Whatever Happened to the Draw and the Fake Handoff?

[Fritz]

I was mulling important issues the other day as I drove to work, and these two came to mind:

Whatever happened to the draw play? I don't seem to be seeing it any more, and along with the screen, it used to be a staple against an anticipated blitz. Am I wrong that it's lost popularity? If I'm not wrong, why has it lost popularity?

Whatever happened to fake handoffs that actually looked like handoffs? Back in the day, a QB would actually shove the ball into the running back's belly, then withdraw it and hide it behind the QB's hip. Now it's either the empty hand used for the fake, or it's a mere gesture toward the running back. Is this because coaches now see the fake as needed only to slow the defenders' decision-making for a millisecond, as opposed to actually confusing the defender regarding where the ball is?

Half the fun of watching the old Oklahoma wishbone was watching the camera go all jerky because the cameraman couldn't figure out who the hell actually had the ball.

[Guiness]

damn! you just reminded me of something I'd tried to wipe from my mind, but I can now see it crystal clear.

Charlie Batch. Red zone against us, fakes a handoff (to ?) and then just stands there, holding the ball against his hip with one hand.

D bit, he throws a little blooper into the endzone for the TD and the win. I just about lost my flippin' mind.

[Waldo]

Whatever happened to fake handoffs that actually looked like handoffs? Back in the day, a QB would actually shove the ball into the running back's belly, then withdraw it and hide it behind the QB's hip. Now it's either the empty hand used for the fake, or it's a mere gesture toward the running back. Is this because coaches now see the fake as needed only to slow the defenders' decision-making for a millisecond, as opposed to actually confusing the defender regarding where the ball is?

Half the fun of watching the old Oklahoma wishbone was watching the camera go all jerky because the cameraman couldn't figure out who the hell actually had the ball.

Aaron said he focused on two big things this offseason, this was one of them. He has gotten noticeably better at it. He fooled the cameraman a few times in PS, and fooled half the defense on the Kuhn dive for TD.

[Southoftheborder]

My personal opinion on the draw is that with so many blitzes up the middle, the draw play has lost more yards than it has gained. It usually only works well if the blitz is on the outside.

As far as the fake handoff, I have to agree with you. I have see Peyton Manning do it very well and then hid it on his back hip like he was out of the play only to make a great pass to an open receiver.

Not to start a Farve bashing/defending thread, but for all the great things that Brett did with us, I often wondered why he never tried to develop a good fake. Especially considering all the effort spent when he would do the fake jump throw after handing the ball off. I always wondered if the jump fake throw actully ever helped.

[mraynrand]

Maybe we can have a guest appearance from Madden describing how Favre fakes the pass after a handoff, with all the amusing aspects of that play fake told over again. Similarly, Pat Summerall could talk about the removal of a tumor from his bladder.

[KYPack]

Fake hand-offs, yeah, more teams should run them. They accomplish a lot in addition to the fakery, they keep those LB's at home more and that always helps.

The draw is prettty dead. It may pop up now and again, but it is used rarely. Teams did watch for it, & when you sniff it out, it's a 3-4 yard loser. Most teams use the "son" of the draw, the slip screen. It's also a play in which you draw in the defense. but if it's not gonna go, the QB can just toss it away, so no loss of yards.

Favre and Tony Fisher could run the shit out of that play. Fish was an average back, but man he was great at the slip. The slip also keeps the lb's honest. You can slow a blizting team way down by running a couple good slips, then fake 'em for the rest of the game. Those LB's must honor the slip and they can't come flying.

[vince]

I think the draw play died in the NFL because it doesn't sell the pass well enough or for long enough and became ineffective.

In a lot of offenses, the draw has been replaced by the short underhand or overhand forward shovel pass to the running back, which allows the team to sell the pass better and develops slower than the draw, allowing the defense to penetrate more and the running back a better opportunity for a bigger hole to open against the rush.

EDIT: I guess I should have read KY's post... The "slip screen" eh? Is that the same as what I described KY?

[Fritz]

Good point about the draw, KY. It coincides with the West Coast using the pass to set up the run - a chant in the early Holmgren years was that he used the short pass like a running play. So your comment about the slip makes sense.

I'll be interested too in seeing how Rodgers fakes this year. If you can really fool a linebacker or two, instead of just getting them to pause, you might be able to spring a couple more big plays.

For some reason I always got a kick out of the fake jump, and wondered why no GB coach ever incorporated a fake handoff and then a real jump pass. How fun would that have been?

[Bossman641]

Good point about the draw, KY. It coincides with the West Coast using the pass to set up the run - a chant in the early Holmgren years was that he used the short pass like a running play. So your comment about the slip makes sense.

I'll be interested too in seeing how Rodgers fakes this year. If you can really fool a linebacker or two, instead of just getting them to pause, you might be able to spring a couple more big plays.

For some reason I always got a kick out of the fake jump, and wondered why no GB coach ever incorporated a fake handoff and then a real jump pass. How fun would that have been?

Tebow pulled a jump pass a year or 2 ago. The Gators like to line him up a few yards deep (can't remember if they do shotgun or pistol) and then have him follow the backs up the middle. It was a real successful play for them as Tebow is a battering ram. He took a few steps toward the line, jumped, clutched, and threw it in the back of the end zone. The announcers were going on and on about it.

I dunno why nobody tries it in the NFL, defenses probably too quick and smart.

[KYPack]

I think the draw play died in the NFL because it doesn't sell the pass well enough or for long enough and became ineffective.

In a lot of offenses, the draw has been replaced by the short underhand or overhand forward shovel pass to the running back, which allows the team to sell the pass better and develops slower than the draw, allowing the defense to penetrate more and the running back a better opportunity for a bigger hole to open against the rush.

EDIT: I guess I should have read KY's post... The "slip screen" eh? Is that the same as what I described KY?

Yeah, Vince.

It's all basically the same family of plays. A slip screen is like a shovel, but the idea of the play is the back "slips" out into the flat and becomes a receiver for the short toss. In all of 'em, you let the backers fly by you and then toss it to the back who is running at the DB's.

This whole group of plays is pretty delicate. You need a smart QB who can decoy the D and a good back who can sneak into position and ably catch a ball.

That Tony Fisher could only do one thing really good and that was slips. I'll never forget a play in 2006. Favre and Fish had a slip that was gonna go for miles. it was all set up, they just needed a brush block from the OG. Unfortunately, the OG was Wil Whittaker. WW tossed a no-hitter on that play (one of many), fanned the block and the play was blown up for a 1 yard gain. It wudda went for 20 or 30 if Whittaker would have gotten in the way of the LB. Favre tore off his chin strap and screamed at Whittaker all the way off the field. That guy was a bum.

[Packgator]

Tebow pulled a jump pass a year or 2 ago. The Gators like to line him up a few yards deep (can't remember if they do shotgun or pistol) and then have him follow the backs up the middle. It was a real successful play for them as Tebow is a battering ram. He took a few steps toward the line, jumped, clutched, and threw it in the back of the end zone. The announcers were going on and on about it.

Here's the first one.........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV_UBqbMi7A

Also did it in the national championship game........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBG2KVSTqcI

[HarveyWallbangers]

Not to start a Favre bashing/defending thread, but for all the great things that Brett did with us, I often wondered why he never tried to develop a good fake. Especially considering all the effort spent when he would do the fake jump throw after handing the ball off. I always wondered if the jump fake throw actully ever helped.

Kind of strange because I remember Bert being very good at this--even going back to his first season with us. I distinctly remember a game at Soldier Field where he made an excellent fake handoff, then threw a deep bomb to Sharpe.

[swede]

Not to start a Favre bashing/defending thread, but for all the great things that Brett did with us, I often wondered why he never tried to develop a good fake. Especially considering all the effort spent when he would do the fake jump throw after handing the ball off. I always wondered if the jump fake throw actully ever helped.

Kind of strange because I remember Bert being very good at this--even going back to his first season with us. I distinctly remember a game at Soldier Field where he made an excellent fake handoff, then threw a deep bomb to Sharpe.

I also remember some pretty good fakes by Brett. That's probably one of those skills that Irv Favre drilled into Brett when Irv coached high school ball.

[KYPack]

Not to start a Favre bashing/defending thread, but for all the great things that Brett did with us, I often wondered why he never tried to develop a good fake. Especially considering all the effort spent when he would do the fake jump throw after handing the ball off. I always wondered if the jump fake throw actully ever helped.

Kind of strange because I remember Bert being very good at this--even going back to his first season with us. I distinctly remember a game at Soldier Field where he made an excellent fake handoff, then threw a deep bomb to Sharpe.

I also remember some pretty good fakes by Brett. That's probably one of those skills that Irv Favre drilled into Brett when Irv coached high school ball.

You bet.

Irv ran the wishbone. Lot's a faking in that scheme.

Cost Brett a lot of scholarships.

Colleges had no idea he had a good arm. There was no film on him.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Brent really didn't need a great fake handoff to get defenders out of position. He didn't care what the defenders did as he had supreme confidence that his arm could make the play happen.

[Fritz]

My perception was that early in his career Favre was good at faking the handoff, but as time passed he began to gesture toward the running back - not a great fake. I attributed that not necessarily to him, though - I thought maybe there'd been a sea change amongst coaches, the thinking being maybe that actually sticking the ball in there and pulling it out was too dangerous, and that a motion alone for a fake would freeze the linebackers enough to buy the QB enough time. I know that later in his career, when Favre would hand the ball off he'd make it clear as day that that was what he was doing - he'd hold that ball right out there for the running back.

The extinction of the draw play makes sense. though. Why give the ball to a guy while the linebackers are still in front of him if you can toss it to him after the linebackers have gone by?

[swede]

My perception was that early in his career Favre was good at faking the handoff, but as time passed he began to gesture toward the running back - not a great fake. I attributed that not necessarily to him, though - I thought maybe there'd been a sea change amongst coaches, the thinking being maybe that actually sticking the ball in there and pulling it out was too dangerous, and that a motion alone for a fake would freeze the linebackers enough to buy the QB enough time. I know that later in his career, when Favre would hand the ball off he'd make it clear as day that that was what he was doing - he'd hold that ball right out there for the running back.

The extinction of the draw play makes sense. though. Why give the ball to a guy while the linebackers are still in front of him if you can toss it to him after the linebackers have gone by?

Agree completely.

Kind of random, but discussion of the shovel pass reminded me...If you saw the Steeler game last night (I caught the 4th qtr and OT) Ben Roethlisberger had almost no running game. He beat pressure once by stepping up as if he were going to run up the middle, darn near crossing the LOS, and then kind of hook-shotted a sideways pass to that little RB of theirs. What the heck would you call that play? It really wasn't so much of a shovel pass as it was a hook shot. I couldn't even tell if it was planned or if Big Ben was just making it up.

[Fritz]

Okay, here's what I don't understand. Back in the day - way back, admittedly - what is now called a shovel pass would then have been called a forward lateral and consequently been seen as illegal.

What the heck happened, and if a shovel pass is legal, then what even qualifies as a forward lateral any more?

[retailguy]

Okay, here's what I don't understand. Back in the day - way back, admittedly - what is now called a shovel pass would then have been called a forward lateral and consequently been seen as illegal.

What the heck happened, and if a shovel pass is legal, then what even qualifies as a forward lateral any more?

Doesn't it have something to do with being behind the line of scrimmage?

[Fritz]

That's a good question. Maybe if you're behind the line of scrimmage you can chuck it underhand to someone ahead of you. Can that person be across the line of scrimmage, though?

But in college - and I use this cuz some teams occasionally still use the option - the QB always tosses it back or laterally to a running back, never ahead to the running back.

I lack knowledge here.

[MJZiggy]

That's a good question. Maybe if you're behind the line of scrimmage you can chuck it underhand to someone ahead of you. Can that person be across the line of scrimmage, though?



Yes. The Favre pass in the 07 Seattle game was underhand and across the line of scrimmage. He did that fairly often.

[Fritz]

Then the only situation I can see that would possibly involve a forward lateral would be if a player was across the line of scrimmage already and then attempted to underhand the ball forward.

You also could be guilty if you tried to lateral the ball during a punt or kick return but you lateralled it forward (contradiction, I know).

But when did this change occur?

[MJZiggy]

I think it's only a problem once the ball crosses the line of scrimmage. If the QB crosses the line before passing, he gets flagged and I think once the ball carrier is out of the backfield, passes must be either true lateral or backward.

[KYPack]

Then the only situation I can see that would possibly involve a forward lateral would be if a player was across the line of scrimmage already and then attempted to underhand the ball forward.

You also could be guilty if you tried to lateral the ball during a punt or kick return but you lateralled it forward (contradiction, I know).

But when did this change occur?

You two are getting into the history of the game. The team on offense gets one forward pass per play. The forward pass must be thrown behind the LOS or in the neutral zone (no crossing the line, now, Majik!)

The lateral? Coaching types will get snotty with you if you use that term. It's properly the backward pass. A "forward lateral" is really an illegal forward pass and an oxymoron.

You get one forward pass per play. A backward pass has no limit, so Stanford can run down as many trobombonists as they want. Likewise, the back pass is a live ball after it hits the ground. On change of possession, the ball is spotted at the point of recovery. A recovered back pass can't be advanced by the defense.

Some people get screwed up by the throwing motion. It doesn't matter if you toss a football overhand or underhand, it's the direction of the pass.

When did the pass come in? I didn't look any of this up, so I don't have the date but 1909, 1910, somewhere in there. You used to have to be in certain areas of the field to throw the football. to help the officials, they marked the field off in 5 yard squares. That why football fields are called "gridirons'. They looked like a grid to drunken fans.

[Fritz]

But KY, I have distinct memories - from the 70's - of teams not being able to lateral the ball to someone who was slightly even in front of the person with the ball. Teams that ran the option told running backs to stay lateral to or slightly behind the quarterback so he could pitch it legally. I don't recall running backs ever running slightly ahead of the QB. It would have been illegal, I believe, to have a QB pitch the ball underhanded and forward.

So either I'm totally wrong (possible) and what is now called a "shovel pass" was always legal, or something changed since the 70's.

[KYPack]

But KY, I have distinct memories - from the 70's - of teams not being able to lateral the ball to someone who was slightly even in front of the person with the ball. Teams that ran the option told running backs to stay lateral to or slightly behind the quarterback so he could pitch it legally. I don't recall running backs ever running slightly ahead of the QB. It would have been illegal, I believe, to have a QB pitch the ball underhanded and forward.

So either I'm totally wrong (possible) and what is now called a "shovel pass" was always legal, or something changed since the 70's.

A shovel pass is actually an ancient football play. It wasn't made illegal, it just "went away". It was used way back as a type of counter out of the single wing or ND box formations. Like most things, it just has been revamped in a modern context.

All the backward pass pitches were a function of so many college teams using the wishbone or veer offenses. In those scheme, the pitchman was near the line and the back was trying to get to the edge. The QB would always pitch back, cause that's where the back was.

The "modern" shovel pass is a blitz control play. It's like the draw, but the guy getting the ball is up near the line and the QB is avoiding the blitz. The game and the schemes changed, but not much in the rules.

[Fritz]

I appreciate the info, KY. Thanks.

On your last point about rules changes, I read a fascinating article in the Atlantic last spring, I think, about subtle changes that greatly changed the game. One example is this: wide recievers used to line up in a three point stance. Now they stand up ,and the effect upon the game is nearly staggering - now receivers can see the whole field, and they can run routes much more efficiently as a result. Another change of course has to do with the 5-yard rule. Mugging was the norm before that, and though the game is still very physical, it's opened up the passing game.

But thanks most of all for the clarification. Guess I grew up in an era when the shovel pass was just out of fashion. But running the ball 55 times and passing it twice was the thing to do if you were Bo Schembecler. He was still running that dinosaur scheme even after he'd go out to Pasadena every other year and get spanked.