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the_idle_threat
07-24-2006, 05:35 AM
From Packer Insider at JSO:

Hoping for the best
Green's capabilities a burning question by Bob McGinn


Green Bay - Rebuilding teams normally don't hitch their ground game to an aging running back coming off major surgery.

The Green Bay Packers are doing that with Ahman Green this season, hoping if not praying that he's still a franchise back and not over the hill.

New offensive coordinator Jeff Jagodzinski acknowledged that Green's career could go either way. Najeh Davenport and Samkon Gado hold some promise, but if the Packers plan to rebound in 2006, they probably will need another vintage season from their four-time Pro Bowl running back.

"With the injury factor you're not sure," Jagodzinski said. "Do you wish he didn't have a torn tendon? Absolutely. But Ahman's rehab has gone extremely well from what the doctors have said."

Age, injury and poor performance wrecked the Packers' ground game in its free-fall from 10th place in 2004 to 30th last year in National Football League rushing. General manager Ted Thompson stood pat in this area aside from taking two guards on the first day of the draft, hopeful that Green (torn quadriceps) and Davenport (broken ankle) can lead the resurgence.

But was it rational thinking?

Although Green blew his right quad at Minnesota in Week 6, it was not a freakish incident. He had missed practice and game time for several years because of similar problems with the same thigh.

Indications are that Green has used his renowned work ethic to make a speedy recovery from his Oct. 25 surgery. But given Green's age (29), all the pounding he has taken from 2,111 regular-season and post-season touches and the fact his right leg was a problem even before the rupture, no one can say with any degree of certainty what his future holds.

"Believe it or not, I still believe he'll be the guy that he was in the past," running backs coach Edgar Bennett said. "I'm not really worried about it. We'll do everything we possibly can to make sure he's 100% by the start of the season."

Even if the leg holds, there are reservations about whether Green remains the back who averaged 1,370 yards per season and 4.67 yards per carry from 2000-'04.

Last season, Green didn't appear to be finishing runs or breaking tackles like the Green of old. Operating essentially with the same lousy run blocking as did Gado later in the season, Green averaged 3.31 yards per carry compared with 4.07 for Gado.

Shortly before the start of free agency, Green had little alternative but to accept an incentive-laden one-year deal for $2.01 million that contained a $500,000 signing bonus, considered paltry for someone of his stature.

"I think Ahman, if healthy, is going to run with a huge, huge chip on his shoulder," Jagodzinski said. "I love that. Because I know what kind of competitor he is. He don't say much in the papers but he's a tough SOB now, as tough as we've got on this team. I hope he goes, 'OK all you (expletive), I'm going to prove you wrong.' And he will."

Bennett expects Green to be a "perfect match" for the new zone-blocked running scheme because, in his opinion, Green already has been a one-cut runner. Davenport and, to a lesser extent, Gado might be better suited for the old gap-scheme that featured more predetermined holes and power plays.

After breaking his ankle in Week 5, Davenport lost his shot at a lucrative contract in unrestricted free agency and settled for one year at $655,000 ($25,000 roster bonus).

"Both Najeh and Ahman should be hungry and they have something to prove," Bennett said. "I think it will benefit them and us."

Unless Davenport can stay on the field, run lower and improve his receiving, he will never be a featured back.

Gado, who is faster and a better receiver than Davenport, does possess starting ability. He just didn't look comfortable running stretch plays this spring.

"He's a real analytical kid and he just over-thinks things," Jagodzinski said. "When you get in pads, if you don't hit that thing north and south, you are going to get your clock cleaned. It may take him three of those times where he doesn't do that and he'll figure that (expletive) out fast."

The zone scheme, as coached by Alex Gibbs in Denver and now Atlanta, has utilized lighter fullbacks than more traditional ground games. That's why the Packers intend to play Noah Herron at both positions and possibly spend time with both Davenport and Gado at fullback.

"A lot of times in the zone scheme you have a lot of guys in front of you so the linebackers aren't coming just downhill on you," Jagodzinski said. "That's why you don't have to be a 250-pound fullback in this system. You can take a halfback that's not quite fast enough and put him at fullback and you've got exactly what you're looking for."

Herron has limitations in size, speed and athletic ability for running back but might be tough and resourceful enough also to fill a backup role at fullback.

"He had a tremendous off-season," Bennett said. "Outstanding. He has very good quickness, he plays faster than that (4.71 seconds in the 40-yard dash) and is a smart football player."

Unless venerable William Henderson hits the proverbial "wall" in his 12th season he can be penciled in again in his role as Brett Favre's reliable old receiver, a sometime blocker and special-teams leader.

"Obviously, every year we have to prove it all over again," Bennett said. "But William is relentless. I think he can still get it done as a blocker as well."

The major question is whether Vonta Leach, a blood-and-guts fullback with stiffness as a receiver and blocker, might lose his job to one of the swing men.

"But football is a physical game," Bennett said. "That's important. He can be a dominating type player from a blocking standpoint."

Free-agent fullback A.J. Cooper appeared worthy of an extended look because he's smart and a natural receiver.

At a Glance

The 10 running backs on the Green Bay roster heading into training camp. Each player is listed with height, weight, age, how acquired and college. Acquisition categories: T means acquired by trade, D4 means fourth-round draft choice and FA means free agent.

Running Backs at a Glance (6)

Player Ht. Wt. Age Acquired College
AHMAN GREEN 5-11½ 218 29 T-'00 Nebraska
Ranked eighth among NFL running backs by Pro Football Weekly entering '06; was fifth entering '05 and '04, seventh entering '03 and '02, and 18th entering '01.
NAJEH DAVENPORT 6-0½ 250 27 D4-'02 Miami
Started two games in four seasons. Carried 17 times for 178 yards and one TD at St. Louis in '04 and carried 12 times for 54 yards and two TDs against New Orleans in '06 before suffering season-ending ankle injury.
SAMKON GADO 5-10 228 23 FA-'05 Liberty
Led team in rushing (582), yards per carry (4.07), 100-yard games (3) and longest rush (64) despite playing eight games. Had four fumbles in first 90 touches, none in last 63.
NOAH HERRON 5-11 223 24 FA-'05 Northwestern
Rushed 45 times for 121 yards (2.7) and two TDs in final five games. Joined Packers Nov. 30 after agreeing to leave Pittsburgh Steelers' practice squad.
ARLISS BEACH 5-10½ 220 22 FA-'06 Kentucky
Backup for most of his time at Kentucky, finishing with 226 carries for 951 yards (4.2) and 14 TDs. Ran 40 yards in 4.5 seconds in March 2005 and had 21 on the Wonderlic test.
CHAZ WILLIAMS 5-9 212 24 FA-'05 Georgia Southern
Option quarterback in college, rushing for 2,609 yards (60 TDs) and passing for 2,471 yards (23 TDs). Suffered season-ending ankle injury one week into '05 training camp and underwent season-ending surgery Aug. 8.
Fullbacks at a Glance (4)

Player Ht. Wt. Age Acquired College
WILLIAM HENDERSON 6-1 253 35 D3-'95 North Carolina
Playing less and less in recent years. Was on field for 38.4% of the snaps in 2003, 33.9% in '04 and 27.8% in '05. Last dropped pass was in '03 divisional playoff loss against Eagles.
VONTA LEACH 6-0 248 24 FA-'04 East Carolina
Played 14 snaps in late-season stint in '04 after coming off the practice squad. Came back to play 269 snaps in '05, essentially splitting time with Henderson, who had 307.
A.J. COOPER 6-1½ 240 22 FA-'06 North Dakota State
Two years in junior college were followed by two seasons for Bison as a tight end. Caught 47 passes for 758 yards (16.1) and seven TDs at North Dakota State.
BEN BROWN 6-1 248 25 FA-'06 Tabor
Carried the ball extensively in a one-back offense for an obscure college in Kansas. Has run 40 yards in about 4.78 seconds.

ND72
07-24-2006, 09:26 AM
I'm gonna throw this out there, and no body will like it. BUT, our top 2 RB's will be Ahman Green and Najeh Davenport. Right now the battle will be who makes the team between Noah Herrion and Samkon Gado. Right now, the favorite would have to be Herrion, since Gado never once practiced with the 1st teams yet in any mini-camp or OTA's. Samkon, and coaches have both said he's really struggled to understand the new offense...WHICH, if you of you remember, I said would happen about 5 months ago. Samkon didn't fit in Liberty's zone offense, and was only put in on short yardage plays when they didn't run zone.

There is also another reason Herrion makes the team before Gado. #1, he can catch the ball, and coaches have talked highly of Herrion's ability to catch the ball. #2, Herrion plays special teams. That's huge when you can get a guy willing to play on special teams, which, Gado never did at all last year.

I know people are in love with Gado, and my hope is maybe he does come around, but as of right now I just don't see it.

Harlan Huckleby
07-24-2006, 09:35 AM
But was it rational thinking?


If they had sure-fire players at every postition this would be a Super Bowl team! You could only do so much rebuilding in one off-season.

They got 4 guys, Green, Gado, Davepoop and Herron. They will be OK. I'm more worried about the WR's and OL than the RB spot.

Harlan Huckleby
07-24-2006, 09:37 AM
BUT, our top 2 RB's will be Ahman Green and Najeh Davenport.

You're gonna like this even less: I don't think either of those two are assured of making the final cut! Green could be washed up. And I want to see Davenpoop outperform the others before it's a done deal.

MJZiggy
07-24-2006, 09:40 AM
As of right now, both Ahman and Najeh are PUP. Ahman may be cleared before TC starts, but Najeh won't be. The coaches have pretty much said that Samkon will be here and with Najeh possibly not being ready even before the season begins, there is no reason to do anything with either Sam or Noah.

woodbuck27
07-24-2006, 09:51 AM
The running game and the OL are tied at the hip.

Really looking at OUR OL can we expect alot from Ahman Green and Najeh Davenport, especially given their injuries of last season and Najeh's injury history? I believe OUR gains with Samkon Gado last season may be hindered if he doesn't adapt to the ZBS. Noah Herron - size !

I don't see OUR running game getting appreciably better in 2006 and that area of OUR game is in for a complete overhaul beginning in TC.

OL-OL-OL-OL . . . . What did T2 do for us this season ? NOTHING !!!

That overhaul will act in process with the rebuilding of OUR OL. T2's approach to that is longterm. That doesn't excite solid players around the league to want to play for us.

When we loose Brett Favre - we loose way too much !!!

It's going to be 'the boat's swamped' for the Packers, till we get a solid GM with a winning personality and a win first attitude in place.We need five very solid football players in Green Bay (STAR PLayers), to attract the talent we need to get back to another Super Bowl.

We have Brett Favre and with Ahman Green about done we have only one other star player. Donald Driver.

Now two doesn't quite cut it, unless the team plays as a whole approach gets a HOLD ? For that to work the players have to see reality - not what if's and we can's. The players need to see it in the flesh.

The Charles Woodson approach to winning football doesn't quite cut it with me. What was T2 thinking on him over the likes of a Terrell Owens?


That is so so so sad!

Always think nothing less than Super Bowl - not just doing OK or making the playoff's.

It's Super Bowl or bust !!!

Now. . . WR Terrell Owens or CB Charles Woodson?

Trouble is it's what I've been trying to tell you .T2 has no plans whatsoever, that include a winning team in 2006.

First order of business is still. Get rid of Brett Favre. Watch it go down.

Then when T2 has succeeded in that, it's going to be a long - long time before we are back in a Super Bowl.

T2 will not last in Green Bay. His best strategy to ensure against just that fate would have been to try really hard to give us the talent now that we needed with Brett Favre - to go deep into the playoffs to the Super Bowl.

NOT waste all of OUR time.

Not sink his own ship.

ND72
07-24-2006, 03:53 PM
so this turned from Running game to Ted Thompson bashing...weird. Other than not getting a suitable RB for this upcoming season, TT has done a great job in starting the rebuilding process we've desperately needed. And signing Terrell Owens instead of Charles Woodson?? I'd rather have a Lambeau Field janitor on the field instead of Terrell Owens in green bay. He'll be in Dallas for 1 year, and then he'll be gone again.

and someone here said something about Najeh and Ahman being on the PUP list? That's news. Channel 2 last night had McCarthy saying Ahman is ahead of schedule and should beable to begin Training camp on time, and Najeh will be no contact for the first 2 weeks, and then re-examined, but both should be able to start playing sometime in the preseason.

I'm just warning you all now...don't expect samkon to do what you all think he will. He was a great story for a horrible team...but he doesn't fit Jag's running style, he fits Sherman's running style.

the_idle_threat
07-26-2006, 12:51 AM
I think you are right about Gado, ND72. I like the guy---what's not to like?---but I agree he's a better fit for the old running scheme rather than the new one.

That being said, I hope he comes around and proves us both wrong.

Tony Oday
07-26-2006, 12:58 AM
Gado will be here this season!

Rastak
07-26-2006, 06:22 AM
and someone here said something about Najeh and Ahman being on the PUP list? That's news. Channel 2 last night had McCarthy saying Ahman is ahead of schedule and should beable to begin Training camp on time, and Najeh will be no contact for the first 2 weeks, and then re-examined, but both should be able to start playing sometime in the preseason.

I'm just warning you all now...don't expect samkon to do what you all think he will. He was a great story for a horrible team...but he doesn't fit Jag's running style, he fits Sherman's running style.


TT said Green wouldn't be ready at the start of camp so maybe TT and McCarthy aren't totally on the same page.

Creepy
07-26-2006, 07:14 AM
Read one of the articles in the Journal and theystated that Gado was over thinkingthe current system. The OC felt that he will settle down and once he starts reacting rather tha thinking he will be fine. He also is the choice to start (right now) if Green isn'rt healthy for week 1.


He has been working with the #1 offense in the min-camps. Rightnow he is the #1 back on the field.

Herron has been given goo dmarks for his blocking and receiving.

Gb is going with 3 Hbs and 2 FBs for the year. The Hbs are going to be Green, Gado, & Herron. The Fbs are going to be Henderson & Davenport.

Davenport was originaly a FB when he cane to GB. Since the new scheme is not looiing forthe big lead block, Davenport is more suited at his size and weight as the FB. You may see more Green/Davenport or Gado/Davenport backfield. Henderson is still the best blocking and receiving FB in theleague so he will get a lot of action.

The last time GB came close to this kind of running game was with Levens & Bennett. I am more optimistic about the Rb situation, but a lot depends on just how healthy it gets before week 1.

Bretsky
07-26-2006, 08:22 AM
so this turned from Running game to Ted Thompson bashing...weird. Other than not getting a suitable RB for this upcoming season, TT has done a great job in starting the rebuilding process we've desperately needed. And signing Terrell Owens instead of Charles Woodson?? I'd rather have a Lambeau Field janitor on the field instead of Terrell Owens in green bay. He'll be in Dallas for 1 year, and then he'll be gone again.

and someone here said something about Najeh and Ahman being on the PUP list? That's news. Channel 2 last night had McCarthy saying Ahman is ahead of schedule and should beable to begin Training camp on time, and Najeh will be no contact for the first 2 weeks, and then re-examined, but both should be able to start playing sometime in the preseason.

I'm just warning you all now...don't expect samkon to do what you all think he will. He was a great story for a horrible team...but he doesn't fit Jag's running style, he fits Sherman's running style.

Agree on Gado and also stated what you are predicting from the start. I'd argue he'd make the team though; at least they should trade him for a draft pick.

BUT TT should have signed some quality veteran help at OL for this year. He's playing the same gambling game he did last year.

MJZiggy
07-26-2006, 08:24 AM
Samkon is listed on packers.com as #2 on the depth chart and is scheduled to start if Ahman's not ready.

Noodle
07-26-2006, 09:29 AM
Man, I couldn't agree more regarding the need for some veteran OL help. I just don't understand heading in to the season with nothing but a lot of hope and some draft picks.

I'm also holding my breath about Green. I liked what Jag had to say, that Green, IF healthy, would be running with a chip on his shoulder. But that's such a big IF right now.

If Green can't go, we are in for a world of hurt. Davenpoop isn't any further along than Green in rehab, and I just don't think poor Sam is ever going to be comfortable in this scheme. I liked Herron the times I saw him, but a starting NFL back?

woodbuck27
07-26-2006, 09:59 AM
The situation we are in at RB dictates certain things.

We will start the season with "the running back by committee approach".

I see this as a lock.

** The RB's will be Ahman Green,Samkon Gado,Noah Herron,William Henderson and a fight between Najeh Davenport and A.J. Cooper for the fifth spot. FB Vonta Leach is in trouble.

William Henderson will remain as OUR FB this season but Herron, Davenport and Cooper can all fit in as OUR #2 FB.

As a sidenote to whether or not Samkon will make OUR 53-man. William Henderson is somewhat a mentor and a friend to Samkon, and I believe William will have a solid steadying influence on Gado.

Samkon Gado is intelligent enough and dedicated enough to be either OUR #1 half back to start the season against the Bears and he certainly will make OUR team to start this season.

Samkon Gado showed too much last year to just be relegated to the trash barrel.

Where does that leave Vonta Leach but out ! We hoped for alot more fr. this player than we are getting. Vonta has to have an outstanding recovery, really deliver in TC or he will be cut.

SEE ** above.

woodbuck27
07-26-2006, 10:24 AM
The Green Bay Packers are challenging some of their running backs with the zone-blocking scheme installed by new coach Mike McCarthy and new offensive coordinator Jeff Jagodzinski.

Samkon Gado, who was impressive as rookie free agent last season when injuries to Ahman Green and Najeh Davenport gave him a chance to play, has struggled with it so much that lesser talented Noah Herron managed to move ahead of him on the depth chart during offseason workouts.

In zone blocking, where two or three offensive linemen are working in combination to block a certain area while double-teaming a particular defensive lineman on the move, it is vital for the back to quickly explode to the heels of the linemen and know precisely when, how, and where to make the proper cut behind the center.

This takes plenty of practice, and it could take some time before all of the backs and linemen are comfortable with the scheme.


Vic Carucci
National Editor, NFL.com

Noodle
07-26-2006, 01:29 PM
Interesting back-to-back posts. One says we're going to do RB by committee (I agree). But the other says ZBS takes time to figure out and get everyone on the same page, which tells me the Pack would be better off with one RB who's going to get all the reps.

The RB by C could be a problem, thinks me.