http://twitter.com/tompelissero

[pbmax]

He was charged as if he had pure Codeine in the cups (measuring by weight of liquid). The stupid GB newpaper (I forget which one (edit, the one that is the OP of this thread)) recently had "no doctor would proscribe that much....." in an article after interviewing a pharmacist, I am inclined to think that those morons have yet to realize that the cops weighed all of the liquid, not just the Codiene, and charged him as if all the liquid were pure Codiene.

With this reworking of the charge, IMO it will shift from a felony to a petty misdemeanor.

There are other oddities in this case, like the cops found multiple cups, but 1 less than the number of people in the car. They approached the car because of loud music, an inference that the keys were in the ignition (most cars need the keys to run the subs, even if the radio can do without, and most cars don't have radios that attract cops without subs), if that is the case, where is the DUI, driver seat+keys+under influence = DUI. How did he pass the NFL drug tests that he surely got? Always dicey with a vehicle search, Cops always screw up a technicality, few people busted can afford the lawyer to screw the cops on that through, Jolly can. Plus the BS quantities he was being charged with....

Lotta things aren't right in this case.

I said from day 1 when the first figments of details were leaked out, that I would be shocked if he was actually found guilty of anything more than a petty misdemeanor, and that most likely he would be found not guilty or the charges dropped. If he was actually guilty of anything, he would have done a plea deal. He's taking it to court convinced he is getting off scott free.
Given that the lab staff do not yet know how to work the machine that tells them how much codeine was in the liquid, I think you have a solid point. But how much does the liquid weigh in terms of grams? Liquid containers usually label the contents in milliliters(mL), not grams. Does the liquid in half a Dr. Pepper bottle weigh 200-400 grams? Or is that the fraction of the total they assumed was codeine?

If so, this was a great waste of time. And it makes the excuses of postponing the trial look like lies. It is also all the more confusing since Houston has been battling this problem for a while and these types of mistakes would seem to be the kind made by inexperienced folks.

[hoosier]

He was charged as if he had pure Codeine in the cups (measuring by weight of liquid). The stupid GB newpaper (I forget which one (edit, the one that is the OP of this thread)) recently had "no doctor would proscribe that much....." in an article after interviewing a pharmacist, I am inclined to think that those morons have yet to realize that the cops weighed all of the liquid, not just the Codiene, and charged him as if all the liquid were pure Codiene.

With this reworking of the charge, IMO it will shift from a felony to a petty misdemeanor.

There are other oddities in this case, like the cops found multiple cups, but 1 less than the number of people in the car. They approached the car because of loud music, an inference that the keys were in the ignition (most cars need the keys to run the subs, even if the radio can do without, and most cars don't have radios that attract cops without subs), if that is the case, where is the DUI, driver seat+keys+under influence = DUI. How did he pass the NFL drug tests that he surely got? Always dicey with a vehicle search, Cops always screw up a technicality, few people busted can afford the lawyer to screw the cops on that through, Jolly can. Plus the BS quantities he was being charged with....

Lotta things aren't right in this case.

I said from day 1 when the first figments of details were leaked out, that I would be shocked if he was actually found guilty of anything more than a petty misdemeanor, and that most likely he would be found not guilty or the charges dropped. If he was actually guilty of anything, he would have done a plea deal. He's taking it to court convinced he is getting off scott free.
Given that the lab staff do not yet know how to work the machine that tells them how much codeine was in the liquid, I think you have a solid point. But how much does the liquid weigh in terms of grams? Liquid containers usually label the contents in milliliters(mL), not grams. Does the liquid in half a Dr. Pepper bottle weigh 200-400 grams? Or is that the fraction of the total they assumed was codeine?

If so, this was a great waste of time. And it makes the excuses of postponing the trial look like lies. It is also all the more confusing since Houston has been battling this problem for a while and these types of mistakes would seem to be the kind made by inexperienced folks.

For water 1ml = 1g. The density of codeine is not much different from water, so let's call it a wash. So then 200-400 grams would be between a third and two thirds of a 20oz. soda bottle.

If I had to guess I would say that is the entire contents of the bottle they confiscated, not the codeine content. Sounds like somebody in the Houston PD or the lab made a boneheaded mistake.

[pbmax]

For water 1ml = 1g.
At 4 degrees Celsius, that is true!

[Freak Out]

Chemistry :hug:

[vince]

It looks like he's going to get off on this, which as a Packer fan, I'm glad about. I'm glad he'll have every opportunity to prove himself on the field this year without missing time. While he doesn't get to the QB, he does seem to have a knack for batting balls down. Although, if Harrell is healthy, I think he is in the rotation at DE ahead of Jolly. Purely as a player, I don't think Jolly is ideally suited for either the DE or NT position in this defense.

On the personal side of this, it remains concerning. It's not something to make light of as if he (or his buddies) were just taking a tablespoon of cough medicine. I don't know if Jolly was taking the Drank, but he obviously was at least a party to it, which shows some character issues that, unless he really steps up this year on the field (which I don't see), I think cause the Packers to not re-sign him.

Consuming Codeine in that fashion is illegal for good reason. It's not something to fuck with. As a derivative of heroine, it is a potentially addicting narcotic that, when taken in too large of doses (like when dumping it with soda and chugging it down), causes coma, heart problems, kidney problems, liver failure, slow heartbeat, troubled breathing, and vomiting. Those combinations kill. It ain't pot he was smoking (which I believe was also in the car).

[Fritz]

Well put, Vince.

I think the Packers have wrung as much as they can from Jolly. It would seem he'll end up in a 4-3 scheme somewhere, maybe Oakland if Jolly can ante up a bit on the hijinks. I don't think this "Drank" stuff, dangerous though it might be, is quite up to Raiders' standards.

[Bretsky]

Jolly is good as gone next year due to character IMO

[Patler]

Jolly is good as gone next year due to character IMO

I think so too. I would feel differently if he came out and said things like, "While I wasn't doing anything myself, I realize I put myself in a very bad situation, and I can't do that in the future." Something to make me think he had a real awakening by this "near miss".

Instead, his comments have been to almost blow it off as if it wasn't anything at all. The reality of it is that he put himself in a situation that could take away his entire immediate future. From the comments I have read, he doesn't seem to realize that, which means he is likely to repeat the same mistakes again.

[pbmax]

Jolly might get off on the codeine charge, but there is some other troubling info contained in the documents on the case:

JSO has an article by Ken Fountain that claims documents filed in the case show a urine test for Jolly that tested positive for marijuana on the night of his arrest. He tested negative for everything else, including the codeine.

If its Jolly first brush with this, he won't miss time. If he was already in the NFL Substance Abuse program, it could mean four games.

JSO Jolly followup by Ken Fountain - 7-17-09 (http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/51061362.html)

[Waldo]

Jolly might get off on the codeine charge, but there is some other troubling info contained in the documents on the case:

JSO has an article by Ken Fountain that claims documents filed in the case show a urine test for Jolly that tested positive for marijuana on the night of his arrest. He tested negative for everything else, including the codeine.

If its Jolly first brush with this, he won't miss time. If he was already in the NFL Substance Abuse program, it could mean four games.

JSO Jolly followup by Ken Fountain - 7-17-09 (http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/51061362.html)

...ah yes, but if he failed back then, he would have been suspended back then. Rodger doesn't wait on court cases to suspend in the case of failed drug tests.

[Rastak]

Jolly might get off on the codeine charge, but there is some other troubling info contained in the documents on the case:

JSO has an article by Ken Fountain that claims documents filed in the case show a urine test for Jolly that tested positive for marijuana on the night of his arrest. He tested negative for everything else, including the codeine.

If its Jolly first brush with this, he won't miss time. If he was already in the NFL Substance Abuse program, it could mean four games.

JSO Jolly followup by Ken Fountain - 7-17-09 (http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/51061362.html)

...ah yes, but if he failed back then, he would have been suspended back then. Rodger doesn't wait on court cases to suspend in the case of failed drug tests.


Doesn't a first failed test put you in the program, but not suspend you?

I'm not 100% sure but I think you are wrong on that. This isn't the personal conduct policy, there is a strict policy in place with progressivly severe punishments.

[pbmax]

Jolly might get off on the codeine charge, but there is some other troubling info contained in the documents on the case:

JSO has an article by Ken Fountain that claims documents filed in the case show a urine test for Jolly that tested positive for marijuana on the night of his arrest. He tested negative for everything else, including the codeine.

If its Jolly first brush with this, he won't miss time. If he was already in the NFL Substance Abuse program, it could mean four games.

JSO Jolly followup by Ken Fountain - 7-17-09 (http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/51061362.html)

...ah yes, but if he failed back then, he would have been suspended back then. Rodger doesn't wait on court cases to suspend in the case of failed drug tests.
He doesn't wait if it is THEIR drug test. Even then there is the appeal. But this is a criminal matter and he must wait as a matter of precedent and CBA. That has been the pattern. Although, to be entered in stage 1, a conviction is not necessary.

Its the Personal Conduct Policy, which does not cover drug offenses, that he has declared that he need not wait for a trial to conclude.

[pbmax]

Here is Florio's take on the difference between Jolly and Plaxico.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/07/16/double-standard-for-burress-jolly/

[Willard]

Jolly might get off on the codeine charge, but there is some other troubling info contained in the documents on the case:

JSO has an article by Ken Fountain that claims documents filed in the case show a urine test for Jolly that tested positive for marijuana on the night of his arrest. He tested negative for everything else, including the codeine.

If its Jolly first brush with this, he won't miss time. If he was already in the NFL Substance Abuse program, it could mean four games.

JSO Jolly followup by Ken Fountain - 7-17-09 (http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/51061362.html)

...ah yes, but if he failed back then, he would have been suspended back then. Rodger doesn't wait on court cases to suspend in the case of failed drug tests.
He doesn't wait if it is THEIR drug test. Even then there is the appeal. But this is a criminal matter and he must wait as a matter of precedent and CBA. That has been the pattern. Although, to be entered in stage 1, a conviction is not necessary.

Its the Personal Conduct Policy, which does not cover drug offenses, that he has declared that he need not wait for a trial to conclude.
I believe "excessive volume from car stereo" should be part of the Personal Conduct Policy.

[pbmax]

Jolly might get off on the codeine charge, but there is some other troubling info contained in the documents on the case:

JSO has an article by Ken Fountain that claims documents filed in the case show a urine test for Jolly that tested positive for marijuana on the night of his arrest. He tested negative for everything else, including the codeine.

If its Jolly first brush with this, he won't miss time. If he was already in the NFL Substance Abuse program, it could mean four games.

JSO Jolly followup by Ken Fountain - 7-17-09 (http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/51061362.html)

...ah yes, but if he failed back then, he would have been suspended back then. Rodger doesn't wait on court cases to suspend in the case of failed drug tests.
He doesn't wait if it is THEIR drug test. Even then there is the appeal. But this is a criminal matter and he must wait as a matter of precedent and CBA. That has been the pattern. Although, to be entered in stage 1, a conviction is not necessary.

Its the Personal Conduct Policy, which does not cover drug offenses, that he has declared that he need not wait for a trial to conclude.
I believe "excessive volume from car stereo" should be part of the Personal Conduct Policy.
There is some confusion over that issue. Some accounts indicate that it was Jolly's car that was loud. The police report indicates something in the parking lot was loud. Their car might have been one of many, or had drawn notice to itself after police arrived to look after something else.

[Fritz]

As much as I enjoy intelligent conversation, sometimes it seems like you have to be a legal scholar to understand whether Jolly or the Williams men or Burress will be suspended or convicted or neither or both.

[vince]

Here's some clarification on Jolly's situation, should the prosecution follow through with their stated intent to refile. While the law in Texas was originally written for cocaine related situations and has some perhaps unintended consequences as it pertains to these "purple drank" situations, the general intent of the law is sound. Slamming "the lean" particularly when mixing it with other "effect enhancing" drugs (marijuana is one) is indeed a potentially dangerous activity.

http://hesgotallkindsoftime.blogspot.com/2009/07/is-jolly-facing-prosecution-for-having.html

First things first: I think the media has mixed-up the facts a bit. Jolly is not charged with possessing 200 grams of codeine---an insane amount equivalent to "a couple years worth for someone that has a serious pain disorder." Rather, Jolly is charged with possessing a 200 grams of a liquid that contains a very small (by orders of magnitude) fraction of codeine.

Under Texas law, a controlled substance includes "adulterants or dilutants" which are "any material that increases the bulk or quantity of a controlled substance, regardless of its effect on the chemical activity of the controlled substance." To convict Jolly, the prosecution must prove that he:

(1) possessed (2) a mixture containing not more than 200 milligrams of codeine and any of its salts per 100 milliliters and per 100 grams, that also (3) contains one or more nonnarcotic active medicinal ingredients (4) in sufficient proportion to confer on the mixture valuable medicinal qualities other than those possessed by the codeine alone, (5) weighing by aggregate weight, including any adulterants or dilutants, more than 200 grams and less than 400 grams.

Soda is considered an "adulterant."

The purpose of the adulterant rule appears to be to not let off the hook an unscrupulous drug dealer (are there "scrupulous" drug dealers?) that cuts his product with impurities. The bizarre consequence for these purple prosecutions is that (as best I can tell) the defendant is punished more severly based upon the amount of soda that he or she uses to dilute the cough syrup.

If you are on sitting on the front porch relaxing with 27.9 grams of cough syrup, the most you can be charged with is a Class B Misdemeanor (punishable by the still way too extreme six months in jail). If you mix that same cough syrup with 172.1 grams of Shasta, or Canada Dry, or Chocolate Milk you are committing a Second Degree Felony punishable by not less than 2 years in lockdown---and up to 20 years in the joint.

(Digusting factoid: rape is also a Second Degree Felony in Texas. That's right possessing cough syrup without a prescription is treated as harshly raping another person.)

But here is the apparent catch: the prosecution must prove that liquid contains one "or more nonnarcotic active medicinal ingredients [here: an anti-histamine called promethazine] in sufficient proportion to confer on the mixture valuable medicinal qualities other than those possessed by the codeine alone."

Thus, as the cough syrup becomes more and more diluted with soda, at some point the levels of promethazine will be so low as to no longer be "in sufficient proportion to confer on the mixture valuable medicinal qualities other than those possessed by the codeine alone." At that point, the liquid no longer meets the statutory definition.

So what is the deal with the prosecution dismissing the case to allow technicians to learn how to use a piece of equipment that can measure the amount of codeine in a liquid?

Harris County lost an appeal last last year in a case called Massie v. Texas because the prosecution could not prove the percentage of codeine or promenthazine in a soda bottle. The prosecution's theory was that the actual concentrations did not matter: all that mattered was that there was some amount of codeine and promenthazine in an Orange Crush concoction and that in total it exceeded the 200 gram threshold.

The Court of Appeals disagreed, holding that the prosecution must still present evidence that the concentration of codeine is less than 200mg/100 mL. In addition, the prosecution must present evidence that the promenthazine is present in sufficient quantity to "confer on the mixture valuable medicinal qualities."

I suspect (and this is an educated guess only) that as a result of this case and perhaps other similar cases, Harris County was forced to buy new equipment capable of measuring the quantity of codeine and promenthazine in a liquid. That is what the dismissal was all about.

In addition, the LD50 (i.e., the dosage that would kill 50% of those who consumed it) for codeine is 800 mg. 200 grams of codeine would be 250 times the dosage that would kill an average human being.

Jolly is not and was never charged with carrying around such an insane amount of codeine.

And regarding the potential dangers of what Jolly's crew was actually doing, there's this information... http://codeine.50g.com/info/codeine.html#dosage

The average person who has a cough would take 15-60 miligrams of codeine (mixed with syrup) every 4-6 hours.

The average "non-tolerant recreational user" takes about 200 miligrams of codeine to get the sought-after effects. But like all opiates, tolerance is built up, which requires increasing doses for effect. The drug also has cumulative negative effects on vital organ function and is mentally and physically addictive. While not scientifically proven, smoking marijuana before consuming "Lean" is thought to enhance the effects of codeine, and drinking carbonated beverages with the codeine increase the absorption rate of the drug.

The average human being would likely die from consuming 800 miligrams of codeine. That's as little as 10-15 times the amount you would take to suppress a cough.

Mixing codeine and carbonation with smoking dope (and other effect-increasing drugs) is just a bad idea on many different levels.

[KYPack]

A law which convicts a person for mixing an illegal substance and charge that person with the total quantity of the drink will be thrown out on it's statutory ass. There is no way in hell Texas will be able to keep this law on the books.

Jolly was given an "intent to distribute" charge based on the huge quantity of drugs he possessed. But he actually was just a user. The DA in Harris county is going to cost himself a law if he pursues this charge.

[pbmax]

Here's some clarification on Jolly's situation, should the prosecution follow through with their stated intent to refile. While the law in Texas was originally written for cocaine related situations and has some perhaps unintended consequences as it pertains to these "purple drank" situations, the general intent of the law is sound. Slamming "the lean" particularly when mixing it with other "effect enhancing" drugs (marijuana is one) is indeed a potentially dangerous activity.

http://hesgotallkindsoftime.blogspot.com/2009/07/is-jolly-facing-prosecution-for-having.html
Well, on the plus side, that clears up the horrible and contradictory reporting from the Wisconsin end of the news cycle. On the downside, I need some codeine for the headache that post caused. :lol:

[hoosier]

Mixing codeine and carbonation with smoking dope (and other effect-increasing drugs) is just a bad idea on many different levels.

It may sound like a bad idea to you or me but the health risks don't carry much weight if you're just out there looking to get your jollies. :wink:

On a slightly more serious note, it seems pretty obvious right now that JJ's first Packer contract, which expires at the end of the 09 season, will also be his last. I wonder if he'll find much interest on the FA market as a DT after a year of being in the rotation as a substitute DE in the 3-4.