Doom and Gloom @ Packerrats

[Fritz]

Every time I come to Packerrats lately I see nothing but pessimism and criticism. Wow, are people here - most of them - ever negative about the Packers. I've read numerous times now that Minnesota has more talent, that Minnesota has done a better job of building its defensive and offensive lines, that Percy Harvin is a star waiting to happen, that Thompson has failed to have enough veteran backup help, that he loves youth too much, that the GB offensive coaches suck, that the Packers will just slam the ball uselessly into the Williams wall, that the Packers will not even bother to run so the Vikes will tee off, and on and on and on and on.

We're three games into the season. Last year sucked, for sure. This year's team certainly appears to be a work in progress, and as always - for NFL teams - any major injuries can tear up a team.

To me, the jury is still out on this team, and consequently on the coaches and GM. If this team goes 8 -8 with no major injuries, then it may well be that either McCarthy has to go or that both McCarthy and Thompson have to go.

But for so many of you, the jury seems to be in: it's over, the season is lost, we're gonna get trashed by Minny, oh, oh, oh.

Buncha Eeyores out there.

I say wait and see. I say that the Pack can win on Monday night. I say that if the Packers show definite signs of improvement yet still lose a close game (and there are no major injuries), the season's not over yet, either. That won't be fatal.

Let's see how it plays out.

[get louder at lambeau]

That negativity is everywhere, unfortunately. It's very annoying. Many Packer fans love to pick at the team and then say "I told you so." for some reason. Makes them feel better after a loss, I guess.

[bobblehead]

I have been down on our performance so far, but I will also say that our running game starts out slow every year and tends to look better in our first game against chicago or Minnesota....well, this year we played chicago out of the gates, but if we run the ball OK against the queens it will go a long ways towards making me feel better.

Even though I expected better play we are still 2-1 and 1-0 in the division atm, that ain't bad. Minny fans probably aren't happy with HOW they won last week either, they didn't look as awesome against san fran as they did the prior weeks. (classic look ahead performance, but maybe ours was too).

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Fritz,

The problem is that those "realists" understand the pack and NFL better than the rest of us.

Certainly you can't make any argument that a team like this could every make the playoffs or make a run at the superbowl.

When Ty thinks of the great Giants team of 2007 and the way they cruised thru the season, ty cries for this packer team. When Ty thinks of the Cardinal juggernaut of last year, ty gnashes his teeth and wails.

[MJZiggy]

Every time I come to Packerrats lately I see nothing but pessimism and criticism. Wow, are people here - most of them - ever negative about the Packers. I've read numerous times now that Minnesota has more talent, that Minnesota has done a better job of building its defensive and offensive lines, that Percy Harvin is a star waiting to happen, that Thompson has failed to have enough veteran backup help, that he loves youth too much, that the GB offensive coaches suck, that the Packers will just slam the ball uselessly into the Williams wall, that the Packers will not even bother to run so the Vikes will tee off, and on and on and on and on.

We're three games into the season. Last year sucked, for sure. This year's team certainly appears to be a work in progress, and as always - for NFL teams - any major injuries can tear up a team.

To me, the jury is still out on this team, and consequently on the coaches and GM. If this team goes 8 -8 with no major injuries, then it may well be that either McCarthy has to go or that both McCarthy and Thompson have to go.

But for so many of you, the jury seems to be in: it's over, the season is lost, we're gonna get trashed by Minny, oh, oh, oh.

Buncha Eeyores out there.

I say wait and see. I say that the Pack can win on Monday night. I say that if the Packers show definite signs of improvement yet still lose a close game (and there are no major injuries), the season's not over yet, either. That won't be fatal.

Let's see how it plays out.

:worship: :bclap: :bump: :bow:

It's the same as I said in the thread that B started. If we lose, I fear this place will be completely intolerable. The game threads are littered with it and every time someone wants to put something in a positive light or defend a player (Grant actually CAN run behind a decent line, we've seen him do it before. If the line comes together, I see no reason he can't do the same as he has in the past) they get shot down. I will likely be called on the parenthetical Grant example as, of course, he hasn't shown anything since 2007 even if he has.

I get that some folks don't like the current management, but do you have to bring it up sarcastically in EVERY thread? We know how you feel. There is no doubt.

I've said all this before, it's nothing new. We actually had some very good technical football discussions for a while. They don't all have to be rah-rah cheerleading, but can we at least discuss the possibility that this team may be worth something. We're not the Rams or the Raiders. Go read the article in the Perspective thread again if you need to.

[Fritz]

"We actually had some very good technical football discussions for a while. They don't all have to be rah-rah cheerleading..."

And these I enjoy. This thread is not about drinking kool aid, I want to be, like Nixon, perfectly clear on that.

I think KY for example, has made some salient points about the way TT has built his offensive line and how it may negatively affect this team, this year. I think Bretsky's theory of line-building is worthy of discussion, though I think too that several others have made good points about how the loss of NFL-E has perhaps forced teams to keep guys on the roster who are young and completely unprepared. This may be an NFL wide trend and it would be interesting to study other teams and see if they, too, are being forced to keep young, untested blood that is not ready.

And saying "I don't think this team, as it's built, can win," is an interesting point. I don't agree but an explanation as to how it's not built right and what could have been done differently - oh, lovely hindsight! - can be fun.

But there's this weird bitterness that seeps into so many posts these days...this complete lack of awareness that the season is long and much can happen. Ty hits on this beautifully in his post above.

For my part, should it turn out to be so that the Packers develop during the season and play well enough to get into the playoffs and do some damage, I have to be careful not to crow, too - what for? Do I really know, right now, that this team will turn out great? Of course not. The people inside 1265 Lombardi would know more, and they don't even know.

So if the season turns out well, I'm just going to focus on enjoying it with my fellow Packer fans. For years and years I rooted for the Pack alone here in Detroit. I want to celebrate the fact that I am now with fellow Packer fans.

[wist43]

You guys call me Eeyore all the time for simply giving my analysis.

After the 1st game someone started a thread that said... "after this game, no one can criticize the LB'ing"... or something to that effect - I did, and was drawn and quartered, as usual.

I'm not thrilled with the LB'ers, and gave my reasons. Their play has been mediocre. It is an area that needs to be addressed next offseason. TT has stated as much in talking about transitioning to different body types that are a better fit for the 3-4, and I agree.

The other area that needs shoreing up is the OL... that's obvious. I'm hoping Barbre can be the answer at RT, but man... same mistakes over and over... at some point you have to call it a day and move on. The OL inability to protect Rodgers has ground the offense to a halt.

Those things are obvious... just analysis, not "sky is falling".

I'm hopeful the OL can come around... and if they remain deficient, I hope MM will adjust his game plans - to this point he has been fairly stubborn in admitting that Barbre not only needs help, but until he picks it up, the game plans need to be pared down.

At the end of the day... I see upside. I'm hopeful the OL will come around, they have a history of starting slowly under MM, and then picking it up as the season goes on; and, the defense should be average - maybe a little above average, if Capers can put together game plans that maximize strengths, and hide weaknesses.

I started out preseason thinking 9-7... but after seeing their domination in the preseason, became more optimistic... operative word now might be temperance :)

[pbmax]

I don't want to draw and quarter you wist, but Barbre graded out as the best lineman against the Rams. If McCarthy game plans help for him, he is leaving a few other things uncovered :lol:

No doom and gloom at this computer. I am beyond excited. Monday is going to be impossible to get through.

[Pugger]

I'm not down on our LBers. This defense is still a work in progress. I think we'll see improvement and ups and downs for a few weeks as Capers' D is honed by our guys. But if the unthinkable happens and we lose on Monday I will not visit ANY Packer forums for several days afterwards. The TT haters will be unbearable. :( :evil:

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I'm not down on our LBers. This defense is still a work in progress. I think we'll see improvement and ups and downs for a few weeks as Capers' D is honed by our guys. But if the unthinkable happens and we lose on Monday I will not visit ANY Packer forums for several days afterwards. The TT haters will be unbearable. :( :evil:

Sane and sensible.

Ty is a big believer in the 4 seasons mentality. Think it was a cowher thing (ok, pb..waldo..who was it?) At worst we are gonna be 2-2 in the first quarter.

As long as we are 4-4 or close to it, we can make a run.

[denverYooper]

I'm not down on our LBers. This defense is still a work in progress. I think we'll see improvement and ups and downs for a few weeks as Capers' D is honed by our guys. But if the unthinkable happens and we lose on Monday I will not visit ANY Packer forums for several days afterwards. The TT haters will be unbearable. :( :evil:

Sane and sensible.

Ty is a big believer in the 4 seasons mentality. Think it was a cowher thing (ok, pb..waldo..who was it?) At worst we are gonna be 2-2 in the first quarter.

As long as we are 4-4 or close to it, we can make a run.

Didn't George Seifert say he built/planned to win in November? As in, the second half is where the season is made or broken?

[The Shadow]

Don't worry.
I am willing the Packers to win.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I'm not down on our LBers. This defense is still a work in progress. I think we'll see improvement and ups and downs for a few weeks as Capers' D is honed by our guys. But if the unthinkable happens and we lose on Monday I will not visit ANY Packer forums for several days afterwards. The TT haters will be unbearable. :( :evil:

Sane and sensible.

Ty is a big believer in the 4 seasons mentality. Think it was a cowher thing (ok, pb..waldo..who was it?) At worst we are gonna be 2-2 in the first quarter.

As long as we are 4-4 or close to it, we can make a run.

Didn't George Seifert say he built/planned to win in November? As in, the second half is where the season is made or broken?

Don't know or remember, but it makes total sense.

If we have learned anything the past 2 years...is stay in the race....and then get hot.

Look at the Cards...they sucked pretty much all season..and barely made the playoffs.

[hoosier]

"We actually had some very good technical football discussions for a while. They don't all have to be rah-rah cheerleading..."

And these I enjoy. This thread is not about drinking kool aid, I want to be, like Nixon, perfectly clear on that.

I think KY for example, has made some salient points about the way TT has built his offensive line and how it may negatively affect this team, this year. I think Bretsky's theory of line-building is worthy of discussion, though I think too that several others have made good points about how the loss of NFL-E has perhaps forced teams to keep guys on the roster who are young and completely unprepared. This may be an NFL wide trend and it would be interesting to study other teams and see if they, too, are being forced to keep young, untested blood that is not ready.

And saying "I don't think this team, as it's built, can win," is an interesting point. I don't agree but an explanation as to how it's not built right and what could have been done differently - oh, lovely hindsight! - can be fun.

But there's this weird bitterness that seeps into so many posts these days...this complete lack of awareness that the season is long and much can happen. Ty hits on this beautifully in his post above.

For my part, should it turn out to be so that the Packers develop during the season and play well enough to get into the playoffs and do some damage, I have to be careful not to crow, too - what for? Do I really know, right now, that this team will turn out great? Of course not. The people inside 1265 Lombardi would know more, and they don't even know.

So if the season turns out well, I'm just going to focus on enjoying it with my fellow Packer fans. For years and years I rooted for the Pack alone here in Detroit. I want to celebrate the fact that I am now with fellow Packer fans.

Nice post, Fritz.

[PlantPage55]

Losing that Bengals game, IMO, has caused about 80% of this. If we would have won that game, as ugly as it was, we're 3-0 and the gloom and doom is not nearly as bad.

How fair is that though? If we would have had one more play, and had won the game, that doesn't change how poorly we played for the rest of the game. But, ah, see, losing that game that was supposed to be so easy gives the chicken littles the ability to talk about how awful we are. A week later, the Bengals don't seem as bad as they did before we played them, but the pessimism that was born out of that game still exists, because it had a week in between to fester.

I don't in any way mean to suggest that our loss to the Bengals was "OK" - a loss is never okay. But better it be at the beginning of the season, that came down to the final seconds of the game, to a team that is NOT the joke that we thought they were, than some other type of loss.

[superfan]

Losing that Bengals game, IMO, has caused about 80% of this. If we would have won that game, as ugly as it was, we're 3-0 and the gloom and doom is not nearly as bad.

How fair is that though? If we would have had one more play, and had won the game, that doesn't change how poorly we played for the rest of the game. But, ah, see, losing that game that was supposed to be so easy gives the chicken littles the ability to talk about how awful we are. A week later, the Bengals don't seem as bad as they did before we played them, but the pessimism that was born out of that game still exists, because it had a week in between to fester.

I don't in any way mean to suggest that our loss to the Bengals was "OK" - a loss is never okay. But better it be at the beginning of the season, that came down to the final seconds of the game, to a team that is NOT the joke that we thought they were, than some other type of loss.

Excellent post. I have always found some humor in the "whine line" reactions after games - it's amazing how often one critical play here or there results in a win or loss, and how much that one play shapes the entire perception of the game. A win always glosses over the negatives, while a loss accentuates them.

Imagine how much different the national coverage leading up to Monday's game would be if the Vikings had failed to pull out a victory last week. And that victory ultimately came down to one play.

[channtheman]

Losing that Bengals game, IMO, has caused about 80% of this. If we would have won that game, as ugly as it was, we're 3-0 and the gloom and doom is not nearly as bad.

How fair is that though? If we would have had one more play, and had won the game, that doesn't change how poorly we played for the rest of the game. But, ah, see, losing that game that was supposed to be so easy gives the chicken littles the ability to talk about how awful we are. A week later, the Bengals don't seem as bad as they did before we played them, but the pessimism that was born out of that game still exists, because it had a week in between to fester.

I don't in any way mean to suggest that our loss to the Bengals was "OK" - a loss is never okay. But better it be at the beginning of the season, that came down to the final seconds of the game, to a team that is NOT the joke that we thought they were, than some other type of loss.

Excellent post. I have always found some humor in the "whine line" reactions after games - it's amazing how often one critical play here or there results in a win or loss, and how much that one play shapes the entire perception of the game. A win always glosses over the negatives, while a loss accentuates them.

Imagine how much different the national coverage leading up to Monday's game would be if the Vikings had failed to pull out a victory last week. And that victory ultimately came down to one play.

And Favre actually did throw the interception that would have led to a TD and sealed the game. Unfortunately the 49er dropped it.

[swede]

You guys are cheering me up!

Is this where we break into song?

[MJZiggy]

You guys are cheering me up!

Is this where we break into song?

Yes.

[Fritz]

You guys are cheering me up!

Is this where we break into song?

Just like a Disney musical. If there were lunch tables around, we'd jump up on them and do some shit Fred Astaire could only dream of.

[MJZiggy]

You guys are cheering me up!

Is this where we break into song?

Just like a Disney musical. If there were lunch tables around, we'd jump up on them and do some shit Fred Astaire could only dream of.

I'm pretty sure he would have dreamt--ah never mind...!

[bigcoz75]

You guys are cheering me up!

Is this where we break into song?

Just like a Disney musical. If there were lunch tables around, we'd jump up on them and do some shit Fred Astaire could only dream of.
Nah I'm from GreenBay. I'm sure he'd seen the chicken dance.

[Waldo]

The best teams at the end don't just march to victory.

They struggle, find their identity, bolster it, and crush their opposition.

The dominant team rarely, if ever, wins it all.

[retailguy]

Every time I come to Packerrats lately I see nothing but pessimism and criticism. Wow, are people here - most of them - ever negative about the Packers. I've read numerous times now that Minnesota has more talent, that Minnesota has done a better job of building its defensive and offensive lines, that Percy Harvin is a star waiting to happen, that Thompson has failed to have enough veteran backup help, that he loves youth too much, that the GB offensive coaches suck, that the Packers will just slam the ball uselessly into the Williams wall, that the Packers will not even bother to run so the Vikes will tee off, and on and on and on and on.

We're three games into the season. Last year sucked, for sure. This year's team certainly appears to be a work in progress, and as always - for NFL teams - any major injuries can tear up a team.

To me, the jury is still out on this team, and consequently on the coaches and GM. If this team goes 8 -8 with no major injuries, then it may well be that either McCarthy has to go or that both McCarthy and Thompson have to go.

But for so many of you, the jury seems to be in: it's over, the season is lost, we're gonna get trashed by Minny, oh, oh, oh.

Buncha Eeyores out there.

I say wait and see. I say that the Pack can win on Monday night. I say that if the Packers show definite signs of improvement yet still lose a close game (and there are no major injuries), the season's not over yet, either. That won't be fatal.

Let's see how it plays out.

Fritz - I am certain that I would be one of those that you'd refer to as a "doom & gloomer". It is fair to say I'm frustrated. It's fair to say I'm not a fan of some positions on this team.

In my defense, I've been told for the last 3 years that the OL would be better. It isn't. I comment on that, then I'm told things like last week Barbre graded out as our best lineman. Yeah, ok. I've said all along that they play well one week, then the next they don't. That's not change, it's the same old thing in the 4th year...

I don't see change, I don't see improvement, I see anything but consistency. I haven't seen anything from this season that suggests our OL problems are behind us. Then someone posts that everyone is negative because of the Bengals game. Yes, that stunk, but did you watch the Bears game? Did you actually watch the Rams game? In spite of the victories, did the team do much to inspire your confidence that when they play someone of quality that they'll step up their game? Really?

Yeah, I know it was a win, and a win is a win, however, even those excited by the win, myself included, didn't see a dominant victory. We beat Chicago because Cutler melted down. We beat St. Louis because they are in the beginning of a rebuild and they aren't very good. Would we beat Chicago today? I'm not so sure. We'll see shortly.

I'm continuing to watch for things to improve. But the fact that I talk about what I see wrong doesn't make me negative. It's what I see. I don't see much good to talk about. I really admire the way Aaron Rodgers has played in spite of how his line has performed. I'm a big fan of the WR's. I think Finley could be great. I don't understand 3 fullbacks. I don't understand Kampman as a LB'er. I am hopeful that Matthews is the real deal. I like the DL, and worry about Raji staying healthy. I worry about the DL's lack of pressure. This defense needs that to be successful.

So label me however you want, Fritz, I'll keep showing up and like you, hoping for a Packer win. Even if you think I'm eeyore.

[MJZiggy]

RG, If we end this season with a winning record, I'm expecting you to buy the custard...I'm just sayin.

[retailguy]

RG, If we end this season with a winning record, I'm expecting you to buy the custard...I'm just sayin.

Happy to do that. Storheims is gone, so we'll hafta find another place, but I'd show up for that.

Maybe we can meet in old St Lou and go to Ted Drewe's? and if they don't end up with a winning record, then you're buying, and I'm taking some home too.

[pbmax]

In my defense, I've been told for the last 3 years that the OL would be better. It isn't. I comment on that, then I'm told things like last week Barbre graded out as our best lineman. Yeah, ok. I've said all along that they play well one week, then the next they don't. That's not change, it's the same old thing in the 4th year...
Barbre having the best game is just a footnote in his possible improvement. No one disagrees that the line has struggled. People were looking for the weak link to improve. He did for a week. Not we need Colledge and Spitz to hold up their end of the donkey.

I think many agree with you that line play has been a recurring problem. The only difference is cause and solution. I think the guys there can do it, especially of we can find an LT and put everyone else back in the proper place.

[MJZiggy]

RG, If we end this season with a winning record, I'm expecting you to buy the custard...I'm just sayin.

Happy to do that. Storheims is gone, so we'll hafta find another place, but I'd show up for that.

Maybe we can meet in old St Lou and go to Ted Drewe's? and if they don't end up with a winning record, then you're buying, and I'm taking some home too.

Storheim's? Gone? :cry:

http://www.teddrewes.com/Drewes.asp

I'd have to tack it onto the end of another trip. Do they have custard in Kentucky?

[retailguy]

In my defense, I've been told for the last 3 years that the OL would be better. It isn't. I comment on that, then I'm told things like last week Barbre graded out as our best lineman. Yeah, ok. I've said all along that they play well one week, then the next they don't. That's not change, it's the same old thing in the 4th year...
Barbre having the best game is just a footnote in his possible improvement. No one disagrees that the line has struggled. People were looking for the weak link to improve. He did for a week. Not we need Colledge and Spitz to hold up their end of the donkey.

I think many agree with you that line play has been a recurring problem. The only difference is cause and solution. I think the guys there can do it, especially of we can find an LT and put everyone else back in the proper place.

I'd like to know where we're going to find that LT in October. I thought the time to look for immediate help was in March, and the time to look for long-term help was in April. If Ted can find a "suitable" LT in October, well buddy, I'll be his biggest fan.

Personally, I think we've got what we've got, and THAT is what worries me.

[pbmax]

In my defense, I've been told for the last 3 years that the OL would be better. It isn't. I comment on that, then I'm told things like last week Barbre graded out as our best lineman. Yeah, ok. I've said all along that they play well one week, then the next they don't. That's not change, it's the same old thing in the 4th year...
Barbre having the best game is just a footnote in his possible improvement. No one disagrees that the line has struggled. People were looking for the weak link to improve. He did for a week. Not we need Colledge and Spitz to hold up their end of the donkey.

I think many agree with you that line play has been a recurring problem. The only difference is cause and solution. I think the guys there can do it, especially of we can find an LT and put everyone else back in the proper place.

I'd like to know where we're going to find that LT in October. I thought the time to look for immediate help was in March, and the time to look for long-term help was in April. If Ted can find a "suitable" LT in October, well buddy, I'll be his biggest fan.

Personally, I think we've got what we've got, and THAT is what worries me.
I would prefer Colledge slide back to Guard, so I am hoping its Clifton or if necessary, Levi Jones. But McCarthy doesn't seem to agree with me.

[retailguy]

RG, If we end this season with a winning record, I'm expecting you to buy the custard...I'm just sayin.

Happy to do that. Storheims is gone, so we'll hafta find another place, but I'd show up for that.

Maybe we can meet in old St Lou and go to Ted Drewe's? and if they don't end up with a winning record, then you're buying, and I'm taking some home too.

Storheim's? Gone? :cry:

http://www.teddrewes.com/Drewes.asp

I'd have to tack it onto the end of another trip. Do they have custard in Kentucky?

Store closing article reprinted from the Press Gazette.

http://ms-my.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=71544908504&topic=8103

Kentucky, I guess so, if you're going to Louisville:

http://www.manta.com/company/mmjgv79

http://www.menupix.com/louisville/restaurants/1703279/Twysters-Frozen-Custard-Louisville-KY

[Fritz]

Look, RG, I get the frustration. I do. The team so far has struggled in many areas, and after the preseason that's a bit of a surprise. In hindsight we ought to have seen that the preseason was not a good measure - all that vanilla game plan stuff while Dom was trying to install the defense and thus blitzing and whatnot. But that's hindsight. I got caught up in it all, too, and I'm not happy with the o-line play. But I think it'll get better.

This is year five of the Ted regime, and there was a crap year, a year of improvement, a stellar year, and a slide back. So last year weighs heavily, and for those of us who felt it was an anamoly in a climb toward success, this year's early struggles have not been so daunting as they have for you.

And if the Packer stay healthy but can do no better than 8-8, then it's time to question whether MM is the right coach and whether TT is the right GM. But why so bitter now? God, I didn't see this during the Sherman years and that guy never even got the Pack to the NFC championship game.

Nobody liked last year. But prior to that, it was a steady improvement. Can't you give it til the end of the year, or at least to the part of the year where it's clearly hopeless? Why are so many people writing this team off three games in? Three games in with a 2-1 record? Why?

[retailguy]

I would prefer Colledge slide back to Guard, so I am hoping its Clifton or if necessary, Levi Jones. But McCarthy doesn't seem to agree with me.

Well, we can't sign Levi Jones. He's old and washed up. Also, then we'd have to cut one of these young guys who have "great potential". We can't do that because then one of the other 31 teams will swipe him, just like Carolina swiped Sutton.

Just face it, we don't have room for all these old guys.

[retailguy]

Look, RG, I get the frustration. I do. The team so far has struggled in many areas, and after the preseason that's a bit of a surprise. In hindsight we ought to have seen that the preseason was not a good measure - all that vanilla game plan stuff while Dom was trying to install the defense and thus blitzing and whatnot. But that's hindsight. I got caught up in it all, too, and I'm not happy with the o-line play. But I think it'll get better.

This is year five of the Ted regime, and there was a crap year, a year of improvement, a stellar year, and a slide back. So last year weighs heavily, and for those of us who felt it was an anamoly in a climb toward success, this year's early struggles have not been so daunting as they have for you.

And if the Packer stay healthy but can do no better than 8-8, then it's time to question whether MM is the right coach and whether TT is the right GM. But why so bitter now? God, I didn't see this during the Sherman years and that guy never even got the Pack to the NFC championship game.

Nobody liked last year. But prior to that, it was a steady improvement. Can't you give it til the end of the year, or at least to the part of the year where it's clearly hopeless? Why are so many people writing this team off three games in? Three games in with a 2-1 record? Why?

Where did I say I've given up? I said I don't like what I've seen RIGHT NOW.

Can they improve? Sure. Will they? Don't know.

But the crap they trotted out the 1st three games really wasn't very good. We got two wins in spite of that. I'm grateful for those, and will watch to see if they get hot. Haven't seen that so far.

[Fritz]

I would prefer Colledge slide back to Guard, so I am hoping its Clifton or if necessary, Levi Jones. But McCarthy doesn't seem to agree with me.

Well, we can't sign Levi Jones. He's old and washed up. Also, then we'd have to cut one of these young guys who have "great potential". We can't do that because then one of the other 31 teams will swipe him, just like Carolina swiped Sutton.

Just face it, we don't have room for all these old guys.

This is the stuff I'm talking about. You're so bitter that...the Packers didn't keep Sutton?

That they didn't re-sign Mark Tauscher?

Man, what are you gonna do if this team gels and plays well? What's going to happen to your bitterness toward TT?

If the team sucks, what will you do? Wallow in your self-righteousness?

It's just all so strangely bizarre and surprising.

I keep saying - yes, if the team stays healthy and finishes badly, then it's time to think about canning MM. Maybe TT too. I won't apologize for the guy if this team stays healthy and plays badly. It means he didn't estimate the talent he put together correctly. Maybe he's not the guy.

But the organization has not stayed the course too long. It was 4-12, 8-8, then 13-3 before the slide back. It would've been foolish to shitcan the whole thing after last season. It would've been very Al Davis-like.

[retailguy]

This is the stuff I'm talking about. You're so bitter that...the Packers didn't keep Sutton?

Fritz, it was SARCASM. I thought Sutton was useless. I was illustrating that we're so protective of these young guys with "potential" that we sacrifice the present by not having adequate backup talent who can play NOW.





That they didn't re-sign Mark Tauscher?

Tauscher got hurt, it happens. The real crime is that we didn't find someone with experience to FILL IN while the young guys learned.




Man, what are you gonna do if this team gels and plays well? What's going to happen to your bitterness toward TT?

If the team sucks, what will you do? Wallow in your self-righteousness?

It's just all so strangely bizarre and surprising.

I admitted that I was wrong in 2007 and if I had to, I'd do it again. But, consistently, I've talked about the line since 2005, and quite frankly Fritz, I'm tired of talking about it, but I'm more tired waiting for it to change. It hasn't.

They'll probably play better towards the end of the year, again. But, so what?

I don't wallow in self righteousness. I'm just a fan. I will enjoy watching some of these fools here, explain it all away again. But I get no joy of any kind from Packer losses.




I keep saying - yes, if the team stays healthy and finishes badly, then it's time to think about canning MM. Maybe TT too. I won't apologize for the guy if this team stays healthy and plays badly. It means he didn't estimate the talent he put together correctly. Maybe he's not the guy.

So, what if the team "puts it together" and wins the last 5 games and finishes 7-9 or 8-8, and absolutely lights it up? Do you try again? Do you try it "just one more time?" Not an easy question.



But the organization has not stayed the course too long. It was 4-12, 8-8, then 13-3 before the slide back. It would've been foolish to shitcan the whole thing after last season. It would've been very Al Davis-like.

I think the "problems" in the front office are relatively minor. Quite honestly, if we had some talent, even back-up talent that could play now, especially on the lines, we'd be in better shape.

I think Ted's a great talent evaluator. I also think he "over estimates" young guys ability to play "sooner" rather than later. I think he "under values" the "career backup" player in the NFL.

We've got experienced starters and virtually "no experience" young guys. Not much in between. I think that is the problem.

I'm unsure about McCarthy. Maybe the blame is there? I don't know. Something is causing the teams to consistently start off slow. I don't pretend to know what that is.

Contrary to popular belief, I do not "hate" Ted Thompson. I think, for the most part, he's done a good job. But I see flaws. He is certainly not perfect. What worries me, is that he seems unwilling to address those weaknesses. We simply try the same thing again the next year.

[Pugger]

A lot of Packer fans are all resigned to the 'fact' that the Pack is gonna lose. If the queens continue to play like they have been and our offense gets out if its funk anything can happen. We all thought that Cincy game would be like the Ram game was last week but the Bengels were a tad better than we thought. Almost all of the 'experts' are picking the queens. Maybe on paper they are better, especially on their D line as opposed to our O line. But MN's O line is nothing to write home about. If Jenkins, Jolly, Raji and Kampy can get in the backfield and harrass His Highness BF will do what he almost always does in big games = throw the ball up for grabs and into the waiting arms of Al and Woody.

[Bretsky]

A lot of Packer fans are all resigned to the 'fact' that the Pack is gonna lose. If the queens continue to play like they have been and our offense gets out if its funk anything can happen. We all thought that Cincy game would be like the Ram game was last week but the Bengels were a tad better than we thought. Almost all of the 'experts' are picking the queens. Maybe on paper they are better, especially on their D line as opposed to our O line. But MN's O line is nothing to write home about. If Jenkins, Jolly, Raji and Kampy can get in the backfield and harrass His Highness BF will do what he almost always does in big games = throw the ball up for grabs and into the waiting arms of Al and Woody.


I think we'll win; just a gut feeling

[Rastak]

A lot of Packer fans are all resigned to the 'fact' that the Pack is gonna lose. If the queens continue to play like they have been and our offense gets out if its funk anything can happen. We all thought that Cincy game would be like the Ram game was last week but the Bengels were a tad better than we thought. Almost all of the 'experts' are picking the queens. Maybe on paper they are better, especially on their D line as opposed to our O line. But MN's O line is nothing to write home about. If Jenkins, Jolly, Raji and Kampy can get in the backfield and harrass His Highness BF will do what he almost always does in big games = throw the ball up for grabs and into the waiting arms of Al and Woody.


I think we'll win; just a gut feeling


My gut tells me the opposite. But I will say, the Vikings have not been consistent so anything can happen.

[MJZiggy]

That's why our guts are all confused.

[Cleft Crusty]

The Packers got it handed to them at Minnesota early in the 1996 season - at full strength. It happens. Losing in Minnesota might be painful to Packer fans (but not as painful as a colonoscopy, I can tell you), but it's long-term implications for the season are not that huge, barring injury. In Divisional play in the NFL, you have to hold serve. Winning on the road - especially against a good team that matches up well against you - is pure gravy.

[Fritz]

Cleft you are a wise guy, but I think given the near-panic permeating the press and the forum here (reflecting, I'm guessing, the general feeling in GB), if the Packers lose big and bad, it could have a long term effect.

[pbmax]

A thread about Doom and Gloom seems an appropriate place to mention that McGinn's atricle in Packers Insider (you have to pay; that's garbage and should go right in the can) with some interesting tidbits about the Departed last year. Seems he and M3 did not just have a pleasant chat.

The article covers the principals and the pressure they are under in this game. Thompson for youth, M3 for lack of progress since Giants playoff loss, Zygi for a stadium deal, Chilly for engineering Favreapoolza 2009 and being 1-5 versus the Packers. And Rodgers for not wanting to be swept under Favre again.

[Fritz]

By "departed" I take it you don't mean V-Bob, right?

And yes, I think the pressure on all of them is intense. I'm glad I'm not an NFL coach or GM.

I would like to have been a star wide receiver, however.