Scouts name Rodgers second best QB in division

[Partial]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/58758377.html

[Waldo]

Honestly how does that guy even get paid to write about the Packers?

Mn has former beat writers and super homers infiltrating all levels of the national media.

McGinn's end of season eval would be straight C's and D's (and an F for TT), even if we won the superbowl.

How did someone that hates the Packers so much get to be a beat writer?

I guess though, following in Cliffy's footsteps.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Actually, this thread should be title "Consensus among five scouts is that Rodgers is second best QB in the division."

Interesting that two scouts named Rodgers the best and one the third best. Meanwhile, one scout labeled Favre the worst--even behind the rookie Stafford.

[HarveyWallbangers]

ESPN article lists Rodgers as the best QB in the NFC North.

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/news/story?id=4457958

[HarveyWallbangers]

Sporting News article states Rodgers is the best QB in the NFC North.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/30709311/


If you're a Cheesehead, you need to forget Favre if you didn't already last season. And don't be fazed by either Cutler or Stafford coming to the division. Because with Aaron Rodgers under center, the Packers can still boast they have the best quarterback in the division.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Another that says Rodgers is the best.

http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2009/09/nfc_north_preview.html


NFC NORTH'S BEST:

Best quarterback: Aaron Rodgers, Packers

[HarveyWallbangers]

Really, it's a horse a piece between Rodgers and Cutler. We'll see how it shakes out.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Honestly how does that guy even get paid to write about the Packers?

Mn has former beat writers and super homers infiltrating all levels of the national media.

McGinn's end of season eval would be straight C's and D's (and an F for TT), even if we won the superbowl.

How did someone that hates the Packers so much get to be a beat writer?

I guess though, following in Cliffy's footsteps.

McGinn isn't bad. I like that he seems to have a lot of access to scouts. However, I'm betting that he could poll 5 other scouts and come up with 3 that would pick Rodgers and 2 that would pick Cutler. It's a tossup.

[bobblehead]

Honestly how does that guy even get paid to write about the Packers?

Mn has former beat writers and super homers infiltrating all levels of the national media.

McGinn's end of season eval would be straight C's and D's (and an F for TT), even if we won the superbowl.

How did someone that hates the Packers so much get to be a beat writer?

I guess though, following in Cliffy's footsteps.

I started my other thread before I read this, but as I said in my thread I have found McGinn to be pretty solid imo. I'm a big TT fan and I don't recall seeing much that McGinn has written that is over the line.

Like I said, he has been money the last 2 years on predicting our record and I tend to agree with his evals on the players at the end of the season. Hell, he even gave montgomery a decent grade last year when I thought he couldn't possibly make the team this season.

I'm in a minority on him, It does seem that most posters here don't like McGinn, but hey, I'm willing to keep watching and see if I'm right or not.

[Pugger]

But what has Cutler ever done in college or the pros that would cause anyone to declare this guy the second coming of Sid Luckman?? Yes, he's an upgrade for the pandas but that wouldn't take much...

[Tyrone Bigguns]

But what has Cutler ever done in college or the pros that would cause anyone to declare this guy the second coming of Sid Luckman?? Yes, he's an upgrade for the pandas but that wouldn't take much...

Cutler has won almost 2/3rds of all the games he has started in the NFL.

[SnakeLH2006]

Honestly how does that guy even get paid to write about the Packers?

Mn has former beat writers and super homers infiltrating all levels of the national media.

McGinn's end of season eval would be straight C's and D's (and an F for TT), even if we won the superbowl.

How did someone that hates the Packers so much get to be a beat writer?

I guess though, following in Cliffy's footsteps.

I was gonna post the same...You beat me to it. Most EXPERTS say GB with Arod are going to at least challenge for the NFC championship from all the street mags/and Internet blogs Snake read at least. Damn.

[Bossman641]

ESPN article lists Rodgers as the best QB in the NFC North.

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/news/story?id=4457958

Hm......


MOST CLUTCH WITH GAME ON THE LINE

Cutler (94.2) has a better passer rating in the fourth quarter than Rodgers (87.8), but Rodgers is better when it counts -- with his team seven or fewer points ahead or seven or fewer points behind. Favre threw seven TDs in the fourth quarter, but only one came with the game close. He also threw four of his seven interceptions with the game on the line. Rodgers wins.
4th Q: +/- 7 pts Cmp Att CMP% YPA TD INT Rating
Aaron Rodgers 54 85 63.5% 8.34 6 4 93.7
Jay Cutler 50 83 60.2% 6.94 5 3 86.2
Brett Favre 44 77 61.0% 4.99 1 4 56.4

[Partial]

Honestly how does that guy even get paid to write about the Packers?

Mn has former beat writers and super homers infiltrating all levels of the national media.

McGinn's end of season eval would be straight C's and D's (and an F for TT), even if we won the superbowl.

How did someone that hates the Packers so much get to be a beat writer?

I guess though, following in Cliffy's footsteps.

You talk a big game, yet are proven wrong time and time again. I didn't see that check in the mail after you guaranteed Chillar or Bishop would be gone AND then again that Lasanah would be here.

You talk a big game. Guys like McGinn speak softly and carry a big stick.

[Partial]

ESPN article lists Rodgers as the best QB in the NFC North.

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/news/story?id=4457958

Tthe point is this is from scouts who do this for a living, not some schmo on ESPN. There is a clear distinction. That said, I just post 'em.

[Patler]

5 scouts, 3 from AFC teams and 2 from NFC teams.
Cutler gets 3 first place votes.
Rodgers gets 2 first place votes.

It would have been nice to know if the AFC scouts voted for Cutler and the NFC scouts for Rodgers. Is the difference merely that the scouts have more familiarity with one player than the other?

[pbmax]

Harvey's point is that a single vote difference between five scouts hardly makes a compelling argument. Too few votes to make the difference meaningful.

I wonder though, does McGinn call the guys out of the blue, and have they seen tape of Rodgers, Cutler and Favre this year? If he could, it would make sense for McGinn to ask the scouts who appear at games with the Packers.

[pbmax]

5 scouts, 3 from AFC teams and 2 from NFC teams.
Cutler gets 3 first place votes.
Rodgers gets 2 first place votes.

It would have been nice to know if the AFC scouts voted for Cutler and the NFC scouts for Rodgers. Is the difference merely that the scouts have more familiarity with one player than the other?

Welcome back Snoopy! :)

[Fritz]

But what has Cutler ever done in college or the pros that would cause anyone to declare this guy the second coming of Sid Luckman?? Yes, he's an upgrade for the pandas but that wouldn't take much...

Cutler has won almost 2/3rds of all the games he has started in the NFL.

I'm thinking that Tyrone is displaying his sharp humor here, but the line did startle me at first, so much so that I had to look it up to be sure - Cutler's record as a starter is 17 - 20. Ya almost got me, Ty, you clever guy.

[ThunderDan]

You talk a big game, yet are proven wrong time and time again. I didn't see that check in the mail after you guaranteed Chillar or Bishop would be gone AND then again that Lasanah would be here.

You talk a big game. Guys like McGinn speak softly and carry a big stick.

Man is that funny coming out of your mouth!!! :lol:

[Waldo]

But what has Cutler ever done in college or the pros that would cause anyone to declare this guy the second coming of Sid Luckman?? Yes, he's an upgrade for the pandas but that wouldn't take much...

Cutler has won almost 2/3rds of all the games he has started in the NFL.

By my count he is 17-20 as a starter.

[Partial]

You talk a big game, yet are proven wrong time and time again. I didn't see that check in the mail after you guaranteed Chillar or Bishop would be gone AND then again that Lasanah would be here.

You talk a big game. Guys like McGinn speak softly and carry a big stick.

Man is that funny coming out of your mouth!!! :lol:

Since when? I have opinions and will own them. I'm not ashamed of what I think, and rarely does something that I have a firm stance get proven wrong:

Ike - Blew out an ACL before he could run screwed up his chances
Young - Has shown flashes of being spectacular
Rodgers - Was average last year, looks a lot better this year, have owned it and said I very likely could be wrong but we will see come the season.

What say you?

[Bossman641]

You talk a big game, yet are proven wrong time and time again. I didn't see that check in the mail after you guaranteed Chillar or Bishop would be gone AND then again that Lasanah would be here.

You talk a big game. Guys like McGinn speak softly and carry a big stick.

Man is that funny coming out of your mouth!!! :lol:

Since when? I have opinions and will own them. I'm not ashamed of what I think, and rarely does something that I have a firm stance get proven wrong:

Ike - Blew out an ACL before he could run screwed up his chances
Young - Has shown flashes of being spectacular
Rodgers - Was average last year, looks a lot better this year, have owned it and said I very likely could be wrong but we will see come the season.

What say you?

The only time Young showed flashes of spectacular was in college.

90% of teams would love to have their Qb have Aaron's "average" year from last year.

Morency??

[PackerTimer]

You talk a big game, yet are proven wrong time and time again. I didn't see that check in the mail after you guaranteed Chillar or Bishop would be gone AND then again that Lasanah would be here.

You talk a big game. Guys like McGinn speak softly and carry a big stick.

Man is that funny coming out of your mouth!!! :lol:

Since when? I have opinions and will own them. I'm not ashamed of what I think, and rarely does something that I have a firm stance get proven wrong:

Ike - Blew out an ACL before he could run screwed up his chances
Young - Has shown flashes of being spectacular
Rodgers - Was average last year, looks a lot better this year, have owned it and said I very likely could be wrong but we will see come the season.

What say you?

:huh:

What world are you living in? Young has shown any flashes of being spectacular. He's shown some flashes of being adequate.

Rogers was average last year. I'll grant you that he could have done some things better, but average is just silly and flat wrong.

If you want to say you've never been proven wrong, you might want to come with something better than that.

[Partial]

You talk a big game, yet are proven wrong time and time again. I didn't see that check in the mail after you guaranteed Chillar or Bishop would be gone AND then again that Lasanah would be here.

You talk a big game. Guys like McGinn speak softly and carry a big stick.

Man is that funny coming out of your mouth!!! :lol:

Since when? I have opinions and will own them. I'm not ashamed of what I think, and rarely does something that I have a firm stance get proven wrong:

Ike - Blew out an ACL before he could run screwed up his chances
Young - Has shown flashes of being spectacular
Rodgers - Was average last year, looks a lot better this year, have owned it and said I very likely could be wrong but we will see come the season.

What say you?

The only time Young showed flashes of spectacular was in college.

90% of teams would love to have their Qb have Aaron's "average" year from last year.

Morency??

Never did I claim Morency to be a star. I said he could be a solid starter. I was wrong.

Was Young not flashing when we won rookie of the year, largely because of his clutch play? It takes QBs a long time. Especially ones that aren't known for their arm. Leinart is finally coming around and he was a senior. Young left after a junior and wasn't known as a passer so I will give him another year. Guy has undeniable talent. Whether that talent translates to the pros and pro bowls, we'll see.

90%? I don't believe that number to be true at all. That's 29 teams. You really think 29 teams would rather have Rodgers than there guy? I do not.

[Waldo]

Honestly how does that guy even get paid to write about the Packers?

Mn has former beat writers and super homers infiltrating all levels of the national media.

McGinn's end of season eval would be straight C's and D's (and an F for TT), even if we won the superbowl.

How did someone that hates the Packers so much get to be a beat writer?

I guess though, following in Cliffy's footsteps.

You talk a big game, yet are proven wrong time and time again. I didn't see that check in the mail after you guaranteed Chillar or Bishop would be gone AND then again that Lasanah would be here.

You talk a big game. Guys like McGinn speak softly and carry a big stick.

I have the nuts to make bold predictions and stand behind what I think. And you....

McGinn hides behind his "scouts" like a little girl.

The Packers supposedly "top" beat reporter thinks that Jay Culter is better than Rodgers, at least that is what he seems to be trying to get across. But he does it in a fucked up backhanded way, name dropping "scouts" so he can appear to come across as this unbiased source that has the inside scoop from game insiders. What if he actually polled 7 scouts, but the overall results didn't fit his headline?

It can't be proven, but IMO he is write the headline, add the data reporter/analyst, and not vice versa. Football outsiders has been caught doing this several times, to the point where any analysis and predictions they make need to be taken with a grain of salt, slight unassuming tweaks of some of their basic arbitrary assumptions can in fact prove the opposite conclusion to be true with the exact same data.

Something about the way Bob writes, practically everything he writes ends with a point the crooked finger barb at something, and he comes across as always writing in a pissed off tone.

You know why the Vikings are the best at everything in the press? Because their beat reporters are big time nob slobbers, and they move up the ladder into the national press. Also the reason that at low hype times for the Pack, anti Pack hype builds rapidly. When the Pack struggles slightly, look how quick guys are to point it out. All the effuse praise for Vikes players is not warranted. Who here knows that their "great" guard is actually a pretty bad pass blocker, and the stats bear it out. Why all the hype and praise for AD's greatness when DeAngelo had a much better season, and is totally flying under the radar in the press.

Instead of our homer beat writers moving up into the national spotlight, giving the Packers love all the time, that is what out opponents do, thus the national press loves them and is quick to criticize the Pack, while our beat reporters spend their time in a vain attempt to prove that in fact TT is an idiot, quick to be critical of anything and everything that will make him look bad.

[Bossman641]

You talk a big game, yet are proven wrong time and time again. I didn't see that check in the mail after you guaranteed Chillar or Bishop would be gone AND then again that Lasanah would be here.

You talk a big game. Guys like McGinn speak softly and carry a big stick.

Man is that funny coming out of your mouth!!! :lol:

Since when? I have opinions and will own them. I'm not ashamed of what I think, and rarely does something that I have a firm stance get proven wrong:

Ike - Blew out an ACL before he could run screwed up his chances
Young - Has shown flashes of being spectacular
Rodgers - Was average last year, looks a lot better this year, have owned it and said I very likely could be wrong but we will see come the season.

What say you?

The only time Young showed flashes of spectacular was in college.

90% of teams would love to have their Qb have Aaron's "average" year from last year.

Morency??

Never did I claim Morency to be a star. I said he could be a solid starter. I was wrong.

Was Young not flashing when we won rookie of the year, largely because of his clutch play?

90%? I don't believe that number to be true at all. That's 29 teams. You really think 29 teams would rather have Rodgers than there guy? I do not.

We've been through this all before, complete with recaps of VY's games, the stats involved, and his influence on the game.

Everyone (but you) concluded that the victories were mostly the result of the defense and running game. VY had 2 games where he played a big role in the win - the scramble in OT against the Texans and the one other game where he escaped a sack and led them on a drive at end of game (Giants??). I'm not going down this road again.

I said Rodgers' year, as in, they could keep their guy and have him put up Rodger's numbers for the year. Maybe 90% is a little high, I'll drop it to 75-80%.

[Waldo]

Honestly how does that guy even get paid to write about the Packers?

Mn has former beat writers and super homers infiltrating all levels of the national media.

McGinn's end of season eval would be straight C's and D's (and an F for TT), even if we won the superbowl.

How did someone that hates the Packers so much get to be a beat writer?

I guess though, following in Cliffy's footsteps.

You talk a big game, yet are proven wrong time and time again. I didn't see that check in the mail after you guaranteed Chillar or Bishop would be gone AND then again that Lasanah would be here.

I didn't guarantee anything. You are the one who throws out guarantees. The game is much too fluid to do anything of the sort.

Where is my check for Chillar not starting? I thought that he was our best linebacker. At least that is what you said.

I've also hit on a lot too. Who here thought we were going to keep Dietrich-Smith? How about cut Sutton? Keep Underwood and Jones?

Who else figured out pre draft that Matthews was the highest OLB on TT's board? How about pinned our 4th round pick, Lang, dead on, months before the draft. How about taking a FB in the mid rounds. What about figuring that the pick gained from Favre would most likely be used to trade up.

[Partial]

That's two more big time wins than ARod has :wink:

I think the number is probably closer to 60%.

[pbmax]

Go Waldo Go (about press pre-season press coverage).

But the trend you speak of isn't holding true this year. This preseason everyone has jumped on the Pack bandwagon because of the preseason 1st half results (esp. Cardinals) and the two first round picks. Its the worst kind of praise, because it is based on exhibition games and 1st year players that haven't played a down of live professional football. I agree it is exactly the kind of coverage some recent Viking teams have gotten.

The team has real questions. Can a second year TE make a difference as the third pass weapon consistently and in the Red Zone? Can we finally run for both big yards in ZBS AND have some success short yardage? Can Rodgers and the line cut down on the number of sacks?

And can the defense prove to me that the Titans first drive of the game, where we gave up pass plays in the middle AND let the Titans rush outside, is not a precursor to playing defense exactly like we played last year?

The parts and coaches are in place to solidify those areas. But nothing is proven yet. Bill Simmons doesn't know either. Now get these national morons off the bandwagon.

[Partial]

Pack are gonna be good imo. I don't know why you want everyone off their bandwagon. I think they're gonna go 12-4ish. I don't think we have the horses to be dominant on D but we'll be adequate and very good offensively. This team will be a more balanced attack and will run for hella yards imo.

[Chevelle2]

Partial you are brainless. Lets go through every team in the league and see how their QB fares in comparison to Rodgers

Arizona - Warner - Wash, although Rodgers is younger
Rams - Bulger - Advantage Rodgers
Niners - Hill - Advantage Rodgers
Hawks - Hass - Advantage Rodgers

Broncos - Orton - Advantage Rodgers
Chieifs - Cassell - Advantage Rodgers
Raiders - Russell - Advantage Rodgers
Chargers - Rivers - Advantage Rivers

Falcons - Ryan - Advantage Rodgers
Panthers - Delhomme - Advantage Rodgers
Saints - Brees - Advantage Brees
Bucs - Leftwich - Advantage Rodgers

Texans - Schaub - Advantage Rodgers
Colts - Manning - Advantage Manning
Jags - Garrard - Advantage Rodgers
Titans - Collins - Advantage Rodgers

Cowboys - Romo - Wash, although Rodgers will probably win a playoff game before Romo
Giants - Eli - Advantage Rodgers
Eagles - McNabb - Wash, although McNabb is a little bitch
Skins - Campbell - Advantage Rodgers

Bills - Edwards - Advantage Rodgers
Dolphins - CP10 - Advantage Rodgers
Pats - Brady - Advantage Brady
Jets - Sanchez - Advantage Rodgers

Bears - Cutler - Advantage Rodgers, in both numbers and attitude
Vikings - Favre - Advantage Rodgers
Lions - Stafford Advantage Rodgers

Steelers - Big Ben - Advantage Ben, although I think Ben is overrated
Ravens - Flacco - Advantage Rodgers
Browns - Quinn - Advantage Rodgers
Bengals - Palmer - Advantage Rodgers, until Palmer can be 100% for a full season

Advantage Rodgers: 23
Wash: 3
Advantage X player:5

23/31 = 74%.

You can try and argue these, but I think most in the forum would agree with me, and I may be giving too much credit to Warner and McNabb at that.

[Zool]

Now get these national morons off the bandwagon.

No shit PB. The team that jumps out of nowhere in the pre-season as some sort of favorite by the yammering idiots. I was actually feeling pretty good about this season until the hype machine started up. Now I'm not nearly as excited.

[Bossman641]

That's two more big time wins than ARod has :wink:

I think the number is probably closer to 60%.

Here's last year's QB stats.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/quarterbackRating/year/2008/seasontype/2

I'd love to know the 13 QB's who had a better individual year than Rodgers.

[KYPack]

But what has Cutler ever done in college or the pros that would cause anyone to declare this guy the second coming of Sid Luckman?? Yes, he's an upgrade for the pandas but that wouldn't take much...

Cutler has won almost 2/3rds of all the games he has started in the NFL.

He's 17 - 20 as an NFL starter in his career.

[Partial]

That's two more big time wins than ARod has :wink:

I think the number is probably closer to 60%.

Here's last year's QB stats.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/quarterbackRating/year/2008/seasontype/2

I'd love to know the 13 QB's who had a better individual year than Rodgers.

We're rehashing an old argument, and you already where I know. 12-13 was about right for last year. He looks a lot better this year and as such I think the team will be very good. Super bowl is the expectation this year.

[Partial]

Partial you are brainless. Lets go through every team in the league and see how their QB fares in comparison to Rodgers

Arizona - Warner - Wash, although Rodgers is younger
Rams - Bulger - Advantage Rodgers
Niners - Hill - Advantage Rodgers
Hawks - Hass - Advantage Rodgers

Broncos - Orton - Advantage Rodgers
Chieifs - Cassell - Advantage Rodgers
Raiders - Russell - Advantage Rodgers
Chargers - Rivers - Advantage Rivers

Falcons - Ryan - Advantage Rodgers
Panthers - Delhomme - Advantage Rodgers
Saints - Brees - Advantage Brees
Bucs - Leftwich - Advantage Rodgers

Texans - Schaub - Advantage Rodgers
Colts - Manning - Advantage Manning
Jags - Garrard - Advantage Rodgers
Titans - Collins - Advantage Rodgers

Cowboys - Romo - Wash, although Rodgers will probably win a playoff game before Romo
Giants - Eli - Advantage Rodgers
Eagles - McNabb - Wash, although McNabb is a little bitch
Skins - Campbell - Advantage Rodgers

Bills - Edwards - Advantage Rodgers
Dolphins - CP10 - Advantage Rodgers
Pats - Brady - Advantage Brady
Jets - Sanchez - Advantage Rodgers

Bears - Cutler - Advantage Rodgers, in both numbers and attitude
Vikings - Favre - Advantage Rodgers
Lions - Stafford Advantage Rodgers

Steelers - Big Ben - Advantage Ben, although I think Ben is overrated
Ravens - Flacco - Advantage Rodgers
Browns - Quinn - Advantage Rodgers
Bengals - Palmer - Advantage Rodgers, until Palmer can be 100% for a full season

Advantage Rodgers: 23
Wash: 3
Advantage X player:5

23/31 = 74%.

You can try and argue these, but I think most in the forum would agree with me, and I may be giving too much credit to Warner and McNabb at that.

I don't think most of the people here would agree with you based on last year.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Don't give a shit about what scouts say about our Rodgers. He's a good QB who is showing signs of becoming an outstanding QB and then potentially an elite one.

Scouts can be biased by a pre-conceived notion or simply jumping on a concensus about a player that's been passed around by other scouts or talking heads. Same argument goes for talking heads as well and their thoughts.

It will all be revealed on the field.

[bobblehead]

But what has Cutler ever done in college or the pros that would cause anyone to declare this guy the second coming of Sid Luckman?? Yes, he's an upgrade for the pandas but that wouldn't take much...

Cutler has won almost 2/3rds of all the games he has started in the NFL.

I'm thinking that Tyrone is displaying his sharp humor here, but the line did startle me at first, so much so that I had to look it up to be sure - Cutler's record as a starter is 17 - 20. Ya almost got me, Ty, you clever guy.

NO MORE USING FACTS!!! Its just not fair when you do.

[Waldo]

Can we finally run for both big yards in ZBS AND have some success short yardage?

Done make me go stat hunting.....

But on this fact, you have been duped. (see, I pointed out that this is specifically one of McGinn's gripes with the ZBS, but he has no facts to back it up, and he is DEAD WRONG).

The Packers the last 2 years have been one of the most successful short yardage teams in the NFL.

[bobblehead]

Honestly how does that guy even get paid to write about the Packers?

Mn has former beat writers and super homers infiltrating all levels of the national media.

McGinn's end of season eval would be straight C's and D's (and an F for TT), even if we won the superbowl.

How did someone that hates the Packers so much get to be a beat writer?

I guess though, following in Cliffy's footsteps.

You talk a big game, yet are proven wrong time and time again. I didn't see that check in the mail after you guaranteed Chillar or Bishop would be gone AND then again that Lasanah would be here.

I didn't guarantee anything. You are the one who throws out guarantees. The game is much too fluid to do anything of the sort.

Where is my check for Chillar not starting? I thought that he was our best linebacker. At least that is what you said.

I've also hit on a lot too. Who here thought we were going to keep Dietrich-Smith? How about cut Sutton? Keep Underwood and Jones?

Who else figured out pre draft that Matthews was the highest OLB on TT's board? How about pinned our 4th round pick, Lang, dead on, months before the draft. How about taking a FB in the mid rounds. What about figuring that the pick gained from Favre would most likely be used to trade up.

Actually Waldo I was the one who said Chillar was our best LB LAST YEAR. I also said he very well might not start if Barnett and Hawk are healthy. I don't mind having an honest debate with you, and I won't make it personal like partial did, but if you are going to bring back things I said, please keep it accurate....for instance if I said "chillar is a glorified SS" and dismissed him entirely right before he took a bunch of snaps from Hawk then you could quote me...oh wait, you said that not me.

Now, just like you said, its a fluid game and things change, but your track record isn't as good as many on here. Jeremy Thompson, Reggie White and all great pass rushers lining up on the right side. I could go on for awhile with this, but like you said, we all make mistakes and I can look back at a few of my predictions as well and blush. Overall, I'll put my track record against anyones, but like I said to nutz about painting himself into a corner, your high brow speeches where you go out of your way to sound smarter and occassionally are dismissive is what makes people take that childesh glee when you are wrong.

Bottom line: McGinn NUTTED the win loss record for the packers two years running, so I'll value his opinion quite often. His article wasn't bagging on rodgers, it was informative. As packer fans we might all want to dismiss Cutler and declare Rodgers much better, but Cutler passed for 4500 yards last season. He at the very least belongs in the debate with ARod....and that is why McGinn gets paid for this stuff and you and I don't.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

But what has Cutler ever done in college or the pros that would cause anyone to declare this guy the second coming of Sid Luckman?? Yes, he's an upgrade for the pandas but that wouldn't take much...

Cutler has won almost 2/3rds of all the games he has started in the NFL.

By my count he is 17-20 as a starter.

And, that my friend is why i usually use the much derided emoticons.

Sarcasm.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

You talk a big game, yet are proven wrong time and time again. I didn't see that check in the mail after you guaranteed Chillar or Bishop would be gone AND then again that Lasanah would be here.

You talk a big game. Guys like McGinn speak softly and carry a big stick.

Man is that funny coming out of your mouth!!! :lol:

Since when? I have opinions and will own them. I'm not ashamed of what I think, and rarely does something that I have a firm stance get proven wrong:

Ike - Blew out an ACL before he could run screwed up his chances
Young - Has shown flashes of being spectacular
Rodgers - Was average last year, looks a lot better this year, have owned it and said I very likely could be wrong but we will see come the season.

What say you?

The only time Young showed flashes of spectacular was in college.

90% of teams would love to have their Qb have Aaron's "average" year from last year.

Morency??

Never did I claim Morency to be a star. I said he could be a solid starter. I was wrong.

Was Young not flashing when we won rookie of the year, largely because of his clutch play? It takes QBs a long time. Especially ones that aren't known for their arm. Leinart is finally coming around and he was a senior. Young left after a junior and wasn't known as a passer so I will give him another year. Guy has undeniable talent. Whether that talent translates to the pros and pro bowls, we'll see.

90%? I don't believe that number to be true at all. That's 29 teams. You really think 29 teams would rather have Rodgers than there guy? I do not.this is why you have such a hard time. Sometimes i really question whether you attended college or even can read.

Nobody said 90% would want Arod, he said 90% would want Arod's average year. Big differene.

Try reading and most importanly comprehending.

And, yes, 90% would want their QB to put up Arod's season #s.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Honestly how does that guy even get paid to write about the Packers?

Mn has former beat writers and super homers infiltrating all levels of the national media.

McGinn's end of season eval would be straight C's and D's (and an F for TT), even if we won the superbowl.

How did someone that hates the Packers so much get to be a beat writer?

I guess though, following in Cliffy's footsteps.

You talk a big game, yet are proven wrong time and time again. I didn't see that check in the mail after you guaranteed Chillar or Bishop would be gone AND then again that Lasanah would be here.

You talk a big game. Guys like McGinn speak softly and carry a big stick.

I have the nuts to make bold predictions and stand behind what I think. And you....

McGinn hides behind his "scouts" like a little girl.

The Packers supposedly "top" beat reporter thinks that Jay Culter is better than Rodgers, at least that is what he seems to be trying to get across. But he does it in a fucked up backhanded way, name dropping "scouts" so he can appear to come across as this unbiased source that has the inside scoop from game insiders. What if he actually polled 7 scouts, but the overall results didn't fit his headline?

It can't be proven, but IMO he is write the headline, add the data reporter/analyst, and not vice versa. Football outsiders has been caught doing this several times, to the point where any analysis and predictions they make need to be taken with a grain of salt, slight unassuming tweaks of some of their basic arbitrary assumptions can in fact prove the opposite conclusion to be true with the exact same data.

Something about the way Bob writes, practically everything he writes ends with a point the crooked finger barb at something, and he comes across as always writing in a pissed off tone.

You know why the Vikings are the best at everything in the press? Because their beat reporters are big time nob slobbers, and they move up the ladder into the national press. Also the reason that at low hype times for the Pack, anti Pack hype builds rapidly. When the Pack struggles slightly, look how quick guys are to point it out. All the effuse praise for Vikes players is not warranted. Who here knows that their "great" guard is actually a pretty bad pass blocker, and the stats bear it out. Why all the hype and praise for AD's greatness when DeAngelo had a much better season, and is totally flying under the radar in the press.

Instead of our homer beat writers moving up into the national spotlight, giving the Packers love all the time, that is what out opponents do, thus the national press loves them and is quick to criticize the Pack, while our beat reporters spend their time in a vain attempt to prove that in fact TT is an idiot, quick to be critical of anything and everything that will make him look bad.

Dude,

I'm sorry, but i read that story and in no way did i get the same impressions as you.

It might be time for you to admit you have a mcginn bias and evaluate whether it is affecting your ability to read his stories and interpret the material.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

But what has Cutler ever done in college or the pros that would cause anyone to declare this guy the second coming of Sid Luckman?? Yes, he's an upgrade for the pandas but that wouldn't take much...

Cutler has won almost 2/3rds of all the games he has started in the NFL.

He's 17 - 20 as an NFL starter in his career.

Wow. How long have i been posting and you can't even tell sarcasm? Sigh.

At least Fritz got it, after being semi fooled.

for shame, ky, for shame.

[Pugger]

At Vanderbilt Cutler finished with an 11-34 record as a starter.

[Lurker64]

At Vanderbilt Cutler finished with an 11-34 record as a starter.

The thing I'm wondering about, is did he ever have a winning season in high school? In Pop Warner?

Ah, looked it up. At Heritage High School in Lincoln Indiana, Cutler went 26-1 through his Junior and Senior seasons, with a perfect season for a state championship his senior year.

Well, at least the kid has had some success...

[pbmax]

At Vanderbilt Cutler finished with an 11-34 record as a starter.

The thing I'm wondering about, is did he ever have a winning season in high school? In Pop Warner?

Ah, looked it up. At Heritage High School in Lincoln Indiana, Cutler went 26-1 through his Junior and Senior seasons, with a perfect season for a state championship his senior year.

Well, at least the kid has had some success...
Just like Shaq, a champion all his life up through High School.

[pbmax]

Can we finally run for both big yards in ZBS AND have some success short yardage?

Done make me go stat hunting.....

But on this fact, you have been duped. (see, I pointed out that this is specifically one of McGinn's gripes with the ZBS, but he has no facts to back it up, and he is DEAD WRONG).

The Packers the last 2 years have been one of the most successful short yardage teams in the NFL.
I agree that the Pack were good in 2008. Hence my point that one year the Packers broke long runs (2007) and one year they killed in short yardage (2008). I also broke my own rule by referring to the running game as ZBS only, but many of Grant's in 07 were on Zone runs.

I can't argue 2007 on anything other than memory because I have never found a reliable source for short yardage statistics. If you have such a website, please pass it along.

In 08, this forum was counting the short yardage plays like Golden Tickets as everyone was deathly afraid of another fullback dive.

[Waldo]

I've never found a good source for run only statistics, but I have seen general 3rd and short statistics.

2007 there was a Chicken or Egg situation. They didn't even bother running on 3rd and short most of the time (which is what the argument changed to, from failing on 3rd down, to being "forced" to pass because of an assumption of failing). The question is, did they not choose to run on 3rd and short because they sucked at it, or did they choose to pass on 3rd and short because they excelled at it? Statistically we were one of the best on 3rd and short.

The "Fab 5" was a fan favorite in 2007. MM first busted it out in 2006 as a short yardage/goal line play. In 2006 we tried in vain to pick those things up but couldn't, and MM adapted adding in the 5 WR shotgun set on occasion.

In 2007 the use grew big time, and even on other downs. But it was still mostly used as a 3rd and short / GL situational play. Overall it is a crappy play for moving down the field (unless playing a team with a garbo secondary used to always playing off coverage), but with Favre and our WR's it was very reliable for a yard or two.

Why change something that is working well? No method of gaining a first down is superior to any other method. But after the failings of 2006 (of course aided by the running commentary by the press), when they lined up to pass on 3rd and 1, people got angry at the ZBS and lauded it as a failure. Never mind that MM figured out a passing play that we converted with the reliability of an elite power running team.

[ThunderDan]

You talk a big game, yet are proven wrong time and time again. I didn't see that check in the mail after you guaranteed Chillar or Bishop would be gone AND then again that Lasanah would be here.

You talk a big game. Guys like McGinn speak softly and carry a big stick.

Man is that funny coming out of your mouth!!! :lol:

Since when? I have opinions and will own them. I'm not ashamed of what I think, and rarely does something that I have a firm stance get proven wrong:

Ike - Blew out an ACL before he could run screwed up his chances
Young - Has shown flashes of being spectacular
Rodgers - Was average last year, looks a lot better this year, have owned it and said I very likely could be wrong but we will see come the season.

What say you?

There is no reason to argue with you again on these issues. Once again when 4,000+ yards and 28 TDs is average in the NFL call me!!

[Waldo]

Honestly how does that guy even get paid to write about the Packers?

Mn has former beat writers and super homers infiltrating all levels of the national media.

McGinn's end of season eval would be straight C's and D's (and an F for TT), even if we won the superbowl.

How did someone that hates the Packers so much get to be a beat writer?

I guess though, following in Cliffy's footsteps.

You talk a big game, yet are proven wrong time and time again. I didn't see that check in the mail after you guaranteed Chillar or Bishop would be gone AND then again that Lasanah would be here.

You talk a big game. Guys like McGinn speak softly and carry a big stick.

I have the nuts to make bold predictions and stand behind what I think. And you....

McGinn hides behind his "scouts" like a little girl.

The Packers supposedly "top" beat reporter thinks that Jay Culter is better than Rodgers, at least that is what he seems to be trying to get across. But he does it in a fucked up backhanded way, name dropping "scouts" so he can appear to come across as this unbiased source that has the inside scoop from game insiders. What if he actually polled 7 scouts, but the overall results didn't fit his headline?

It can't be proven, but IMO he is write the headline, add the data reporter/analyst, and not vice versa. Football outsiders has been caught doing this several times, to the point where any analysis and predictions they make need to be taken with a grain of salt, slight unassuming tweaks of some of their basic arbitrary assumptions can in fact prove the opposite conclusion to be true with the exact same data.

Something about the way Bob writes, practically everything he writes ends with a point the crooked finger barb at something, and he comes across as always writing in a pissed off tone.

You know why the Vikings are the best at everything in the press? Because their beat reporters are big time nob slobbers, and they move up the ladder into the national press. Also the reason that at low hype times for the Pack, anti Pack hype builds rapidly. When the Pack struggles slightly, look how quick guys are to point it out. All the effuse praise for Vikes players is not warranted. Who here knows that their "great" guard is actually a pretty bad pass blocker, and the stats bear it out. Why all the hype and praise for AD's greatness when DeAngelo had a much better season, and is totally flying under the radar in the press.

Instead of our homer beat writers moving up into the national spotlight, giving the Packers love all the time, that is what out opponents do, thus the national press loves them and is quick to criticize the Pack, while our beat reporters spend their time in a vain attempt to prove that in fact TT is an idiot, quick to be critical of anything and everything that will make him look bad.

Dude,

I'm sorry, but i read that story and in no way did i get the same impressions as you.

It might be time for you to admit you have a mcginn bias and evaluate whether it is affecting your ability to read his stories and interpret the material.

Headline - QB's
-The division sucked last year
-Everybody but us got a new QB
-Who is the best?
-Cutler is the better than Rodgers
-Praise of Cutler
-Slight lead in to records
-Packers lead
-Little discussion
-Why scouts thought the other teams would win
-Favre concerns
-Player turnover in Detroit

After the Cutler section everything else randomly jumped from topic to topic with no lead in.

The take notice punchline in the article is "Who is the best?", the rest is pretty blah

There is a clear flow from headline, intro, punchline, answer, after that is just a bunch of fluff really.

This time of year is full of predictions, ESPN, SI, NFLN....all the who is better stuff. Most sources say that AR is the best.

Call me crazy, but the top dog beat reporter for a team should not put out a "who is better" on the eve of the season, saying that our rivals QB is better than ours, when most of the national media disagrees with him. If it was clear cut, sure why not, say he's better, but if it is up to debate, why?

Especially since right now fandom is in the midst of a little Rodgers mania, and many parts of the national media are predicting an MVP like season for him. It is one thing to try to tone down expectations, quite another to pee in our cornflakes.

Sure he can try to hide behind journalistic objectivity and say "scouts said it, not me", but he still wrote it. Even if he claimed his info is from elsewhere, he wrote an article on the eve of the 2009 season that said Culter is better than Rodgers. His name is on the article, his name is attached to that prediction. And yes, this time of year, that is a prediction. You can argue the merits of "right now" as to when it applies when talking who's better with football players in the offseason, but 3 days from kickoff, right now is the upcoming season.

A good % of the national media is saying MVP like season, the JSO's top dog is saying the Bears QB is better. Pathetic. As time fades the whole "scouts" thing will disappear. If Rodgers wins the MVP, people will remember that buzzkill JSO writer that says Cutler is better.

We'll we get to see the QB that is better than AR in a little over 2 days.

The worst part about it, for 17 years our beat writers were the biggest Favre homers, our QB was god.

What happened?

I don't remember articles about Culpepper being better than Favre, when Daunte was getting his roll on, and at the time, that was certainly just as debatable as Rodgers vs. Cutler.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Honestly how does that guy even get paid to write about the Packers?

Mn has former beat writers and super homers infiltrating all levels of the national media.

McGinn's end of season eval would be straight C's and D's (and an F for TT), even if we won the superbowl.

How did someone that hates the Packers so much get to be a beat writer?

I guess though, following in Cliffy's footsteps.

You talk a big game, yet are proven wrong time and time again. I didn't see that check in the mail after you guaranteed Chillar or Bishop would be gone AND then again that Lasanah would be here.

You talk a big game. Guys like McGinn speak softly and carry a big stick.

I have the nuts to make bold predictions and stand behind what I think. And you....

McGinn hides behind his "scouts" like a little girl.

The Packers supposedly "top" beat reporter thinks that Jay Culter is better than Rodgers, at least that is what he seems to be trying to get across. But he does it in a fucked up backhanded way, name dropping "scouts" so he can appear to come across as this unbiased source that has the inside scoop from game insiders. What if he actually polled 7 scouts, but the overall results didn't fit his headline?

It can't be proven, but IMO he is write the headline, add the data reporter/analyst, and not vice versa. Football outsiders has been caught doing this several times, to the point where any analysis and predictions they make need to be taken with a grain of salt, slight unassuming tweaks of some of their basic arbitrary assumptions can in fact prove the opposite conclusion to be true with the exact same data.

Something about the way Bob writes, practically everything he writes ends with a point the crooked finger barb at something, and he comes across as always writing in a pissed off tone.

You know why the Vikings are the best at everything in the press? Because their beat reporters are big time nob slobbers, and they move up the ladder into the national press. Also the reason that at low hype times for the Pack, anti Pack hype builds rapidly. When the Pack struggles slightly, look how quick guys are to point it out. All the effuse praise for Vikes players is not warranted. Who here knows that their "great" guard is actually a pretty bad pass blocker, and the stats bear it out. Why all the hype and praise for AD's greatness when DeAngelo had a much better season, and is totally flying under the radar in the press.

Instead of our homer beat writers moving up into the national spotlight, giving the Packers love all the time, that is what out opponents do, thus the national press loves them and is quick to criticize the Pack, while our beat reporters spend their time in a vain attempt to prove that in fact TT is an idiot, quick to be critical of anything and everything that will make him look bad.

Dude,

I'm sorry, but i read that story and in no way did i get the same impressions as you.

It might be time for you to admit you have a mcginn bias and evaluate whether it is affecting your ability to read his stories and interpret the material.

Headline - QB's
-The division sucked last year
-Everybody but us got a new QB
-Who is the best?
-Cutler is the better than Rodgers
-Praise of Cutler
-Slight lead in to records
-Packers lead
-Little discussion
-Why scouts thought the other teams would win
-Favre concerns
-Player turnover in Detroit

After the Cutler section everything else randomly jumped from topic to topic with no lead in.

The take notice punchline in the article is "Who is the best?", the rest is pretty blah

There is a clear flow from headline, intro, punchline, answer, after that is just a bunch of fluff really.

This time of year is full of predictions, ESPN, SI, NFLN....all the who is better stuff. Most sources say that AR is the best.

Call me crazy, but the top dog beat reporter for a team should not put out a "who is better" on the eve of the season, saying that our rivals QB is better than ours, when most of the national media disagrees with him. If it was clear cut, sure why not, say he's better, but if it is up to debate, why?

Especially since right now fandom is in the midst of a little Rodgers mania, and many parts of the national media are predicting an MVP like season for him. It is one thing to try to tone down expectations, quite another to pee in our cornflakes.

Sure he can try to hide behind journalistic objectivity and say "scouts said it, not me", but he still wrote it. Even if he claimed his info is from elsewhere, he wrote an article on the eve of the 2009 season that said Culter is better than Rodgers. His name is on the article, his name is attached to that prediction. And yes, this time of year, that is a prediction. You can argue the merits of "right now" as to when it applies when talking who's better with football players in the offseason, but 3 days from kickoff, right now is the upcoming season.

A good % of the national media is saying MVP like season, the JSO's top dog is saying the Bears QB is better. Pathetic. As time fades the whole "scouts" thing will disappear. If Rodgers wins the MVP, people will remember that buzzkill JSO writer that says Cutler is better.

We'll we get to see the QB that is better than AR in a little over 2 days.

The worst part about it, for 17 years our beat writers were the biggest Favre homers, our QB was god.

What happened?

I don't remember articles about Culpepper being better than Favre, when Daunte was getting his roll on, and at the time, that was certainly just as debatable as Rodgers vs. Cutler.

Waldo,

Your bias is showing.


Headline - QB's (NOPE: QBS Rising...that means all...positive note...but, headlines aren't written by McGinn)
-The division sucked last year
-Everybody but us got a new QB (seems like you are implying something negative...nice of you to leave out that part where he says Arod was 6th)
-Who is the best?
-Cutler is the better than Rodgers (key words used...nod...slight margins...)
-Praise of Cutler (Praise....'gives them a, quote-unquote, bona fide quarterback'...that is damning with faint praise)
-Slight lead in to records
-Packers lead
-Little discussion (nice of you to ignore the 'I really think Rodgers is set to come out and do big things' quote...that is as much as was written about Cutler...yet you labeled that as praise...lol)
-Why scouts thought the other teams would win
-Favre concerns
-Player turnover in Detroit


Yes, i will call you crazy. Why shouldn't he? Who the fuck cares...my god, you are acting like a child. Your acting like he is being irresponsible by putting this story out. And, i look for the beat writer and his sources to provide me info that the national talking heads don't know. There is a huge difference tween espn's writers and analysts and a scout. And, i find your use of them to be hypocritical as you would be the first to note how they really dont' know our team that well.

As for disagrees with him. You are personalizing this. It is mcginn's opinion. I don't know if mcginn thinks favre is the best...he is telling us what scouts say. Unless you can prove that he polled 5 scouts that he knew would give him the answers he wanted..so as to write a stealth "cutler is best" story....you should just quit this bullshit.

He is peeing in the cornflakes...dude, you are now rivaling partial. Seriously. I usually like what you write, but this is ridiculous. Even a smart guy like yourself should realize that the MVP and "best" aren't synonymous. This is a longstanding argument. And, for you to pretend that the MVP goes to the best player, well, it really makes you look stupid. And, previously i thought of you as smart.

Deciding what to write about because Arod might win an mvp...fuck, that is even more ridiculous. Mcginn and the jsonline are their own business. They dont' make decisions based on what the trib is running or what espn is doing.

As for remember, the only one who is going to remember is you...seems like you are pretty petty. Most of us want even recall an article written before the season.

As for, Culpepper vs. Favre...well, if you don't recall...then why bring it up. And just because they didnt' write it then is no logic to not do it now. Really, this is your argument? Maybe they didn't write it because Favre was a MVP and Culpepper wasn't..or Favre was a multiple MVP.

1. Find one sentence where mcginn says cutler is better. Just one.
2. He isn't hiding, he is quoting sources. If he is hiding, then you are speculating.
3. Who are you to say what type of stories he should write. He has an editor. That person makes the decision. I and others have no problem with the story.
4. There are plenty of people that think Cutler is better than Rodgers..and vice versa. So what? The story gives you an idea of what some scouts are saying.
5. Prediction? How so. The article didn't go into who will have a better season. It addressed who was thought to be the best. You are, i'm sorry to say, being ridiculous. I don't know exactly what your issue is, but it sounds like you are one of those people that needs to have all local writers think our players are the best.


I'm going to tell you something, waldo. Before this post of yours and this whole mcginn thing...i had a lot more respect for your posts (not that i assume you care one whit about ty's opinion or others). I thought partial was crazy for calling you out. Now i'm not so sure. And, anyone on this forum will tell you it takes a lot for me to side with partial. I want that to sink in....your post is that deranged imho, that i'm now considering siding with partial. Please, think about it...don't make me side with him. I'm begging you...come to your senses.

At the risk of offending both you and our female posters...you are coming off like a crazy, menopausal, illogical woman...who feels something, more than she thinks.

Please stick to facts, analyzing trends, giving insight into schemes, etc...you are GREAT AT THAT...but as a media critic, frankly, you are terrible.

[boiga]

Sheesh, the season really needs to start already.

[Fritz]

"McGinn hides behind his "scouts" like a little girl. "

I'm feeling Waldo channeling Arnold Schwarzenegger here. Or Dana Carvey. I'm not sure.

Oh god. Now whenever I read a Waldo post I'm going to hear it in my head like Hans and Franz from SNL.

I'm doomed.

[MJZiggy]

"McGinn hides behind his "scouts" like a little girl. "

I'm feeling Waldo channeling Arnold Schwarzenegger here. Or Dana Carvey. I'm not sure.

Oh god. Now whenever I read a Waldo post I'm going to hear it in my head like Hans and Franz from SNL.

I'm doomed.

That could be kinda fun, actually.

[Waldo]

Here's the deal Ty.

That which we know as the Green Bay Packers is not just Lambeau field, MM, and a couple of players. There is a whole spectrum of things that make it up, and most of the time the JSO/GBPG are the Packers even moreso than the players.

The players are just concepts and quotes for the bulk of the year. Then in the fall you get 4 preseason games, 16 regular season games, and perhaps the playoffs, 3 hours each.

At all other times the Green Bay Packers are the JSO and GBPG. Most national media information trickles up from them. Are they good? Well, lets see what the JSO has to say.

There is a symbiotic relationship between the team and the beat press. The better one is, the better the other is.

Most people don't know shit about football. The ones that do know very little. Nobody can remember shit (honestly, think of more then 5 distinct plays that any random player was involved in). Fan groupthink and the press largely create "good" and "bad".

You know what makes players good in the NFL? People talking about the fact that they are the shit. Stats can "prove" that a player is the shit, but outside of stats, most of the time most people need somebody else to tell them that something is good or bad.

Football is too complex for anybody to follow, no matter how hard you try. There is just too much information.

I don't think that any of the GB papers take the fact that they are the Packers just as much as the team seriously. They are a gad damn embarrassment half the time.

Most fanbases have a lunatic fringe. In GB, most fans are the lunatic fringe. The fucked up concepts that the press discusses half the time makes it way to the mainstream, and you end up with riled up fans running around nuts. I listen to a lot of Sirius NFL radio. Most fanbases are fairly normal. GB's are a bunch of nutcases.

Boy, I can't wait until my first trip to the Packer bar this year. It is obvious what the topic of convo is going to be pregame early this year. Should we cut AJ Hawk.. Aj Hawk is a bust... He can't handle it.... I've already had people at work come up to me, fans of other teams, talking about it, saying their Packer fan friends.... This shit didn't originate last season. It is solely from what people read online about the Packers.

I've been around a lot of message boards for a long time. Almost all noobs are god damn nutcases. Their view of shit is so god damn skewed it is crazy. Most of them are not hardcore fans. They are a product of their perception; what they saw on TV, the little they recall, and what was wrote about it, what they are told is good, what they are told is bad.

The experience of Green Bay Packers could be so much better if the press did its part. But they don't. They come from this fucked up point of view that is partially created of fact, partially a creation of ignorance, partially a creation of an agenda.

Have you ever got the impression, from any of GB's reporters, that they actually like the Packers? That they are interested in the team? That they are Packer fans?

The press create storylines that live on for a long time. Fandom doesn't forget. Like the short yardage thing. The hatred of Ted Thompson. He fucking cut Mike Wahle. Get over it.

Instead of harping on that idiot TT for cutting Sutton and Smith, they could tell fans about players like Jarius Wynn and Evan Dietrich-Smith that played great for us this summer, but they didn't notice, because they were too fixated on proving that Hawk is a bust. If they sat down and did the legwork, they would know that Wynn was not credited with a sack he had in the Az game, instead Lansanah got a TFL (the QB has the ball in his hands and it is a TFL, mmk), add that in and he tied with Everette Brown for #2 amongst all rookie's for sacks. Not to mention he had an int causing QB hit, and got a lot of pressure. That shit ain't normal. Especially for a 3-4 DE. He looked better in preseason than Tyson Jackson and Evander Hood. And Ted dug him up in the 6th round.

But that isn't important. The little midget that could, a RB that has a speed profile like Noah Herron that can't pass block to save his life, he was really special. And Ted that fucking moron cut him. Uh oh, AJ is getting benched on pass downs, time for the B word.

There is a finite amount of story space. The little bit they print is fan perception. While one could say don't read it, there is nothing else. That which they choose to write, that which they choose to ignore, says just as much as what the substance is. It isn't the reporters, they are just doing their job, the editors, they are god. Millions of Packer fans, what they know and don't know about the team, is largely the creation of 2 people; the editor at the GBPG and the JSO. The job they have done, is simply sad and irresponsible.

There is positive hype and negative hype. Most teams have a little of both. There is very little positive hype that originates from our press, the little that there is only comes about if they are bludgeoned by it. They create very, very little on their own. Some teams press creates a ton. They are talked about on TV all the time, their players are great, they all go to pro bowls. You think that it is Jerry that has convinced the world that every player on the Cowboys is the shit. Do you really think those Vikings are actually that good? Both have a beat press that is capable of creating positive hype.

[MJZiggy]

All that and you completely left out lazy. It's easier to jump on the story you've already created, so why not just find an anonymous "scout from another team" to say what you want to write so you don't have to work to find a new story.

[mission]

Waldo - You headed up to TJs on Sunday? I was going to but since the game is on national TV, I might wait until the following game. Who knows, might make a fun Sunday night out with the chica anyway. :D

[Waldo]

Waldo - You headed up to TJs on Sunday? I was going to but since the game is on national TV, I might wait until the following game. Who knows, might make a fun Sunday night out with the chica anyway. :D

I'm gonna wait until next weekend. I can drink more at home, at TJ's I gotta stop in the 3rd QTR.

Next week though....

Say Hi, 3rd booth from the main screen up front. I have a Barnett jersey, my wife has a Finley jersey.

[pbmax]

Wynn was not credited with a sack he had in the Az game, instead Lansanah got a TFL (the QB has the ball in his hands and it is a TFL, mmk), add that in and he tied with Everette Brown for #2 amongst all rookie's for sacks. Not to mention he had an int causing QB hit, and got a lot of pressure. That shit ain't normal. Especially for a 3-4 DE. He looked better in preseason than Tyson Jackson and Evander Hood. And Ted dug him up in the 6th round.
Seriously funny and a good read, Waldo, congrats. I look forward to the Jarius Wynn era even more after a paragraph like that.

However, the Packer press does create positive hype. Recent examples are AJ Hawk, Tyrell Sutton and Atari Bigby/Anthony Smith. The Hawk hype was largely from his draft status and rookie year, but it was real. When his big plays declined (even if they declined due to injury and position/scheme change) the hype reverted to its more insidious form, the prophecy of doom.

Same with Sutton. Preseason of all positive yardage and a natural at one cut running. Even a brief stint with the 1s and 2s and everyone is excited. He gets a tryout as a returner and is WAY to slow to make it. That makes him a special teams liability because he can't be a gunner and he isn't going to block somebody. He isn't good enough to unseat Grant or Jackson. Even though every article states he cannot be trusted to block on third down passing, he gets cut and people are surprised. This is the downside of hype, unfulfilled expectations.

Bigby was hyped as the big hitter who has now been injured. The press cannot tell if he is still slowed or if he has had trouble with the scheme change. But Smith knows the defense and has been knocking heads against 2s and 3s. He also had a INT. He clearly was the heir apparent to Bigby if Atari failed to regain his status. But your backup needs to play special teams and Smith was not as good at that as another guy who came available.

The Packer press knows the Packers have struggled with special teams for several years (except 07). But they don't know what would fix that beside firing the coach.

In some ways, if the Packer press spent more time hyping and fluffing starters, they would be disappointed less. But I don't think they do this more or less than Minneapolis or Dallas. I will give you this, each of those cities is likely big enough that there is one outlet that is primarily the team mouthpiece. The Packers may not have that beside Larivee and McCarren.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Waldo,

i fundamentally disagree that the press are the packers. Sorry, not buying that logic at all.

What i do get, mostly, from your post, is that you blame the media for stupid, idiotic fans or that they contribute to that. Maybe, maybe not.

Blaming the media for fans is kinda simplistic and well...it is easy to blame them. Perhaps instead of blaming them, your mission should be to educate each fan. LOL

As for liking the media liking the pack: I don't care if they do or don't. Personally, i don't want to know what they feel about the team. I would prefer that they are neutral and as objective as they can be. If they care to discuss their fandom, do it in a chat or blog. I think that most are fans of the sport and the NFL.

You and i are fundamentally opposite on how we view the press. I happen to think you are 100% wrong on that. But, it is a prevailing parochial view in wisco.

What is funny is that you want that, but decry that the writers were in favre's corner. Hard to be a fan and be a professional writer. Hard to be detached if you are a fan.

As for correcting mistaken view vs. stories. Look, this is your passion and have untold amount of time to go over film. The writers don't have that luxury. They have to file a story and produce more content. I guarantee more people are going to want the 3 hours it would take to review a preseason game to credit wynn be spent writing new stories, finding new information, or creating a story like Rising QBs.

Fans are voracious and the must be fed. Whether you think mcginn is working hard, you cannot possibly deny the appetite of the fans and the increased demand that the internet has wrought.

If Mcginn spent time on details and missed a story....fans would be in an uproar.

You are way in the minority. What is scary to me is how unaware you are of this.

What i also get is that you need to relax and take a breath...and chill out. Seriously, relax. If stupid fans and their inane theories are getting to you...might be time to lose this hobby or stay at home.

What is even funnier to me is how you feel this way...yet somehow can't see how covering the pack and dealing with idiot fans year after year could have affected McGinn or Cliff. Nothing in their schooling or job description ever said they had to be nice...and continued interaction thru blogs and chats...well, square pegs round holes.

[Waldo]

Blaming the media for fans is kinda simplistic and well...it is easy to blame them. Perhaps instead of blaming them, your mission should be to educate each fan. LOL

I try....

But there is only so much that I can do.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Here's a former scout (scouted 15 years in the NFL) who picks Rodgers. Does that mean it's 3 to 3 in this vote by scouts (with a VERY small sample size)?

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/25773

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Blaming the media for fans is kinda simplistic and well...it is easy to blame them. Perhaps instead of blaming them, your mission should be to educate each fan. LOL

I try....

But there is only so much that I can do.

Sounds like an excuse to me. I'll give you a heads up, i tried reading your blog...and for someone who knows football is complicated and most don't understand it...your blog doesn't reflect that.


Hope you'd be as generous to mcginn as you are to yourself. :wink:

[Waldo]

Blaming the media for fans is kinda simplistic and well...it is easy to blame them. Perhaps instead of blaming them, your mission should be to educate each fan. LOL

I try....

But there is only so much that I can do.

Sounds like an excuse to me. I'll give you a heads up, i tried reading your blog...and for someone who knows football is complicated and most don't understand it...your blog doesn't reflect that.


Hope you'd be as generous to mcginn as you are to yourself. :wink:

Its the place to write stuff down that I think that are too involved for a simple forum post.

And I don't understand shit. Then again, neither does anybody else. Except for a few people that get paid boatloads of money by teams.

It is easy to criticize....but at least I am trying, and put forth the effort.

[Waldo]

Wynn was not credited with a sack he had in the Az game, instead Lansanah got a TFL (the QB has the ball in his hands and it is a TFL, mmk), add that in and he tied with Everette Brown for #2 amongst all rookie's for sacks. Not to mention he had an int causing QB hit, and got a lot of pressure. That shit ain't normal. Especially for a 3-4 DE. He looked better in preseason than Tyson Jackson and Evander Hood. And Ted dug him up in the 6th round.
Seriously funny and a good read, Waldo, congrats. I look forward to the Jarius Wynn era even more after a paragraph like that.

NOBODY is acknowledging the scarcity of what Ted found. 3-4 DE's that can rush the passer are extremely rare. That is why Tyson went #3 overall. If he was only good at stopping the run, he would have been a 3rd-4th round pick. There are only a handful of 3-4 DE's that can rush the passer in the league.

Wynn wasn't just lucking into it either. That kid has an advanced pass rush for a first rounder. He has a primary and at least two good counters off of it. That is as much as any of our DL. He outplayed Jenkins agaisnt Az's starting LG. And he is a rookie.

While not terrible, he isn't strong against the run. He definitely needs to hit the weights. But right now, if I was coach,.....on 3rd and long and 2nd and very long, and 2 minute, Raji would be on the bench, and Wynn would be next to Jenkins, without question. And I would have no hesitation putting him in if there was an injury or somebody needed a breather.

Packer Update says the coaches think that he'll be a starter next year, I think that he'll start at least 1 game this season.

IMO he is the 2nd most significant player break out this offseason, Finley being #1. Finley is acknowledged. Ted found a 3-4 DE that excels at rushing the passer, and nobody is talking about it. What the hell is going on.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Waldo,

I hope you are right. I'm just a little hesitant. Somebody on here similarly touted Mike "Neon" Hawkins when he was a rookie.
:D

[RashanGary]

Sounds to me like it's close. Remember, a lot of 'scouts' passed on Rodgers in 2005. They didn't believe in him then. It's harder to change someones opinion than it is to confirm it.


To even be on somewhat equal ground as Cutler is surprising. Rodgers had a great season.


I think Rodgers is better and after this season I think the scouts opinions will be lopsided toward Rodgers.

[pbmax]

Wynn was not credited with a sack he had in the Az game, instead Lansanah got a TFL (the QB has the ball in his hands and it is a TFL, mmk), add that in and he tied with Everette Brown for #2 amongst all rookie's for sacks. Not to mention he had an int causing QB hit, and got a lot of pressure. That shit ain't normal. Especially for a 3-4 DE. He looked better in preseason than Tyson Jackson and Evander Hood. And Ted dug him up in the 6th round.
Seriously funny and a good read, Waldo, congrats. I look forward to the Jarius Wynn era even more after a paragraph like that.

NOBODY is acknowledging the scarcity of what Ted found. 3-4 DE's that can rush the passer are extremely rare. That is why Tyson went #3 overall. If he was only good at stopping the run, he would have been a 3rd-4th round pick. There are only a handful of 3-4 DE's that can rush the passer in the league.
I think the pass rush (and bargain basement draft position) have been noticed by the press. But the org hasn't been hyping him and he is not slated to start. I grant you that even the fact that he made the roster is a big deal, given that we had 9 or 10 D lineman last year, more in camp and cut down to 6. So clearly they see at least some of what you see.

But until there is production in a game, the hype is not going to self-ignite. Sutton got hype because at times he seemed to be marching the team down the field himself. Wynn, despite QB sacks being a big draw, was succeeding more subtly.

If he does get into the actual games and produces QB pressure, I guarantee you your wish will be fulfilled by the press.

[RashanGary]

I've been impressed with Jarius Wynn's pass rush too, Waldo. He's shown he can beat NFL OL. If he can round out his game he'll be a starter. If not, he'll be a good situational pass rusher in the NFL. I think he's shown he can do that.

[RashanGary]

If Raji is healthy, there is ZERO chance Wynn plays pass rushing downs in front of him. Raji destroys single blockers.

There is a chance, even if everyone is healthy, that Wynn starts playing nickle WITH Jenkins and Raji if he proves he's harder to block than one of the linebackers is to game plan against. No way Raji comes out for Wynn as a pass rusher though. That is Raji's strength and I think Raji is one of the hardest to block, most unique DL in the NFL in that situation.

[Fritz]

What is slightly mysterious to me is the venom that so many people have for Thompson - even before the Favracle of last year. One of the ways that venom is expressed is through this derision of Thompson for trading down and "liking" late round picks. Yet Thompson's late-round picks (heck, even many of his mid-round picks - look at the right side of the offensive line) seem to often turn to gold.

Where exactly this severe bitterness comes from, I don't quite know. I have seen a couple (though only a couple) of interviews in which the Wisconsin press asks questions that seem imbedded with criticism (there have been threads on this before). But I'm not sure if the press has a full-out "angle" against Thompson.

I've seen good points on both sides of the debate in this thread. I agree with Waldo that a "team" is more than just a conglomeration of players, coaches, and employees. It is a concept, a story - it's a cultural myth, or can be, at least. To create and feed that myth - the purpose of which is to, of course, make money for the people who own the team or have some potential earnings from the team - the press often writes stories that are not neutral or objective, but try to create hope or twist events so they can be read in a way that is helpful to the myth.

There is no such thing as a neutral, objective story so far as I can tell. Sports sections of newspapers and, increasingly, television football announcers, are interested in narratives. While I'm watching a pre-season game against Cincinnati and want to know if Will Whitticker looks good enough as a rookie to start - crucial to the team's chances - the announces are harping over and over about Carson Palmer vs. Brett Favre, old guard and new guard. They're creating storylines, to sell the product. Neutral, objective observations don't sell stadium tickets and they don't sell newspapers. So these narratives create myths. In many places, the newspapers have to sell a certain kind of myth because it's not strong enough to stand alone. I don't agree with Waldo that it's positive spin all the time - if there's no conflict there's no story - but writers have to set up a team and its season as part of the overarching history of the team. Will Minny ever win a Super Bowl? That question - the "ever" part - is completely irrelevant to the current team. They weren't in Minnesota back then, hell, they weren't even born, probably. But it's part of the myth. In Detroit, every year, players are furious about being asked about whether this sorry franchise can be turned around. The players and coaches always, always, say the same thing: we weren't part of that past, that's irrelevant to us. This is now and we're starting out 0 - 0 like everyone else. Which is true but does not feed the cultural mythology of that team, which is created by fans, reporters, briefly by the players present and often stoked by players of the past (ex-Packers do this well). But a negative cultural myth can affect ticket sales and revenues, so reporters often do repeat that "is this the year they begin turning it around?" theme, and write stories about how the new coach is different, the new players, etc.

In certain places, and this is uncommon, the cultural myth becomes so strong that the press does not need to prop it up quite so much. The Packers are one such organization. The Chicago Cubs are another, market-size difference notwithstanding. So Packer beat reporters have more leeway to construct stories that contain more conflict - because the stadium's always sold out and people watch and watch and watch the Packers. The added conflict in the papers adds interest and thus the papers hope more of the product is sold.

So I agree with Waldo, but only to a point. I don't go quite so far in thinking that a reporter should be positive, which is what I'm sensing he is saying. He lauds organizations whose reporters seem more positive, I think. However, I do think that there can be some standards of fairness applied, and I also think that at times Packer reporters overstep those bounds. I find Detroit reporters stay withing those bounds of fairness, and sometimes even are meek. The one guy who wasn't has been fired/quit (Rob Parker) after what was deemed an unfair question to Marinelli last year.

On this board, I have found to several posters to be astute observers of the media covering the Packers, most notably in my mind Vince, Patler, and PB Max, though many others have chops, too, as Waldo and Tyrone have shown on this thread.

[packrat]

One guy on Denver talk radio is a prime example of how knocking local heroes is a sure fire attention getter. Callers responded rabidly when he knocked people from Elway to Cutler and didn't seem to "get it" that they were just being baited to get people to listen to the cat fight. Heck, it amused me enough to keep me listening even though I pretty much ignore the Broncos.