Poor Writers/Copy Editors

[Fritz]

Y'know, we all fuss and study the minutiae of being an NFL player. We expect them, after a couple years, to know their profession inside and out, to be technicians, to be students of the game.

Lately, I've been catching more and more errors in basic grammar and word use by the writers of the JSO and Press Gazette. There was a couple weeks ago the classic misuse of "its" instead of "it's." And now there's this in a GBPG article listing reasons for optimism. The writer is Mike Vandermeuse:

"No, there’s no such thing as a morale victory."

A morale victory? WTF? It's moral victory.

And before any of you jump on me for being picky, and that it doesn't matter because I should know what the guy meant, consider this:

You get into an accident and bang up your front fender. You've got a big deductible, but you want your car to look right, so you bring it into a body shop.

The shop calls you a few days later and tells you your car's ready. You get there and when you examine the work you see that the fender looks better but still has a dent in it. It's not fixed right.

So you point this out to the body shop guy. He turns to you and says, "Well, that's no big deal. You know what it's supposed to look like."

If you're going to make your living as a wordsmith, then know your craft.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I agree. I think it's a generational thing. I'm astounded by the grammatical errors in major newspapers and wire services.

[SkinBasket]

Everyone relies on spellcheck now, not just us idiots. Reading is hard. You have to pay attention and move your eyes around and stuff. Unless someone can do it while making a phone call or listening to their iTunes or playing bejeweled, they consider it a waste of time. Electronic multitasking is our new opium.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Fritz,

While you are correct about the common usage, "moral victory" actually makes no sense. There is nothing to do with morals or ethics in a win or a loss.

There seems to be a paradigm shift regarding usage, and that "morale" is being substituted because it actually makes sense. I've seen this usage on other sites, and have also run across this discussion.

So, you should actually be happy that we are finally getting rid of improper usage. :lol:

[bobblehead]

I can take this hole (yes, that is on purpose :P) thing a step further.

I'm the first one to rag on someone who wants to play spelling police on a blog where we are typing fast and furious and not proof reading out stuff, but I had an experience with one of my first jobs.

First memo from the top brass started like this:

"We would like to thank you all for your patients during this difficult time"

I turned to my boss and declared it was time to start paying me like a doctor dammit.

Second one went like this:

"You will then put half the items to you're left...."

Now again, I bag on know it alls on blog sites who get wood by pointing out a spelling error or typo, but if you are top brass sending a memo down to the peons ffs get a proofreader. The second one is especially egregious because it takes a conscious effort

[Fritz]

Fritz,

While you are correct about the common usage, "moral victory" actually makes no sense. There is nothing to do with morals or ethics in a win or a loss.

There seems to be a paradigm shift regarding usage, and that "morale" is being substituted because it actually makes sense. I've seen this usage on other sites, and have also run across this discussion.

So, you should actually be happy that we are finally getting rid of improper usage. :lol:

I'm more interested in the common usage, which over time has resulted in speakers talking not about "morale victories" but "moral victories."

If Vandermeuse were speaking and used the term, I'd bet a fair amount of money he'd say "moral victory" and not "morale." My sense is not that the writer has picked up on this change of use, but that he doesn't know how to spell "moral."

[sharpe1027]

Fritz,

While you are correct about the common usage, "moral victory" actually makes no sense. There is nothing to do with morals or ethics in a win or a loss.

There seems to be a paradigm shift regarding usage, and that "morale" is being substituted because it actually makes sense. I've seen this usage on other sites, and have also run across this discussion.

So, you should actually be happy that we are finally getting rid of improper usage. :lol:

It makes sense to me. A team loses, but plays hard and does better than expected. The team learns that hard work pays off. They get a moral gain despite the loss.

Morale victory? What is that? The winner of a cheerleader competition? :lol:

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Fritz,

While you are correct about the common usage, "moral victory" actually makes no sense. There is nothing to do with morals or ethics in a win or a loss.

There seems to be a paradigm shift regarding usage, and that "morale" is being substituted because it actually makes sense. I've seen this usage on other sites, and have also run across this discussion.

So, you should actually be happy that we are finally getting rid of improper usage. :lol:

I'm more interested in the common usage, which over time has resulted in speakers talking not about "morale victories" but "moral victories."

If Vandermeuse were speaking and used the term, I'd bet a fair amount of money he'd say "moral victory" and not "morale." My sense is not that the writer has picked up on this change of use, but that he doesn't know how to spell "moral."

I think he knows how to spell. As i said, the common usage is changing. There seems to be a switch...i've noticed it as well..bleacherreport, etc.

Probably best if we go with morrall victory.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0901/superbowl.qb.worstgames/images/earl-morrall.jpg

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Fritz,

While you are correct about the common usage, "moral victory" actually makes no sense. There is nothing to do with morals or ethics in a win or a loss.

There seems to be a paradigm shift regarding usage, and that "morale" is being substituted because it actually makes sense. I've seen this usage on other sites, and have also run across this discussion.

So, you should actually be happy that we are finally getting rid of improper usage. :lol:

It makes sense to me. A team loses, but plays hard and does better than expected. The team learns that hard work pays off. They get a moral gain despite the loss.

Morale victory? What is that? The winner of a cheerleader competition? :lol:

Hardly. The team worked hard...and they lost. That certainly doesn't show that hard work pays off. Probably shows the opposite.

When we use moral stories like the tortoise and the hair or the grasshopper and the ant...we learn something. You don't learn anything like those lessons by losing.

Or, if you lose but achieve a victory elsewhere. Let's say in the 300. Leonidas and his men all die...definitely a loss, but since they will achieve fame, honor and a good afterlife..that might count as a moral victory.

An underdog losing a tightly contested game has nothing to do with morals or ethics. Everything to do with morale. They lost, but in the process improved their morale...spirits were lifted by the closeness of the loss.

Either way, doesn't matter to ty.

[Bossman641]

Fritz,

While you are correct about the common usage, "moral victory" actually makes no sense. There is nothing to do with morals or ethics in a win or a loss.

There seems to be a paradigm shift regarding usage, and that "morale" is being substituted because it actually makes sense. I've seen this usage on other sites, and have also run across this discussion.

So, you should actually be happy that we are finally getting rid of improper usage. :lol:

It makes sense to me. A team loses, but plays hard and does better than expected. The team learns that hard work pays off. They get a moral gain despite the loss.

Morale victory? What is that? The winner of a cheerleader competition? :lol:

Hardly. The team worked hard...and they lost. That certainly doesn't show that hard work pays off. Probably shows the opposite.

When we use moral stories like the tortoise and the hair or the grasshopper and the ant...we learn something. You don't learn anything like those lessons by losing.

Or, if you lose but achieve a victory elsewhere. Let's say in the 300. Leonidas and his men all die...definitely a loss, but since they will achieve fame, honor and a good afterlife..that might count as a moral victory.

An underdog losing a tightly contested game has nothing to do with morals or ethics. Everything to do with morale. They lost, but in the process improved their morale...spirits were lifted by the closeness of the loss.

Either way, doesn't matter to ty.

Since this is a topic about spelling and correct usage I had to do it. Sorry

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Not a problem. :oops:

[Fritz]

The tortoise and the hair? Didn't Skin do that thread in the garbage can??

[Packers4Ever]

The tortoise and the hair? Didn't Skin do that thread in the garbage can??


Here's one - how about the team was "defeeted" :roll: :D

[MJZiggy]

Y'know, we all fuss and study the minutiae of being an NFL player. We expect them, after a couple years, to know their profession inside and out, to be technicians, to be students of the game.

Lately, I've been catching more and more errors in basic grammar and word use by the writers of the JSO and Press Gazette. There was a couple weeks ago the classic misuse of "its" instead of "it's." And now there's this in a GBPG article listing reasons for optimism. The writer is Mike Vandermeuse:

"No, there’s no such thing as a morale victory."

A morale victory? WTF? It's moral victory.

And before any of you jump on me for being picky, and that it doesn't matter because I should know what the guy meant, consider this:

You get into an accident and bang up your front fender. You've got a big deductible, but you want your car to look right, so you bring it into a body shop.

The shop calls you a few days later and tells you your car's ready. You get there and when you examine the work you see that the fender looks better but still has a dent in it. It's not fixed right.

So you point this out to the body shop guy. He turns to you and says, "Well, that's no big deal. You know what it's supposed to look like."

If you're going to make your living as a wordsmith, then know your craft.

Fritz, you know how I feel about these things, so :bow:

Ty, the usage isn't changing. The cliché is "moral victory" and if you're going to use such overused verbiage professionally you may as well get it right. I find stupid mistakes like that all the time and it drives me nuts. Writing is how these people make their living. This is what they get paid for. They don't put up with accountants and mathematicians using the wrong numbers, why is it not a big deal for a writer to screw up my language? Is it ok for a receiver to run the wrong route and just say "well, you know where I was supposed to go.

Max, it can't be a generational thing because that would make me old and that just won't do.

[HowardRoark]

Fritz,

While you are correct about the common usage, "moral victory" actually makes no sense. There is nothing to do with morals or ethics in a win or a loss.

There seems to be a paradigm shift regarding usage, and that "morale" is being substituted because it actually makes sense. I've seen this usage on other sites, and have also run across this discussion.

So, you should actually be happy that we are finally getting rid of improper usage. :lol:

What would Gandhi say.

[MichiganPackerFan]

Fritz, you know how I feel about these things, so :bow:

Ty, the usage isn't changing. The cliché is "moral victory" and if you're going to use such overused verbiage professionally you may as well get it right. I find stupid mistakes like that all the time and it drives me nuts. Writing is how these people make their living. This is what they get paid for. They don't put up with accountants and mathematicians using the wrong numbers, why is it not a big deal for a writer to screw up my language? Is it ok for a receiver to run the wrong route and just say "well, you know where I was supposed to go.

Max, it can't be a generational thing because that would make me old and that just won't do.

Very well said, Zigs

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Ty, the usage isn't changing.

google shows 25% results for morale. plenty of uses of morale. Evidence and articles on using morale show a change. wwww.sportsjournalist.com

Sorry, disagree.

[MJZiggy]

You say this as we're decrying the poor usage in sports articles, yet you cite sports articles and bloggers that show up on google as your evidence? Because more people are misusing it doesn't mean the other 75% don't think those people are idiots.

It requires users to actually know WHAT a moral victory is before they can use it properly. It's an old cliché.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

You say this as we're decrying the poor usage in sports articles, yet you cite sports articles and bloggers that show up on google as your evidence? Because more people are misusing it doesn't mean the other 75% don't think those people are idiots.

It requires users to actually know WHAT a moral victory is before they can use it properly. It's an old cliché.

I posted a link where journalists are discussing the usage. Therefore, there is a discussion going on..therefore a paradigm shift can be going on.

You are assuming poor usage, whereas it could be a decision being made. Pretty hard to imagine that both the writer and editor are both unaware or misusing.

As for the 75% thinking idiot..that is a big assumption, and who cares about that as well. 75% of america uses irregardless. You can't have it both ways.

Sorry, but i disagree.

[MJZiggy]

1. No you didn't.

2. You obviously don't understand what a moral victory is. And if you're quoting journalists discussing language as a source in a thread in which the issue is that journalists don't know what they're doing with the language, it kinda makes me wonder if you're losing your touch. (or your sledgehammer, however you want to see it.)

[Tyrone Bigguns]

1. No you didn't.

2. You obviously don't understand what a moral victory is. And if you're quoting journalists discussing language as a source in a thread in which the issue is that journalists don't know what they're doing with the language, it kinda makes me wonder if you're losing your touch. (or your sledgehammer, however you want to see it.)

1. What do you call bleacherreport, sportsjournalists, etc.

2. No, you don't understand. There are many discussions going on that the cliche doesn't work...that there is no such thing as a moral victory...that morale victory actually works better. I posted, as have others, that there is no such thing as moral victory..and gave a detailed reasoning. Please don't insult me by stating i don't understand what it is.

3. If you can't see that the internet has facilitated more discussion on this, and that it is possible to change a cliche then what is the point. the internet has allowed way more conversation on standards and practices than ever before.

You start from an assumption that the journalists are making a mistake an don't know it. You would need to prove that.

I start from a position that they are well aware of the stupidity of the cliche and are now working on changing it...as they multiple discussions i've seen on it.....including sportsjournalist(s).com. My position is buttressed by more than yours.

It is more fun for you to believe they are stupid and that you are catching them.

Sorry, i disagree.

[MJZiggy]

You really don't know what a moral victory is do you?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

You really don't know what a moral victory is do you?

Did you read my posts? My god, i gave 2 long detailed explanations of why moral victory doesn't work.

There is NOTHING moral about losing a football game. Ethics and morals aren't involved.

[MJZiggy]

You gave a description of why you think "morale" works better from a literal, linguistic standpoint but the reasoning doesn't match what a moral victory is. You didn't define it.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

You gave a description of why you think "morale" works better from a literal, linguistic standpoint but the reasoning doesn't match what a moral victory is. You didn't define it.

Really? What was the point of the tortoise and hair..and leonidas? :oops:

[MJZiggy]

Never mind. I'm not going to get into an endless battle with you when you don't know what you're fighting about.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Never mind. I'm not going to get into an endless battle with you when you don't know what you're fighting about.

I would say the same about you.

As i stated, sorry, i disagree.

[Bretsky]

Never mind. I'm not going to get into an endless battle with you when you don't know what you're fighting about.

I would say the same about you.

As i stated, sorry, i disagree.


Bretsky needs to remind Ty one of the keys to chick scoring
Ty might have a shot at the Zigster
Bretsky says let chicks win the meaningless arguments. ...also a very important key to a long lasting marriage

A happy chick who thinks she can win an argument rarely says no :lol:

[Rastak]

I gotta have the last word guy. If Zig kept responding this thread would grow to a half million posts.

[Iron Mike]

Y'know, we all fuss and study the minutiae of being an NFL player. We expect them, after a couple years, to know their profession inside and out, to be technicians, to be students of the game.

Lately, I've been catching more and more errors in basic grammar and word use by the writers of the JSO and Press Gazette. There was a couple weeks ago the classic misuse of "its" instead of "it's." And now there's this in a GBPG article listing reasons for optimism. The writer is Mike Vandermeuse:


His name's actually spelled Mike Vandermause.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/99999999/PKR04/60712075&theme=PKRVandermause&template=theme

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Never mind. I'm not going to get into an endless battle with you when you don't know what you're fighting about.

I would say the same about you.

As i stated, sorry, i disagree.


Bretsky needs to remind Ty one of the keys to chick scoring
Ty might have a shot at the Zigster
Bretsky says let chicks win the meaningless arguments. ...also a very important key to a long lasting marriage

A happy chick who thinks she can win an argument rarely says no :lol:

All true.

However, once scoring has been ruled out...game on. Zig does not favor ty, she calls fritz a hottie. :lol:

[MJZiggy]

And she'll never live it down, will she?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

And she'll never live it down, will she?

you really think i would carry a grudge. C'mon. Just teasing.

You werent' interested in Ty long before calling fritz a hottie.

Ty sees both fritz and ty losing out to snake. Don't know why, but something about you screams ATM. :wink:

[MJZiggy]

And she'll never live it down, will she?

you really think i would carry a grudge. C'mon. Just teasing.

You werent' interested in Ty long before calling fritz a hottie.

Ty sees both fritz and ty losing out to snake. Don't know why, but something about you screams ATM. :wink:

Dunno, Ty gave up and Fritz is taking dives in the fifth. Guess he doesn't realize he's $100 and an hour flight time away. Snake could wind up the only option. (need long, hot shower with disinfecting body wash--perhaps a bath in hand sanitizer or rubbing alcohol)

[HowardRoark]

I'll settle for a morel victory next year.

http://mediaenvironment.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/morel1.jpg

[Tyrone Bigguns]

And she'll never live it down, will she?

you really think i would carry a grudge. C'mon. Just teasing.

You werent' interested in Ty long before calling fritz a hottie.

Ty sees both fritz and ty losing out to snake. Don't know why, but something about you screams ATM. :wink:

Dunno, Ty gave up and Fritz is taking dives in the fifth. Guess he doesn't realize he's $100 and an hour flight time away. Snake could wind up the only option. (need long, hot shower with disinfecting body wash--perhaps a bath in hand sanitizer or rubbing alcohol)

Gave up? Jesus, woman, even the most chaste victorian women gave their suitor a signal.

Think "A room with a view".....just to hold your hand would sustain me!!!

But, knowing that you would consider ATM renews Ty's passion!!!

[Administrator]

this is no longer football related, but a mostly interesting discussion. carry on in the romper room!

[Iron Mike]

this is no longer football related, but a mostly interesting discussion. carry on in the romper room!

Kewl. As long as you leave my sig alone. :wink: