Exactly how many free agents are enough?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Ty has read repeatedly that TT doesn't sign free agents. Ty isn't convinced that is true.

Klemm, Pickett, Walker, Manual, roman, chillar, smith, woodson...not to mention free agents that weren't vets..guys like Lee.

So, exactly how many free agents should he be signing a year? Because it certainly seems that the argument is that we need to sign them regardless of how good they are...otherwise ty can't understand has we signed crappy Klemm and crappy Manual and crappy Smith.

[hoosier]

The biggest complaint, and the only valid one in my opinion, is that TT left the Packers without a viable second option at LT, when it was obvious that Clifton was far from a sure thing healthwise. And that the option he did leave, Colledge, requires the Packers to go back to shuffling the OL...not to mention that Colledge might well be just unable to play LT.

The question that TT critics need to address, then, is what FA options did TT have for getting a reserve LT? Who were the FA backup LTs he chose not to pursue, and what are they doing now? I confess that I don't have any recollection of what the OL free agency market was like last spring and this summer and couldn't answer this question myself.

Overall I find the failure to put together a high quality OL to be the biggest disappointment of the TT era. But I tend to think the blame falls on player development (and thus reflects badly on coaching staff) rather than on TT's refusal to go out and buy OL depth. Dependable LTs just don't hit the FA market.

[pbmax]

2.54 per year. Or two whole free agents plus Jarrett Bush.

Basically, 127 FAs every fifty years.

[bobblehead]

2.54 per year. Or two whole free agents plus Jarrett Bush.

Basically, 127 FAs every fifty years.

Ya know, I ran a spreadsheet with several factors going into it and I came up with these EXACT same numbers. :shock:

[retailguy]

The biggest complaint, and the only valid one in my opinion, is that TT left the Packers without a viable second option at LT, when it was obvious that Clifton was far from a sure thing healthwise. And that the option he did leave, Colledge, requires the Packers to go back to shuffling the OL...not to mention that Colledge might well be just unable to play LT.

The question that TT critics need to address, then, is what FA options did TT have for getting a reserve LT? Who were the FA backup LTs he chose not to pursue, and what are they doing now? I confess that I don't have any recollection of what the OL free agency market was like last spring and this summer and couldn't answer this question myself.

Overall I find the failure to put together a high quality OL to be the biggest disappointment of the TT era. But I tend to think the blame falls on player development (and thus reflects badly on coaching staff) rather than on TT's refusal to go out and buy OL depth. Dependable LTs just don't hit the FA market.

Well, off the top of my head (offensive tackles, not just LT's, I'm way too lazy for that):

Levi Jones
Orlando Pace
Stacy Andrews
Matt Birk
Jordan Black
George Foster
Jordan Gross - franchise? can't remember
Pete Kendall
Vernon Carey
Mike Goff
Chris Gray
Mark Tauscher
Seth McKinny
Jon Runyan
Tra Thomas
Fred Weary
Jon Welbourn
Kirk Chambers
Duke Preston - remember him?

Ok, I got the 1st 5, then I looked it up....

Also - Eagles traded for starting LT Jason Peters from Buffalo....

One other beef - Last season, we traded Williams - (I am fine with that). However, before training camp is even over, we have legal issues with Jolly, a back injury with Harrell, and something else, that I can't remember? KGB, maybe? Yet, we sought out ZERO help, even after Jenkins went down.

Can we blame him for that too, Hoosier? :wink:

[packerbacker1234]

The biggest complaint isn't just LT - it's that TT has failed, in 5 years, to replace the OL.

Say what you want about Spitz, College, and even Sitton: They are getting beat a crap ton as well. College has sucked at almos every position we have played him at, Spitz isn't even a better center then Wells, but the line just plays better overall with him out there. Sitton is young, but is getting beat, and Barbre has done nothing to make you think he has a future on this OL.

In short, the entire OL sucks, not just the backup LT situation. Two great guards left ages ago, and we have yet to replace them, and all we have been doing is telling our best center, wells, that even though you were good the last two seasons spitz has to play.

Just saying, TT has a mess overall at the OL area, and it falls squarly on him and poor drafting/FA signings for the entire line. Yeah, he got a good QB (people forget that Rodgers sort of fell into his lap at like, slot 24 when he was suppose to be a top 5 pick), and has a decent outing getting WR's. Outside of that, he hasn't drafted that great.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

The biggest complaint isn't just LT - it's that TT has failed, in 5 years, to replace the OL.

Say what you want about Spitz, College, and even Sitton: They are getting beat a crap ton as well. College has sucked at almos every position we have played him at, Spitz isn't even a better center then Wells, but the line just plays better overall with him out there. Sitton is young, but is getting beat, and Barbre has done nothing to make you think he has a future on this OL.

In short, the entire OL sucks, not just the backup LT situation. Two great guards left ages ago, and we have yet to replace them, and all we have been doing is telling our best center, wells, that even though you were good the last two seasons spitz has to play.

Just saying, TT has a mess overall at the OL area, and it falls squarly on him and poor drafting/FA signings for the entire line. Yeah, he got a good QB (people forget that Rodgers sort of fell into his lap at like, slot 24 when he was suppose to be a top 5 pick), and has a decent outing getting WR's. Outside of that, he hasn't drafted that great.

Your observations are a bit ridiculous. College has played well at guard. Spitz is better than wells...yeah, it couldn't be that...it is the nebulous and lucky...just plays better with him.

Sitton and barbre have both shown improvement. Only those with an agenda would dispute that.

[retailguy]

The biggest complaint isn't just LT - it's that TT has failed, in 5 years, to replace the OL.

Say what you want about Spitz, College, and even Sitton: They are getting beat a crap ton as well. College has sucked at almos every position we have played him at, Spitz isn't even a better center then Wells, but the line just plays better overall with him out there. Sitton is young, but is getting beat, and Barbre has done nothing to make you think he has a future on this OL.

In short, the entire OL sucks, not just the backup LT situation. Two great guards left ages ago, and we have yet to replace them, and all we have been doing is telling our best center, wells, that even though you were good the last two seasons spitz has to play.

Just saying, TT has a mess overall at the OL area, and it falls squarly on him and poor drafting/FA signings for the entire line. Yeah, he got a good QB (people forget that Rodgers sort of fell into his lap at like, slot 24 when he was suppose to be a top 5 pick), and has a decent outing getting WR's. Outside of that, he hasn't drafted that great.

Your observations are a bit ridiculous. College has played well at guard. Spitz is better than wells...yeah, it couldn't be that...it is the nebulous and lucky...just plays better with him.

Sitton and barbre have both shown improvement. Only those with an agenda would dispute that.

You know, I really don't understand why you've got to attack everyone. The Packers OL stinks, and it has stunk for the better part of 4 years now.

The fact that his solution is different from my solution, which is different than your solution shouldn't matter.

I just don't understand why the admin puts up with you Tyrone. You've got to pointlessly argue with everyone about trivial minor shit.

[cheesner]

Ty has read repeatedly that TT doesn't sign free agents. Ty isn't convinced that is true.

Klemm, Pickett, Walker, Manual, roman, chillar, smith, woodson...not to mention free agents that weren't vets..guys like Lee.

So, exactly how many free agents should he be signing a year? Because it certainly seems that the argument is that we need to sign them regardless of how good they are...otherwise ty can't understand has we signed crappy Klemm and crappy Manual and crappy Smith.
It isn't necessarily the number of FAs, its that TT is cheap and should spend more.

Even if they signed Joe Smith OT who was cut by the Raiders 2 years ago, if TT signed him to $8m/year, he will have spent the money and the Packers will be a much better team.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

The biggest complaint isn't just LT - it's that TT has failed, in 5 years, to replace the OL.

Say what you want about Spitz, College, and even Sitton: They are getting beat a crap ton as well. College has sucked at almos every position we have played him at, Spitz isn't even a better center then Wells, but the line just plays better overall with him out there. Sitton is young, but is getting beat, and Barbre has done nothing to make you think he has a future on this OL.

In short, the entire OL sucks, not just the backup LT situation. Two great guards left ages ago, and we have yet to replace them, and all we have been doing is telling our best center, wells, that even though you were good the last two seasons spitz has to play.

Just saying, TT has a mess overall at the OL area, and it falls squarly on him and poor drafting/FA signings for the entire line. Yeah, he got a good QB (people forget that Rodgers sort of fell into his lap at like, slot 24 when he was suppose to be a top 5 pick), and has a decent outing getting WR's. Outside of that, he hasn't drafted that great.

Your observations are a bit ridiculous. College has played well at guard. Spitz is better than wells...yeah, it couldn't be that...it is the nebulous and lucky...just plays better with him.

Sitton and barbre have both shown improvement. Only those with an agenda would dispute that.

You know, I really don't understand why you've got to attack everyone. The Packers OL stinks, and it has stunk for the better part of 4 years now.

The fact that his solution is different from my solution, which is different than your solution shouldn't matter.

I just don't understand why the admin puts up with you Tyrone. You've got to pointlessly argue with everyone about trivial minor shit.

Attack? i said observation is a bit ridiculous..and it is. And, again. Look in the mirror. You attack me constantly. Guess your response to my Jones post was good natured.

Pointlessly? You think college sucks. You think Spitz is worse than wells. You think that that sitton and barbre haven't shown improvemment.

The packer line has stunk for 4 years. It may not be good, but stink is way over the top. This year it certainly has.

Please fee free to ignore my posts and threads. I'm sure the posters are quite capable of posting for themselves and dont' need your help.

[pbmax]

The biggest complaint, and the only valid one in my opinion, is that TT left the Packers without a viable second option at LT, when it was obvious that Clifton was far from a sure thing healthwise. And that the option he did leave, Colledge, requires the Packers to go back to shuffling the OL...not to mention that Colledge might well be just unable to play LT.

The question that TT critics need to address, then, is what FA options did TT have for getting a reserve LT? Who were the FA backup LTs he chose not to pursue, and what are they doing now? I confess that I don't have any recollection of what the OL free agency market was like last spring and this summer and couldn't answer this question myself.

Overall I find the failure to put together a high quality OL to be the biggest disappointment of the TT era. But I tend to think the blame falls on player development (and thus reflects badly on coaching staff) rather than on TT's refusal to go out and buy OL depth. Dependable LTs just don't hit the FA market.

Well, off the top of my head (offensive tackles, not just LT's, I'm way too lazy for that):

Levi Jones
Orlando Pace
Stacy Andrews
Matt Birk
Jordan Black
George Foster
Jordan Gross - franchise? can't remember
Pete Kendall
Vernon Carey
Mike Goff
Chris Gray
Mark Tauscher
Seth McKinny
Jon Runyan
Tra Thomas
Fred Weary
Jon Welbourn
Kirk Chambers
Duke Preston - remember him?

Ok, I got the 1st 5, then I looked it up....

Also - Eagles traded for starting LT Jason Peters from Buffalo....

One other beef - Last season, we traded Williams - (I am fine with that). However, before training camp is even over, we have legal issues with Jolly, a back injury with Harrell, and something else, that I can't remember? KGB, maybe? Yet, we sought out ZERO help, even after Jenkins went down.

Can we blame him for that too, Hoosier? :wink:
You have a few Guards (Kendall) and a Guard-Center in there (Preston). Even if they have downs at Tackle, they aren't realistic prospects.

[sharpe1027]

Well, off the top of my head (offensive tackles, not just LT's, I'm way too lazy for that):

Levi Jones
Orlando Pace
Stacy Andrews
Matt Birk
Jordan Black
George Foster
Jordan Gross - franchise? can't remember
Pete Kendall
Vernon Carey
Mike Goff
Chris Gray
Mark Tauscher
Seth McKinny
Jon Runyan
Tra Thomas
Fred Weary
Jon Welbourn
Kirk Chambers
Duke Preston - remember him?

Ok, I got the 1st 5, then I looked it up....

Also - Eagles traded for starting LT Jason Peters from Buffalo....

One other beef - Last season, we traded Williams - (I am fine with that). However, before training camp is even over, we have legal issues with Jolly, a back injury with Harrell, and something else, that I can't remember? KGB, maybe? Yet, we sought out ZERO help, even after Jenkins went down.

Can we blame him for that too, Hoosier? :wink:

Agreed, any team that signed one or more of the palyers on that list would be better off at backup LT. Anyone know what team signed Preston and Tauscher?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Certain posters believe because they have heard of the player they must be good.

Let's take a look at one player. Mr. George Foster. RELEASED this year by last year's worst team, the Lions. How bad do you have to be to get cut by the lions? Ok. Maybe they made a mistake. Foster then was signed by the Browns...this year's disaster, and couldn't make the team out of camp.

Hey, what about the Andrews fellow. You mean the one the Iggles signed for 6 years and 39 mill? Yeah, Ty..what about him? Oh, he was injured last year...but, they signed him anyway...and now he is on the bench cause of the injury and not knowing the playbook. That doesnt' sound like a good signing Ty. Prolly not,fair reader.

What about Vernon Carey? What about him? He has never left the Fins.

Tra Thomas, he is good, right Ty. Yeah, he is good. Well, why didn't we sign him. Well, fair poster, Mr. Thomas is a LT...we already have a LT. Also, fair poster, believe it not, some players don't wanna play here. Mr. Thomas turned down his own team, the iggles to sign with Jville. Why would he leave a good team like the iggles to go to Jville, ty...we suck like they suck..why not us. Cause Jville is near his home in Deland....family and all.

Orlando pace, ty. Orlando Pace. doesn't he play the same position as Cliffy? Yes, Ty..he does. Are you suggesting that we sign him, a player that missed 1.5 seasons...was cut by the Rams..and then signed for 15 mill for 3 years...to cut Cliffy, a guy who has missed 2 games in 5 years.

Jon runyan. has anybody signed him fair poster. If we sign him, does that make us smart or dumb? CW says dumb.

Jon Welbourn, ty...he played tackle, and RT. He would be a good signing ty, right. Well, mr. welborn played most of his career at guard, but did play RT for some crappy KC teams. But, was back at guard in 07. Well, ty, what's he doing now? Well, he has been outta the league since the Pats cut him in 08 training camp. The Pats, really? yeah, the pats..you know, the team regarded as the model for bringing in savvy vets...being cost effective. That ain't good ty. No it isn't.

Kirk Chambers, ty. What about him. Is he good. Who knows? Who has seen him play? He has started 5 games in 32 with the Bills, before that he was outta football for a year. So, you are saying he could be the same as College or Moll at tackle. yeah, thats exactly what i'm saying.

[Bretsky]

Why don't you point out some of the successful free agent signings as well ?

The GM gets paid to make the calls; he is paid to either go after a well known free agent and pay the price (as evidenced by Woodson and Pickett) or he can bottom feed from the litter and have confidence in his ability to choose the right one (Roman/Manuel/Klemm/ Smith...etc)

If the GM feels he needs minimal help it's likely he will choose to bottomfeed, as TT has since year one. He seemed to get a solid hit with Chillar but has swung and missed with the rest the past few years.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Why don't you point out some of the successful free agent signings as well ?

The GM gets paid to make the calls; he is paid to either go after a well known free agent and pay the price (as evidenced by Woodson and Pickett) or he can bottom feed from the litter and have confidence in his ability to choose the right one (Roman/Manuel/Klemm/ Smith...etc)

If the GM feels he needs minimal help it's likely he will choose to bottomfeed, as TT has since year one. He seemed to get a solid hit with Chillar but has swung and missed with the rest the past few years.

If you are referring to my last post, then:

The talk was LT strictly. Ty didn't start that, but that is what it devolved into. Certain players were listed as free agents that we might have signed. Simply looked at the free agents at LT and examined them.

If you can find some good LT free agents that were signed...that we could have signed, feel free to post them.

[Bretsky]

Why don't you point out some of the successful free agent signings as well ?

The GM gets paid to make the calls; he is paid to either go after a well known free agent and pay the price (as evidenced by Woodson and Pickett) or he can bottom feed from the litter and have confidence in his ability to choose the right one (Roman/Manuel/Klemm/ Smith...etc)

If the GM feels he needs minimal help it's likely he will choose to bottomfeed, as TT has since year one. He seemed to get a solid hit with Chillar but has swung and missed with the rest the past few years.

If you are referring to my last post, then:

The talk was LT strictly. Ty didn't start that, but that is what it devolved into. Certain players were listed as free agents that we might have signed. Simply looked at the free agents at LT and examined them.

If you can find some good LT free agents that were signed...that we could have signed, feel free to post them.

ok; point taken

I thought you wre arguing against FA pretty much all together

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Why don't you point out some of the successful free agent signings as well ?

The GM gets paid to make the calls; he is paid to either go after a well known free agent and pay the price (as evidenced by Woodson and Pickett) or he can bottom feed from the litter and have confidence in his ability to choose the right one (Roman/Manuel/Klemm/ Smith...etc)

If the GM feels he needs minimal help it's likely he will choose to bottomfeed, as TT has since year one. He seemed to get a solid hit with Chillar but has swung and missed with the rest the past few years.

If you are referring to my last post, then:

The talk was LT strictly. Ty didn't start that, but that is what it devolved into. Certain players were listed as free agents that we might have signed. Simply looked at the free agents at LT and examined them.

If you can find some good LT free agents that were signed...that we could have signed, feel free to post them.

ok; point taken

I thought you wre arguing against FA pretty much all together

No. My original post is that TT has signed free agents...and many of them are just crap. Do folks just want to sign free agents because they are free agents? Manual, Smith, Roman, Preston, Walker...crap.

Top guys are top guys...woodson, pickett, etc. But the free agents we needed this year were a backup LT...and maybe a RT. But, without knowing TT's mind, how do we know he wasn't always going to sign Tausch.

A far better argument might be that of the free agents he signs, many don't turn out....but, that would actually require looking at all FAs and teams and comparing his success rate.

Waldo or Patler...got a project for you guys.

[esoxx]

Ty has read repeatedly that TT doesn't sign free agents. Ty isn't convinced that is true.

Klemm, Pickett, Walker, Manual, roman, chillar, smith, woodson...

TT signed Roman? :?:

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Ty has read repeatedly that TT doesn't sign free agents. Ty isn't convinced that is true.

Klemm, Pickett, Walker, Manual, roman, chillar, smith, woodson...

TT signed Roman? :?:

I don't know, maybe he didn't. Would it make a difference if he had? Would that be a feather in his cap?

[esoxx]

You seem to thrive on accuracy so thought I'd help you out.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

You seem to thrive on accuracy so thought I'd help you out.

Roman was a sherman. Doesn't change the point of the argument, actually strengthens it.

Sherman had some COLOSSAL failures in free agency, Hunt and Johnson to start.

[woodbuck27]

The biggest complaint, and the only valid one in my opinion, is that TT left the Packers without a viable second option at LT, when it was obvious that Clifton was far from a sure thing healthwise. And that the option he did leave, Colledge, requires the Packers to go back to shuffling the OL...not to mention that Colledge might well be just unable to play LT.

The question that TT critics need to address, then, is what FA options did TT have for getting a reserve LT? Who were the FA backup LTs he chose not to pursue, and what are they doing now? I confess that I don't have any recollection of what the OL free agency market was like last spring and this summer and couldn't answer this question myself.

Overall I find the failure to put together a high quality OL to be the biggest disappointment of the TT era. But I tend to think the blame falls on player development (and thus reflects badly on coaching staff) rather than on TT's refusal to go out and buy OL depth. Dependable LTs just don't hit the FA market.

Well, off the top of my head (offensive tackles, not just LT's, I'm way too lazy for that):

Levi Jones
Orlando Pace
Stacy Andrews
Matt Birk
Jordan Black
George Foster
Jordan Gross - franchise? can't remember
Pete Kendall
Vernon Carey
Mike Goff
Chris Gray
Mark Tauscher
Seth McKinny
Jon Runyan
Tra Thomas
Fred Weary
Jon Welbourn
Kirk Chambers
Duke Preston - remember him?

Ok, I got the 1st 5, then I looked it up....

Also - Eagles traded for starting LT Jason Peters from Buffalo....

One other beef - Last season, we traded Williams - (I am fine with that). However, before training camp is even over, we have legal issues with Jolly, a back injury with Harrell, and something else, that I can't remember? KGB, maybe? Yet, we sought out ZERO help, even after Jenkins went down.

Can we blame him for that too, Hoosier? :wink:

By the way this can be factored in. Cory Williams is one of ther bright spots on the Browns 'D'.

[Scott Campbell]

By the way this can be factored in. Cory Williams is one of ther bright spots on the Browns 'D'.



Do you have a source on that?