OUCH! OL At #19

[Packnut]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/9848856/Positional-Power-Rankings:-OL-packages


While I know it's realistic to expect some growing pains with our D, for some strange reason, I think Capers will surprise. Could be kool-aid thinking, but he does have a proven track record in first year improvments.

However, I am seriously concerned about this O-line. We have the best set of WR's in the NFL. We have a QB who should take a huge step up. Grant has proven he can be a good back.

IF MM removes his head from his arse and figures out we DON'T have the guys for a ZB scheme and realizes power football is the all time tried and true blueprint for success, our rookie FB could be a HUGE asset. Johnson is the best blocking back I've seen come out of college in a loooong time.

BUT, I can't stop worrying about this line. The plain fact is where as no GM has been as good at spotting WR talent, very few have been as bad when it comes to O linemen evaluation. The Thompson track record at O line is pretty brutal so far after all the time he's had.

[Brando19]

As you stated, TT is good at finding talent in most positions...but not the O line. That can be seen by not resigning Wahle and Rivera...or at least one of the two. Would have been pretty sweet if we had went after Hutchinson a few years back.

[Packnut]

As you stated, TT is good at finding talent in most positions...but not the O line. That can be seen by not resigning Wahle and Rivera...or at least one of the two. Would have been pretty sweet if we had went after Hutchinson a few years back.

I know that brings up the whole salary cap issue back then but my point was always that there was no plan B except to sign a few clowns that really sucked.

Thompson has many strengths but his biggest weakness is his view of offensive lineman and kickers. He just won't commit big money to those positions if he can avoid it.

After all this time in the Thompson regime, we're still at a point where we're forced to count on a lot of "what ifs and may-be's" when it comes to our O-line. Hell, I'd like to believe that he finally has gotten it right. I hope Sutton is a beast and the other young guys step up.

I don't know, it's taking a whole lot of kool-aid drinking to have any confidence that we're FINALLY headed in the right direction.

[pittstang5]

Let's be fair here. They had to let Wahle go. Wahle got LT money and I think Carolina actually wanted him to play LT, little did they know that he just isn't a LT. Plus with the cap situation at the time, the Packers just didn't have money to be throwing around to resign him. Rivera again got huge money (at least I think he got big money) and look how that turned out...one decent year and then he got hurt and retired or was let go..whatever.

BUT..I do agree with the original post. The O-line is my biggest concern going into this year. I have faith in the Defense. They are going to have mistakes - it's expected with a new scheme...this I can understand and I expect them to not be that good at first. But I am sick of a weak o-line every year. Is it TT or is it the coaching staff? I don't know...don't really care...I just want a decent line.

[pbmax]

Wahle not only got LT money, but Rivera got RT money for RG from the Cowboys and then promptly fell apart. Saying he should have signed one of the two is spitting into the wind. There was no money to do one without either salary cap surgery or pushing the cost forward again. And if he had only been able to afford Rivera, it would have been dead money in less than a year. As it was Sharper was gone when he would not accept a $4 million dollar cut. How well would you have looked upon Thompson if, in a effort to resign Wahle he cut two other starters?

One stumblebum was Sherman's choice for Wahle's replacement (Klemm) and the other was a near minimum signing of O'Dwyer. And exactly what evidence do you site that tells you Thompson won't fork over money for a tackle? He hasn't tried to trim Clifton's salary and he has bumped up Tauscher's.

As for the talent on hand, Colledge is better than advertised, especially in the run game. There needs to be a replacement LT soon, but every team with a long time starter will find itself in this position. Do you expect Thompson to pay starter money for a backup to satisfy your need for knowing who the NEXT left tackle is?

There are several reasonable candidates at RT and I think RG will be fine with Sitton. As for the 19th ranking, I think that reflects more the 6-10 record more than performance. 34 sacks of a rookie starter is not in the 1/3 worst in the league, considering Rodgers number of throws. And while we did not break long runs, the run game was effective (the short yardage unit improved quite a bit), if not game breaking most of the season. The new RT will likely help as will Sitton and, I hope, Spitz at center.

At the end of this year, Thompson will have had to overhaul the OLine from stem to stern. he will do it with young talent, reducing the risk of spending on older players. As the offense has been top six the last two years, there is much less room to complain here than that ranking indicates.

[Fritz]

I'm with PB on all points, but in the past I wondered, like Packnut, about the ZBS. But having read Waldo's posts on the matter, it appears that Clifton and Tauscher simply do not have the skills necessary. Tauscher is hurt and gone, and this is probably Clifton's last year - at least as a Packer. From what I understand, the younger guys are more adept at the ZBS. Thus I think the running game and the pass blocking will be at least a little better than last year, and I think it will improve more - at least the run blocking - next year.

[Packnut]

Let's be fair here. They had to let Wahle go. Wahle got LT money and I think Carolina actually wanted him to play LT, little did they know that he just isn't a LT. Plus with the cap situation at the time, the Packers just didn't have money to be throwing around to resign him. Rivera again got huge money (at least I think he got big money) and look how that turned out...one decent year and then he got hurt and retired or was let go..whatever.

BUT..I do agree with the original post. The O-line is my biggest concern going into this year. I have faith in the Defense. They are going to have mistakes - it's expected with a new scheme...this I can understand and I expect them to not be that good at first. But I am sick of a weak o-line every year. Is it TT or is it the coaching staff? I don't know...don't really care...I just want a decent line.

You may have hit the nail on the head. I know every one loves our line coach, but it maybe time to take a closer look at him.

[Packnut]

I'm with PB on all points, but in the past I wondered, like Packnut, about the ZBS. But having read Waldo's posts on the matter, it appears that Clifton and Tauscher simply do not have the skills necessary. Tauscher is hurt and gone, and this is probably Clifton's last year - at least as a Packer. From what I understand, the younger guys are more adept at the ZBS. Thus I think the running game and the pass blocking will be at least a little better than last year, and I think it will improve more - at least the run blocking - next year.

I firmly believe when you have young guys, the biggest mistake is giving them to much to think about. Ya gotta simplify it. Especially now with all the young guys we have. Go to the power blocking scheme mano on mano.

It's the only thing Sherman was ever good at. The ZBS to me is more of a big play design. To much hit and miss for my taste. Be happy with 3-4 yds a carry and give your QB a manageable 3rd down and distance.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Of course, Green Bay isn't going to be ranked high. They have two projected starters that people have seen little of. It would not surprise me if it was a strength though. I like Clifton, Colledge, and Spitz. Sitton and Barbre have talent. I liked Lang while researching draft prospects. RT is the spot that concerns me.

[KYPack]

Of course, Green Bay isn't going to be ranked high. They have two projected starters that people have seen little of. It would not surprise me if it was a strength though. I like Clifton, Colledge, and Spitz. Sitton and Barbre have talent. I liked Lang while researching draft prospects. RT is the spot that concerns me.

I think our boys are growing into men. Spitz, Colledge, and Moll (who could be gone) just weren't NFL big and strong initially. Now we've got the troops, but I dunno if they will be cohesive enough to mesh right away this season.

I'd like to see them put that "power" series back in. Pull the LG and run him up thru the zero hole. Green made a couple thousand yards with that play & it would play right into our OL guys strength.

We don't run a strict Gibbs ZBS anymore. Let's mix and match and put in plays that work to our guys strength

[CaptainKickass]

I'd like to see them put that "power" series back in. Pull the LG and run him up thru the zero hole. Green made a couple thousand yards with that play & it would play right into our OL guys strength.


Was that the same play(s) that in interviews the players and coaches referred to as the "Stutter Step"?

I remember someone interviewed on camera saying something like "We've been running that stutter step all season long and nobody's stopped us so far.."

[KYPack]

I'd like to see them put that "power" series back in. Pull the LG and run him up thru the zero hole. Green made a couple thousand yards with that play & it would play right into our OL guys strength.


Was that the same play(s) that in interviews the players and coaches referred to as the "Stutter Step"?

I remember someone interviewed on camera saying something like "We've been running that stutter step all season long and nobody's stopped us so far.."

Could be. "Power" series are overloads in the line. The guard is your lead blocker. If the play is to the right, The center and the right guard seal the DT. The RT kicks his man out and the left guard leads thru the zero or two hole in some cases. The back does have to get a rhythmn. he can't take the ball and fire thru the hole, he must pause with a jab step or feint/delay of some type.

The 2000 - 2004 Packers could run the shit out of that play. This bunch here would alo be well suited to run it. Grant has good pace, but he ain't much at breaking tackles. To me, Colledge is perfect for those kinds of plays. He's one of the best downfield pulling guards I've seen. He has weaknesses in his game, but the guy can move and block people.

I'd like to see MM go to this stuff. In his running game, the FB is the lead most of the time. I hate our fullbacks. One can't block and the other can't run. Let's get a big ugly out leading some of our runs.

[swede]

I'd like to see MM go to this stuff. In his running game, the FB is the lead most of the time. I hate our fullbacks. One can't block and the other can't run. Let's get a big ugly out leading some of our runs.

KY- do you think Quinn has enough ugly in him to do the job? I'm thinking the kid might push Henderson for longevity and utility.

And as far as the #19 for the O-line, it aint how you start--it's how you finish!

[wist43]

It's difficult to think you can have that many positions in flux and not expect to be downgraded for it.

Even the positions that are set, LT and LG have warts that come with them... Clifton never has been a good run blocker, and Colledge is wildly inconsistent.

Spitz will play somewhere C/RG... but if it's RG and Wells wins the C job again - that's substandard. Wells is not a starting calibur C IMO.

Let's face it, the Packers have OL issues, and have had for several years.

[KYPack]

I'd like to see MM go to this stuff. In his running game, the FB is the lead most of the time. I hate our fullbacks. One can't block and the other can't run. Let's get a big ugly out leading some of our runs.

KY- do you think Quinn has enough ugly in him to do the job? I'm thinking the kid might push Henderson for longevity and utility.

And as far as the #19 for the O-line, it aint how you start--it's how you finish!

I'm all for it, Swede. By "big ugly", I meant a lineman. I like to block up big bodies with another big body. Our fullbacks suck. Kuhn can block a little, but can't really run. Hall is an awful blocker and he seems to be getting worse with time. Johnson appears to be a good prospect and I see him beating out one of the vet FB's.

Our OLine is #19?
Whatever.
We got a better line than Pittsburgh and they were ranked above us.
The Chargers are #22?
If I was a Charger fan, I'd be screaming about that one.

[mngolf19]

Of course, Green Bay isn't going to be ranked high. They have two projected starters that people have seen little of..

Harv, so do the Vikes.

[Bretsky]

This is about right; with some improvement even if GB can get into the top 12 we will see the playoffs this year :!:

[Packnut]

I'd like to see MM go to this stuff. In his running game, the FB is the lead most of the time. I hate our fullbacks. One can't block and the other can't run. Let's get a big ugly out leading some of our runs.

KY- do you think Quinn has enough ugly in him to do the job? I'm thinking the kid might push Henderson for longevity and utility.

And as far as the #19 for the O-line, it aint how you start--it's how you finish!

I'm all for it, Swede. By "big ugly", I meant a lineman. I like to block up big bodies with another big body. Our fullbacks suck. Kuhn can block a little, but can't really run. Hall is an awful blocker and he seems to be getting worse with time. Johnson appears to be a good prospect and I see him beating out one of the vet FB's.

Our OLine is #19?
Whatever.
We got a better line than Pittsburgh and they were ranked above us.
The Chargers are #22?
If I was a Charger fan, I'd be screaming about that one.


Johnson will be starting. He's a beast. Can flat out knock people on their ass. He also is under-rated at running and catching. LSU had so much talent at the skill positions that he had no chance to display all his talents.

[mraynrand]

Waldo had a really good summary of the O-line a while back in another thread. If I find it I'll link to it


http://cfruelectionradio.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/300px-waldo-magazine-1.jpg

[Patler]

Let's be fair here. They had to let Wahle go. Wahle got LT money and I think Carolina actually wanted him to play LT, little did they know that he just isn't a LT. Plus with the cap situation at the time, the Packers just didn't have money to be throwing around to resign him. Rivera again got huge money (at least I think he got big money) and look how that turned out...one decent year and then he got hurt and retired or was let go..whatever.

BUT..I do agree with the original post. The O-line is my biggest concern going into this year. I have faith in the Defense. They are going to have mistakes - it's expected with a new scheme...this I can understand and I expect them to not be that good at first. But I am sick of a weak o-line every year. Is it TT or is it the coaching staff? I don't know...don't really care...I just want a decent line.

You may have hit the nail on the head. I know every one loves our line coach, but it maybe time to take a closer look at him.

I agree with the basic comment, but I'm not sure "every one loves our line coach".
I have questioned Campen's ascension before. His coaching resume includes 9 years as a high school football coach (4 as DC, 5 as HC), two seasons in the infamous "quality control" position with the Packers, one season as a full assistant line coach, and then he became the offensive line coach the next season. Even more significantly, the Packers made a big deal about being able to teach their zone scheme effectively, that Jagodzinski was one of the few who knew the "secrets", which he would relay to the others who had little to no experience with it. Just one season later, Jagodzinski was gone, Philbin moved from O-line to O Coordinator, and Campen is charged with teaching a bunch of NFL rookies the supposed "secrets" of the zone scheme.

Campen went from coaching high school to the NFL, and after three seasons was put in charge of the O-line, to teaching a scheme he has very little experience with. His assistant, Fontenot has a long NFL career, but no coaching experience. He was a summer intern in 2006 and hung around as an unpaid assistant during the season. The next year he was promoted to the full time assistant line coach position.

The Packers have playing experience in their O-line coaching staff, but not a lot of relevant coaching experience. That inexperience, coupled with the influx of rookie lineman every year, very well could have slowed development of the O-line as a whole and the players individually.

[woodbuck27]

Let's be fair here. They had to let Wahle go. Wahle got LT money and I think Carolina actually wanted him to play LT, little did they know that he just isn't a LT. Plus with the cap situation at the time, the Packers just didn't have money to be throwing around to resign him. Rivera again got huge money (at least I think he got big money) and look how that turned out...one decent year and then he got hurt and retired or was let go..whatever.

BUT..I do agree with the original post. The O-line is my biggest concern going into this year. I have faith in the Defense. They are going to have mistakes - it's expected with a new scheme...this I can understand and I expect them to not be that good at first. But I am sick of a weak o-line every year. Is it TT or is it the coaching staff? I don't know...don't really care...I just want a decent line.

You may have hit the nail on the head. I know every one loves our line coach, but it maybe time to take a closer look at him.

I agree with the basic comment, but I'm not sure "every one loves our line coach".
I have questioned Campen's ascension before. His coaching resume includes 9 years as a high school football coach (4 as DC, 5 as HC), two seasons in the infamous "quality control" position with the Packers, one season as a full assistant line coach, and then he became the offensive line coach the next season. Even more significantly, the Packers made a big deal about being able to teach their zone scheme effectively, that Jagodzinski was one of the few who knew the "secrets", which he would relay to the others who had little to no experience with it. Just one season later, Jagodzinski was gone, Philbin moved from O-line to O Coordinator, and Campen is charged with teaching a bunch of NFL rookies the supposed "secrets" of the zone scheme.

Campen went from coaching high school to the NFL, and after three seasons was put in charge of the O-line, to teaching a scheme he has very little experience with. His assistant, Fontenot has a long NFL career, but no coaching experience. He was a summer intern in 2006 and hung around as an unpaid assistant during the season. The next year he was promoted to the full time assistant line coach position.

The Packers have playing experience in their O-line coaching staff, but not a lot of relevant coaching experience. That inexperience, coupled with the influx of rookie lineman every year, very well could have slowed development of the O-line as a whole and the players individually.

Great thread and a fine post Patler.

[pbmax]

I have questions about Campen's rise to O line coach, but remember:

1. He has played at this level. Short of being a veteran coach, that experience makes up for a lot of training. He can't know all systems, but the basics are already familiar to him. And he spent time practicing a West Coast offense as a player.

2. Philbin, who has put in years as an O line coach with zone blocking (outside of the Packers it was not ZBS) is still there.

3. The Zone Blocking Scheme "secrets" are not really all that secret. Plenty of teams run the plays (the Badgers ran those 4 basic plays for years under Alvarez but it wasn't exclusive). Coaches can pick up additions to their own systems in a year by simply talking to coaches and attending coaching clinic/seminars. Losing Jags after a year may not have helped, but it wasn't crushing. And of course there is endless tape of the offense in action.

4. Alex Gibbs has been teaching this system as a consultant/part time coach since he left Denver (Atlanta and Houston, plus I think one other stop).

My questions are did he demonstrate the qualities to be an NFL assistant in just one year as an assistant's assistant? One measuring stick might be Jon Gruden. Gruden was an offensive quality control guy for a couple of years prior to being the receivers coach, and apparently it is a jump that works.

Compared to Chucky, Campen had one additional level and year of experience as a coach. But the proof is in the puding. The O Line needs to continue to get better.

[Packnut]

Let's be fair here. They had to let Wahle go. Wahle got LT money and I think Carolina actually wanted him to play LT, little did they know that he just isn't a LT. Plus with the cap situation at the time, the Packers just didn't have money to be throwing around to resign him. Rivera again got huge money (at least I think he got big money) and look how that turned out...one decent year and then he got hurt and retired or was let go..whatever.

BUT..I do agree with the original post. The O-line is my biggest concern going into this year. I have faith in the Defense. They are going to have mistakes - it's expected with a new scheme...this I can understand and I expect them to not be that good at first. But I am sick of a weak o-line every year. Is it TT or is it the coaching staff? I don't know...don't really care...I just want a decent line.

You may have hit the nail on the head. I know every one loves our line coach, but it maybe time to take a closer look at him.

I agree with the basic comment, but I'm not sure "every one loves our line coach".
I have questioned Campen's ascension before. His coaching resume includes 9 years as a high school football coach (4 as DC, 5 as HC), two seasons in the infamous "quality control" position with the Packers, one season as a full assistant line coach, and then he became the offensive line coach the next season. Even more significantly, the Packers made a big deal about being able to teach their zone scheme effectively, that Jagodzinski was one of the few who knew the "secrets", which he would relay to the others who had little to no experience with it. Just one season later, Jagodzinski was gone, Philbin moved from O-line to O Coordinator, and Campen is charged with teaching a bunch of NFL rookies the supposed "secrets" of the zone scheme.

Campen went from coaching high school to the NFL, and after three seasons was put in charge of the O-line, to teaching a scheme he has very little experience with. His assistant, Fontenot has a long NFL career, but no coaching experience. He was a summer intern in 2006 and hung around as an unpaid assistant during the season. The next year he was promoted to the full time assistant line coach position.

The Packers have playing experience in their O-line coaching staff, but not a lot of relevant coaching experience. That inexperience, coupled with the influx of rookie lineman every year, very well could have slowed development of the O-line as a whole and the players individually.


My bad. When I said "everyone" I should have said the local media. I've never seen one article question his ability or point any finger of blame at him. It's always about MM for having no continuity or TT for lack of talent.

[mraynrand]

I have questions about Campen's rise to O line coach, but remember:

1. He has played at this level. Short of being a veteran coach, that experience makes up for a lot of training. He can't know all systems, but the basics are already familiar to him. And he spent time practicing a West Coast offense as a player.

2. Philbin, who has put in years as an O line coach with zone blocking (outside of the Packers it was not ZBS) is still there.

3. The Zone Blocking Scheme "secrets" are not really all that secret. Plenty of teams run the plays (the Badgers ran those 4 basic plays for years under Alvarez but it wasn't exclusive). Coaches can pick up additions to their own systems in a year by simply talking to coaches and attending coaching clinic/seminars. Losing Jags after a year may not have helped, but it wasn't crushing. And of course there is endless tape of the offense in action.

4. Alex Gibbs has been teaching this system as a consultant/part time coach since he left Denver (Atlanta and Houston, plus I think one other stop).

My questions are did he demonstrate the qualities to be an NFL assistant in just one year as an assistant's assistant? One measuring stick might be Jon Gruden. Gruden was an offensive quality control guy for a couple of years prior to being the receivers coach, and apparently it is a jump that works.

Compared to Chucky, Campen had one additional level and year of experience as a coach. But the proof is in the puding. The O Line needs to continue to get better.

Chucky drove a mean golf cart.

[Patler]

I have questions about Campen's rise to O line coach, but remember:

1. He has played at this level. Short of being a veteran coach, that experience makes up for a lot of training. He can't know all systems, but the basics are already familiar to him. And he spent time practicing a West Coast offense as a player.

2. Philbin, who has put in years as an O line coach with zone blocking (outside of the Packers it was not ZBS) is still there.

3. The Zone Blocking Scheme "secrets" are not really all that secret. Plenty of teams run the plays (the Badgers ran those 4 basic plays for years under Alvarez but it wasn't exclusive). Coaches can pick up additions to their own systems in a year by simply talking to coaches and attending coaching clinic/seminars. Losing Jags after a year may not have helped, but it wasn't crushing. And of course there is endless tape of the offense in action.

4. Alex Gibbs has been teaching this system as a consultant/part time coach since he left Denver (Atlanta and Houston, plus I think one other stop).

My questions are did he demonstrate the qualities to be an NFL assistant in just one year as an assistant's assistant? One measuring stick might be Jon Gruden. Gruden was an offensive quality control guy for a couple of years prior to being the receivers coach, and apparently it is a jump that works.

Compared to Chucky, Campen had one additional level and year of experience as a coach. But the proof is in the puding. The O Line needs to continue to get better.

If playing long and playing well makes a good coach, Bart Starr should have won Super Bowls. I personally believe most coaches become better from dealing with more and more players, with different attitudes and different abilities. A lot of experienced players make bad coaches and vice versa.

Sure Philbin was/is there, but he can't spend all the breakout sessions with them. The two in charge of the O-line had a grand total of 2 years as the "quality control coach", 1 years as a regular assistant line coach and 1 year as an unpaid assistant. That was the sum total of their coaching experience above high school. Then look at the number of young O-linemen to be trained.

I have never believed there were significant "secrets", which is why I used the " "s. I just remember what a big deal the Packers made about it the first MM year, and a year later they are willing to turn it all over to neophyte coaches.

John Gruden coached five years in college, and one year as QC with the 49ers before coming to the Packers.

I'm not suggesting it can't work out. I am suggesting that with two coaches with little coaching experience and a lot of very young O-linemen at the time, it's conceivable that their development may have been slower than it would have been with a more experienced coaching staff.

[Waldo]

I'm with PB on all points, but in the past I wondered, like Packnut, about the ZBS. But having read Waldo's posts on the matter, it appears that Clifton and Tauscher simply do not have the skills necessary. Tauscher is hurt and gone, and this is probably Clifton's last year - at least as a Packer. From what I understand, the younger guys are more adept at the ZBS. Thus I think the running game and the pass blocking will be at least a little better than last year, and I think it will improve more - at least the run blocking - next year.

I firmly believe when you have young guys, the biggest mistake is giving them to much to think about. Ya gotta simplify it. Especially now with all the young guys we have. Go to the power blocking scheme mano on mano.

It's the only thing Sherman was ever good at. The ZBS to me is more of a big play design. To much hit and miss for my taste. Be happy with 3-4 yds a carry and give your QB a manageable 3rd down and distance.

Seriously, we've been running our blocking scheme now going on 4 years, and it still is crazy voodoo to you?

Zone blocking is MORE basic than man blocking. Players are taught it in HS, college, and pretty much every pro team runs some zone plays. There are only 4 of them in the normal pro playbook.

Some pro teams use zone running as a changeup play (like a draw).

Others use it as a base and use other types as a changeup.

"ZBS" teams get that name not by the playcalling, but by draft day choices.

Build a line like a ZBS team, and the 4 standard zone plays are the running plays that the team probably runs best.

[KYPack]

Waldo is right, of course, but with some qualification. Yes, the ZBS has been around for a long time now, and is a part of most team's repertoire. Zone Tight Right and left and Zone Wide Right & Left are the 4 basic plays of any ZBS. But, you must add the counters. Each team has 6-7 counter plays to each side, to nail the defenses that try to overload the play side. This gives you about 16 - 18 plays in the whole ZBS playbook. You make your living with the basic Zone tight-wide plays, but you break the D with the counters. Since the Pack has installed the ZBS in '06, I could count the number of effective counters that went for long gains on one hand and have a finger or thumb left over. Denver in it's ZBS heyday probably broke more counter plays in a game than we have popped in 3 seasons.

The Packers have not run the strict Alex Gibbs ZBS since Jags left after the '06 season. They run a hybrid. In the Gibbs system, all the OLineman pivot a full 90 degrees and then rule block to the play side. There was a problem with the Packers doing this. Neither Tauscher or Clifton could really do it. So when Jags split Campen/Philben modified the Packer lineman's turn. Our guys make a 45 degree pivot to the play side. It's still ZBS style, but our modification of it.

That's OK, too. Most teams have junked the strict Gibbs ZBS and added their own wrinkles to their blocking schemes. We'll see how the Texans do this season with the old system. By my reckoning, they are the last team running just the Gibbs ZBS in the league.

I'd like to see us rev up our rushing attack with our hybrid ZBS. I like what indy runs. They zone block most of the time on runs. But they change it up. They stress pass blocking and may go ZBS for a run and also run Power Gap the next play. We've got an experienced bunch on the field now. The Gibbs ZBS and our hybrid version of it are old hat. Let's have our brain trust run some plays that take advantage of our guys' strengths. Let's be new and fresh and run the ball again without the D knowing exactly what we are gonna do every play.

[pbmax]

If playing long and playing well makes a good coach, Bart Starr should have won Super Bowls. I personally believe most coaches become better from dealing with more and more players, with different attitudes and different abilities. A lot of experienced players make bad coaches and vice versa.
All excellent points, but for Bart Starr, Forrest Gregg and, in baseball, Ted Williams, they were being asked to be Head Coach or Manager, not QB coach, O Line coach or batting instructor. A completely different set of skills were necessary. In fact, one of Starr's weaknesses was as GM, a talent Campen doesn't need to have. And that might be another point in Campen's favor. Even though unlike Chucky his main experience was in high school, he was the head coach there.

[Merlin]

Knowing what we know of our own offensive line, isn't it more shocking that we are rated so high on this list? Outside of Clifton & Tauscher, what other lineman have been starters for any length of time the past 4 seasons? Wells maybe, otherwise it's been musical chairs for this line. It has been going into every camp the past 4 seasons, why should this one be any different? Even at tackle we have had injuries with those two. I think this season is make or break for a lot of the guys on this OL.

I think a lot of peoples jobs are going to hinge on how well this offensive line does. Defensively there will be some pain with the switch, so much will be forgiven, offensively, 4 years of this, a 5th won't go over so well. Unless the entire Packer's organization has a "we like who we have here" mentality, then ultimately it's us fans who suffer through 30 years of losing...

[SnakeLH2006]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/9848856/Positional-Power-Rankings:-OL-packages


While I know it's realistic to expect some growing pains with our D, for some strange reason, I think Capers will surprise. Could be kool-aid thinking, but he does have a proven track record in first year improvments.

However, I am seriously concerned about this O-line. We have the best set of WR's in the NFL. We have a QB who should take a huge step up. Grant has proven he can be a good back.

IF MM removes his head from his arse and figures out we DON'T have the guys for a ZB scheme and realizes power football is the all time tried and true blueprint for success, our rookie FB could be a HUGE asset. Johnson is the best blocking back I've seen come out of college in a loooong time.

BUT, I can't stop worrying about this line. The plain fact is where as no GM has been as good at spotting WR talent, very few have been as bad when it comes to O linemen evaluation. The Thompson track record at O line is pretty brutal so far after all the time he's had.

I have to agree with everything Packnut posted here. The OL is a joke. Lots of draft picks...not much progress.