What factors are needed for Vick to sign?

[Patler]

Not just with the Packers, but with any team? Obviously, the locker room needs to be accepting. Probably a team like GB, where fans have a lower PETA compassion would help. These are sort of givens. Additionally, I think:

- Vick needs to have low income expectations, maybe only slightly above minimum.
- Team and Vick have to agree to a short term, maybe 1 or 2 years only.
- Vick can't expect much of a signing bonus.
- Vick has to be willing to play other than QB, and perhaps return kicks. Can you imagine Michael Vick returning kickoffs?

What other factors are there?

[MichiganPackerFan]

- Vick needs to have low income expectations, maybe only slightly above minimum.


I can't remember: does Vick have any monumental financial liabilities outstanding, possibly owed to Atlanta or elsewhere?

Overall, I believe the key to his return is that Vick demonstrates a genuine sense of humility for what has occurred and a confidence and motivation to progress positively both off the field and on. I think teams also need to be convinced that he's the same tremendous athlete he was two years ago and that the rust will be easily removed.

[Chevelle2]

-Small town where the media coverage won't be as intense (such as in NY)

-Loyal fanbase


And, regarding the Packers, it sounds bad but Flynn and Brohm are gonna have to suck tonight.

[Brando19]

-Small town where the media coverage won't be as intense (such as in NY)

-Loyal fanbase


And, regarding the Packers, it sounds bad but Flynn and Brohm are gonna have to suck tonight.

I'm all for signing Vick. As Patler said, Vick returning kicks...playing some WR...even the wildcat scheme...all that is very exciting and would keep defenses on their toes.

[pbmax]

He cannot truly play a single position outside of QB. He is not a RB, H-back or WR. He will not play on special teams. So you must be able to carry him as a QB and the rest is change of pace. He probably is not physically ready for QB and he won't know your system (he did do West Coast under Mora but had some of his worst seasons) so he will need to be the 3rd QB.

In Green Bay, that means either some multi-position players need to make the roster of single spot guys (eg. Preston over Wells), or you can't have the Special Teams demon, or Brohm or Flynn will need to be dumped.

[Patler]

He will not play on special teams.

You don't think he would return kicks and punts?
I think initially it is how he could contribute the most.

[Bretsky]

For Vick da Prick to garner interest

Near Minimum Wage
One Year Deal
Willingness to play anywhere and accept having no opportunity to start
Strong GM and coach have strong fan support and are willing to take crap

NE is a very good fit

In Green Bay, I'd pass on Vick da prick

We're a young team and IMO we don't need a bad person to enter the locker

Flynn right now is a better passer, and

it's not worth letting Brohm loose and admitting TTT wasted the pick we received for Corey Williams...yet

He belongs on the Raiders with Al Davis

[Bossman641]

- Vick needs to have low income expectations, maybe only slightly above minimum.


I can't remember: does Vick have any monumental financial liabilities outstanding, possibly owed to Atlanta or elsewhere?

I believe Vick has some rather large liabilities outstanding to creditors. I don't know the exact details, but I'm pretty sure the plan Vick and his lawyers put forth was under the assumption he would be making big bucks in the NFL. I don't know what was eventually settled on.

[Bossman641]

Here you go, this is from about a week ago

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/football/nfl/07/31/vick.bankruptcy.ap/index.html


Though a judge ruled that Michael Vick's bankruptcy plan can be sent to creditors to vote on, it remains unclear how the out-of-work quarterback will get the income to pay them.

Vick declined to answer reporters' questions before and after a hearing Friday on his Chapter 11 bankruptcy plan. U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Frank Santoro ruled that the plan can move forward after nobody objected.

The plan now goes to Vick's creditors. After they vote, Santoro will conduct a confirmation hearing on Aug. 27.

Creditors approved Vick's first plan, but Santoro rejected it in April, saying it was not feasible. This time, Vick has proposed selling off more assets and giving creditors a bigger cut of his future income.

But the plan is based largely on Vick's prospective earnings from his goal of returning to the NFL, which still is not a sure thing.

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell conditionally reinstated Vick on Monday, a week after Vick completed his 23-month sentence for running a dogfighting ring. Goodell said Vick can sign with a team and begin playing by week six. Vick said Thursday that he is "getting close" to signing but did not offer any details.

Several NFL teams have said they're not interested in signing the 29-year-old Vick.

"Mr. Vick's time horizon in his professional career is not unlimited," Santoro said.

The judge also postponed action on requests for payment by Vick's attorneys, saying he wanted to wait until all the legal bills are in. A New York-based law firm is asking for $1.5 million after slashing its original request of nearly $2.7 million. A Norfolk firm is seeking $385,000.

Santoro demanded an explanation from one of the New York attorneys, Michael Blumenthal, on how his firm could bill Vick for 8,000 hours of work in less than a year.

"This case is probably the most difficult case I've ever been involved in," Blumenthal said.

He noted that Vick was in the federal penitentiary in Leavenworth, Kan., when the bankruptcy petition was filed in July 2008, making attorney-client communication difficult. And Vick's finances were in shambles, requiring a Herculean effort to track down assets, bank accounts and financial records.

"We started at below ground zero," Blumenthal said, adding that five lawyers at his firm spent substantial time on the case.

Vick's lawyers also endured an acrimonious battle, largely behind the scenes, with one of his major creditors -- Joel Enterprises Inc., the company owned by Vick's former agent. Joel objected at virtually every step on the bankruptcy process before the two sides finally settled their differences.

On another matter, Santoro rejected a motion for Blumenthal's colleague, Peter Ginsberg, to withdraw from the case. The lawyers in Vick's criminal case asked Ginsberg to withdraw after a federal appeals court upheld sanctions against him in an unrelated case in Florida. Ginsberg said he had not been actively involved in Vick's case recently anyway.

Santoro said Ginsberg did nothing wrong in Virginia, and his troubles in Florida had no bearing on Vick's case.

[sharpe1027]

He will not play on special teams.

You don't think he would return kicks and punts?
I think initially it is how he could contribute the most.

Maybe, but I wouldn't count on it.

Kick returns have coverage guys coming full speed in their lanes. The returner follow their blockers and look for a crease. Thus, good kick returners are often north-south guys that setup the return for one good cut and then are gone. They may make one guy miss with a juke, but more important is finding that crease and turning on the burners.

Punt returns are first about knowing how to catching in traffic and when to call for the fair catch. If you are shaky at that, don't bother. Returning is a bonus.

I have no idea on Vick's ability to cach the ball and read the ball's flight in the air. Plus, while Vick's outstanding at setting up a defender that is in front of him and waiting to make the tackle, that doesn't necessarily translate to special teams where guys are coming with a full head of steam and you have to set them up with your own blockers.

Maybe, but I wouldn't expect it.

[pbmax]

He will not play on special teams.

You don't think he would return kicks and punts?
I think initially it is how he could contribute the most.
He might decide to. But given the amount of money he owes, I am not sure he could reasonably take that risk. I guess it depends on the offers he is getting. If he must agree to do it to sign a deal, then he might. But I think from that point forward there would be resistance since what he really wants is another shot at starting as QB.

[SkinBasket]

He will not play on special teams.

You don't think he would return kicks and punts?
I think initially it is how he could contribute the most.
He might decide to. But given the amount of money he owes, I am not sure he could reasonably take that risk. I guess it depends on the offers he is getting. If he must agree to do it to sign a deal, then he might. But I think from that point forward there would be resistance since what he really wants is another shot at starting as QB.

That was the problem with Vick that I had in the other thread. If he can contribute in some way to the team, I guess I'm not going to throw my shoe at the TV every time he takes the field.

If he wants to come to Green Bay simply to start rehabbing his career by laying low and riding the bench, then there's no benefit to the team, especially given the possibility for negative media, sponsor, and fan reaction, not to mention the extra media attention and distraction to his teammates his presence will bring to any team.

Long story short, if he'll play some kind of role on the team other than QB, bring him on at a low price for the year and use him. If he can't, or won't, contribute to the team, it makes less than zero sense to have him around.

[bobblehead]

We must travel in time and change the fact that he ran an illegal dog fighting ring.

[Patler]

He will not play on special teams.

You don't think he would return kicks and punts?
I think initially it is how he could contribute the most.
He might decide to. But given the amount of money he owes, I am not sure he could reasonably take that risk. I guess it depends on the offers he is getting. If he must agree to do it to sign a deal, then he might. But I think from that point forward there would be resistance since what he really wants is another shot at starting as QB.

Well sure he WANTS a shot at QB, but I doubt a long term, high value contract will come his way this season. I think he has to earn his way back into the NFL.

No one knows for sure if he can catch kicks or not, but he was one of the fastest NFL players two seasons ago and has ball carrying ability. All I am suggesting is that he needs to be willing to try.

In my opinion, Vick needs to be willing to sign for little, perhaps with incentives, for a short term, and be willing to do anything asked of him to earn his way back in. If he is going to wait for a starting QB opportunity right off the bat, at a starting QB's compensation, I think he will wait forever, because no one will offer that this year.

By the way, Vick's initial bankruptcy plan was rejected by the bankruptcy court because it relied to heavily on a huge NFL income. The court came out and told him to sell more assets and assume he would have an income only a fraction of what he had before, that it was unrealistic to assume anything else.

[pbmax]

His bankruptcy plan still relies on NFL income, though. And that applies dual pressures, to get back into the league and to get back to QB.

I am certain he will want to limit his exposure on Special Teams. Whether he will be able to avoid them entirely is a function of what kind of contracts he has to choose from. And that might depend on injuries and the ability of current backups to perform. It just takes one team to panic.

[Rastak]

I'm guessing he needs to find a team that doesn;t mind the protests and likes his 75 career QB rating.


Nobody comes to mind. The Vikings seem to like a 75 rating in QBs for some odd reason but they most certainly don't want a bunch of nuts ringing the stadium every Sunday.

Green Bay can handle the protests stuff easily I think. My question is why would center around why they want the 75 rating AND a guy that hasn't played in a helluva long time over what they have?

[]{ilr]3]

EDIT: Opps, already been posted by Rastak:


http://packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?t=17641&start=360



Looks like it just got more interesting:


http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/08/08/packers-interest-in-vick-in-holding-pattern/



Report: High level Packer visited Vick
Posted by Gregg Rosenthal on August 8, 2009 3:01 PM ET
It's possible, even likely, that a handful of NFL teams have extensively researched the possibility of adding Michael Vick.

The Packers, though, are the only ones we know about for sure. And their interest appears more than cursory.

Charles Robinson of Yahoo! Sports said in a recent interview that the Packers sent a "high-level" personnel man to meet with Vick. (Robinson confirmed the news to PFT.)

An interview would appear to be taking a step beyond due diligence, but Tom Silverstein of the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel credits sources that say a signing isn't imminent.

At this stage, Green Bay's interest is in a "holding pattern." Silverstein writes there is no reason to believe that the Packers "will do anything beyond discussing the pros and cons of bringing in one of the most dynamic offensive players of his time."

That could change depending on how Green Bay's young backup quarterbacks develop.

There have been mixed reviews regarding '08 seventh-round pick Matt Flynn's development, but second-round selection Brian Brohm has a lot to prove. He had a miserable rookie year, and there hasn't been any progress reported this offseason. Flynn looks like the backup.

If the Packers aren't comfortable with Flynn and Brohm after watching them in the preseason, they will be well equipped to make a decision about adding Vick.

Vick clearly would have no shot at ever supplanting Aaron Rodgers, but it would be a chance to get back into the NFL and rehab his image. The Packers wouldn't enter into such an agreement lightly, knowing that it could cause a distraction to the team.

Still, the players seem supportive of the move.

After saying that Aaron Rodgers was the clear leader of the team, wideout Donald Driver said that "guys would open their arms up to [Vick] and respect him like a normal man."

Cornerback Charles Woodson says the team is was built to handle any distraction after the Brett Favre saga and sounded open to the possibility. Safety Nick Collins agrees, and is in favor of bringing in Vick.

Collins points out that G.M. Ted Thompson made the unpopular decision to roll with Aaron Rodgers, and it proved correct.

"[Thompson is] going to make the right decision. He's not going to shrimp out because of someone else's opinion. If he thinks it's going to help this team, he's going to pull that trigger," Collins said.

We agree with Collins. If the Packers truly felt that Vick was be the best option available for their backup spot, they have prepared themselves enough to make the move.

Flynn could put the issue to rest with a monster preseason, but the Packers can't be ruled out as a potential Vick landing spot.

It looks like that's the closest thing to a positive NFL job lead that Vick has.

[BEARMAN]

Only a DESPERATE team will sign dogkilla Vick. Are the cheeseheads that desperate ? The media hype will be ENORMOUS! :shock: That could be a good thang, or a bad thang, depends on how the boys upstairs handle it. IMO, the hype and attention will be too distracting to the rest of the team, but hey, if you cheeseheads think you need that dogkilla to win some, go to it ! Good Luck with that move, ... :twisted:

Go BEARS Go !

[Lurker64]

The media hype will be ENORMOUS!

Just like your FONT!

[]{ilr]3]

Only a DESPERATE team will sign dogkilla Vick. Are the cheeseheads that desperate ? The media hype will be ENORMOUS! :shock: That could be a good thang, or a bad thang, depends on how the boys upstairs handle it. IMO, the hype and attention will be too distracting to the rest of the team, but hey, if you cheeseheads think you need that dogkilla to win some, go to it ! Good Luck with that move, ... :twisted:

Go BEARS Go !

Wow, Denny Green was right :soap: . You are who we thought you were! :laugh: An Idiot!

If anyone thinks the Packers are desparate for anything on offense proves you dont know what the hell your talking about. And Vick only adds anouther piece for an old and Decrepit bears defense to deal with.

[Packnut]

Not just with the Packers, but with any team? Obviously, the locker room needs to be accepting. Probably a team like GB, where fans have a lower PETA compassion would help. These are sort of givens. Additionally, I think:

- Vick needs to have low income expectations, maybe only slightly above minimum.
- Team and Vick have to agree to a short term, maybe 1 or 2 years only.
- Vick can't expect much of a signing bonus.
- Vick has to be willing to play other than QB, and perhaps return kicks. Can you imagine Michael Vick returning kickoffs?

What other factors are there?

A lower PETA compassion? It has NOTHING to do with PETA! That FUCKING animal put dogs in a ring so that they could rip each other to shreds while Vick and his buddies BET ON THEM! What the fuck is wrong with some of you? Forgive? Forget? More liberal bullshit.

[Brando19]

Not just with the Packers, but with any team? Obviously, the locker room needs to be accepting. Probably a team like GB, where fans have a lower PETA compassion would help. These are sort of givens. Additionally, I think:

- Vick needs to have low income expectations, maybe only slightly above minimum.
- Team and Vick have to agree to a short term, maybe 1 or 2 years only.
- Vick can't expect much of a signing bonus.
- Vick has to be willing to play other than QB, and perhaps return kicks. Can you imagine Michael Vick returning kickoffs?

What other factors are there?

A lower PETA compassion? It has NOTHING to do with PETA! That FUCKING animal put dogs in a ring so that they could rip each other to shreds while Vick and his buddies BET ON THEM! What the fuck is wrong with some of you? Forgive? Forget? More liberal bullshit.

Agreed...it was horrible...and he served over 2 years for it. Donte Stallworth took a man's life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!! He got 24 days in jail. What's wrong with that picture?

[MJZiggy]

Donte had little choice in the matter--even if he shouldn't have been behind the wheel. His "victim" ran in front of his car. If you think that's punishable by years in jail, I hope it never happens to you. What Vick did was premeditated and profitable. I have a thing against people taking violent power over others be it wives, children or animals. He did not have to treat those dogs the way he did--part of that was for his own entertainment and he'll have to go a long way to prove that he's better than what he did, not just repeatedly, but over a course of time longer than he spent in jail.

It's rare that I agree with Packnut, but in this instance he's spot on.

[Brando19]

Donte had little choice in the matter--even if he shouldn't have been behind the wheel. His "victim" ran in front of his car. If you think that's punishable by years in jail, I hope it never happens to you. What Vick did was premeditated and profitable. I have a thing against people taking violent power over others be it wives, children or animals. He did not have to treat those dogs the way he did--part of that was for his own entertainment and he'll have to go a long way to prove that he's better than what he did, not just repeatedly, but over a course of time longer than he spent in jail.

It's rare that I agree with Packnut, but in this instance he's spot on.

I know what you're saying, Ziggy.

BUT.....Donte was high/drunk. If that was your loved one he hit...would you want him to serve time? Would a sober person have been able to avoid hitting him? That's a question he'll have to live with.

[MJZiggy]

Would a sober person have been able to avoid hitting him? That's a question he'll have to live with.

And that right there is the crux of it. Stallworth obviously didn't do it intentionally and from all accounts I've read, is seriously remorseful about it. I believe he will wonder about that for the rest of his life. I wonder if Vick has been bothered by what he did at all beyond how it affects him now. I don't have the same faith in Vick that I do in Stallworth. Stallworth has his own prison to deal with. I think once Vick gets his money back, his mental prison is over.

[Bretsky]

Not just with the Packers, but with any team? Obviously, the locker room needs to be accepting. Probably a team like GB, where fans have a lower PETA compassion would help. These are sort of givens. Additionally, I think:

- Vick needs to have low income expectations, maybe only slightly above minimum.
- Team and Vick have to agree to a short term, maybe 1 or 2 years only.
- Vick can't expect much of a signing bonus.
- Vick has to be willing to play other than QB, and perhaps return kicks. Can you imagine Michael Vick returning kickoffs?

What other factors are there?

A lower PETA compassion? It has NOTHING to do with PETA! That FUCKING animal put dogs in a ring so that they could rip each other to shreds while Vick and his buddies BET ON THEM! What the fuck is wrong with some of you? Forgive? Forget? More liberal bullshit.

Agreed...it was horrible...and he served over 2 years for it. Donte Stallworth took a man's life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!! He got 24 days in jail. What's wrong with that picture?


Stallworth being a bad person does not make Vick the Prick any less terrible

I would not want either

[Patler]

Not just with the Packers, but with any team? Obviously, the locker room needs to be accepting. Probably a team like GB, where fans have a lower PETA compassion would help. These are sort of givens. Additionally, I think:

- Vick needs to have low income expectations, maybe only slightly above minimum.
- Team and Vick have to agree to a short term, maybe 1 or 2 years only.
- Vick can't expect much of a signing bonus.
- Vick has to be willing to play other than QB, and perhaps return kicks. Can you imagine Michael Vick returning kickoffs?

What other factors are there?

A lower PETA compassion? It has NOTHING to do with PETA! That FUCKING animal put dogs in a ring so that they could rip each other to shreds while Vick and his buddies BET ON THEM! What the fuck is wrong with some of you? Forgive? Forget? More liberal bullshit.

Did you just call me a liberal?? :shock:

Who said anything about forgive and forget? All I wanted to do was start a thread to discuss what conditions might get him another job. Like it or not, someone somewhere will sign him. This is professional sports. GMs with a need overlook a lot of personal traits to fill those needs.

[The Leaper]

What factors?

Easy...one factor. Neither Brohm or Flynn really show much in the first preseason game.

We need a capable backup who won't look like Elmer Fudd out there if Rodgers goes down for a game or two. While Vick is rusty and is never going to be confused for a HOF caliber QB, he has the experience and athletic talent to be a decent #2 QB.

He made a mistake...he has lost millions of dollars and spent his time in prison as a result of that. To me, the guy has paid a fair price for his sins. As long as he keeps his nose clean, I don't see why he shouldn't be given a second chance...without the PETA nutjobs acting like the moral majority.

[Patler]

What factors?

Easy...one factor. Neither Brohm or Flynn really show much in the first preseason game.

We need a capable backup who won't look like Elmer Fudd out there if Rodgers goes down for a game or two. While Vick is rusty and is never going to be confused for a HOF caliber QB, he has the experience and athletic talent to be a decent #2 QB.

He made a mistake...he has lost millions of dollars and spent his time in prison as a result of that. To me, the guy has paid a fair price for his sins. As long as he keeps his nose clean, I don't see why he shouldn't be given a second chance...without the PETA nutjobs acting like the moral majority.

I didn't intend this to be about signing with Green Bay, specifically. I meant for him to sign with any team, and I fully expect that at some point someone will sign him. I think the chances of it being Green Bay are slim.

The Packers were willing to go with Flynn and Brohm as backups last year. and I see no reason why they won't this year, too. I assume neither will be worse than he was last season, and both should be at least somewhat better. Neither is at a stage to be given up on yet, that might come next season.

[Scott Campbell]

Only a DESPERATE team will sign dogkilla Vick. Are the cheeseheads that desperate ?


Yeah, were probably that desperate at backup QB. Though were nowhere near as desperate as the Bears are at starting WR 1 & 2.

[woodbuck27]

Would a sober person have been able to avoid hitting him? That's a question he'll have to live with.

And that right there is the crux of it. Stallworth obviously didn't do it intentionally and from all accounts I've read, is seriously remorseful about it. I believe he will wonder about that for the rest of his life. I wonder if Vick has been bothered by what he did at all beyond how it affects him now. I don't have the same faith in Vick that I do in Stallworth. Stallworth has his own prison to deal with. I think once Vick gets his money back, his mental prison is over.

"Stallworth obviously didn't do it intentionally" MJ Ziggy

M. Vick killed dogs and Donte Stallworth killed a human being.

Your position is that Donte Stallworth is 'seriously remorseful', as opposed to the conciounce of M. Vick that is based in his dramatically reduced income level.

Donte Stallworth got behind the wheel of his vehicle and started the engine and drove while over the limit for alcohol and thus elected to make himself 'at least' eligible for a DUI. He ventured a risk certainly for himself and failed to forsee all the consequences of that decision. He made that choice and someone else suffered the consequences of his lousy decision MJ. The worst case scenario. He killed a person other than himself.

Bad luck or bad judgement? Your judgement finds for Donte Stallworth over M. Vick MJ in terms of conciounce. Donte Stallworth demonstrated bad judgement and carelessness in a far more serious and consequential outcome than M. Vick. The death of a human being.

I believe that both men made decisions that led to outcomes that seriously affected their lives. M. Vick paid a high price for an unlawful act. The disgrace that led to will always lead him back to his consciounce no less that what Donte Stallworth presently feels. A proper consciounce isn't limited by the seriousness of the crime nor the price of the offense when it's exposed to the public eye and punished.

I believe that both M. Vick and Donte Stallworth are equally and seriously remorseful MJ for their actions and consequences.

[SkinBasket]

Donte Stallworth got behind the wheel of his vehicle and started the engine and drove while over the limit for alcohol and thus elected to make himself 'at least' eligible for a DUI. He ventured a risk certainly for himself and failed to forsee all the consequences of that decision. He made that choice and someone else suffered the consequences of his lousy decision MJ. The worst case scenario. He killed a person other than himself.

Have you even read what happened? Donte could have been a stone sober abstinent monk approved for sainthood and touched by god himself and the fucking guy would have still been killed when we ran in front of the moving car. The dead moron made the worst choice of all the people you pontificate about, and that's probably why the dead moron's family wanted the court to be lenient with the punishment.

Yeah, he should serve time for DUI, the choice he made, but not for the life ending choice the other fucker made. If some drunk was carrying a scissors and some other idiot ran up and impaled himself on them and died, would you want to put the drunk in jail?

[BEARMAN]

{ilr]3]
Only a DESPERATE team will sign dogkilla Vick. Are the cheeseheads that desperate ? The media hype will be ENORMOUS! :shock: That could be a good thang, or a bad thang, depends on how the boys upstairs handle it. IMO, the hype and attention will be too distracting to the rest of the team, but hey, if you cheeseheads think you need that dogkilla to win some, go to it ! Good Luck with that move, ... :twisted:

Go BEARS Go !

Wow, Denny Green was right :soap: . You are who we thought you were! :laugh: An Idiot!

If anyone thinks the Packers are desparate for anything on offense proves you dont know what the hell your talking about. And Vick only adds anouther piece for an old and Decrepit bears defense to deal with.

Please, ... Da BEARS "D" will handle the cheeseheads with NO problems ! And, YES, I think the cheeseheads are Desperate, looking at Dogkilla Vick prooves it ! :roll:
If calling me an idiot makes you fell better about yourself, I am glad to have helped, you still riding that short bus ? :shock:

Go BEARS Go !

[Bretsky]

Honestly, not many in here are too worried about the Bears in here so I doubt you'll get much of a rise out of anybody.

I'm worried about the Vikings

[Rastak]

Not just with the Packers, but with any team? Obviously, the locker room needs to be accepting. Probably a team like GB, where fans have a lower PETA compassion would help. These are sort of givens. Additionally, I think:

- Vick needs to have low income expectations, maybe only slightly above minimum.
- Team and Vick have to agree to a short term, maybe 1 or 2 years only.
- Vick can't expect much of a signing bonus.
- Vick has to be willing to play other than QB, and perhaps return kicks. Can you imagine Michael Vick returning kickoffs?

What other factors are there?

A lower PETA compassion? It has NOTHING to do with PETA! That FUCKING animal put dogs in a ring so that they could rip each other to shreds while Vick and his buddies BET ON THEM! What the fuck is wrong with some of you? Forgive? Forget? More liberal bullshit.

Agreed...it was horrible...and he served over 2 years for it. Donte Stallworth took a man's life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!! He got 24 days in jail. What's wrong with that picture?


Actually the video showed Mr Reyes ran right out in front of his car. Stallworth never intended to hurt anyone and it *may* not have been his fault. What he did was wrong for sure but what Vick did was quite deliberate. He did exactly what he intended, he did not make a poor choice that had unintended concequences.

[Fritz]

Donte Stallworth got behind the wheel of his vehicle and started the engine and drove while over the limit for alcohol and thus elected to make himself 'at least' eligible for a DUI. He ventured a risk certainly for himself and failed to forsee all the consequences of that decision. He made that choice and someone else suffered the consequences of his lousy decision MJ. The worst case scenario. He killed a person other than himself.

Have you even read what happened? Donte could have been a stone sober abstinent monk approved for sainthood and touched by god himself and the fucking guy would have still been killed when we ran in front of the moving car. The dead moron made the worst choice of all the people you pontificate about, and that's probably why the dead moron's family wanted the court to be lenient with the punishment.

Yeah, he should serve time for DUI, the choice he made, but not for the life ending choice the other fucker made. If some drunk was carrying a scissors and some other idiot ran up and impaled himself on them and died, would you want to put the drunk in jail?

Skin, you are correct. If Donte was touched by god himself, then God/god wouldn't probably send some person in front of that car, unless he/she/it meant for it to happen in order to teach Donte some further lesson in humility as he moved forward on his path to sainthood.

[pbmax]

Forgive? Forget? More liberal bullshit.
Pope John Paul II would like a word with you about that linkage.

[Fritz]

Donte had little choice in the matter--even if he shouldn't have been behind the wheel. His "victim" ran in front of his car. If you think that's punishable by years in jail, I hope it never happens to you. What Vick did was premeditated and profitable. I have a thing against people taking violent power over others be it wives, children or animals. He did not have to treat those dogs the way he did--part of that was for his own entertainment and he'll have to go a long way to prove that he's better than what he did, not just repeatedly, but over a course of time longer than he spent in jail.

It's rare that I agree with Packnut, but in this instance he's spot on.


I like you, MJ.

[]{ilr]3]

{ilr]3]
Only a DESPERATE team will sign dogkilla Vick. Are the cheeseheads that desperate ? The media hype will be ENORMOUS! :shock: That could be a good thang, or a bad thang, depends on how the boys upstairs handle it. IMO, the hype and attention will be too distracting to the rest of the team, but hey, if you cheeseheads think you need that dogkilla to win some, go to it ! Good Luck with that move, ... :twisted:

Go BEARS Go !

Wow, Denny Green was right :soap: . You are who we thought you were! :laugh: An Idiot!

If anyone thinks the Packers are desparate for anything on offense proves you dont know what the hell your talking about. And Vick only adds anouther piece for an old and Decrepit bears defense to deal with.

Please, ... Da BEARS "D" will handle the cheeseheads with NO problems ! And, YES, I think the cheeseheads are Desperate, looking at Dogkilla Vick prooves it ! :roll:
If calling me an idiot makes you fell better about yourself, I am glad to have helped, you still riding that short bus ? :shock:

Go BEARS Go !

MUST NOT FEED THE TROLL :no:
MUST NOT FEED THE TROLL :smack:
MUST NOT FEED THE TROLL :doh:
MUST NOT FEED THE TROLL :shtf:
MUST NOT FEED THE TROLL :crazy:
MUST NOT FEED THE TROLL :taunt:


Ahhhh, a few hail Mary's and I am good again! :trll:

[MJZiggy]

Actually the video showed Mr Reyes ran right out in front of his car. Stallworth never intended to hurt anyone and it *may* not have been his fault. What he did was wrong for sure but what Vick did was quite deliberate. He did exactly what he intended, he did not make a poor choice that had unintended concequences.

Here's a question: If Vick never got caught, would he still be killing dogs; if Stallworth hadn't been caught would he still be running people over?

I highly doubt Stallworth will ever get in a car intoxicated again. With or without any sort of government punishment. Could you say the same is true for Vick? Had he not lost everything, would he never fight dogs again?

I like you too, Fritz

[SkinBasket]

Donte Stallworth got behind the wheel of his vehicle and started the engine and drove while over the limit for alcohol and thus elected to make himself 'at least' eligible for a DUI. He ventured a risk certainly for himself and failed to forsee all the consequences of that decision. He made that choice and someone else suffered the consequences of his lousy decision MJ. The worst case scenario. He killed a person other than himself.

Have you even read what happened? Donte could have been a stone sober abstinent monk approved for sainthood and touched by god himself and the fucking guy would have still been killed when we ran in front of the moving car. The dead moron made the worst choice of all the people you pontificate about, and that's probably why the dead moron's family wanted the court to be lenient with the punishment.

Yeah, he should serve time for DUI, the choice he made, but not for the life ending choice the other fucker made. If some drunk was carrying a scissors and some other idiot ran up and impaled himself on them and died, would you want to put the drunk in jail?

Skin, you are correct. If Donte was touched by god himself, then God/god wouldn't probably send some person in front of that car, unless he/she/it meant for it to happen in order to teach Donte some further lesson in humility as he moved forward on his path to sainthood.

On an aside, I always thought "touched by god" meant you were retarded. Too much Micheal Landon on the TV when I was a kid.

[Brando19]

Actually the video showed Mr Reyes ran right out in front of his car. Stallworth never intended to hurt anyone and it *may* not have been his fault. What he did was wrong for sure but what Vick did was quite deliberate. He did exactly what he intended, he did not make a poor choice that had unintended concequences.

Here's a question: If Vick never got caught, would he still be killing dogs; if Stallworth hadn't been caught would he still be running people over?

I highly doubt Stallworth will ever get in a car intoxicated again. With or without any sort of government punishment. Could you say the same is true for Vick? Had he not lost everything, would he never fight dogs again?

I like you too, Fritz

You make great points. My point is this. I am an animal lover...I have two dogs and I couldn't imagine hurting a dog.....ever. Stallworth killed a human being....which is far more important than a dog. Vick meant to kill those dogs...he deserved every bit of punishment he got. Stallworth didn't mean to kill that man...but he did...and he was intoxicated. If you or I would have ran over someone...we would be in jail. Donte may be sorry for his actions...but he should have to serve a year or two in jail..at the least. Twenty four days in jail sends the wrong message. These PETA idiots think a dog's life is as important as a human's...that's dumb.

[MJZiggy]

Actually the video showed Mr Reyes ran right out in front of his car. Stallworth never intended to hurt anyone and it *may* not have been his fault. What he did was wrong for sure but what Vick did was quite deliberate. He did exactly what he intended, he did not make a poor choice that had unintended concequences.

Here's a question: If Vick never got caught, would he still be killing dogs; if Stallworth hadn't been caught would he still be running people over?

I highly doubt Stallworth will ever get in a car intoxicated again. With or without any sort of government punishment. Could you say the same is true for Vick? Had he not lost everything, would he never fight dogs again?

I like you too, Fritz

You make great points. My point is this. I am an animal lover...I have two dogs and I couldn't imagine hurting a dog.....ever. Stallworth killed a human being....which is far more important than a dog. Vick meant to kill those dogs...he deserved every bit of punishment he got. Stallworth didn't mean to kill that man...but he did...and he was intoxicated. If you or I would have ran over someone...we would be in jail. Donte may be sorry for his actions...but he should have to serve a year or two in jail..at the least. Twenty four days in jail sends the wrong message. These PETA idiots think a dog's life is as important as a human's...that's dumb.

PETA idiots aside, the ability to torture and kill any creature by intent, be it a wife, a child (the worst in my mind) or a horse, dog, what have you, repeatedly over the course of years and for no good reason to me is as bad as accidentally hitting a human when he runs in front of your car. I'm looking at intent and the kind of character it takes to look at another living being suffering and be entertained by it and want it to continue.

[Brando19]

Actually the video showed Mr Reyes ran right out in front of his car. Stallworth never intended to hurt anyone and it *may* not have been his fault. What he did was wrong for sure but what Vick did was quite deliberate. He did exactly what he intended, he did not make a poor choice that had unintended concequences.

Here's a question: If Vick never got caught, would he still be killing dogs; if Stallworth hadn't been caught would he still be running people over?

I highly doubt Stallworth will ever get in a car intoxicated again. With or without any sort of government punishment. Could you say the same is true for Vick? Had he not lost everything, would he never fight dogs again?

I like you too, Fritz

You make great points. My point is this. I am an animal lover...I have two dogs and I couldn't imagine hurting a dog.....ever. Stallworth killed a human being....which is far more important than a dog. Vick meant to kill those dogs...he deserved every bit of punishment he got. Stallworth didn't mean to kill that man...but he did...and he was intoxicated. If you or I would have ran over someone...we would be in jail. Donte may be sorry for his actions...but he should have to serve a year or two in jail..at the least. Twenty four days in jail sends the wrong message. These PETA idiots think a dog's life is as important as a human's...that's dumb.

PETA idiots aside, the ability to torture and kill any creature by intent, be it a wife, a child (the worst in my mind) or a horse, dog, what have you, repeatedly over the course of years and for no good reason to me is as bad as accidentally hitting a human when he runs in front of your car. I'm looking at intent and the kind of character it takes to look at another living being suffering and be entertained by it and want it to continue.

:bclap:
Can't argue that. Killing intentionally is waaaaay worse than accidentally killing someone/something. I just think Stallworth should have been in jail longer. I mean, Nick Hogan was in jail for a year for crying out loud.

[SnakeLH2006]

I like ya Patler....But way to rob up a VICK topic that stated the same thing WAY earlier...FUCK YOUR TOPIC:

Peep the OG Topic:

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?t=18193

[Guiness]

Have you even read what happened? Donte could have been a stone sober abstinent monk approved for sainthood and touched by god himself and the fucking guy would have still been killed when we ran in front of the moving car. The dead moron made the worst choice of all the people you pontificate about, and that's probably why the dead moron's family wanted the court to be lenient with the punishment.

Yeah, he should serve time for DUI, the choice he made, but not for the life ending choice the other fucker made. If some drunk was carrying a scissors and some other idiot ran up and impaled himself on them and died, would you want to put the drunk in jail?

For someone who casts stones at others for straw man arguments...

[Patler]

I like ya Patler....But way to rob up a VICK topic that stated the same thing WAY earlier...FUCK YOUR TOPIC:

Peep the OG Topic:

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?t=18193

Same thing? I think not! Read my initial post in this thread.
Different topics:

Thread 1 - Should the Packers sign Vick. Would we want to sign Vick. (Even has a poll.)

This thread - What has to happen for ANY team to sign Vick. I was hoping to focus on what a team can expect from him and what he can expect from a team. It has nothing to do with whether you want to sign him, or if you think anyone should. It WILL happen. Someone will sign him. That being the case, what has to happen for him to be signed?

But, doesn't matter. This thread is dead.

[Fritz]

No, wait! No it's not!

I think that in order to sign Vick, one of the conditions would be for the NFL team to have green M & M's in Vick's dressing room before every show.

Oh, wait. That was Van Halen.

Oops.

[Pugger]

Let's set aside his illegal activities for a second and look at this situation only about football. Is Vick a good fit for US?? From what I'm gathering he may not be a good QB in a WCO. Yes, it would be nice to have a vet QB at #2 but could he become a decent pocket QB under MM's tutelage? And if we do sign him, what do we do with Flynn or Brohm? I seriously doubt TT and MM want to expose either guy to waivers by trying to sneak either one onto the practice squad. :shock: And finally do we have the luxury of keeping 4 QBs on the active roster?

[Guiness]

Let's set aside his illegal activities for a second and look at this situation only about football. Is Vick a good fit for US?? From what I'm gathering he may not be a good QB in a WCO. Yes, it would be nice to have a vet QB at #2 but could he become a decent pocket QB under MM's tutelage? And if we do sign him, what do we do with Flynn or Brohm? I seriously doubt TT and MM want to expose either guy to waivers by trying to sneak either one onto the practice squad. :shock: And finally do we have the luxury of keeping 4 QBs on the active roster?

From a pure football perspective, I agree with you Pugger. He's not a great fit for the team, at QB anyways. His greatest obvious value is to a team that runs a Wildcat, not a WCO. Others have said as a returner, but I think he's got a bit more value than that.

Not that it matters, because I don't see Vick fitting into our offense regardless...but you need to convince me that what I saw on the field was the WCO???

[Pugger]

True, maybe it wasn't a true WCO :wink: but is isn't Wildcat either.

[Guiness]

True, maybe it wasn't a true WCO :wink: but is isn't Wildcat either.

Someone should install the option so Vick can play in it!!!

Ok. Maybe not.

[mission]

MM is one of the most CREATIVE offensive minds in all of football. People talking about "a fit for the WCO" ... come on, we don't really even run much of a WCO anymore. That was #4, our routes and timing having changed a lot since AR took over (not nearly as much focus on slants, etc) ... we could work all sorts of stuff with Vick and Im sure MM would adjust to fit if AR were to get hurt. And if he stays healthy, you can bet on seeing 3-6 plays a game with some crazy formations and many maybe even using both AR/MV.

[Patler]

It's a small thing, but unless Vick is a teams #2 QB he causes a little bit of a game day roster disadvantage. If he is active along with the #2 QB you lose the advantage of the "3rd QB" designation. It will require shorting another position.

[Freak Out]

What is Vicks attitude about playing right now? Is he content to be a #2? I would not have a problem letting either Flynn or Brohm go if Vick would be around for a couple of years....we can draft another QB to back up Rodgers after we trade Vick because Rodgers is the Packer QB for a long time unless he gets hurt.

[Lurker64]

It's a small thing, but unless Vick is a teams #2 QB he causes a little bit of a game day roster disadvantage. If he is active along with the #2 QB you lose the advantage of the "3rd QB" designation. It will require shorting another position.

The Dolphins are in a similar situation this year, with Chad Pennington as their unquestioned starter, Chad Henne as the young talent who is being groomed to be an NFL starter some day, and Pat White as the designated "wildcat" quarterback.

It's my understanding that the Dolphins plan is to declare Henne the #3 QB to take advantage of the "third QB game day roster" rule, even though Henne would start in case an injury caused Pennington to miss a start.

No reason the Packers couldn't do something similar with Rodgers, Flynn, and Vick.

[Patler]

It's a small thing, but unless Vick is a teams #2 QB he causes a little bit of a game day roster disadvantage. If he is active along with the #2 QB you lose the advantage of the "3rd QB" designation. It will require shorting another position.

The Dolphins are in a similar situation this year, with Chad Pennington as their unquestioned starter, Chad Henne as the young talent who is being groomed to be an NFL starter some day, and Pat White as the designated "wildcat" quarterback.

It's my understanding that the Dolphins plan is to declare Henne the #3 QB to take advantage of the "third QB game day roster" rule, even though Henne would start in case an injury caused Pennington to miss a start.

No reason the Packers couldn't do something similar with Rodgers, Flynn, and Vick.

Ya, it has nothing to do with the problem of who the starter would be in the future if the #1 is hurt, but in the game when the injury occurs. If your true #2 is the designated "3rd QB" you might have to finish the game with your #3 when the #1 is hurt.

Like I said, its not a big deal, especially with a team like the Packers who have no specialized return man. Blackmon, Williams and Nelson would be suited up anyway.

[swede]

No, wait! No it's not!

I think that in order to sign Vick, one of the conditions would be for the NFL team to have green M & M's in Vick's dressing room before every show.

Oh, wait. That was Van Halen.

Oops.

The clause was "no brown M&Ms". It was there--buried in a random spot in the paperwork-- to provide the advance people a quick way to ensure that the dickheads running the Putz County Arena had actually read the contract. If there were no M&Ms at all or if there were brown M&Ms in the bowl, chances are the contractually demanded specifications for electricity and space had been screwed up as well.

Michael Vick makes sense to me. Brohm and Flynn are looking pretty underwhelming in a Tim Couch kind of way.

I'm sure TT dismisses the idea of Vick as quickly as it would be possible for TT to dismiss an idea. We never get to have any fun hiring crazy people because Green Bay doesn't have any trouble selling tickets.

[Lurker64]

I'm sure TT dismisses the idea of Vick as quickly as it would be possible for TT to dismiss an idea. We never get to have any fun hiring crazy people because Green Bay doesn't have any trouble selling tickets.

Well, it could be the other way around actually. Vick is a very controversial figure and his involvement with a crime most people find incredibly distasteful might actually drive some people away from the stadium. If you're a general manager or an owner for a team that has had trouble selling out games in the past, you might pass on Vick simply because he might hurt your bottom line.

Adam Schefter's "Vick List" consists of New England, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Green Bay, and Carolina all of which are fairly stable organizations who would probably have no trouble selling tickets even if they signed Osama Bin Laden to hold for field goals.

[Guiness]

The Dolphins are in a similar situation this year, with Chad Pennington as their unquestioned starter, Chad Henne as the young talent who is being groomed to be an NFL starter some day, and Pat White as the designated "wildcat" quarterback.

It's my understanding that the Dolphins plan is to declare Henne the #3 QB to take advantage of the "third QB game day roster" rule, even though Henne would start in case an injury caused Pennington to miss a start.

No reason the Packers couldn't do something similar with Rodgers, Flynn, and Vick.

Ya, it has nothing to do with the problem of who the starter would be in the future if the #1 is hurt, but in the game when the injury occurs. If your true #2 is the designated "3rd QB" you might have to finish the game with your #3 when the #1 is hurt.

Like I said, its not a big deal, especially with a team like the Packers who have no specialized return man. Blackmon, Williams and Nelson would be suited up anyway.

I think Lurker is refering to a rule that allows you to 'activate' your 3rd QB as an emergency QB. I seem to remember something about it myself. Didn't we actually use it once when Favre got hurt, and Pederson came in and immediately hurt himself...causing Nall to take the field?

I think it's intended for use if both the #1 and #2 guy get hurt, and you can't bring them back into the game if the #3 takes the field. But I'm not sure how it works.

[Patler]

I think Lurker is refering to a rule that allows you to 'activate' your 3rd QB as an emergency QB. I seem to remember something about it myself. Didn't we actually use it once when Favre got hurt, and Pederson came in and immediately hurt himself...causing Nall to take the field?

I think it's intended for use if both the #1 and #2 guy get hurt, and you can't bring them back into the game if the #3 takes the field. But I'm not sure how it works.

That's exactly my point. If the player designated as the "3rd QB" comes into the game, neither of the other two can re-enter the game. So if Vick is in reality your third best QB, but you have him on the 45 man game day roster because you want to use him for those 5 or 6 plays specially designed for him, if your #1 gets hurt you have two options, either have Vick finish the game even though he is not your best backup QB; or insert your true backup QB (whom you designated as the "3rd QB") to finish the game, and do not have Vick available the rest of the game. In essence, if your #1 gets hurt you would lose both him and Vick for the remainder of the game if you use your true backup who was originally designated as the emergency QB on the game day roster.

The only way you can have your true backup play QB and still use Vick for those handful of plays some people have suggested be scripted for him is to have all three QBs on the 45 man roster. That's my point about having to short yourself at another position, because you would have no player under the "3rd QB" designation.

[MJZiggy]

I think you're looking at their idea a little backward in that they believe that Vick is the "real" #2 backup playing at the #3 spot. So if he comes in for the rest of the game, he's better than the quarterback listed at #2. The problem is if you do that and he gets hurt, then you have no qb to finish the game.

[Patler]

I think you're looking at their idea a little backward in that they believe that Vick is the "real" #2 backup playing at the #3 spot. So if he comes in for the rest of the game, he's better than the quarterback listed at #2. The problem is if you do that and he gets hurt, then you have no qb to finish the game.

What?

Apparently I have lost my ability to write coherently, have lost my ability to read comprehensively, or both. :lol: :lol:

All I was suggesting is that if a team signs Vick and actually considers him to be their third best option at QB, BUT puts in some "special" plays to use his unique talents, he causes a minor problem for the game day roster for the reasons I explained in my last message above.

If they actually consider him to be their 2nd best option to play QB there is no problem. He is on the 45 man roster, the third QB is designated as the "emergency QB" and doesn't count against the 45.

It's a very small matter. It would only be an issue in a game in which the the #1 QB is injured.

[hoosier]

Not just with the Packers, but with any team? Obviously, the locker room needs to be accepting. Probably a team like GB, where fans have a lower PETA compassion would help. These are sort of givens. Additionally, I think:

- Vick needs to have low income expectations, maybe only slightly above minimum.
- Team and Vick have to agree to a short term, maybe 1 or 2 years only.
- Vick can't expect much of a signing bonus.
- Vick has to be willing to play other than QB, and perhaps return kicks. Can you imagine Michael Vick returning kickoffs?

What other factors are there?

I must have missed this thread when it was still relevant. One obvious factor, IMO, is organizational stability. A team that takes on Vick needs to have a solid core group of players who won't easily get distracted by media spectacle or be divided or become demoralized if Vick screws up again. And it needs to provide a stable, positive environment where Vick won't be tempted to return to old habits and old social circles.

It's interesting in retrospect, after Vick has signed with Philly, to consider the contrast between the two teams that reportedly made him offers. The Bengals are the antithesis of a stable organization, whereas the Eagles come pretty close to exemplifying it (even though they have suffered through the turmoil of TO and occasional controversies surrounding McNabb). The Bengals reported offer wasn't as good as Philly's (2.3M over 2 years vs. 1.6M for 1 year w/ team option for second year at 5.2M), but even if it HAD been competitive I would expect that Tony Dungy would have pushed Vick as hard as he could away from Cincinnati. Imagine the media fallout if Vick had in fact signed with the Bengals....

[MOBB DEEP]

I'm guessing he needs to find a team that doesn;t mind the protests and likes his 75 career QB rating.


Nobody comes to mind. The Vikings seem to like a 75 rating in QBs for some odd reason but they most certainly don't want a bunch of nuts ringing the stadium every Sunday.

Green Bay can handle the protests stuff easily I think. My question is why would center around why they want the 75 rating AND a guy that hasn't played in a helluva long time over what they have?

GREAT qbs in minny?????

[Rastak]

I'm guessing he needs to find a team that doesn;t mind the protests and likes his 75 career QB rating.


Nobody comes to mind. The Vikings seem to like a 75 rating in QBs for some odd reason but they most certainly don't want a bunch of nuts ringing the stadium every Sunday.

Green Bay can handle the protests stuff easily I think. My question is why would center around why they want the 75 rating AND a guy that hasn't played in a helluva long time over what they have?

GREAT qbs in minny?????


Relevence to the subject at hand?

[MOBB DEEP]

I'm guessing he needs to find a team that doesn;t mind the protests and likes his 75 career QB rating.


Nobody comes to mind. The Vikings seem to like a 75 rating in QBs for some odd reason but they most certainly don't want a bunch of nuts ringing the stadium every Sunday.

Green Bay can handle the protests stuff easily I think. My question is why would center around why they want the 75 rating AND a guy that hasn't played in a helluva long time over what they have?

GREAT qbs in minny?????


Relevence to the subject at hand?

i could be wrong but it sounds like u were saying u would take ur QBs over vick da great...i apologize if im incorrect; not trying to banter for no reason...

WOULD u take him over your your cast??

[MOBB DEEP]

btw, im just salty favre aint going to 10,000 lakes

[Rastak]

I'm guessing he needs to find a team that doesn;t mind the protests and likes his 75 career QB rating.


Nobody comes to mind. The Vikings seem to like a 75 rating in QBs for some odd reason but they most certainly don't want a bunch of nuts ringing the stadium every Sunday.

Green Bay can handle the protests stuff easily I think. My question is why would center around why they want the 75 rating AND a guy that hasn't played in a helluva long time over what they have?

GREAT qbs in minny?????


Relevence to the subject at hand?

i could be wrong but it sounds like u were saying u would take ur QBs over vick da great...i apologize if im incorrect; not trying to banter for no reason...

WOULD u take him over your your cast??


No, I wouldn't.....unless I planned to never throw the ball. Then I'd take him in a minute.