Clifton = Done

[red]

it looks like the gas might finally be out of his tank

he was having a very bad game before getting reinjured, which looked serious

if the injury is serious it might be a situation like tauscher last year

clifton might have played his last game today as a packer

[MJZiggy]

I don't know about that, but I just hope TJ can take care of business. He may have just tweaked the already injured ankle.

[Jimx29]

that's ok. TT has allot of errrm.........never mind

[retailguy]

I don't know about that, but I just hope TJ can take care of business. He may have just tweaked the already injured ankle.


Have you ever reinjured an ankle? This one could last for a while...

[MOBB DEEP]

Redic title! I thought Cliffy was out for year :x

[MJZiggy]

I don't know about that, but I just hope TJ can take care of business. He may have just tweaked the already injured ankle.


Have you ever reinjured an ankle? This one could last for a while...

Yes, I have, but I'm not putting the kind of force on the legs that Cliffy does just by existing.

[BallHawk]

that's ok. TT has allot of errrm.........never mind

Compared to other GMs who have stacked their teams with awesome 2nd string Left Tackles. :roll:

[red]

that's ok. TT has allot of errrm.........never mind

Compared to other GMs who have stacked their teams with awesome 2nd string Left Tackles. :roll:

believe it or not

not every GM has managed to assemble the worst o-line in the nfl

starting tackles or there backups usually don't give up 4 sacks a game

these guys are getting schooled at an unprecedented level, something is bigtime wrong. either its bad coaching, bad players, or a bad job by the gm. or all three. but our protection is an absolute joke right now

[red]

that's ok. TT has allot of errrm.........never mind

Compared to other GMs who have stacked their teams with awesome 2nd string Left Tackles. :roll:

believe it or not

not every GM has managed to assemble the worst o-line in the nfl

starting tackles or there backups usually don't give up 4 sacks a game

these guys are getting schooled at an unprecedented level, something is bigtime wrong. either its bad coaching, bad players, or a bad job by the gm. or all three. but our protection is an absolute joke right now

[retailguy]

that's ok. TT has allot of errrm.........never mind

Compared to other GMs who have stacked their teams with awesome 2nd string Left Tackles. :roll:

Most GM's do have a backup LT that has more than 1/2 game of experience. Our backup LT got traded for an equivalent safety to the one we cut.

[Fritz]

that's ok. TT has allot of errrm.........never mind

Compared to other GMs who have stacked their teams with awesome 2nd string Left Tackles. :roll:

believe it or not

not every GM has managed to assemble the worst o-line in the nfl

starting tackles or there backups usually don't give up 4 sacks a game

these guys are getting schooled at an unprecedented level, something is bigtime wrong. either its bad coaching, bad players, or a bad job by the gm. or all three. but our protection is an absolute joke right now

Okay, before the chatter was that Thompson had absolutely failed to get a left tackle of the future to replace Clifton if he gets hurt...now Cifton being the left tackle is also Thompson's fault after Cliffy has a crap game....

I'm unhappy with the offensive line. They looked like crap until the last four minutes of the game.

But please, get your criticism right.

[pbmax]

that's ok. TT has allot of errrm.........never mind

Compared to other GMs who have stacked their teams with awesome 2nd string Left Tackles. :roll:

believe it or not

not every GM has managed to assemble the worst o-line in the nfl

starting tackles or there backups usually don't give up 4 sacks a game

these guys are getting schooled at an unprecedented level, something is bigtime wrong. either its bad coaching, bad players, or a bad job by the gm. or all three. but our protection is an absolute joke right now
You are not looking at the worst line in the NFL. One of the worst pass blocking? Possibly. But there are 14 teams giving up sacks at a faster rate than this line.

[retailguy]

that's ok. TT has allot of errrm.........never mind

Compared to other GMs who have stacked their teams with awesome 2nd string Left Tackles. :roll:

believe it or not

not every GM has managed to assemble the worst o-line in the nfl

starting tackles or there backups usually don't give up 4 sacks a game

these guys are getting schooled at an unprecedented level, something is bigtime wrong. either its bad coaching, bad players, or a bad job by the gm. or all three. but our protection is an absolute joke right now

Okay, before the chatter was that Thompson had absolutely failed to get a left tackle of the future to replace Clifton if he gets hurt...now Cifton being the left tackle is also Thompson's fault after Cliffy has a crap game....

I'm unhappy with the offensive line. They looked like crap until the last four minutes of the game.

But please, get your criticism right.

I guess Red balances out the "Ted can do no wrong perspective".

[red]

that's ok. TT has allot of errrm.........never mind

Compared to other GMs who have stacked their teams with awesome 2nd string Left Tackles. :roll:

believe it or not

not every GM has managed to assemble the worst o-line in the nfl

starting tackles or there backups usually don't give up 4 sacks a game

these guys are getting schooled at an unprecedented level, something is bigtime wrong. either its bad coaching, bad players, or a bad job by the gm. or all three. but our protection is an absolute joke right now
You are not looking at the worst line in the NFL. One of the worst pass blocking? Possibly. But there are 14 teams giving up sacks at a faster rate than this line.

i don't get what you're saying pb

packers had given up the most sacks coming into today, with a bye thrown in

i guess i don't know what you're looking at

yeah yeah fritz, don't try and correct me when i'm ranting

[bobblehead]

I think with Lang in at LT MM feels he has to run more...this could work out to our advantage. At one point I think in the 3rd quarter yet we were up 26-0 and we passed something like 8 or 9 straight times down the field until we gave up a sack/fumble in the redzone....ya think a running play MIGHT have been in order??

[pbmax]

that's ok. TT has allot of errrm.........never mind

Compared to other GMs who have stacked their teams with awesome 2nd string Left Tackles. :roll:

believe it or not

not every GM has managed to assemble the worst o-line in the nfl

starting tackles or there backups usually don't give up 4 sacks a game

these guys are getting schooled at an unprecedented level, something is bigtime wrong. either its bad coaching, bad players, or a bad job by the gm. or all three. but our protection is an absolute joke right now
You are not looking at the worst line in the NFL. One of the worst pass blocking? Possibly. But there are 14 teams giving up sacks at a faster rate than this line.

i don't get what you're saying pb

packers had given up the most sacks coming into today, with a bye thrown in

i guess i don't know what you're looking at

yeah yeah fritz, don't try and correct me when i'm ranting
Packers are top five in pass attempts last I checked. That is why rather than a total number, looking at the RATE of sacks is more instructive.

Then, when you take out coverage sacks, that lowers the 20 total further. For numbers available as of last week, Packers allowed sacks 5.7 % of the time. That put them 14th in the league.

The NFL average is 6.3%.

More troubling for me, were the protection calls. Then the run game until the fourth (looked fine in the fourth but Lions might have been gassed).

[red]

that clears things up

are you also taking out coverage sacks for all the other teams?

[pbmax]

that clears things up

are you also taking out coverage sacks for all the other teams?
Yes, or more precisely, the Football Outsiders are.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

[red]

good stuff then pb

[Packers4Glory]

i really thought this would be a more balanced game, especially w/ the injuries to Detroits defense. I really didn't expect to run the ball so ineffectively early and have to rely on the pass, and if A-rod threw for a lot of yards it would be due to several big plays.

Cleveland can't stop the run to save their lives. If we aren't running the ball down their throat, then something is seriously screwed.

Hope Lang can step up and learn on the fly. at this point I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up being one of the best and most steady out of this group of lineman.

[red]

hold on, i don't have a clue where their getting their info from

they have us down as only having 8 sacks through week 5

are they pinning the other 12 on rodgers or did they just miss those

[red]

ok, that chart is very f'ed up

the run blocking columns are completely seperate from the pass blocking ones

if you look at green bay, they are ranked 14th for rushing. now if you keep going to the right you think you're reading the pass protection stats for the packers

but thats houstons pass protection in the same row as GB's run blocking. they are the ones with the 5.7% sack rate

you have to look for GB in the pass column, and you find them ranked dead last with a 12.6% sack rate. the next worst team is the bills with 10.9%

and the nfl average is still 6.3

so we are giving up twice as many sacks per attempt then the league average

PBMAX, YOU SIR, are wrong

[packerbacker1234]

it looks like the gas might finally be out of his tank

he was having a very bad game before getting reinjured, which looked serious

if the injury is serious it might be a situation like tauscher last year

clifton might have played his last game today as a packer

Situation like Tauch last year eh? Oh, you mean that vet RT that just signed with us last week?

Yeah, what a bad situation. A year possibly to heal up and get the career straight, then come back firing.

It's just a matter of time before Tauch is back at the RT spot.

[red]

it looks like the gas might finally be out of his tank

he was having a very bad game before getting reinjured, which looked serious

if the injury is serious it might be a situation like tauscher last year

clifton might have played his last game today as a packer

Situation like Tauch last year eh? Oh, you mean that vet RT that just signed with us last week?

Yeah, what a bad situation. A year possibly to heal up and get the career straight, then come back firing.

It's just a matter of time before Tauch is back at the RT spot.

i ment it as we might have witness the end of a packer favorite in greenbay (clifton is a free agent this offseason). if its serious, he might not be back this season, and might not be resigned. so it might have been his last game in green and gold

just like what a lot of people said last years when mark got hurt

[Lurker64]

Before we give the Packers the "worst offensive line in the NFL" award, we should take note of how some teams have a really bad offensive line.

I mean fans of the Bills, Steelers, Titans, Cardinals, Buccaneers, Eagles, Lions, Seahawks, Lions, and 49ers could all make some reasonable claim to the "worst" title.

The Packers offensive line has played bad this year, but a lot of other teams have had some bad OL play. Who's the worst? I dunno, but we're 3-2 so it's better to be us than to be the Titans.

[denverYooper]

Have no fear.

10 games from now, we'll be talking about how great a draft pick Twanger was because of his play at LT.

[pbmax]

ok, that chart is very f'ed up

the run blocking columns are completely seperate from the pass blocking ones

if you look at green bay, they are ranked 14th for rushing. now if you keep going to the right you think you're reading the pass protection stats for the packers

but thats houstons pass protection in the same row as GB's run blocking. they are the ones with the 5.7% sack rate

you have to look for GB in the pass column, and you find them ranked dead last with a 12.6% sack rate. the next worst team is the bills with 10.9%

and the nfl average is still 6.3

so we are giving up twice as many sacks per attempt then the league average

PBMAX, YOU SIR, are wrong
mea culpa. I read the chart wrong. That is piss poor from stem to stern.

[Bretsky]

ok, that chart is very f'ed up

the run blocking columns are completely seperate from the pass blocking ones

if you look at green bay, they are ranked 14th for rushing. now if you keep going to the right you think you're reading the pass protection stats for the packers

but thats houstons pass protection in the same row as GB's run blocking. they are the ones with the 5.7% sack rate

you have to look for GB in the pass column, and you find them ranked dead last with a 12.6% sack rate. the next worst team is the bills with 10.9%

and the nfl average is still 6.3

so we are giving up twice as many sacks per attempt then the league average

PBMAX, YOU SIR, are wrong
mea culpa. I read the chart wrong. That is piss poor from stem to stern.

so I guess we can all still agree that our OL sucks again and Aaron Rodgers is lucky to not be on the IR with the line we put on the field

[pbmax]

ok, that chart is very f'ed up

the run blocking columns are completely seperate from the pass blocking ones

if you look at green bay, they are ranked 14th for rushing. now if you keep going to the right you think you're reading the pass protection stats for the packers

but thats houstons pass protection in the same row as GB's run blocking. they are the ones with the 5.7% sack rate

you have to look for GB in the pass column, and you find them ranked dead last with a 12.6% sack rate. the next worst team is the bills with 10.9%

and the nfl average is still 6.3

so we are giving up twice as many sacks per attempt then the league average

PBMAX, YOU SIR, are wrong
mea culpa. I read the chart wrong. That is piss poor from stem to stern.

so I guess we can all still agree that our OL sucks again and Aaron Rodgers is lucky to not be on the IR with the line we put on the field
I was trying to tell RG this today in the game thread. Today's problems looked completely different. Barbre still kind of drifts in space too much, but once he got his hands on his guys, he was OK. Colledge looked much better at Guard. Didn't catch much of Sitton or Wells. Cliffy struggled with the refs, but was OK is pass pro. Didn't do much run blocking.

But the biggest problem was protection calls. We got overloaded once and missed interior blitzes at least twice I saw. Could going from Spitz to Wells have caused protection calling problems?

[digitaldean]

Today with 3/4 of the Lions starting D-Linemen out, we still gave up 5 sacks.

One was on A-Rod for holding the ball too long. Two were blitzers coming untouched up the gut. Cliffy was having a horrible day. He had 2 that were drive killers. Simple things like lining up on the line of scrimmage are inexcusable. The false starts? It was like he was up against a Pro Bowler D-Linemen not the scrubs Detroit threw in today.

Maybe Lang will have to sink or swim for now. Colledge got beat like a rented mule on the LT spot.

[pbmax]

McCarthy said 2 were protection call errors. Rodgers same thing, though its possible they were not talking about the same two plays.

One was Barbre no matter the call. He let a guy fly into the guard tackle gap even though the guy he was watching was not coming. They got faked on that one.

[red]

the other might have been on colledge

there was one play where clifton clearly had his man contained, but for some reason colledge slid over to help him out.

the blitz came right through the giant gap that colledge left

[pbmax]

the other might have been on colledge

there was one play where clifton clearly had his man contained, but for some reason colledge slid over to help him out.

the blitz came right through the giant gap that colledge left
Rodgers said he missed one on the left side that let one guy come free for a sack.

[rbaloha1]

Lang has good feet and recovery. Unsure if he can neutralize Aleen consistently though.

[Noodle]

ok, that chart is very f'ed up

the run blocking columns are completely seperate from the pass blocking ones

if you look at green bay, they are ranked 14th for rushing. now if you keep going to the right you think you're reading the pass protection stats for the packers

but thats houstons pass protection in the same row as GB's run blocking. they are the ones with the 5.7% sack rate

you have to look for GB in the pass column, and you find them ranked dead last with a 12.6% sack rate. the next worst team is the bills with 10.9%

and the nfl average is still 6.3

so we are giving up twice as many sacks per attempt then the league average

PBMAX, YOU SIR, are wrong

Kudos for PB to admit an error and move on. That's a pro move there.

Anyway, the pisser about this is that OL has been a work on progress for three or four friggin years, and I still don't see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Twice the league rate on sacks? Pathetic.

So where's Waldo and anyone else who said we'd be fine on the OL. As Patler might say, stats don't lie.

[Waldo]

I forget where, but I've seen pressures and QB hits stats.

One thing really stands out about our line. The pressure:sack ratio and QB hit:sack ratio of our team is really out of whack compared to the NFL average.

Aaron's QB hits aren't really out of line with league average, nor are the pressures allowed by our line.

They've just given up a lot of sacks.

Wrap your mind around that one.

Most of the time when they get through, Aaron goes down. And he rarely gets hit after he throws the ball. He hasn't really taken a shot like Urlacher delivered since Urlacher gave it to him.

[pbmax]

I forget where, but I've seen pressures and QB hits stats.

One thing really stands out about our line. The pressure:sack ratio and QB hit:sack ratio of our team is really out of whack compared to the NFL average.

Aaron's QB hits aren't really out of line with league average, nor are the pressures allowed by our line.

They've just given up a lot of sacks.

Wrap your mind around that one.

Most of the time when they get through, Aaron goes down. And he rarely gets hit after he throws the ball. He hasn't really taken a shot like Urlacher delivered since Urlacher gave it to him.
That would line up with pressure from multiple people at once. Also, I think this is a factor that has gotten worse. Later last season and this preseason, his timing and movement in the pocket looked much better. He is now moving into pressure again along with holding the ball. Look at all the sacks he has taken trying to retreat and go wide to avoid pressure. He is getting pursued and caught when he does that.

[Noodle]

Good points Waldo and PB.

One thing I have noticed about AR is that he tends to turn his back to a pressure and tries to spin away. When he does this, he can't see down field, and, more often than not, he gets caught.

He has to learn to move forward and to the side rather than turning around.

[packrulz]

I don't think Lang or Barbre are that bad, I'm willing to give them a chance, they just need more experience, have the TE or RB help block if needed. M3 calls too many pass plays, everyone knows it.

[rbaloha1]

I don't think Lang or Barbre are that bad, I'm willing to give them a chance, they just need more experience, have the TE or RB help block if needed. M3 calls too many pass plays, everyone knows it.

Agreed. Young and aggressive with good feet. Appear to be keepers.

[Waldo]

I tallied up the pressure stats for all stable QB situations. The stats did not include this weekend, but:

Sacks per hit:
(the % of the time that the QB's jersey gets dirty where a sack occurs, as opposed to a dumpoff, throwaway, good pass, poor pass, etc)
1. P Manning - 12.5
2. E Manning - 16.7
3. Ryan - 20.0
4. Brady - 20.8
5. Warner - 23.5
6. Collins - 25.0
7. Shaub - 25.0
8. Garrard - 25.6
9. Rivers - 30.3
10. Flacco - 30.4
11. Brees - 33.3
12. Romo - 33.3
13. Cutler - 36.4
14. Delhomme - 38.5
15. Palmer - 40.0
16. Cassel - 41.2
17. Edwards - 41.9
18. Favre - 44.0
19. Orton - 44.4
20. Hill - 44.4
21. Sanchez - 45.5
22. Campbell - 46.4
23. Big Ben - 50.0
24. Russell - 53.6
25. Rodgers - 60.6

Sacks Per Combined Pressures:
(the % of the time that a defense that pressures the QB is successful in sacking the QB with that pressure)
1. P Manning – 5.1
2. E Manning – 5.4
3. Brady – 8.2
4. Ryan – 9.1
5. Shaub – 10.8
6. Collins – 11.1
7. Warner – 11.8
8. Brees – 12.1
9. Garrard – 12.8
10. Flacco – 13.0
11. Cutler – 15.4
12. Romo – 16.1
13. Rivers – 16.1
14. Palmer – 18.5
15. Sanchez – 19.6
16. Orton – 20.5
17. Cassel – 20.9
18. Edwards – 22.2
19. Delhomme – 22.2
20. Favre – 23.9
21. Hill – 24.2
22. Campbell – 26.5
23. Russell – 26.8
24. Big Ben – 27.1
25. Rodgers – 31.7

Interesting sidenote, Rodgers is the least hit QB per attempt after the ball is thrown, by a good margin. If Aaron is hit, generally it is a sack.

Combined Pressures Per Attempt:
(the % of pass plays the QB is pressured on, a pressure being a sack, hurry, or hit)
1. Ryan – 17.6
2. P Manning – 21.3
3. Orton – 22.5
4. Brees – 25.2
5. Big Ben – 25.9
6. E Manning – 27.0
7. Collins – 28.3
8. Flacco – 28.6
9. Favre – 28.8
10. Brady – 28.8
11. Palmer – 30.3
12. Campbell – 30.6
13. Romo – 32.2
14. Sanchez – 35.4
15. Delhomme – 35.7
16. Cutler – 38.0
17. Rivers – 38.8
18. Shaub – 39.6
19. Warner – 40.5
20. Russell – 41.2
21. Hill – 41.3
22. Rodgers – 42.9
23. Cassel – 46.5
24. Garrard – 47.8
25. Edwards – 48.8

[sharpe1027]

I don't think Lang or Barbre are that bad, I'm willing to give them a chance, they just need more experience, have the TE or RB help block if needed. M3 calls too many pass plays, everyone knows it.

Our run game just sucks that badly. I'll take more sacks and a win over less sacks, more 1 yard run plays, and a loss.

However, Quinn Johnson looked as good in limited action. I saw him getting to the LBers and really moving some people a few times, even if Grant didn't follow him.

[Freak Out]

Quinn Johnson looked as good in limited action. I saw him getting to the LBers and really moving some people a few times, even if Grant didn't follow him.

:lol:

[bobblehead]

that clears things up

are you also taking out coverage sacks for all the other teams?
Yes, or more precisely, the Football Outsiders are.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

I don't care what some analyst says, our pass protection sucks ass most of the time. The fact that we don't even try to establish the run makes it worse than it might be. "we need to get that cleaned up"

[bobblehead]

I don't think Lang or Barbre are that bad, I'm willing to give them a chance, they just need more experience, have the TE or RB help block if needed. M3 calls too many pass plays, everyone knows it.

OK, Lang has been less than awful given he is a rookie and didn't get a ton of snaps to date.

Babre (who I was hoping would be good) has stunk like a dead fish. No defending him at this point. He is in his 3rd year, has been in the same offense the whole time and played RT all through camp. He isn't an NFL player. I would rather be lining Moll up at RT, he was better in limited time last season than Babre has been full time this year.

[Noodle]

Waldo, you find some great stats!

I think the fact that Rogers faces Combined Pressures per Attempt 42.9 percent of the time, putting him at no. 22 out of 25, suggests the suckness of the line.

The fact that Rogers eats the ball rather than tossing a dump off explains the high sack number.

So it's settled. The line needs to suck less and give up fewer combined pressures per attempt, and Rogers needs to do something besides eating the ball when he is pressured.

Both those issues can, I believe, be corrected through proper adjustment of pad level, so nothing to worry about here.

[rbaloha1]

Forget the stats -- the line is horrible in pass protection. Yes, AR holds the ball too long sometimes and sometimes calls incorrect protection schemes but the line is still responsible for the majority of sacks.

Even though we had better linemen in the past, BF made them look good pass protection with a quick release, quick deciphering of coverage and footwork in the pocket. Okay the interceptions also do not count as sacks.

[CaliforniaCheez]

Clifton will not be back with the Packers next year.

Thank you for your years of service but the end is here.
Your body can only handle football for so long.