Do we keep ALL THREE FULLBACKS?

[gbpackfan]

Who gets cut?

Hall - Don't think so. Listed as the projected starter. Young, good blocker and can catch out the backfield. Something Im not sure the other 2 can do that well.

Kuhn - He's been playing some good football. Nice special teams player and threw a very nice block on Grant's TD run last night. Plus, he can run the ball better then the other two.

Johnson - No way. Too big, too strong and too talented to cut. Man, can you believe the size of this guy?

I think we keep all three. Then go with only 5 WRs and only 3 RBs. And with Havner being a the third TE and the 9th or 10th LB, I think this will work.

[Rastak]

Keep three fullbacks? I can't see any team doing that....

[Scott Campbell]

I can't see us keeping 3, and my money is on Kuhn as the odd man out. Quinn is a lock to make the roster. IMO

[Tony Oday]

can't two of our FBs play LB as well?

[bobblehead]

My bet is on Hall and Johnson...just a hunch.

[Fritz]

It would seem it will be Johnson and fill-in-the-blank.

You can keep two, but not three. I could even see them keeping one, if they keep a running back who can double as a fullback - I don't know if any of the running backs can do that, though.

[gbpackfan]

Keep three fullbacks? I can't see any team doing that....

I know, I know. But all three of them are players. These cuts are going to be tough!

[DonHutson]

We've probably seen all that Kuhn will ever have to offer. He's a decent big blocking back. But he floated around camps and rosters for a year or two before he got to GB. It's hard for me to believe he has much room to improve.

Hall is already just as good, and since he still hasn't been playing the position that long, he should have more upside, especially as a receiver. Hall seems more athletic and he's probably better on special teams as well, though Kuhn is also effective there.

Johnson also fills the big blocking back role, but he has the potential to be much more effective than Kuhn. Considering Hall brings versatility to the table that Kuhn doesn't... not much room for Kuhn. No way they keep three.

[Pugger]

Which one is the player who we switched from LB to FB? I can't remember.

[Lurker64]

Which one is the player who we switched from LB to FB? I can't remember.

Hall.

[rbaloha1]

I can't see us keeping 3, and my money is on Kuhn as the odd man out. Quinn is a lock to make the roster. IMO

Agree.

[Packman_26]

Which one is the player who we switched from LB to FB? I can't remember.

Hall.
Johnson also played LB at LSU a year or two before switching.

[Lurker64]

Yeah, if I'm breaking down the fullback race, I see us keeping two and I see Kuhn as the odd man out. There's no way any NFL team keeps 3 fullbacks, unless one of their fullbacks was their primary running back (like McClain in Baltimore). Each of the fullbacks has their strengths and weaknesses, and I think the best package is Hall and Johnson.

Quinn is the biggest hammer of the bunch, and is the most physical and imposing. Probably already the most punishing lead blocker of the bunch, but every part of his game needs seasoning.

Hall is reliable and dependable. He's not a great lead-blocker, but he's solid in blitz pickup, he's our best receiving FB, and he's a core special teamer.

Kuhn is bigger and more physical than Hall, has slightly more lapses, and is a good special teamer but not really better than Hall. Where Kuhn made his money on the roster over the last couple years was "best lead blocking FB" and "best ballcarrier at FB".

I see Kuhn's advantage over Hall as a better lead blocker being made mostly irrelevant by Johnson, and Kuhn's ability to carry the ball out of the back field being considered inessential, as the FB dive was never a very successful play on short yardage for us anyway. Kuhns a pretty good player though, if anybody else around the league could use a traditional FB, he's worth a look.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Hall vs. Kuhn is an interesting battle. At FB, I thought Kuhn was better last year. However, I won't profess to know who is better on special teams, and that will likely determine their fate. Hall was drafted by the Packers. At this point, that likely doesn't matter. Hall is just one year younger than Kuhn. On the surface, Hall has a slight advantage, but I wouldn't be shocked if they kept Kuhn.

[Patler]

Hall's problem has been staying healthy; something both Bennett and MM have mentioned at various times about him. In fact, "availability" has been a common theme in many of the coaches remarks. Even TT mentioned it the other day in one of his interviews. I think that some close roster decisions will be made based on that, and Hall vs. Kuhn could be one of those.

[OkayKyle]

Hall vs. Kuhn is an interesting battle. At FB, I thought Kuhn was better last year. However, I won't profess to know who is better on special teams, and that will likely determine their fate. Hall was drafted by the Packers. At this point, that likely doesn't matter. Hall is just one year younger than Kuhn. On the surface, Hall has a slight advantage, but I wouldn't be shocked if they kept Kuhn.

I thought that Korey Hall played great last year - I never was a fan of Kuhn as the lead blocker. According to Football's Outsider's Almanac, with Hall in the lineup, Grant averaged 4.2 yards per carry and had a DVOA of -3.2%; without him, Grant averaged 2.9 yards per carry with a DVOA of -26.9%.

DVOA -- Defense-adjusted Value Over Average. It's a simple idea: We take every play from the NFL season and compare it to the league average on the same play, after adjusting for down, distance, game situation, and the quality of the opponent.

So with Hall in the lineup last year, Grant was 3.2% less effective than the league average. Not great, but much better than -26.9%. Hall is extremely effective at cut blocking around the perimeter, but I think Johnson is going to be a bruiser inside. Like many of you, I believe Kuhn is the odd man out.

[Scott Campbell]

Hall vs. Kuhn is an interesting battle. At FB, I thought Kuhn was better last year. However, I won't profess to know who is better on special teams, and that will likely determine their fate. Hall was drafted by the Packers. At this point, that likely doesn't matter. Hall is just one year younger than Kuhn. On the surface, Hall has a slight advantage, but I wouldn't be shocked if they kept Kuhn.

I thought that Korey Hall played great last year - I never was a fan of Kuhn as the lead blocker. According to Football's Outsider's Almanac, with Hall in the lineup, Grant averaged 4.2 yards per carry and had a DVOA of -3.2%; without him, Grant averaged 2.9 yards per carry with a DVOA of -26.9%.

DVOA -- Defense-adjusted Value Over Average. It's a simple idea: We take every play from the NFL season and compare it to the league average on the same play, after adjusting for down, distance, game situation, and the quality of the opponent.

So with Hall in the lineup last year, Grant was 3.2% less effective than the league average. Not great, but much better than -26.9%. Hall is extremely effective at cut blocking around the perimeter, but I think Johnson is going to be a bruiser inside. Like many of you, I believe Kuhn is the odd man out.


Nice post, and very interesting concept. Thanks for the research.

[Scott Campbell]

Hall's problem has been staying healthy; something both Bennett and MM have mentioned at various times about him. In fact, "availability" has been a common theme in many of the coaches remarks. Even TT mentioned it the other day in one of his interviews. I think that some close roster decisions will be made based on that, and Hall vs. Kuhn could be one of those.


Good point. It looks like there are a few battles with little separation of on field performance. And if that's true, Wynn may also be in trouble.

[MichiganPackerFan]

I can't see us keeping 3, and my money is on Kuhn as the odd man out. Quinn is a lock to make the roster. IMO

Agreed. Does Kuhn have any trade value? I'd imagine the staff has already been looking into that.

[Patler]

I can't see us keeping 3, and my money is on Kuhn as the odd man out. Quinn is a lock to make the roster. IMO

Agreed. Does Kuhn have any trade value? I'd imagine the staff has already been looking into that.

Good question. A lot of teams don't value FBs very highly, and might not want to risk anything more than taking the chance of not getting him after he is released. On the other hand, if you need one now, a 7th in the 2010 draft is a fairly cheep price.

The one thing going for trading Kuhn is his experience. He is what he is. Teams can see what they are getting against NFL competition. He is less of a crap-shoot than a rookie, or someone who has bounced from team to team for a couple years without making final roster, or without playing if he did make one. If someone needs what Kuhn is, a 7th is not much to pay for it, and they can rely on getting a certain performance from Kuhn.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I thought that Korey Hall played great last year - I never was a fan of Kuhn as the lead blocker. According to Football's Outsider's Almanac, with Hall in the lineup, Grant averaged 4.2 yards per carry and had a DVOA of -3.2%; without him, Grant averaged 2.9 yards per carry with a DVOA of -26.9%.

DVOA -- Defense-adjusted Value Over Average. It's a simple idea: We take every play from the NFL season and compare it to the league average on the same play, after adjusting for down, distance, game situation, and the quality of the opponent.

So with Hall in the lineup last year, Grant was 3.2% less effective than the league average. Not great, but much better than -26.9%. Hall is extremely effective at cut blocking around the perimeter, but I think Johnson is going to be a bruiser inside. Like many of you, I believe Kuhn is the odd man out.

Interesting stats and they are good to read. I won't call them useless because they differ from my opinion. I just wonder what the stats behind the stats say. Hall missed 5 games last year. In those 5 games, Green Bay played teams that gave up ypc of 3.4, 4.0, 4.2, 4.3, and 4.9. Three of the game he missed were early in the year when Grant was getting over his injury. In the 5 games he started, Green Bay played teams that gave up ypc of 4.2, 4.2, 4.4, 4.5, and 5.1. Now, looking at the numbers, the difference can't be explained away by opponent only, but it points to some of the reasons why Hall looked better. Also, to my untrained eye it seemed like Kuhn was the FB more on short yardage plays. That would skew the stats a bit also--as you are less likely to get a higher ypc if you higher proportion of plays on the goalline or in short yardage situations.

The coaches know a lot more than me in evaluating the FBs and special teams play. Ultimately, we'll know who they think is a better player by who they keep. I expect it will be Hall, but I wouldn't be surprised if Kuhn is judged to be more valuable. I don't think there is a lot that separates the two players.

[sharpe1027]

Interesting discussion. If you are correct that, Kuhn was used more on short yardage than other situations it would make a difference. Desite compensation for down/distance/opponent in the OP's stat, I would guess that Green Bay was below the league average on short-yardage last year. Thus, I would agree that Kuhn would get a disproportionate skewing of his stats; that is, unless you think Kuhn was the main cause of their failure on short yardage...

[KYPack]

Yeah, if I'm breaking down the fullback race, I see us keeping two and I see Kuhn as the odd man out. There's no way any NFL team keeps 3 fullbacks, unless one of their fullbacks was their primary running back (like McClain in Baltimore). Each of the fullbacks has their strengths and weaknesses, and I think the best package is Hall and Johnson.

Quinn is the biggest hammer of the bunch, and is the most physical and imposing. Probably already the most punishing lead blocker of the bunch, but every part of his game needs seasoning.

Hall is reliable and dependable. He's not a great lead-blocker, but he's solid in blitz pickup, he's our best receiving FB, and he's a core special teamer.

Kuhn is bigger and more physical than Hall, has slightly more lapses, and is a good special teamer but not really better than Hall. Where Kuhn made his money on the roster over the last couple years was "best lead blocking FB" and "best ballcarrier at FB".

I see Kuhn's advantage over Hall as a better lead blocker being made mostly irrelevant by Johnson, and Kuhn's ability to carry the ball out of the back field being considered inessential, as the FB dive was never a very successful play on short yardage for us anyway. Kuhns a pretty good player though, if anybody else around the league could use a traditional FB, he's worth a look.

Lurk, that's a good post. I don't like Hall, but him and Johnson will probably stick.

The post with the analysis from FO is an example of why I'm gradually souring on that site. FO is a liar figuring and figures that bullshit you from time to time.

All 3 FB's have big gaps in their game

Hall is a very poor lead blocker and picks 'em up sometimes but misses blitz pick-up too much for me. He's a poor runner, but a nifty little pass catcher. he was pretty good on ST in '07, but I've seen him get out of his lane and miss a lot on ST since then

Kuhn can basically only block.

Johnson is a good kid and a hammer of a blocker. He can't catch and is a rookie. I'd hate to have a rookie responsible for blitz pick-up when ARod means so much to us + we have no back-up QB.

I'd guess Hall & Johnson stick on the roster, but I'd like to see us get a LeRon McClain type guy in the future. The present scheme of the moose type fullback is like playing 10 on 11 much of the time. A FB that can block, catch passes and run effectively would do so much for MM and his gameplan, it ain't funny.

[DonHutson]

I see Kuhn's advantage over Hall as a better lead blocker being made mostly irrelevant by Johnson

That's a much more concise way of stating what I was trying to say.

[mraynrand]

The real question is which guy will be the guy to run the 'fullback blast' or the 'fullback dive' when the game is on the line and McCarthy wants to put the ball in the hands of his playmaker FB on a critical fourth and 1.

[retailguy]

The real question is which guy will be the guy to run the 'fullback blast' or the 'fullback dive' when the game is on the line and McCarthy wants to put the ball in the hands of his playmaker FB on a critical fourth and 1.

lol

[rbaloha1]

Hall makes it over Kuhn due to special teams. QJ is the next Wil Henderson.

[CaptainKickass]

The real question is which guy will be the guy to run the 'fullback blast' or the 'fullback dive' when the game is on the line and McCarthy wants to put the ball in the hands of his playmaker FB on a critical fourth and 1.

lol

I'd give it to the bruiser, rookie or not, Johnson hammers it for the one important yard. This is one of the the simplest most fundamental plays and we need a big, physical hard hittin' Mofo to pick up that 1 yard. Quinn Johnson is that dude.

.

[Bossman641]

The real question is which guy will be the guy to run the 'fullback blast' or the 'fullback dive' when the game is on the line and McCarthy wants to put the ball in the hands of his playmaker FB on a critical fourth and 1.

Did you have to remind me??

[MichiganPackerFan]

The real question is which guy will be the guy to run the 'fullback blast' or the 'fullback dive' when the game is on the line and McCarthy wants to put the ball in the hands of his playmaker FB on a critical fourth and 1.

If he calls that again, I will have to buy a new tv after I'm done throwing everything in sight. (I think there's a thread in the romper room that could help....)

[SnakeLH2006]

Keep three fullbacks? I can't see any team doing that....

I'd like to trade one...but FB is a dime a dozen in the NFL....as much as that insider article on JSO said we'd have 5 trades for picks lined up..JSO is wack...Fuck that. We might get a 7th for someone, but definitely not for a FB.

I like all 4. Kuhn did well tonite, but the rook is the future. I like Hall too, but his days are numbered, and Havner...I'd be shocked if we kept a half ass FB/TE/LB cuz he plays special teams...All (meaning ALL FB's...even William Henderson in his prime play ST) should be able to play ST.

We (the Pack) are talented all over (TT is the man) as this team is deep on EVERY position (sorry..forgot about QB...Brohm needs to go) based on preseason. Scouts are lining up to start our scrubs/cuts for lesser teams.

[gbpackfan]

A source believes the #Packers have kept all three fullbacks, Korey Hall, John Kun and Quinn Johnson.

GIVE ME MY PROPS BITCHES! Ha ha. Just kidding. The above was from a packersnews.com tweet.

[Lurker64]

If we're keeping 3 FB, there's no way we keep 4 RB.

[Pugger]

Well, isn't TT's motto you keep your best players? If the 3 FBs are better than a couple of the HBs...I'm eager to learn the final roster names here.

[Fritz]

If they keep all three fullbacks, then all I can say is their special teams better be damn good this year.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I like extra fullbacks and linebackers for that reason.

[Fritz]

Nah, you're just a pervert, Harlan. :D

[KYPack]

If you read all the posts in this thread, we couldn't figure out how to cut 'em.

Neither could the coaches.

3 FB's?

One is being kept for a trade for the back-up QB, mebbe?

[retailguy]

If you read all the posts in this thread, we couldn't figure out how to cut 'em.

Neither could the coaches.

3 FB's?

One is being kept for a trade for the back-up QB, mebbe?

Nah, they're debuting a new backfield alignment. Just you wait. Innovative stuff, I see on the horizon... :P :wink:

[mmmdk]

My daddy was a DJ...and a fullback...both part time! So yeah, I'm all for 3 FBs !!! :shock:

[Lurker64]

If you read all the posts in this thread, we couldn't figure out how to cut 'em.

Neither could the coaches.

3 FB's?

One is being kept for a trade for the back-up QB, mebbe?

Nah, they're debuting a new backfield alignment. Just you wait. Innovative stuff, I see on the horizon... :P :wink:

Just think: a 2 TE, 3 FB set! We'll be unstoppable!

[retailguy]

If you read all the posts in this thread, we couldn't figure out how to cut 'em.

Neither could the coaches.

3 FB's?

One is being kept for a trade for the back-up QB, mebbe?

Nah, they're debuting a new backfield alignment. Just you wait. Innovative stuff, I see on the horizon... :P :wink:

Just think: a 2 TE, 3 FB set! We'll be unstoppable!

U71 on steroids! I can't wait! :P

[denverYooper]

If you read all the posts in this thread, we couldn't figure out how to cut 'em.

Neither could the coaches.

3 FB's?

One is being kept for a trade for the back-up QB, mebbe?

Nah, they're debuting a new backfield alignment. Just you wait. Innovative stuff, I see on the horizon... :P :wink:

Just think: a 2 TE, 3 FB set! We'll be unstoppable!

What would they call that formation? The 'dozer?

[DonHutson]

One is being kept for a trade for the back-up QB, mebbe?

Or more likely will get cut when a third QB is acquired.

Once they decided Brohm was useless long term, there was no point in keeping for the short term, since he wouldn't play anyway. Might as well keep someone useful instead until they make a move at QB. That makes even more sense given the Packers' precedent for going well into the season with only 2 QB's.

[rbaloha1]

Yes. Kuhn is also able to play halfback. Only 2 should be on the game day roster.