Good Punters

[Kiwon]

Why can't Green Bay ever find and keep one?

No punter is perfect in every phase of the game but one look at Jon Ryan's 8 punts for a 52.4 average last week and you have to shake your head.

Everybody struggles at times with consistency but if you find a guy with a proven big leg, keep him, give him some time and let him learn the subtleties of the other aspects of the position.

[Patler]

Why can't Green Bay ever find and keep one?

No punter is perfect in every phase of the game but one look at Jon Ryan's 8 punts for a 52.4 average last week and you have to shake your head.

Everybody struggles at times with consistency but if you find a guy with a proven big leg, keep him, give him some time and let him learn the subtleties of the other aspects of the position.

I think their concern with Ryan was that he seemed to perform his poorest when they needed him the most. If you listen to the head coaches and ST coaches, what they really want more than anything is consistency, and Ryan had not supplied that. Really, what's the big difference between a a 45 yard kick on average and a 41 yard kick? The problem comes when the 45 yard average is due to three 50 yard kicks in the middle of the field and a 30 yarder when the team is backed up. Most coaches will gladly take the consistent kicks, even if a bit shorter.

That's why I think Kapinos wins the battle this year. He is more consistent than Brooks. It's the shanks that kill you.

[Scott Campbell]

Why can't Green Bay ever find and keep one?

No punter is perfect in every phase of the game but one look at Jon Ryan's 8 punts for a 52.4 average last week and you have to shake your head.

Everybody struggles at times with consistency but if you find a guy with a proven big leg, keep him, give him some time and let him learn the subtleties of the other aspects of the position.

I think their concern with Ryan was that he seemed to perform his poorest when they needed him the most. If you listen to the head coaches and ST coaches, what they really want more than anything is consistency, and Ryan had not supplied that. Really, what's the big difference between a a 45 yard kick on average and a 41 yard kick? The problem comes when the 45 yard average is due to three 50 yard kicks in the middle of the field and a 30 yarder when the team is backed up. Most coaches will gladly take the consistent kicks, even if a bit shorter.

That's why I think Kapinos wins the battle this year. He is more consistent than Brooks. It's the shanks that kill you.


I'm not sure either of these guys will be on the opening day roster. I suspect Ted may look to a roster cut from some other team. If we had to keep one, I'd rather have Kapinos for he reason you cited.

[MichiganPackerFan]

(In Mobb-speak) GET BJ SANDER

Did that guy ever play a game in the NFL or is he still playing the roll of Mike Sherman's jock strap. "Gentle BJ, Gentle."

[Patler]

I'm not sure how much is available from other rosters. Punting seems to be a down position right now, with a few teams wishing they could upgrade.

I think a booming leg might be overvalued on this team for this year. The offense is good enough that hopefully the punter will be presented with a lot of opportunities for kicks downed inside the opponents 20. Kapinos actually did a good job of that in his limited time last season. That ability might have more value for the '09 Packers than a guy who will get off an occasional 60 yarder.

[Scott Campbell]

I'm not sure how much is available from other rosters. Punting seems to be a down position right now, with a few teams wishing they could upgrade.


I assume we'd be towards the front of any waiver claim line.

[Patler]

I'm not sure how much is available from other rosters. Punting seems to be a down position right now, with a few teams wishing they could upgrade.


I assume we'd be towards the front of any waiver claim line.

True, but anyone with 4 or more years is not subject to waivers at this time. Veterans become free agents if they are cut. I have no idea who might be available and how much experience they have, but if they don't have much are they really any better than what the Packers have?

There isn't likely to be any clear cut improvement available. If there isn't, I would almost prefer to see them keep one that they have, but on a much shorter leash than Frost had last season.

[Fritz]

As I posted on another thread, this area, to me, is the one Thompson deserves the most criticism for. He's botched it here. Bidwell he couldn't help - the guy wanted to go. But Ryan was not a find, and Frost was a debacle, and Kapinos and Brooks both seem pretty shaky. Kapinos may be more consistent, but he's not as consistent as he needs to be to compensate for his average leg.

And I haven't read much to indicate there's much else out there.

It's a position that Thompson has botched. Even the Lions have a better punter!

[Patler]

As I posted on another thread, this area, to me, is the one Thompson deserves the most criticism for. He's botched it here. Bidwell he couldn't help - the guy wanted to go. But Ryan was not a find, and Frost was a debacle, and Kapinos and Brooks both seem pretty shaky. Kapinos may be more consistent, but he's not as consistent as he needs to be to compensate for his average leg.

And I haven't read much to indicate there's much else out there.

It's a position that Thompson has botched. Even the Lions have a better punter!

Bidwell was gone more than a year before Thompson got to Green Bay. Brian Barker was the punter the year before Thompson came, and he was 40 years old with an expired contract. The Packers also had BJ Sander on the roster, thanks to Sherman. That's who TT inherited, BJ Sander.

How has Thompson "botched" the punter situation if you acknowledge there isn't much out there that is available? He can't make one out of thin air. Perhaps his biggest mistake was not having more patience with Ryan, but you even describe Ryan as "not a find".

Maybe the Lions punter is better, but he has been there since 2003, so its not like TT overlooked him for GB.

Maybe TT has "botched it", I don't know; but I would be interested in knowing who he could have had that he didn't take. He was given a bad one and hasn't found a long-term replacement yet. It's not like there are all kinds of good ones available and he keeps picking bad ones.

Did TT botch it because there is someone kicking in his backyard that TT has failed to discover?

[Pugger]

After watching Cinco placekick the other night I still find it amazing teams have to waste a precious roster spot on a punter. There has to be somebody on the roster right now besides Kapinos and Brooks can kick. They did it years ago...

[Fritz]

As I posted on another thread, this area, to me, is the one Thompson deserves the most criticism for. He's botched it here. Bidwell he couldn't help - the guy wanted to go. But Ryan was not a find, and Frost was a debacle, and Kapinos and Brooks both seem pretty shaky. Kapinos may be more consistent, but he's not as consistent as he needs to be to compensate for his average leg.

And I haven't read much to indicate there's much else out there.

It's a position that Thompson has botched. Even the Lions have a better punter!

Bidwell was gone more than a year before Thompson got to Green Bay. Brian Barker was the punter the year before Thompson came, and he was 40 years old with an expired contract. The Packers also had BJ Sander on the roster, thanks to Sherman. That's who TT inherited, BJ Sander.

How has Thompson "botched" the punter situation if you acknowledge there isn't much out there that is available? He can't make one out of thin air. Perhaps his biggest mistake was not having more patience with Ryan, but you even describe Ryan as "not a find".

Maybe the Lions punter is better, but he has been there since 2003, so its not like TT overlooked him for GB.

Maybe TT has "botched it", I don't know; but I would be interested in knowing who he could have had that he didn't take. He was given a bad one and hasn't found a long-term replacement yet. It's not like there are all kinds of good ones available and he keeps picking bad ones.

Did TT botch it because there is someone kicking in his backyard that TT has failed to discover?

My general line of thinking is that since there are 32 teams out there with punters, and Green Bay's have ranked so poorly the last three years (the years over which Thompson has had control), then that indicates that there have been punters available that other teams have spotted and signed and that TT missed out on.

The way to do this would be to look at the teams with punters who rank higher than Green Bay's (accounting for franchise locations) and see when those punters were available - if they were available within Thompson's tenure.

I can think of one punter who was available: Daniel Sepulveda. He was hurt last year, but he's back now, I believe.

I think, though I may be wrong, that the Raiders' punter was available as a free agent or restricted free agent.

[Patler]

The way to do this would be to look at the teams with punters who rank higher than Green Bay's (accounting for franchise locations) and see when those punters were available - if they were available within Thompson's tenure.

I can think of one punter who was available: Daniel Sepulveda. He was hurt last year, but he's back now, I believe.

I think, though I may be wrong, that the Raiders' punter was available as a free agent or restricted free agent.

Sepulveda was drafted by the Steelers in the 4th round of 2007, at #112, before the Packers pick in round 4. So the Packers would have had to trade up in the 4th ahead of Pittsburgh, or pick Sepulveda in the 3rd, instead of Rouse at #89 or Jones at #78. Bear in mind that Sepulveda had had ACL surgery before his senior year. He tore the same ACL again with the Steelers last training camp and missed all of 2008. At the time of the 2007 draft, the Packers had Jon Ryan coming of a decent rookie season. I'm not sure drafting a punter in the third round who was barely a year removed from ACL surgery would have made a lot of sense.

Lechler from Oakland would have been nice, but he never made it to free agency. The Raiders gave him a 4 year $12 million contract to stay before free agency even started. The Packers never had a chance.

I don't think either of those are evidence of TT botching it. Who else?


EDIT - Just realized something. Irony of all ironies. The Steelers took Sepulveda with pick #112, which they got in a trade from the Packers! They gave the Packers pick #119 and #192. #119 was used for Barbre, and #192 was used for Bishop. So the Packers could have had Sepulveda at the expense of Barbre and Bishop, or some other changes latter in that draft. Considering they already had a big-legged young punter, I think I would still make the trade today.

[Scott Campbell]

I'm not sure how much is available from other rosters. Punting seems to be a down position right now, with a few teams wishing they could upgrade.


I assume we'd be towards the front of any waiver claim line.

True, but anyone with 4 or more years is not subject to waivers at this time. Veterans become free agents if they are cut. I have no idea who might be available and how much experience they have, but if they don't have much are they really any better than what the Packers have?

There isn't likely to be any clear cut improvement available. If there isn't, I would almost prefer to see them keep one that they have, but on a much shorter leash than Frost had last season.


Ted gets some well deserved criticism for not following that advice last year.

Who would of thought that it would be this difficult to get a decent punter.

[Patler]

I'm not sure how much is available from other rosters. Punting seems to be a down position right now, with a few teams wishing they could upgrade.


I assume we'd be towards the front of any waiver claim line.

True, but anyone with 4 or more years is not subject to waivers at this time. Veterans become free agents if they are cut. I have no idea who might be available and how much experience they have, but if they don't have much are they really any better than what the Packers have?

There isn't likely to be any clear cut improvement available. If there isn't, I would almost prefer to see them keep one that they have, but on a much shorter leash than Frost had last season.


Ted gets some well deserved criticism for not following that advice last year.

Who would of thought that it would be this difficult to get a decent punter.

I agree, and will also admit that at the time the change didn't bother me. I thought, "Why not try something different?" I guess we found out!

[Iron Mike]

Waaay off topic here, but when Jim McMahon used to be on the team, didn't he used to beg Holmy to let him drop kick???

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bogdanski: What the hell was that?
Paul Crewe: That was a dropkick.
Bogdanski: Dropkick?
Paul Crewe: Dropkick.
Bogdanski: How much is that worth?
Paul Crewe: Three points.
Bogdanski: Three points?
Paul Crewe: Three points.
Bogdanski: For that? Bullshit!

[wist43]

Pure and simple... TT doesn't care about the position, and thinks it should be filled with an NFL minimum player.

TT is nothing if not cheap, and punters are little more than glorified hamburger flippers in TT's view. Too bad field position is actually an important part the game.

[Scott Campbell]

Pure and simple... TT doesn't care about the position, and thinks it should be filled with an NFL minimum player.

TT is nothing if not cheap, and punters are little more than glorified hamburger flippers in TT's view. Too bad field position is actually an important part the game.



That's interesting speculation.

[Patler]

Pure and simple... TT doesn't care about the position, and thinks it should be filled with an NFL minimum player.

TT is nothing if not cheap, and punters are little more than glorified hamburger flippers in TT's view. Too bad field position is actually an important part the game.

On what is that opinion based? He hasn't let a good punter walk because of salary. Is there someone really good that he passed up due to salary? I can't think of one, but there could be. Is he cheap for not paying big contracts to bad punters?

[bobblehead]

I still think we should have signed vick to play backup QB and punter.

[Fritz]

Pure and simple... TT doesn't care about the position, and thinks it should be filled with an NFL minimum player.

TT is nothing if not cheap, and punters are little more than glorified hamburger flippers in TT's view. Too bad field position is actually an important part the game.

Look, Wist, I'm the one trying to argue that TT has botched this position but I think your statement that "TT doesn't care about the position" is ridiculous.

Really, Wist. Come on. So TT sits in his office and thinks, "Ah, punters. I don't care about them. They're not important."

That's patently absurd. You could say he does not value the position as much as he ought to, but then you'd have to back that up which would entail giving evidence that TT has refused to pay someone who was worth the money at that position. But as Patler has already pointed out, that hasn't happened.

And speaking of Patler....Okay, here's a list of available punters in May 09:

(RFA) = Restricted
(UFA) = Unrestricted
(ERFA) = Exclusive Rights
(T) = Transition
(F) = Franchise

Mitch Berger (UFA) - Pittsburgh
Ben Graham (UFA) - Arizona (Re-signed)
Chris Hanson (UFA) - New England (Re-signed)
Craig Hentrich (UFA) - Tennessee (Re-signed)
Sam Koch (RFA) - Baltimore
Michael Koenen (UFA) - Atlanta
Shane Lechler (UFA) - Oakland
Hunter Smith (UFA) - Indianapolis

Hunter Smith is the name most people clamored for but there's no indication the Pack was interested. I'm not sure if it would have been possible to pry Graham, Hanson, or Hentrich from their teams. But it looks like there might have been some options out there.

And here are two punters that were available in the draft. The comments come from Dan Pompeii.

Kevin Huber, Cincinnati

"Huber has a live leg and can drive the ball. He has some placement skills to drop punts inside the opponent's 20. He was an outstanding college player.

Jake Richardson, Miami (Ohio)

A tall punter with a strong leg, Richardson was productive in the Mid-American Conference. He shows good hang time and has been good at getting punts inside the 20. He knows what it is like to punt in bad weather."

[bobblehead]

The way to do this would be to look at the teams with punters who rank higher than Green Bay's (accounting for franchise locations) and see when those punters were available - if they were available within Thompson's tenure.

I can think of one punter who was available: Daniel Sepulveda. He was hurt last year, but he's back now, I believe.

I think, though I may be wrong, that the Raiders' punter was available as a free agent or restricted free agent.

Sepulveda was drafted by the Steelers in the 4th round of 2007, at #112, before the Packers pick in round 4. So the Packers would have had to trade up in the 4th ahead of Pittsburgh, or pick Sepulveda in the 3rd, instead of Rouse at #89 or Jones at #78. Bear in mind that Sepulveda had had ACL surgery before his senior year. He tore the same ACL again with the Steelers last training camp and missed all of 2008. At the time of the 2007 draft, the Packers had Jon Ryan coming of a decent rookie season. I'm not sure drafting a punter in the third round who was barely a year removed from ACL surgery would have made a lot of sense.

Lechler from Oakland would have been nice, but he never made it to free agency. The Raiders gave him a 4 year $12 million contract to stay before free agency even started. The Packers never had a chance.

I don't think either of those are evidence of TT botching it. Who else?


EDIT - Just realized something. Irony of all ironies. The Steelers took Sepulveda with pick #112, which they got in a trade from the Packers! They gave the Packers pick #119 and #192. #119 was used for Barbre, and #192 was used for Bishop. So the Packers could have had Sepulveda at the expense of Barbre and Bishop, or some other changes latter in that draft. Considering they already had a big-legged young punter, I think I would still make the trade today.

So let me get this straight....the steelers traded up in the 4th round to draft a punter...and then won a superbowl?? I think a lot of us (me included) have to apologize to shermy now.

[Fritz]

One problem, Bobble - they won the Super Bowl without the punter they traded up to get.

Mitch Berger was the punter. Sepulveda was out last season.

[Patler]

And speaking of Patler....Okay, here's a list of available punters in May 09:

(RFA) = Restricted
(UFA) = Unrestricted
(ERFA) = Exclusive Rights
(T) = Transition
(F) = Franchise

Mitch Berger (UFA) - Pittsburgh
Ben Graham (UFA) - Arizona (Re-signed)
Chris Hanson (UFA) - New England (Re-signed)
Craig Hentrich (UFA) - Tennessee (Re-signed)
Sam Koch (RFA) - Baltimore
Michael Koenen (UFA) - Atlanta
Shane Lechler (UFA) - Oakland
Hunter Smith (UFA) - Indianapolis

Hunter Smith is the name most people clamored for but there's no indication the Pack was interested. I'm not sure if it would have been possible to pry Graham, Hanson, or Hentrich from their teams. But it looks like there might have been some options out there.

And here are two punters that were available in the draft. The comments come from Dan Pompeii.

Kevin Huber, Cincinnati

"Huber has a live leg and can drive the ball. He has some placement skills to drop punts inside the opponent's 20. He was an outstanding college player.

Jake Richardson, Miami (Ohio)

A tall punter with a strong leg, Richardson was productive in the Mid-American Conference. He shows good hang time and has been good at getting punts inside the 20. He knows what it is like to punt in bad weather."

Good information for debate, Fritz; but how accurate is it?

You list Lechlar as UFA - but he resigned with Oakland in mid-February, before FA even started. 4years/$12 million. He was never an option. Were any of the others resigned before the Packers would have had a chance?

I wonder how much of a premium the Packers would have to pay a really good, proven punter to get him away from the south or away from a dome team to come to Green Bay? I imagine it would take something extra, but I wonder how much.

[Fritz]

Patler, the list regarding Lechler was incorrect but that doesn't invalidate the whole list - as you know, Hunter Smith, for one, was certainly available.

Here's a blip from a Cincinnati Bengals blogger on Huber's first pre-season performance. Huber was drafted in the 5th round:

"Rather, let me give honorable mentions to Rey Maualuga for flattening a NE running back on a screen, to Jonathan Joseph for playing like he did in '06 and '07 and Kevin Huber for improving on his already-better-than-Larson performance last week."

I'm not saying he's already better than Kapinos or Brooks, but he seems to have the potential to be. And since neither Brooks nor Kapinos has been terribly consistent so far, it would seem advantageous to have someone who has a better leg.

We'll see. I was pulling for Brooks but I see he's become inconsistent and has been sore again. In that case, I'll settle for Kapinos - IF he can be consistent and not shank the damn ball.

[wist43]

Run down the list of dregs that have floundered thru GB since TT has been GM, and how much were they paid??? That would be the way to tell if he gives a damn about the position.

Other than Ryan, I don't even remember any of them... think I saw one of them at Burger King the other day though :D

[Fritz]

Wist, you re suggesting that Thompson looks at the punters and says, "Ah, doesn't matter at all. I don't give a damn who the punter is."

And that's a ridiculous notion.

You could argue, as I have, that he has not done well with that position. Patler's not sure he agrees. But I think it's a legitimate argument.

But to say Thompson simply doesn't care...specious.

[Patler]

Run down the list of dregs that have floundered thru GB since TT has been GM, and how much were they paid??? That would be the way to tell if he gives a damn about the position.

Other than Ryan, I don't even remember any of them... think I saw one of them at Burger King the other day though :D

Since Thompson came he has had BJ Sander (and Flinn for a game or two when Sander was hurt), Jon Ryan, Frost and Kapinos.
Sander he inherited.
Ryan he went after kind of hard, giving him a signing bonus and more than minimum salary in '07 as I recall.
Last year, well....

[Patler]

Patler, the list regarding Lechler was incorrect but that doesn't invalidate the whole list - as you know, Hunter Smith, for one, was certainly available.

Here's a blip from a Cincinnati Bengals blogger on Huber's first pre-season performance. Huber was drafted in the 5th round:

"Rather, let me give honorable mentions to Rey Maualuga for flattening a NE running back on a screen, to Jonathan Joseph for playing like he did in '06 and '07 and Kevin Huber for improving on his already-better-than-Larson performance last week."

I'm not saying he's already better than Kapinos or Brooks, but he seems to have the potential to be. And since neither Brooks nor Kapinos has been terribly consistent so far, it would seem advantageous to have someone who has a better leg.

We'll see. I was pulling for Brooks but I see he's become inconsistent and has been sore again. In that case, I'll settle for Kapinos - IF he can be consistent and not shank the damn ball.

No. No! I wasn't suggesting the whole list was bad! Just wondered if there were others that shouldn't be discussed.