Do you believe in a Higher power?

[Fosco33]

I'm sure when most of us were at C-E this was debated too much - like beating a dead horse - but I wanted to see what everyone viewpoints are.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For me, I grew up Catholic, went to parochial school and was confirmed by Rembert Weakland (who had to resign after a scandal involving an adult man and a gay relationship).

I've never really believed in God - went through college calling myself an atheist or pseudo nihilist. Once you died, you're gone - thats all. I've debated and argued the Bible with many, many people without changing my position much.

Anyways, I post over at JSO from time to time and the Buck's forum started a thread about religion. I stated my views there and discussed plenty with Tex and Upnorthfan.

An odd thing happened to me last Monday afternoon in discussing these threads. I came back from lunch and out of nowhere - literally - I had a weird thought pop in my head. Evolution and the Big Bang don't rule out a Creator. There had to be a start to it all - no matter what.

That question (why are we here, how did it start) was never really important to me. I've been very fortunate in this life and haven't lost anyone close to me - surely grandparents passing is hard but they lived a long life. It was a passing thought but here's the weird part.

About that same time half way across the country, one of my best friends was killed instantly in a small, vintage aircraft in NE Arkansas. My other friend, his sister, called me and broke the news.

I don't yet know where my beliefs stand but these threads and the events of last week have made me question my own faith or lack thereof. I said a prayer for the first time in 10 years while touching his urn - both for my friend and his new wife and his sister - just to give them strength to begin to cope.

I flew my girlfriend and another close friend (a registered minister in nondenominational churches) to the viewing/funeral. In a town of 2500 people, the register showed over 1200 people paying their respects and there was a beautiful 'missing man' flyover by his crop dusting company. The charred plane and the crash scene is a very surreal feeling.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've had a week to think about the what ifs and will take a closer look at my faith. I hope one day to find what many here are passionate about - to have an afterlife to say hi to all my friends and family. Since then, I've had many dreams where I was in odd situations boasting my non belief in God with amazing clarity of His works (mainly in nature) - maybe as a sign or maybe my mind coping with this loss.

I'm a very pragmatic, logical person but will now continue to analyze these positions rather than choosing to ignore it all. I still believe in forms of evolution, strongly believe in continuous evolution of thought and hope that one day I'll find the answer out.

And I hope I've been wrong for the last 10 years - I really want to see my friend again someday.

The thing that I took from this, life can be taken at any time (he was 26 - like me). Don't let time go by without catching up w/ family and friends and live life on the edge - don't take up space.

Cheers-

Fos

[MadtownPacker]

Many years back when I was still messing up several homies where lost. Most by car accident, 1 by suicide and a few where murdered. It is a wake up call for sure. Just like you Im not sure what I believe but something put all this shit here.

[Deputy Nutz]

I am in the who knows boat. But the good thing is that I am catholic and I have been baptized so who gives a shit what I believe, I am in like Flint anyways.

[Tony Oday]

I believe in a "God" I talk to him regularly. I have faith in a higher being. I have NO faith in religion. Religion to me is a way to entertain the masses and keep them working a small life while I get rich. Its a form of control.

If you look at all the major religions there is a 'great flood' in them. This has been pointed to by scientists as cause to believe in human history there WAS a great flood.

I think that religion has bastarized faith and that is why millions EVERY year die in the name of such and such god. I think we all believe that we are all praying to the same God he just goes by different nicknames that humans have given him.

Faith and the afterlife I believe in religion I do not :)

[MJZiggy]

THAT's what I've been trying to put into words. I feel like there's a God, but somehow along the way, the people screwed it up.

[ranks66]

I saw a neat little bumper sticker the other day......

It read,

If you live your life like there is no God......You had better be right.

Think about it.

[Fosco33]

I believe in a "God" I talk to him regularly. I have faith in a higher being. I have NO faith in religion. Religion to me is a way to entertain the masses and keep them working a small life while I get rich. Its a form of control.

If you look at all the major religions there is a 'great flood' in them. This has been pointed to by scientists as cause to believe in human history there WAS a great flood.

I think that religion has bastarized faith and that is why millions EVERY year die in the name of such and such god. I think we all believe that we are all praying to the same God he just goes by different nicknames that humans have given him.

Faith and the afterlife I believe in religion I do not :)

Damn straight - and I've only come to that conclusion by the weird occurrences of the last week.

Previously, I thought it was all hogwash - having been brainwashed myself. Of course, being the arrogant bastard that I am, I rebelled.

It's gonna be a long journey for me to find that new path - but it won't be in a church/synagogue/temple or mosque.

[GrnBay007]

It's gonna be a long journey for me to find that new path - but it won't be in a church/synagogue/temple or mosque.

Don't depend on facts or the things you listed above. Start by looking deep inside yourself; your beliefs, passions, feelings and faith. I believe in God, was raised Catholic...although I don't agree with all the church has now become. That's all I'll say about religion. I've always felt religion/faith and politics are very personal and silly to debate. Just open your mind and heart to what's really inside.

Experiencing the death of a loved one can bring about some very powerful feelings. My Dad passed 4 months ago. Every now and then a thought or something (like your first post, reading with tears in my eyes) brings me right back that day. It's impossible to explain but the months and especially the week prior to his death was very spiritual to me. Spiritual might not be the right word but some of the occurances during that time let me know there really is a God. It may sound weird to some, but since then there have been a couple odd/unexplainable events that let me know he's still watching over me. I've heard of that type of thing happening and to be honest, rather than being spooked by it, it made me feel relieved/happy.

I think more than knowledge, books or conforming to a certain religion, life events help to define your beliefs....life events such as the birth of a child, death of a loved one, surviving a life threatening situation.

[Fosco33]

It's gonna be a long journey for me to find that new path - but it won't be in a church/synagogue/temple or mosque.

Don't depend on facts or the things you listed above. Start by looking deep inside yourself; your beliefs, passions, feelings and faith. I believe in God, was raised Catholic...although I don't agree with all the church has now become. That's all I'll say about religion. I've always felt religion/faith and politics are very personal and silly to debate. Just open your mind and heart to what's really inside.

Experiencing the death of a loved one can bring about some very powerful feelings. My Dad passed 4 months ago. Every now and then a thought or something (like your first post, reading with tears in my eyes) brings me right back that day. It's impossible to explain but the months and especially the week prior to his death was very spiritual to me. Spiritual might not be the right word but some of the occurances during that time let me know there really is a God. It may sound weird to some, but since then there have been a couple odd/unexplainable events that let me know he's still watching over me. I've heard of that type of thing happening and to be honest, rather than being spooked by it, it made me feel relieved/happy.

I think more than knowledge, books or conforming to a certain religion, life events help to define your beliefs....life events such as the birth of a child, death of a loved one, surviving a life threatening situation.

Thanks, GB - very wise words. My deepest sympathy for your loss.

I almost lost my Dad to cancer when I was 18. He confided in me that he didn't want to know what that last thought was gonna be - or what that first second after death would be like.

My friend Robert died one year ago to near this very minute - a week from his birthday and three weeks before his one year anniversary with his wife, Jordan.

Take care knowing that your Dad is still around, watching over you and will exist forever, here, in your memories.

[hurleyfan]

It's gonna be a long journey for me to find that new path - but it won't be in a church/synagogue/temple or mosque.

Don't depend on facts or the things you listed above. Start by looking deep inside yourself; your beliefs, passions, feelings and faith. I believe in God, was raised Catholic...although I don't agree with all the church has now become. That's all I'll say about religion. I've always felt religion/faith and politics are very personal and silly to debate. Just open your mind and heart to what's really inside.

Experiencing the death of a loved one can bring about some very powerful feelings. My Dad passed 4 months ago. Every now and then a thought or something (like your first post, reading with tears in my eyes) brings me right back that day. It's impossible to explain but the months and especially the week prior to his death was very spiritual to me. Spiritual might not be the right word but some of the occurances during that time let me know there really is a God. It may sound weird to some, but since then there have been a couple odd/unexplainable events that let me know he's still watching over me. I've heard of that type of thing happening and to be honest, rather than being spooked by it, it made me feel relieved/happy.

I think more than knowledge, books or conforming to a certain religion, life events help to define your beliefs....life events such as the birth of a child, death of a loved one, surviving a life threatening situation.

Very well said GB!

There are things that happen in his world that cannot be "explained" by anyone person, even though there are people who try to tell you what you should believe in.. You have to have the feeling in your deepest soul... of your true thoughts and beliefs... and what you TRULY believe to be true.

[Harlan Huckleby]

If there is a God, he doesn't care that much what I think. He/she/it certainly wouldn't be so small as to penalize me for not believing in him.

I try and be nice to people because it feels better than being an asshole, makes for a more pleasant world. But lets not get too serious about all this.

[the_idle_threat]

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f139/necrog/bkgod.jpg

[Deputy Nutz]

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f139/necrog/bkgod.jpg

Boy, I hate that fucker

[HarveyWallbangers]

Just something I noticed on this board and others. Generally, it seems the folks that don't believe in an organized religion are the ones who are quick to tell you about their beliefs. I find that amusing--since "religious folks" are often accused of pushing their beliefs on others (proselytizing). The only people that I know that truly proselytize are a few weirdos on college campuses and some Jehovah's Witnesses.

[Fosco33]

Just something I noticed on this board and others. Generally, it seems the folks that don't believe in an organized religion are the ones who are quick to tell you about their beliefs. I find that amusing--since "religious folks" are often accused of pushing their beliefs on others (proselytizing). The only people that I know that truly proselytize are a few weirdos on college campuses and some Jehovah's Witnesses.

Discussing beliefs <> Pushing your beliefs

[HarveyWallbangers]

A large majority (myself included) of "religious folks" don't push their beliefs, and it takes a lot to get them to discuss them. I'm betting I'm one of the silent majority--especially considering these poll results.

[woodbuck27]

The Atheist - reason of sence and sensability.

Somewhere in the world a man has abducted a little girl. Soon he will rape, torture, and kill her. If an atrocity of this kind isn't occurring at precisely this moment, it will happen in a few hours, or days at most. Such is the confidence we can draw " from the statistical laws " that govern the lives of six billion human beings.

The same statistics also suggest that this girl’s parents believe -- at this very moment -- that an all-powerful and all-loving God is watching over them and their family. Are they right to believe this? Is it good that they believe this?

No.

That is the respose of the atheist.

The entirety of atheism is contained in this response. Atheism is not a philosophy; it is not even a view of the world; it is simply a refusal to deny the obvious.

Unfortunately, we live in a world in which the obvious is overlooked as a matter of principle. The obvious must be observed and re-observed and argued for. This is a thankless job. It carries with it an aura of petulance and insensitivity. It is, moreover, a job that the atheist doesn't want.

It is worth noting that no one ever need identify himself as a non-astrologer or a non-alchemist. Consequently, we do not have words for people who deny the validity of these pseudo-disciplines.

Likewise, “atheism” is a term that should not even exist.

It's nothing more - than the noises reasonable people make, when in the presence of religious dogma.

The atheist is merely a person who believes that the 260 million Americans (eighty-seven percent of the population) who claim to “never doubt the existence of God”. . . .

should be obliged to present evidence for his existence -- and, indeed, for his benevolence, given the relentless destruction of innocent human beings we witness in the world each day.

Only the atheist appreciates just how uncanny our situation is:

most of us believe in a God that is every bit as specious as the gods of Mount Olympus; no person, whatever his or her qualifications, can seek public office in the United States without pretending to be certain that such a God exists; and much of what passes for public policy in the US of A, conforms to religious taboos and superstitions appropriate to a medieval theocracy. Our circumstance is abject, indefensible, and terrifying. It would be hilarious if the stakes were not so high.

Consider the city of New Orleans which was recently destroyed by hurricane Katrina. At least a thousand people died, tens of thousands lost all their earthly possessions, and over a million have been displaced. It's safe to say that almost every person living in New Orleans at the moment Katrina struck believed in an omnipotent, omniscient, and compassionate God.

What was God doing while a hurricane laid waste to their city?

Surely He heard the prayers of those elderly men and women who fled the rising waters for the safety of their attics, only to be slowly drowned there. These were people of faith. These were good men and women who had prayed throughout their lives. Only the atheist has the courage to admit the obvious: these poor people spent their lives in the company of an imaginary friend.

Of course, there had been ample warning that a storm “of biblical proportions” would strike New Orleans, and the human response to the ensuing disaster was tragically inept.

It was inept, only by the light of science. Advance warning of Katrina’s path was wrested from mute Nature by meteorological calculations and satellite imagery.

God told no one of his plans.

Had the residents of New Orleans been content to rely on the beneficence of the Lord, they wouldn’t have known that a killer hurricane was bearing down upon them until they felt the first gusts of wind on their faces.

Yet, a poll conducted by The Washington Post found that eighty percent of Katrina’s survivors claim that the event has only strengthened their faith in God.

As hurricane Katrina was devouring New Orleans, on another shore,nearly a thousand Shiite pilgrims were trampled to death on a bridge in Iraq. There can be no doubt that these pilgrims believed mightily in the God of the Koran. Indeed, their lives were organized around the indisputable fact of his existence:

their women walked veiled before him; their men regularly murdered one another over rival interpretations of his word. It would be remarkable if a single survivor of this tragedy lost his faith. More likely, the survivors imagine that they were spared through God’s grace.

Only the atheist recognizes the boundless narcissism and self-deceit of the saved. Only the atheist realizes how morally objectionable it is for survivors of a catastrophe to believe themselves spared by a loving God, while this same God drowned infants in their cribs. Because he refuses to cloak the reality of the world’s suffering in a cloying fantasy of eternal life, the atheist feels in his bones just how precious life is -- and, indeed, how unfortunate it is that millions of human beings suffer the most harrowing abridgements of their happiness, for no good reason at all.

Of course, people of faith regularly assure one another that God is not responsible for human suffering. But how else can we understand the claim that God is both omniscient and omnipotent?

There is no other way, and it is time for sane human beings to own up to this. This is the age-old problem of theodicy, of course, and we should consider it solved.

If God exists, either He can do nothing to stop the most egregious calamities, or He does not care to. God, therefore, is either impotent or evil.

Pious readers will now execute the following pirouette: God cannot be judged by merely human standards of morality. But, of course, human standards of morality are precisely what the faithful use to establish God’s goodness in the first place. And any God who could concern himself with something as trivial as gay marriage, or the name by which he is addressed in prayer, is not as inscrutable as all that. If He exists, the God of Abraham is not merely unworthy of the immensity of creation; he is unworthy even of man.

There is another possibility, of course, and it is both the most reasonable and least odious: the biblical God is a fiction. As Richard Dawkins has observed, we are all atheists with respect to Zeus and Thor. Only the atheist has realized that the biblical god is no different. Consequently, only the atheist is compassionate enough to take the profundity of the world’s suffering at face value. It is terrible that we all die and lose everything we love; it is doubly terrible that so many human beings suffer needlessly while alive.

That so much of this suffering can be directly attributed to religion -- to religious hatreds, religious wars, religious delusions, and religious diversions of scarce resources -- is what makes atheism a moral and intellectual necessity. It is a necessity, however, that places the atheist at the margins of society. The atheist, by merely being in touch with reality, appears shamefully out of touch with the fantasy life of his neighbors.

[Fosco33]

A large majority (myself included) of "religious folks" don't push their beliefs, and it takes a lot to get them to discuss them. I'm betting I'm one of the silent majority--especially considering these poll results.

Understood. I won't discuss this anymore - just interested to see what other people are thinking as I'm questioning my own faith (hence the title of the thread and the main purpose clearly stated early therein).

[HarveyWallbangers]

You can discuss all you want. I was just making an observation.

[the_idle_threat]

http://d3sp.c58.ru/thumbs/I_see_you.jpg

[woodbuck27]

I am directing this to Fosco33 - for the courage and strength in the man. I could PM him but this is a Forum and we are all Adults here, or at least most of us are of the age of consent. If you can't deal with this examine yourself.

Fosco33. Your question is not one of religion but of the existence of a Higher POWER. A presence for you to reach out too - to gain the strength you need in any condition of need, as a result of loss or repair ie Robert - but also to sustain you in strength on a daily basis.

If one was to google the words Higher Power. Then you will discover several references to that - in connection to any number of Addiction Support Programs and their central tool -The 12 Step Program.

I was raised in a strong Christian Home, that was focused on LOVE through the direction and eyes of the Higher Power, Christians/ Jews refer to as God or YHWH (Yaweh) etc.

I am today at BEST, and in concert with other Christians - Ecumenical in my practise of worship of my Higher Power. I am also as an individual given to believe that my relationship with my Higher Power - is just mine.

It's personal, but I'm open to discuss /talk about what works for me, to possibly assist others to strengthen their spiritual lives. To decide in the direction that may work for them, to establish a well strength, especially at those times of more personal need, or when Life tests us.

Fosco33.You are only 26 years of age and young man I commend you. I like you,and many others in this Forum, have lost close friends to death at a similiar age as Robert was. When you rallied to support Roberts Family and Widow , the strength of some Spirit must have welled up inside of you. To support your needs - to add whatever solice you had to give to friends in need after a loss.

You demonstrated the strengh of LOVE that was all you needed for them. You passed a test Fosco33 and I believe, you even surprised your young self. Congratulations.

You had decided some time ago that a practise of atheism was the way. That was your choice and right as well.

Yet, when Robert died. Suddenly, life summoned more from what is inside of you, then it normally did and you got there. That is the proof that a relationship with your choice of Higher Power is - ONLY YOUR's.

Discussions on Religion per say are flat out the work of the Dark Side. People get all hurt and indignant and simply miss the central theme and commandment handed to us in Christianity - To - LOVE ONE ANOTHER.

The greatest hypocrits, are people wrapped in the false clock of some form or other of Religious Dogma. The central theme of their Religious persuasion is FEAR based. My inspection and trust in my Higher Power forces me to deny their ways. To simply put. Shake my head and move away from them with prudence and haste.

Fosco33, I believe, that as an adult. It is incumbant on us, to examine OUR Spiritual strength, solely in ourselves, and of course with decent input from other's, that is in no manner threatening.

The journey never left you Fosco33. You took a detour of your choice, of your mind, and Life led you back to itself.

What are your needs to sustain your future? That is your quest. That is your focus, Fosco33.

[Pack0514]

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f139/necrog/bkgod.jpg

Boy, I hate that fucker

Yeah, but the guy is a hell of a football player. Have you seen some of the catches he's made?

[Deputy Nutz]

http://www.gimpcity.com/how/nigga.jpg

[woodbuck27]

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f139/necrog/bkgod.jpg

Boy, I hate that fucker

Nutz?? To whom are you referring if I may ask?

I don't recognize the fella with the crown on. It looks like a wax figure.

[HarveyWallbangers]

The King, Woody. From the Burger King commercials.

[woodbuck27]

The King, Woody. From the Burger King commercials.

Nutz hates him?

hahahahahahah . . . way over the top too funny !!!

Guessing that Nutz is . . . a McDonalds Man? HaHaHaHa !!

[Deputy Nutz]

He scares me

[woodbuck27]

He scares me

Nutz. . . ??? You have no reason of FEAR - less understanding.

[jack's smirking revenge]

I believe in a "God" I talk to him regularly. I have faith in a higher being. I have NO faith in religion. Religion to me is a way to entertain the masses and keep them working a small life while I get rich. Its a form of control.

If you look at all the major religions there is a 'great flood' in them. This has been pointed to by scientists as cause to believe in human history there WAS a great flood.

I think that religion has bastarized faith and that is why millions EVERY year die in the name of such and such god. I think we all believe that we are all praying to the same God he just goes by different nicknames that humans have given him.

Faith and the afterlife I believe in religion I do not :)

You said what I was just going to. I am agnostic.

ag·nosti·cal·ly adv.
Word History: An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist. The term agnostic was fittingly coined by the 19th-century British scientist Thomas H. Huxley, who believed that only material phenomena were objects of exact knowledge. He made up the word from the prefix a-, meaning “without, not,” as in amoral, and the noun Gnostic. Gnostic is related to the Greek word gnsis, “knowledge,” which was used by early Christian writers to mean “higher, esoteric knowledge of spiritual things” hence, Gnostic referred to those with such knowledge. In coining the term agnostic, Huxley was considering as “Gnostics” a group of his fellow intellectuals“ists,” as he called themwho had eagerly embraced various doctrines or theories that explained the world to their satisfaction. Because he was a “man without a rag of a label to cover himself with,” Huxley coined the term agnostic for himself, its first published use being in 1870.

I do not believe in sons of god, avatars of a higher power...whatever you want to call those who are supposed offspring of a creator.

I don't deny that there had to be a "point A" to our existence, but organized religion is more about politics and money than it is about truth and spirituality. The Bible itself is a politically-assembled collection of stories about a man who may or may not have been who and what he is thought to be now. It was assembled over centuries through a less than democratic process, with gospels and truth purposely ommitted through the judgment of the Church. It is not all-truth to all people and allows for a massive fragmentation among the masses, leading to violent and barbaric treatment of human beings.

That aside, human civilization has existed for thousands of years. Organized religion (monotheism) forced the distrust and abandonment of polytheism, which allowed for spiritual and creative tolerance, cultural differences and variety.

Just my opinion. The answers are different for everybody, regardless of religious affiliation.

To me, the bottom line is this: either everyone is correct with their answer to the question of faith, or there is only one answer and everyone else is wrong? If an avatar does exist and there is only one correct answer, then God is evil.

Which leads into a greater existential discussion, more appropriate for C-E than the Packer Rats forum....

tyler

[CyclonePackFan]

He scares me

Nutz:

http://bedsidesurprise.ytmnd.com/

:mrgreen:

[woodbuck27]

He scares me

Nutz:

http://bedsidesurprise.ytmnd.com/

:mrgreen:

The Horror - the Horror - Oh ! The Horror of it !

[Jimx29]

Charting the unchurched in America



State by State breakdown of religious backgrounds (http://www.usatoday.com/graphics/news/gra/gnoreligion/flash.htm)





From USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/life/2002/2002-03-07-no-religion.htm)

[the_idle_threat]

http://www.cannedrevolution.com/littleredemail/05/08/hand-of-god.jpg

Higher Power?

[the_idle_threat]

http://www.gimpcity.com/how/nigga.jpg

I laugh out loud --- literally --- every time I see this pic.

[Harlan Huckleby]

http://www.cannedrevolution.com/littleredemail/05/08/hand-of-god.jpg

Higher Power?

I'm not sure people know how bizarre the Rastafarian religion in Jamaica is. It started back around 1930 when the emperor of Ethiopia, Haile Selalsi, was paying a visit to the island. He was driving along in his motorcade, waiving to the jamaican people, and somebody reported seeing some miracle, an apparition, like a halo formed around his car or something. Rumor spread that a prophet from God was on the Island.

I think Haile Selalsi's was given religious name of "Rastafari."

So a new religion was formed around a mix of African religions, smoking weed, some Judaism. And Haile Selasi was the new prophet at the center. It was suggested he was descended from Hebrew Kings. This is real "Life of Brian" type stuff.

[Fosco33]

Charting the unchurched in America



State by State breakdown of religious backgrounds (http://www.usatoday.com/graphics/news/gra/gnoreligion/flash.htm)





From USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/life/2002/2002-03-07-no-religion.htm)

That's very interesting. I've travelled a lot more than most people my age and find the general breakdown of non-believers as follows (and no surprise):

West Coast/Upper NW - 20-25%
Midwest, Plain States, Mid Atlantic, Florida, Most of Upper NE Coast - 15%
Deep South - 7%

I also found the relgious choice interesting - to see where various religions congregate. Much like language, religous beliefs can be tracked in an anthropological type study (example - we say bubbler in Milwaukee only - everywhere else in the world its water fountain). I'm gonna read more about this phenomenom but here's my early guess:

- Most blacks are religious and tend to be a higher % of the population in the South where they've lived through slavery and the effects of post slavery (thus needing community support, etc).

- Jews congregated in NY (upper NE coast) and CA (LA specifically) for various reasons; much like 7th Day Adventists when they came from countries like the Phillipines (to be w/ people like yourself, etc.) and of course our Morman friends in Utah

- The progressive nature of the West Coast has led people to non-belief despite a high percentage of illegal immigrants (very high % of belief) - beginning w/ gold rush entreprenuers and risk takers

- Elsewhere (Midwest, Plain States qnd the Upper NE coast) have arguably the best education in the country (by stats) and possibly the world. The puritan foundation of this country has led to a long held family style tradition of religious beliefs (you believe what your parents tell you is correct).

- An anomoly of belief percentage is N Dakota (93%) vs their neighors (Montana 80%, S Dakota and remaining boarder/regional states are 85%).

Anyone else have a theory???

EDIT for clarity...

[woodbuck27]

http://www.cannedrevolution.com/littleredemail/05/08/hand-of-god.jpg

Higher Power?

I'm not sure people know how bizarre the Rastafarian religion in Jamaica is. It started back around 1930 when the emperor of Ethiopia, Haile Selalsi, was paying a visit to the island. He was driving along in his motorcade, waiving to the jamaican people, and somebody reported seeing some miracle, an apparition, like a halo formed around his car or something. Rumor spread that a prophet from God was on the Island.

I think Haile Selalsi's was given religious name of "Rastafari."

So a new religion was formed around a mix of African religions, smoking weed, some Judaism. And Haile Selasi was the new prophet at the center. It was suggested he was descended from Hebrew Kings. This is real "Life of Brian" type stuff.


Here it is:

When, in 1930, Ras Tafari Makonnen, great-grandson of King Saheka Selassie of Shoa, was made Emperor of Ethiopia and proclaimed Negusa Negast (King of Kings), Jamaica's slum-dwellers and rural poor, for whom Garvey had been something of a gallant oracle, regarded this event as the fulfillment of a prophecy of deliverance. Indeed, Ethiopia had symbolized all of Africa for the slave-descended Jamaicans since as far back as 1784, when American Baptist minister George Liele founded the Ethiopian Baptist Church on the island. These "Garveyites" were awed by newspaper and newsreel accounts of the pomp of Selassie's coronation in Addis Ababa and took note of the sybolism in the choice of his formal title, Haile Selassie being an honorific meaning "Power of the Holy Trinity." Selassie, they knew, claimed to be directly descended from King Solomon, so they reasoned that he must be the long-awaited savior of the planet's far-flung African peoples.

In Africa, Selassie was hailed as the greatest of modern monarchs and a symbol of the continent's vast potential. In the United States, residents of Harlem jammed movie houses to watch the newsreel footage of his coronation. And in the Caribbean, as elsewhere in the West, the advent of Selassie's reign was taken as shining proof for all downtrodden people of color that, as the back-to-Africa Garveyites and the firebrands of the syncretistic Rastafarian cult had foretold, the day of Deliverance was at hand.

To the Garveyites, Haile Selassie I was a hero without peer. To the Rastafarians he was the Living God of Abraham and Isaac, He Whose Name Should Not Be Spoken.

In Jamaica, as elsewhere in the world, the 1930s were years of social upheaval. Labour unrest on the island culminated in the vicious suppression of striking sugar-cane workers in Westmoreland: four strikers were shot dead, and dozens rounded up and jailed, including Alexander Bustamente, the leader of the new Jamaican labour movement.

It was a perfect context for the rise of a band of islanders who divorced themselves mentally from an oppressive social system. This cult, Rastafarianism, thus became cast as a religion of the dispossessed among those who failed to acknowledge the intellectual rigor of many practitioners (the depth of Biblical and historical knowledge displayed at a Rastafarian reasoning is intense).

In the hills of eastern Jamaica, Rastafarian encampments sprang up; a life of asceticism and artistry became the armour of the religion's followers against Babylon. Leonard Howell, one of the island's chief propagators of the religion, founded the Pinnacle encampment in an abandoned estate between Kingston and Spanish Town. Howell eventually decided that it was not Haile Selassie who was Jah but himself. In 1954 he was thrown into a mental home, and Pinnacle was closed down.

The dreads, as Rastafarians became known colloquially, spilled out into the ghettoes of west Kingston. Around the time of independence in 1962, there were a number of violent incidents involving fire-arms between Rastas and the police, making headlines in the Daily Gleaner. The movement was now traveling with the speed of a bush-fire into the popular psyche of Jamaica.

On 21 April 1966, an event of extraordinary significance was to occur for all followers of Rastafari.

His Imperial Majesty Haile Selassie I, Emperor of Ethiopia, was due to arrive at Kingston airport. Away in Delaware at the time, Bob Marley had written to his wife Rita: 'If possible, go and see for yourself.'

http://www.bobmarley.com/life/rastafari/salute.jpeg

From her vantage point on Winward Road, which leads in from Palisadoes airport, Rita Marley had what was perhaps the most profound of many remarkable, God-given experiences she would enjoy in her life.

http://www.bobmarley.com/life/rastafari/rita.jpeg

Seated in Governor-General Clifford Campbell's purring official limousine, Haile Selassie was driven into Kingston. Rita eased her way to the front of the crowd on this section of the Winward Road and stood in the warm, light rain, waiting for the car to come nearer. Rita was anxious. She had made a secret pact: if, somehow, she saw the sign she was looking for, she would accept the divine status of Haile Selassie.

As the Daimler limousine drew parallel with her, Rita's thoughts were not positive. "How is it they are saying that this man is so great," she wondered, "when he looks so short, with his army hat over his head in such a way I can't even see his eyes."

"Then I said to myself, 'What am I even thinking about? Jesus is a spirit.'" At that exact moment Haile Selassie raised his face: he looked directly into Rita's eyes and waved. "And I looked into his hand and there was the nail-print. It was a mark, and I could only identify that mark with the scriptures of history, saying, 'When you see him, you will know him by the nail-print in his hands.'"

"So when I saw this, I said to myself that this could be true, this could be the man of whom it was said: 'before the year 2,000 Christ will be a man walking on this earth.'"

[HarveyWallbangers]

- Elsewhere (Midwest, Plain States (less N Dakota)) and the Upper NE coast have arguably the best education in the country (by stats) and possibly the world.

What do you mean "less North Dakota?" North Dakota ranks very high in education. There are many ways to measure, but they rank high in most key categories--like high school graduation rates (1st), test scores (1st in SAT test scores, generally top 5-10 in ACT test scores), percentage of college graduates, high school graduates with college acceptances (1st), etc. There's no way to absolutely rank states on education (various reports differ, depending on the criteria), but it's clear that North Dakota ranks near the top in education.

Much of what you wrote is true, but you lose credibility with a statement like that.

The only thing they rank poorly in is the amount they spend/student (like many rural states), and that's about the most assinine criteria to go off. Just look at the difference in teacher's salaries and cost of living (e.g. it takes a lot less to build and maintain school infrastructure), and that will explain away most of those differences.

[the_idle_threat]

Alrighty then.

[woodbuck27]

Rastafarian Beliefs, Practises and Sarements

Rastafarians acknowledge that their religion is the blending of the purest forms of both Judaism and Christianity; they also accept the Egyptian origins of both these religions.

In affirming the divinity of Haile Selassie, Rastafari rejects the Babylonian hypocrisy of the modern church. The church of Rome, and even the council of Rome, are considered to be particularly Babylonian: was it not from this city that Mussolini invaded the holy land of Ethiopia in 1935? Religions always reflect the social and geographical environment out of which they emerge, and Jamaican Rastafari is no exception: for example, the use of marijuana as a sacrament and aid to meditation is logical in a country where a particularly potent strain of 'herb' grows freely.

Marijuana: The Weed of Wisdom

http://www.bobmarley.com/buddyicons/spliffbuddy.gif

In fact, the herb "ganja" (marijuana) was regarded as "wisdomweed," and Rasta leaders urged that it be smoked as a religious rite, alleging that it was found growing on the grave of King Solomon and citing biblical passages, such as Psalms 104:14, to attest to its sacramental properties:

"He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man, that he may bring forth food out of the earth."

[HarveyWallbangers]

Alrighty then.

Have to set the record straight. If I came on and said Wisconsin's education system was poor, I'm sure there would be a boatload of folks setting the record straight. We're damn proud of our educational standing in North Dakota--just like folks from Wisconsin and the other Upper Midwestern states are.

[woodbuck27]

Alrighty then.

Have to set the record straight. If I came on and said Wisconsin's education system was poor, I'm sure there would be a boatload of folks setting the record straight. We're damn proud of our educational standing in North Dakota--just like folks from Wisconsin and the other Upper Midwestern states are.

That's not all you should be proud of Harvey:

http://northdakota.missusa.com/images/webautograph%20pix.jpg

[HarveyWallbangers]

Funny, Woody!

My wife was Miss Northern Lights, I believe.
:D

[the_idle_threat]

Alrighty then.

Have to set the record straight. If I came on and said Wisconsin's education system was poor, I'm sure there would be a boatload of folks setting the record straight. We're damn proud of our educational standing in North Dakota--just like folks from Wisconsin and the other Upper Midwestern states are.

This is true. From the sound of it, ND has plenty to be proud of in its education system.

[woodbuck27]

Funny, Woody!

My wife was Miss Northern Lights, I believe.
:D

Northern Lights. Yaaaa . . . that's the joint.

http://server2.uploadit.org/files/thelance-thereturncopyweb.jpg

[woodbuck27]

Is There A Higher Power?

If your answer to this question is no, then this article is for you, and there are three questions for you to consider. I do not aim to make you believe in any particular God, so for the purpose of this article, God refers to a higher power that at this point we need not put an identity to.

These are just questions to start you thinking a little more into the topic, and attempt to use rational logic to reason the possibility of God’s existence to the atheist, which you are, by the way, if you answered no to the title question.

1. Do you believe that the blue whale exists?

If your answer to this question is yes, then consider why you believe that. Did you ever come close to a blue whale, and seen it live, touched it and felt it, or sailed by it? For the average person, the likely answer is no. Yet we vaguely know it as some kind of fact. That is probably because we have seen the blue whale on TV, perhaps on National Geographic or some other documentary, read about it in a book or encyclopedia, or found pictures and descriptions of it off the internet, even though the blue whale is an exceedingly rare mammal.

All these are third-party accounts, since you never saw it face to face, yet you believe them. Somehow, you trusted the credibility of those sources or resources. You took by faith that someone has seen it, encountered it, and believed their documentation of it, be it in whatever form. In that case, why not believe the bible, which is a compiled account of many authors who have experienced God? Why not believe your friends, who have encountered God in their own unique and special way? If I challenged you to prove that the blue whale exists, you would take me to personally see one; similarly, your Christian friends would try to invite you to church or other gatherings so that you can see for yourself. Why not give it a try?

If your answer to this question is no, then you at least should admit you do not know all there is to know, and hence, perhaps, consider the possibility of the existence of a higher power. Or read up a little more.

2. Do you believe that dinosaurs exist?

If your answer to this question is yes, then consider why you believe that. Similarly, have you ever seen a living one in existence? Hollywood theme parks do not count, by the way. Yet we also accept it as some kind of fact. It is odd, considering that none of the people living today could have ever seen it live those millions of years ago. In fact, we cannot even be absolutely sure how many years ago they roamed the earth.

This time round, you took by faith that archaeologists and scientists had properly put together the fossil evidence and constructed correct models of what the dinosaurs looked like back then, even though no one could possibly know exactly. It is at best an educated guess, supported by technology. It is all circumstantial evidence that can only be explained by the possibility of dinosaurs. Likewise, looking at the many religions that have been around for centuries or longer, they are all circumstantial evidence that something must have transpired to inspire them. We do have some archaeological evidence anyway, for instance, the discovery of the dead sea scrolls validate some books of the bible. With that many people believing in some higher power, surely the possibility of the existence of a God cannot be that minute?

If your answer to this question is no, then you need to come up with some viable explanation for the extraordinarily large and different fossils that had been discovered all these years that do not match any species of animals in existence today. Good luck.

3. Do you believe that aliens exist?

If your answer to this question is yes, why do you believe something that has no empirical evidence, especially since many of the photographs that were claimed to be of UFOs were proven to be hoaxes? Isn’t it a great leap of faith to believe something like this? If you had based your belief on things such as crop circles, how the Egyptians could have built the pyramids with their primitive technology, and similar ideas, these are merely interpretations of circumstantial evidence. If you can believe that something extraterrestrial exists, why not a higher power? If you can believe that a crop circle must be left behind by something extraterrestrial, why not consider that life itself, being vastly more complicated, similarly must have had intelligent and deliberate design?

If your answer to this question is no, why not?

Although extraterrestrials have yet to be discovered, it is altogether possible that they exist, whether it is probable or not. Humans have such limited knowledge of the universe, as well as technology. Since the universe is technically limitless, or at least, vastly huge, why can’t there be the possible existence of aliens in some remote part of the galaxy? How much of the universe have we humans combed? Similarly, just because we haven’t seen a tangible existence of a higher power here on earth does not exclude the possibility of the higher power being located elsewhere. Even with advanced technology, there are still things that cannot be tracked by what is tangible or visible. All the superstitions about ghosts and spirits must have some cause somewhere, and just because science cannot prove or capture it yet does not imply that the spiritual dimension cannot possibly exist either.

Is it not easier to accept the mere possibility of the existence of a higher power, because someone somewhere claims to have some experience of it, rather than insist on the non-existence of a higher power, which cannot be proven without searching the entire universe, assuming we can cover only the known three dimensions?

[Fosco33]

- Elsewhere (Midwest, Plain States (less N Dakota)) and the Upper NE coast have arguably the best education in the country (by stats) and possibly the world.

What do you mean "less North Dakota?" North Dakota ranks very high in education. There are many ways to measure, but they rank high in most key categories--like high school graduation rates (1st), test scores (1st in SAT test scores, generally top 5-10 in ACT test scores), percentage of college graduates, high school graduates with college acceptances (1st), etc. There's no way to absolutely rank states on education (various reports differ, depending on the criteria), but it's clear that North Dakota ranks near the top in education.

Much of what you wrote is true, but you lose credibility with a statement like that.

The only thing they rank poorly in is the amount they spend/student (like many rural states), and that's about the most assinine criteria to go off. Just look at the difference in teacher's salaries and cost of living (e.g. it takes a lot less to build and maintain school infrastructure), and that will explain away most of those differences.

I didn't mean that, Harv. Quick typing, I guess. What I meant to say is that N Dakota has the highest belief in a higher power (93%) and thus an anomaly amongst it's neighboring states and others listed (~85%). Honestly, I have no knowledge of ND's education system. No disrespect meant. :oops:

What I was getting at was trying to determine was this anomoly exists... any ideas?

[HarveyWallbangers]

I didn't mean that, Harv. Quick typing, I guess. What I meant to say is that N Dakota has the highest belief in a higher power (93%) and thus an anomaly amongst it's neighboring states and others listed (~85%). Honestly, I have no knowledge of ND's education system. No disrespect meant. :oops:

What I was getting at was trying to determine was this anomoly exists... any ideas?

Apology accepted.
:D

I thought most of your other points were valid.

[Harlan Huckleby]

In fact, the herb "ganja" (marijuana) was regarded as "wisdomweed," and Rasta leaders urged that it be smoked as a religious rite, alleging that it was found growing on the grave of King Solomon

This is rich. Maybe some magic mushrooms are growing on King Solomon's grave, too!

Actually, Rastafarians are no more ridiculous than other religions, so I should not pick on them.

[woodbuck27]

In fact, the herb "ganja" (marijuana) was regarded as "wisdomweed," and Rasta leaders urged that it be smoked as a religious rite, alleging that it was found growing on the grave of King Solomon

This is rich. Maybe some magic mushrooms are growing on King Solomon's grave, too!

Actually, Rastafarians are no more ridiculous than other religions, so I should not pick on them.

I spent two weeks in Barbados in May 1985 and had the unique opportunity to meet several Rasta men Harlan - really Beach Boys and they are very cool people.

I spent some quality time, getting acquainted with their ways and found them to be very soulful and also very high at times.

They believe - even the beach sand lives.

BIG Ganga Maan ! Ohhh . . my Gaud Shit. :mrgreen:

[justanotherpackfan]

I'm going to jump into this subject even though I hate these threads as they scare the crap out of me. First off, I'm 14, 15 in a few days. One thing that disturbed me was I think someone on page 1 said he's baptized so he's fine. Not true. You need to accept Christ into your life.

In my short life I've grown more in faith. The main reason is thanks to a few friends who grow up in a strict Christian lifestyle. They have influenced me greatly. I've been around these people. They believe in Jesus.... and their life is better because of it. You may even see my friend playing college football some day. The fact is since I've grown in faith my life has gotten better. Truth is most of you don't want to believe and are scared to death. FAITH, FAITH, FAITH.......... Faith is believing something you cannot be sure of.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Well, as a fellow believer, I'm proud of you. Others will be scared crapless by such a fundamental Christian.
:D

Keep the faith, and don't let anybody belittle your beliefs.

[MJZiggy]

Harv, I think this youngin' may be ready for a trip over to CE. I bet he'd be loved over there. Christian-Encourager.com is a stop some of us made on our journey here.

I was thinking about this thread the other day. There is a phenomenon that has been studied that religious people heal faster (Brady Poppinga, Reggie White anyone?) The odd part about this phenomenon is it applies globally regardless of the religion of the patient. I don't know how it applies, but there it is.

justanother, you should know that Nutz is not always speaking seriously unless he's talking about defensive schemes or the offensive line. Then he's dead serious.

[woodbuck27]

I'm going to jump into this subject even though I hate these threads as they scare the crap out of me. First off, I'm 14, 15 in a few days. One thing that disturbed me was I think someone on page 1 said he's baptized so he's fine. Not true. You need to accept Christ into your life.

In my short life I've grown more in faith. The main reason is thanks to a few friends who grow up in a strict Christian lifestyle. They have influenced me greatly. I've been around these people. They believe in Jesus.... and their life is better because of it. You may even see my friend playing college football some day. The fact is since I've grown in faith my life has gotten better. Truth is most of you don't want to believe and are scared to death. FAITH, FAITH, FAITH.......... Faith is believing something you cannot be sure of.


Congratulations young MAN. Fear not in YOUR FAITH. :mrgreen:

May you be bless'd "in your strength", prudence and faith all your LIFE. That FAITH is more than the cornerstone of how to deal with LIFE's challenges. It's YOUR solid foundation. ALWAYS - YOUR FAITH.

I'll pass this inner part of me onto you people - the basis of who I am and I only ask that you consider what I am going to disclose. Am I afraid of those of you who will read this and spurn me. NO !

Some more about woodbuck27:

Thanks to my blessed parents and theirs. . .

I went to Sunday School from 4-19 years of age, and attended every Church function I could from Junior and Senior Church Choirs, Mission Band (that teaches a Christian, love of his fellow man), Cubs and Scouts and later High - C ,as a teen on Sat. and Sunday nights.

All that, is the foundation of what is best in me. Yet, I am humble to myself. I am far from perfect and often challenged by that imperfection. How I react to life is only in me. Action - consequence and through my Christian Spirit patience and renewal. Many will laugh, sneer and scoff at that. Have at it as you may. I have FAITH in my strength and my path.

I trust that every person has something to teach me. As a Christian, I'm challenged to open my mind,heart and feed my soul - from a standpoint of respect for all people. Is my LIFE easy as a Christian - NO !

I do have faith daily, and in that realize that it's easier to cope with so many LIFE struggles.

I realize that as a Christian I am hated/despised by some, yet I must return no harm. As a Christian I am challenged not to hate the WAR between Isreal and Lebanon ,that challenges us today to take a stance. I must not despise politics gone bad in my Country and World wide. Not hate the greed of men, and the rebellion of those less worthy financially, on the innocent, especially the elderly. I must not hate the young men in Africa that could give a DAM who they infect with the HIV Virus - thus a morality issue, is the basis of the fact, that over 1 million people are Aids victims just in Zambia alone.

As a Christian today, I believe OUR challenges are overwhelming at times, but for FAITH.

All that is what I fall on - to make me a better human being, when I make mistakes and slip and fall, when life takes me to task, or when I'm in any way confused /troubled by daily life events and inter-reactions. My FAITH.

My Christianity is my foundation of strength. For that I am extremely grateful.

IF NOT FOR MY FAITH !?? :mrgreen:

[HarveyWallbangers]

Great stuff, Woody!

[woodbuck27]

Great stuff, Woody!

In FAITH, Harvey.

Thank You - my Christian Friend.

[jack's smirking revenge]

I believe in the power to get high.

:mrgreen:

tyler

[4and12to12and4]

I replied that I do believe, but wonder sometimes. The fact that we question it makes me believe it. We seem to always be searching. That, to me, is evidence of something missing.

I grew up in a conservative Baptist home. It didn't take long for me to get out of that institution once I became a man.

Here's what my biggest problem always was:

If God is omniscient, he knows the future, and that's what they preach, then He would have known that Adam would sin and Billion would eventually die and be burned and tortured forever for not "accepting Christ as Savior". This is what I told my Pastor. If you knew the future, before you had kids, and you saw that just one of them would be raped, tortured and killed, but the others would live successful happy lives, would you still procreate, knowing that one child's fate? I wouldn't! Because, for the rest of my life, I would know that "I" was the cause of that child's pain and suffering, because I still chose to bring said child into the world. This is my problem with organized religions idea of ETERNAL punishment. It has never made sense to me. I believe there is an order and design, otherwise, why the hell are we even here, but I don't believe any organized religion knows what their talking about. Most of them have changed their rules as time goes by anyways, which is a joke in itself. OK, I'm done. Hope I didn't offend anyone.

[Murphy37]

Well I'm a believer. To my knowledge, the existance of a God has never been scientifically proven as of late. However the the power of prayer has been proven. Studies have been done in hospitals on patients with identical illnesses. One patient has people praying for them, the other does not. Go ahead and guess which patient recovers on the most consistant basis.

[justanotherpackfan]

Have any of you seen that story about gemstones falling from the sky? I would give the link but I forgot what the site is called. I will ask my friend and post it later.

[MJZiggy]

Well I'm a believer. To my knowledge, the existance of a God has never been scientifically proven as of late. However the the power of prayer has been proven. Studies have been done in hospitals on patients with identical illnesses. One patient has people praying for them, the other does not. Go ahead and guess which patient recovers on the most consistant basis. That's what I was talking about before. The thing that I wonder about, though is they did this research, and it didn't matter who the patient prayed to or what religion said pationt was, the result was the same. Makes me wonder...

[woodbuck27]

Well I'm a believer. To my knowledge, the existance of a God has never been scientifically proven as of late. However the the power of prayer has been proven. Studies have been done in hospitals on patients with identical illnesses. One patient has people praying for them, the other does not. Go ahead and guess which patient recovers on the most consistant basis. That's what I was talking about before. The thing that I wonder about, though is they did this research, and it didn't matter who the patient prayed to or what religion said pationt was, the result was the same. Makes me wonder...

MJ:

I turn your attention to the question:

Of a Higher Power and what we as individuals believe regarding the existence of such? :mrgreen:

Isn't it wonderful that as members of a Forum we can examine so many useful issues/topics. To learn as a group of people, as long as we remain open minded?

[justanotherpackfan]

Here's the gemstone thing, check it out. http://www.extremeprophetic.com/videoplay.php?id=http://www.propheticmedia.com/video/video_extrememoments/EMGemstoneWebcastLOW.wmv

[Fosco33]

Well I'm a believer. To my knowledge, the existance of a God has never been scientifically proven as of late. However the the power of prayer has been proven. Studies have been done in hospitals on patients with identical illnesses. One patient has people praying for them, the other does not. Go ahead and guess which patient recovers on the most consistant basis. That's what I was talking about before. The thing that I wonder about, though is they did this research, and it didn't matter who the patient prayed to or what religion said pationt was, the result was the same. Makes me wonder...

Not that it matters or should change anyone's belief - but the study you referenced came out earlier this year and showed a negative correlation for those people that were prayed for... by the religious group trying to prove that prayer helps heart surgery patients... I'll find the link and edit this post later.

[MJZiggy]

I remember that study as well, but I didn't think it was a negative effect, I thought it didn't affect patients at all. I would love to see that study redone, though as the participant patients and "prayers" were not acquainted with one another. I kinda wonder if that makes a difference.

[Fosco33]

I remember that study as well, but I didn't think it was a negative effect, I thought it didn't affect patients at all. I would love to see that study redone, though as the participant patients and "prayers" were not acquainted with one another. I kinda wonder if that makes a difference.

Yeah, there's always questions on the study methodology. I say the power of the human mind is severly untapped. Doctors often agree that patients who have 'the will' to survive often recover faster from injuries (like spinal or brain). My take - prayer for someone else (that's known by the patient) gives them more self confidence. People who pray for themselves are being positive - which is hard to see as a bad thing.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0403/p13s02-lire.html

Highlights:


The Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP), published online March 30 by the American Heart Journal, showed no positive effect from the use of third-party intercessory prayer on behalf of patients undergoing a specific type of heart surgery at six medical centers around the United States when compared with a control group who were not prayed for as part of the study.

Another unexpected result: Patients who knew they were being prayed for had somewhat more medical complications than another group who also had received prayer but were uncertain as to whether they had or not. Researchers had expected the reverse outcome.

STEP aimed to provide more accurate results than four previous trials that involved cardiac patients, the authors said. The results of those trials were mixed: Two found a beneficial effect of prayer; two found no benefit. The earlier studies were also criticized for having design flaws, the authors said.

But the study itself is unlikely to satisfy those who question whether the effects of prayer can be measured using conventional scientific testing. They ask: How do you define what constitutes a prayer? Are all forms of prayer equally effective? How do you design a "dose" of prayer that is the same for each patient? And how do you rule out the effects of the patients' own prayers or prayers from others not involved in the study on behalf of the patient?

About 95 percent of all the STEP participants - including a control group that was not prayed for as part of the study - said that they expected friends, relatives, or members of their religious institutions to be praying for them. About two-thirds strongly agreed with the statement, "I believe in spiritual healing."

The authors were careful to point out the limited conclusions that could be drawn from their study. "Private or family prayer is widely believed to influence recovery from illness, and the results of this study do not challenge this belief," the authors wrote. "Our study focused only on intercessory prayer as provided in this trial and was never intended to and cannot address a large number of religious questions, such as whether God exists, whether God answers intercessory prayers, or whether prayers from one religious group work in the same way as prayers from other groups."

[Murphy37]

Interesting, I don't think that's the same study I read about. My mother is very religous, and is always mailing me magazine articles about religion, prayer etc. The article I read had results that heavily favored the power of prayer. I'll have to ask my dear mother what magazine she clipped it from.
Is there a God? How would Reggie answer?

[MJZiggy]

Murphy, you're probably thinking of the first study that Fosco and I were talking about where the patients studied prayed on their own. That one did have a strong correlation between prayer and healing, but like I mentioned, the religion of the patient did not affect the result (meaning that Christians got no more benefit from prayer than Buddhists got from meditation or anyone else got from their prayers.) I had read an article on the study that Fosco just posted, but the article I remember did not mention a negative correlation, rather it mentioned no correlation at all meaning that it should not have mattered at all whether a congregation in Texas was praying for the recovery of a patient that was unaware of that congregation's efforts. The negative result is rather surprising, unless perhaps the patients who knew about it were uncomfortable with the idea of a bunch of strangers praying over their gall bladders.