Packers Linebackers

[Sparkey]

Anyone who has dvr'd the game, you have to go re-watch the play where Favre had like 7.3 seconds to throw the ball. They show an angle from behind the Vikings line and if you watch Barnett, it is freakin hilarious.

He steps in, like a fake rush (but a terrible fake) then steps back a few steps, turns in a circle (lookin around like wth am I supposed to be)steps up then goes back again. Chiken with his head cut off type of play.

On that note, Barnett is not suited to play in a 3-4 defense. He is best asset is (or was) his speed and ability to run sideline to sideline and make plays. However, in a 3-4 the ilb's do not need to run side to side. They need to be agressive and meet plays head on and use their strength to attack. Yes, he lead the team in tackles vs Minny, but how many were 4 or more yards downfield ?

Barnett is totally miscast in his current role. In my opinion, the best LB group for the pack would be Chillar, Bishop, Hawk and Matthews.

Matthews shows flashes of what he will eventually be capable of doing, once he gets a few more games under his belt.

Hawk is now the lb that does the grunt work inside. So his tackle numbers will suffer, but he rarely is out of place.

Kampmann was a great DE in a 4-3, he currently a liability in Capers 3-4 (at least based on how he is being used at this point.) Chillar has shown he is a better blitzer, so far.)

[Deputy Nutz]

Anyone who has dvr'd the game, you have to go re-watch the play where Favre had like 7.3 seconds to throw the ball. They show an angle from behind the Vikings line and if you watch Barnett, it is freakin hilarious.

He steps in, like a fake rush (but a terrible fake) then steps back a few steps, turns in a circle (lookin around like wth am I supposed to be)steps up then goes back again. Chiken with his head cut off type of play.

On that note, Barnett is not suited to play in a 3-4 defense. He is best asset is (or was) his speed and ability to run sideline to sideline and make plays. However, in a 3-4 the ilb's do not need to run side to side. They need to be agressive and meet plays head on and use their strength to attack. Yes, he lead the team in tackles vs Minny, but how many were 4 or more yards downfield ?

Barnett is totally miscast in his current role. In my opinion, the best LB group for the pack would be Chillar, Bishop, Hawk and Matthews.

Matthews shows flashes of what he will eventually be capable of doing, once he gets a few more games under his belt.

Hawk is now the lb that does the grunt work inside. So his tackle numbers will suffer, but he rarely is out of place.

Kampmann was a great DE in a 4-3, he currently a liability in Capers 3-4 (at least based on how he is being used at this point.)

I am not saying that I don't like the 3-4 defense, but it seemed like our personnel is set up for the 4-3. Thompson made one move in the offseason to build the 3-4 and that was the drafting of Mathews. Raji could really be dominant in a 4-3, but he will be an ok nose in a 3-4.

I feel really bad for Kampman, he is so out of place and this isn't a critique against him, he has transitioned pretty well, but he is misused in this scheme. It is similar if the Vikings decided to play a 3-4 and moved Jared Allen to OLB. WHY? Thank God Kampman is a free agent next year because he isn't signing with GB to play OLB.

Hawk was on the field from what I recall 20 plays at most. When he was out there he was in position, made tackles on Peterson, clogged up the middle, and made a couple of tackles out in the flat on running backs. Hawk is are overall best linebacker, that is not saying very much but he has the ability to cover and play the run.

Have people finally seen the real Brandon Chillar yet? Because if anyone is on that horse still you are fucking blind. He did have great coverage on Charles Woodson on one play, I ain't going to take that away from him.

Barnett is not an inside backer in a 3-4. He needs two big bodies in front of him to keep blockers off of him. He and Chillar are running around bumping into each other, it is like the blind leading the blind into a brick wall.

Mathews will be all right, he made the biggest play on defense last night. Nice feel. Understands the game of football, once the pass rushing techniques come he is going to be an above average player.

Running downs the inside backers should be Bishop and Hawk. Passing downs it should be Hawk and anyone that can blitz because no one else can cover shit.

[Scott Campbell]

Have people finally seen the real Brandon Chillar yet? Because if anyone is on that horse still you are fucking blind. He did have great coverage on Charles Woodson on one play, I ain't going to take that away from him.



:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Waldo]

For how much Hawk's #'s are supposed to hurt.....

They're not.

He's #2 on the team in tackles, and has played a lot less snaps than Chillar, who has 3 more (and 3 more TD receptions given up).

Is there anything that Chillar doesn't suck at? At best the guy is ridiculously inconsistent.

[Zool]

Poops isn't good. I'm not sure he'd even get picked up if cut today.

Kampy is not looking bad but also not looking good. Just sort of taking up space. He does keep the RB's contained on stretches to his side though.

Matthews looks fairly assignment sure so far. I guess that's a compliment.

Hawk, if he was a mean SOB we'd really have something. He's always in the right place just doesn't play angry.

Barnett...anyone who reads here regular knows my feelings on ol' drag down tackle.

Chillar...nice fucking taunting penalty retard. He's as dumb as a box of shit.

Bishop...even with the spotty LB play he's non-existent

Its kind of a crap sandwich at LB right now.

[KYPack]

Good analysis there, Nutz.

The only thing I have to add is Brady needs to find the pine and put Matthews in there on all three downs. He's is green, but his mistakes are better than leaving a liability like Popp in there. Brady has no shed. he was better at shed when he didn't know what he was doin'. Now that he has the experience to know when he might make a bad play, he is tenative,he makes one anyhow.

Popp got his ass washed the hell out on the goal line. He knows they are gonna try an pin him on that play. He countered by taking a worse angle and really got drilled.

Matthews has tremendous feel and is an intuitive player. With Popp making negative plays, put the youngbood in there and let him learn that job now. CMIII could be a factor for us with the experience necessary to make plays. Lt's give it to him.

[Deputy Nutz]

I didn't even mention Poop. There was a reason for that. I think he played 5 plays on defense last night. Mathews and Thompson will jump him in the depth chart.

Poppinga is another example of playing a 3-4 defense with 4-3 players. Poppinga was a decent 4-3 strong side linebacker against the run. Now he is basically useless. Which is 90% his fault for being a mormon.

[Sparkey]

Anyone who has dvr'd the game, you have to go re-watch the play where Favre had like 7.3 seconds to throw the ball. They show an angle from behind the Vikings line and if you watch Barnett, it is freakin hilarious.

He steps in, like a fake rush (but a terrible fake) then steps back a few steps, turns in a circle (lookin around like wth am I supposed to be)steps up then goes back again. Chiken with his head cut off type of play.

On that note, Barnett is not suited to play in a 3-4 defense. He is best asset is (or was) his speed and ability to run sideline to sideline and make plays. However, in a 3-4 the ilb's do not need to run side to side. They need to be agressive and meet plays head on and use their strength to attack. Yes, he lead the team in tackles vs Minny, but how many were 4 or more yards downfield ?

Barnett is totally miscast in his current role. In my opinion, the best LB group for the pack would be Chillar, Bishop, Hawk and Matthews.

Matthews shows flashes of what he will eventually be capable of doing, once he gets a few more games under his belt.

Hawk is now the lb that does the grunt work inside. So his tackle numbers will suffer, but he rarely is out of place.

Kampmann was a great DE in a 4-3, he currently a liability in Capers 3-4 (at least based on how he is being used at this point.)

I am not saying that I don't like the 3-4 defense, but it seemed like our personnel is set up for the 4-3. Thompson made one move in the offseason to build the 3-4 and that was the drafting of Mathews. Raji could really be dominant in a 4-3, but he will be an ok nose in a 3-4.

I feel really bad for Kampman, he is so out of place and this isn't a critique against him, he has transitioned pretty well, but he is misused in this scheme. It is similar if the Vikings decided to play a 3-4 and moved Jared Allen to OLB. WHY? Thank God Kampman is a free agent next year because he isn't signing with GB to play OLB.

Hawk was on the field from what I recall 20 plays at most. When he was out there he was in position, made tackles on Peterson, clogged up the middle, and made a couple of tackles out in the flat on running backs. Hawk is are overall best linebacker, that is not saying very much but he has the ability to cover and play the run.

Have people finally seen the real Brandon Chillar yet? Because if anyone is on that horse still you are fucking blind. He did have great coverage on Charles Woodson on one play, I ain't going to take that away from him.

Barnett is not an inside backer in a 3-4. He needs two big bodies in front of him to keep blockers off of him. He and Chillar are running around bumping into each other, it is like the blind leading the blind into a brick wall.

Mathews will be all right, he made the biggest play on defense last night. Nice feel. Understands the game of football, once the pass rushing techniques come he is going to be an above average player.

Running downs the inside backers should be Bishop and Hawk. Passing downs it should be Hawk and anyone that can blitz because no one else can cover shit.

If they are going to use the LOLB to drop in coverage more often than rush, then Chillar is better than Kampmann. Is that a compliment ? Hardly. Sometimes it seems that Capers is trying to confuse the opposing offense so much that he forgets that by doing so, he is putting his best players in situations that they are bound to fail.

LOL, think about this. This coming offseason, Kampmann signs with Minnesota. (Allen, Williams, Williams, Kampmann) Would that be the sickest D-Line in the league ?

[Freak Out]

Why would anyone not a coach or a masochist watch a replay of the game? :lol: I was screaming/crying in the bar at the play you mentioned...passing downs were just maddening to watch. They keyed AP so well just to fall apart when Favre had the ball in his hands.

[Packerarcher]

Anyone who has dvr'd the game, you have to go re-watch the play where Favre had like 7.3 seconds to throw the ball. They show an angle from behind the Vikings line and if you watch Barnett, it is freakin hilarious.

He steps in, like a fake rush (but a terrible fake) then steps back a few steps, turns in a circle (lookin around like wth am I supposed to be)steps up then goes back again. Chiken with his head cut off type of play.

On that note, Barnett is not suited to play in a 3-4 defense. He is best asset is (or was) his speed and ability to run sideline to sideline and make plays. However, in a 3-4 the ilb's do not need to run side to side. They need to be agressive and meet plays head on and use their strength to attack. Yes, he lead the team in tackles vs Minny, but how many were 4 or more yards downfield ?

Barnett is totally miscast in his current role. In my opinion, the best LB group for the pack would be Chillar, Bishop, Hawk and Matthews.

Matthews shows flashes of what he will eventually be capable of doing, once he gets a few more games under his belt.

Hawk is now the lb that does the grunt work inside. So his tackle numbers will suffer, but he rarely is out of place.

Kampmann was a great DE in a 4-3, he currently a liability in Capers 3-4 (at least based on how he is being used at this point.)

I am not saying that I don't like the 3-4 defense, but it seemed like our personnel is set up for the 4-3. Thompson made one move in the offseason to build the 3-4 and that was the drafting of Mathews. Raji could really be dominant in a 4-3, but he will be an ok nose in a 3-4.

I feel really bad for Kampman, he is so out of place and this isn't a critique against him, he has transitioned pretty well, but he is misused in this scheme. It is similar if the Vikings decided to play a 3-4 and moved Jared Allen to OLB. WHY? Thank God Kampman is a free agent next year because he isn't signing with GB to play OLB.

Hawk was on the field from what I recall 20 plays at most. When he was out there he was in position, made tackles on Peterson, clogged up the middle, and made a couple of tackles out in the flat on running backs. Hawk is are overall best linebacker, that is not saying very much but he has the ability to cover and play the run.

Have people finally seen the real Brandon Chillar yet? Because if anyone is on that horse still you are fucking blind. He did have great coverage on Charles Woodson on one play, I ain't going to take that away from him.

Barnett is not an inside backer in a 3-4. He needs two big bodies in front of him to keep blockers off of him. He and Chillar are running around bumping into each other, it is like the blind leading the blind into a brick wall.

Mathews will be all right, he made the biggest play on defense last night. Nice feel. Understands the game of football, once the pass rushing techniques come he is going to be an above average player.

Running downs the inside backers should be Bishop and Hawk. Passing downs it should be Hawk and anyone that can blitz because no one else can cover shit.

If they are going to use the LOLB to drop in coverage more often than rush, then Chillar is better than Kampmann. Is that a compliment ? Hardly. Sometimes it seems that Capers is trying to confuse the opposing offense so much that he forgets that by doing so, he is putting his best players in situations that they are bound to fail.

LOL, think about this. This coming offseason, Kampmann signs with Minnesota. (Allen, Williams, Williams, Kampmann) Would that be the sickest D-Line in the league ?

Kampy is my favorite current Packer,I ahve been a big Kampmann fan since his rookie year. It will be a sad day if he leaves the Pack,but if it would happen he would still be a favorite.

[MichiganPackerFan]

Chillar...nice fucking taunting penalty retard. He's as dumb as a box of shit.

If the officials were not so one sided, they would have been consistent and called the same later on Allen.

[mmmdk]

Chillar...nice fucking taunting penalty retard. He's as dumb as a box of shit.

If the officials were not so one sided, they would have been consistent and called the same later on Allen.

Chillar; be a box of chocolate.

To refs: send them boxes of chocolate.

WILL DO, EH !? :D

[mngolf19]

LOL, think about this. This coming offseason, Kampmann signs with Minnesota. (Allen, Williams, Williams, Kampmann) Would that be the sickest D-Line in the league ?

This is exactly what I am thinking due to MN and Kamp's interest earlier.

[rbaloha1]

Kampman needs to rush the qb close to 100 per cent of the time. Chillar and Matthews are playmakers that need to be on the field the majority of snaps.

[wist43]

Yes, the players are miscast... and Kampman will be sprinting for the door as soon as FA opens up next year; but, the change needed to be made IMO.

You can do so much more with a 3-4 than you can with a 4-3, although the transition is going to be painful from time to time. As I've been saying since they announced they were changing schemes, we're going to have to expect growing pains.

With the exception of this years draft class, they drafted all of their current players to play in a 4-3 - and most of them sucked in that... it is unrealistic to think that average, to below average players best suited for a 4-3, could be plugged into a 3-4 and expect them to excel.

Beyond that, I do have concerns about Capers... good coach, but he has a tendency to go conservative. In his defense, what we're seeing in terms of his conservative game plans and play calling could be a function of the miscast personnel, but I haven't been overly impressed with his job performance thru the first 4 games. Capers is no Rex Ryan, that's for sure.

[mission]

LOL, think about this. This coming offseason, Kampmann signs with Minnesota. (Allen, Williams, Williams, Kampmann) Would that be the sickest D-Line in the league ?


This is exactly what I am thinking due to MN and Kamp's interest earlier.

Wishful thinking I bet.. Wasn't that interest before mn invested a ton of money in Allen? I can't imagine that they could pull that off financially unless someone takes a huge cut or kampmans market value is so deflated from a potentially poor (statistically) season.

[MadScientist]

LOL, think about this. This coming offseason, Kampmann signs with Minnesota. (Allen, Williams, Williams, Kampmann) Would that be the sickest D-Line in the league ?


This is exactly what I am thinking due to MN and Kamp's interest earlier.

Wishful thinking I bet.. Wasn't that interest before mn invested a ton of money in Allen? I can't imagine that they could pull that off financially unless someone takes a huge cut or kampmans market value is so deflated from a potentially poor (statistically) season.

MN's finances are not the deciding factor here. The Packers will franchise Kampy and control who they trade him to, unless there is a dramatic change during the rest of the year.

I know Capers likes the 2-4 look for the nickel, but would it be that bad to show a 4-2 from time to time, let Kampy pin his ears back and charge the QB?

[Scott Campbell]

Poppinga is another example of playing a 3-4 defense with 4-3 players. Poppinga was a decent 4-3 strong side linebacker against the run. Now he is basically useless. Which is 90% his fault for being a mormon.


He played at BYU. I don't like him.

[SkinBasket]

Chillar and Matthews are playmakers that need to be on the field the majority of snaps.

What play has Chillar made? Other than giving up TDs in coverage and being smothered one-on-one? I wish I had remembered to record the game, because I would like to go back and try to find something he did that could be considered beneficial, much less "playmaker" material.

[rbaloha1]

Chillar and Matthews are playmakers that need to be on the field the majority of snaps.

What play has Chillar made? Other than giving up TDs in coverage and being smothered one-on-one? I wish I had remembered to record the game, because I would like to go back and try to find something he did that could be considered beneficial, much less "playmaker" material.

Chillar has one sack. Unsure of tfl. Involved in the Matthews td.

[3irty1]

I'm actually pretty ok with the LB personnel. I think the only player that is totally miscast is Poppinga. I actually like Poppinga but he's not working out in this scheme. Kampman isn't worse than he was for the last ten games of last year. He's a smart player and he's still a handful to block. Hawk looks good. Barnett, well I'm holding off on judging Barnett. Chillar could be worse. If Bishop played against real players he'd probably suck.

[Guiness]

Has J Thompson seen the field yet?

[bobblehead]

For how much Hawk's #'s are supposed to hurt.....

They're not.

He's #2 on the team in tackles, and has played a lot less snaps than Chillar, who has 3 more (and 3 more TD receptions given up).

Is there anything that Chillar doesn't suck at? At best the guy is ridiculously inconsistent.

Since its my job to defend chillar, he gave up 2 TD's playing safety cuz we don't have any on the roster.

I won't gripe too much about our LB's this week since they weren't the problem. I would say they all played decent based on what I saw. Can't complain about the pass rushing from them since we didn't do enough of it. Can't gripe about peterson getting shut down.

I'll go back and use the argument you used against me before the season waldo...If Hawk is such a stud and Chillar is such a joke why is the coaching staff using Chillar more and more, and Hawk less and less??

[bobblehead]

Yes, the players are miscast... and Kampman will be sprinting for the door as soon as FA opens up next year; but, the change needed to be made IMO.

You can do so much more with a 3-4 than you can with a 4-3, although the transition is going to be painful from time to time. As I've been saying since they announced they were changing schemes, we're going to have to expect growing pains.

With the exception of this years draft class, they drafted all of their current players to play in a 4-3 - and most of them sucked in that... it is unrealistic to think that average, to below average players best suited for a 4-3, could be plugged into a 3-4 and expect them to excel.

Beyond that, I do have concerns about Capers... good coach, but he has a tendency to go conservative. In his defense, what we're seeing in terms of his conservative game plans and play calling could be a function of the miscast personnel, but I haven't been overly impressed with his job performance thru the first 4 games. Capers is no Rex Ryan, that's for sure.

yea, lets compare the resume of Dom Capers vs. Rex Ryan and see who comes out on top. I still think MM is reigning in the real Dom.

[SnakeLH2006]

Anyone who has dvr'd the game, you have to go re-watch the play where Favre had like 7.3 seconds to throw the ball. They show an angle from behind the Vikings line and if you watch Barnett, it is freakin hilarious.

He steps in, like a fake rush (but a terrible fake) then steps back a few steps, turns in a circle (lookin around like wth am I supposed to be)steps up then goes back again. Chiken with his head cut off type of play.

On that note, Barnett is not suited to play in a 3-4 defense. He is best asset is (or was) his speed and ability to run sideline to sideline and make plays. However, in a 3-4 the ilb's do not need to run side to side. They need to be agressive and meet plays head on and use their strength to attack. Yes, he lead the team in tackles vs Minny, but how many were 4 or more yards downfield ?

Barnett is totally miscast in his current role. In my opinion, the best LB group for the pack would be Chillar, Bishop, Hawk and Matthews.

Matthews shows flashes of what he will eventually be capable of doing, once he gets a few more games under his belt.

Hawk is now the lb that does the grunt work inside. So his tackle numbers will suffer, but he rarely is out of place.

Kampmann was a great DE in a 4-3, he currently a liability in Capers 3-4 (at least based on how he is being used at this point.) Chillar has shown he is a better blitzer, so far.)

Snake totally agrees. Barnett is horrible in this new 3-4. Bench his ass (fuck his contract) and bring up my man Bishop. Barnett in 4 games looks clueless. Matthews (a rook mind you) makes plays...Hawk is ok. Chillar is a beast. Kampy is SO FUCKING LOST. Bring up the Bishop. What do they have to lose?

[Gunakor]

Anyone who has dvr'd the game, you have to go re-watch the play where Favre had like 7.3 seconds to throw the ball. They show an angle from behind the Vikings line and if you watch Barnett, it is freakin hilarious.

He steps in, like a fake rush (but a terrible fake) then steps back a few steps, turns in a circle (lookin around like wth am I supposed to be)steps up then goes back again. Chiken with his head cut off type of play.

On that note, Barnett is not suited to play in a 3-4 defense. He is best asset is (or was) his speed and ability to run sideline to sideline and make plays. However, in a 3-4 the ilb's do not need to run side to side. They need to be agressive and meet plays head on and use their strength to attack. Yes, he lead the team in tackles vs Minny, but how many were 4 or more yards downfield ?

Barnett is totally miscast in his current role. In my opinion, the best LB group for the pack would be Chillar, Bishop, Hawk and Matthews.

Matthews shows flashes of what he will eventually be capable of doing, once he gets a few more games under his belt.

Hawk is now the lb that does the grunt work inside. So his tackle numbers will suffer, but he rarely is out of place.

Kampmann was a great DE in a 4-3, he currently a liability in Capers 3-4 (at least based on how he is being used at this point.) Chillar has shown he is a better blitzer, so far.)

Snake totally agrees. Barnett is horrible in this new 3-4. Bench his ass (fuck his contract) and bring up my man Bishop. Barnett in 4 games looks clueless. Matthews (a rook mind you) makes plays...Hawk is ok. Chillar is a beast. Kampy is SO FUCKING LOST. Bring up the Bishop. What do they have to lose?

How many more times does Chillar have to get beat to a bloody pulp in pass coverage before you agree he's not a beast? The guy isn't that great. Sure he makes plays, some for the Packers, some for the Packers opponent. The worst team in the NFL - using a backup QB mind you - made Chillar look like a pee-wee backup. I don't think he deserves all the credit he's getting.

I'd bring up Bishop in place of Barnett from time to time, that's worth a look. But as far as Kampy goes, who BTW is amongst the team leaders in tackles despite looking lost, who would you replace him with? Poppinga? Jeremy Thompson? We're kinda stuck there, for this year anyway. And we had better pray that Kampy doesn't get himself injured for any length of time.

[SnakeLH2006]

Anyone who has dvr'd the game, you have to go re-watch the play where Favre had like 7.3 seconds to throw the ball. They show an angle from behind the Vikings line and if you watch Barnett, it is freakin hilarious.

He steps in, like a fake rush (but a terrible fake) then steps back a few steps, turns in a circle (lookin around like wth am I supposed to be)steps up then goes back again. Chiken with his head cut off type of play.

On that note, Barnett is not suited to play in a 3-4 defense. He is best asset is (or was) his speed and ability to run sideline to sideline and make plays. However, in a 3-4 the ilb's do not need to run side to side. They need to be agressive and meet plays head on and use their strength to attack. Yes, he lead the team in tackles vs Minny, but how many were 4 or more yards downfield ?

Barnett is totally miscast in his current role. In my opinion, the best LB group for the pack would be Chillar, Bishop, Hawk and Matthews.

Matthews shows flashes of what he will eventually be capable of doing, once he gets a few more games under his belt.

Hawk is now the lb that does the grunt work inside. So his tackle numbers will suffer, but he rarely is out of place.

Kampmann was a great DE in a 4-3, he currently a liability in Capers 3-4 (at least based on how he is being used at this point.) Chillar has shown he is a better blitzer, so far.)

Snake totally agrees. Barnett is horrible in this new 3-4. Bench his ass (fuck his contract) and bring up my man Bishop. Barnett in 4 games looks clueless. Matthews (a rook mind you) makes plays...Hawk is ok. Chillar is a beast. Kampy is SO FUCKING LOST. Bring up the Bishop. What do they have to lose?

How many more times does Chillar have to get beat to a bloody pulp in pass coverage before you agree he's not a beast? The guy isn't that great. Sure he makes plays, some for the Packers, some for the Packers opponent. The worst team in the NFL - using a backup QB mind you - made Chillar look like a pee-wee backup. I don't think he deserves all the credit he's getting.

I'd bring up Bishop in place of Barnett from time to time, that's worth a look. But as far as Kampy goes, who BTW is amongst the team leaders in tackles despite looking lost, who would you replace him with? Poppinga? Jeremy Thompson? We're kinda stuck there, for this year anyway. And we had better pray that Kampy doesn't get himself injured for any length of time.

Chillar looks good in pash-rush. I agree he has got beat on pass-coverage. Doubted many beside me saw it (as most praise him....and I crucified him before this year....I was only trying to appease them...but he's better than Barnett now). Popps (always hated him.....he still is worthless) Jeremy Thompson (always hated him.....dude is even more worthless)....Kampy...I think he HAS so much talent.....THEY DON"T PLAY HIM RIGHT. Line him up and let him rush with his hand down. That is BS watching him half-ass rush (not his fault) and pass-protect. RUSH KAMPY!!!!

Either way, Kampy is not gonna get enough deece snaps to do shit this year the way they use him. Barnett is lost. Chillar is pretty good. Poops is poop. Matthews is deece. Bishop can hit/react with RB's and QB's. Play the bastard. Even MM said it. It's all about contracts and BS/hierarchy. Dude could/should be a force in this type of 3-4. Barnett was my point. Worthless so far in 4 games. Name a play (anyone) where he did anything? Bishop should play now.

[Gunakor]

Kampy would fail as a DE in a 3-4. He's not big enough. He wasn't big enough last season before he trimmed down to play OLB. Snake, the OLB's in a 3-4 are the edge rushers. Kampy is playing the only position he could play in a 3-4. If he doesn't fit, if he can't do it, tag him and trade him in the offseason. But he can't play on our DL in a 3-4. He'd look worse than he is now.

[SnakeLH2006]

Kampy would fail as a DE in a 3-4. He's not big enough. He wasn't big enough last season before he trimmed down to play OLB. Snake, the OLB's in a 3-4 are the edge rushers. Kampy is playing the only position he could play in a 3-4. If he doesn't fit, if he can't do it, tag him and trade him in the offseason. But he can't play on our DL in a 3-4. He'd look worse than he is now.

I agree, Gun. Only offering some sympathy to the Kampy apologizers. I agree, this is what it is, Kampy is really just a guy at OLB. If he put his hand down, maybe he'd get some sacks (but doubt it cuz he's really slimmed down....just look at him...to play OLB). It's a joke as our scheme (3-4) is good, but it took our best pass-rusher (34 sacks the last 3 years) and made him a guy at best. What is that? At least let him put his hand down and pass-rush, as he gets no burst hands-up....thus, the point. Kampy has no value but average doing what he's doing. I was amazed at his pass-rush at 275-280 at DE in years past. At what (255 or so and slim) he's done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the first 4 games for a pass rush with his hands up at OLB, nor has Barnett made ONE PLAY.

It's give and take. Some guys look better (Matthews, Chillar) some look far average (Barnett, Kampy). It's a horse a piece. Everything looked great in preseason, but Barnett looks like he should be benched for a playmaker (Bishop) and Kampy looks lost in pass-coverage and offers virtually NO pass-rush like he did at DE vs. OLB where he is now.

[Gunakor]

Kampy would fail as a DE in a 3-4. He's not big enough. He wasn't big enough last season before he trimmed down to play OLB. Snake, the OLB's in a 3-4 are the edge rushers. Kampy is playing the only position he could play in a 3-4. If he doesn't fit, if he can't do it, tag him and trade him in the offseason. But he can't play on our DL in a 3-4. He'd look worse than he is now.

I agree, Gun. Only offering some sympathy to the Kampy apologizers. I agree, this is what it is, Kampy is really just a guy at OLB. If he put his hand down, maybe he'd get some sacks (but doubt it cuz he's really slimmed down....just look at him...to play OLB). It's a joke as our scheme (3-4) is good, but it took our best pass-rusher (34 sacks the last 3 years) and made him a guy at best. What is that? At least let him put his hand down and pass-rush, as he gets no burst hands-up....thus, the point. Kampy has no value but average doing what he's doing. I was amazed at his pass-rush at 275-280 at DE in years past. At what (255 or so and slim) he's done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the first 4 games for a pass rush with his hands up at OLB, nor has Barnett made ONE PLAY.

It's give and take. Some guys look better (Matthews, Chillar) some look far average (Barnett, Kampy). It's a horse a piece. Everything looked great in preseason, but Barnett looks like he should be benched for a playmaker (Bishop) and Kampy looks lost in pass-coverage and offers virtually NO pass-rush like he did at DE vs. OLB where he is now.

I am with you on Barnett. His mind isn't where it needs to be, even if his knee is. But leading up to the Vikings game Kampy was the team leader in tackles, if I'm remembering correctly, which means he's done his job. His job isn't to rush the passer on every down - that's the whole point. The 3-4 is to cause confusion. You don't know if Kampy is coming from one side or Matthews/Chillar is coming from the other. You don't know if Hawk/Barnett/Bishop is gonna collapse the middle, or if Woodson is gonna rush from the corner. You just don't know, and that's the point. I hear what you're saying about Kampy being miscast, and it might end up in his being traded for someone who does fit the scheme. But you aren't gonna go away from the scheme you've been practicing for months because of one player. If Kampy is just a guy in the 3-4 then that's what he is. Trade him for someone who isn't. Or trade him for someone who can help elsewhere. But it's not Dom's fault that Kampy isn't the greatest OLB for a 3-4 team.

However, it might be Dom's fault that they don't blitz more than they do. That much has puzzled me. Kampy would get better pressure if, say, he AND Hawk ran an overload blitz on the poor RT that Kampy is lined up across. That's been my beef with this defense. The playcalling. TURN UP THE HEAT DOM!!!

[SnakeLH2006]

Kampy would fail as a DE in a 3-4. He's not big enough. He wasn't big enough last season before he trimmed down to play OLB. Snake, the OLB's in a 3-4 are the edge rushers. Kampy is playing the only position he could play in a 3-4. If he doesn't fit, if he can't do it, tag him and trade him in the offseason. But he can't play on our DL in a 3-4. He'd look worse than he is now.

I agree, Gun. Only offering some sympathy to the Kampy apologizers. I agree, this is what it is, Kampy is really just a guy at OLB. If he put his hand down, maybe he'd get some sacks (but doubt it cuz he's really slimmed down....just look at him...to play OLB). It's a joke as our scheme (3-4) is good, but it took our best pass-rusher (34 sacks the last 3 years) and made him a guy at best. What is that? At least let him put his hand down and pass-rush, as he gets no burst hands-up....thus, the point. Kampy has no value but average doing what he's doing. I was amazed at his pass-rush at 275-280 at DE in years past. At what (255 or so and slim) he's done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the first 4 games for a pass rush with his hands up at OLB, nor has Barnett made ONE PLAY.

It's give and take. Some guys look better (Matthews, Chillar) some look far average (Barnett, Kampy). It's a horse a piece. Everything looked great in preseason, but Barnett looks like he should be benched for a playmaker (Bishop) and Kampy looks lost in pass-coverage and offers virtually NO pass-rush like he did at DE vs. OLB where he is now.

I am with you on Barnett. His mind isn't where it needs to be, even if his knee is. But leading up to the Vikings game Kampy was the team leader in tackles, if I'm remembering correctly, which means he's done his job. His job isn't to rush the passer on every down - that's the whole point. The 3-4 is to cause confusion. You don't know if Kampy is coming from one side or Matthews/Chillar is coming from the other. You don't know if Hawk/Barnett/Bishop is gonna collapse the middle, or if Woodson is gonna rush from the corner. You just don't know, and that's the point. I hear what you're saying about Kampy being miscast, and it might end up in his being traded for someone who does fit the scheme. But you aren't gonna go away from the scheme you've been practicing for months because of one player. If Kampy is just a guy in the 3-4 then that's what he is. Trade him for someone who isn't. Or trade him for someone who can help elsewhere. But it's not Dom's fault that Kampy isn't the greatest OLB for a 3-4 team.

However, it might be Dom's fault that they don't blitz more than they do. That much has puzzled me. Kampy would get better pressure if, say, he AND Hawk ran an overload blitz on the poor RT that Kampy is lined up across. That's been my beef with this defense. The playcalling. TURN UP THE HEAT DOM!!!

Yep..TURN IT UP! Agreed. Did Dom really think they'd fool a guy (who's seen more snaps at QB in the HISTORY OF THE NFL aka Favre)....no?? I agree. Favre could be 50 and pass all day under a so-so 3-4 Down Lineman pass rush with his pretty deece OL. When does Favre (especially) but most QB's toss it up?...with heat/blitz packages. Unexcusable we didn't pass-rush more.

Why not (they did preseason and on Cutler) turn it up. Favre (like Cutler) gambles when the heat is on....so why not blitz a bunch of guys like Kampy? Totally agree. Kampy at his best is a blitzer. What do they expect out him at 28 years old dropping into coverage on 60% of the plays? It's a scheme thing, but Kampy is not being utilized. Barnett, like I suspected is average. Kampy could be so much better.

Bottom line. Blitz those mofo's. Don't we have supposedly the best 1-2 CB's in the league, so why not? No? Snake is still puzzled. Sometimes I think MM calls those shots and likes to play conservative and it bites us. Really makes me sad when we have all that LB talent and CB talent....BLITZ! Fritz Shurmur is turning in his grave.

[mmmdk]

The problem with Barnett is that he's playing...who's responsible for that? Rhetorical question really.

[pbmax]

Nutz, great thread.

Agree with KYP, Matthews should be starting every down now (not just nickel) and Poppinga should only go in if there is a shooting.

Disagree with Nutz on Raji, he was projected as Nose in the pros before the Packers even made the coaching change. Scouts can be wrong, but I am not sure we have seen enough to know his best spot in a D he hasn't played in the pros.

Not ready to give up on Barnett in this scheme, but he is not healthy yet. He had a play in Phoenix I think (his first preseason game back) that had him sliding down the line left shadowing the RB. When the back cut and hit the hole, Barnett could have planted and went at him, but he took one or two extra hop steps while turning back to the hole to get his feet set. It looked to me like he wanted nothing to do with planting on his repaired leg.

Its going to take until much deeper into the season before he is comfortable with that knee.

One scheme/coverage note. Mark Chmura noted on two plays (one by Woodson and one by Harris) that they passed along a receiver deep and outside to a single safety coverage. He called this coverage Cover (1 or 3*) Lightning. Both plays resulted in long gains along the sideline if I am thinking of the same plays he is.

He explained that the other safety has come up to fill another zone, run support or blitz and that this leaves a single safety deep in the middle. The cornerbacks no longer have just the short zones outside, but must go with the receiver deep if they stay outside. Chmura said both Harris and Woodson released their guys too early and should have turned and run with them.

*don't remember which

[mmmdk]

Not ready to give up on Barnett in this scheme, but he is not healthy yet. He had a play in Phoenix I think (his first preseason game back) that had him sliding down the line left shadowing the RB. When the back cut and hit the hole, Barnett could have planted and went at him, but he took one or two extra hop steps while turning back to the hole to get his feet set. It looked to me like he wanted nothing to do with planting on his repaired leg.

Its going to take until much deeper into the season before he is comfortable with that knee.

Great observation on Barnett.

But I believe Barnett twittered and bullied his way back into the lineup. Who's boss? It seems Barnett is and not McCarthy. Another nail in the coffin for McCarthy. Even if it's Dom conveying Barnett to McCarthy; it still falls on the head coach.

[wist43]

Yes, the players are miscast... and Kampman will be sprinting for the door as soon as FA opens up next year; but, the change needed to be made IMO.

You can do so much more with a 3-4 than you can with a 4-3, although the transition is going to be painful from time to time. As I've been saying since they announced they were changing schemes, we're going to have to expect growing pains.

With the exception of this years draft class, they drafted all of their current players to play in a 4-3 - and most of them sucked in that... it is unrealistic to think that average, to below average players best suited for a 4-3, could be plugged into a 3-4 and expect them to excel.

Beyond that, I do have concerns about Capers... good coach, but he has a tendency to go conservative. In his defense, what we're seeing in terms of his conservative game plans and play calling could be a function of the miscast personnel, but I haven't been overly impressed with his job performance thru the first 4 games. Capers is no Rex Ryan, that's for sure.

yea, lets compare the resume of Dom Capers vs. Rex Ryan and see who comes out on top. I still think MM is reigning in the real Dom.

One of the advantages of running a 3-4 is that you can give a multitude of different presnap looks and send a much greater variety of blitzes...

Capers has a tendency to get conservative, i.e. he'll simply lineup in a static 3-4, the way you draw up for kids in Pop Warner. Easy for the OL to block if they know where everyone is going to be... presnap movement, and variable fronts gives the defense the advantage of creating angles and causing confusion in the opponents blocking scheme. Static presnap alignment negates that.

[Sparkey]

Yes, the players are miscast... and Kampman will be sprinting for the door as soon as FA opens up next year; but, the change needed to be made IMO.

You can do so much more with a 3-4 than you can with a 4-3, although the transition is going to be painful from time to time. As I've been saying since they announced they were changing schemes, we're going to have to expect growing pains.

With the exception of this years draft class, they drafted all of their current players to play in a 4-3 - and most of them sucked in that... it is unrealistic to think that average, to below average players best suited for a 4-3, could be plugged into a 3-4 and expect them to excel.

Beyond that, I do have concerns about Capers... good coach, but he has a tendency to go conservative. In his defense, what we're seeing in terms of his conservative game plans and play calling could be a function of the miscast personnel, but I haven't been overly impressed with his job performance thru the first 4 games. Capers is no Rex Ryan, that's for sure.

yea, lets compare the resume of Dom Capers vs. Rex Ryan and see who comes out on top. I still think MM is reigning in the real Dom.

One of the advantages of running a 3-4 is that you can give a multitude of different presnap looks and send a much greater variety of blitzes...

Capers has a tendency to get conservative, i.e. he'll simply lineup in a static 3-4, the way you draw up for kids in Pop Warner. Easy for the OL to block if they know where everyone is going to be... presnap movement, and variable fronts gives the defense the advantage of creating angles and causing confusion in the opponents blocking scheme. Static presnap alignment negates that.

In defense of Capers, early in the game, it looked like guys were lost on some of the plays. I think it would be hard for Capers to call a lot of deception schemes if his own players have no clue what they are doing.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Not ready to give up on Barnett in this scheme, but he is not healthy yet. He had a play in Phoenix I think (his first preseason game back) that had him sliding down the line left shadowing the RB. When the back cut and hit the hole, Barnett could have planted and went at him, but he took one or two extra hop steps while turning back to the hole to get his feet set. It looked to me like he wanted nothing to do with planting on his repaired leg.

Its going to take until much deeper into the season before he is comfortable with that knee.

Completely agree. It's almost always the case that it's 2 yrs after the injury before a player comes back after a knee injury like that. Tough to judge a guy too harshly coming back from a knee injury. Although that 7.5 second play was frustrating with his running around.

[denverYooper]

Nutz, great thread.

Agree with KYP, Matthews should be starting every down now (not just nickel) and Poppinga should only go in if there is a shooting.

Disagree with Nutz on Raji, he was projected as Nose in the pros before the Packers even made the coaching change. Scouts can be wrong, but I am not sure we have seen enough to know his best spot in a D he hasn't played in the pros.

Not ready to give up on Barnett in this scheme, but he is not healthy yet. He had a play in Phoenix I think (his first preseason game back) that had him sliding down the line left shadowing the RB. When the back cut and hit the hole, Barnett could have planted and went at him, but he took one or two extra hop steps while turning back to the hole to get his feet set. It looked to me like he wanted nothing to do with planting on his repaired leg.

Its going to take until much deeper into the season before he is comfortable with that knee.

One scheme/coverage note. Mark Chmura noted on two plays (one by Woodson and one by Harris) that they passed along a receiver deep and outside to a single safety coverage. He called this coverage Cover (1 or 3*) Lightning. Both plays resulted in long gains along the sideline if I am thinking of the same plays he is.

He explained that the other safety has come up to fill another zone, run support or blitz and that this leaves a single safety deep in the middle. The cornerbacks no longer have just the short zones outside, but must go with the receiver deep if they stay outside. Chmura said both Harris and Woodson released their guys too early and should have turned and run with them.

*don't remember which

Martin gets called out on a few big plays in
"After further review" (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091006/PKR01/91006224/1058) this week. Apparently, he was playing Cover 3 on the 31 yarder to Berrian and was supposed to be in Cover 2 behind Harris.

I think he made Al Harris look bad on a few other plays where he wasn't in the right position.

[denverYooper]

Yes, the players are miscast... and Kampman will be sprinting for the door as soon as FA opens up next year; but, the change needed to be made IMO.

You can do so much more with a 3-4 than you can with a 4-3, although the transition is going to be painful from time to time. As I've been saying since they announced they were changing schemes, we're going to have to expect growing pains.

With the exception of this years draft class, they drafted all of their current players to play in a 4-3 - and most of them sucked in that... it is unrealistic to think that average, to below average players best suited for a 4-3, could be plugged into a 3-4 and expect them to excel.

Beyond that, I do have concerns about Capers... good coach, but he has a tendency to go conservative. In his defense, what we're seeing in terms of his conservative game plans and play calling could be a function of the miscast personnel, but I haven't been overly impressed with his job performance thru the first 4 games. Capers is no Rex Ryan, that's for sure.

yea, lets compare the resume of Dom Capers vs. Rex Ryan and see who comes out on top. I still think MM is reigning in the real Dom.

One of the advantages of running a 3-4 is that you can give a multitude of different presnap looks and send a much greater variety of blitzes...

Capers has a tendency to get conservative, i.e. he'll simply lineup in a static 3-4, the way you draw up for kids in Pop Warner. Easy for the OL to block if they know where everyone is going to be... presnap movement, and variable fronts gives the defense the advantage of creating angles and causing confusion in the opponents blocking scheme. Static presnap alignment negates that.

In defense of Capers, early in the game, it looked like guys were lost on some of the plays. I think it would be hard for Capers to call a lot of deception schemes if his own players have no clue what they are doing.

Totally agree. I think he did what he could.

[bobblehead]

Anyone who has dvr'd the game, you have to go re-watch the play where Favre had like 7.3 seconds to throw the ball. They show an angle from behind the Vikings line and if you watch Barnett, it is freakin hilarious.

He steps in, like a fake rush (but a terrible fake) then steps back a few steps, turns in a circle (lookin around like wth am I supposed to be)steps up then goes back again. Chiken with his head cut off type of play.

On that note, Barnett is not suited to play in a 3-4 defense. He is best asset is (or was) his speed and ability to run sideline to sideline and make plays. However, in a 3-4 the ilb's do not need to run side to side. They need to be agressive and meet plays head on and use their strength to attack. Yes, he lead the team in tackles vs Minny, but how many were 4 or more yards downfield ?

Barnett is totally miscast in his current role. In my opinion, the best LB group for the pack would be Chillar, Bishop, Hawk and Matthews.

Matthews shows flashes of what he will eventually be capable of doing, once he gets a few more games under his belt.

Hawk is now the lb that does the grunt work inside. So his tackle numbers will suffer, but he rarely is out of place.

Kampmann was a great DE in a 4-3, he currently a liability in Capers 3-4 (at least based on how he is being used at this point.) Chillar has shown he is a better blitzer, so far.)

Snake totally agrees. Barnett is horrible in this new 3-4. Bench his ass (fuck his contract) and bring up my man Bishop. Barnett in 4 games looks clueless. Matthews (a rook mind you) makes plays...Hawk is ok. Chillar is a beast. Kampy is SO FUCKING LOST. Bring up the Bishop. What do they have to lose?

How many more times does Chillar have to get beat to a bloody pulp in pass coverage before you agree he's not a beast? The guy isn't that great. Sure he makes plays, some for the Packers, some for the Packers opponent. The worst team in the NFL - using a backup QB mind you - made Chillar look like a pee-wee backup. I don't think he deserves all the credit he's getting.

I'd bring up Bishop in place of Barnett from time to time, that's worth a look. But as far as Kampy goes, who BTW is amongst the team leaders in tackles despite looking lost, who would you replace him with? Poppinga? Jeremy Thompson? We're kinda stuck there, for this year anyway. And we had better pray that Kampy doesn't get himself injured for any length of time.

I thought pass coverage was the only thing he was good at 4 weeks ago...no?? Look, he has broken down in coverage about as often as Barnett. They don't even want Hawk on the field in coverage anymore. Top it off he was lining up at safety most of the Rams game and being asked to make coverages that an LB doesn't normally make....in this game too a few times.

Maybe I'm watching a different game, but Chillar and Mathews are the only two linebackers I'm satisfied with to date. I won't call Chillar the best LB atm cuz that belongs to Mathews.

[pbmax]

Nutz, great thread.

Agree with KYP, Matthews should be starting every down now (not just nickel) and Poppinga should only go in if there is a shooting.

Disagree with Nutz on Raji, he was projected as Nose in the pros before the Packers even made the coaching change. Scouts can be wrong, but I am not sure we have seen enough to know his best spot in a D he hasn't played in the pros.

Not ready to give up on Barnett in this scheme, but he is not healthy yet. He had a play in Phoenix I think (his first preseason game back) that had him sliding down the line left shadowing the RB. When the back cut and hit the hole, Barnett could have planted and went at him, but he took one or two extra hop steps while turning back to the hole to get his feet set. It looked to me like he wanted nothing to do with planting on his repaired leg.

Its going to take until much deeper into the season before he is comfortable with that knee.

One scheme/coverage note. Mark Chmura noted on two plays (one by Woodson and one by Harris) that they passed along a receiver deep and outside to a single safety coverage. He called this coverage Cover (1 or 3*) Lightning. Both plays resulted in long gains along the sideline if I am thinking of the same plays he is.

He explained that the other safety has come up to fill another zone, run support or blitz and that this leaves a single safety deep in the middle. The cornerbacks no longer have just the short zones outside, but must go with the receiver deep if they stay outside. Chmura said both Harris and Woodson released their guys too early and should have turned and run with them.

*don't remember which

Martin gets called out on a few big plays in
"After further review" (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091006/PKR01/91006224/1058) this week. Apparently, he was playing Cover 3 on the 31 yarder to Berrian and was supposed to be in Cover 2 behind Harris.

I think he made Al Harris look bad on a few other plays where he wasn't in the right position.
That makes sense, especially since it led to his benching. Chmura (if this was one of the plays he was speaking of) must have seen Cover 3, but if the Press Gazette is right (and McGinn makes a similar observation today as well) then Martin was in the wrong spot.

[bobblehead]

Yes, the players are miscast... and Kampman will be sprinting for the door as soon as FA opens up next year; but, the change needed to be made IMO.

You can do so much more with a 3-4 than you can with a 4-3, although the transition is going to be painful from time to time. As I've been saying since they announced they were changing schemes, we're going to have to expect growing pains.

With the exception of this years draft class, they drafted all of their current players to play in a 4-3 - and most of them sucked in that... it is unrealistic to think that average, to below average players best suited for a 4-3, could be plugged into a 3-4 and expect them to excel.

Beyond that, I do have concerns about Capers... good coach, but he has a tendency to go conservative. In his defense, what we're seeing in terms of his conservative game plans and play calling could be a function of the miscast personnel, but I haven't been overly impressed with his job performance thru the first 4 games. Capers is no Rex Ryan, that's for sure.

yea, lets compare the resume of Dom Capers vs. Rex Ryan and see who comes out on top. I still think MM is reigning in the real Dom.

One of the advantages of running a 3-4 is that you can give a multitude of different presnap looks and send a much greater variety of blitzes...

Capers has a tendency to get conservative, i.e. he'll simply lineup in a static 3-4, the way you draw up for kids in Pop Warner. Easy for the OL to block if they know where everyone is going to be... presnap movement, and variable fronts gives the defense the advantage of creating angles and causing confusion in the opponents blocking scheme. Static presnap alignment negates that.

Your looking at 4 games....I'm looking at 15 years+. I don't believe Dom...all on his own went conservative. I think MM works the gameplan with him, or worse interjects during the game. Historically Dom is aggressive, suddenly he is not. Vanilla Bob was boring to a fault...the common denominator seems to be MM. (the same guy who forgets to call a running play after the first quarter)

[pbmax]

Your looking at 4 games....I'm looking at 15 years+. I don't believe Dom...all on his own went conservative. I think MM works the gameplan with him, or worse interjects during the game. Historically Dom is aggressive, suddenly he is not. Vanilla Bob was boring to a fault...the common denominator seems to be MM. (the same guy who forgets to call a running play after the first quarter)
Bobble, you are on weak ground here. McCarthy and Sanders said several times its the DC's game plan.

McCarthy himself has said he doesn't even spend much time in meetings with his DC since he is working on the O's game plan and play calling list.

Capers would not have taken a job where he could not run his defense the way he wanted to run it.

[HarveyWallbangers]

It's mostly Capers, I believe. I don't believe in the premise that we've been ultra-conservative either. Different game. Different gameplan. It seems to me we blitzed a lot against Chicago, and we blitzed early against Cincinnati. When Benson started running well, we tweaked the plan a bit. St. Louis has one guy that can beat you, Steven Jackson. That was the focus. Minnesota has the best RB on the planet, so you have to game plan him. They decided that blitzing could open things up against Peterson. Favre played a great game. The safety breakdowns didn't help, and I don't think they thought they'd go so little pressure rushing four. Choose your poison, I guess. If we blitz, and Peterson runs for 70 yards, then people would complain about that. I think you'll see more blitzing against Detroit (because they'll want to rattle the rookie) and Cleveland (because their running game is pretty anemic).

[wist43]

Yes, the players are miscast... and Kampman will be sprinting for the door as soon as FA opens up next year; but, the change needed to be made IMO.

You can do so much more with a 3-4 than you can with a 4-3, although the transition is going to be painful from time to time. As I've been saying since they announced they were changing schemes, we're going to have to expect growing pains.

With the exception of this years draft class, they drafted all of their current players to play in a 4-3 - and most of them sucked in that... it is unrealistic to think that average, to below average players best suited for a 4-3, could be plugged into a 3-4 and expect them to excel.

Beyond that, I do have concerns about Capers... good coach, but he has a tendency to go conservative. In his defense, what we're seeing in terms of his conservative game plans and play calling could be a function of the miscast personnel, but I haven't been overly impressed with his job performance thru the first 4 games. Capers is no Rex Ryan, that's for sure.

yea, lets compare the resume of Dom Capers vs. Rex Ryan and see who comes out on top. I still think MM is reigning in the real Dom.

One of the advantages of running a 3-4 is that you can give a multitude of different presnap looks and send a much greater variety of blitzes...

Capers has a tendency to get conservative, i.e. he'll simply lineup in a static 3-4, the way you draw up for kids in Pop Warner. Easy for the OL to block if they know where everyone is going to be... presnap movement, and variable fronts gives the defense the advantage of creating angles and causing confusion in the opponents blocking scheme. Static presnap alignment negates that.

Your looking at 4 games....I'm looking at 15 years+. I don't believe Dom...all on his own went conservative. I think MM works the gameplan with him, or worse interjects during the game. Historically Dom is aggressive, suddenly he is not. Vanilla Bob was boring to a fault...the common denominator seems to be MM. (the same guy who forgets to call a running play after the first quarter)

Not sure I'd put the blandness of the play calling on MM's doorstep... but it's certainly possible.

There is also the consideration that they have concerns on the back end, i.e. the revolving door at safety; but, to me, that would be all the more reason to go nuts up front in an effort to create more pressure.

Sending 4 out of a static alignment down after down certainly isn't the answer.

[MichiganPackerFan]

In defense of Capers, early in the game, it looked like guys were lost on some of the plays. I think it would be hard for Capers to call a lot of deception schemes if his own players have no clue what they are doing.

Im not sure that's actually defense of Capers: a big part of his job is to make sure the players know what they're supposed to do.

[Guiness]

Agree with HW's post above.

If someone had said before the game that we'd limit AP's yardage to xx (whatever it was) do you think that gives us the best chance to win the game, I would've answered yes.

We dared them to beat us with Brett at the controls, and they did. If we' pressured him more, I suspect we would've seen AP rip some runs.

[rbaloha1]

Anyone who has dvr'd the game, you have to go re-watch the play where Favre had like 7.3 seconds to throw the ball. They show an angle from behind the Vikings line and if you watch Barnett, it is freakin hilarious.

He steps in, like a fake rush (but a terrible fake) then steps back a few steps, turns in a circle (lookin around like wth am I supposed to be)steps up then goes back again. Chiken with his head cut off type of play.

On that note, Barnett is not suited to play in a 3-4 defense. He is best asset is (or was) his speed and ability to run sideline to sideline and make plays. However, in a 3-4 the ilb's do not need to run side to side. They need to be agressive and meet plays head on and use their strength to attack. Yes, he lead the team in tackles vs Minny, but how many were 4 or more yards downfield ?

Barnett is totally miscast in his current role. In my opinion, the best LB group for the pack would be Chillar, Bishop, Hawk and Matthews.

Matthews shows flashes of what he will eventually be capable of doing, once he gets a few more games under his belt.

Hawk is now the lb that does the grunt work inside. So his tackle numbers will suffer, but he rarely is out of place.

Kampmann was a great DE in a 4-3, he currently a liability in Capers 3-4 (at least based on how he is being used at this point.) Chillar has shown he is a better blitzer, so far.)

Snake totally agrees. Barnett is horrible in this new 3-4. Bench his ass (fuck his contract) and bring up my man Bishop. Barnett in 4 games looks clueless. Matthews (a rook mind you) makes plays...Hawk is ok. Chillar is a beast. Kampy is SO FUCKING LOST. Bring up the Bishop. What do they have to lose?

Ditto. Agree that MM is scared to blitz as much as DC really wants. Let Barnett pout and tweet.

[rbaloha1]

As Leroy Butler mentions the Packers needed to blitz Favre in obvious passing downs. The key was third down conversion--the Pack had the Vikings in predictable passing downs and consistently played cover 2.

Capers needs to bring fancy blitzes in obvious passing downs. What is the problem when the Pack possess 3 good cover corners?

[HarveyWallbangers]

As Leroy Butler mentions the Packers needed to blitz Favre in obvious passing downs. The key was third down conversion--the Pack had the Vikings in predictable passing downs and consistently played cover 2.

Capers needs to bring fancy blitzes in obvious passing downs. What is the problem when the Pack possess 3 good cover corners?

I think I'll rewatch the game in the next couple of days and see what we did on 3rd and long in the first half.

[pbmax]

Agree that MM is scared to blitz as much as DC really wants.
Evidence that McCarthy gets to change the D play call?

[pbmax]

Capers needs to bring fancy blitzes in obvious passing downs. What is the problem when the Pack possess 3 good cover corners?
3 good cover corners who would be playing zone if we blitz.

Capers played coverage on 3rd and long which is reasonable and it killed him from the last Viking drive of the first half until the 4th quarter. They players need to be able to play the coverage. A blitz doesn't help if someone is running free.

Favre wouldn't need time if they can't straighten out the coverage problems.

[mraynrand]

As Leroy Butler mentions the Packers needed to blitz Favre in obvious passing downs. The key was third down conversion--the Pack had the Vikings in predictable passing downs and consistently played cover 2.

Capers needs to bring fancy blitzes in obvious passing downs. What is the problem when the Pack possess 3 good cover corners?

I think I'll rewatch the game in the next couple of days and see what we did on 3rd and long in the first half.

first drive had 3rd and 1 3rd and 4; rusing first down and three yards bringing up 4th down , respectively
second drive 3rd and 14: three man rush, underneath throw, incomplete
third drive
3rd and 2 pass to rice, williams fell down
3rd and 11 - zone blitz, kamp in overage, barnett and matthews rush with jenkins and jolly - barnett got some pressure. Ball caught between harris and martin.
3rd and 11 - three man rush plus woodson off the corner. Zone blitz with Kamp and Jenkins dropping back. No pressure from Jolly, some from Chillar and Matthews. TD to Rice against Collins.


Final drive
3rd and 7 brought 6 - all three linebackers with a stunt - Barnett was held, chillar got some pressure; all three 'linemen' (kamp at LOLB, jolly, and jenkins were stoned). Favre just got the ball away. Matthews broke a double team from the LT and RB and almost got there. Complete to rice.

Harvin to the 4 came off a first down against a 3 man 'rush' 42 yard pass split woodson and martin coverage late. bogus Interference on Woddson's INT and ghost offside call against Bishop followed by TD next play from the 1.

[Bossman641]

When Favre has time, he can pick apart a defense’s weaknesses as well as anyone — which goes back to Woodson’s assertion the Packers could have brought more pressure. But when the Packers did rush more than four, on five of 29 dropbacks (17.2 percent), Favre was 5-for-5 for 61 yards, including two of the Vikings’ eight “explosive” pass plays of 16 yards or more, as well as Rice’s TD.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091006/PKR01/91006224/1058

[mraynrand]

When Favre has time, he can pick apart a defense’s weaknesses as well as anyone — which goes back to Woodson’s assertion the Packers could have brought more pressure. But when the Packers did rush more than four, on five of 29 dropbacks (17.2 percent), Favre was 5-for-5 for 61 yards, including two of the Vikings’ eight “explosive” pass plays of 16 yards or more, as well as Rice’s TD.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091006/PKR01/91006224/1058

The same thing happened to the 49ers. The thing that killed the Packers was the pass off of receivers in the zone coverage. All long plays were thrown between Harris or Woodson releasing their receiver to Martin (first half).

[mraynrand]

BTW, can anyone see Bishop offsides? This is .01 seconds before the snap.

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254/mraynrand/bullshitoffsidesonBishop.jpg

[Bossman641]

BTW, can anyone see Bishop offsides? This is .01 seconds before the snap.

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254/mraynrand/bullshitoffsidesonBishop.jpg

The offsides was on Bishop?

I thought it was on Poppinga. Is that BP lined up next to Jenkins?

[mraynrand]

The offsides was on Bishop?

I thought it was on Poppinga. Is that BP lined up next to Jenkins?

The announced call was on #55. They probably screwed up the number. Still, it was a bullshit call

[Deputy Nutz]

Nutz, great thread.

Agree with KYP, Matthews should be starting every down now (not just nickel) and Poppinga should only go in if there is a shooting.

Disagree with Nutz on Raji, he was projected as Nose in the pros before the Packers even made the coaching change. Scouts can be wrong, but I am not sure we have seen enough to know his best spot in a D he hasn't played in the pros.

Not ready to give up on Barnett in this scheme, but he is not healthy yet. He had a play in Phoenix I think (his first preseason game back) that had him sliding down the line left shadowing the RB. When the back cut and hit the hole, Barnett could have planted and went at him, but he took one or two extra hop steps while turning back to the hole to get his feet set. It looked to me like he wanted nothing to do with planting on his repaired leg.

Its going to take until much deeper into the season before he is comfortable with that knee.

One scheme/coverage note. Mark Chmura noted on two plays (one by Woodson and one by Harris) that they passed along a receiver deep and outside to a single safety coverage. He called this coverage Cover (1 or 3*) Lightning. Both plays resulted in long gains along the sideline if I am thinking of the same plays he is.

He explained that the other safety has come up to fill another zone, run support or blitz and that this leaves a single safety deep in the middle. The cornerbacks no longer have just the short zones outside, but must go with the receiver deep if they stay outside. Chmura said both Harris and Woodson released their guys too early and should have turned and run with them.

*don't remember which

I didn't start the thread, but to counter your point on Raji was that he was a defensive tackle that could take on a two gap scheme, play nose tackle in a 3-4 scheme, or a he had the quickness with the big body to also play a 3 technique in a 4-3. Raji is a pretty flexible interior defensive linemen, but at this point I would be excited to see both him and Pickett line up at the same time and protect our linebackers.

Again I look at our roster and it is mind boggling that we did nothing with free agency to bolster our defense for the switch to the 3-4. As a 4-3 team this defense would look pretty good on paper with Kampy at LDE, Pickett, Raji, with Jolly rotating in, and Jenkins at RDE. Hawk at wlb, Barnett at mlb, and Mathews at slb.

I would have liked to see the Packers use a hybrid 3-4 like what they use in Baltimore.

[Guiness]

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091006/PKR01/91006224/1058

Ok, who from here is posting in the comments section of the gazette?


The reason Smith was cut was he had terrible pad level. While Martin can't get into the right position, he has great pad level. That makes all the difference.

[packerbacker1234]

Barnett isn't doing that bad. Yeah, he looked bad on that 7.3 second snap: Did you bother looking at anyone else? Anytime a QB has 7.3 seconds to throw a ball the entire secondary looks bad, including the LB's. Barnett was not the only player that looked bad on that one play. There are also examples where barnett has looked really good in the 3-4, and you could say that about everyone.


Hawk: I think the coaches see something about him where he just isn't a every down LB. Yeah, his tackles are good and he looks good the few snaps he is out there, but maybe he looks good simply because he doesn't get a lot of snaps. The coaches may be on to something with Hawk: Reduce his snaps and he seems to play better. We all remember earlier in the year, and in preseason, that hawk just didn't look that good playing full time.

JUst saying, I trust the coaches here. If Barnett was reduced to 20 plays a game, he would most likely have similar numbers and look just as good. It's pretty easy to look good when you only gotta worry about 20 snaps, and your always fresh.

[rbaloha1]

Agree that MM is scared to blitz as much as DC really wants.
Evidence that McCarthy gets to change the D play call?

It may happen in the game planning -- not suggesting it happens during the game. Agree with Leroy Butler comments on how to attack #4.

[rbaloha1]

Barnett is feeling his way out there. Lets see what Bishop is capable of during game situations.

[ThunderDan]

Barnett isn't doing that bad. Yeah, he looked bad on that 7.3 second snap: Did you bother looking at anyone else? Anytime a QB has 7.3 seconds to throw a ball the entire secondary looks bad, including the LB's. Barnett was not the only player that looked bad on that one play. There are also examples where barnett has looked really good in the 3-4, and you could say that about everyone.


Hawk: I think the coaches see something about him where he just isn't a every down LB. Yeah, his tackles are good and he looks good the few snaps he is out there, but maybe he looks good simply because he doesn't get a lot of snaps. The coaches may be on to something with Hawk: Reduce his snaps and he seems to play better. We all remember earlier in the year, and in preseason, that hawk just didn't look that good playing full time.

JUst saying, I trust the coaches here. If Barnett was reduced to 20 plays a game, he would most likely have similar numbers and look just as good. It's pretty easy to look good when you only gotta worry about 20 snaps, and your always fresh.

Barnett has looked horrible this year. Hasn't recovered from the knee. He had 10 tackles in the game but I only remember 1.

Cutting down anybodies chances sure makes it hard to perform, fresh or not fresh.

Chillar has 26 total tackles to lead the team, Hawk is second with 23. Barnett has 22.

Chillar on the field > Barnett on the field > Hawk on the field

[pbmax]

5 men down, the right end looks like he is much further forward than guy on his left (Jenkins?).

LB standing up on D's left (Poppinga or Kamp) is not. Has to be the last guy with hand on ground on D's right.


BTW, can anyone see Bishop offsides? This is .01 seconds before the snap.

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254/mraynrand/bullshitoffsidesonBishop.jpg

[mraynrand]

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091006/PKR01/91006224/1058

Ok, who from here is posting in the comments section of the gazette?


The reason Smith was cut was he had terrible pad level. While Martin can't get into the right position, he has great pad level. That makes all the difference.

It was probably Stubby posting. He looks a little bit like a cow.

[mraynrand]

5 men down, the right end looks like he is much further forward than guy on his left (Jenkins?).

LB standing up on D's left (Poppinga or Kamp) is not. Has to be the last guy with hand on ground on D's right.


BTW, can anyone see Bishop offsides? This is .01 seconds before the snap.

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254/mraynrand/bullshitoffsidesonBishop.jpg

It had to be a ticky tack call. I hate that crap. BTW, I was watchig the '96 game at Minnesota and realized they changed the 'Vikings' in the endzone from Stencil to some sort of norse script. How nouveau. Hopefully the next time they have a game, their the fucking roof will deflate and destroy their whole fucking field.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The best and the brightest in this forum were saying last summer that Kampman was set to excel in the 3-4. Where do I turn to now for guidance?

[Scott Campbell]

The best and the brightest in this forum were saying last summer that Kampman was set to excel in the 3-4. Where do I turn to now for guidance?


The same place you always turn - Rosie O'Donnell.

[Rastak]

Offside isn't ticky-tacky. It's boolean. You either are or you aren't. No grey area. That picture is a terrible angle for judging the call I might add.

[Scott Campbell]

Offside isn't ticky-tacky. It's boolean. You either are or you aren't. No grey area. That picture is a terrible angle for judging the call I might add.


You guys got some pretty good home cookin on Monday. I loved how the time keeper tried to run the last second off the clock at the end of the first half. Is that a league guy, or do the Vikings hire somebody to push the button?

[rbaloha1]

The best and the brightest in this forum were saying last summer that Kampman was set to excel in the 3-4. Where do I turn to now for guidance?

Appears absurd now.

[Rastak]

Offside isn't ticky-tacky. It's boolean. You either are or you aren't. No grey area. That picture is a terrible angle for judging the call I might add.


You guys got some pretty good home cookin on Monday. I loved how the time keeper tried to run the last second off the clock at the end of the first half. Is that a league guy, or do the Vikings hire somebody to push the button?


Well, I've seen that swing the other way. I found it amusing the time the NFL admitted they missed 8 calls in the fourth quarter at Lambeau a few years back. All 8 going against the Vikings. Man, that was the most obvious stuff I ever saw.

As for that last second thing, I looked up as the guy hit the ground and it was zero.... Haven't see the replay I must admit. My thought at the time was "how do you call a timeout before you hit the ground?".

[mraynrand]

Offside isn't ticky-tacky. It's boolean. You either are or you aren't. No grey area. That picture is a terrible angle for judging the call I might add.


You guys got some pretty good home cookin on Monday. I loved how the time keeper tried to run the last second off the clock at the end of the first half. Is that a league guy, or do the Vikings hire somebody to push the button?


Well, I've seen that swing the other way. I found it amusing the time the NFL admitted they missed 8 calls in the fourth quarter at Lambeau a few years back. All 8 going against the Vikings. Man, that was the most obvious stuff I ever saw.

As for that last second thing, I looked up as the guy hit the ground and it was zero.... Haven't see the replay I must admit. My thought at the time was "how do you call a timeout before you hit the ground?".

Those refs were boolean.

[mraynrand]

The best and the brightest in this forum were saying last summer that Kampman was set to excel in the 3-4. Where do I turn to now for guidance?

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2007/football/nfl/03/25/theismann.removal/T1_0325_theismann.jpg

[Deputy Nutz]

The best and the brightest in this forum were saying last summer that Kampman was set to excel in the 3-4. Where do I turn to now for guidance?

Appears absurd now.

Well I was saying if they were going to use him as a hybrid defensive end. Sometimes up sometimes with his hand down, unfortunately they don't do that. I figured he would be used like Suggs in Baltimore

It is not that he isn't a good outside linebacker, he is average. the problem is that he isn't as good a linebacker as he is an end.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I, who am widely regarded as knowing very little about football, thought Kampman's was unlikely to be not as good as before. That's just because there is a small difference between players in the pros, and you take any guy out of his element .....

[rbaloha1]

The best and the brightest in this forum were saying last summer that Kampman was set to excel in the 3-4. Where do I turn to now for guidance?

Appears absurd now.

Well I was saying if they were going to use him as a hybrid defensive end. Sometimes up sometimes with his hand down, unfortunately they don't do that. I figured he would be used like Suggs in Baltimore

It is not that he isn't a good outside linebacker, he is average. the problem is that he isn't as good a linebacker as he is an end.

Agreed. Its sad to watch a premier player struggling in an obvious weakness.

[mraynrand]

The problem with Kampman seems to be with the zone blitz aspect, where he drops back in coverage, with or without Jenkins, and the other LBs rush in there. The ZB is supposed to create havoc for protections and confuse the O-line. If the blitzing linebackers can't disrupt, then you have Kampy looking like a fool dropping in coverage. But that would be true of any OLB in a ZB that doesn't work. Either the scheme didn't work (no confusion, missed blocking assignments), the other LBs suck getting to the QB, the QB is good at getting the ball out, or a combination of the three. If the ZB sucks, then wouldn't it be better to just let Kamp stay on the line and rush the QB as much as possible?

[denverYooper]

Offside isn't ticky-tacky. It's boolean. You either are or you aren't. No grey area. That picture is a terrible angle for judging the call I might add.

There's a gray area because it still depends on human judgment. It's actually more of a sigmoid curve after compression of all of the complex inputs involved: retina + LGN + V1 + past experience + <stickin' it to 'em> + ...

So, is the input from component S(0), "Stickin' it to 'em" sufficient to push the sigmoidal decision function over 0,0 and cause a flag to be thrown?

[Deputy Nutz]

The problem with Kampman seems to be with the zone blitz aspect, where he drops back in coverage, with or without Jenkins, and the other LBs rush in there. The ZB is supposed to create havoc for protections and confuse the O-line. If the blitzing linebackers can't disrupt, then you have Kampy looking like a fool dropping in coverage. But that would be true of any OLB in a ZB that doesn't work. Either the scheme didn't work (no confusion, missed blocking assignments), the other LBs suck getting to the QB, the QB is good at getting the ball out, or a combination of the three. If the ZB sucks, then wouldn't it be better to just let Kamp stay on the line and rush the QB as much as possible?

I am down with this.

[wist43]

The best and the brightest in this forum were saying last summer that Kampman was set to excel in the 3-4. Where do I turn to now for guidance?

What are you saying Harlan, that I'm not among the best and brightest??? lol :lol:

[Waldo]

While at times does look bad at coverage, he has not been abused.

Kamp's run stopping has drastically improved since PS. He was a joke in PS, he's looking pretty good right now there.

Hypothetical #'s here:

Say Kamp rushes 30 times a game and drops 10 times a game. He gets no pressure when he rushes or drops.

Are those 10 drops going to be the difference, is he going to generate pressure on those.

Last year he was double teamed. This year it is the scheme. At some point people need to admit that Kamp isn't a very good pass rusher. He's not a move around, terrorize type rusher. He isn't a hit the QB in 2.5 sec rusher. He isn't a dominated, or smoked 'em type rusher. He is a beneficiary of flushed QB's and coverage rusher.

Most of the real good ones are naturals, and can do it from the get go. Kamp wasn't even draftable his #'s were so bad. But he ran an eye popping 40, and the Pack took a chance. Took him years to be more than a run stopping DE though. Matthews isn't really a natural either, but he's got that football player/linebacker mentality, kind of a thing like his dad had, which is still a very valuable kind of guy to have. Brad Jones is a natural. He could get after it the second he stepped on the field in PS. Haven't seen that degree of natural ability since young KGB. I would not be disappointed at all if we started subbing Jones in at LOLB in some passing situations.

[Fosco33]

It's mostly Capers, I believe. I don't believe in the premise that we've been ultra-conservative either. Different game. Different gameplan. It seems to me we blitzed a lot against Chicago, and we blitzed early against Cincinnati. When Benson started running well, we tweaked the plan a bit. St. Louis has one guy that can beat you, Steven Jackson. That was the focus. Minnesota has the best RB on the planet, so you have to game plan him. They decided that blitzing could open things up against Peterson. Favre played a great game. The safety breakdowns didn't help, and I don't think they thought they'd go so little pressure rushing four. Choose your poison, I guess. If we blitz, and Peterson runs for 70 yards, then people would complain about that. I think you'll see more blitzing against Detroit (because they'll want to rattle the rookie) and Cleveland (because their running game is pretty anemic).

I totally agree. But why didn't we adjust to Favre playing lights out and take the risk of AP taking one off... Couldn't we have balanced the scheme and kept the Vikes O on their toes?

[Waldo]

It's mostly Capers, I believe. I don't believe in the premise that we've been ultra-conservative either. Different game. Different gameplan. It seems to me we blitzed a lot against Chicago, and we blitzed early against Cincinnati. When Benson started running well, we tweaked the plan a bit. St. Louis has one guy that can beat you, Steven Jackson. That was the focus. Minnesota has the best RB on the planet, so you have to game plan him. They decided that blitzing could open things up against Peterson. Favre played a great game. The safety breakdowns didn't help, and I don't think they thought they'd go so little pressure rushing four. Choose your poison, I guess. If we blitz, and Peterson runs for 70 yards, then people would complain about that. I think you'll see more blitzing against Detroit (because they'll want to rattle the rookie) and Cleveland (because their running game is pretty anemic).

I totally agree. But why didn't we adjust to Favre playing lights out and take the risk of AP taking one off... Couldn't we have balanced the scheme and kept the Vikes O on their toes?

We actually did. We didn't play 8 in the box very much. Collins might have crept a bit closer as a rover, but he has the make up speed to do that and still man a deep zone.

Favre abused the same thing that Boller and Palmer did. The guy replacing Bigby.

Almost every TD that we have given up all season, and almost every big play, have been partially or fully the fault of the guy replacing Bigby.

[Deputy Nutz]

While at times does look bad at coverage, he has not been abused.

Kamp's run stopping has drastically improved since PS. He was a joke in PS, he's looking pretty good right now there.

Hypothetical #'s here:

Say Kamp rushes 30 times a game and drops 10 times a game. He gets no pressure when he rushes or drops.

Are those 10 drops going to be the difference, is he going to generate pressure on those.

Last year he was double teamed. This year it is the scheme. At some point people need to admit that Kamp isn't a very good pass rusher. He's not a move around, terrorize type rusher. He isn't a hit the QB in 2.5 sec rusher. He isn't a dominated, or smoked 'em type rusher. He is a beneficiary of flushed QB's and coverage rusher.

Most of the real good ones are naturals, and can do it from the get go. Kamp wasn't even draftable his #'s were so bad. But he ran an eye popping 40, and the Pack took a chance. Took him years to be more than a run stopping DE though. Matthews isn't really a natural either, but he's got that football player/linebacker mentality, kind of a thing like his dad had, which is still a very valuable kind of guy to have. Brad Jones is a natural. He could get after it the second he stepped on the field in PS. Haven't seen that degree of natural ability since young KGB. I would not be disappointed at all if we started subbing Jones in at LOLB in some passing situations.

I understand your point, but the fact is he registered a shit load of sacks the past 3 years. If I remember right he was drafted as a defensive tackle with the hope that he was going to put on weight. I like Kampman because he is a combination of speed and bullrush off the corner. Is he Freeney? No, he isn't even Julius Peppers, but very few pass rushers will ever be LT or Reggie White. What made Kampy above average was that he could clog the run and get after the QB, especially when there is a guy in the middle that can get penetration. Kampman never gets dominated at the line of scrimmage as a pass rusher, he may not have the moves or the ability to change direction, but he gets up field and makes the QB move around in the pocket. It also takes at least two good defensive pass rushers for one to shine.

Brad Jones is a linebacker, he is not a defensive end asked to play linebacker. Funny how you can be down about a veteran that was 3rd in the league in sacks over the past 4 years, but are praising a 7th round draft pick for his natural ability. There have been a ton of football players come through this organization with natural ability, some get better, but most fail because it takes more than natural ability to stay in this league. This league is about production. I like Jones, I am glad he was kept on the roster, but he is a next year player if he keeps developing. He is a bit small at 230 pounds, not saying that he couldn't play OLB at that weight, but it would be to his benefit to put on 10 to 15 pounds of muscle.

[Fosco33]

It's mostly Capers, I believe. I don't believe in the premise that we've been ultra-conservative either. Different game. Different gameplan. It seems to me we blitzed a lot against Chicago, and we blitzed early against Cincinnati. When Benson started running well, we tweaked the plan a bit. St. Louis has one guy that can beat you, Steven Jackson. That was the focus. Minnesota has the best RB on the planet, so you have to game plan him. They decided that blitzing could open things up against Peterson. Favre played a great game. The safety breakdowns didn't help, and I don't think they thought they'd go so little pressure rushing four. Choose your poison, I guess. If we blitz, and Peterson runs for 70 yards, then people would complain about that. I think you'll see more blitzing against Detroit (because they'll want to rattle the rookie) and Cleveland (because their running game is pretty anemic).

I totally agree. But why didn't we adjust to Favre playing lights out and take the risk of AP taking one off... Couldn't we have balanced the scheme and kept the Vikes O on their toes?

We actually did. We didn't play 8 in the box very much. Collins might have crept a bit closer as a rover, but he has the make up speed to do that and still man a deep zone.

Favre abused the same thing that Boller and Palmer did. The guy replacing Bigby.

Almost every TD that we have given up all season, and almost every big play, have been partially or fully the fault of the guy replacing Bigby.

Interesting. When I see 8 in the box, I presume for run protection and slants, quick outs, screens, etc. Favre was chucking it downfield... why not more nickle or even dimes? The over the top protection - middle/deep was piss poor.

How many 3rd and 10's were completed by the Vikes?

I totally agree on the safety issue - mentioned it a few times myself in the game thread. And I agree with CW's comments after the game.

What worries me the most... we have 2 gaping issues (Oline -left side; Deep coverage) and teams are appropriately game planning. Outside the first 2 series for Arod or 1st/2nd down defense; we haven't done enough to counter these issues.

[Fosco33]

I'd be willing to give NB more time to heal while we play 2 weaker opponents (and have the bye). I'm not sure if it's his lack of PS and exposure to the scheme or a weak knee - but he doesn't look the same - at all. He looked lost in pass coverage (giving up a TD in the red zone) and totally whiffed in numerous run coverage plays. I'd be much happier with Bishop at this point. Chillar is jag; I appreciate Popp's work ethic but I've never been a fan.

I agree with most that the rook should get more time.

I'm ok with Hawk as it's a transition year - he's still a starter on most teams.

RE: Kamp - he's starting to adjust better and still got in the backfield more than the down DL when he was lining up on the outside line. Game by game he's looking better - can't fault him for improving. By season's end, he'll be a decent out of position player. I don't think we franchise him and we'll probably lose him to another team (really wish you could get value for him).

[SnakeLH2006]

Anyone who has dvr'd the game, you have to go re-watch the play where Favre had like 7.3 seconds to throw the ball. They show an angle from behind the Vikings line and if you watch Barnett, it is freakin hilarious.

He steps in, like a fake rush (but a terrible fake) then steps back a few steps, turns in a circle (lookin around like wth am I supposed to be)steps up then goes back again. Chiken with his head cut off type of play.

On that note, Barnett is not suited to play in a 3-4 defense. He is best asset is (or was) his speed and ability to run sideline to sideline and make plays. However, in a 3-4 the ilb's do not need to run side to side. They need to be agressive and meet plays head on and use their strength to attack. Yes, he lead the team in tackles vs Minny, but how many were 4 or more yards downfield ?

Barnett is totally miscast in his current role. In my opinion, the best LB group for the pack would be Chillar, Bishop, Hawk and Matthews.

Matthews shows flashes of what he will eventually be capable of doing, once he gets a few more games under his belt.

Hawk is now the lb that does the grunt work inside. So his tackle numbers will suffer, but he rarely is out of place.

Kampmann was a great DE in a 4-3, he currently a liability in Capers 3-4 (at least based on how he is being used at this point.) Chillar has shown he is a better blitzer, so far.)

Snake totally agrees. Barnett is horrible in this new 3-4. Bench his ass (fuck his contract) and bring up my man Bishop. Barnett in 4 games looks clueless. Matthews (a rook mind you) makes plays...Hawk is ok. Chillar is a beast. Kampy is SO FUCKING LOST. Bring up the Bishop. What do they have to lose?

Ditto. Agree that MM is scared to blitz as much as DC really wants. Let Barnett pout and tweet.

QFT rbaloha.

I have tons of buds from Green Bay that have seen/see Barnett at the clubs constantly fighting over fat white trash chicks. Yeah, he doesn't get in trouble for the most part, but that seems his mission. So many stories of him the nite after a game sitting with his phone Twittering away as 2 fat white chicks duke it out. Personally, I could care less about what Nick does after practice/games...but with his Twitter shit, it puts in in perspective. That dude (Nick Barnett) is fat and happy with his contract.

Snake looks at games. Dude is as non-descript as AJ Hawk lately. I could care less about his knee injury. Those things are healed in 6 months lately in recent medicine. I don't think he cares about football knowing he's paid for 4 more years.

Give a hungry beast who makes plays a shot (Bishop). Barnett was pretty fantastic 3 years ago in 2006 till he got paid. Fat and lazy...forget his injury. He doesn't want to get hurt again now that he's long term. He's tentative and not looking at making plays anymore with a long-term contract. Bishop is hungry and was the MVP of 3 of the 4 preseason games this year. Play the fucker.

Snake is a straight up dude. I'll tell you how it is. Peeps (friends) respect me for this. Bishop should play. Barnett should sit. But that won't happen. MM is bullheaded (OLine with the musical chairs) and is too much a pussy to cause locker room drama. Bishop tore up the last 2 preseasons and Special Teams play with tackles/hits. That guy (Bishop) is fired up and makes plays. Barnett might be hampered with his injury to a little extent, but I've seen him lay off tackles cuz he doesn't want to get hurt. Bishop puts his fucking body on the line. Play him. MM has no nutz or soul. We'll prob. end up 6-10 again with his BS. I'm done with MM. He has no balls to upset the monetary hierarchy...even JSOnline said as much.....

[Pugger]

I'm not surprised to see our D struggle at times. This is a whole new scheme and we all knew there would be bumps in the road. Considering how woeful our O line has been and our D still working out the kinks it is a wonder we are 2-2 right now. We have a lot of football yet to be played. Often teams turn things around after a bye.

:cow:

[bobblehead]

Your looking at 4 games....I'm looking at 15 years+. I don't believe Dom...all on his own went conservative. I think MM works the gameplan with him, or worse interjects during the game. Historically Dom is aggressive, suddenly he is not. Vanilla Bob was boring to a fault...the common denominator seems to be MM. (the same guy who forgets to call a running play after the first quarter)
Bobble, you are on weak ground here. McCarthy and Sanders said several times its the DC's game plan.

McCarthy himself has said he doesn't even spend much time in meetings with his DC since he is working on the O's game plan and play calling list.

Capers would not have taken a job where he could not run his defense the way he wanted to run it.

and MM never gives bland and/or misleading answers does he. If you believe everything they say, then TT was interested in Michael Vick...yea right.

[mmmdk]

I'm not surprised to see our D struggle at times. This is a whole new scheme and we all knew there would be bumps in the road. Considering how woeful our O line has been and our D still working out the kinks it is a wonder we are 2-2 right now. We have a lot of football yet to be played. Often teams turn things around after a bye.

:cow:

Packers 7-3 after bye last 10 seasons:

2008: 16-19 OT loss at Titans (6-10, 2-7 after bye)
2007: 19-13 OT win at Broncos (13-3, 8-2 after bye)
2006: 34-24 win at Dolphins (8-8, 7-4 after bye)
2005: 20-23 loss at Vikings (4-12, 3-8 after bye)
2004: 34-31 win vs Vikings (10-6, 6-2 after bye)
2003: 30-27 win at Vikings (10-6, 7-2 after bye)
2002: 24-10 win vs Dolphins (12-4, 6-3 after bye)
2001: 21-20 win vs Bucs (12-4, 8-2 after bye)
2000: 20-28 loss at Dolphins (9-7, 6-3 after bye)
1999: 26-23 win vs Bucs (8-8, 6-7 after bye)

An after the bye win or loss might point to where the Packer season really is going.

Note: Wow, 3 times each Vikes & Fish games after bye in just 10 seasons :shock:

[bobblehead]

5 men down, the right end looks like he is much further forward than guy on his left (Jenkins?).

LB standing up on D's left (Poppinga or Kamp) is not. Has to be the last guy with hand on ground on D's right.


BTW, can anyone see Bishop offsides? This is .01 seconds before the snap.

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254/mraynrand/bullshitoffsidesonBishop.jpg

Based on that picture the center looks offsides based on the purple line...of course he moves the ball forward when he sets which makes him onsides. No packer is offsides of the liine of scrimmage in that picture, although the top right man down in his stance may be lined up neutral to where the center moved the ball. I noticed the networks showd the PI on woodson and said it was a weak call, but they didn't even touch the offsides call.

[bobblehead]

Offside isn't ticky-tacky. It's boolean. You either are or you aren't. No grey area. That picture is a terrible angle for judging the call I might add.


You guys got some pretty good home cookin on Monday. I loved how the time keeper tried to run the last second off the clock at the end of the first half. Is that a league guy, or do the Vikings hire somebody to push the button?


Well, I've seen that swing the other way. I found it amusing the time the NFL admitted they missed 8 calls in the fourth quarter at Lambeau a few years back. All 8 going against the Vikings. Man, that was the most obvious stuff I ever saw.

As for that last second thing, I looked up as the guy hit the ground and it was zero.... Haven't see the replay I must admit. My thought at the time was "how do you call a timeout before you hit the ground?".

I'd like to see documentation of taht one....8 calls in a quarter and the league admitted it?? Usually they read the QB's mind and conclude it was a safety rather than admit they botched it.

Anyway, at that time I'm sure the great BF was our QB and we definately got more calls back then.

[bobblehead]

Last year he was double teamed. This year it is the scheme. At some point people need to admit that Kamp isn't a very good pass rusher. He's not a move around, terrorize type rusher. He isn't a hit the QB in 2.5 sec rusher. He isn't a dominated, or smoked 'em type rusher. He is a beneficiary of flushed QB's and coverage rusher.


Tell that to the NO saints. The year Kamp hit the QB in about 2.5 seconds twice in the first quarter one causing a fumble. That same season Jayson Taylor did the same thing to College starting at LT vs. Miami. Shortly afterwards Cliff Christl declared that Kampman just wasn't the same type of explosive player as JT was. Cliff...is that you?

edit...PS, that not very good pass rusher has exactly .5, as in one half less sack than Allen did over 4 years. (at least that is what I read...maybe it was 3 years. 37.5 to 37)

[bobblehead]

It's mostly Capers, I believe. I don't believe in the premise that we've been ultra-conservative either. Different game. Different gameplan. It seems to me we blitzed a lot against Chicago, and we blitzed early against Cincinnati. When Benson started running well, we tweaked the plan a bit. St. Louis has one guy that can beat you, Steven Jackson. That was the focus. Minnesota has the best RB on the planet, so you have to game plan him. They decided that blitzing could open things up against Peterson. Favre played a great game. The safety breakdowns didn't help, and I don't think they thought they'd go so little pressure rushing four. Choose your poison, I guess. If we blitz, and Peterson runs for 70 yards, then people would complain about that. I think you'll see more blitzing against Detroit (because they'll want to rattle the rookie) and Cleveland (because their running game is pretty anemic).

I totally agree. But why didn't we adjust to Favre playing lights out and take the risk of AP taking one off... Couldn't we have balanced the scheme and kept the Vikes O on their toes?

We actually did. We didn't play 8 in the box very much. Collins might have crept a bit closer as a rover, but he has the make up speed to do that and still man a deep zone.

Favre abused the same thing that Boller and Palmer did. The guy replacing Bigby.

Almost every TD that we have given up all season, and almost every big play, have been partially or fully the fault of the guy replacing Bigby.
Now this I agree with 100%

[ThunderDan]

5 men down, the right end looks like he is much further forward than guy on his left (Jenkins?).

LB standing up on D's left (Poppinga or Kamp) is not. Has to be the last guy with hand on ground on D's right.


BTW, can anyone see Bishop offsides? This is .01 seconds before the snap.

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254/mraynrand/bullshitoffsidesonBishop.jpg

Based on that picture the center looks offsides based on the purple line...of course he moves the ball forward when he sets which makes him onsides. No packer is offsides of the liine of scrimmage in that picture, although the top right man down in his stance may be lined up neutral to where the center moved the ball. I noticed the networks showd the PI on woodson and said it was a weak call, but they didn't even touch the offsides call.

The other issue I have with that is that if the Center is there and onsides the RT is too far off of the line of scrimmage and it should be an illegal formation.

[Rastak]

Offside isn't ticky-tacky. It's boolean. You either are or you aren't. No grey area. That picture is a terrible angle for judging the call I might add.


You guys got some pretty good home cookin on Monday. I loved how the time keeper tried to run the last second off the clock at the end of the first half. Is that a league guy, or do the Vikings hire somebody to push the button?


Well, I've seen that swing the other way. I found it amusing the time the NFL admitted they missed 8 calls in the fourth quarter at Lambeau a few years back. All 8 going against the Vikings. Man, that was the most obvious stuff I ever saw.

As for that last second thing, I looked up as the guy hit the ground and it was zero.... Haven't see the replay I must admit. My thought at the time was "how do you call a timeout before you hit the ground?".

I'd like to see documentation of taht one....8 calls in a quarter and the league admitted it?? Usually they read the QB's mind and conclude it was a safety rather than admit they botched it.

Anyway, at that time I'm sure the great BF was our QB and we definately got more calls back then.


The league keeps that stuff under wraps and Tice opened his mouth and I think the league was pretty pissed. Anyway, anyone with decent vision saw what happened that day. You show a picture at an angle and ask us to judge if a guy is offside....how in the hell can one do that? They can't.

Calls go different ways all the time. Vikings recovered a fumble and have possesion. Ben Steele pulls it away. Packers get the ball in a bull shit call.

So what? There were probably 10 other plays that could have turned the tide. I know Rice was asked about that PI call and he said Woodson made a nice play, grabbed him to push him back and get himself position. Letter of the law that's a flag. Was it a good call, not so sure.


Let me say this. Let's review the film and see every single call that was missed and at the end of the day see if we just went through a pointless exercise.

[Sparkey]

Offside isn't ticky-tacky. It's boolean. You either are or you aren't. No grey area. That picture is a terrible angle for judging the call I might add.


You guys got some pretty good home cookin on Monday. I loved how the time keeper tried to run the last second off the clock at the end of the first half. Is that a league guy, or do the Vikings hire somebody to push the button?


Well, I've seen that swing the other way. I found it amusing the time the NFL admitted they missed 8 calls in the fourth quarter at Lambeau a few years back. All 8 going against the Vikings. Man, that was the most obvious stuff I ever saw.

As for that last second thing, I looked up as the guy hit the ground and it was zero.... Haven't see the replay I must admit. My thought at the time was "how do you call a timeout before you hit the ground?".

I'd like to see documentation of taht one....8 calls in a quarter and the league admitted it?? Usually they read the QB's mind and conclude it was a safety rather than admit they botched it.

Anyway, at that time I'm sure the great BF was our QB and we definately got more calls back then.


The league keeps that stuff under wraps and Tice opened his mouth and I think the league was pretty pissed. Anyway, anyone with decent vision saw what happened that day. You show a picture at an angle and ask us to judge if a guy is offside....how in the hell can one do that? They can't.

Calls go different ways all the time. Vikings recovered a fumble and have possesion. Ben Steele pulls it away. Packers get the ball in a bull shit call.

So what? There were probably 10 other plays that could have turned the tide. I know Rice was asked about that PI call and he said Woodson made a nice play, grabbed him to push him back and get himself position. Letter of the law that's a flag. Was it a good call, not so sure.


Let me say this. Let's review the film and see every single call that was missed and at the end of the day see if we just went through a pointless exercise.

:roll: Why so defensive ?

[Rastak]

I like Defense!

[Sparkey]

I like Defense! :lol: