Hawk a bust?

[KYPack]

In a word, no.

He's not been the defensive superstar we hoped for, but he's a good hand on the field. He gets the job done and knows what to do.

Look at AJ Hawk compared with other 1st rnd LB's from that year:

COMPARING THE NUMBERS
Linebackers selected in the first round of the 2006 NFL draft and their career statistics:
Pick Player Team Solo tackles Sacks Int. Fum. recov. TD
5 A.J. Hawk G.B. 227 7.5 3 0 0
9 Ernie Sims Det. 249 2.5 1 0 0
13 Kamerion Wimbley Cle. 135 20 1 0 0
17 Chad Greenway Minn. 164 5.5 2 1 1
18 Bobby Carpenter Dallas 35 1.5 0 0 0
22 Manny Lawson S.F. 88 5.5 1 0 0

Hawk has improved every season and is very comparable, if not better than Greenway and Sims.

Who would you rather have at LB for the Pack?

AJ Hawk or Barbi Carpenter?

[Zool]

Greenway might end up being better. He did miss an entire season with an injury. I'm excited to see the shackles off Hawk for the first time. I wonder if he'll look better now that he's not just contain and funnel?

[hoosier]

In a word, no.

He's not been the defensive superstar we hoped for, but he's a good hand on the field. He gets the job done and knows what to do.

Look at AJ Hawk compared with other 1st rnd LB's from that year:

COMPARING THE NUMBERS
Linebackers selected in the first round of the 2006 NFL draft and their career statistics:
Pick Player Team Solo tackles Sacks Int. Fum. recov. TD
5 A.J. Hawk G.B. 227 7.5 3 0 0
9 Ernie Sims Det. 249 2.5 1 0 0
13 Kamerion Wimbley Cle. 135 20 1 0 0
17 Chad Greenway Minn. 164 5.5 2 1 1
18 Bobby Carpenter Dallas 35 1.5 0 0 0
22 Manny Lawson S.F. 88 5.5 1 0 0

Hawk has improved every season and is very comparable, if not better than Greenway and Sims.

Who would you rather have at LB for the Pack?

AJ Hawk or Barbi Carpenter?

DeMeco Ryans.

I don't think anyone can seriously argue that Hawk is a bust. That's just hyperbole. But you could make the argument that he has been somewhat of a disappointment based on his draft position (you could probably argue that about most of the top 10 from 2006, excepting Mario) and that he compares poorly with other LBs who have been high draft picks in recent years (Mayo, Willis, Ware, Merriman, Vilma, Suggs). Of course there are others who came with very high expectations and have done worse so far--Vernon Gholston for instance.

I'm willing to give Hawk some benefit of the doubt based on the idea that the Sanders system wasn't designed to feature his best skills or the WLB position. But I think it would be unrealistic at this point to expect him to emerge as an entirely different player. What we've seen so far is probably more or less what we're going to get.

[KYPack]

DeMeco Ryans.

I don't think anyone can seriously argue that Hawk is a bust. That's just hyperbole. But you could make the argument that he has been somewhat of a disappointment based on his draft position (you could probably argue that about most of the top 10 from 2006, excepting Mario) and that he compares poorly with other LBs who have been high draft picks in recent years (Mayo, Willis, Ware, Merriman, Vilma, Suggs). Of course there are others who came with very high expectations and have done worse so far--Vernon Gholston for instance.

I'm willing to give Hawk some benefit of the doubt based on the idea that the Sanders system wasn't designed to feature his best skills or the WLB position. But I think it would be unrealistic at this point to expect him to emerge as an entirely different player. What we've seen so far is probably more or less what we're going to get.

Absolutely. Ryans is the superstar LB from that class. Those high number 2 picks often turn into real bonus cards and Ryans is proof of that. Hawk did show me a lot by just getting on the field last season. He played well for playing hurt.

I can't wait to see Hawk play under Capers. Sanders non-system system really handicapped a lot of players, Hawk among 'em.

[MOBB DEEP]

sorry KY but im not sold on hawk AT ALL

im not in to calling pro athletes busts but i just dont think he has "it" irregardless of numbers or comparisons to his peer group

if he doesnt do much better in 3-4 i think he will go down as a disappointment

[ND72]

Couple things to remember...In Vanilla Bob's defense, Hawk's job was not to tackle as an OLB, his job was to force the RB to turn the corner so the MLB could make the tackle. Yes, I know he ended up playing MLB last season, but our DL was horrible. It's amazing how good LB's become when the DL in front of them is solid. Also, as far as rushing the passer goes, does anyone remember how Bob would blitz? He'd have the LB walk up to the line, showing blitz, and then go...real genius. Hawk is back playing the position he pretty much played now in college in our 3-4 defense, as he was a Middle/Outside Backer, like he'll play now. Nobody truly knows how injured he was last season, as I read that he could barely breath most days, but still played every game, and practice almost all practices.

[Bossman641]

Not a bust, definitely a disappointment though. This has to be the year for him to prove he is a playmaker. It was a real let down for him to be basically invincible (except for the 1st game) after moving to the MLB spot last year.

[ND72]

Not a bust, definitely a disappointment though. This has to be the year for him to prove he is a playmaker. It was a real let down for him to be basically invincible (except for the 1st game) after moving to the MLB spot last year.

did you mean invisible? or invincible?

[Waldo]

I remember prior to the draft, there was the big question.

There was the safe pick, Hawk, that most thought didn't have a real high ceiling. Brian Noble if you will. Reliable and consistent, but probably not a HOF player. Good workouts across the board, but not legendary good at any one thing. Thought to have near zero bust potential.

Then there was super Mario. Eye popping workout warrior. Moderate college production. Important position. But a lot weren't sold since he didn't really "break out" until very late in his college career.

Bush, who almost everybody agreed was the greatest thing ever. A faster more shifty Brian Westbrook. Would revolutionize the RB position. We had no chance at him.

The LT, Ferguson. Chances are we didn't have a shot. He had everything that you looked for in a top 5 LT. But we had Clifton and no need.

The TE. Best TE workouts ever, by a good margin. He had more HOF potential than anybody in the draft. WR speed, TE size, lineman strength, decent production. Downside was a non-premium pick.

Then the S, Huff. Would be the fastest S on the stopwatch in the NFL. Not the best player though and kinda raw, plus we had Collins, who was a very similar player.

Ngata was mentioned on occasion, but #5 and #5 money was seen as too high for a slow plugger DT that wasn't a QB sacking threat. His workouts were great though.

I followed that draft very close. I'd say overall fan sentiment, 2 weeks out, was:

37% Hawk
28% Mario
25% Davis
8% Ngata
2% Other (Huff, Ferguson)

With the ridiculously poor state of our LB corps, the recent busts and fact that a bust at #5 is near tragic, most people said "so what" to HOF potential and wanted the safe guy that didn't have a super high ceiling. That was widely understood about Hawk. He had no special greatness making traits, but was reliably well above average at everything, and absolutely loved the game. Its funny how many people have seemingly changed their view on this now years later after the draft because he was the "#5" pick, when a few years ago most were content with a starting ready guy that probably wasn't going to suck, even at #5. Still looking at that god awful draft though, he was one of the better players to come out of the first round.

[mraynrand]

Hawk ain't done yet. Best play so far was the pass defensed on Gonzales late in the game at K.C. in 2007. Showed range, speed, flexibility. People have pointed out that he was injured last year. This is true, and I think he was hurt worse than let on. I watched him run out of the tunnel before that ATL game. His stride was reduced at least 25% - it looked painful. I've seen old men with walkers that moved better. The groin, the chest, it adds up. Maybe never a superstar, but I think he'll be a very good starter, hopefully for years and years - maybe even score a pro bowl or two.

[Tarlam!]

Good review, Waldo, but IIRC, most around here including myself were overjoyed with the Hawk pick. Furthermore, I recall he was hailed as being the answer at LB.

In that regard I somewhat have a different view on how high his ceiling was perceived to be.

Right now, mark me down for blaming Vanilla Bob's defense on the Hawk mediocrity.

[Kiwon]

It will be interesting to see the difference in Hawk's performance and stats going from the 4-3 to the 3-4.

[Bossman641]

Not a bust, definitely a disappointment though. This has to be the year for him to prove he is a playmaker. It was a real let down for him to be basically invincible (except for the 1st game) after moving to the MLB spot last year.

did you mean invisible? or invincible?

Oops, ya invisible

Sliding to the middle was his shot to play the Barnett role and be the one to have everything funneled to him. It didn't work out that way. A weak DL in front of him and various injuries resulted in a very mediocre performance.

If our DL rotation is as strong as it looks like it should be, I expect big years from all the linebackers.

[Scott Campbell]

I don't remember him missing a bunch of tackles and blowing assignments. I think he's working out fine.

[KYPack]

Couple things to remember...In Vanilla Bob's defense, Hawk's job was not to tackle as an OLB, his job was to force the RB to turn the corner so the MLB could make the tackle. Yes, I know he ended up playing MLB last season, but our DL was horrible. It's amazing how good LB's become when the DL in front of them is solid. Also, as far as rushing the passer goes, does anyone remember how Bob would blitz? He'd have the LB walk up to the line, showing blitz, and then go...real genius. Hawk is back playing the position he pretty much played now in college in our 3-4 defense, as he was a Middle/Outside Backer, like he'll play now. Nobody truly knows how injured he was last season, as I read that he could barely breath most days, but still played every game, and practice almost all practices.

100%

Sanders defense was way too easy to read. In the Capers world, the LB's will be all over the place, but their initial technique won't "tip" anything. Sometimes both the middle backer will blitz in a cross, called the "Fire X". The LB's have a great deal more flexibility and Don's fire zones will be perfect for quick guys like Hawk and Barnett.

Say what you will about AJ's performance to date, he sure has replaced (and made everybody forget) Robert Thomas.

[cheesner]

I am not sure why people say he has a limited ceiling. He is one of the most athletic LBs in football.

Aaron Curry, who came out this year, is thought of as an amazing athlete and sure thing in the NFL. Do people even remember that Hawk is more athletic and had better numbers than Curry? Although Hawk is a bit slower in the 40, he is quicker in the agility drills which is more important for a LB. Couple that with a love for the game and top notch dedication and you have a recipe for success.

Give Hawk another year to emerge as a superstar. There is something wrong with his field production and the only thing it can be, is scheme, coaching, or both.

When a Ferrari driven by Kyle Bush comes in last in a road race vrs armatures in Yugos, something is wrong. And I think the problem is he had a bad map.

[Waldo]

Not a bust, definitely a disappointment though. This has to be the year for him to prove he is a playmaker. It was a real let down for him to be basically invincible (except for the 1st game) after moving to the MLB spot last year.

did you mean invisible? or invincible?

Oops, ya invisible

Sliding to the middle was his shot to play the Barnett role and be the one to have everything funneled to him. It didn't work out that way. A weak DL in front of him and various injuries resulted in a very mediocre performance.

If our DL rotation is as strong as it looks like it should be, I expect big years from all the linebackers.

You cannot forget, there was nobody doing the funneling on the backside. But Chillar can cover. So he is good.

Hawk played MLB like a WLB. He has learned to hesitate a half second. Good for WLB, where he needs to be in place to prevent the cutback or cut outside, and can't get sucked into the playside. But he played that way at MLB and it showed.

Bishop and Hodge play MLB like college MLB's. They attack before the back declares. Big flashy plays result, as the overpusuit is great for the TFL's. And getting burned.

Barnett plays MLB like a pro MLB. His reaction is almost exactly when the back declares, thus rarely does he under or over pursue a play.

[CaptainKickass]

Say what you will about AJ's performance to date, he sure has replaced (and made everybody forget) Robert Thomas.

Who?

(just illustrating your point)




When a Ferrari driven by Kyle Bush comes in last in a road race vrs armatures in Yugos, something is wrong. And I think the problem is he had a bad map.

Bwahahahahah! Now that's painting a picture with words!


I agree that Hawk has not been a bust or even a disappointment. I think everyone - including myself - is hoping that one of these younger guys on D becomes the defacto "leader" as a result of their play. Ala - Girlacher.

Is Hawk that guy? Nope. Can he be? I contend that it's really up to him.

.

[Packnut]

This season defines Mr Hawk. If any one player has to step up on D, it's A.J.

He should be feeling the weight of the world on his shoulders cause he was paid a ton of cash and bottom line is he has under-prefomed that contract period.

[hoosier]

Its funny how many people have seemingly changed their view on this now years later after the draft because he was the "#5" pick, when a few years ago most were content with a starting ready guy that probably wasn't going to suck, even at #5. Still looking at that god awful draft though, he was one of the better players to come out of the first round.

Agree with most of what you're saying but have to say that there are many shades of grey between "Bust," "Starter" and "HOFer." I think most people had expectations that Hawk would fall somewhere in between the latter two, hopefully closer to the third than the second. I don't recall anyone holding unrealistic expectations of epic greatness for the guy, and I think it's possible to be disappointed in his performace so far without holding him to unrealistic standards. During his first three years he's been little more than an average starter. Not someone you need to replace but someone to build a defense around either.

[HarveyWallbangers]

In a word, no.

He's not been the defensive superstar we hoped for, but he's a good hand on the field. He gets the job done and knows what to do.

Hawk has improved every season and is very comparable, if not better than Greenway and Sims.

I agree with your sentiment, but I wouldn't say he's gotten better every year. He was solid his rookie year. I thought he was good (not great, but good) his second year. He wasn't good last year. I'm blaming it on his injuries. I expect him to be a good player this year.

[Freak Out]

Hawk is no bust.....how can anyone be considered a bust when they've started from day one? He is going to just get better from here on out barring injury.

[sharpe1027]

Since everyone's definition of a bust is different, I will just say this. If Hawk is considered a bust, then most players are busts.

[mraynrand]

I think the 'bust' under consideration here is based on hawk being a #5 pick. Is he a bust at #5?

[sharpe1027]

I think the 'bust' under consideration here is based on hawk being a #5 pick. Is he a bust at #5?

A bust is a "failure".

Curtis Enis was a 5th pick failure. Hawk is not a failure.

[pack4to84]

at 5 the player is expected to start and play near a pro-bowl level. Hawk too me has done that. His first and second season he was near pro-bowl level. His third season was injury plagued. Like Waldo said looking at who the Packers would have draft if not taking Hawk. The Packers made the right decision with the pick.
I can't wait until the preseason starts to see how he develops under Capers. Capers is a teacher type coach so I expect Hawk to improve the longer he is under him.

[CaptainKickass]

at 5 the player is expected to start and play near a pro-bowl level. Hawk too me has done that. His first and second season he was near pro-bowl level. His third season was injury plagued. Like Waldo said looking at who the Packers would have draft if not taking Hawk. The Packers made the right decision with the pick.
I can't wait until the preseason starts to see how he develops under Capers. Capers is a teacher type coach so I expect Hawk to improve the longer he is under him.

And a lit fire under all the LB's asses courtesy of Coach Greene couldn't really hurt anything either.

[mraynrand]

I think the 'bust' under consideration here is based on hawk being a #5 pick. Is he a bust at #5?

A bust is a "failure".

Curtis Enis was a 5th pick failure. Hawk is not a failure.

I was thinking more along the lines of Buckley. Sort of a bust for where he was picked, but still managed to have a reasonable successful NFL career. Enis and Mandarich were total failures.

But that #5 pick position kinda skews things in your head. For example, how would Driver's career be looked at had he been a #5 pick overall?

I actually, think Hawk will have a good career - maybe the LB equivalent of Donald Driver. That wold be pretty good stuff, but at the #5 pick, you're kinda hoping for an LT, for example.

[PlantPage55]

Yes, you are looking for a Hall-of-Famer with the #5 pick. But how many of them turn out like that, in reality?

What we got is way better than what MOST teams get, out of players in the top 10 picks of the draft.

[Fritz]

It would just suck to have a last name like "Enis."

That's all I'm sayin'.

[sharpe1027]

I was thinking more along the lines of Buckley. Sort of a bust for where he was picked, but still managed to have a reasonable successful NFL career. Enis and Mandarich were total failures.

But that #5 pick position kinda skews things in your head. For example, how would Driver's career be looked at had he been a #5 pick overall?

I actually, think Hawk will have a good career - maybe the LB equivalent of Donald Driver. That wold be pretty good stuff, but at the #5 pick, you're kinda hoping for an LT, for example.

Sounds like you are talking about a mild dissappointment rather than a failure/bust. :wink:

[wist43]

He is what I thought he would be - a JAG.

Will probably start every game for the next 7 years, and make a bunch of tackles. Just don't expect him to make any plays.

[woodbuck27]

He is what I thought he would be - a JAG.

Will probably start every game for the next 7 years, and make a bunch of tackles. Just don't expect him to make any plays.

Your one of the best on observing our team at the LBer position wist43.

He looked pretty special in College and made a ton of plays there but that leap to the NFL is huge. Was he worth a fith pick? When you come right down to it he's a WSL or Nick Barnett refused to let go of his status in the middle.

This is a huge season for AJ Hawk and for Ted Thompsons credibility with picking him. Is that fair to say even? I re-call a lot of us expected and hoped TT would choose Hawk. It just seems to me that his speed in the college game didn't translate as well to the NFL.

He did appear right on in his rookie season too. I have Packer fan friends back in the Maritimes that were really high on his play in year one.
GO PACK GO!

[cheesner]

He is what I thought he would be - a JAG.

Will probably start every game for the next 7 years, and make a bunch of tackles. Just don't expect him to make any plays.

Your one of the best on observing our team at the LBer position wist43.

He looked pretty special in College and made a ton of plays there but that leap to the NFL is huge. Was he worth a fith pick? When you come right down to it he's a WSL or Nick Barnett refused to let go of his status in the middle.

This is a huge season for AJ Hawk and for Ted Thompsons credibility with picking him. Is that fair to say even? I re-call a lot of us expected and hoped TT would choose Hawk. It just seems to me that his speed in the college game didn't translate as well to the NFL.

He did appear right on in his rookie season too. I have Packer fan friends back in the Maritimes that were really high on his play in year one.
GO PACK GO!
It is one thing to judge Hawk on his play and another issue to judge TT on the pick. Hawk's judgement should entirely be based his play. In rating TT on drafting Hawk, you not only have to look at his play, but also on who TT could have drafted. I think there is a fair shot, that if the draft was reheld today, TT would take Hawk again. In that respect, you have to give the draft pick an 'A' for a grade. There just wasn't much better drafted.

Ideally, if I redid the draft, I would have traded down for picks the next year and taken Demeco Ryans late in the 1st. But it is difficult to criticize a pick because in hindsight you can come up with a plan that was just a little better. Also, no telling if I would have found a trading partner or not.

[woodbuck27]

He is what I thought he would be - a JAG.

Will probably start every game for the next 7 years, and make a bunch of tackles. Just don't expect him to make any plays.

Your one of the best on observing our team at the LBer position wist43.

He looked pretty special in College and made a ton of plays there but that leap to the NFL is huge. Was he worth a fith pick? When you come right down to it he's a WSL or Nick Barnett refused to let go of his status in the middle.

This is a huge season for AJ Hawk and for Ted Thompsons credibility with picking him. Is that fair to say even? I re-call a lot of us expected and hoped TT would choose Hawk. It just seems to me that his speed in the college game didn't translate as well to the NFL.

He did appear right on in his rookie season too. I have Packer fan friends back in the Maritimes that were really high on his play in year one.
GO PACK GO!
It is one thing to judge Hawk on his play and another issue to judge TT on the pick. Hawk's judgement should entirely be based his play. In rating TT on drafting Hawk, you not only have to look at his play, but also on who TT could have drafted. I think there is a fair shot, that if the draft was reheld today, TT would take Hawk again. In that respect, you have to give the draft pick an 'A' for a grade. There just wasn't much better drafted.

Ideally, if I redid the draft, I would have traded down for picks the next year and taken Demeco Ryans late in the 1st. But it is difficult to criticize a pick because in hindsight you can come up with a plan that was just a little better. Also, no telling if I would have found a trading partner or not.

I'm not judging TT on that pick and I won't disagree with your analysis there cheesner.

[Freak Out]

I have Packer fan friends back in the Maritimes that were really high on his play in year one.

Lot's of love for the Green and Gold back in the Maritimes?

[woodbuck27]

I have Packer fan friends back in the Maritimes that were really high on his play in year one.

Lot's of love for the Green and Gold back in the Maritimes?

Several of my friends and acquaintances are Packer fans Freak Out. We enjoy our Packer game get togethers especially with a few drinks of dark rum and pepsi over rocks. I do the mixing :D to ensure the bottle lasts an entire game.

GO PACKERS!

[Fritz]

I think the fact he looked the part - ugly mofo, stupid crazy hair - is what gave people the big expectations.

Being drafted at #5 is less important than the looks and the name - fuggin' A.J. Hawk. If you're writing a football novel for middle school boys you couldn't come up with a better name.

If he had looked like Clay Aiken and had a name like Timmy Toole no one would be upset about his production.

[Gunakor]

100%

Sanders defense was way too easy to read. In the Capers world, the LB's will be all over the place, but their initial technique won't "tip" anything. Sometimes both the middle backer will blitz in a cross, called the "Fire X". The LB's have a great deal more flexibility and Don's fire zones will be perfect for quick guys like Hawk and Barnett.

Say what you will about AJ's performance to date, he sure has replaced (and made everybody forget) Robert Thomas.

Didn't Hawk replace Paris Lenon? Or did Lenon play on the other side that Pop has been playing? I can't remember...

[Gunakor]

He is what I thought he would be - a JAG.

Will probably start every game for the next 7 years, and make a bunch of tackles. Just don't expect him to make any plays.

I fully expect him to make plays. I've always looked at Hawk as a playmaker who was bound to a scheme that did not utilize his strengths. Hawk is more than a block eater/road clearer, and I've always thought this going way back to OSU. I think as soon as Hawk is actually put in a position to make plays, and is specifically asked to make plays, we'll see the playmaker I envisioned Hawk to be.

[KYPack]

100%

Sanders defense was way too easy to read. In the Capers world, the LB's will be all over the place, but their initial technique won't "tip" anything. Sometimes both the middle backer will blitz in a cross, called the "Fire X". The LB's have a great deal more flexibility and Don's fire zones will be perfect for quick guys like Hawk and Barnett.

Say what you will about AJ's performance to date, he sure has replaced (and made everybody forget) Robert Thomas.

Didn't Hawk replace Paris Lenon? Or did Lenon play on the other side that Pop has been playing? I can't remember...

I thought Thomas was the Wil, but I did just make a WAG, Gun.

Lenon was the SAM, I thought?

Neither one of 'em could run.

Man, I don't even want to look it up.

We'll go with yer version, that's fine w/me.

[Deputy Nutz]

Hawks problem isn't speed, it is the same problem that every linebacker in the NFL currently has, if the d-line doesn't eat up blocks, linebacker gets consumed at the point. Especially last year. All the linebackers played like garbage last season, Hawk had a pretty good first month, last year, but the loss of Jenkins, and KGB falling apart and cut, and top it with his own injuries made last season very difficult for him.

I think this might be his make or break year. He is going to be asked to make a lot of tackles and to fly around the field. he is going to have to make quick reads and then knife through at the point of attack. When the outside linebackers are playing up on the line him and Barnett should be tackling machines. If not then is there really a reason to sign him going forward with this defense?

Hawk is one of the better linebackers in coverage, especially in the flat on running backs. Again, any linebacker matched up down field on a tight end is at disadvantage.

[ThunderDan]

Hawks problem isn't speed, it is the same problem that every linebacker in the NFL currently has, if the d-line doesn't eat up blocks, linebacker gets consumed at the point. Especially last year. All the linebackers played like garbage last season, Hawk had a pretty good first month, last year, but the loss of Jenkins, and KGB falling apart and cut, and top it with his own injuries made last season very difficult for him.

I think this might be his make or break year. He is going to be asked to make a lot of tackles and to fly around the field. he is going to have to make quick reads and then knife through at the point of attack. When the outside linebackers are playing up on the line him and Barnett should be tackling machines. If not then is there really a reason to sign him going forward with this defense?

Hawk is one of the better linebackers in coverage, especially in the flat on running backs. Again, any linebacker matched up down field on a tight end is at disadvantage.

That is a great post. :!:

Same thing happened to Urlacher when Chicago let Ted Washington go early in his career. All of sudden a guard was able to get a hat on him and he disappeared for long stretches of game.

[wist43]

He is what I thought he would be - a JAG.

Will probably start every game for the next 7 years, and make a bunch of tackles. Just don't expect him to make any plays.

I fully expect him to make plays. I've always looked at Hawk as a playmaker who was bound to a scheme that did not utilize his strengths. Hawk is more than a block eater/road clearer, and I've always thought this going way back to OSU. I think as soon as Hawk is actually put in a position to make plays, and is specifically asked to make plays, we'll see the playmaker I envisioned Hawk to be.

I'll agree that the scheme held him back... but that doesn't account for the fact that he was involved in virtually no turnovers or game changing plays.

How many forced fumbles??? How many Int's??? How many recovered fumbles??? How many sacks??? Average in coverage, average in taking on and shedding, slow to diagnose, etc...

Even in a scheme as pathetic as what the Packers were running, a half way decent LB should at least be involved in a few plays.

Maybe Hawk will be more effective in a 3-4... he better be. I expect he should have a handful of sacks - but he's not a pass rusher; I expect he may be involved in a few more turnover plays - but, he's not really above average at anything.

Again, he's a JAG. LB'ers like Hawk are a dime/dozen... he's not a bust, but he's certainly not worth the 5th pick.

I wanted Mario, or Davis, or trade down... Mario has proven to be a stud; Davis is being wasted in the mess that is the 49ers.

[Tarlam!]

I wanted Mario, or Davis, or trade down... Mario has proven to be a stud; Davis is being wasted in the mess that is the 49ers.

Many wanted Mario and they all knew he'd be gone by pick 3 at the latest.

I remember some wanting Davis. He has conributed to the mess in SFC; wasn't he sent to the showers early during practice and told not to come bak until his attitude changed by Mike S., the new HC?

I do recall his huge ego and some of the things he's jibbered since being in the NFL. I'm glad we didn't pick him.

[wist43]

I wanted Mario, or Davis, or trade down... Mario has proven to be a stud; Davis is being wasted in the mess that is the 49ers.

Many wanted Mario and they all knew he'd be gone by pick 3 at the latest.

I remember some wanting Davis. He has conributed to the mess in SFC; wasn't he sent to the showers early during practice and told not to come bak until his attitude changed by Mike S., the new HC?

I do recall his huge ego and some of the things he's jibbered since being in the NFL. I'm glad we didn't pick him.

I agree about Davis... he did come with some red flags; and he did run his mouth to the point of making him almost undraftable for the Packers.

We, as armchair QB's and GM's can't look these kids in the eye... so on matters of character, we can't make the call... unless the guy is complete knob.

Strictly from a physical talent standpoint... Davis would have been much more worthy of the 5th pick over Hawk though. And I can say that I did watch a few SF games and that he was rarely if ever targetted in the passing game - why draft a guy at TE with the 6th pick, and then essentially turn him into a glorified offensive linemen??? Yes, he bitched his way into the doghouse, but to a certain extent, I can't blame him.

As for Williams... speculation was he'd be gone by 5, but you have to remember that the consensus #1 pick was Reggie Bush. My contention was that if TT thought he was good enough, go ahead and trade up... franchise DE's are rare, and they are worth giving up picks for.

Of course going to a 3-4... we now need LB's and DE's are chaff - who knows, had TT finagled a trade to land Williams, we most likely wouldn't be changing schemes today.

[ND72]

He is what I thought he would be - a JAG.

Will probably start every game for the next 7 years, and make a bunch of tackles. Just don't expect him to make any plays.

I fully expect him to make plays. I've always looked at Hawk as a playmaker who was bound to a scheme that did not utilize his strengths. Hawk is more than a block eater/road clearer, and I've always thought this going way back to OSU. I think as soon as Hawk is actually put in a position to make plays, and is specifically asked to make plays, we'll see the playmaker I envisioned Hawk to be.

I'll agree that the scheme held him back... but that doesn't account for the fact that he was involved in virtually no turnovers or game changing plays.

How many forced fumbles??? How many Int's??? How many recovered fumbles??? How many sacks??? Average in coverage, average in taking on and shedding, slow to diagnose, etc...

Even in a scheme as pathetic as what the Packers were running, a half way decent LB should at least be involved in a few plays.

Maybe Hawk will be more effective in a 3-4... he better be. I expect he should have a handful of sacks - but he's not a pass rusher; I expect he may be involved in a few more turnover plays - but, he's not really above average at anything.

Again, he's a JAG. LB'ers like Hawk are a dime/dozen... he's not a bust, but he's certainly not worth the 5th pick.

I wanted Mario, or Davis, or trade down... Mario has proven to be a stud; Davis is being wasted in the mess that is the 49ers.


I know Mario has made strides, but I wouldn't refer to him as a stud yet. Davis has pretty much never been good, so I wouldn't blame that on the 49er mess, he's probably a bigger mess.

As far as how many plays has Hawk made....how many "big plays" did any of our LB's make in Bob's scheme? You could have put any dummy out there at Poop's position and gotten the same out of him. Barnett SHOULD have made more plays in that defense, because the MLB is the funnel that was that defense. Hawk was never used the way he should. Having him walk to the line to show his blitz was stupid, how do you expect a linebacker to get past a OL guy without a running start, you need to use their speed on blitz's, not just run right into a guard. Our defense was stupid, and didn't use any of our strengths except press man, and Kampmann, which even he wasn't producing because NOBODY else was. When Jenkins got hurt, it really hurt us, especially Hawk who typically was behind him.

[ND72]

[quote=wist43]I wanted Mario, or Davis, or trade down... Mario has proven to be a stud; Davis is being wasted in the mess that is the 49ers.
Of course going to a 3-4... we now need LB's and DE's are chaff - who knows, had TT finagled a trade to land Williams, we most likely wouldn't be changing schemes today.


and our defense would still be sucking.

[Kiwon]

If Hawk is a bust then we need 10 more busts just like him on defense.

[Waldo]

Here's the deal with Hawk IMO.

The guy is a robot.

He's a little bigger, can run a little faster, is a little stronger, a little more agile, and can jump a little higher than just about every normal linebacker. But he isn't what I would consider freakish at anything aside from perhaps agility. Overall though his Size:Strength:Speed combo isn't that much better than Barnett's. Pound for pound Barnett is stronger and Hawk is faster. At their current weights though they are about equal in speed an strength.

Hawk loves the game and can be counted on to always give it his all.

Hawk is assignment sure and doesn't really make big mistakes. I think that he obsesses on coaching points trying to play perfectly.

Hawk tackles very well.

Hawk covers well.

He is an OK blitzer. I think that he'd be better if he was not #5 overall (like it or not, teams are aware of him in planning and at the line), and put in a better position to succeed at it.

And that's it.

Hawk doesn't pump up the crowd.

Hawk doesn't talk trash to the opponents.

Hawk doesn't have a signature thing like Barnett's chop.

He doesn't play scary.

he doesn't play mean.

He doesn't appear to play with passion.

He is a robot.

It is the fact that IMO Barnett has the most colorful personality on the team, on and off the field, that makes him my favorite player. He plays the part of the BA linebacker that talks smack and backs it up, that is the ringleader of whatever the defense is doing. And unlike a lot of fans, I love it when he whips out his sword.

I think Hawk has it in him to be much better. If he ever gets past the whole robot act and starts to play like a mean, ornery linebacker, he will make his presence felt. Hawk and Jeremy Thompson both could benefit from a month at a supermax prison or some time in a street gang or motorcycle gang.

[Fritz]

Here's the deal with Hawk IMO.

The guy is a robot.

He's a little bigger, can run a little faster, is a little stronger, a little more agile, and can jump a little higher than just about every normal linebacker. But he isn't what I would consider freakish at anything aside from perhaps agility. Overall though his Size:Strength:Speed combo isn't that much better than Barnett's. Pound for pound Barnett is stronger and Hawk is faster. At their current weights though they are about equal in speed an strength.

Hawk loves the game and can be counted on to always give it his all.

Hawk is assignment sure and doesn't really make big mistakes. I think that he obsesses on coaching points trying to play perfectly.

Hawk tackles very well.

Hawk covers well.

He is an OK blitzer. I think that he'd be better if he was not #5 overall (like it or not, teams are aware of him in planning and at the line), and put in a better position to succeed at it.

And that's it.

Hawk doesn't pump up the crowd.

Hawk doesn't talk trash to the opponents.

Hawk doesn't have a signature thing like Barnett's chop.

He doesn't play scary.

he doesn't play mean.

He doesn't appear to play with passion.

He is a robot.

It is the fact that IMO Barnett has the most colorful personality on the team, on and off the field, that makes him my favorite player. He plays the part of the BA linebacker that talks smack and backs it up, that is the ringleader of whatever the defense is doing. And unlike a lot of fans, I love it when he whips out his sword.

I think Hawk has it in him to be much better. If he ever gets past the whole robot act and starts to play like a mean, ornery linebacker, he will make his presence felt. Hawk and Jeremy Thompson both could benefit from a month at a supermax prison or some time in a street gang or motorcycle gang.

Is your wife aware of this, Waldo? :)

[ThunderDan]

Here's the deal with Hawk IMO.

The guy is a robot.

He's a little bigger, can run a little faster, is a little stronger, a little more agile, and can jump a little higher than just about every normal linebacker. But he isn't what I would consider freakish at anything aside from perhaps agility. Overall though his Size:Strength:Speed combo isn't that much better than Barnett's. Pound for pound Barnett is stronger and Hawk is faster. At their current weights though they are about equal in speed an strength.

Hawk loves the game and can be counted on to always give it his all.

Hawk is assignment sure and doesn't really make big mistakes. I think that he obsesses on coaching points trying to play perfectly.

Hawk tackles very well.

Hawk covers well.

He is an OK blitzer. I think that he'd be better if he was not #5 overall (like it or not, teams are aware of him in planning and at the line), and put in a better position to succeed at it.

And that's it.

Hawk doesn't pump up the crowd.

Hawk doesn't talk trash to the opponents.

Hawk doesn't have a signature thing like Barnett's chop.

He doesn't play scary.

he doesn't play mean.

He doesn't appear to play with passion.

He is a robot.

It is the fact that IMO Barnett has the most colorful personality on the team, on and off the field, that makes him my favorite player. He plays the part of the BA linebacker that talks smack and backs it up, that is the ringleader of whatever the defense is doing. And unlike a lot of fans, I love it when he whips out his sword.

I think Hawk has it in him to be much better. If he ever gets past the whole robot act and starts to play like a mean, ornery linebacker, he will make his presence felt. Hawk and Jeremy Thompson both could benefit from a month at a supermax prison or some time in a street gang or motorcycle gang.

The best part about Barnett's samuri chop is when he does it on 2nd down and then the other team gets a first on third down and he looks like a big turd. Or when the Pack is down 14 points and he does it.

I've never liked Barnett but I give him props after the team fell even more apart after his injury in 2008.

[Zool]

I love the signature Barnett chase and drag technique.

[Waldo]

I love the signature Barnett chase and drag technique.

Works a lot better than the signature Chillar - oops, he went that way. These damn lineman keep getting in my way.

Or the signature Poppinga - dammit, well I almost tackled him that time.

Or the signature Bishop - shit, he just cut back again, we'll there he goes, or the oh no, he is running toward the sidelines, I'll never get there in time.

[Zool]

I love the signature Barnett chase and drag technique.

Works a lot better than the signature Chillar - oops, he went that way. These damn lineman keep getting in my way.

Or the signature Poppinga - dammit, well I almost tackled him that time.

Or the signature Bishop - shit, he just cut back again, we'll there he goes, or the oh no, he is running toward the sidelines, I'll never get there in time.

So Hawk has better straight line speed than Barnett? Or is that an out of pads measurement? Always seems like Barnett is running plays down from behind and thats whats allowed him to be successful.

Think Barnett will have a dropoff in tackle stats now that the D isnt designed to funnel runners to him?

[sharpe1027]

Hawk loves the game and can be counted on to always give it his all.
...
He doesn't appear to play with passion.


Waldo,

I think I get what you are saying, but these two statements seemed at odds to me.

What exactly is the difference here? It seems you are splitting hairs. I mean, if the kid is out there playing 100%, is he lacking passion because he doesn't yell and wave his hands in the air?

Now from a entertainment stand point, I get it. I also get the possible advantage of pumping up the crowd and/or your teammates, but I know I'd be pissed if someone said I didn't play with passion just because I wasn't the loudest person on the field.

I think you may lack passion in your posts because you aren't constantly dropping F-bombs and using CAPS...pump it up a notch!! :lol:

[Waldo]

Hawk loves the game and can be counted on to always give it his all.
...
He doesn't appear to play with passion.


Waldo,

I think I get what you are saying, but these two statements seemed at odds to me.

What exactly is the difference here? It seems you are splitting hairs. I mean, if the kid is out there playing 100%, is he lacking passion because he doesn't yell and wave his hands in the air?

Now from a entertainment stand point, I get it. I also get the possible advantage of pumping up the crowd and/or your teammates, but I know I'd be pissed if someone said I didn't play with passion just because I wasn't the loudest person on the field.

I think you may lack passion in your posts because you aren't constantly dropping F-bombs and using CAPS...pump it up a notch!! :lol:

One example that seems fitting is Kampman vs. Allen. Aaron is faster, stronger, smarter, and "tries harder". But he's not a mean ol' asshole that gets in his opponents head like Jared is. And nobody but a few Packers homers will argue that Kamp is better than Jared.

Has nothing to do with "pumping up" and everything do do with approach. Hawk doesn't seem to want to beat his opponents, he seems to not want to get beaten.

The mental side of the game for AJ is to try hard and do his best. AJ doesn't do the whole mind games thing that the good/great ones do.

What makes Urlacher and Lewis great more than anything else, is the amount of respect and fear that they receive from opposing offenses. Some of that is related to their play, some is related to how they carry themselves, on and off the field.

[sharpe1027]

One example that seems fitting is Kampman vs. Allen. Aaron is faster, stronger, smarter, and "tries harder". But he's not a mean ol' asshole that gets in his opponents head like Jared is. And nobody but a few Packers homers will argue that Kamp is better than Jared.

Has nothing to do with "pumping up" and everything do do with approach. Hawk doesn't seem to want to beat his opponents, he seems to not want to get beaten.

The mental side of the game for AJ is to try hard and do his best. AJ doesn't do the whole mind games thing that the good/great ones do.

What makes Urlacher and Lewis great more than anything else, is the amount of respect and fear that they receive from opposing offenses. Some of that is related to their play, some is related to how they carry themselves, on and off the field.

Gotcha. It sounds like I probably just interpreted passion a bit broader than you intended.

I can see the logic, and it is probably very true.

More to play devil's advocate and to offer a little perspective for your position, those particular type of passionate/asshole guys make more the headlines, for themselves, regardless of whether or not they actually do more to win the game for their team. We all love/hate to see those guys, and the media always loves a story about them.

Dominating your opponent strikes more fear than running your mouth and making a few dirty plays. Players that dominate are naturally categorized as playing with an 'edge' because they just seem a step ahead of their opponents. Players that are not dominating naturally seem to have less of an edge.

At first glance, I bet most people would say Reggie White played with "meanness" than Kampman, but I am not so sure it wasn't just that he played better than Kamp.

So, I am not disagreeing that Hawk could benefit from more of an edge, just more cautioning that it is not necessarily all it is made out to be... Maybe with the new staff we'll get a chance to find out. :huh:

[Freak Out]

Hawk and Jeremy Thompson both could benefit from a month at a supermax prison or some time in a street gang or motorcycle gang.

:)

In this day and age you could probably drop the motorcycle gang from that list.

[Fritz]

Maybe Hawk needs to pal around with Ronnie Mexico a little.

[Pugger]

But when Chicago's D line stunk so did Urlacker a couple of years ago. If your D line is lousy it reverberates throughout the rest of your defense.