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mmmdk
10-05-2009, 10:16 PM
I know I'm in the minority, but this ref'd game has not bothered me. It may be a bit sway'd but teams overcome this

Many other things are bugging me, including getting our asses included up front.

I agree; have all night - have & will all year long.

When refs rule the Packers still drool. Nuff said. Sad truth & preseason over.

woodbuck27
10-05-2009, 10:16 PM
Rodgers just has 99 yards to go and get seriously injured. This game is over. Get him on the bench.

retailguy
10-05-2009, 10:17 PM
I know I'm in the minority, but this ref'd game has not bothered me. It may be a bit sway'd but teams overcome this

Many other things are bugging me, including getting our asses included up front.

refs are not the problem. our OL and our DL, now THAT is the problem

The DL has played fine if AP is only averaging like 3.0 ypc as someone posted. Rushing 3-4 passers on 3rd down against BF is a sure fire way to get burned. Coaching is the problem on D tonight.

disagree. you're entitled to your opinion.

Fosco33
10-05-2009, 10:17 PM
Rodgers just has 99 yards to go and get seriously injured. This game is over. Get him on the bench.

Not yet.

PackerTimer
10-05-2009, 10:17 PM
I know I'm in the minority, but this ref'd game has not bothered me. It may be a bit sway'd but teams overcome this

Many other things are bugging me, including getting our asses included up front.

refs are not the problem. our OL and our DL, now THAT is the problem

The DL has played fine if AP is only averaging like 3.0 ypc as someone posted. Rushing 3-4 passers on 3rd down against BF is a sure fire way to get burned. Coaching is the problem on D tonight.

Wow. I actually agree with you. They haven't really brought pressure on third down at all. Although you still have to win your individual battles and they aren't.

pbmax
10-05-2009, 10:17 PM
Rodgers just has 99 yards to go and get seriously injured. This game is over. Get him on the bench.
There are 9 minutes left Woodie, what are you talking about?

Partial
10-05-2009, 10:18 PM
I know I'm in the minority, but this ref'd game has not bothered me. It may be a bit sway'd but teams overcome this

Many other things are bugging me, including getting our asses included up front.

refs are not the problem. our OL and our DL, now THAT is the problem

The DL has played fine if AP is only averaging like 3.0 ypc as someone posted. Rushing 3-4 passers on 3rd down against BF is a sure fire way to get burned. Coaching is the problem on D tonight.

disagree. you're entitled to your opinion.

Why do you feel this way? They kept the games best player in tact. They rushed 3-4 rushers most of the time on passing plays. They got ZERO pressure. What happened to the attacking attitude?

pbmax
10-05-2009, 10:18 PM
I know I'm in the minority, but this ref'd game has not bothered me. It may be a bit sway'd but teams overcome this

Many other things are bugging me, including getting our asses included up front.

refs are not the problem. our OL and our DL, now THAT is the problem

The DL has played fine if AP is only averaging like 3.0 ypc as someone posted. Rushing 3-4 passers on 3rd down against BF is a sure fire way to get burned. Coaching is the problem on D tonight.

disagree. you're entitled to your opinion.
Pressure in a 3-4 must come from OLBs first. That is DL for all intents and purposes in a 3-4 on a passing down. Or a 2-4-5 for that matter.

MOBB DEEP
10-05-2009, 10:19 PM
winfield is god

Badgerinmaine
10-05-2009, 10:19 PM
Rodgers just has 99 yards to go and get seriously injured. This game is over. Get him on the bench.
I'm not throwing in the towel, and neither will he.

mmmdk
10-05-2009, 10:19 PM
I know I'm in the minority, but this ref'd game has not bothered me. It may be a bit sway'd but teams overcome this

Many other things are bugging me, including getting our asses included up front.

refs are not the problem. our OL and our DL, now THAT is the problem

The DL has played fine if AP is only averaging like 3.0 ypc as someone posted. Rushing 3-4 passers on 3rd down against BF is a sure fire way to get burned. Coaching is the problem on D tonight.

Basically the same D (personel) as last year. Still sucks. DL sucks; teams pass too.

MichiganPackerFan
10-05-2009, 10:19 PM
what happened to the quick passes and screen we started out with?

retailguy
10-05-2009, 10:19 PM
I know I'm in the minority, but this ref'd game has not bothered me. It may be a bit sway'd but teams overcome this

Many other things are bugging me, including getting our asses included up front.

refs are not the problem. our OL and our DL, now THAT is the problem

The DL has played fine if AP is only averaging like 3.0 ypc as someone posted. Rushing 3-4 passers on 3rd down against BF is a sure fire way to get burned. Coaching is the problem on D tonight.

disagree. you're entitled to your opinion.

Why do you feel this way? They kept the games best player in tact. They rushed 3-4 rushers most of the time on passing plays. They got ZERO pressure. What happened to the attacking attitude?

It is simple Partial. They have to get pressure to be effective. Yes, they have to stop the run, but NOT at the expense of getting pressure.

they have gotten NO pressure all year. its basic football. I played it. I understand it.

Jimx29
10-05-2009, 10:19 PM
LOL...... what a predictable ending

Partial
10-05-2009, 10:19 PM
Is that 5 sacks for Allen tonight? 2 forced fumbles/ Wow.

Bossman641
10-05-2009, 10:19 PM
He wasn't down?

MOBB DEEP
10-05-2009, 10:19 PM
TOTALLY out classed

Fosco33
10-05-2009, 10:20 PM
can ground cause fumble?

Gunakor
10-05-2009, 10:20 PM
I don't know if he got out of the EZ or not, but that definitely wasn't a fumble. He was on the ground.

Badgerinmaine
10-05-2009, 10:20 PM
he was down!

mmmdk
10-05-2009, 10:20 PM
what happened to the quick passes and screen we started out with?

Baffled!

WRs??? Have they been covered all night...with that kind of heat?

Bretsky
10-05-2009, 10:20 PM
If Bart Starr was our coach Lynn Dickey would play action pass on a bomb on first down here
Would it work or be INT? Before my time.

Yes, it often worked; he'd throw a bomb to Loften.

Lynn Dickey was the best Long Ball QB I've ever seen in Green Bay

Packers offense was unbelievable back then in the prime; but our defense was twice as bad as our offense was good.

Best regular season game I've ever seen was the 48-47 victory when the Redskin Straight on Kicker (think his name was Mark Mosely) missed a field goal on the last play of the game

red
10-05-2009, 10:21 PM
sorry guys

game over, season over

vikings are on a whole different level then we are

Jimx29
10-05-2009, 10:21 PM
challenge to give them a safety

Partial
10-05-2009, 10:21 PM
I know I'm in the minority, but this ref'd game has not bothered me. It may be a bit sway'd but teams overcome this

Many other things are bugging me, including getting our asses included up front.

refs are not the problem. our OL and our DL, now THAT is the problem

The DL has played fine if AP is only averaging like 3.0 ypc as someone posted. Rushing 3-4 passers on 3rd down against BF is a sure fire way to get burned. Coaching is the problem on D tonight.

disagree. you're entitled to your opinion.

Why do you feel this way? They kept the games best player in tact. They rushed 3-4 rushers most of the time on passing plays. They got ZERO pressure. What happened to the attacking attitude?

It is simple Partial. They have to get pressure to be effective. Yes, they have to stop the run, but NOT at the expense of getting pressure.

they have gotten NO pressure all year. its basic football. I played it. I understand it.

They got a lot of pressure in Chicago.

You don't have to worry about stopping the run on passing plays.

How many third and longs have they converted? We have stopped the run on first and second. On third and long, you need to send some heat. Sending 3 guys is completely unacceptable. That is worse than Vanilla Bob.

Agree to disagree I guess, but the problem is the pass rush and the lack of rushers being sent.

retailguy
10-05-2009, 10:21 PM
I know I'm in the minority, but this ref'd game has not bothered me. It may be a bit sway'd but teams overcome this

Many other things are bugging me, including getting our asses included up front.

refs are not the problem. our OL and our DL, now THAT is the problem

The DL has played fine if AP is only averaging like 3.0 ypc as someone posted. Rushing 3-4 passers on 3rd down against BF is a sure fire way to get burned. Coaching is the problem on D tonight.

disagree. you're entitled to your opinion.
Pressure in a 3-4 must come from OLBs first. That is DL for all intents and purposes in a 3-4 on a passing down. Or a 2-4-5 for that matter.

No. Not when you have LB's in coverage. You have got to get pressure with the front. these guys are getting pushed back.

stopping the run. yes. pressure, no.

Sparkey
10-05-2009, 10:21 PM
Challenged and the ruling will be a safety.

Bretsky
10-05-2009, 10:21 PM
LOL

what else?



DID YOU HAVE TO ASK ?
THAT PLAY IS ON YOU ! :lol:

Brando19
10-05-2009, 10:21 PM
Wow....if you'll excuse me...i'm going to go throw up now.

PackerTimer
10-05-2009, 10:21 PM
Well he was down but I guess it doesn't matter.

Fosco33
10-05-2009, 10:22 PM
embarrassing to be on oline on this team. we play w/ 3rd stringers and max protect and can't do shit

MichiganPackerFan
10-05-2009, 10:22 PM
sorry guys

game over, season over

vikings are on a whole different level then we are

games are won on the line and we don't have one

woodbuck27
10-05-2009, 10:22 PM
OK on that fumble it`s lights out Packers. The Vikings just dominated this game on both sides of the ball.

Ohh. . . MM challenges again. No one does it more.

Just get it over with MM before you lose your QB.

Looks like a safety on that supposed fumble. AR`s knee was down.

Fosco33
10-05-2009, 10:22 PM
safety

Sparkey
10-05-2009, 10:22 PM
sorry guys

game over, season over

vikings are on a whole different level then we are

2 - 2 is not a season.

mmmdk
10-05-2009, 10:22 PM
he was down!

Safety!

Safety dance!

Goodnight, it's 5:21 am

Hope we beat Lions in 2 weeks...one of few W this season??

Partial
10-05-2009, 10:22 PM
This is a worse beating than I thought. We've scored one TD offensively. Horrible.

The Vikes have dominated every element of the game.

MOBB DEEP
10-05-2009, 10:22 PM
vikings are on a whole different level then we are

BOOM

pbmax
10-05-2009, 10:23 PM
I know I'm in the minority, but this ref'd game has not bothered me. It may be a bit sway'd but teams overcome this

Many other things are bugging me, including getting our asses included up front.

refs are not the problem. our OL and our DL, now THAT is the problem

The DL has played fine if AP is only averaging like 3.0 ypc as someone posted. Rushing 3-4 passers on 3rd down against BF is a sure fire way to get burned. Coaching is the problem on D tonight.

disagree. you're entitled to your opinion.
Pressure in a 3-4 must come from OLBs first. That is DL for all intents and purposes in a 3-4 on a passing down. Or a 2-4-5 for that matter.

No. Not when you have LB's in coverage. You have got to get pressure with the front. these guys are getting pushed back.

stopping the run. yes. pressure, no.
In a 3-4, the OLBs ARE your ends. Especially in the 2-4-5 nickel we play. We are talking about the same players (Kampman and Matthews or Poppinga) just calling them different positions.

red
10-05-2009, 10:23 PM
LOL

what else?



DID YOU HAVE TO ASK ?
THAT PLAY IS ON YOU ! :lol:

i guess

theres enough blame to go around for this one

i guess i can take some

Brando19
10-05-2009, 10:23 PM
Oh shit....safety comin here.

Called it.

Bretsky
10-05-2009, 10:23 PM
sorry guys

game over, season over

vikings are on a whole different level then we are


one game

Fosco33
10-05-2009, 10:23 PM
I'm all for supporting a cause but this pink stuff is too much

Sparkey
10-05-2009, 10:23 PM
This is a worse beating than I thought. We've scored one TD offensively. Horrible.

The Vikes have dominated every element of the game.

This reminds me of some of the beat downs Favre's Packers got in Minnesota on a regular basis in the early 90's.

Jimx29
10-05-2009, 10:23 PM
Most importantly...will the TT dick suckers admit to his failures yet?

Bossman641
10-05-2009, 10:23 PM
Am I the only one who thinks Grant has looked pretty good tonight? Just wish he has more chances :beat:

mmmdk
10-05-2009, 10:24 PM
Put Flynn in...uhm...Vikings ball!

Partial
10-05-2009, 10:24 PM
Why are we out of challenge if we won?

Did they do that just to avoid giving Favre another TD pass? 4 TD passes would look really bad.

Stupid challenge imo. Gave them point (though they probably would have gotten them either way).

Brohm
10-05-2009, 10:25 PM
Forget the Farve thing. He'd be dead with this line. I'd fire TT for his debacle with the O-line...and possibly ruining his bling QB on top of it due to said failure. Fire MM for dumbness, undisciplined teams, not hiring proper coaches to coach what you got. Shit blow up this lethargy and start over.

MOBB DEEP
10-05-2009, 10:25 PM
frickn vikes laughn and hamming it up! thompson is a joke!



j/k

mmmdk
10-05-2009, 10:25 PM
Most importantly...will the TT dick suckers admit to his failures yet?

Not Clay :lol: Or Chuck Or Rodgers

pbmax
10-05-2009, 10:25 PM
In a 3-4, the OLBs ARE your ends. Especially in the 2-4-5 nickel we play. We are talking about the same players (Kampman and Matthews or Poppinga) just calling them different positions.
In a passing down, that is. One OLB is the fourth D lineman. or in the 2-4-5, 2 OLBs are the DEs.

Gunakor
10-05-2009, 10:25 PM
Most importantly...will the TT dick suckers admit to his failures yet?

If Aaron Rodgers doesn't perform like a franchise quarterback for the Green Bay Packers over the next decade, certainly. The decision to move on wasn't about tonight.

Jimx29
10-05-2009, 10:25 PM
Am I the only one who thinks Grant has looked pretty good tonight? Just wish he has more chances :beat:you first need a coach that has more than a 1st graders imagination in play calling

retailguy
10-05-2009, 10:25 PM
In a 3-4, the OLBs ARE your ends. Especially in the 2-4-5 nickel we play. We are talking about the same players (Kampman and Matthews or Poppinga) just calling them different positions.

Yes. I agree with that. But, when you put the LB's in coverage, you either have to rely on the front to generate pressure, OR blitz the secondary. they didn't blitz the secondary. They rely on the front to generate pressure or at least hold the line, and they CANNOT.

This D does not work without pressure. and there is NONE.

Partial
10-05-2009, 10:25 PM
Favre wants another one. I'm telling you he is gonna try to throw another TD.

Favre is unafraid to step on the throat.

Gruden is right. Why is Caper's not adjusting like he said he would and putting Kampman's hand on the ground? He sucks rushing from the upright position.

Fosco33
10-05-2009, 10:25 PM
i guess that's good?

7 sacks

career high for allen

19 on the year.

a few years ago favre had like 10 all year.

sacks are worse than holdin calls - drive killers

MichiganPackerFan
10-05-2009, 10:25 PM
i say some late hard hits on favre would make up for the lack of calls against MIN

woodbuck27
10-05-2009, 10:25 PM
If the Vikings go on to win. Favre will have defeated (as QB) every team in the NFL. The first QB in NFL history to do so.

By the way. No QB has ever won an NFL playoff game as old as Favre will be if the Vikings do so this season.

red
10-05-2009, 10:25 PM
sorry guys

game over, season over

vikings are on a whole different level then we are


one game

i don't think we have the gm, coach, players, brains, or heart to do anything this season

and i'm really getting sick of m3's teams looking like gutless heartless pussies

MOBB DEEP
10-05-2009, 10:26 PM
Most importantly...will the TT dick suckers admit to his failures yet?

:roll:

Fosco33
10-05-2009, 10:26 PM
except for corraling AP - the D scheme hasnt worked tonight - no pressure

Bretsky
10-05-2009, 10:26 PM
Am I the only one who thinks Grant has looked pretty good tonight? Just wish he has more chances :beat:


You might be; he's had a few nice plays but looks very ordinary to me.

I was once on board with him as a legit #1 RB but I've flipped and think he's the perfect complimentary back.

Brando19
10-05-2009, 10:26 PM
Favre wants another one. I'm telling you he is gonna try to throw another TD.

Favre is unafraid to step on the throat.

Gruden is right. Why is Caper's not adjusting like he said he would and putting Kampman's hand on the ground? He sucks rushing from the upright position.

Why wouldn't he? It's easy as hell.

PackerTimer
10-05-2009, 10:27 PM
Favre wants another one. I'm telling you he is gonna try to throw another TD.

Favre is unafraid to step on the throat.

Gruden is right. Why is Caper's not adjusting like he said he would and putting Kampman's hand on the ground? He sucks rushing from the upright position.

I think they'll probably run run run run.

Brohm
10-05-2009, 10:27 PM
sorry guys

game over, season over

vikings are on a whole different level then we are


one game

i don't think we have the gm, coach, players, brains, or heart to do anything this season

and i'm really getting sick of m3's teams looking like gutless heartless pussies

Yep

Badgerinmaine
10-05-2009, 10:27 PM
Why are we out of challenge if we won?

Did they do that just to avoid giving Favre another TD pass? 4 TD passes would look really bad.

Stupid challenge imo. Gave them point (though they probably would have gotten them either way).
1. You have to win both challenges to get a third. Pack lost the first one.
2. Not a dumb challenge at all. Keeps it a two-poss. game. Even a sure FG would have made it 3.

pbmax
10-05-2009, 10:28 PM
In a 3-4, the OLBs ARE your ends. Especially in the 2-4-5 nickel we play. We are talking about the same players (Kampman and Matthews or Poppinga) just calling them different positions.

Yes. I agree with that. But, when you put the LB's in coverage, you either have to rely on the front to generate pressure, OR blitz the secondary. they didn't blitz the secondary. They rely on the front to generate pressure or at least hold the line, and they CANNOT.

This D does not work without pressure. and there is NONE.
Yes, very true. It will be interesting to see what the breakdown is with McGinn on what defenses were called and what kind of pressure he sent over the game.

Brohm
10-05-2009, 10:28 PM
We shart at home against Cinci (not a bad team though). HEartless attempt. And stink up the joint in all facets on MNF...again.

Partial
10-05-2009, 10:28 PM
Okay that is a good point. Didn't know about the two challenges and didn't think about the score.

Bretsky
10-05-2009, 10:28 PM
need a stop; that safety was a great challenge and gives us a shot for OT

Bossman641
10-05-2009, 10:28 PM
Am I the only one who thinks Grant has looked pretty good tonight? Just wish he has more chances :beat:


You might be; he's had a few nice plays but looks very ordinary to me.

I was once on board with him as a legit #1 RB but I've flipped and think he's the perfect complimentary back.

Don't get me wrong. He hasn't looked all world or anything. But he's made a few guys miss and has set up the screen well.

Iron Mike
10-05-2009, 10:29 PM
Alright, why is there no "Fire Campen Now" thread yet??? :roll:

Bretsky
10-05-2009, 10:29 PM
my wife is so frustrated she's doing the laundry right now

PackerTimer
10-05-2009, 10:29 PM
Come on guys the sky isn't falling here yet. Take the bye week to get healthy and hope we can straighten some things out. Most importantly O-Line and D-Line need to do a lot of work.

Brohm
10-05-2009, 10:29 PM
Wow....total cornholing tonight.

pbmax
10-05-2009, 10:29 PM
except for corraling AP - the D scheme hasnt worked tonight - no pressure
Well, that is a pretty big win. The problem is that the other half of the O battle was a gut wrenching decimation.

Partial
10-05-2009, 10:29 PM
"...more like one in a million..."

"So you're telling me theres a chance!"

Bretsky
10-05-2009, 10:29 PM
Alright, why is there no "Fire Campen Now" thread yet??? :roll:


Perhaps because we have limited talent there to work with

red
10-05-2009, 10:29 PM
Alright, why is there no "Fire Campen Now" thread yet??? :roll:

i think theres a few around here somewhere

Brando19
10-05-2009, 10:30 PM
my wife is so frustrated she's doing the laundry right now

:lol: Maybe you need to replay this game over and over.

MichiganPackerFan
10-05-2009, 10:30 PM
my wife is so frustrated she's doing the laundry right now

would you kindly ask if she'd throw a few things in for me too? I've worked too much lately to have time :lol:

pbmax
10-05-2009, 10:30 PM
my wife is so frustrated she's doing the laundry right now
Is she beating it with rocks like I am? :lol:

retailguy
10-05-2009, 10:30 PM
grant still trying. about the only one.

Badgerinmaine
10-05-2009, 10:30 PM
Come on guys the sky isn't falling here yet. Take the bye week to get healthy and hope we can straighten some things out. Most importantly O-Line and D-Line need to do a lot of work.
I want to think this way...maybe in the morning, I will.

Brohm
10-05-2009, 10:30 PM
Come on guys the sky isn't falling here yet. Take the bye week to get healthy and hope we can straighten some things out. Most importantly O-Line and D-Line need to do a lot of work.

Need players for the O-line to be able to do some work. TT would have to seriously go against the grain for that. Maybe desparation will do that. But reality is, should never have gotten to this point.

Partial
10-05-2009, 10:30 PM
Wasn't Grant's last long TD run last year against the Vikes in week 1? I cannot remember one since.

ThunderDan
10-05-2009, 10:31 PM
Without the turnovers and the dropped pass in the endzone, its a whoever has the ball last game.

retailguy
10-05-2009, 10:31 PM
except for corraling AP - the D scheme hasnt worked tonight - no pressure
Well, that is a pretty big win. The problem is that the other half of the O battle was a gut wrenching decimation.

yes, huge win. but the rest of it? not so much.

Bretsky
10-05-2009, 10:31 PM
my wife is so frustrated she's doing the laundry right now

would you kindly ask if she'd throw a few things in for me too? I've worked too much lately to have time :lol:


no way dude; if I'm renting her I'm asking for BIG BUCKS !!

woodbuck27
10-05-2009, 10:31 PM
Most importantly...will the TT dick suckers admit to his failures yet?

:roll:

They`ll play off this game as not all that important. :D The big game coming with Vikings at Lambeau. We have a long ways to go to compete with the Vikings. We need an OL and a defense.

We need a running game.

Bossman641
10-05-2009, 10:31 PM
Wasn't Grant's last long TD run last year against the Vikes in week 1? I cannot remember one since.

Week 1 last year? He busted a long one but didn't score.

Brando19
10-05-2009, 10:31 PM
Why do we always move the fucking ball at the end of the game? Why?

Partial
10-05-2009, 10:32 PM
Without the turnovers and the dropped pass in the endzone, its a whoever has the ball last game.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Really?

Brohm
10-05-2009, 10:32 PM
Shit was ugly from the start but really down hill with that 4th down dropped TD in the gullet

Badgerinmaine
10-05-2009, 10:32 PM
my wife is so frustrated she's doing the laundry right now
Send her to the Metrodome. The refs have left laundry all over the field there tonight... :lol:

retailguy
10-05-2009, 10:32 PM
Why do we always move the fucking ball at the end of the game? Why?

the defensive scheme. they are letting them move the ball.

Bretsky
10-05-2009, 10:32 PM
Gruden REALLY adds to this MNF cast

Best guy they've haad in years

ThunderDan
10-05-2009, 10:33 PM
Without the turnovers and the dropped pass in the endzone, its a whoever has the ball last game.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Really?

Yeah, that's 10-13 points right there.

retailguy
10-05-2009, 10:33 PM
my wife is so frustrated she's doing the laundry right now

would you kindly ask if she'd throw a few things in for me too? I've worked too much lately to have time :lol:


no way dude; if I'm renting her I'm asking for BIG BUCKS !!

pretty sure he wasn't interested in renting. i think he wanted it for free.

Fosco33
10-05-2009, 10:33 PM
most sacks allowed - gb w/ 19.

16 qbs have 7 or less

http://www.hostpic.biz/uploads/fae69a577d.jpg (http://www.hostpic.biz)

Bretsky
10-05-2009, 10:33 PM
HUGE HUGE PLAY

crosbiegrad
10-05-2009, 10:33 PM
Jordy has had a decent game

Partial
10-05-2009, 10:33 PM
Garbage time TD... let's hope they have some magic here. Atta boy Jordy. Hopefully not too little too late.

Sparkey
10-05-2009, 10:33 PM
FUCK them Vikings get the two pointer!

PackerTimer
10-05-2009, 10:33 PM
Come on guys the sky isn't falling here yet. Take the bye week to get healthy and hope we can straighten some things out. Most importantly O-Line and D-Line need to do a lot of work.

Need players for the O-line to be able to do some work. TT would have to seriously go against the grain for that. Maybe desparation will do that. But reality is, should never have gotten to this point.

If we get Clifton back things might get better. I haven't heard Barbre's name called nearly as much the last few weeks.

It might help to get Colledge back inside assuming he's not hurt too badly.

Maybe I'm just an eternal optimist.

Fosco33
10-05-2009, 10:33 PM
love playing prevent

pbmax
10-05-2009, 10:33 PM
Here comes hope again. Pass to Finley for the 2?

Bretsky
10-05-2009, 10:34 PM
Great play by AROD

MichiganPackerFan
10-05-2009, 10:34 PM
Gruden REALLY adds to this MNF cast

Best guy they've haad in years

totally agree

mission
10-05-2009, 10:34 PM
Gruden REALLY adds to this MNF cast

Best guy they've haad in years

I agree but Jaworski gotta go!

Partial
10-05-2009, 10:34 PM
Great play by AROD

Yep. It was a very good pass.

woodbuck27
10-05-2009, 10:34 PM
Aaron Rodgers is tough. Nothing wrong with our passing game despite a sucky OL.

Bretsky
10-05-2009, 10:34 PM
Man, do you think about running here ?

QB draw ?

Partial
10-05-2009, 10:35 PM
No, I think you throw to Nelson or Driver.

Freak Out
10-05-2009, 10:35 PM
Kia!!!

Guiness
10-05-2009, 10:35 PM
Why do we always move the fucking ball at the end of the game? Why?

the defensive scheme. they are letting them move the ball.


PReeeeeeeevent

Makes the Pack's line look good, but does it matter at this point?

PackerTimer
10-05-2009, 10:35 PM
Well that might officially be the game.

Bretsky
10-05-2009, 10:35 PM
dagger

Partial
10-05-2009, 10:36 PM
Well, onside kick and see what happens. Prepare for glory.

Brohm
10-05-2009, 10:36 PM
71 flat on his ass again.

retailguy
10-05-2009, 10:36 PM
Why do we always move the fucking ball at the end of the game? Why?

the defensive scheme. they are letting them move the ball.


PReeeeeeeevent

Makes the Pack's line look good, but does it matter at this point?

no not at all. unless you have rodgers & nelson in your fantasy league.

Fosco33
10-05-2009, 10:36 PM
What was that

Brando19
10-05-2009, 10:36 PM
dagger

Yeah...in the 3rd quarter.

retailguy
10-05-2009, 10:36 PM
What was that

a desperation shovel pass

Badgerinmaine
10-05-2009, 10:36 PM
Gruden REALLY adds to this MNF cast

Best guy they've had in years
he had the line of the night just now: "They're gonna spread 'em wide open and take their chances". :shock:
Sounds like a Garbage Can thread. :-)

Freak Out
10-05-2009, 10:37 PM
How many sacks for the Vikes tonight? 7?

Badgerinmaine
10-05-2009, 10:37 PM
What was that
He had to get rid of it--nothing to lose at that point.

Bossman641
10-05-2009, 10:37 PM
Crosby hits some real nice onside kicks

retailguy
10-05-2009, 10:37 PM
How many sacks for the Vikes tonight? 7?

yup

Fosco33
10-05-2009, 10:38 PM
Just need to point to the Superbowl scoreboard

Jimx29
10-05-2009, 10:38 PM
What was that

a desperation shovel pass*bites tongue about not being Favre*

woodbuck27
10-05-2009, 10:38 PM
Solid night for AR. 316 yards and 2 TD`s and the Packers had their best chance with him. The rest.

UCH!!

retailguy
10-05-2009, 10:38 PM
What was that

a desperation shovel pass*bites tongue about not being Favre*

LOL

denverYooper
10-05-2009, 10:38 PM
Why do we always move the fucking ball at the end of the game? Why?

We moved the ball quite a bit all game. Turnovers killed us.

Bossman641
10-05-2009, 10:39 PM
What was that

a desperation shovel pass*bites tongue about not being Favre*

*Bites tongue about you being a pathetic packer fan

Partial
10-05-2009, 10:39 PM
This team stinks. Their window has officially closed imo.

pbmax
10-05-2009, 10:40 PM
Hoo boy. Going to be an ugly 2 weeks on the Internets. :lol:

MichiganPackerFan
10-05-2009, 10:40 PM
Why do we always move the fucking ball at the end of the game? Why?

We moved the ball quite a bit all game. Turnovers killed us.

And one penalty against MIN which was on a two point try,.

Badgerinmaine
10-05-2009, 10:40 PM
Why do we always move the fucking ball at the end of the game? Why?

We moved the ball quite a bit all game. Turnovers killed us.
Penalties, too. Way too many damned penalties.

Brohm
10-05-2009, 10:40 PM
Why do we always move the fucking ball at the end of the game? Why?

We moved the ball quite a bit all game. Turnovers killed us.

Not so much really. I would say the dropped TD in the endzone and the pathetic joke of a cripplefarm, I mean OL was the problem. And no pass rush whatsofucking ever, WTF Dom.

Freak Out
10-05-2009, 10:40 PM
Wow......

Badgerinmaine
10-05-2009, 10:40 PM
This team stinks. Their window has officially closed imo.
They're 2-2 with 12 games to play! Lot of season left. Come on, now.

Partial
10-05-2009, 10:41 PM
Favre wanted it. Called that one. Close too. He was incredible tonight. I think if you switch the QBs it's a much closer game.

Brohm
10-05-2009, 10:41 PM
AND THE SUCK CONTINUES

MichiganPackerFan
10-05-2009, 10:41 PM
50 yard bomb to run up the score - i haven't said this before, but that was classless by favre

pbmax
10-05-2009, 10:41 PM
Well, Jared Allen won't get that kind of jump on Levi Jones at Lambeau in a few weeks. :lol:

Badgerinmaine
10-05-2009, 10:41 PM
Favre wanted it. Called that one. Close too. He was incredible tonight. I think if you switch the QBs it's a much closer game.
Disagree. Now, if we switch lines, I'll listen. :-)

Fosco33
10-05-2009, 10:41 PM
Sacks by other notable QBs:

Matt Ryan - 2
Manning(s) - 2
Leftwich - 2
Brees - 4
Flacco - 5
Orton - 6
Warner - 7
Schaub, Campbell, Cutler, Romo, Russell - 8
Sanchez, Palmer, Favre - 9

Partial
10-05-2009, 10:41 PM
50 yard bomb to run up the score - i haven't said this before, but that was classless by favre

Yep, but retribution is rarely a classy thing.

Guiness
10-05-2009, 10:41 PM
wow. Just when you thought it had all happened!

Bretsky
10-05-2009, 10:42 PM
This team stinks. Their window has officially closed imo.


what window ? Do we have aging veterans on this team ?

Fosco33
10-05-2009, 10:42 PM
50 yard bomb to run up the score - i haven't said this before, but that was classless by favre

Yeah, wonder if that was designed. Hope it bites him in the ass. Or in Lambeau with a different def scheme and home noise.

Partial
10-05-2009, 10:42 PM
Did they have 6 OL in on that play? It looked like they did.

ThunderDan
10-05-2009, 10:42 PM
We are at 398 yards of total offense for the game.

Sparkey
10-05-2009, 10:42 PM
DD one catch away from receiving record

Freak Out
10-05-2009, 10:42 PM
Redemption song!

Fosco33
10-05-2009, 10:42 PM
What was that... a throwaway?

Partial
10-05-2009, 10:43 PM
We are at 398 yards of total offense for the game.

That is why stats do not tell the entire story. This was a horrible offensive performance through and through.

Bossman641
10-05-2009, 10:43 PM
This team stinks. Their window has officially closed imo.
They're 2-2 with 12 games to play! Lot of season left. Come on, now.

I agree. It's not how you start it's how you finish. This team still has a lot they can build off. I won't even try to defend the pass D tonight, but there's no way I give up.

How many years did we start off 1-3 or 2-4 and come on at the end.

PackerTimer
10-05-2009, 10:43 PM
Favre wanted it. Called that one. Close too. He was incredible tonight. I think if you switch the QBs it's a much closer game.

I've tried to get away from this but just shut the hell up already. You are so wrong. I have no idea if you just don't see it or if you are just being an pain in the ass.

Brohm
10-05-2009, 10:43 PM
Favre wanted it. Called that one. Close too. He was incredible tonight. I think if you switch the QBs it's a much closer game.

If we switch QBs, Farve is out for the season somewhere mid second quarter of the Cinci game. The OL is a serious problem and THAT is what TT should be railed on.

MJZiggy
10-05-2009, 10:43 PM
Hoo boy. Going to be an ugly 2 weeks on the Internets. :lol:

No, it'll be quiet because a lot of folks won't be here.

Why is it they put in the 3rd string LT and suddenly Rodgers has a little more breathing room?

steve823
10-05-2009, 10:43 PM
Donald Lee's dropped killed us..if he caught that its a one score game and its a COMPLETELY different ball game.

Oh well, overall it was a good game, and as the announcer said tough luck with all the injuries on the O-line. It also showed us what we have to work on in the future.

pbmax
10-05-2009, 10:43 PM
Favre wanted it. Called that one. Close too. He was incredible tonight. I think if you switch the QBs it's a much closer game.
How much have you been drinking?

Time available in the pocket has been completely on Favre's side. Do you think he has the same kind of game with half the time?

woodbuck27
10-05-2009, 10:43 PM
By the way the Packers ST`s looks bad overall. 2 punts for a 30 yard average is one example.

Bretsky
10-05-2009, 10:43 PM
TE screen to Donald Lee ?

WTF

retailguy
10-05-2009, 10:44 PM
Hoo boy. Going to be an ugly 2 weeks on the Internets. :lol:

No, it'll be quiet because a lot of folks won't be here.

Why is it they put in the 3rd string LT and suddenly Rodgers has a little more breathing room?

prevent defense. nothing to do with Lang.

Fosco33
10-05-2009, 10:44 PM
Hoo boy. Going to be an ugly 2 weeks on the Internets. :lol:

No, it'll be quiet because a lot of folks won't be here.

Why is it they put in the 3rd string LT and suddenly Rodgers has a little more breathing room?

Same here - travelling and having fun.

MichiganPackerFan
10-05-2009, 10:44 PM
i think next time AR is being chased he should go grade school and just drill it into the DL's nuts.

Freak Out
10-05-2009, 10:44 PM
Come on baby!

Fosco33
10-05-2009, 10:44 PM
Love the prevent

Bossman641
10-05-2009, 10:44 PM
Favre wanted it. Called that one. Close too. He was incredible tonight. I think if you switch the OLs it's a completely different game.

There we go

pbmax
10-05-2009, 10:44 PM
Did I mention today I learned why the U-71 was called the U-71 and not the Big Fat Butt-71?

Partial
10-05-2009, 10:44 PM
Completely agree about the time. Rodgers hasn't had much on some plays, and on others he has had a substantial amount and held onto the ball for a drive killing sack. Favre gets rid of the ball very quick and doesn't take a lot of sacks historically.

Just my opinion.

That said, this game isn't over yet. I would get in FG position and kick it.

PackerTimer
10-05-2009, 10:45 PM
i think next time AR is being chased he should go grade school and just drill it into the DL's nuts.

hahahahahahhaha. I needed that. Thanks.

Partial
10-05-2009, 10:45 PM
Favre wanted it. Called that one. Close too. He was incredible tonight. I think if you switch the OLs it's a completely different game.

There we go

If you switch the OLs we dominate them. Favre has all day and is picking them apart.

Badgerinmaine
10-05-2009, 10:45 PM
Someone years ago said "The only thing the prevent defense prevents is winning". 8-)

crosbiegrad
10-05-2009, 10:45 PM
i think next time AR is being chased he should go grade school and just drill it into the DL's nuts.

I'd like to see that, a QB trying to hurt Allen for a nice change

Fosco33
10-05-2009, 10:45 PM
I need another beer.

Sparkey
10-05-2009, 10:45 PM
i think next time AR is being chased he should go grade school and just drill it into the DL's nuts.

hahahahahahhaha. I needed that. Thanks.

I would piss my pants too see that!

woodbuck27
10-05-2009, 10:46 PM
Favre wanted it. Called that one. Close too. He was incredible tonight. I think if you switch the QBs it's a much closer game.
How much have you been drinking?

Time available in the pocket has been completely on Favre's side. Do you think he has the same kind of game with half the time?

Yup. Considering the tremendous pressure AR was under all night he did fantastic. He`s a gutsy QB. He`s also about the best chance the Packers have to win games.

Also this game isn`t over yet. :D

Jimx29
10-05-2009, 10:46 PM
i think next time AR is being chased he should go grade school and just drill it into the DL's nuts.

hahahahahahhaha. I needed that. Thanks.

I would piss my pants too see that!next...on sportscenter.....

PackerTimer
10-05-2009, 10:46 PM
Completely agree about the time. Rodgers hasn't had much on some plays, and on others he has had a substantial amount and held onto the ball for a drive killing sack. Favre gets rid of the ball very quick and doesn't take a lot of sacks historically.

Just my opinion.

That said, this game isn't over yet. I would get in FG position and kick it.

Most of that has to do with the O-Lines, Favre has the chance to get rid of quick because he has check downs. Rodgers has all of his check downs in blocking. He has to hold the ball for people to get open.

Brohm
10-05-2009, 10:46 PM
Arod showing the OL how to man up.

MichiganPackerFan
10-05-2009, 10:46 PM
I need another beer.

same, but i know its going to cost me at work tomorrow

Fosco33
10-05-2009, 10:46 PM
TD, onside, FG - OT - Favre pick 6

Wishfull...

Partial
10-05-2009, 10:46 PM
Gruden just made a very good point. If they had kicked the field goal they'd be playing for the tie here. That said, I'm glad they went for it.

pbmax
10-05-2009, 10:47 PM
Favre wanted it. Called that one. Close too. He was incredible tonight. I think if you switch the QBs it's a much closer game.
How much have you been drinking?

Time available in the pocket has been completely on Favre's side. Do you think he has the same kind of game with half the time?

Yup. Considering the tremendous pressure AR was under all night he did fantastic. He`s a gutsy QB, He`s also about the best chance the Packers have to win games.
Quite a night by your guy as well. He's a hellacious competitor.

Fosco33
10-05-2009, 10:47 PM
I need another beer.

same, but i know its going to cost me at work tomorrow

I love the west coast - only 845 here. Plenty of time for beer and sobriety.

Fosco33
10-05-2009, 10:47 PM
Career night for Arod. Sad.

Freak Out
10-05-2009, 10:47 PM
We can do this guys.......LETS GO!

Partial
10-05-2009, 10:47 PM
Very wise play by Grant. He is actually having a decent game.

PackerTimer
10-05-2009, 10:47 PM
I certainly hope one thing we learned from this game is that we can use short passes to our RB's and TE's and get some big yardage out of it.

MichiganPackerFan
10-05-2009, 10:47 PM
Gruden just made a very good point. If they had kicked the field goal they'd be playing for the tie here. That said, I'm glad they went for it.

same - play to win, not (sherman) play not to lose

Partial
10-05-2009, 10:48 PM
Career night for Arod. Sad.

I'm shocked by that. I feel like he has put up a lot more yards before. I also don't feel like he threw for that many tonight. I'm surprised. I would have guessed 100 less yards. Hmm.

Freak Out
10-05-2009, 10:48 PM
Eight fucking sacks.......

Brohm
10-05-2009, 10:48 PM
I know it's irrational, but fire that MF'er tomorrow for the OL

woodbuck27
10-05-2009, 10:48 PM
AR has had a career passing night with 358 yards and counting.

Whoops AR gets sacked for the 7th time. A record on MNF.

MOBB DEEP
10-05-2009, 10:48 PM
aarons stats are awesome; like last year

Gunakor
10-05-2009, 10:48 PM
Lang has no chance against Allen. In way too far over his head.

PackerTimer
10-05-2009, 10:48 PM
Damn get up there and kick the field goal.

Took too long get the play off.

Partial
10-05-2009, 10:49 PM
Good boy Rodgers. Kick. This game isn't over yet folks...

Very good drive from Rodgers. That was absolutely clutch.

Freak Out
10-05-2009, 10:49 PM
Bad game management. M3/Rodgers you blow.

ThunderDan
10-05-2009, 10:49 PM
Career night for Arod. Sad.

I'm shocked by that. I feel like he has put up a lot more yards before. I also don't feel like he threw for that many tonight. I'm surprised. I would have guessed 100 less yards. Hmm.

Stats don't tell everything.

MOBB DEEP
10-05-2009, 10:49 PM
AR has had a career passing night with 358 yards and counting.

Whoops AR gets sacked for the 7th time. A record on MNF.

:cry:

Bossman641
10-05-2009, 10:49 PM
Very wise play by Grant. He is actually having a decent game.

I agree. He looks much better catching the ball tonight. He's been running hard

Partial
10-05-2009, 10:49 PM
Bad game management. M3/Rodgers you blow.

Disagree that last drive was clutch, and I'm serious. They're giving them a chance.

Donald Lee catches that damn ball and we're in overtime despite how bad we were dominated.

We still have a shot here!

Brohm
10-05-2009, 10:50 PM
AR has had a career passing night with 358 yards and counting.

Whoops AR gets sacked for the 7th time. A record on MNF.

:cry:

Another fucking embarrassment this year.

Brando19
10-05-2009, 10:50 PM
If they recover this....I'll never talk bad about TT again.

crosbiegrad
10-05-2009, 10:50 PM
I've been impressed by Crosby's onside kicks so far so were still in with a shout

retailguy
10-05-2009, 10:50 PM
Career night for Arod. Sad.

I'm shocked by that. I feel like he has put up a lot more yards before. I also don't feel like he threw for that many tonight. I'm surprised. I would have guessed 100 less yards. Hmm.

Stats don't tell everything.

that would be "gut feelings" don't tell everything Dan. The stats did tell this one.

MichiganPackerFan
10-05-2009, 10:50 PM
my wife's been calling for the trainers head- sick of the injuries. I dont agree, but....

And when do we stop calling bigby a starter?

Badgerinmaine
10-05-2009, 10:50 PM
Good boy Rodgers. Kick. This game isn't over yet folks...

Very good drive from Rodgers. That was absolutely clutch.
True that.

Jimx29
10-05-2009, 10:50 PM
If they recover this....I'll never talk bad about TT again.i'll carry the load

Freak Out
10-05-2009, 10:50 PM
They wasted way to much time after the sack.

Brohm
10-05-2009, 10:50 PM
They are not evenlooking to catch it. WTF ST

Badgerinmaine
10-05-2009, 10:50 PM
my wife's been calling for the trainers head- sick of the injuries. I dont agree, but....

And when do we stop calling bigby a starter?
He's more of an alternator than a starter. :-)

Partial
10-05-2009, 10:51 PM
Well, that is the ball game. Valiant effort at the end. If Lee caught that TD we are going to OT despite getting dominated. That is at least something.

I give Rodgers a ton of credit for continuing to fight tonight. He got his ass destroyed and fought to the end.

Brohm
10-05-2009, 10:51 PM
NOONE!

crosbiegrad
10-05-2009, 10:51 PM
Somebody needs to go up and get those

PackerTimer
10-05-2009, 10:51 PM
Crosby does that beautifully. Man we'll get our share of those eventually.

Bretsky
10-05-2009, 10:51 PM
If they recover this....I'll never talk bad about TT again.


OK, you JINXED ALL CHANCES

MichiganPackerFan
10-05-2009, 10:51 PM
Fucking A - need a least a chicago-style late dirty hit

Brohm
10-05-2009, 10:52 PM
my wife's been calling for the trainers head- sick of the injuries. I dont agree, but....

And when do we stop calling bigby a starter?
He's more of an alternator than a starter. :-)

Cut his always hurt one year wonder ass tomorrow for Levi Jones.

Gunakor
10-05-2009, 10:52 PM
Aaron Rodgers' stat line for the night: 26/37, 384 yards, 2 TD's plus an easy one D. Lee dropped.

And all we're gonna hear about for 2 weeks is how we shouldn't have traded Favre in favor of Rodgers.

It's already starting on ESPN.

Freak Out
10-05-2009, 10:52 PM
Well....Rodgers is still learning the game I guess......

woodbuck27
10-05-2009, 10:52 PM
OK. 55 seconds left and it`s another close Packers - Minnesota game. Vikings 30-23.

The Vikings HC almost handing this game back to Green Bay. :D

OK it's over and Favre has now defeated every team in the NFL.

The Shadow
10-05-2009, 10:52 PM
Incredibly impressed by Aaron Rodgers.

Partial
10-05-2009, 10:52 PM
Hand shakes? We'll see... I don't see it happening.

Bretsky
10-05-2009, 10:52 PM
Well, that is the ball game. Valiant effort at the end. If Lee caught that TD we are going to OT despite getting dominated. That is at least something.

I give Rodgers a ton of credit for continuing to fight tonight. He got his ass destroyed and fought to the end.


Overall this was a dam well played game by Aaron Rodgers; far short of perfect but this is only his second year

Brando19
10-05-2009, 10:53 PM
If they recover this....I'll never talk bad about TT again.i'll carry the load

:lol:

pbmax
10-05-2009, 10:53 PM
Well, that just blows. Time to name Harlan as Vice President of Personnel - Offensive Line.

Partial
10-05-2009, 10:54 PM
No handscape between Rodgers/Favre or Favre Mac?

Freak Out
10-05-2009, 10:54 PM
Well, that just blows. Time to name Harlan as Vice President of Personnel - Offensive Line.

:lol:

Brohm
10-05-2009, 10:54 PM
ARod played his fucking heart out under relentless, stupid pressure (thanks TT). With the shit on the line, the only place it ended up was in the OL and Lee's pants.

crosbiegrad
10-05-2009, 10:54 PM
I officially hate Favre now. I'm a bad loser at the best of times but his smug little grin is too much for me tonight

woodbuck27
10-05-2009, 10:54 PM
Donald Driver and Brett Favre hugging after the game. So nice.

Favre is very emotional at the end of this game. He's a classy Pro athlete.

Partial
10-05-2009, 10:54 PM
Well, that is the ball game. Valiant effort at the end. If Lee caught that TD we are going to OT despite getting dominated. That is at least something.

I give Rodgers a ton of credit for continuing to fight tonight. He got his ass destroyed and fought to the end.


Overall this was a dam well played game by Aaron Rodgers; far short of perfect but this is only his second year

I wouldn't say Damn well, it wasn't great imo, but it was a valiant effort and showed a lot of heart in the end.

Bretsky
10-05-2009, 10:54 PM
Well, that just blows. Time to name Harlan as Vice President of Personnel - Offensive Line.


I hope this is the end of our developmental squad; time to think about veterna help one of these years

pbmax
10-05-2009, 10:55 PM
Well, that is the ball game. Valiant effort at the end. If Lee caught that TD we are going to OT despite getting dominated. That is at least something.

I give Rodgers a ton of credit for continuing to fight tonight. He got his ass destroyed and fought to the end.


Overall this was a dam well played game by Aaron Rodgers; far short of perfect but this is only his second year
What did Ron Wolf say? He would never put stumblebums in front of Favre?

No one remembers that he struggled to find guards and a new LT, but he eventually got it right in spades.

Thompson needs to get it done now.

Brohm
10-05-2009, 10:55 PM
Farve giving ARof props. Kudos BF.

retailguy
10-05-2009, 10:55 PM
Well, that just blows. Time to name Harlan as Vice President of Personnel - Offensive Line.

If Levi Jones isn't here tomorrow, we're all fuckin nuts...

woodbuck27
10-05-2009, 10:55 PM
Well, that is the ball game. Valiant effort at the end. If Lee caught that TD we are going to OT despite getting dominated. That is at least something.

I give Rodgers a ton of credit for continuing to fight tonight. He got his ass destroyed and fought to the end.


Overall this was a dam well played game by Aaron Rodgers; far short of perfect but this is only his second year

I wouldn't say Damn well, it wasn't great imo, but it was a valiant effort and showed a lot of heart in the end.

ARod played fantastic.

Jimx29
10-05-2009, 10:55 PM
Brett class act all the way post game

Badgerinmaine
10-05-2009, 10:55 PM
No handscape between Rodgers/Favre or Favre Mac?
There was a quick handshake between Favre and Rodgers. I am still, let's say displeased with Favre, but the warm reception he got from a lot of his old mates says a lot for him.

Fosco33
10-05-2009, 10:56 PM
Ok, ESPN - I need a stat here.


Ogunleye - 2 sacks
Odom - 5 sacks
Little - 2 sacks
Allen - 4.5 sacks

Only 5 people have ever had 5.5 or more sacks in a game.

We are making DEs season - every game.

Freak Out
10-05-2009, 10:56 PM
How many sacks did that fuck Allen end up with? Six or so...? :lol:

retailguy
10-05-2009, 10:56 PM
with a good OL, we might have won this game.

pbmax
10-05-2009, 10:56 PM
Well, that just blows. Time to name Harlan as Vice President of Personnel - Offensive Line.

If Levi Jones isn't here tomorrow, we're all fuckin nuts...
You ain't whistling Dixie, unless Colledge is visited by the Ghost of Reggie's Hamstring tonight. Maybe even then. :lol: