Ted Thompson's scalp

[Harlan Huckleby]

I told you so.

TT went into the season with more cap room than all but a handful of teams, and only one playable backup on the offensive line, Wells.

You can't blame the problem on injuries, injuries are expected.

[Fritz]

Ah, Harlan. You're not one to waste time, are you?

Maybe he'll extend the contracts of Colledge and Spitz and use up that cap room!

[]{ilr]3]

I dont think its out of line to be pissed at TT for the shit that happened on the field today. -I have been a big supporter, but the defense still gets a free pass as they are making a big adjustment to a new scheme. The Offense should be better, and so far they look like shit in the regular season.

I am pissed about what I saw today from the offense.

What the hell is going on out there? :evil:

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'm pissed and I haven't even watched the game yet! :lol: I post first because I don't want my analysis to be clouded by too much information. (I have a vague idea what happened from the talk radio in the car.)

[Tony Oday]

Because there were so many options available in FA.

The line needs to play like pros which they can and will.

[sheepshead]

I think we have the horses to go deep into the payoffs. That hasnt changed. I think this coaching staff is in deep shit if we dont win 10-11 games.

[Scott Campbell]

I think we have the horses to go deep into the payoffs. That hasnt changed. I think this coaching staff is in deep shit if we dont win 10-11 games.


This team has major problems. Unfortunately, winning 11 games is a pipe dream. Not behind this O-line.

[Noodle]

I think we have the horses to go deep into the payoffs. That hasnt changed. I think this coaching staff is in deep shit if we dont win 10-11 games.


This team has major problems. Unfortunately, winning 11 games is a pipe dream. Not behind this O-line.

And that's the problem. I've been reading from some good posters that our o-line is fine, not to worry, but man, no run game, and constant pass pro breakdowns.

My biggest problem is putting all our hopes on a 10-year guy with a history of injury. Now the shuffle begins, and it's not going to be pretty.

[falco]

Rodgers is on pace to get sacked about 80 times this year.

Jeez, even David Carr only had 76 sacks in his worst year.

[Deputy Nutz]

A veteran back up or two on the offensive line would be nice.

[retailguy]

A veteran back up or two on the offensive line would be nice.

music to my ears. we're just too inexperienced there for a team who has an "open window". we aren't rebuilding anymore. we need some veteran depth that can fill in like this. we've got a center. that's IT. the rest of the guys have little game experience.

[falco]

A veteran back up or two on the offensive line would be nice.

music to my ears. we're just too inexperienced there for a team who has an "open window". we aren't rebuilding anymore. we need some veteran depth that can fill in like this. we've got a center. that's IT. the rest of the guys have little game experience.

24 hours ago, I would have disagreed.

I'm beginning to think your argument might have merit...

[Partial]

I would love to see Tauscher brought back if only because I feel he has been a loyal Packer for years and deserves to retire in the G&G on his own terms and eventually enter the PHOF.

[falco]

I would love to see Tauscher brought back if only because I feel he has been a loyal Packer for years and deserves to retire in the G&G on his own terms and eventually enter the PHOF.

Disagree completely.

I'd love to see Tauscher brought back if he'd be an improvement on the line (and at this point, that might be a possibility).

The rest of your reasons don't justify making the move.

[retailguy]

A veteran back up or two on the offensive line would be nice.

music to my ears. we're just too inexperienced there for a team who has an "open window". we aren't rebuilding anymore. we need some veteran depth that can fill in like this. we've got a center. that's IT. the rest of the guys have little game experience.

24 hours ago, I would have disagreed.

I'm beginning to think your argument might have merit...

last week when barbre had lost it, we really didn't have anyone to fill in. this week with the injury, the replacement at least had game experience. the end result wasn't better this week, but probably will next week.

barbre played better, but was responsible for one of the sacks and several pressures.

no one but the coaches to work with these guys in practice. guys like runyan have been around the block. they may be old, but know every little trick in the book. even and old runyan wouldn't have looked like barbre did last week. he'd have known enough tricks to keep the guy honest.

colledge? Hell I hope he was just rusty from little play there during the preseason. if not, well, we're screwed.

[retailguy]

I would love to see Tauscher brought back if only because I feel he has been a loyal Packer for years and deserves to retire in the G&G on his own terms and eventually enter the PHOF.

Disagree completely.

I'd love to see Tauscher brought back if he'd be an improvement on the line (and at this point, that might be a possibility).

The rest of your reasons don't justify making the move.

guy has got to be able to play. right now, i think it's too soon. he's not ready to play yet. though I hope that's part of the plan after the bye week.

[gbgary]

I think we have the horses to go deep into the payoffs.


Playoffs...PLAYOFFS!!??

[retailguy]

I think we have the horses to go deep into the payoffs.


Playoffs...PLAYOFFS!!??

no no. PAYOFFS. He must be betting the spread or something.

[gbgary]

I think we have the horses to go deep into the payoffs.


Playoffs...PLAYOFFS!!??

no no. PAYOFFS. He must be betting the spread or something.

http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:forums.corvetteforum.com/get/images/smilies/lol.gif sorry. i misread that.

[Brohm]

A veteran back up or two on the offensive line would be nice.

music to my ears. we're just too inexperienced there for a team who has an "open window". we aren't rebuilding anymore. we need some veteran depth that can fill in like this. we've got a center. that's IT. the rest of the guys have little game experience.

But do teams let guys like a Jeff Dellenbach or a Bruce Wilkerson go in today's FA? I'd love some vet experience to guide the younger players, but it seems the ones left over are way over the hill or just suck to begin with.

[MOBB DEEP]

I told you so.



LOL

[sheepshead]

I think we have the horses to go deep into the payoffs.


Playoffs...PLAYOFFS!!??

no no. PAYOFFS. He must be betting the spread or something.

All i am saying iis, on paper , we have the talent. I am blaming the coaching staff for penalties, misreads. Poor play calling and a lack of concentration. McCarthy has to start looking over his shoulder.

[MOBB DEEP]

I think we have the horses to go deep into the payoffs.


Playoffs...PLAYOFFS!!??

no no. PAYOFFS. He must be betting the spread or something.

All i am saying iis, on paper , we have the talent. I am blaming the coaching staff for penalties, misreads. Poor play calling and a lack of concentration. McCarthy has to start looking over his shoulder.

Dont poison his dawg

[MOBB DEEP]

TT has a 32-34 record, 1 post season in 4 years.....

[MichiganPackerFan]

I would love to see Tauscher brought back if only because I feel he has been a loyal Packer for years and deserves to retire in the G&G on his own terms and eventually enter the PHOF.

Wholeheartedly agree - when would he be available?

[Deputy Nutz]

I think we have the horses to go deep into the payoffs.


Playoffs...PLAYOFFS!!??

no no. PAYOFFS. He must be betting the spread or something.

All i am saying iis, on paper , we have the talent. I am blaming the coaching staff for penalties, misreads. Poor play calling and a lack of concentration. McCarthy has to start looking over his shoulder.

Dont poison his dawg

I can't blame McCarthy for the penalties, sure the team is really sloppy right now, but penalties? McCarthy isn't happy with them, but it is against league policy to fine a player for too many penalties. Make them run a bunch, but he isn't the one holding or jumbing off sides. Young teams are going to make all of these mistakes, but most of you can keep telling yourself that it is a good thing to have the youngest team 4 years in a row.

[Zool]

but most of you can keep telling yourself that it is a good thing to have the youngest team 4 years in a row.

Really? You're gonna say most? Don't you have a knot hole in a fence somewhere to defile?

[mission]

I think we have the horses to go deep into the payoffs.


Playoffs...PLAYOFFS!!??

no no. PAYOFFS. He must be betting the spread or something.

All i am saying iis, on paper , we have the talent. I am blaming the coaching staff for penalties, misreads. Poor play calling and a lack of concentration. McCarthy has to start looking over his shoulder.

Dont poison his dawg

I can't blame McCarthy for the penalties, sure the team is really sloppy right now, but penalties? McCarthy isn't happy with them, but it is against league policy to fine a player for too many penalties. Make them run a bunch, but he isn't the one holding or jumbing off sides. Young teams are going to make all of these mistakes, but most of you can keep telling yourself that it is a good thing to have the youngest team 4 years in a row.

Really? You can't blame MM? Then you and I have completely different views on the role of the head coach in the NFL and what his job responsibilities are. Lack of discipline can be attributed to one thing.

[pbmax]

A veteran back up or two on the offensive line would be nice.

music to my ears. we're just too inexperienced there for a team who has an "open window". we aren't rebuilding anymore. we need some veteran depth that can fill in like this. we've got a center. that's IT. the rest of the guys have little game experience.

24 hours ago, I would have disagreed.

I'm beginning to think your argument might have merit...

last week when barbre had lost it, we really didn't have anyone to fill in. this week with the injury, the replacement at least had game experience. the end result wasn't better this week, but probably will next week.

barbre played better, but was responsible for one of the sacks and several pressures.

no one but the coaches to work with these guys in practice. guys like runyan have been around the block. they may be old, but know every little trick in the book. even and old runyan wouldn't have looked like barbre did last week. he'd have known enough tricks to keep the guy honest.

colledge? Hell I hope he was just rusty from little play there during the preseason. if not, well, we're screwed.
The Eagles have lost their presumed starting RT and still don't want Runyan back. Its obviously tempting, but there are definite signs he is done, fork and all.

Barbre clearly straightened his disaster out. Now he needs to clean up the normal problems. But the backup situation is intolerable at tackle. While RG and I disagree about Colledge's best position, he isn't ready to be LT now.

I prefer T2s approach as it mirrors what the Steelers, Patriots (prior to Moss signing) and Eagles (prior to buying a new O line this year) and these are the teams that year in and year out are playoff caliber despite heavy FA losses. Maybe the Ravens as well.

But even if you live that approach to building a team, the roster construction of the offensive line is idiotic. Your backup left tackle is on the practice squad obviously unready to play. And the backup RT is inactive on gameday. And Colledge, unless they practiced it during the closed sessions, has spent no time at Tackle this year.

[pbmax]

I would love to see Tauscher brought back if only because I feel he has been a loyal Packer for years and deserves to retire in the G&G on his own terms and eventually enter the PHOF.

Wholeheartedly agree - when would he be available?
Tauscher is still available because he is still rehabbing. A standard recovery period puts him as ready to practice in October.

[pbmax]

I can't blame McCarthy for the penalties, sure the team is really sloppy right now, but penalties? McCarthy isn't happy with them, but it is against league policy to fine a player for too many penalties. Make them run a bunch, but he isn't the one holding or jumbing off sides. Young teams are going to make all of these mistakes, but most of you can keep telling yourself that it is a good thing to have the youngest team 4 years in a row.
This baffles me. The coach cannot control penalties? Only vets will be able to control themselves? Paying attention is not a talent known only to older players, otherwise no high school or college team could control its penalties. The players need to fear McCarthy more than the opponent.

I don't think player discipline is age dependent. Look at Harris.

Four of the starters on the O line have 3+ years of experience starting on the line. You keep hammering youngest team, but where does the average experience of the O line stack up in the league? I bet its close to average. More than enough to avoid false starts.

[Cheesehead Craig]

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/1416/tedscalp.jpg

[Patler]

I can't blame McCarthy for the penalties, sure the team is really sloppy right now, but penalties? McCarthy isn't happy with them, but it is against league policy to fine a player for too many penalties. Make them run a bunch, but he isn't the one holding or jumbing off sides. Young teams are going to make all of these mistakes, but most of you can keep telling yourself that it is a good thing to have the youngest team 4 years in a row.
This baffles me. The coach cannot control penalties? Only vets will be able to control themselves? Paying attention is not a talent known only to older players, otherwise no high school or college team could control its penalties. The players need to fear McCarthy more than the opponent.

I don't think player discipline is age dependent. Look at Harris.

Four of the starters on the O line have 3+ years of experience starting on the line. You keep hammering youngest team, but where does the average experience of the O line stack up in the league? I bet its close to average. More than enough to avoid false starts.


Didn't TT point out last week that looking at the starters, the Packers are something like the 8th MOST experienced team in the league? It is the bottom of the roster that makes this team the youngest, not the starters.

I don't remember that many of the penalties being called against particularly young players. In the two weeks, Harris has a couple, Clifton also, I believe Woodson and Kampman each have one. Those guys clearly are not young. "Youth" is no longer an excuse either for Bush's 2 (or is it 3?) or for the ones from Kuhn, Poppinga and Spitz. Williams has a couple, I think; and he is sort of borderline on the youth/experience excuse. Mathews has one and so does Sitton for which the excuse may have some validity. That's not all of them, I don't think; but I just don't see it as a problem of youth.

[sheepshead]

I would love to see Tauscher brought back if only because I feel he has been a loyal Packer for years and deserves to retire in the G&G on his own terms and eventually enter the PHOF.

Wholeheartedly agree - when would he be available?
Tauscher is still available because he is still rehabbing. A standard recovery period puts him as ready to practice in October.

I heard he's had a few nibbles from teams and wants to play again.

[pbmax]

I would love to see Tauscher brought back if only because I feel he has been a loyal Packer for years and deserves to retire in the G&G on his own terms and eventually enter the PHOF.

Wholeheartedly agree - when would he be available?
Tauscher is still available because he is still rehabbing. A standard recovery period puts him as ready to practice in October.

I heard he's had a few nibbles from teams and wants to play again.
Perhaps, but something is happening, or more precisely, not happening and probably for a simple reason. Tauscher started banging the drum that he was a record number of weeks ahead of schedule before Spring was over and he still hasn't latched on. He also has been missing from the airwaves in Milwaukee from his normal weekly gig.

The original timeline of a typical recovery put him as available in October. Since he isn't signed, he either isn't ready or hasn't liked the offers so far. He might want to stay in Green Bay. But there is no way to know.

[Waldo]

barbre played better, but was responsible for one of the sacks and several pressures.

What game were you watching.

Rodgers was sacked 6 times. 5 came from Odom, over the LT, he beat Cliffy 2 times and DC 3 times (worth noting that he beat Clady 2 times last week, and Clady didn't give up a single sack last season). The other came from Maualuga, who demolished Corey Hall 1 on 1 on a blitz outside of the LT.

Of course though, 3-4 of those sacks really were because Rodgers held on to it way too long, not because the LT got torched. Only once was DC beat cleanly and quickly. Every other time a faster pass would have resulted in nothing.

Barbre kept his guy in check all day.

[Waldo]

But even if you live that approach to building a team, the roster construction of the offensive line is idiotic. Your backup left tackle is on the practice squad obviously unready to play. And the backup RT is inactive on gameday. And Colledge, unless they practiced it during the closed sessions, has spent no time at Tackle this year.

What a great idea it was to end "the musical chairs" this year 'eh.

Great idea if nobody gets hurt. Terrible idea if people get hurt.

There is no such thing as 1:1 backups, and gameday all teams only carry 7 active OL. There needs to be musical chairs, it is the reality of the 53 and 45 man rosters. Otherwise you end up with a LT that hasn't taken a single snap in 10 months at LT, that needs to be ready at a moments notice, and a LG that hasn't taken a snap at LG in 10 months that needs to be ready at a moments notice. Even if they are regular starters, the footwork is different.

People say it like it's a problem, that we have no backup LT. How many teams in the league don't play their backup LT elsewhere on the line? I would wager zero. Everybody shuffles people when the LT is hurt. It is the reality of the NFL. The 2nd best pass protector is a valuable part of the starting lineup for every team in the league.

Another side effect that we are seeing IMO.....

All summer we ran a 3-4 or 2-4-5 in practice.
Buf played a 4-3
Cle played a 3-4 or 2-4-5
Ari played a 3-4, 3-3-5 hybrid and a 2-4-5
They only played a series against Tn's 4-3

Our scout team 4-3 DE's are linebackers.

Our T's haven't had much work with a DE in front of them yet this season.

[pbmax]

But even if you live that approach to building a team, the roster construction of the offensive line is idiotic. Your backup left tackle is on the practice squad obviously unready to play. And the backup RT is inactive on gameday. And Colledge, unless they practiced it during the closed sessions, has spent no time at Tackle this year.

What a great idea it was to end "the musical chairs" this year 'eh.

Great idea if nobody gets hurt. Terrible idea if people get hurt.

There is no such thing as 1:1 backups, and gameday all teams only carry 7 active OL. There needs to be musical chairs, it is the reality of the 53 and 45 man rosters. Otherwise you end up with a LT that hasn't taken a single snap in 10 months at LT, that needs to be ready at a moments notice, and a LG that hasn't taken a snap at LG in 10 months that needs to be ready at a moments notice. Even if they are regular starters, the footwork is different.

People say it like it's a problem, that we have no backup LT. How many teams in the league don't play their backup LT elsewhere on the line? I would wager zero. Everybody shuffles people when the LT is hurt. It is the reality of the NFL. The 2nd best pass protector is a valuable part of the starting lineup for every team in the league.

Another side effect that we are seeing IMO.....

All summer we ran a 3-4 or 2-4-5 in practice.
Buf played a 4-3
Cle played a 3-4 or 2-4-5
Ari played a 3-4, 3-3-5 hybrid and a 2-4-5
They only played a series against Tn's 4-3

Our scout team 4-3 DE's are linebackers.

Our T's haven't had much work with a DE in front of them yet this season.
You make a fine point about the game day actives. They indeed had seven active (Smith and Giacomini were inactive). But since tackle and center are the two most difficult positions, it should be those two that get the primary backup practice time.

Center is covered. I'd like to know if Colledge spent time at tackle. The only other body who has been at Tackle is Lang.

[Waldo]

Center is covered. I'd like to know if Colledge spent time at tackle. The only other body who has been at Tackle is Lang.

No, McCarthy's highly touted "no musical chairs" mantra this summer kept Colledge exclusively at LG.

Moll got all the backup LT snaps, aside from a couple here and there that Meredith got.

And Moll no longer is a Packer.

Lang has only taken a couple snaps at RT. Most of his work has been at LG. Again, "no musical chairs" might make him a better LG, but it leaves him ill prepared to fill in elsewhere along the line.

[Patler]

barbre played better, but was responsible for one of the sacks and several pressures.

What game were you watching.

Rodgers was sacked 6 times. 5 came from Odom, over the LT, he beat Cliffy 2 times and DC 3 times (worth noting that he beat Clady 2 times last week, and Clady didn't give up a single sack last season). The other came from Maualuga, who demolished Corey Hall 1 on 1 on a blitz outside of the LT.

Of course though, 3-4 of those sacks really were because Rodgers held on to it way too long, not because the LT got torched. Only once was DC beat cleanly and quickly. Every other time a faster pass would have resulted in nothing.

Barbre kept his guy in check all day.

Waldo, perhaps someone should ask you what game you were watching? In the game I watched, Odom had just one sack in the first half, and it came when he lined up at tackle between Spitz and Colledge, not against Clifton. Clifton went out on the Packer's first offensive play, a running play, in the second half. So how Odom got two sacks against Clifton is unclear to me.

Even the coaches have to watch the films over and over to attribute fault when a play breaks down. No need to call out a fan for seeing something different than you did, especially when I have my doubts if your version is correct either. I'm not saying it is wrong, but it's not the way I saw the game.

[Harlan Huckleby]

How many teams in the league don't play their backup LT elsewhere on the line? I would wager zero .

I accept your wager, and will even spot your 10 teams. (This is a safe bet, since it is impossible to verify. :wink: )

I bet more than half the teams have a backup LT.

[Harlan Huckleby]

All i am saying iis, on paper , we have the talent.

This a stretch, the offensive line hasn't been particularly strong for several years. I agree there is "hope", but "talent" has to be demonstrated.

I really like Sitton, and Barbre has potential. With no backups at tackle, the offensive line as a group is a problem area.

[Waldo]

How many teams in the league don't play their backup LT elsewhere on the line? I would wager zero .

I accept your wager, and will even spot your 10 teams. (This is a safe bet, since it is impossible to verify. :wink: )

I bet more than half the teams have a backup LT.

Yeah, the RT or LG.

1) Why would you put your 2nd best pass protector on the bench?
2) Why would anybody but the 2nd best pass protector be the backup LT and protect the QB's blindside?

[mraynrand]

Harlan would win the bet on a technicality. Packers depth chart as of 9-9 (Note that Colledge is not listed as T depth, which supports Waldo's point):

OFFENSE (25)

WR - Greg Jennings, Donald Driver, James Jones, Jordy Nelson, Brett Swain

TE - Donald Lee, Jermichael Finley, Spencer Havner

T - Chad Clifton, Allen Barbre, Breno Giacomini

G - Daryn Colledge, Josh Sitton, T.J. Lang, Evan Dietrich-Smith

C - Jason Spitz, Scott Wells

QB - Aaron Rodgers, Matt Flynn

RB - Ryan Grant, Brandon Jackson, DeShawn Wynn

FB - John Kuhn, Korey Hall, Quinn Johnson

[Harlan Huckleby]

1) Why would you put your 2nd best pass protector on the bench?

LT is something of a specialty. Why would you expect that centers and guards can play the position?

[Patler]

1) Why would you put your 2nd best pass protector on the bench?

LT is something of a specialty. Why would you expect that centers and guards can play the position?

Cuz Mike Flanagan did, and quite well, too! :)

[Waldo]

1) Why would you put your 2nd best pass protector on the bench?

LT is something of a specialty. Why would you expect that centers and guards can play the position?

It is not just the Packers, a good % of the league's lineman played LT at some point. Colleges put their best lineman at LT. The NFL only takes the best.

Clifton, Colledge, Lang, Meredith, Barbre, and Deitrich-Smith all played LT in college.

Sitton was a RT in college (LH QB I believe). Spitz and Wells are our only lineman that weren't college tackles.

[Harlan Huckleby]

So you're saying that most nfl lineman can play LT in the NFL?

I don't think so.

[3irty1]

So you're saying that most nfl lineman can play LT in the NFL?

I don't think so.

All he's saying is that most backups for the LT aren't just a backup, they also start somewhere else on the line. I'd imagine that's true.

[Waldo]

So you're saying that most nfl lineman can play LT in the NFL?

I don't think so.

No, that most have experience at it, including G's (not a lot of C's).

And that it is idiotic to bench your 2nd best pass protector in the name of not shuffling for injuries, and idiotic to not use your 2nd best pass protector as your backup LT due to the high potential of losing the ball (not injury) if the QB gets hit from behind.

Almost all, if not all, NFL teams start their backup LT elsewhere. Most NFL lineman have played LT at some point anyway. Very few lineman that weren't good enough to play LT in college make it in the NFL. Unless they are short. Then they snap.

There is no can and can't. There is good and less good. Chances are the 2nd best pass protector is the least less good at LT, no matter what position he otherwise plays.

[Harlan Huckleby]

And that it is idiotic to bench your 2nd best pass protector .

You keep stating as fact that the backup LT must be the second best pass blocker, and that every team in the NFL will break-up their starting line to move that player to LT. I don't buy either. I expect about half the teams half a tackle with decent pass blocking skills who they would prefer to fill-in rather than reshuffle the line.

[Harlan Huckleby]

So you're saying that most nfl lineman can play LT in the NFL?

I don't think so.

All he's saying is that most backups for the LT aren't just a backup, they also start somewhere else on the line. I'd imagine that's true.

He claims "almost all, if not all" teams have no dedicated LT backup. And he also said that most lineman have experience at LT and can play LT. I don't buy either claim.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I just did a google on "backup Left tackle, NFL", the first two links are about Ugoh, backup left tackle for the colts. And second link is article how Max Starks was a backup tackle for Pittsburg last year and filled-in when Marvel Smith had back problems.

Your theory is taking on water.

[Waldo]

I just did a google on "backup Left tackle, NFL", the first two links are about Ugoh, backup left tackle for the colts. And second link is article how Max Starks was a backup tackle for Pittsburg last year and filled-in when Marvel Smith had back problems.

Your theory is taking on water.

Starks has started 47 of 74 possible games in his career, 47 of 64 since his rookie year. He lost a camp competition to Colon at RT in '07, but started a few games at LT, then the competition at RT was reopened, as Starks was definitely the better pass blocker, Colon the better run blocker. Colon was almost moved to G in favor of Starks at RT, but the injury to Smith made him a permanent LT. They put the transition tag on him in '08, paying him 7M for the year, and gave him a 4yr extension at low end LT money. Backup. LOL. He was the future at LT for the team, everybody knew it. If Starks gets hurt, RG Trey Essex slides over, he is the backup LT.

Ugoh has started 23 of 28 games in his career, he was the LT, but their backup LG (filling in for Lilja) showed to be a better pass protector, thus getting moved to LT, Ugoh being benched as the supersub, he couldn't beat out Lilja at LG (returning from injury) or Charlie at LT this year in camp. He was brought in to be the future at LT (higher draft pick than DC), but after a good rookie year he has big time regressed and appears to be a bust. Indy is in fact playing their former backup LT, their LG, at LT, after benching their former LT.

Next.

We just played a LG playing LT. The Bengals cut their former LT, Levi Jones, after drafting Andre Smith; while he gets up to speed, their LG Andre Whitworth, formerly the 2nd best pass protector on the team, is currently the starting LT.

[Patler]

Waldo; I am a little confused about what your argument really is. You stated:


Almost all, if not all, NFL teams start their backup LT elsewhere. Most NFL lineman have played LT at some point anyway. Very few lineman that weren't good enough to play LT in college make it in the NFL. Unless they are short. Then they snap.

There is no can and can't. There is good and less good. Chances are the 2nd best pass protector is the least less good at LT, no matter what position he otherwise plays.

Then, when you are presented with a name of a backup LT not currently a starter, you write about him having been a starter, but getting beaten out. Why is that relevant? You write about reorganized lines coming out of TC moving a starter from elsewhere to LT. That's a different situation entirely than a midseason injury substitution.

I looked at the depth charts of the first 16 teams alphabetically. Five list a starter elsewhere as the backup LT or do not list a backup LT, and presumably a starter elsewhere is the backup. Green bay is one of the teams with no backup LT listed. Eleven of the teams list a backup LT who is not a starter elsewhere. I realize that the list is not golden, and when faced with the actual situation a starter elsewhere might be used at LT before the listed backup is used.

But, "Almost all, if not all...."? Might be hard to prove without polling the head coaches about what they would really do in the situation! :lol:

[Harlan Huckleby]

Waldo, I think you would be on solid ground in stating, "it is not unusual for a team to use a starter as a backup at LT." I suspect it is about 50%, I thought about doing a team depth chart search as Patler did, but didn't have the heart for it.

I think we need to get back to the issue of Ted Thompson's scalp. Did he assemble enough depth for the offensive line? I say NO. Having zero playable backups at tackle is at least 1 too few.

I suppose you can say that Moll let him down, but that was TT's call to rely on him.

[pbmax]

1) Why would you put your 2nd best pass protector on the bench?

LT is something of a specialty. Why would you expect that centers and guards can play the position?

Cuz Mike Flanagan did, and quite well, too! :)
That was amazing. Not such a good thing for the eventual success of the team (they were clearly weaker after having to make the switch) but Flanagan should get his own section of the Packer Hall of Fame for being able to play both effectively.

[mngolf19]

How many teams in the league don't play their backup LT elsewhere on the line? I would wager zero .

I accept your wager, and will even spot your 10 teams. (This is a safe bet, since it is impossible to verify. :wink: )

I bet more than half the teams have a backup LT.

Vikes backup LT is Hicks and he is also backup at RT and RG. He does not start anywhere.

[mraynrand]

How many teams in the league don't play their backup LT elsewhere on the line? I would wager zero .

I accept your wager, and will even spot your 10 teams. (This is a safe bet, since it is impossible to verify. :wink: )

I bet more than half the teams have a backup LT.

Vikes backup LT is Hicks and he is also backup at RT and RG. He does not start anywhere.

I think you and Harlan may be missing the point, but let me know if I'm wrong. Hicks is the listed backup on the depth chart but that doesn't guarantee that he will be the guy who will go in at LT if McKinnie goes down - Someone else like Hutch, from along the line could take that spot. Being listed as backup on the depth chart doesn't mean you will come in at that spot. Colledge is not listed on the LT depth chart. (I think that's how depth charts work - you don't list the same guy twice)

[Patler]

How many teams in the league don't play their backup LT elsewhere on the line? I would wager zero .

I accept your wager, and will even spot your 10 teams. (This is a safe bet, since it is impossible to verify. :wink: )

I bet more than half the teams have a backup LT.

Vikes backup LT is Hicks and he is also backup at RT and RG. He does not start anywhere.

I think you and Harlan may be missing the point, but let me know if I'm wrong. Hicks is the listed backup on the depth chart but that doesn't guarantee that he will be the guy who will go in at LT if McKinnie goes down - Someone else like Hutch, from along the line could take that spot. Being listed as backup on the depth chart doesn't mean you will come in at that spot. Colledge is not listed on the LT depth chart. (I think that's how depth charts work - you don't list the same guy twice)

It depends, some teams do list guys twice. For example, on their website K.C. lists Ndukwe as the starter at RT and as the backup at LT. There aren't any "rules" about it though, as far as I know.

[pbmax]

How many teams in the league don't play their backup LT elsewhere on the line? I would wager zero .

I accept your wager, and will even spot your 10 teams. (This is a safe bet, since it is impossible to verify. :wink: )

I bet more than half the teams have a backup LT.

Vikes backup LT is Hicks and he is also backup at RT and RG. He does not start anywhere.

I think you and Harlan may be missing the point, but let me know if I'm wrong. Hicks is the listed backup on the depth chart but that doesn't guarantee that he will be the guy who will go in at LT if McKinnie goes down - Someone else like Hutch, from along the line could take that spot. Being listed as backup on the depth chart doesn't mean you will come in at that spot. Colledge is not listed on the LT depth chart. (I think that's how depth charts work - you don't list the same guy twice)
They used to. But then coaches got the bright idea that being misleading was a strategic advantage. So the league forces them to keep an updated depth chart.

What they eventually learned was that by not putting reality into writing, they may never need to defend it. Thus inactive Breno Giacomini is the depth chart backup at LT, but in reality everyone knew it was Clifton.

[mngolf19]

How many teams in the league don't play their backup LT elsewhere on the line? I would wager zero .

I accept your wager, and will even spot your 10 teams. (This is a safe bet, since it is impossible to verify. :wink: )

I bet more than half the teams have a backup LT.

Vikes backup LT is Hicks and he is also backup at RT and RG. He does not start anywhere.

I think you and Harlan may be missing the point, but let me know if I'm wrong. Hicks is the listed backup on the depth chart but that doesn't guarantee that he will be the guy who will go in at LT if McKinnie goes down - Someone else like Hutch, from along the line could take that spot. Being listed as backup on the depth chart doesn't mean you will come in at that spot. Colledge is not listed on the LT depth chart. (I think that's how depth charts work - you don't list the same guy twice)
They used to. But then coaches got the bright idea that being misleading was a strategic advantage. So the league forces them to keep an updated depth chart.

What they eventually learned was that by not putting reality into writing, they may never need to defend it. Thus inactive Breno Giacomini is the depth chart backup at LT, but in reality everyone knew it was Clifton.

I'm not sure who is listed where but Hicks always comes in first to replace McKinnie when he needs it. And if RT also needs filling then it goes to Cook if Hicks is already filling in for McKinnie. Otherwise Hicks is the first backup at all 3 positions. Hutch only plays LG, they have other guys they would put there or C if they needed replacing. Cooper/Cook at C or Cook at G.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Jason Smith, the Rams starting RT, is out this week with an injury. Fortunately for them, they have a decent player in Adam Goldberg who backs up both tackle positons.

Must be nice.

[Waldo]

Jason Smith, the Rams starting RT, is out this week with an injury. Fortunately for them, they have a decent player in Adam Goldberg who backs up both tackle positons.

Must be nice.

Too bad he's not going to be on Matthews side, so Matthews can pad his stats.

Unfortunately Kamp seems to have hit the 30=useless wall that non-legendary pass rushers hit.

The Rams don't even have decent starting T's. If he was decent he'd be starting.

[mraynrand]

Jason Smith, the Rams starting RT, is out this week with an injury. Fortunately for them, they have a decent player in Adam Goldberg who backs up both tackle positons.

Must be nice.

Too bad he's not going to be on Matthews side, so Matthews can pad his stats.

Unfortunately Kamp seems to have hit the 30=useless wall that non-legendary pass rushers hit.

The Rams don't even have decent starting T's. If he was decent he'd be starting.

The Rams center also got knocked out of the game against the Redskins. He came back but didn't look so good.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Jason Smith, the Rams starting RT, is out this week with an injury. Fortunately for them, they have a decent player in Adam Goldberg who backs up both tackle positons.

Must be nice.

Too bad he's not going to be on Matthews side, so Matthews can pad his stats.

Unfortunately Kamp seems to have hit the 30=useless wall that non-legendary pass rushers hit.

The Rams don't even have decent starting T's. If he was decent he'd be starting.

Smith was the second pick in the draft, I doubt he is a fish. Goldberg and Smith competed for the starting the job and Smith edged him out.

http://www.kansascity.com/491/story/1460533.html
Adam Goldberg replaced Smith during Sunday's game and is likely to get the start against the Packers.

"The one thing about Adam you're going to know is no matter where he's going to have to plug-in; he's going to know what to do," said Spagnuolo. "That's the kind of guy he is. That's what you need to be a back up in the NFL. I thought he did a real nice job."

Now that's what the Packers are missing. Bad on Ted.

[Waldo]

Smith also came from a spread offense and was raw as hell. He by far was the most physically talented OT in the draft. He also wasn't nearly as good of an actual player as most OT's taken on the first day. He has the potential to be great, but right now, that is all it is. He struggled in PS.

Moll knew what he was doing too. Doesn't mean that he was any good at doing it.